OPEN 649 — PICK YOUR POWER X/Y. EXPERIMENT OVER.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

VOTE: Chrimi

Really psyched to be a part of this game, while lurking MS a lot of these players seemed fun to play with! Here's to a fun game.

Anyway, I think Chrimi in-chrimi-nated herself here. First in the draft? Suspicious.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Dunn is like the #1 player i wanted to play with. That fake claim in Peruvian Night Club Mafia was just... great.

That's the truth.

As for Chrimi, I was mostly joking about it being

suspicious

(the pun was hard to fit otherwise), but I think gauging Chrimi's alignment is key because she's a confirmed powerrole. I can elaborate more when I have a moment but I think Chrimi is necessary to push here.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

This is a pretty high information RVS stage. Even the vanilla townies know something about the gamestate here. I'm not expecting any "random" votes.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Well, everyone picked a role in the draft. So that means that vanilla townies know that someone above them in the draft picked the same role as them.

The only thing is, never really playing a high-power game, I don't really know what scum players would pick and what town players would pick. So it's kind of hard for me to use the information I have to know who I should suspect. So, Chrimi is the safest person to push because I know regardless of her alignment, she probably picked a powerful role. She needs to be scrutinized.

also zach and dunn in the same game is just icing on the cake

[gigabyteTroubadour]

I never thought I'd enjoy being wagonned this much lmfao

Not really sure how I'm reading everyone. I feel stupid for asking because I usually pick up on things like this, but are the people scumreading Firebringer able to explain what I'm not quite seeing yet?

[gigabyteTroubadour]

This isn't my first game ever, I have an idea of how things go down.

It's just usually I don't feel completely clueless? I'm going to hate myself forever if I force myself into the clueless newbie archetype here because like I have a lot of outside mafia experience lmao

Maybe once I get on a computer and the rush of starting a new game settles down I can try to make sense of this actually fun RVS :p

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Thanks Firebringer : ), I think it's completely reasonable to scumread for that but give me an hour or two (ie when i have time to think about this because i am busy) and I'll prove you wrong :/

ftr i'm not really liking creature because i have an idea of his meta and he seems kind of lurky, but maybe it's too early to say :/

[gigabyteTroubadour]

^ can't handle the pressure

OK so I just got back and I'm starting to reread the game like I said I would.

I'm only at L-4 and we're still in RVS. There isn't a lot of pressure on me, even if most of the posting playerbase has voted for me at some point. Can you walk me through where you got this tonal read from me?

You guys have a right to tease me by the way, my thoughts on creature are admittedly try-hard, especially because skimming through some games of his (since I was supposed to be in one with him) doesn't really give me a good sense of meta. I just feel like there's some passivity from creature. I really do think I was (and am) over-analyzing that, but off of the top of my head it was the only thing close to a read I had. And I don't think anyone was going to take me seriously, which is why 76 just feels weird to me. Where is it coming from? Who is believing me?

[gigabyteTroubadour]

I'd have to agree with Zach, sorry. Ümläüt also plopped an RVS vote and left. Why is it worse when Charloux does it?

[gigabyteTroubadour]

oh

i just kind of assumed it was an rvs vote but it seems like it's not? He voted for someone actively playing in the game and gave a townread – that's not an RVS at all

But it was

during

RVS. Which is why it's weird.

I think I'm getting it? I'm starting to agree with Dunn here now oops even if i'm completely off base here.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

I still want to vote Chrimi but I see where Dunn is coming from.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

I definitely think there's one scumplayer (and only one) in my wagon, if you want to believe that I'm town (which I am) then I think I'm being pushed as an easy mislynch because, as you said, my play is really shifty and is coming from a newbie. Sounds like a pretty prime lynchbait to me.

I'm starting with Creature because I want post 95 answered even if it looks really scummy (not sure why?). I want to know where he's coming from, and I feel like you especially should be agreeing with me here because of 83.

I think that you're probably town, along with Firebringer. I'm not sure about Vedith.

I'm interested in Chrimi's alignment. It's weird, but I think I have to be cryptic here about my reasons. I would move on to a better vote but the thing is I'm still trying to work out my wagon. I don't really have anything on Creature and I want to work with him.

I don't know about Charloux either. I agree with Dunn (who is my strongest townread but it's still not that strong yet) that his vote was weird but it doesn't warrant a vote from me.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

I mean if I'm not really sure about two people on my wagon's alignments I think there's a pretty good shot...? I'm not sure why that's weird.

@Creature, of course I'm

defensive

, why would I want to get lynched when I know I'm town?

[gigabyteTroubadour]

yeah i can definitely do this

VOTE: Creature

I really don't crack under pressure that easily (L-4?? really??), I play a lot of face-to-face mafia and I know how I react to pressure. That's why I want to know why Creautre thinks I am?

[gigabyteTroubadour]

yeah i can definitely do this

VOTE: Creature

I really don't crack under pressure that easily (L-4?? really??), I play a lot of face-to-face mafia and I know how I react to pressure. That's why I want to know why Creautre thinks I am?

Creature is towny I don't see a reason to be voting him right now


What's your reasoning?

Like the way giga tried to meta me so early in the game and everybody believed it.

This post is really scummy. I gave a shitty reason to be a bit doubtful of Creature as town, and yet he's under the impression that everyone bought it? I really need to know where this is coming from, it just seems really paranoid.

---

I'm describing how I play because I really do not know how else to explain why some of your posts bother me. It's just contradictory to what I know about myself and I want you to explain why you think I was unable to handle the pressure from that post?

And no please do not claim

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Me being a confirmed power role means I get killed tonight by the scum.

There are multiple protective roles, aren't you a good N1 target if you're a confirmed powerrole?

[gigabyteTroubadour]

2 barely gets picked, 1 is almost always picked by at least 1 person

5,6,7 and the like ar ebasically the worst numbers you could ever pick (lol zach)

did we literally do the same research lmfao

for reference i picked 2 too... for the same reason

i was debating 3 and i'm kinda pissed i didn't take it tho

But wait, we had the option to not take a role?

[gigabyteTroubadour]

WOW dunn THANKS FOR BUSSING ME!!

And tbqh i think picking a protective role is just a bad idea if you're first, but i don't want to get involved in pointless set-up spec because I don't think everyone made perfectly calculated and logical decisions here.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Ehhghh this is kind of veering into set-up spec territory, which isn't god-awful, but I really think we should just get reads the conventional way here. Maybe referring to them could help with associatives, but we shouldn't just be policy-lynching people because they're early on the list.

Skelda, besides his position in the draft, how are you scumreading Creature?

[gigabyteTroubadour]

*how are you reading Creature

ebwop

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Couldn't say it better myself

Maria, what's your read on Skelda?

[gigabyteTroubadour]

I picked you because I don't know how I read you nor Skelda, and quote 175 seemed to tell me that you had an opinion.

So a nullish scum read? I'm not sure I agree, I find it hard to believe scum would make an entrance like that, blatantly "steering us in the wrong direction" as you put it.

@Mod, KTS is not voting

[gigabyteTroubadour]

She gives off that innocent town appearance.

This isn't her first game though, and that's pretty easy to fake. If she has a completed game, I feel like she wouldn't have to explain why she doesn't want to lynch anyone (not sure if she means not vote or NL, both are bad but I think it's the former which isn't terrible?) Her response to Shadow_Step also pinged me in a bad way, which is why I wanted to poke at her a bit more.

VOTE: MariaR

@Zach, from what I've seen, this is just KTS's personality. He doesn't have any useful scum games (he has 1 but it's a weird set up). I'm kind of nulltown reading him for now I guess?

[gigabyteTroubadour]

I just read her ISO in her newbie and I'm getting cold feet too.

