Open 54 - Basic 12 Player (over) before 529

[Elmo]

Random

vote

:

appleof88

.

Also, Patrick is never scum, so FoS: Glork for voting for a confirmed townie.

[Elmo]

Still quite happy with my random vote, actually. I'm of the opinion Patrick is town, for what it's worth.

[Elmo]

Why is it amazing?

I didn't say I was 100% OMG SUPER CERTAIN he was town. If I was, I'd be voting Glork. I'm just of that opinion (leaning that way) at the moment.

[Elmo]

I don't think you would non-random vote Glork like that as scum. It doesn't make much sense to me. Unless you're both scum and doing some bizarre distancing thing, and I think that's unlikely.

[Elmo]

No. This isn't a general thing. I just felt what he did felt weakly pro-town, in that he wouldn't do that if he were scum.

I know you can talk about WIFOM; I still think it's townish.

[Elmo]

I thought post 8 and everything after it was serious - if not, then colour me dumb. Can I get a yes/no on that from one of you two? Cos that would help me understand where you're actually coming from.

Andycya: 'less you thought they were joking, I dunno what you're on about. 's right there.

appleof88: I don't get the feeling Ripley does, but I don't see why you switched to IH. Why? You following Glork about?

I had the same feeling about Crub, but I don't think it's a strong tell. I can perfectly well see (and offhand think have seen) townies do the same thing. I guess scum probably do it more, but enough to make it indicative? Dubious, I think. I dunno.

[Elmo]

I agree with Ripley. I feel it's more speculative than he does, but he's not wrong.

[Elmo]

I think this list could be trying to narrow our vision negatively.

How would that work?

Patrick: Eh, I thought non-random vote = suspicion. O well then.

[Elmo]

Wank: Not personally, no. How's he look scummy?

IH: I don't like 42 either, he says I posted "out of nowhere". He could be misunderstanding, but I'm actually more inclined to believe he's trying to play it up. I also think the FoS is a bit much. What Shanba does strikes me as much more natural.

I don't think apple's vote is interesting, now.

Unvote

:

appleof88

;

vote

:

Andycyca

for 4 on.

p.s. Sikario, post content k thx.

[Elmo]

wank: I am really not seeing your case on Ripley.

Originally he said his vote for Ripley wasn't really serious, but it seems he was happy to FoS him when he'd got someone on his side.

If why I'm suspicious of him, it's like I already said, the timing and reasoning for the FoS I didn't like.

I somewhat agree with Glork. The FoS strikes me as genuine, personally.

Since this is the next page, and Ether's away until tomorrow, here's an unofficial vote count:

4 Andycyca (IH, Crub, Elmo, Shanba)
2 appleof88 (Ripley, Patrick)
2 IH (JDodge, Glork)
2 Ripley (appleof88, wank)
2 wank (Andycyca, Sikario8)

12 alive; 7 to lynch.

[Elmo]

Oh, awesome. Hai <3

[Elmo]

Skiario, what do you think of Patrick's vote and the exchange between Ripley and wank?

[Elmo]

His reaction in 42 feels false - it doesn't make sense regardless of whether he does or doesn't understand my mistake, and it feels like he's trying to play it up. His comment about Ripley's list in 77 seems obviously wrong, it wouldn't work as a false dichotomy unless people were braindead, and the comment about apple's "throwing everything against Ripley" seems fake. Both his response to "reading too much" in 87 about it being a 'coincidence' and his response regarding 42 strike me as off - I don't think Ripley did anything unusual, and I think he avoided my question a bit.

That was tricky. I think I've summarised it okay, but obviously I can't put every detail in.

[Elmo]

IH told me to.

Pretty sure he didn't. Do you frequently follow other people's votes without reason?

unvote wank

Why?

p.s. IH be answering Glork's question plz I'm interested in the answer too

[Elmo]

I'm sitting tight on Andy, by the way. I have no idea why I lose town points with Crub. Eh. I'm curious for the reasoning behind some of that too, I guess, mostly because there's nothing else going on.

This is one of those times where I'm not sure if I should say the things I can think of, and I wish I could think of something else that would start conversation, because there needs to be more happening. Eeeh.

