Newbie 1732 [Game Over!]: InnocentVille

thenewearth
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Post Post #275  (ISO)  » Fri Aug 12, 2016 7:59 am

If anything its the IC's job to teach you the basics

Its my job to let you see what happens when you do stupid stuff

shannon
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Post Post #276  (ISO)  » Fri Aug 12, 2016 8:11 am

In post 251, 0x40 wrote:Here are my reads so far:
Jibs: Seems to be extremely overconfident in some of his reads, putting shannon at 31% scum for very minor reasons, and townreading Rocnix at 19% scum for seemingly no reason at all. He thinks policy lynching is a good enough of an idea to bring it up, which is insane from a town perspective. Lynching based on policy rather than lynching whoever is the most scummy is extremely anti-town. He wants Chrimi to not get replaced and doesn't give a good explanation why. 32% scum.

Chrimi: Isn't really scumhunting much, is very selective in the questions she chooses to answer, selfvoted during rvs, votes implosion for some strange reason, and doesn't seem to have much of a read on anyone. 30% scum.

thenewearth: Pretty much all her posts are completely useless. Seems to have basically no reads whatsoever on anyone, and has done next to no scumhunting. 27% scum.

shannon: Doesn't seem to have any reads on anyone either, but seems to at least trying to scumhunt. 23% scum.

implosion: Hasn't really given much of a read on anyone since post #33, but that's kinda understandable considering that not much has happened in this game so far. 23% scum.

AstralFlare: Is supposedly working on a readlist that will be posted today. Been actively scumhunting. 22% scum.

PenguinPower: Makes a reasonable case against Chrimi in #110. Has a readlist that makes sense. 20% scum.

Rocnix: Has a readlist that's almost identical to PenguinPower's. Not much else to go by. 23% scum.


I have some questions about this post

1) Why is Implosion excused for not having reads ('kinda understandable considering that not much has happened') but for everyone else it's a negative?

2) How is TNE 'pretty much useless' at 27%, and yet me, implosion, rocnix are at 23% with seemingly neutral reads? Is 4% a significant margin for you?

3) Penguin gets credit for a reasonable case and gets 20%, but people who are not giving reads are only on 22% or 23% ... again, is 2 or 3% really significant?

Isn't this list just a way of saying that everyone is about the same, but you think Jibs and Chrimi are slightly scummier ... I guess I think that the words and %s don't match up.

Finally - aren't you town reading everyone based on this? If no one is more than 50% scum, aren't we all town? So isn't this list kind of ... meaningless?

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Post Post #277  (ISO)  » Fri Aug 12, 2016 9:39 am

Ask and ye shall receive.

Spoiler: AstroFlare's Very Serious Readlist. Casting:
0x40 as town. That's the surprise done with. His style is really confrontational and provocative, far far more so than I would expect from scum. He says he's played lots of IRC mafia. I've played a lot of IRC werewolf. I can say that one of the most common plays I see good town doing is pointing fingers at everyone day one to add pressure. This is the famous reaction test, although I have doubts about how efficient it is in a slower forum format. This is also what he is doing now. Nitpicking, but 108 and 114 are good. This hammering for concrete info is good town play. I have doubts about him wanting everyone's alts, but it can't be denied that his 254 is good.

Implosion as very weak scumlean. I don't know. On reading his ISO, his recent posts seem waffly. 182 in particular. It is flippy floppy sit-on-the-fence, with him looking unwilling to really commit to anything, while simultaneously trying to reserve the "it's late and I'm sleepy" backdoor if he gets called out. In fact, after another readthrough I seem to notice he's just following the flow of the game, following the majority, lynching someone when others do, townleaning someone when everyone else does. Like right now, he says he's re-evaluating me, after Chrimi voiced her opinion that I was scum. His posts thus far have also been more I agree/I disagree. There's a lack of question marks. Not sure if this is a playstyle thing, but even if it is I think he should be more active in scumhunting.

Chrimi is town. Lol. This is based on her 259 readlist and her tone over the past few pages. I don't think scum would build such an awful case on me as well. More on that later.

Jibs is null. Meaning I have no idea what tf is going on with his Rocnix stances but I would hazard a guess that if one is scum the other likely is as well. His Rocnix reads are oscillating around randomly, from town in 181/214 to maybe let's lynch her in 266, because "Idk why". And I don't agree with some of his reads as well.

Rocnix reminds me a lot of myself during my first game. So yeah town or null. Do something interesting please.

Shannon town. Reaction test town, readlist fairly close to mine, cool 276. I'm still expecting that case on Jibs btw.

TNE as very weak scumlean until I get that Shannon case. It's been 6 posts. She's switched her opinion from totoro-san big that it's Shannon/PP, but now has her vote on 0x4x? I'd like an explanation. Her average postlength looks to be about 30 words, and she hasn't posted a readlist yet. Not helping town.

PP as uh, null? I can't tell what you guys find so scummy about him. He hasn't done anything really attention grabbing, his short exchange with Chrimi felt pretty meaningless.

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Post Post #278  (ISO)  » Fri Aug 12, 2016 9:43 am

In post 257, implosion wrote:FTR I really do strongly disagree with the characterization of Chrimi as an anti-town VI. She's providing a lot of reasoned content, and just because you disagree with that content does not make her a VI, or anti-town. This refers to both AstralFlare and 0x40. And I really do think in both of these cases it is mostly just disagreement.


I said she was anti town because she dodged questions and didn't support her claims, not because I disagreed with her. Also her tendency to shove aside anyone who FoSed her as asinine didn't make her look any more townie. Towns try to advance the game, not keep it at a standstill. That's changed since, and I'm glad.