UNVOTE: MariaR

Like she apologized for whatever it was that got her scumread (didn't read whole game yet) and was legitimately confused about it too? She's acting very similarly. The PR claim seems unneeded but it sounds like frustrated town to me.

VOTE: Shadow_Step

More interested in this guy now that I'm having doubts. I didn't like the LAMIST comment, especially without a vote. It felt lazy and oppurtunistic and I want to look into it.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Oh thanks for unvoting me anything you need from me?

Actually, a lot, but nothing tough.

Any thoughts on the game state so far? Does anyone seem like likely scum to you? Anyone who's town? What did you think of the wagon that formed around you (especially its short lifespan)?

ok with that pedit you answered that one question but i'd like to know the rest

[gigabyteTroubadour]

OK maria is definitely town first of all, you really can't fake that "I feel manipulated!" when you're a newbie and I've felt it before.

I think your Dunn townread is good, gut reads like that are good places to start. I would like to know what you're doubting. Since you felt that your wagon was a reaction test, do you think it was planned? Just the way you talk about it makes me feel like you might and I want to know why?

[gigabyteTroubadour]

well i mean
she *is* a newbie, she has 1 completed game

[gigabyteTroubadour]

I feel like if I do and someone has meta on it my point is just gonna get shut down and yes that's my Main

I have a response to your response (I'm liking our conversation actually O:) but first

literally no one has meta on kts iirc? we were discussing this earlier

so if your gut says something just go for it.

That he was trying to reaction test me but then a lot of people were starting to vote me so it became very srs and I got scared

Makes sense actually? I'll mull it over.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

I feel like I'm limited to who I can scum read as in if I scumread someone who has a ton of meta like "NO THERE TOWN STOP" I just have to nod and shake my head yes or I'm scummy for doing it and it felt sorta like a reaction test for 2 reasons

This really should not stop you, but I understand why you're scared. We all come from different experiences in life and have different perspectives, and even our role PMs affect said perspectives. If you have an opinion on something, especially if it's something that no one else is seeing, why not go for it?

And, also on meta, it's a tool but I think a lot of people (myself included tbqh) rely on it too much. It has such a huge downside in that people can easily manipulate it by intentionally acting differently than normal. It can help if you don't understand where a player is coming from and want examples of how they think (good example here in where it could be helpful is KTS), but it's better to try to get reads from within the game through interactions.

If you want, I can walk you through my strongest read (townread on Zach), especially because you said you had trouble reading the people who were active during RVS so you can see what I mean here? Obviously you shouldn't just sheep me, but I

would

like to know if someone else agrees with me on it (and if not, what your thoughts on it are).

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Spoiler: Zach Townread

gT

I find your stance on Chrimi kinda bad. Sure, the first draft pick probably got a good role but that is in no way connected to whether or not the slot rolled scum.

Why are you going for this instead of a player who's actually posted in the game? Because I'm sure there's at least one scum in the people who have appeared in-thread so far. Do you not feel like that is the case?

You're just like, acting kinda shifty so I think we should rectify this problem with a SWIFT NOOSE

ALL IN FAVOR?

I definitely think there's one scumplayer (and only one) in my wagon, if you want to believe that I'm town (which I am) then I think I'm being pushed as an easy mislynch because, as you said, my play is really shifty and is coming from a newbie. Sounds like a pretty prime lynchbait to me.

I'm starting with Creature because I want post 95 answered even if it looks really scummy (not sure why?). I want to know where he's coming from, and I feel like you especially should be agreeing with me here because of 83.

I think that you're probably town, along with Firebringer. I'm not sure about Vedith.

I'm interested in Chrimi's alignment. It's weird, but I think I have to be cryptic here about my reasons. I would move on to a better vote but the thing is I'm still trying to work out my wagon. I don't really have anything on Creature and I want to work with him.

I don't know about Charloux either. I agree with Dunn (who is my strongest townread but it's still not that strong yet) that his vote was weird but it doesn't warrant a vote from me.

i can do creature tbh, giga

the lack of reaction you've had to your wagon kind of disappoints me I'm not sure what to get out of this

Climbs out of RVS hell

*pant pant* I think...I made it out alive...Hello everyone nice to meet you

HEY

you're not gonna just APPEAR and not give your thoughts.. DO YOU WANT DUNNSTRAL TO VOTE YOU?

I think I'm being pushed as an easy mislynch

This is scummy though

arrows are in the wrong direction LMFAO

and I wouldnt call that scummy cause I call myself an easy mislynch all the time!

gigabyte, I have that strange feeling you're being pretty defensive.

VOTE: Creature

(spoilered because it's a long quote train)

This conversation we had felt really genuine. Zach was scumreading me enough to make me his vote, but I felt his questioning of me felt like he was confused why Dunn was townreading me and wanted to poke at me to figure out my intentions. I gave my answer, even though it did end up looking scummy, and it changed Zach's views enough for me to jump onto the same wagon as me.

To me, it felt like A: he did not know my alignment, and B: he is willing to change his reads based on evidence and is genuinely intending to so. Both of those things should logically come from town. He

could

be scum manipulating me, but something about the posts at the time felt very honest to me. Thus, a townread coming from both gut and evidence.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

in case it's not clear that post is for maria p much, i didn't quote her and other posts came on top of me

[gigabyteTroubadour]

but strongest tr is a bit of a stretch

It's only D1, none of my reads are

that

strong. So comparatively it's the strongest, but he's not an innocent child here.

Mind telling me if there's something specifically that makes you less confident? Or is it just it doesn't impact you as much?

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Just doesn't impact me as super towny as it does you

Fair, I guess the read has to come from knowing my role PM for sure. But the important thing here is his motivation. Wouldn't it be better to stick to a pretty strong wagon (I was at like L-4 or 3) if you're mafia? Really the most important thing this game is discerning the "why"s of every post.

I'd actually recommend rereading the game and asking yourself who is genuinely trying to understand the other players? It's a lot more difficult (esp if the RVS is fun and you're busy laughing instead of thinking) than it might sound, but I want you to do this because I am pretty certain you are town, and having a townie with opinions is actually essential to our victory.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

131 really sounded like he was serious about getting me lynched, and even very early game votes can lead to a lynch. I think it's plausible that the lynch could have gone through, but I'm glad Zach was willing to work with me.

I don't think it's good practice to dismiss a vote as not serious. Otherwise there would be no purpose to RVS.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

If it was she would have attacked the players for voting her for weak reasons and rage, not put her hands up and say I give up lynch me if you please.

There's the difference between your play and my play, I didn't vote directly after saying that because I wanted to see how she reacts, the reaction was out of the blue aggressive and looked fake.

You're being incredibly closed minded here. People

don't

always act in the most logical way to advance their wincon. Putting myself into Maria's shoes by considering her experience and what I gathered from her personality here and in her last game, her giving up like that looks town, NAI if you really want to stretch it.

And, I voted her for that very reason right there initially.

Your push is really lazy if it's town. Somehow putting Skelda as her scumbuddy just for that defense also feels really lazy too?? At least you actually voted.

And there is no target behind Maria's back. She's a wifom nk at best.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

what's funny about shadow saying that there's a target on maria's back is that there is literally a confirmed powerrole based on the setup. and not only is that slot townread (i get the impression?), she's actually an experienced player and much more threatening to kill.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

I want to know what Dunn thinks since he followed my vote of you but I think 401 comes from misguided town.

VOTE: Creature

Especially because I've been liking your recent posting, KTS, I think I'm coming back here with you.

And, again Dunn, would love to know why you're townreading him?

[gigabyteTroubadour]

I would pref a creature lynch over shadow

I like neither, but I agree. What's your reasoning?