[Elmo]

Unvote

Why are you unvoting IH without revoting, in response to something Patrick said?

Hi Everyone So Glork who are we lynching?

What information have you gained thus far?

Not much, from this boring town, being controlled by you

Elmo loses town points.

I felt Elmo was stretching to make himself look good to glork

You've trying to buddy up to Glork, and you're saying I look anti-town because you thought I was trying to make myself look good to him? There seems to be a contradiction. My response is pretty standard, for me - with all respect to Glork, I don't go in for sycophantism. I very much doubt I would have taken Patrick's side previously (I thought) if that were the case. I also fail to see why trying to impress a 'celebrity' (for want of a better term) is anti-town. Why is it anti-town to try and make yourself to look good to Glork with a good, logical case on Andy?

[Elmo]

What does this mean? Why do you find it scummy that we're contributing alot?

I think you're contributing a lot in terms only useful to you two - I could go and reread Face-to-face, for example, but I hardly have the understanding that you two have of it. I don't find it scummy, but I think that's what he means.

Glork

: Assuming you and Patrick were serious, you appeared to be pointing fingers at him in a pretty OMGUS way. That's not the kind of thing I'd expect from ScumGlork, but it's very probably worth a vote, considering

I

could be (in this hypothetical case) near-certain he was pro-town, so you should at least be getting town vibes. It didn't make much sense to me at all, at the time.

Mmh. If your vote weren't doing anything, there's no reason to unvote. But to be honest, I don't really care. I've heard it said a townie should always be voting for someone, on principle. I figured you might be trying to make it look like you'd voted for Patrick and were then satisfied by what he said, when you was actually unvoting someone different. Though I don't see the point, 's worth asking about. I see what you mean about Crub. Still think there ain't much reason to think I was doing it just for you, but I suppose jumping to conclusions like that ain't really scummy.

General gameplay question: Someone who's actively lurking is scummy, if that's what you mean. Someone being inflammatory can be more or less scummy to me, depending on why I feel they're doing it. I'm sure you can think of lots of tactically relevant reasons to get someone steamed up.

...when your explanation of your Andy-vote is based almost entirely on the way his posts have "felt" or "seemed" to you. Where is the intersection of

gut

and

logic

here?

I suppose I don't separate the two much. Nonetheless, I think someone else can follow the argument, which I guess is the important thing.

You posted "I think Patrick is town" out of nowhere. Nobody was talking about him, not even posting suspicions

But it's only six posts ago Glork says "Seriously, guys. The lack of Patrick votes is rather disturbing.". How is it possible that Andy doesn't see what I'm talking about? Shanba merely says he doesn't see how I can get a read from so little content. That's a perfectly legitimate concern. I don't understand how Andy can reasonably believe my comment came out of nowhere when you and Patrick have been bantering for the last page and a half. If, however, he were scum, it's the kind of thing he might say in order to say the same thing as shanba, but try and add weight to the case. I don't see how it's a mistake, and I only see an anti-town motive.

I'm not sure this list is helpful, there must be many reasons behind a vote change. I think this list could be trying to narrow our vision negatively.

It might be. Or it might not be. What's a good reason to believe it is? Ripley's pointing out possible reasons - I find it hard to believe someone would actually be mislead into thinking they would be the only possible reasons. Certainly, as soon as apple says "no, it was just me fooling around" anyone who was getting tunnelvisioned would probably say "oh, yeah". I don't see it as something a person would say because they were legitimately concerned about it, so it's plausibly something else.

...and I think it's strange that apple FoS'es the one he's voting for. To me, it sounds like throwing everything against him hoping for a lynch.

A single FoS is not going to significantly influence anyone's behaviour. I don't think it's true, and I see no reason to say that, apart from (wait for it) attempting to make him look more suspicious.

It ain't that strong, but it's a decent reason to wagon Andy for a bit and see what falls out. Eh, maybe you see why I struggle to keep this short, now?

Not sure what Crub / Wank are doing right now. I's just going to have to reread it a couple times.

[Elmo]

Patrick

: Ya, I've said I don't really understand much coming from wank at the moment. On rereading I agree, I think he's just saying lots of talk = scummy.