Seeing as I forgot to do so last post,
UNVOTE:

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Post Post #279  (ISO)  » Fri Aug 12, 2016 9:44 am

Seeing as I forgot to do so last post,
VOTE: thenewearth

Keeping this here until I get some reads

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Post Post #280  (ISO)  » Fri Aug 12, 2016 9:46 am

Sorry for the absence...work-related situation came up. So...didn't get answers to all my questions, but there's been enough interaction that I think I can make some reasonable reads based off more than gut. Here we go...

0x40:
Spoiler:
Thanks for finally providing a readlist:
In post 251, 0x40 wrote:Here are my reads so far:
Jibs: Seems to be extremely overconfident in some of his reads, putting shannon at 31% scum for very minor reasons, and townreading Rocnix at 19% scum for seemingly no reason at all. He thinks policy lynching is a good enough of an idea to bring it up, which is insane from a town perspective. Lynching based on policy rather than lynching whoever is the most scummy is extremely anti-town. He wants Chrimi to not get replaced and doesn't give a good explanation why. 32% scum.

Chrimi: Isn't really scumhunting much, is very selective in the questions she chooses to answer, selfvoted during rvs, votes implosion for some strange reason, and doesn't seem to have much of a read on anyone. 30% scum.

thenewearth: Pretty much all her posts are completely useless. Seems to have basically no reads whatsoever on anyone, and has done next to no scumhunting. 27% scum.

shannon: Doesn't seem to have any reads on anyone either, but seems to at least trying to scumhunt. 23% scum.

implosion: Hasn't really given much of a read on anyone since post #33, but that's kinda understandable considering that not much has happened in this game so far. 23% scum.

AstralFlare: Is supposedly working on a readlist that will be posted today. Been actively scumhunting. 22% scum.

PenguinPower: Makes a reasonable case against Chrimi in #110. Has a readlist that makes sense. 20% scum.

Rocnix: Has a readlist that's almost identical to PenguinPower's. Not much else to go by. 23% scum.


Unfortunately, it's pretty crappy. But thanks for summarizing what you've been doing - tunneling Chrimi and being null on everyone else save Jib recently. I do agree with one point: Jib reading Rocnix so towny based on absolutely nothing. At this point, you are either leanscum or strongtown based on your brashness and unwillingness to let go of the alt thing. You never answered my question about your prior experience, so I'm going to assume you have prior experience and go with, this is a play to look town. Leanscum.


AstralFlare:

Spoiler:
Would still like to see your reads:
In post 163, AstralFlare wrote:Any readlists you guys feel like sharing? Mine comes tomorrow.

In post 190, AstralFlare wrote:I've had a third to half of it written out right now, I'm afraid it's going to be a wall. Probably tomorrow night my time. (GMT +8)
Not sure if you were just promising them and then hoping we would forget, or if you just haven't had time yet, but I don't want to let it go. I have you originally as leantown based on your pushing Chrimi - which seemed like trying to move the game forward at the time given what little we had to go on - but you haven't done much since and you haven't delivered on your promise. Null until reads.


Chrimi:

Spoiler:
Yes, I pushed and didn't let go or let it drop for probably too long, and part of that was likely emotional given I don't like being insulted, but part of it was also because we didn't have anything else at the time and trying to get people to weigh in - let me make this clear...NOT ON YOUR ALT USAGE - but on the way that you responded and some inconsistencies, was my way of trying to push forward and get knew insight. I agree the alt thing is NAI, and now that you're getting clear of the 0x40 distraction, I like your reads on 0x40 and AstralFlare, though I think your case is a bit light on AF. Look forward to your real read on 0x40. I made a mistake in my original read...Leantown.


implosion:
Spoiler:
Agree with your thoughts on Rocnix, and I'm glad someone is not townreading her for her open reads - (e.g. Jibs). I disagree with your town read on AF and 0x40, but they are reasoned enough. I'm glad you're going to separate the IC stuff out as that will make me reading your actual play a little easier. I'm hesitant due to past experience with an IC, but I still leantown. Are you going to provide a full reads list?


Jibs:
Spoiler:
Ok, first...I don't like the continued niceness in the posts, especially after the admission that it is fake.
In post 264, Jibs wrote:^__^ my polite demeanor is fake as shit lol.

This does nothing but hide true tone behind a facade of niceness, and makes it harder to get a real tone read. Why would town want to do that? Yes, I originally said it was NAI...I'm not so sure now.

I don't like his townread on Rocnix, which I have already stated, and especially after admitting it was terrible.
In post 181, Jibs wrote:My townread on rocnix is terrible and I should feel bad... but that's how it feels.

The follow up explanation was not much better:
In post 214, Jibs wrote:It is a mystery to me as well, my friend. I remember thinking that 161, and especially the reads on you and Chrimi, felt town.

It's a mystery still? Two sentence reads feel town?

Yes, Jibs is pushing the game forward...but is it to find scum or to manipulate the direction while appearing town? At this point, I don't know...I look forward to hearing more on this:
In post 260, Jibs wrote:I'm townreading Imp, and his points on rocnix feel pretty good, I think I will go back into her ISO.


Nullscumfor now. Will change after his follow up.


Rocnix:
Spoiler:
As I said above, I agree with implosion's read on Rocnix. Her reads are vacillating which is something that would help scum!Rocnix down the road.