[gigabyteTroubadour]

I like a Shadow lynch, but I'm feeling a bit more iffy about it I guess?

Creature kind of did a similar thing with that list he had with all of the players and crossing them out. He even crossed out Pisskop after like two posts that weren't alignment indicative in the slightest? I wasn't sure how to bring it up and Skelda kind of did but it just looked so fake to me.

eh

VOTE: Shadow_Step

Idec Maria is conf town, and anyone that pushes her at this point is flat out scum.

This brought me back.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Brought you back to what?

Back to voting Shadow.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Didn't you spend the past 5 pages arguing that she was inexperienced?

I was talking about Chrimi, who is most likely a powerrole. Like, 99%. I didn't even know abstaining from the draft was an option and iirc that wasn't confirmed?

[gigabyteTroubadour]

@Giga I am confused because you didn't like either shadow and whoever but then you said "I will lynch shadow"?

I mean

I am scumreading both Shadow and Creature, and I figured if I was starting to hesitate then maybe I should go for a lynch I'm more confident in. It's fickleness and I realize that's bad.

But my vote is staying on Shadow now.

PEdit: Yes, I like neither as town.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

the vote in him was a PEdit I didn't bother to notate.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Who? KTS?

No, Creature.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

I'm starting to think I just misunderstood Creature.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Creature, why are you townreading Pisskop? Especially after two posts?

[gigabyteTroubadour]

I'm really wishy-washy on Creature. Can you case him? I'm leaning scum but I also think Shadow is hella opportunistic and is just trying to look consistent.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

What do you think about my 149 and his lack of an explanation of where 63 was coming from?

I definitely agree with your above post but it's not new information to me.

also part of why i'm wishy washy is that i think 139 was directed at me and i didn't answer it... it seems kind of reasonable?

I definitely have been scumreading Charloux so I could also go there.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

^that was for skelda

[gigabyteTroubadour]

I don't see why Charloux isn't a viable lynch, I'm considering it.

also @maria's posting

[gigabyteTroubadour]

they're both good lynches

[gigabyteTroubadour]

What is he even saying there? Nothing, he's just posting for the sake of posting.

this is what i was trying to say by "lurky"

like he's super passive

he was much more active and game-solving in the newbie with him I was supposed to be in (1715) but it's not really that strong of a meta. plus the fact it was a newbie (with... tojam as an ic) meant that he felt obligated to lead town.

Shadow and Charloux are definitely better lynches.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

i'm missing something...?

but actually i'm feeling better about a charloux lynch now, i guess someone who has shadow the hedgehog as their avatar and literally talks like him (i don't know i don't care about sonic) is probably going to be really edgy and... like that. it's believable but really awful lmfao

VOTE: Charloux

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Charloux has 4 votes.

zach make it 5

[gigabyteTroubadour]

I'm agreeing with Dunn for once

i feel like dunn is right more often than not when it comes between the two of u....... but that's just me

[gigabyteTroubadour]

If he claims VT, should we ask him what he picked in the draft?

[gigabyteTroubadour]

no scum is stupid enough to make half the player list his enemies by voting someone (Maria) who everybody treats as conftown.

VOTE: Charloux

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Actually 7 votes now? Hope there isn't a VI who will hammer right now or this game is over.

VOTE: Charloux

[gigabyteTroubadour]

oh shoot

[gigabyteTroubadour]

just ftr i hate fakehammering

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Charloux, how do you judge yourself as a player?

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Skill level below average, but i have my moments every now and then. Always try not to look too towny nor too scummy.

If you die, are you more likely to be lynched or NK'd? Or do you tend to survive?

[gigabyteTroubadour]

OK, then that line of questioning was nai.

Darn, I wanted to see where that train of thought would go.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

I don't understand what is going on in the heads of Pisskop, Fire and Zach so they are special category.

I feel pretty special to be honest.

meeeee toooooo

You're the most specialister out of everyone.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

It was a fact.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

UNVOTE: Charloux

I've been mulling it over for quite a bit, but I think my line of questioning actually did help me out here. Charloux is town, I have every reason to believe his claim.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Interesting well the other 2 people I would vote today a think wouldn't get votes so this is still my choice of lynch

You never know. Who are they?

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Can we either do something productive here

Sounds good to me.

VOTE: Vedith

I like Firebringer's ISO.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Sounds good to me.

VOTE: Vedith

I like Firebringer's ISO.

No one cares what you think, you're scum trying to save Charmeleon!

fuck, he's onto me!!!

[gigabyteTroubadour]

@giga I think Vedith is town here actually

Mind explaining why? I'm not really liking their ISO but it's mainly gut.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

@giga I think Vedith is town here actually

Mind explaining why? I'm not really liking their ISO but it's mainly gut.

VERYYYY strong gut and the way he acts feels

genuine

to me.

I don't know, it's like he still thinks it's RVS to me. Seems weird enough for me to poke at him.

Do you still think Charloux is scum?

[gigabyteTroubadour]

It could go either way at this point.

Maybe I'm overestimating the power of a rolecop, but I feel like if Charloux believes he's the kind of player who gets lynched day 1 as scum, wouldn't he plan to take Vengeful instead? I feel like from what he said about himself as a player that it's possible he took Universal Backup (he survives as a VT, so he can fly under the radar).

I guess if he

is

scum, then he knows that a partner of his took the UB/Rolecop slot and just claimed he didn't get it without being direct? That's really the only way I can see Charloux fakeclaiming.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

I think Skelda is town, but I could do Shadow again.

VOTE: Shadow_Step

[gigabyteTroubadour]

I think Firebringer earlier raised a good point about Shadow – his continued suspicion on Maria looks tryhard but in a fake way. To me, it's like he feels he has to look consistent and is now only on Skelda to make an excuse to vote someone else. I did say it was plausible for Shadow to be town and just have really bad opinions, but the move onto Skelda seems very strange to me.

I am interested in knowing what made Creature change his read on Skelda, I didn't pick up on it until it was pointed out.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

so if we're thinking Shadow is scum Vedith probably isn't.

Crap... I want to hear Firebringer's thoughts on this, I like both of them as scum candidates but there's actually things to analyze on Shadow's case.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Pot kettle black. Saying i have bad opinions when you yourself hav pathetic ones is rich.
Why is it strange?
You want me to sit on Maria the whole day?
There is clearly no interest in lynching her in spite of her being obvious scum so there is no point in voting her as of now.
You're reasons are terrible.

Of course my opinions are weak, it's early into D1 and I'm still trying to sort everyone out. I'm sure many people are still doing the same, hence why it's so easy for wagons to form in one direction and then another. I have nothing wrong with you calling my opinions pathetic because it's true.

If you mean that they're misguided or bad, then I'd beg to differ. Your Maria read is lazy and is not very open minded. Your comment in 261 wasn't really addressing anything about Maria – you just criticized her without really putting consideration into her motives. Why was it, as you put it, "LAMIST"? What does she gain from posting that, and why couldn't she have written that as town? I did agree with you that her response felt awkward, but after doing a quick metaread of her, that's just how she writes.

378 is an argument that's based off of stereotypes about how you think a townie thinks. People will react differently when pressured, and their alignment is not the only thing that impacts it. I don't know Maria personally, but her posting in this game and her last tell me that it is very likely for her to respond to pressure the way she did regardless of alignment. She didn't understand the arguments against her – how could she attack them? Of course, I'm not denying that this could come from a scum mindset. But you're ignoring the fact that this could just as well be coming from a townie.

If you want to talk about mindsets, what Mafioso is worried about being manipulated? It's the Mafia that

must

manipulate us (this is not a stereotype, unlike you believing that a townie has to fight to the death when being wagonned (which is arguably more of a scum thing to do anyway)), and her paranoia seems to only be focused on that very thing. If anything, the fear of manipulation is a newbie-towntell that I've seen called out several times and correctly. I know that in my first game, I felt it many times, such as when I was used by my IC as bait for a reaction test. Some experienced players can back me up here.