Glork

: I don't understand why Apple's on your town list. I get kinda town vibes from him (oddly, cos there ain't much there) but I don't see how you can be that confidant. I also really question why Crub's on that list, stuff like 171 makes me feel ungood about him. This is more idle curiosity than real concern, fwiw.

Andycya

: Personally, a FoS from me is worse than just a vote, although I'm probably unusual in the respect - I think part of the problem is that there's no standard to what FoS means, and also that votes can mean different things. Obviously a FoS is worse than a random vote, for example, so it depends, but I see what you mean. I also see where you're coming from with the list, a bit.

---

I am 100% townie.
I am a townie.

These are the same. You can make arguments that they're not, but that's excessively pedantic, and although

you

might have some reason for thinking they're different, everyone else is unaware of that, and probably sees them as the same.

This should be kept secret but I am of the opinion that those who post too too much is scummy.

Where did I say that "posting too much is scummy"?

These hold the same meaning for me, too.

Very interesting. Not what I expected at all. But it is consistent with your character.

What'd you mean it's consistent with his character?

---

I do get town vibes from Andy, though, so

unvote

:

Andycyca

an'

vote

:

wank

because ANSWER THE QUESTION ALREADY. The guy who won the 2006 award for Best Mafia Catcher is telling you to answer the question,

I think he knows what he's doing

, maybe? Yeah?

Jdodge is lurking, as ever. I get kind of weak town vibes from Shanba but he ain't doing a great deal either. So that's three and a half idle. Eh.

[Elmo]

Unless you're scum, of course. I don't necessarily disagree, I'm just curious.

[Elmo]

Uh. The statement obviously refers to me. I can't help but feel you're going to play some kind of semantic games about feeling "targetted" and therefore being defensive if I just say "yes", so I'm not quite sure what you're asking.

Crub: Have you stopped beating your wife?

[Elmo]

Um.

I was right about the semantic games, then.

[Elmo]

Son, what I speak is law around here. If I say Apples is town, then he's definitely, absolutely town.

Actually, this jars with me.

You've just declared five other people protown. It's day one, and next to nothing's happened yet. I'm not claiming to be a phenomenal player, but I don't think I'd have done much significantly different as scum, and I really don't see much basis for getting a strong read on IH or Apple. I'm sure you're a good player, but I don't believe you can actually walk on water. If you don't want to say why you believe something right now, fair enough, but I'm not going to believe someone's pro-town just because

someone tells me to

, and I resent the idea I shouldn't be questioning you or asking for your reasoning.

I am also aware that your reputation precedes you, and that's probably a valuable asset when you're scum. I respect you as a good player, but I am not overawed, and I'd like an answer.

[Elmo]

FoS: Patrick for suggesting I ever take anything seriously

[Elmo]

Glork: Can you be more specific about apple? Why're you more confidant of him than, say, Shanba? I'd agree with everything you said. I don't think it's scummy, but it is very odd, in that I always felt it was harder to accurately peg someone as pro-town than find scum, kind of like proving a negative. I'm sorry if I was a bit strong in 225, but it does seem extremely odd to me, hence my curiosity.

wank: I think most of us understand semantics can be important. As far as I can tell, everyone here disagrees with you on the subject. I politely appeal to you as to the obvious conclusion, given that communication involves multiple parties.

Crub: Wot? On so many levels, wot?

[Elmo]

Glork: Perhaps shockingly, I know exactly what you're talking about. I know this is probably going to look like buddying up, but I also (again) agree with everything you said. I guess I had pretty much the same thought about apple, but I tend to distrust myself more, because I don't have your level of experience. Actually, this is a tad weird, it's almost exactly what I'd thought you say. But in a good way.

o O

EBWOP: See, this is my problem. Everything makes

perfect

sense in my head, but explaining it so that everyone fully understands what I'm thinking is incredibly difficult.

I also get this. FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT'S HOLY GUYS CAN WE PLEASE JUST LYNCH HIM BECAUSE HE'S SCUM ALREADY. >.>

Ripley: He calls Glork "a lil' bitch", he ain't exactly lying low, is he? Glork's right, anyway. Or at least it makes utter sense to me.