I really do not like this:
In post 184, Rocnix wrote:I do not trust 0x40 by any means. It looked like he was tunneling Chrimi, but when he included thenewearth in that attack it looked more like he was targeting anyone who presented the opportunity. He looks like he's searching for an easy lynch, so I have a moderate scumread here.


to this:

In post 262, Rocnix wrote:Based on the sudden attack on Jibs, 0x40 reads like town motivated primarily by OMGUS at this point, so
UNVOTE: 0x40


Why wouldn't the sudden attack on Jibs be another opportunity? Why does it change a moderate scumread to town? Leanscum.


shannon:
Spoiler:
I like the reaction test - at least I do if that was the true intent which I believe it was. I do not like the readlist in as everyone is town or null. Just like Rocnix, it is leaving too much room for denial/movement if needed. I do like that she is not giving Jibs a free pass. So, while I don't list the readlist, we are on a similar page regarding 0x40 and Jibs. Leantown for now. I know this is the least I have said about a read in this post, but I need more to analyze from her.


thenewearth:
Spoiler:
Nope...this is the least I'm going to say. Never answered my question re: shannon's vote. Nothing has really changed in terms of content since my initial read besides the vote on 0x40. Please start posting reads. Null.


Votes look like currently:
Chrimi: AstralFlare; 0x40
thenewearth: Rocnix
Jibs: shannon
Rocnix: implosion
0x40: thenewearth
Not voting: Jibs, Me

Based on my reads VOTE: Rocnix

p-edit:

Looks like AF posted his reads.

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Post Post #281  (ISO)  » Fri Aug 12, 2016 10:00 am

kk point by point rebuttal.

In post 259, Chrimi wrote:Speaking of AstroFlare:
Spoiler: Case
In post 59, AstralFlare wrote:Not voting at this stage is in fact scummy. While it's true that we're on page three, it has been a Very Serious Game so far. We're pretty much out of RVS, and are already very much in actual discussion. Your vote would be valued here as a means to add pressure on someone, so we can gauge their response for any scumminess.

Because.. Not voting at this stage isn't scummy?


And something about the tone of this just strikes me the wrong way. It reads like you're trying really hard to avoid appearing scummy.

Total misrepresentation. I still don't know how the fuck you're hearing tone from a text-based game, but my tone was obviously sarcasm. Not voting during RVS isn't scummy, and I considered us still in RVS because the only people who thought they were "out" of RVS were making dumb votes based on my RVS vote.

You can read tone from text. You can tell from the choice of words and the sentence length whether someone is happy or angry, indignant or afraid. You can tell from how much they write whether they're being defensive or not. You can tell from all of these whether someone is town or scum. Here's a helpful tutorial: http://literarydevices.net/tone/.

In post 60, AstralFlare wrote:To clarify, it makes it seem like you will only do stuff because that will make you look unscummy.

Yes, because I'd selfvote and claim scum in my first post in order to look unscummy and blend in.

I was referring only to the *tone* of that single line.

In post 103, AstralFlare wrote:Penguin has done well, nothing, but I don't think that's uncommon for a game five pages in?

Yet I'm scum for not voting by page 3, right? :b

I never voted you because you didn't vote by page 3. That was just a question. I voted you because you were dodging questions, not supporting your claims, and calling everything you didn't like asinine.

Chrimi: To be honest she sounded very much like outraged townie in her play at the end of page three. Which was fairly solid to me in terms of tone as well as content. But then I completely disagreed with everything she said on Page 4. Her tone shifted as well to become even more defensive, going from outraged townie to afraid scum. I'm happy with where my vote is right now, at least until she continued dodging and stopped supporting her wildest claims. (eg end of 99) (More on this later.)

Page four? Let me see what page four was about... Oh right, it was mine and implosion's disagreement. Let's see what you have to say about that:


On Chrimi's vote on imp: This is OMGUS. It seems from her explanation that this was purely based on a meta disagreement.

Ohhh, right. My disagreement with implosion, which took up most of page four, was based on a meta disagreement. But of course, at the same time, according to you, I was dodging and my "tone" was changing from outraged townie to afraid scum.
Riiight.


Tone I already talked about. You can disagree with someone, while simultaneously dodging their questions and changing your tone? I don't get you at all here.

Other SEs, what do you think of this:

Here in Mafia, when people ask questions, it's generally to try and help find scum. So I usually answer questions with the assumption that they think whatever action they're questioning me about is scummy.

"Please discredit her playstyle!"


I was saying I didn't think this was a good assumption, so I was asking people who are more experienced than me at the game if this is standard.

VOTE: AstralFlare
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Post Post #282  (ISO)  » Fri Aug 12, 2016 10:26 am

In post 266, Jibs wrote:Hello Chrimi!

Tne is apparently tunneling shannon, which is open minded in terms of being wildly at odds with thread sentiment. I guess it's closed minded in the literal sense that she refuses to change her mind.

I don't mean to discount your reads, especially when I'm reading the game so poorly. I will definitely keep af and pp in mind as possible lynches. If you are town, I think it is likely that we will need your vote in order to lynch scum, and I am very happy that you took the time to post a read wall.

If you are scum, your partner is......... Rocnix! Idk why.

So TNE is more open-minded in the sense that she's okay going against thread sentiment.. Yet my read on shannon being town, which is also against thread sentiment, is closed-minded?

It sounds more like you're just confbiasing anyone that thinks shannon is scum because you think shannon is scum.

In post 267, shannon wrote:6. Chrimi (SE) - Still think she's frustrated town.

I post a real case full of content and an in-depth readslist, and this is all you can say about me? :L

In post 277, AstralFlare wrote:0x40 as town. That's the surprise done with. His style is really confrontational and provocative, far far more so than I would expect from scum. He says he's played lots of IRC mafia. I've played a lot of IRC werewolf. I can say that one of the most common plays I see good town doing is pointing fingers at everyone day one to add pressure. This is the famous reaction test, although I have doubts about how efficient it is in a slower forum format. This is also what he is doing now. Nitpicking, but 108 and 114 are good. This hammering for concrete info is good town play. I have doubts about him wanting everyone's alts, but it can't be denied that his 254 is good.