You moving onto Skelda is about as strange to me as Maria's response to calling you LAMIST (which, going back through her ISO, I don't think she even knew what that meant?). You've shown very little interest in Skelda. What, defending her in 301 suddenly means they're scumbuddies? You've said nothing about Ümlaut doing the same. Only now do you bring up a stronger case on Skelda, but it still started from a pre-flip association. If anything, the fact that others have been scumreading Skelda and the fact you've brought nothing to that table besides a pretty lazy association makes me think it's a

little

bit opportunistic.

---

There are people whose opinions I trust on the Skelda wagon now though, so I'm more willing to hear the argument against him? I've been null-townreading him mostly so I'm not seeing it. Still not fond of Shadow but he's not scumread #1.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

btw skelda has 4 votes

[gigabyteTroubadour]

I don't think anyone's explained to me why Skelda is scum. The Skelda wagon is so strange because I feel like everyone on it just telepathically agreed that Skelda is scummy but?? Where? Why? When?

It bothers me because I townread most of the people on it so I want to believe it's a decent wagon but I don't get it. Maria, I think, is the only person that explained it but I don't agree with what she said.

Also, Wake, KTS has almost no scum meta. I've

tried

.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

So from what I've heard MAP crumbed PR while at L1?

Not sure who map is. Chrimi and MariaR are confirmed powerroles but have not claimed, while Charloux is either a universal backup, rolecop, or vanilla townie/goon.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

...where did that Charloux stuff come from?

Since when was mariaR a confirmed pr

ok, confirmed isn't the right word, she just claimed a pr

Charloux also claimed at L-1.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

PE: I didn't claim shit.

You claimed that you took a slot. Meaning there are three roles you could be, six if you include alignment.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Aww, you're my hero. <3

Seriously though, I 100% agree obviously. There isn't a case against me. Maria's case wasn't good but I can accept that she believes it, but no way did that convince all of the other voters. They just hive-minded it up.

Well Shadow thinks that soft-defending Maria is a good reason to lynch you...

@Zach & Dunn, why Skelda? Did I miss something?

also considering sheeping the cop again

[gigabyteTroubadour]

I like disembodied deer souls. Especially if they come from New Jersey. We have a lot of those there. In all seriousness, I don't have much of an opinion on Skelda. I didn't care for his entrance but it felt too brazen to come from scum.

Charloux is town. Scum!Charloux had to have fakeclaimed what he picked, scum would never let him pick Rolecop. So I'm assuming he didn't fake claim because it means that someone above him is a rolecop in the scumteam (do scum have a use for Universal Backup? I keep saying rolecop bc I don't think so but...?)

[gigabyteTroubadour]

If you go back to the Charloux wagon I explain it.

Charloux, as scum, as a history of being lynched D1. He admitted it and his meta backs it up. I don't think he would pick a role that depends on surviving if he were scum.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

I guess it is. I still believe it.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Prod dodge, I have nothing to really add here.

My lynch pool seems pretty small compared to what I would want it to be. {Chrimi, Shadow, Creature, Vedith} in no particular order, but not only do I think it's unlikely Shadow and Vedith are together, having 4 options just feels like I'm handing out too many light/null-townreads. I still want to know what the case is against Skelda, I don't think that's been answered.

I'd dignify my openness to lynch Chrimi with a vote, but I want to see more content from her (or her slot replaced) first.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Zach, what made you change your mind on Chrimi?

[gigabyteTroubadour]

I even want to keep Creature alive for a bit to see if this is how he actually plays.

What about a meta dive...? What benefit is there to keeping a scumread alive?

Chrimi's lack of content doesn't help her case. Sure the game is full of bullshit, but there's never too much bullshit to where you can't siphon information and constantly shift your view of the gamestate.

In case it wasn't clear, I agree with this. Why were people townreading her in the first place? She's given us no content to work with.

he gives -4 fucks at all times (I give -6)

You needing to tell us this tells me it's false. You give at least 1 fuck.

HEY I FUCKING MEntioned lynCHING Charlizzle again too no one WENT for that....,aaaaaand I'm on the same vote

We can try that one again too

I still don't think Charlie Brown's roleclaim makes much sense with his meta if he's scum. But other than that I really have no reason to townread him

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Damn it, I missed the entire Chrimi wagon :C. No longer interested in pushing it, but I do want more activity from her slot. Since my lynch pool just got smaller and I'd prefer it to be exactly 4, I'm going to have to reconsider some of my reads.

@Dunn and anyone scumreading Skelda

, I really would like to know the case around him because he's one of my weaker reads and, since there's a lot going on around him it seems, probably the one I want to take a look at first.

Anyway, these might be shitty questions to ask, but what is exactly is the optimal strategy for a town neighborizer? Recruit people who have good opinions and are widely townread? Should town pick people for Chrimi or should we just let her do whatever? It seems like a big responsibility, actually. I kind of expected Maria to have picked it, especially considering the person who goes first in the draft usually picks Cop...

Sorry my activity and usefulness in this game has been kind of shoddy, I'm having a hard time finding a good point of entry and playing like I know I can. With my newbie just wrapping up and learning that I single-handedly lead the town to losing with my shitty reads, I'm a bit more hesitant to push and be as active as I want to. I'm going to be rereading the game tomorrow, so if you have any questions you want to ask me I'd be happy to answer.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

I could say why I didn't pick it but it's a huge hint to what my role is

I don't think you should claim.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

VOTE: Creature

I've stated my reasons before. They haven't changed much.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

no one cares about what you like

Creature and pisskop have been looking better in my eyes so that looks opportunistic from you.

I thought we were in the same boat with Creature! What made you change your mind, because he hasn't really done anything to make me change mine.

And, I

guess

I can see opportunism from Skelda?? I feel like there's a certain amount of confbias that comes from drawing that conclusion, though. I still have yet to see a case against Skelda.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Well, Creature has been looking less scummy, if I'm being objective I cannot deny that..

Could you be more specific? Like with quotes or events? Sorry I'm being annoying here.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

I just got back from a run and i'm sleepy can someone give me a tldr of what's going on

Not that much...

Shadow was completely wrong about the neighborizer being useless and some people argue it's a townslip, the Chrimi wagon stopped, and the pisskop and Creature wagons look like they're forming. Pisskop pressured Creature a bit, too. I'm anticipating another Skelda wagon starting, too.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

That makes a lot more sense, thank you. I'll probably take another look at his ISO when I get the chance to see if this'll move my vote. I'm not really sure where to go next, though, if I don't scumread him anymore.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

I've been really sick the past few days but low-key paying attention

I

still

do not see the scumreads for Skelda, but I also have no reason to really give him a strong townread. I've had a slight (slight) change of heart on Creature, so I will not vote him nor Skelda but I will also not defend Skelda's lynch. That may change if I take a look at the current votecount the next time Bins posts.

In other news, what's the town's general view towards Vedith? I have an unfinished case sitting in my drafts but I've felt too horrible to finish it, if he's not a viable candidate for today then I'm not sure if there's a point?

[gigabyteTroubadour]

I'd vote for Skelda for the sake of the deadline but I don't particularly trust some of the people on the wagon right now :/

he's done nothing to redeem himself but he's also done nothing to incriminate himself, so...? I'm OK with his lynch but he's far from my first choice. I want him to at least respond to what Zach asked him to, too.

UNVOTE: Creature

I thought I was on Shadow_Step so I kept my vote but I'm not really willing to lynch Creature anymore.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

So KTS/Vedith or Skelda/Dun?