I think Andy is the player who bothers me the most right now, and his last post seems surprisingly scummy to me.

This bit makes me feel very ungood for some reason. I'd say Andy's been getting better as time goes on, and he was hardly that scummy to being with, just a lil' interesting. Just what exactly is wrong with his last post? And who's he copying? Why're you throwing out that type of vague accusation that scum love so much about someone who's been the popular wagon, but past the point where anyone cares? You weren't much into him when he had four votes on. Or in fact,

at all

, previously.

*squints suspiciously*

The Patrick wagon is a good wagon. I am liking Shanba quite a bit, right now. Actually I'm going to be a bit arbitrary and

unvote

:

wank

and

vote

:

Patrick

'cos that post makes me feel all queasy.

I truly hate lynching 'non-contributors' but I don't see a better lynch at the moment. And we can't just not lynch people because they don't make sense, because the meta will be horrific. So, uh, yeah. Let's hope this produces something interesting.

[Elmo]

No, macca, I mean crub / wank are non-contributors. You're fine on that front, and I apologise if I gave any other impression. I meant: I'm hoping this vote produces something interesting (from someone), otherwise we'll have to fall back to lynching a non-contributor.

Apple and sikario need to be doing more, too. Where's sikario got to?

I'll read the rest in a bit but I wanted to say that now.

[Elmo]

Why is that everything one does must be done for the sole purpose of hunting scum?

If you're here for your comic timing or witty repartee, your talents may be urgently needed elsewhere.

Actually I'm going to be a bit arbitrary and

unvote

:

wank

and

vote

:

Patrick

'cos that post makes me feel all queasy.

What?

I don't like that post. You know, the bits I quoted, and talked about, right next to where I voted. Are we there yet?

[Elmo]

Patrick: With respect to 257, didn't it strike you as a little strange that I would suddenly want to lynch you? I did skim-reread you with respect to Andy - I'll get back to you on the other stuff in due course (see sig ).

[Elmo]

Hrm, if I'm holding people up, I guess I'll bump this game up my list a bit.

You say he's a little suspicious to you in 78, but you don't seem that interested. Then the apple thing for a while. Ask Andy a question in 124, but it seems more a conversation starter than an interrogatory question. Oh, yeah, there's a bit in 144 that I missed, "I'd give Andy a higher than 3/11 chance of being scum, but not much" which is still pretty lukewarm-at-most. Pretty much nothing about andy again until you suddenly go back to him and vote in 247. And I really don't see what prompted that, atm, the given reason is 240, but I don't see anything scummy there. It's basically stating the obvious. wank's an easy lynch, but you can make roughly the same case about Glork, or me, for example, and he needs wagoning (imo). I don't see any good reason why that one post affects your behaviour towards him so much, given you nigh-on ignored the wagon before, not so much as a FoS and only a couple questions.

I'd also say there's a small contradiction in what you've said, in that 257 talks about Andy copying people for the forth time, and 247 talks specifically about his last post.

Basically: Why does 247 seem "surprisingly scummy" to you?

[Elmo]

Ergh, deadline crept up on me.

Not liking JDodge's deadline vote, I think Andy smells town. Saving your own skin by wanting people to reread and think through the lynch is not anti-town, eh. Also not comfortable with lynching Patrick, albeit I'm not entirely mollified. I'll reread sometime.

Also, Shanba's 248 needs more looking at if it's not factual. I wanna hear from Shanba exactly why Patrick's not right in his defence against that.

Crub: Can't speak for the mod, but I assume there's some kind of 'impending deadline' flavour scene.

I really have no idea if wank is scum, but I don't feel good about lynching anyone else. Sorry.

Unvote

:

Patrick

;

vote

:

wank

. If Sikario doesn't do anything interesting soon-ish, I would be fairly happy to lynch a lurker, as well. He's had more than enough time to toss his hat into the ring.

Brrr. Back to bed.