He hasn't said anything about this being a reaction test, stop giving him an out. He's not "pointing fingers at everyone and putting pressure" like you seem to think he is. He's hard tunneling a single player because he doesn't understand that having alts is NAI, same with not wanting to share said alts. You're giving a looot of credit where it isn't due.

Implosion as very weak scumlean. I don't know. On reading his ISO, his recent posts seem waffly. 182 in particular. It is flippy floppy sit-on-the-fence, with him looking unwilling to really commit to anything, while simultaneously trying to reserve the "it's late and I'm sleepy" backdoor if he gets called out. In fact, after another readthrough I seem to notice he's just following the flow of the game, following the majority, lynching someone when others do, townleaning someone when everyone else does. Like right now, he says he's re-evaluating me, after Chrimi voiced her opinion that I was scum. His posts thus far have also been more I agree/I disagree. There's a lack of question marks. Not sure if this is a playstyle thing, but even if it is I think he should be more active in scumhunting.

While I agree with fence-sitting, him re-evaluating you after I told him you're definitely scum and posted a case is super town of him.
I can definitely agree @ the lack of question marks though.

Chrimi is town. Lol. This is based on her 259 readlist and her tone over the past few pages. I don't think scum would build such an awful case on me as well. More on that later.

Scum build awful cases very often, in fact if a case is awful that is usually because it's wrong. The real thing you want to look for is if a case looks like it's coming from genuine town scumhunting, or if it's coming from scum trying to make up reasons to get someone lynched.

TNE as very weak scumlean until I get that Shannon case. It's been 6 posts. She's switched her opinion from totoro-san big that it's Shannon/PP, but now has her vote on 0x4x? I'd like an explanation. Her average postlength looks to be about 30 words, and she hasn't posted a readlist yet. Not helping town.

It's called a joke. And while her posts are small and not huge on content, this is:
1. Per her meta
2. To be expected in most games who are this far into Day One

The abnormality in this game is how much content the rest of us are posting with so little information to go off of, really.

PP as uh, null? I can't tell what you guys find so scummy about him. He hasn't done anything really attention grabbing, his short exchange with Chrimi felt pretty meaningless.

Now this just pings scumteam for me hardcore. No real specifics at all or information, like the rest of your reads had. "He hasn't done anything really attention grabbing" even after making a case on me, tunneling into it before suddenly switching to someone else seemingly out of the blue before I even posted a readslist?

In post 278, AstralFlare wrote:
In post 257, implosion wrote:FTR I really do strongly disagree with the characterization of Chrimi as an anti-town VI. She's providing a lot of reasoned content, and just because you disagree with that content does not make her a VI, or anti-town. This refers to both AstralFlare and 0x40. And I really do think in both of these cases it is mostly just disagreement.


I said she was anti town because she dodged questions and didn't support her claims, not because I disagreed with her. Also her tendency to shove aside anyone who FoSed her as asinine didn't make her look any more townie. Towns try to advance the game, not keep it at a standstill. That's changed since, and I'm glad.

You're misunderstanding.
I haven't changed at all.

I wasn't calling people asinine for FoSing me, and I didn't dodge any questions. I didn't make any claims to support, because I was too busy dealing with several players (mostly 0x40) telling me that I was scum for having alts.
You saying I was anti-town was totally misrep, and now you're misrepping why you did it in the first place. Yuck.

kk point by point rebuttal rebuttal
Spoiler: rebute that shit
In post 281, AstralFlare wrote:
In post 259, Chrimi wrote:Speaking of AstroFlare:
In post 59, AstralFlare wrote:Not voting at this stage is in fact scummy. While it's true that we're on page three, it has been a Very Serious Game so far. We're pretty much out of RVS, and are already very much in actual discussion. Your vote would be valued here as a means to add pressure on someone, so we can gauge their response for any scumminess.

Because.. Not voting at this stage isn't scummy?


And something about the tone of this just strikes me the wrong way. It reads like you're trying really hard to avoid appearing scummy.

Total misrepresentation. I still don't know how the fuck you're hearing tone from a text-based game, but my tone was obviously sarcasm. Not voting during RVS isn't scummy, and I considered us still in RVS because the only people who thought they were "out" of RVS were making dumb votes based on my RVS vote.

You can read tone from text. You can tell from the choice of words and the sentence length whether someone is happy or angry, indignant or afraid. You can tell from how much they write whether they're being defensive or not. You can tell from all of these whether someone is town or scum. Here's a helpful tutorial: http://literarydevices.net/tone/.

Okay, sure, I guess that makes sense. It was just a misrepresentation of how the tone sounded, because obviously, it was sarcasm or annoyance. I even put a question mark to denote the "tone" picking up near the end like you would in a question. So yeah, I'll buy that you can read into tone, but you were still attempting to misrep me.

In post 60, AstralFlare wrote:To clarify, it makes it seem like you will only do stuff because that will make you look unscummy.

Yes, because I'd selfvote and claim scum in my first post in order to look unscummy and blend in.

I was referring only to the *tone* of that single line.

So the tone you supposedly read from that single line contradicted directly with my actions... Great? (That's more sarcasm btw.)

In post 103, AstralFlare wrote:Penguin has done well, nothing, but I don't think that's uncommon for a game five pages in?

Yet I'm scum for not voting by page 3, right? :b

I never voted you because you didn't vote by page 3. That was just a question. I voted you because you were dodging questions, not supporting your claims, and calling everything you didn't like asinine.

Talked about the asinine and dodging questions / not supporting claims earlier in this post, not going to touch on it again (though I would REALLY love you to point out some questions I supposedly "dodged", considering you keep bringing it up).

"I never voted you because you didn't vote by page 3. That was just a question."
So let me get this straight. I haven't done shit, and Penguin hasn't done shit. You ask a haughty question (twice, mind you, bolding it the second time) in which you demand to know why I'm not voting at this point. I assume you were claiming not voting at this point was scummy- otherwise, why ask the god damn question? You don't push Penguin on it at all. The end.