VOTE: Vedith

still

not getting Skelda/Dunn, kind of agree with KTS/Vedith but I'm more sure of Vedith

i'm not really sure if casing is worthwhile though, i don't know if i can fight against the Skelda wagon and I was originally planning on just giving up and talking about vedith tomorrow but...?

we just need a lynch that doesn't suck completely today

[gigabyteTroubadour]

zach did you make that gif?

also if this were an mmo i'd def be a healer. but like. i would be too poor to afford the actual game, so i'd be forced to play the demo and be capped at level 20. until then, i am a leech to the party but i stay because of my charismatic attitude and interesting counterpoint to the group's general dynamic. obviously.

Skelda, if you come online soon, don't forget to claim what role pair you picked.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

you guys know he wasn't hammered right?

because i thought everyone knew but it doesn't look like it now...?

wagon is: Vedith, Shadow_Step, Firebringer, MariaR, Pisskop, KTS, and Zach. it's 8 to lynch. That's 7. I think I'm counting right.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Would it even be a quickhammer at this point? We got Skelda's last words, and I think the people on the wagon intend to stay on it.

VOTE: Vedith

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Oh so I'm not hammered. I'd assumed that I was. I'm still going to be probably but now it is just awkward.

Vote: Vedith

Maybe we can get that going?

we're at 4 or 5 votes we can DO THIS

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Chrimi, Shadow's a good vote but consider this:

You scumread KTS (not that I agree). Pisskop pointed out the existence (but not specifics) of KTS/Vedith associatives. Vedith is the biggest non-Skelda wagon. Thoughts?

VOTE: Vedith

also @Pisskop we can talk about wake D2 because i'm interested, get off your vanity wagon because it's deadline :C

[gigabyteTroubadour]

if anyone outside of the vedith wagon is interested in jumping in i can explain my read on him, just ask first

otherwise there has been a lack of cases this game and i don't see the point of trying to write something no one is going to read

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Sounds good to me.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Is Vedith scum

Pretty sure. Not sure why Chrimi and Charloux jumped off the wagon, but those Vedith posts weren't super terrible so I guess I can see why...?

Who would you rather wagon? It's deadline, my options are pretty open.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

not really interested in lynching wake while he's v/la though, we'll miss out on a claim if he turns out to be vanilla (goon or townie).

Vedith still seems like the viable lynch candidate. Do I need to explain my scumread on him?

[gigabyteTroubadour]

The case in my draft is too wordy. I think the people here like conciseness, so I will be as brief as I can with this.

His tone, which Zach pointed out as a

positive

, is very fake to me. It's jokey like he's trying to be "easygoing" or looking like he's having fun, but I get the impression he's trying to be difficult to understand by hiding behind it.

If anything, it almost makes him seem like he's disconnected from the actual game and more focused on Firebringer. One reason I especially think this is that Vedith almost never seems to post unless he or Firebringer are mentioned. I don't really think they're associated in terms of the game, they're clearly friends. But making "bussing" jokes when RVS was pages ago and demanding that Firebringer townread him for absolutely no reason just gives me the impression he doesn't really care about scumhunting. Most of his ISO is pretty empty too, so it's difficult to pull out specifics. It's a quick read, so I would suggest taking a look at it.

He also never really pushes anyone, and while that goes for everyone, the way Vedith doesn't push anyone is... strange. He's scumreading me, that much is obvious. But his comments during the Charloux wagon make me feel like he was on it to somehow bolster his scumread on me further. 677 and 697, for example, make me feel this. 677 is a pretty awful way to brush off someone's scumread of you. I scumread you because I think you're scum, not because I brought my partner to L-1 and decided his claim came from a townie. 697 was kind of indirect, but it's also a blatant lie. A lynching wagon that gets to L-1 doesn't have resistance to it at all, especially one that got there as quickly as Charloux's. The point is here though, there's no push on

me

. It's just stating I'm scum and then ignoring me.

So, in a nutshell:

• 1. Weird, fake-sounding tone.
  2. Needs to be beetlejuiced into the game, doesn't really interact with anyone besides major wagonees and Firebringer.
  3. No clear evidence of scumhunting.
  4. Passive play, probably coasting on the fact that his wagon actually has resistance.

There are better theoretical lynches but they aren't in this game right now. We need to get a wagon together, and I say Vedith or bust. (i'd actually support a few other wagons but)

[gigabyteTroubadour]

i would only vote skelda if it means stopping a no lynch. i think skelda is town.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Actually, with an even number of players, is a no lynch that terrible...?? It's a bad omen, yeah, but why lose a town-aligned player?

[gigabyteTroubadour]

gigas case makes me want to jump back on Vedith.
>.>
No, we need this lynch now.

Both can viably be lynched today. If anything, your vote would be the one that shifts the momentum.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

I want KTS to vote for Vedith as soon as possible. I can't talk about it because ongoing games, but KTS should be the next vote.

Also my nulltownread on him has gone down. Also cannot talk about why.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

get back on vedith kts

pls

And, sorry, I'll try to be more careful :/

[gigabyteTroubadour]

no i deserve it

tbh i take back what i said i'm an idiot

[gigabyteTroubadour]

I set an alarm for 4 hours, about an hour and a half from the deadline. I really do not want to make the decision between lynching a townread and no-lynching, but if it comes down to that I will.

Charloux and Wake88, consider this: I spent a good portion of the day asking why Skelda was being suspected, and only MariaR and Shadow_Step had any answers. If you think their cases are compelling, vote Skelda. But I find it very questionable that the Skelda wagon went through with hardly any case around it. I admit I withheld my case against Vedith out of spite towards this town doing the same for Skelda's, but it's here in 1419 now. Make the right decision here, whether you think it's Skelda or Vedith.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Let's hope this flip, regardless of what it is, is the kick-in-the-ass this town needs to be competent.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

No, you were on Skelda.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

1418, you changed your vote for the sake of the deadline.

I thought that fakehammer was intentional...

[gigabyteTroubadour]

we can lynch wake

Can you get a wagon of 8 people together in four-ish hours...?

[gigabyteTroubadour]

If you are sure you can make it here in 3 hours and want to lynch Wake, tell me right now. I'm going to make a list of people willing to lynch Wake reliably. If we get 7 or 8 people, I am moving my vote over to him. Otherwise, I still think Vedith is a good lynch and I was hoping we'd discuss Wake tomorrow anyway.

People willing to lynch Wake

• 1. gigabyteTroubadour
  2.
  3.
  4.
  5.
  6.
  7.
  8.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

People willing to lynch Wake

• 1. gigabyteTroubadour
  2. Creature
  3.
  4.
  5.
  6.
  7.
  8.

Reminder

not

to shift wagons until we get 7 or 8 people, whether you're voting Skelda or Vedith. In case this doesn't work out, we need to make sure we can get a lynch through.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

My concern with putting Dunn on there is that I don't know if he'll be online.

Wake, my last straw with you was that accidental fakehammer. Consider that my reasoning.

And what votes this game had reasoning behind them? We've had flash wagons popping up again and again, full of naked votes. Is that what happens when scum have daytalk?

[gigabyteTroubadour]

No, I'm scumreading Vedith and townreading Skelda. I'm not risking losing the wagon I have on him for a wagon of two people. The list is there for a reason, I'm only moving when I can be sure Wake is getting lynched.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Also, look at the list. I count four.

Dunn has not personally asked to be on the list. Meaning he might not be online and we'll end up with another wagon at L-2 that can't be hammered. I'm not allowing that.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

The "might not be online" part has some value. The "has not personally asked to be on the list" is just wtf. They're the one that said "we can lynch Wake"

The "has not personally asked to be on the list" part is to ensure that the "might not be online" part doesn't happen. That's what I wrote at the original post, if you scumread Wake and can reliably vote him in 3 hours (now 2 I think), ask to be on the list.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

There are four hours left.