[Elmo]

IH: I don't think I've defended wank, and, uh, I'm voting for him. The "contributing a lot in terms only useful to you two" bit is just a guess ("I think that's what he means") because I tend to assume people make sense, and the obvious interpretation doesn't. Post 201 just explains why I'm voting for Andy, I don't think he's that scummy, just interesting enough to wagon for a bit (I say that there), not sure what you don't like about it. Glork's unvote, I simply can't think of a motive as scum, there's no point, so I'm calling it null, personally. I'm not feeling as good about Shanba now (see last post, f.e.) but maybe half your posts aren't contentful, so I don't think that's entirely fair - he's got 11 all-content posts, you've got maybe 15 content posts. Haven't been feeling strongly anything about either of you.

So.... why are you voting patrick?

Don't understand the question. At the time you ask it, I'm voting wank. At the time I said what you quoted, I'd switched my vote to Patrick, because that's the place it stands the highest chance of making something interesting happen, which is basically what you're quoting. Lynching wank gives us very little info, ya?

Elmo, any chance you could articulate why Shanba has given you weak town vibes earlier on?

My vague impression is that he plays scum lil' bit like his ava, blending into the background. He kinda jumps on me in an aggressive way that I found a bit townish (hard to describe, but he seemed to genuinely want to know why I'm doing that rather than wanting to make me look bad or something, although it's fairly ambiguous), then backs off a bit. I got the general impression that you were jumping onto Andy's wagon, so there's that "we're thinking the same thing so he might be town" thing that happens, and he seems to want to prod and poke and get things moving a bit.

On rethinking, your Andy vote was after it was actually realistically going to be a lynch. So actually Shanba's vote was for a different reason, which turns out not to be true, I think (hence last post).

Actually I'm none too happy with Shanba, atm - I feel Andy's town and it's very possible you're town, which doesn't look that good for him. And he jumps onto the Andywagon in 98 while accusing you of the same. Hmmmmm.

IH's been ill, like, I somehow don't think the long slightly abstruse post is a scumtell.

I hate JDodge's last post with a passion. Seriously, that's nastier than ten times everything Andy's done combined. I am well tempted to vote him instead, and I may yet do so. Still thinking.

Mod

: Any chance of fixing IH's quote tags, somehow? PM or something?

[Elmo]

I'd do that, too. What'd you of JDodge lynch, Glork? 295 =

amazingly

scummy.

[Elmo]

I find it odd the way Elmo's obsessing over this, but not actually acting on it. Does anyone else agree?

Two posts is hardly obsessing. Regardless, I find it scummy, is it bad to 'obsess' over possible scumtells, JD?

I said I was still thinking.

[Elmo]

Argumentum ad nauseam is bad, but it's hardly what I was doing. Why did you say I was 'obsessing'? Why is it odd not to act on it at that time?

[Elmo]

I'd say that the better lynch at the moment is andy, based on

that last post

Meh, it was more "I don't like a Patrick lynch, and

something seems off about Andy's vote

" thing

BZZZT, WRONG. Which is it?

Why is "clearly he is trying to save his own skin" worth a vote? Your given reason for voting him is post 294. What's so scummy about it?

[Elmo]

Unvote

:

wank

;

vote

:

JDodge

.

[Elmo]

^ failure

[Elmo]

I smell blood.

[Elmo]

Jonny: IH has been sick recently. I believe that explains the quiet, personally.

[Elmo]

I'd be a whole lot happier about a JDodge lynch if I didn't feel as though the bandwagon materialised out of thin air, very quickly with less than stellar wagoners.

This is a legitimate concern in principle, but apart from Sikario, I don't see anything wrong with the wagoners. Glork = obvgood, I don't see any problem with Ripley (I don't think you've mentioned him) and I'm still not sure what your problem with me is. As far as I can tell, you're voting me for giving a long answer to Glork and for something I didn't say, this "targetted" = "defensiveness" business.

Why're you still voting for me, anyway? I can think of a reason, but if it's that, then it's fairly obviously not working.

wank: Put it this way, I have 8 people in mind who I don't want to be the president, and you were the least objectionable president to my mind. Also, if you're a townie, then getting lynched on day 1 is a townie lynch, which is bad. Unless you do something to counter the loss of a townie, which I don't see you doing, then it's a bad idea, no?

[Elmo]

Don't understand the question.

At the time you said what I quoted you voted Patrick, and that's exactly what I meant.