Chrimi: To be honest she sounded very much like outraged townie in her play at the end of page three. Which was fairly solid to me in terms of tone as well as content. But then I completely disagreed with everything she said on Page 4. Her tone shifted as well to become even more defensive, going from outraged townie to afraid scum. I'm happy with where my vote is right now, at least until she continued dodging and stopped supporting her wildest claims. (eg end of 99) (More on this later.)

Page four? Let me see what page four was about... Oh right, it was mine and implosion's disagreement. Let's see what you have to say about that:


On Chrimi's vote on imp: This is OMGUS. It seems from her explanation that this was purely based on a meta disagreement.

Ohhh, right. My disagreement with implosion, which took up most of page four, was based on a meta disagreement. But of course, at the same time, according to you, I was dodging and my "tone" was changing from outraged townie to afraid scum.
Riiight.


Tone I already talked about. You can disagree with someone, while simultaneously dodging their questions and changing your tone? I don't get you at all here.

Again, please quote any questions I supposedly dodged if you're going to make claims like this.. As far as I know I've had a sarcastic tone for most of this game, so I don't know what the fuck you're talking about here.

Other SEs, what do you think of this:

Here in Mafia, when people ask questions, it's generally to try and help find scum. So I usually answer questions with the assumption that they think whatever action they're questioning me about is scummy.

"Please discredit her playstyle!"


I was saying I didn't think this was a good assumption, so I was asking people who are more experienced than me at the game if this is standard.

Yes, but look at the thing you were asking more experienced players about. Here, I'll separate it for you:
Here in Mafia, when people ask questions, it's generally to try and help find scum. So I usually answer questions with the assumption that they think whatever action they're questioning me about is scummy.

I literally stated here that I personally assume when you're questioning someone about an action, it's generally because you think it was a scummy action. You asking other SEs their opinion on it totally reads like "Hey other experienced players, discredit this thing she personally does so I can continue pushing it even though it's a playstyle thing!"

Rebuttal rebuted. Care to try again?

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Post Post #283  (ISO)  » Fri Aug 12, 2016 11:20 am

Hello af!

Thank you for posting your readslist, I will post my reads in a second. It feels like you don't like to change your mind without seeing new information, and you think that it is scum indicative when other people do this... and it is.

To help you understand where I'm coming from, I've never played forum mafia before, but I have played a lot of Avalon irl. This is a game where one town player has essentially complete information, and the rest of town just tries to find and sheep that player while building a town circle. Right now, I have no idea who mafia is, but it feels like some players are reading the game better than others, so I'm trying to find someone with good reads and latch on. I don't know if this is actually a good way to play mafia, but getting a good lynch day 1 seems difficult anyways from the games I've read.

The point is, three different people called me out on my rocnix read, and it's not possible for scumteam to be you+pp+imp. I don't think you would change a read based on people disagreeing, but I 100% would.

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Post Post #284  (ISO)  » Fri Aug 12, 2016 11:44 am

Hello folks!

I have some reads for you people. I don't have the time or energy to maintain my wall of percentages--maybe I will make a new one after we see some flips.

Right now I am living in two worlds. In the first world, imp is mafia going after easy lynches. He casts suspicion on Chrimi early on stuff that he knows is NAI, hoping that it will snowball into a lynch because newb game. He scumreads 0x40 "contingent on his play in the near future", and then takes forever to actually make up his mind on 0x40 being town. He buddies me on my crappy pp push. And finally he sees rocnix's weak looking filter and places a vote.

In the second world, imp is town, those easy lynches are actually just players who look scummy, and rocnix is the scummiest person here. Her read on pp in looks kind of made up: why does she only meta pp and tne in that post? It could be that town!rocnix POEd down to tne vs pp, but then why not say that? It feels more like she figured out two players she wanted to scumread, figured pp was the easier target, and bsed an argument based on his meta. In general, there is not a lot of push from rocnix's play. Not a lot of follow through. It feels more like scum wanting to be pro town than town trying to solve the game.

My town reads are Chrimi, 0x40, and af. All these players are playing in a way that makes sense to me. Chrimi is focusing on players who interact with her and trying to read her wagon. 0x40 is playing a role, but it feels more like a town role than a mafia role. I would love to hear 0x40's thoughts in the postmortem regardless of his alignment. Af looks at how peoples' reads evolve and reads based on that, cf his readlist entries on me, imp, tne.

I am suspicious of imp, rocnix, and tne. I feel like town!tne ties up the shannon narrative before trying an unlikely policy attack on 0x40. If tne is town then I kind of feel bad for undermining her here, but I don't think 0x gets lynched today.

I am unsure about PP, but I believe him when he says that he is making an effort to avoid playing antitown. That feels genuine, regardless of his alignment.

I think we can lynch after resolving peoples questions on tne and, perhaps, me. I don't think we are likely to lynch scum, but we have a lot to go on going into D2.

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Post Post #285  (ISO)  » Fri Aug 12, 2016 12:00 pm

Hello rocnix!

In post 269, Rocnix wrote:(Also, I'm trying to avoid alienating people, because I definitely need information and clarification from the more experienced players, and will continue to need that throughout the game. Asking for opinions is a way to get more info from people without offending them, though based on people's reactions I'm guessing it's not as useful as I thought it was, so I'll try to be a bit more aggressive.)


I wouldn't say this is a scumtell on its own, but "trying to help town" combined with "not really going after scum" usually reads as scummy. Probably one of the more common ways to get scumread before we have any flips.

In post 271, Rocnix wrote:
In post 266, Jibs wrote:If you are scum, your partner is......... Rocnix! Idk why.