I took away an hour and am severely underestimating the time we have left to make sure we can hammer with a claim and cleanly.

And Wake, I had no reason to vote you until your sloppy fakehammer. If you want to believe that there is scum-based resistance to Vedith, then you should realize I'm the one pushing that wagon.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

The problem isn't that we can't get anyone to agree, it's the fact that not everybody is online. Which is, again, why I refuse to change my vote. I think my case on Vedith, while weak, does go beyond "it's gut", which I can't even tell if that's the extent of the case against Skelda.

This chaos at least has made me change my read on Creature to town and solidify my read on Chrimi.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

VOTE: KTS

This is a compromise vote since the Vedith wagon is dismantled.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Plus, I don't want to hammer without a claim if we can avoid it. If it's 30 minutes until the deadline, then please quickhammer, but we have a few hours to wait for KTS to log on.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

We have exactly an hour. KTS is at L-1, I don't think Skelda's wagon can catch up.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

WHAT HAPPENED TO YOUR TOWNREAD

I said I was compromise lynching you, I had a null townread. My scumread's wagon died, and if I were forced to pick between you and Skelda as a lynch I would have picked you. I don't want to NL today if we can avoid it.

Skelda, no one's been hammered. I want to look at a votecount though.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

I had a null townread

WTF is a null town read?

A very weak townread. Based on gut more than anything.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

actually now that there's a case against skelda i'm more willing to vote. What is he at?

[gigabyteTroubadour]

VOTE: Skelda

[gigabyteTroubadour]

L-1

[gigabyteTroubadour]

If Skelda flips scum, I'm going to hate this town forever because I would have happily voted for him if someone explained why Skelda was scummy. At least my wish was granted but I'm worried I made the wrong call here.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Yeah... My play this game has been terrible though, but I guess this is a learning moment.

My first lynch on this site was also a shitty compromise lynch made at deadline... So I kind of have a history with this. Actually, the situation here is almost exactly like that one, except there's no RadiantCowbells.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

I'm alive

Dunn, can you point to the specific post/time you stopped scumreading/pushing the Skelda wagon? That's where I want to start today, because I think the Skelda wagon is much scummier than the Vedith one, even if Vedith winds up being town too.

I also would like to know if Chrimi successfully neighborized. Not interested in the whos, just if it worked out or if she was roleblocked.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Up until the point he was speedlynched without me noticing

OK, that's what I thought.

Do you agree with me that scum is probably within the people who speedlynched him?

Skelda

: Vedith, MariaR, Zachstralkita,

pisskop

, Wake88, Shadow_Step

Vedith: gigabyteTroubadour, Creature, Dunnstral,

Skelda

, Firebringer, KTS

Off both wagons: Chrimi, Charloux

When the town was split 50/50 on Vedith and Skelda, this is what the wagons looked like. I don't think Zach or Maria are scum, so I'm still interested in Vedith, Wake, and Shadow.

I also want to know Creature's thought process in picking Vedith over Skelda, since I believe he was part of the Skelda wagon when it first got to L-1?

[gigabyteTroubadour]

btw why did everyone unvote kts? because he claimed?

Yeah, I wasn't really OK with compromise lynching someone with a powerrole because I figured that it would be better to keep him alive and focus on him more when there isn't a deadline rush.

Plus, JK is a pretty good role in town's hands and I think with night actions it's pretty easy for KTS to slip and reveal himself as scum by jailing the wrong person.

---

Zach, could you be more specific? I know I was pretty weird during the deadline rush, but I thought I was pretty clear in what I was thinking? I guess not because people criticized me for being more open to lynching KTS than Wake which was actually not the case.

I eventually lynched Skelda because I'd rather lose a VT and get information from the lynch than end up with a NL, and there wasn't really a plausible alternative to me.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Hey wait, Zach, this might seem like a weird question but are you scumreading anyone? I feel like you've been giving a lot of townreads, but besides Skelda I can't really recall anyone you've been suspicious of.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

I eventually lynched Skelda because I'd rather lose a VT and get information from the lynch than end up with a NL, and there wasn't really a plausible alternative to me.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

I'm sorry for not lynching a powerrole who I wasn't scumreading? Is it really bad play to not want to compromise lynch a powerrole?

I don't really think Chrimi is scum, but I have to ask Chrimi the same question she asks in 1709... Why would I start pushing the Vedith wagon if I could have gotten on the Skelda wagon? I don't understand what the scum motivation is in pulling together a counterwagon on (what you believe to be) a townie when I could have just lynched Skelda before the deadline.

Also thank god

VOTE: Vedith

[gigabyteTroubadour]

I reason I find you sus is because you're barely active and then you come here when it's convenient for you. You also picked either the most selfish role in history for town or tried to almost say "I can't be scum because I picked this" You're not my top lynch choice but you need to be looked at.

Maria, it's super anti-town for me to explain in detail why but Chrimi actually made a really good choice in a role, I was thinking about it more over the night.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

You refused to join the Wake88 or KTS wagon until there was already momentum. You literally refused to do it until it wouldn't make you stick out too much

Were you reading anything I wrote? I wanted Vedith as the lynch, but if it wasn't going to happen and I could be sure Wake was, I would have voted. I was pretty much forced to move to the KTS wagon because I didn't want Skelda lynched at the time and every online person on the Vedith wagon had moved. If anything, my carefulness at the time made me stick out because everyone else was happy to vote for Wake/KTS while I wanted to make sure the wagon could actually get together first.

I'm glad you're now scumreading Vedith at the very least, but I think you're confbiasing on me a bit. Especially if the only scum motivation for my pre-deadline push for Vedith you can come up with is so I can say "why would scum do that"...

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Obviously because it's an out-of-the-way kill that provides us with not very much information.

No...?

I think the scumteam was scared of Pisskop actually having a role. The most powerful, top-priority roles for scum to get rid of (the vigs, cop) haven't claimed anywhere, and as Dunn showed Pisskop crumbed

something

. Out of everyone below Charloux (the lowest person to have claimed a role), Pisskop is on the higher end of the roles and crumbed (unlike Wake), so he was a safe bet to NK for a scumteam trying to PR fish.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

JK is a protective role.. Why wouldn't they take out JK so if a PR claims later they don't need to worry about them being protected?

Well, then they'd look for a doctor, which is extremely easy for scum to do because Skelda's claim limited to four possible people. A JK protecting a PR is risky because then they would roleblock said PR, which could make said PR useless.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Yes, but..

It's still a better kill than a random VT?

You're missing the point.

Pisskop isn't a

random

VT, he intentionally baited the NK by pretending to claim a PR. Unless scum were worried that a JK would protect someone they wanted to kill, looking for a cop or a vig is a much smarter move than killing a JK who probably isn't going to protect the right person.

Is it even smart for a town jailkeeper to protect a town powerrole D1? Or at all?

[gigabyteTroubadour]

well crumbed is the right word.

1295 reads like a cop crumb to me

[gigabyteTroubadour]

also dunn sorry for saying exactly what you are

[gigabyteTroubadour]

also dunn sorry for saying exactly what you are

huh

I explained to Chrimi that Pisskop crumbed a PR.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Giga shit posting as if they know exactly what the scum done and why - Read that part carefully.

Absolutely impossible for me to be paying attention to what people have been claiming and what Pisskop posted! No idiotic confbiasing here, NKA might as well be a scumtell!!

Can Charloux explain how he came to the conclusion that Pisskop was a vigshot?