Oh, I think I get it now. My reason for voting Patrick is basically the paragraph a lil' above what you quoted in 256 ("This bit makes me feel very ungood for some reason"), that Patrick seemed to be jumping onto Andy's wagon suddenly after not finding him suspicious for a good while. If that isn't what you're asking, you're gonna hafta spell it out for me.

Question, would you rather have an info lynch, or a scum lynch? (What I mean is, a lynch to get information, or a lynch to get scum?)

Varies. No-one has any idea about wank's alignment, and lynching him gives us virtually no info. So it's bad any way you look at it. The only reason I'd vote him is because it's the safe play; if we lose a townie, best lose one that's not doing any good.

Where am I defending wank, anyway?

I want to

FoS Shanba

since thats what I figured all three of them had done, just leaped on someone for proclaiming it odd.

I'd like to go back to this. Why the FoS here? Hum, reading down, you remove it, but it's still interesting to me.

That's the second time Patrick has done that.

Done what?

Jumped on a wagon just as it's taking off.

It wasn't a bandwagon yet, but it definitely had the potential to become one.

Would you like to admit you got it wrong anytime soon? 358 is full of lose. What do you hate about the timing of his votes?

Sikario: Catastrophe?

[Elmo]

Patrick: Basically, I was still thinking. I did something else (can't remember what) in between when I posted I didn't like JDodge's post and when I voted. I didn't actually think Glork would vote him, given he said he was apathetic at that point.

Or something like that. I strongly suspect that didn't make as much sense as I wanted it too.

No kidding. Glork's gotta be 100% certain about who the scum are by the middle of day 1, otherwise he's scummy!!!

Actually, I took care not to make a particular joke about that, because I imagine that kind of thing really grates after a while.

it just feels so weird from someone I've come to expect to be definitive about everything that it needed an answer.

I think you're full of badness. Find a recent game where the contrast would be most striking. I'm fairly neutral towards Glork at the moment, but you're making a big deal out of something that's obviously null. Glork's responses make perfect sense to me, thus far. It's been a slow game, why does he have to have strong suspicions? I didn't until yesterday, and I don't think anyone else did.

This entire line stinks, honestly. Glork has to either argue that he's not a brilliant scumhunter or that he has 100% confidant found scum. This is incredibly unreasonable. I also think he gives you too much leniency because he's had so many people say it before, but I think you're scummy for posing it, because there's no way he can answer right.

On Jdodge: TBH, I have no clue. I haven't been paying attention to him.

This is failure, too. He's on four votes and you devote a single line to him and can't be arsed to reread his all of 20 oneliner posts? Opinions, please, NOW.

I do, in fact, read things, including 358. When he votes apple, apple has my vote (random), and Ripley's vote (why'd apple move his random vote? a very very weak case for a lynch), and apple could use a little more pressure, in my view. It's not looking at all like a lynch-bandwagon. Guess who's originally poking Patrick a little about his vote, here? You're not only wrong, you're BASICALLY PARROTING GLORK WHILE ACCUSING HIM AT THE SAME TIME. His vote on apple is

fine

.

A wagon forms on Andy with the third vote at post 73. I put the forth one on in 86. Patrick posts without voting at 88. Guess who jumps onto the Andywagon next, in 98? One Shanba, to bring it back up to four. Patrick doesn't vote Andy until

247

. What are you smoking? His vote on Andy is

fine

from the view of jumping on a bandwagon that's just taking off. Your accusation is

intensely

hypocritical. Your quiet no-reason vote looks worse, on that note, as it was when Andy

could

have been moving towards a lynch.

I think your argument is terrible, bluntly. 372 gives me really scummy vibes.

I would totally dayvig either JDodge or Shanba. Or both.

[Elmo]

What do you mean about Elmo? I thought he wanted a dead Shanba for Christmas.

ahahahaha

[Elmo]

No. I'm not upset over being lynched. I'm upset over being lynched for

no reason whatsoever

.

yeah, because not giving reasons is scummy

oh wait

[Elmo]

Sikario8 (doctor) protects Shanba

Hahaha.

So, yeah, I can count the number of useful townies on one hand that's had an intimate encounter with a shark. gg scum