(For reference, he was talking to Chrimi)

Okay, I have to question this. Not the fact that he considered me a viable scumpartner for Chrimi, but that he couldn't give evidence.


This feels like a bit of an overreaction. I don't think town takes my bs association this seriously.

On page 1 I unvoted her when she complained about being at L-2, and throughout the argument about the alts I was suspicious of 0x40 and read her as a frustrated townie. IMO this would be really easy to interpret as newbie scum messing up an attempt to bus and then defending their scumpartner. So, I'm not seeing the narrative (or lack thereof?) of town!Jibs. Care to explain?

(Is this a better level of interrogation?)


Stop undercutting yourself here! You have the basis of a good case on me. Try to go back through the thread and find places where I've pushed easy lynches and scumread easy targets. You have a narrative where I have scum agenda Day 1: that's a rare and powerful line of attack.

I feel like you need to vote me if you want your push on me to have any power--I only have two votes so far, and one of them is shannon's trollish "scumteam=imp+jibs" association vote. I think omgus pushes always start off from a disadvantage, so you really need to convince the thread that you think I'm scum. I think trying to recruit people would help, as would talking ominously about how the lynch is imminent. Your best bet for recruits are probably Af and pp, but maybe you could get tne on board.

To be honest, the fact that your vote is prodding tne while you are scumreading me is more of that "helpful to town rather than solving the game" feeling.

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Post Post #286  (ISO)  » Fri Aug 12, 2016 4:11 pm

In post 280, PenguinPower wrote:Rocnix:
Spoiler:
As I said above, I agree with implosion's read on Rocnix. Her reads are vacillating which is something that would help scum!Rocnix down the road.I really do not like this:In post 184, Rocnix wrote:I do not trust 0x40 by any means. It looked like he was tunneling Chrimi, but when he included thenewearth in that attack it looked more like he was targeting anyone who presented the opportunity. He looks like he's searching for an easy lynch, so I have a moderate scumread here.to this:In post 262, Rocnix wrote:Based on the sudden attack on Jibs, 0x40 reads like town motivated primarily by OMGUS at this point, soUNVOTE: 0x40Why wouldn't the sudden attack on Jibs be another opportunity? Why does it change a moderate scumread to town? Leanscum.

0x40 attacked Chrimi, who was under a lot of suspicion at the time, which read scum. 0x40 expanded his attack to thenewearth, who hasn't been participating and wouldn't have a good defense if 0x40 were able to make a case, which read opportunistic scum. 0x40 attacked Jibs, who had support as a contributing member of town, which read OMGUS. My read changed because my information changed. My confidence levels are low in everything I do here. I'm trying to imitate what helps town because I don't know what else to do -- Jibs involved me by asking for readlists, so I tried to involve others by asking for readlists. Implosion says that null reads are scummy (implying that they're unhelpful), so I try and take stronger viewpoints. That is the context of my actions. That will continue to be the context of my actions until I learn how to play this game.

Spoiler: Jibs' latest post
In post 285, Jibs wrote:Hello rocnix!

In post 269, Rocnix wrote:(Also, I'm trying to avoid alienating people, because I definitely need information and clarification from the more experienced players, and will continue to need that throughout the game. Asking for opinions is a way to get more info from people without offending them, though based on people's reactions I'm guessing it's not as useful as I thought it was, so I'll try to be a bit more aggressive.)


I wouldn't say this is a scumtell on its own, but "trying to help town" combined with "not really going after scum" usually reads as scummy. Probably one of the more common ways to get scumread before we have any flips.

In post 271, Rocnix wrote:
In post 266, Jibs wrote:If you are scum, your partner is......... Rocnix! Idk why.

(For reference, he was talking to Chrimi)

Okay, I have to question this. Not the fact that he considered me a viable scumpartner for Chrimi, but that he couldn't give evidence.


This feels like a bit of an overreaction. I don't think town takes my bs association this seriously.

On page 1 I unvoted her when she complained about being at L-2, and throughout the argument about the alts I was suspicious of 0x40 and read her as a frustrated townie. IMO this would be really easy to interpret as newbie scum messing up an attempt to bus and then defending their scumpartner. So, I'm not seeing the narrative (or lack thereof?) of town!Jibs. Care to explain?

(Is this a better level of interrogation?)


Stop undercutting yourself here! You have the basis of a good case on me. Try to go back through the thread and find places where I've pushed easy lynches and scumread easy targets. You have a narrative where I have scum agenda Day 1: that's a rare and powerful line of attack.

I feel like you need to vote me if you want your push on me to have any power--I only have two votes so far, and one of them is shannon's trollish "scumteam=imp+jibs" association vote. I think omgus pushes always start off from a disadvantage, so you really need to convince the thread that you think I'm scum. I think trying to recruit people would help, as would talking ominously about how the lynch is imminent. Your best bet for recruits are probably Af and pp, but maybe you could get tne on board.

To be honest, the fact that your vote is prodding tne while you are scumreading me is more of that "helpful to town rather than solving the game" feeling.

The lack of detail there was NAI; the town!Jibs narrative was "slightly too lazy to read through the whole forum". I was trying to imitate shannon's reaction gambit, but no one else cared, so it looks like that didn't work. I find it interesting that you encouraged the push rather than defending yourself (ie, Mafia!Jibs is trying to get Town!Rocnix to make an easily dismissed case, or Town!Jibs is trying to get mafia!Rocnix to slip up and recruit their scumpartner). I also find it interesting that you did so in a way that even I would notice ("talking ominously" is not the most subtle of phrases).

In and , Jibs joined Chrimi's wagon and brought up meta as an argument.
In , he noticed shannon's gambit and jumped off the Chrimi wagon. He followed up on shannon's behavior in .
The rest of the forum is vaguely in recent memory, and Jibs has been townish in general there.
...Yeah, there's no case based on "places where [Jibs has] pushed easy lynches and scumread easy targets."