[gigabyteTroubadour]

>> Dunnstral - Null
>> Firebringer - Town
>> Shadow_Step - Town
>> Killthestory - Scum
>> gigabyteTroubadour - Scum
>> MariaR - Null
>> Charloux - Town
>> Wake88 - Town
>> Chrimi - Town
>> Creature - Null
>> Zachstralkita - Town

This readlist doesn't add up at all. Here are the wagons from yesterday with Vedith's reads colored in.

Skelda

:

Vedith

, MariaR,

Zachstralkita

,

pisskop

,

Wake88

,

Shadow_Step

Vedith

:

gigabyteTroubadour,

Creature, Dunnstral,

Skelda

,

Firebringer

,

KTS

Off both wagons:

Chrimi

, Charloux

Does anyone else in this game think that the Skelda wagon was pushed entirely by town or, alternatively, pushed by town sheeping a scum!MariaR? If so, why?

And if the entire Skelda wagon was town, I have to ask

again

, why the hell is scum pushing a counterwagon instead of hammering?

[gigabyteTroubadour]

pretend i colored in Charloux green btw

[gigabyteTroubadour]

pretend i colored in Charloux green btw

Do you still sr Ved after the hammer incident?

Yes. Should it have changed?

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Here's the thing. If Vedith is town, I want to understand why he would think that A: you are not town, and B: why the Skelda wagon is mostly town, especially if he isn't scumreading Dunn.

His reads seem really contrived to me because I believe that there was scum at, the very least, on Skelda's wagon. I honestly didn't get much of a read from the incident a couple pages back. I just want to know if Vedith has his head up his ass or if I just caught him in a lie.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

@Mod, I'm going to be V/LA for the next two days.

In the meantime, I want reads from KTS, Dunn, and Creature (the PoE list only has townreads, I want null and scumreads too) so that I can do VCA with them. Thanks.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Maria is trying to look so genuine and townie.

Could you make one giant case on me please so I can de bunk any type of scum read you have on me you have had me as scum the whole game so it shouldn't be hard to give you examples.

I really am excited for this

Just poking in to add that I would like anyone townreading Vedith to give me a readslist with both scum and townreads. That includes Dunn, Creature, and KTS too.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Wagons filled in with Maria's reads

Skelda

:

Vedith

,

MariaR

,

Zachstralkita

,

pisskop

, Wake88,

Shadow_Step

Vedith

:

gigabyteTroubadour

,

Creature

, Dunnstral,

Skelda

,

Firebringer

, KTS

Off both wagons:

Chrimi

, Charloux

and with Creature's reads

Skelda

:

Vedith

,

MariaR

,

Zachstralkita

,

pisskop

, Wake88,

Shadow_Step

Vedith

:

gigabyteTroubadour

,

Creature

, Dunnstral,

Skelda

, Firebringer,

KTS

Off both wagons:

Chrimi

,

Charloux

So the conclusion? If the Vedith wagon is mostly lead by townies,

scum is hiding in the Vedith wagon, not pushing it

. Pisskop's nightkill wasn't only PR fishing, it was a status quo kill. Someone pretty neutral (but ultimately on the Skelda wagon) died. The scumteam wants us to lynch Vedith if he's town because there's no change or opposition to it now.

My reads after doing this thought exercise:

Vedith as Scum

Skelda

:

Vedith

,

MariaR

,

Zachstralkita

,

pisskop

,

Wake88

,

Shadow_Step

Vedith

:

gigabyteTroubadour

,

Creature

,

Dunnstral

,

Skelda

, Firebringer,

KTS

Off both wagons:

Chrimi

,

Charloux

Scumteam is probably Vedith/Wake/Firebringer. Vedith had his vote parked on Skelda most of yesterday once the Charloux wagon died and when Skelda was at L-4 (making Vedith's vote the tipping point). Wake voted for Skelda over Vedith when the wagons were equally strong without any clear reason, while Firebringer had to be nudged in order to move from Skelda to Vedith.

The only issue is that there was a point where the entire scumteam was on a single wagon... I am not sure how this affects the likelihood if this actually being the scumteam, but I would imagine that it would have been smarter for Wake to have bussed Vedith? Firebringer's liking of my case and moving his vote because I asked him to doesn't really seem to suggest that it was a bus to me, but there was a strategic benefit to getting onto the Vedith wagon at the same time.

So I'm going to say that Vedith I'm iffy on Vedith being scum still? Dunn's going to have to defend this one to me because I'm not sure how else it's going to work. Best way of doing that would to give me a readlist.

UNVOTE:

Vedith as Town

Skelda

:

Vedith

,

MariaR

,

Zachstralkita

,

pisskop

,

Wake88

, Shadow_Step

Vedith

:

gigabyteTroubadour

, Creature, Dunnstral,

Skelda

, Firebringer, KTS

Off both wagons:

Chrimi

,

Charloux

I am pretty sure the scumteam is in {Wake, Shadow, Creature, Dunn, Firebringer, KTS}. Most of the reads above are null because I'm pretty much starting fresh now. Out of those 6, I'm iffiest on Shadow, Creature, Dunn, and KTS, but then that leaves only 2 scum. Not enough for a team. Creature and Maria's reads seem to imply that it could be Dunn/Wake/Firebringer.

VOTE: Wake88

His activity during the deadline is still sketchy to me. He refused to acknowledge the Vedith wagon entirely. Why?

And

@Zach

, I am under the impression that this is Dunn's town game based on the meta I've read of him. Do you have anything that would make me doubt that? I'm asking you because I think you know Dunn the best, and Dunn pushing and then jumping off the Skelda wagon is pretty weird if Vedith is town.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

So I'm going to say that I'm iffy on Vedith being scum still?

EBWOP

[gigabyteTroubadour]

I also want Maria to answer what she thinks of the fact that based on her reads, most of the Skelda wagon is town. The same question I asked Vedith.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

And @Zach, I am under the impression that this is Dunn's town game based on the meta I've read of him.

Link me to the game where he was scum please.

Mini 1803, scum game

Open 644, scum game (as a traitor)

Mini 1787, town game

Newbie 1720, town game

All of the completed games I've read that Dunn's been in.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Hmm, but if Vedith's wagon got traction because scum intended to cast doubt onto the Skelda wagon after his flip, wouldn't that imply Vedith would flip red? Unless I'm reading what you wrote wrong, it seems that there was no need for a counterwagon to be pushed by scum because they could have done the same exact thing by just hammering Skelda if his wagon was entirely/mostly townies...

I don't really know if I agree with the role-swapping theory because if scum!Chrimi's partner is lynched, Chrimi would be autolynched because it would be outed that she fakeclaimed. It seems like an unnecessary risk to take that only benefits the scumteam if Chrimi were lynched as soon as she claimed. I guess that would pretty much have to make her a Mafia Vengeful then if it's true, right? It doesn't really add up to me still.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

ok first
KTS wasn't getting lynched because no one was hammering him. i didn't unvote as soon as he claimed. I unvoted when it was clear he wasn't getting hammered by Maria and I didn't push for it because, again, I would rather lynch Skelda over a PR I'm unsure about. If you have a case, by all means present it. To me, KTS is acting the same way he does in all of his games, which are almost entirely town games.

second, why do you think he's specifically fakeclaiming? Was there a cc I missed?

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Kraska!!!! I think you replaced into a scum slot again but I'm not sure

[gigabyteTroubadour]

VOTE: Firebringer

Creature, is this an equally good vote?

kraska ilu btw but ur not going to trick me again

[gigabyteTroubadour]

no

it's anti town to explain

wait 'til post game

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Kraska before I forget, ask Bins what Ümläüt picked in the draft, even if you don't have a PR you're supposed to claim that at L-1 too. I don't think Wake understood the setup so I forgot to remind him lmao

[gigabyteTroubadour]

We know there is a doctor/roleblocker above Skelda in the draft. If it's a roleblocker, well... we might have scum there

technically there could be a town roleblocker but who would pick that over doctor... right?