My conclusion is that Jibs is teaching me how to play the game here (thank you!). He basically told me to go support my arguments and listed a couple common scumtells. Maf doesn't gain anything from turning a suspicious townie into something more competent, so Jibs reads town.

I'm being kicked off the computer, so I'll leave my vote on thenewearth for now and reevaluate when I get back.

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Post Post #287  (ISO)  » Fri Aug 12, 2016 5:53 pm

In post 285, Jibs wrote:
In post 271, Rocnix wrote:
In post 266, Jibs wrote:If you are scum, your partner is......... Rocnix! Idk why.

(For reference, he was talking to Chrimi)

Okay, I have to question this. Not the fact that he considered me a viable scumpartner for Chrimi, but that he couldn't give evidence.


This feels like a bit of an overreaction. I don't think town takes my bs association this seriously.


New players take that kind of stuff seriously. He took my "Spooky, I don't want to be at L-2!" seriously as well. (Which is what lead to me saying it was a joke.)

It's definitely NAI for Rocnix.

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Post Post #288  (ISO)  » Fri Aug 12, 2016 6:11 pm

Back.
UNVOTE: thenewearth
I'm not going to get anything out of her unless the rest of town joins in to create some serious pressure.

Spoiler: A case against implosion
In post 285, Jibs wrote:Try to go back through the thread and find places where I've pushed easy lynches and scumread easy targets.

This was Jibs' advice in building a case against him, but IMO it applies to Implosion slightly better, in the sense that he's being very careful to cover himself. In posts , , and , Implosion scumreads but does not vote Chrimi (who is at that point at L-2), and explains why we should wait before voting to lynch her. Regardless of whether Chrimi turned out town or scum, Implosion can say he acted correctly. In , Implosion tells Chrimi why her accusation against him doesn't make sense. He's defending himself rather than moving the game forward. In Implosion takes the opportunity do dismiss his fight with Chrimi as irrelevant, now that town is more or less convinced that she's a frustrated townie. In posts and , Implosion gives null reads on 0x40 and Chrimi. Implosion corrects 0x40's assumprions (who is only at L-3 but is definitely not popular), but reads his play as NAI. 0x40's OMGUS behavior means that, if Implosion voted for him, Implosion could expect a kneejerk reaction, so the null reads are again the safest response.
about covers my thoughts on post .
In post 182, implosion wrote:all of those are subject to change and my reads aren't particularly strong even for being this early in the game


And so, Implosion is behaving more like an impartial mediator than a townie. While some of it can be attributed to IC motivations, the presence of IC doesn't excuse the lack of town. If I'm reading correctly, Implosion's motivation is to protect himself, not expose scum.

(I'm not including my thoughts on Implosion's voting for me in order to keep the OMGUS out of my case, but I'd be happy to provide them separately if someone asks.)


Therefore:
VOTE: Implosion

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Post Post #289  (ISO)  » Fri Aug 12, 2016 8:04 pm

Hello 0x40.

I guess I should reply to your points on me.

In post 251, 0x40 wrote:Here are my reads so far:
Jibs: Seems to be extremely overconfident in some of his reads,


That doesn't make me mafia.

putting shannon at 31% scum for very minor reasons,


My reasons were fine.

and townreading Rocnix at 19% scum for seemingly no reason at all.


This is a good point.

He thinks policy lynching is a good enough of an idea to bring it up,


I think policy lynching is a terrible idea, which is why I said we can't do it.

He wants Chrimi to not get replaced and doesn't give a good explanation why. 32% scum.


As I said, I think it will be even harder to read a replacement. Nobody in the thread, except for you, wanted Chrimi to get replaced--there cannot be 8 scum in this game.

I think you would do your whole schtick, with the twisting peoples' words and "you will explain this" tone, as either alignment. I am leaning town on you right now mostly because of af's read, but I would feel a whole lot better about you if you came back into the thread and started telling people I was mafia =/

There is still time to post while we are waiting for tne to say something alignment indicative.

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Post Post #290  (ISO)  » Fri Aug 12, 2016 10:01 pm

In post 289, Jibs wrote:That doesn't make me mafia.

Acting like you know more about people's alignment than you should is a scumtell, because only scum could really know everyone's alignment at this point.

In post 289, Jibs wrote:My reasons were fine.

The reasons were valid, but very minor. Certainly not something that should add up to 31 scum%. Did you have any other reasons to scumread shannon at that point that you haven't mentioned?

In post 289, Jibs wrote:I think policy lynching is a terrible idea, which is why I said we can't do it.

You said that policy lynching me "might be nice," and "absolutely cannot afford to right now" seems to imply that it could be a good idea later. Can you explain why you even bought up policy lynching if you think it's such a bad idea?

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Post Post #291  (ISO)  » Fri Aug 12, 2016 10:02 pm

AstralFlare wrote:Implosion as very weak scumlean. I don't know. On reading his ISO, his recent posts seem waffly. 182 in particular. It is flippy floppy sit-on-the-fence, with him looking unwilling to really commit to anything, while simultaneously trying to reserve the "it's late and I'm sleepy" backdoor if he gets called out. In fact, after another readthrough I seem to notice he's just following the flow of the game, following the majority, lynching someone when others do, townleaning someone when everyone else does. Like right now, he says he's re-evaluating me, after Chrimi voiced her opinion that I was scum. His posts thus far have also been more I agree/I disagree. There's a lack of question marks. Not sure if this is a playstyle thing, but even if it is I think he should be more active in scumhunting.

I mean, this is sort of true. But you ignore the things I've done that haven't been following at all (notably both of my votes). I'm reconsidering you because there was a case on you that I haven't read yet and it's possible that case has substance. Would you rather I be obstinate, and unwilling to change my opinions?