[gigabyteTroubadour]

I am like 90% sure I know what pair Dunn picked

and i agree

I want Zach to answer my meta question though because I'm waffling hard on it

[gigabyteTroubadour]

it's not actually a dumb question

anyway, you get your alignment first, then pick the number, then the pair. Scum were able to plan what roles they would take so it's unlikely they picked the same # and almost impossible they would pick the same role pair.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

I don't really know if the people who go for high numbers are more likely to be town? Are you suggesting they intentionally tried to lose the draft? I figured people picking high numbers expect everyone else to do the same.

And picking the same numbers as someone decreases your chance of getting a PR so scum probably would not want to hinder themselves like that. Doesn't mean it clears anyone but it's an associative to take note of.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

*people w/ high numbers expect everyone else to pick low numbers

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Yes:

Chrimi: Neighborizer
KTS: Jailkeeper
Maria: "I'm not a strong PR.... so it's ok if u mislynch me while we have some left..." (maria u r an angel btw )
Charloux: "I picked Universal Backup but I'm not telling you if I got it!"

[gigabyteTroubadour]

And

@Zach

, I am under the impression that this is Dunn's town game based on the meta I've read of him. Do you have anything that would make me doubt that? I'm asking you because I think you know Dunn the best, and Dunn pushing and then jumping off the Skelda wagon is pretty weird if Vedith is town.

It's tricky because he tends to lynch town as either alignment

who doesn't

Is that like the only thing you've noticed about him this game though...?

[gigabyteTroubadour]

it's not anti-town play that bothers me about him though, that's why i think he's town

i'll talk about it if i ever vote for him, for now i'm still thinking because i'd be drastically changing my read on him

[gigabyteTroubadour]

VOTE: KillTheStory

on a green flip we get a townie who can reveal their alignment at night, red means we lynched mafia

i've thought about it, there's no downside to lynching a jailkeeper claim when Charizard is here

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Can we vig Vedith? I'm against his lynch until D4, I have a bad feeling.

Chrimi should make a case against KTS. With me being doubtful about Vedith's alignment (i don't think kraska is scum, meaning most of the skelda wagon is probably town), I don't have a townread on KTS. If Chrimi's case against KTS is utter shit, that'll be why I unvote.

And jailkeeper is a great role. It would just work better in the hands of confirmable town.

and tbh idk if creature is town. that question was a reaction test but it's still my vote if kts turns out ugly

[gigabyteTroubadour]

the reasoning behind Vedith being town seems to be that if the Skelda wagon is mostly town, scum won't push a counterwagon on their buddy

At least that's why I have cold feet?

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Can we vig Vedith? I'm against his lynch until D4, I have a bad feeling.

How are we going to vig vedith?

Both vengeful and night 3 vigilante are the same slot

only one person died meaning either mafia had the one shot vig or a town who didn't think they'd die has it or a kill got blocked

oh fuck

ok nvm

VOTE: Vedith

No, I changed my read on Charizard.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

kraska how far are you? do you have a readlist?

[gigabyteTroubadour]

also kraska knows my towngame better than anyone on this site, she's crushed me as scum and we've hydraed.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

kraska, what do you think about the Skelda wagon vs. the Vedith wagon, since you townread Vedith now? Also, have you read the game from page 1 to wherever or have you just been paying attention to recent events?

[gigabyteTroubadour]

still hard townreading charloux for his claim btw, plus deadline stupidity seems more townie than scummy to me

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Actually if it's a "one or the other" sort of deal it's Dunn/Vedith to me. Definitely not SvS interactions, and with the way the town was split, Dunn makes the most sense as scum if Vedith (and the whole Skelda wagon) was town. Maybe it's a different story with scum!Edgehog, he's still kind of weirding me out. What do you think the chance the entire scumteam is on one counterwagon, anyway?

My vote though shows that I'm more paranoid about Dunn than scumreading him tho

and KTS could really be any alignment to me tbqh

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Charloux gets lynched a lot D1, especially as scum. makes no sense for a scumteam to coordinate their rolepicks so that their lynchbaity player takes the role pair that requires a player who can survive. If Charloux is town, then he probably expects himself to fly under the radar and survive at least until D3.

So it's mostly meta.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

charloux claimed?

Why?

he claimed what he picked at L-1... that's normal

we just don't know if he really got it

[gigabyteTroubadour]

i am hard townreading zach...

kraska have u caught up...? you should do that... -__-

[gigabyteTroubadour]

also you are still voting vedith -___-
kraksa u r not making me want to townread wake's slot... but you also were not like this as scum??

[gigabyteTroubadour]

who is scum with charloux, zach?

bc i guess i can see why scum!Charloux would not want to be on a wagon... but doesn't that suggest the scumteam was voting for Skelda and not Vedith? or split 50/50 idk

[gigabyteTroubadour]

i'll respond to my thoughts once i have computer access

[gigabyteTroubadour]

with my thoughts*

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Ok phoneposting still (might have to extend my v/la because i don't have internet, i have to use phone data strategically -__-)

Zach, I think Shadow/Dunn/Charloux could make sense as a scumteam if Vedith/Skelda is TvT... Still townreading Charloux but I'd support a Shadow lynch in all honesty.

Creature, we seem to have the same idea of what the gamestate is, but I don't buy Dunn/Vedith as SvS interactions, and Dunn jumping on Vedith's wagon didn't read too... bussy? Assume that Vedith is town. Who is the third scum in Dunn/Firebringer/X? If it's Vedith/Firebringer, who is it?

Also, Creature, are you strongly townreading anyone, or are all of your townreads (besides KTS and Zach) about the same strength?

[gigabyteTroubadour]

One more question to everyone (but mostly creature): Does Pisskop dying (I don't believe the vig theory so I'm assuming he's a scum nk) indicate that the scumteam didn't think the doc would protect PK, or that they didn't need to look for a doctor?

I'm assuming the person who picked Doctor/RB goes for doc if they're town, rb if scum. I don't really see a good reason to do otherwise, Doc is a better protective role for town than a rb.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Why is everyone ok with a charloux lynch

He was a counterwagon to a town lynch, which means that its possible that other lynch was pushed to prevent his lynch.
Which is possibly bs, because I pushed against his lynch then and we had so many fucking wagons yesterday. IDK.

Pisskop death I think points to him a bit too.

Are you confusing Charloux and Vedith? Charloux was a main wagon with no counterwagon, check Bins's ISO.

Why does Charloux/Vedith specifically benefit from Pisskop dying?

[gigabyteTroubadour]

I think there's a flaw in your theory

About the NK? I want to know your thoughts then, actually. If it's something else then I'd like to know too.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

do you mean charloux or vedith? bc I don't think you could be scum with Vedith, which technically means i don't scumread you (check my vote )

I haven't really explored scum!Charloux yet, pushing the vig theory is weird but other than that I don't see a reason to let go of my townread

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Dunn and Kraska, what do you think of 225 (or more specifically the conversation between Vedith and Dunn)?

[gigabyteTroubadour]

I guess you're right, I looked through the early game a bit more and I guess I'm not seeing what Zach is w/ Charloux/You together?

Do you think scum!Vedith is playing dumb or something lime that in the post I linked? His posting implies he didn't understand the set-up, but wouldn't his scumbuddies explain it to him if that were true?

[gigabyteTroubadour]

did i misread 2271? He answered "Who is scum with Charloux" with you and Shadow?

btw it's like 5 am and i haven't slept so i just might not be thinking straight here