I'm willing to accept the characterization of my play as waffly. It's just a byproduct of me not being confident in things yet.

As for Rocnix's case:

In posts 78, 79, and 80, Implosion scumreads but does not vote Chrimi (who is at that point at L-2), and explains why we should wait before voting to lynch her. Regardless of whether Chrimi turned out town or scum, Implosion can say he acted correctly.

I wouldn't say I was scumreading her at that point. I was suspicious enough that I would have voted her had she not been at L-2, but I thought there was a decent chance that her response to me would diffuse my suspicion.

In 84, Implosion tells Chrimi why her accusation against him doesn't make sense. He's defending himself rather than moving the game forward.

Two things here. One, defending yourself is a part of the game, and does itself move the game forward because it helps others form reads on you. Two, I personally as a player tend to focus on defending myself whenever there are any existing attacks against me that I haven't refuted. I've had games as town where I've been just completely unable to get into the game and wound up lurking as a result, and the only way that I really managed to stop lurking was when there was pressure on me. I just don't like being incorrectly read as town.

In 156 Implosion takes the opportunity do dismiss his fight with Chrimi as irrelevant, now that town is more or less convinced that she's a frustrated townie.

I disagree that town is more or less convinced that she's a frustrated townie (or was at that point) - at that point (at least I think at that point) both AF and 0x40 were scumreading and pushing her.

Implosion gives null reads on 0x40 and Chrimi. Implosion corrects 0x40's assumprions (who is only at L-3 but is definitely not popular), but reads his play as NAI. 0x40's OMGUS behavior means that, if Implosion voted for him, Implosion could expect a kneejerk reaction, so the null reads are again the safest response.

I mean, a townread would accomplish the same thing here. I also don't think I would be particularly scared of giving a full scumread on him here if I were scum - he wasn't really being arbitrarily OMGUS-y, he was tunneling Chrimi for the alt thing.

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Post Post #292  (ISO)  » Fri Aug 12, 2016 10:16 pm

Read Chrimi's case on AF. Most of the points she makes are decent in the sense that they're pretty strong evidence of him being scum if she's right about how she's interpreting them, but it looks to me like Chrimi is interpreting pretty much everything AF has said in a scummy light, or like she's assuming worst intentions. In particular calling post 59 a misrepresentation and her interpretation of him saying "Other SEs, what do you think of this" both strike me as looking at the worst possible reason he could have said those things - the former to me is not even really a representation at all, just an opinion, and the latter obviously could also just be AF wanting a second opinion. The strongest point she makes is that he called her scummy for not voting but didn't call PP scummy for not contributing content, but his response is reasonable and again just makes me think that it's a difference in how they're interpreting the game (like Chrimi said she views questions as implying scumreads, while it sounds like AF doesn't).

So I'd still call him town. I see where he was coming from on the Chrimi read and I also like him 180ing and now calling her town since the reasons for his scumread have faded, so I'd expect him to re-evaluate her if he's town.

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Post Post #293  (ISO)  » Fri Aug 12, 2016 10:28 pm

In post 255, Chrimi wrote:0x40, next post: "We should policy lynch Chrimi for not giving her alts up"

When did I ever say anything about policy lynching you?

In post 255, Chrimi wrote:Yes, telling a player you wish they would replace out is fucking rude.

I'm posting in this thread not because I want to be nice to people and make friends or whatever, but because I want to win the game. I want you to replace not because I want to be rude, but because I think it would benefit town more if you did.

In post 255, Chrimi wrote:I consider myself a pretty decent player.

Let's just agree to disagree on this one. I don't think convincing a VI that they're a VI is really worth the effort.

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Post Post #294  (ISO)  » Fri Aug 12, 2016 10:31 pm

In post 290, 0x40 wrote:Acting like you know more about people's alignment than you should is a scumtell, because only scum could really know everyone's alignment at this point.


As mentioned above, I acknowledge that my 19% townread on Rocnix in was a bad read with bad reasoning, and I can definitely see how that could read as TMI. I haven't posted any other strong townreads. If that's your reason for scumreading me, I'm okay with it, but I still think you have to consider other players.

I don't see how you could feel that my 31% scumread on shannon was tmi without shannon's flip, especially when you seem to be reading her as town in .

In post 289, Jibs wrote:My reasons were fine.

The reasons were valid, but very minor. Certainly not something that should add up to 31 scum%. Did you have any other reasons to scumread shannon at that point that you haven't mentioned?
[/quote]

Mainly it was just overconfidence due to this being my first time playing this game. I also added a couple points to try to make my push feel stronger. It's really hard to pressure someone with a 29% read. In the future, I don't think I will give percentages--better to let people wonder.

In post 289, Jibs wrote:I think policy lynching is a terrible idea, which is why I said we can't do it.

You said that policy lynching me "might be nice," and "absolutely cannot afford to right now" seems to imply that it could be a good idea later. Can you explain why you even bought up policy lynching if you think it's such a bad idea?[/quote]

I brought it up to head off crap like , , and . If you had continued to tunnel Chrimi for several more rl days without posting any other legit reads, I would have considered PL, and I think you would do the same in that situation.

Your posting here is good, but it feels a little bit like you are going through the motions. I would like to see you either push me harder using other stuff I've posted (I mean look at my readlist in ffs, that's like a flashing SCUM AGENDA sign) or explore other options besides me and Chrimi.

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Post Post #295  (ISO)  » Fri Aug 12, 2016 10:37 pm

In post 280, PenguinPower wrote:You never answered my question about your prior experience, so I'm going to assume you have prior experience and go with

Pretty sure I answered this when you asked me the first time. I've played a good amount of irc mafia, but this is my second game of forum mafia. I'd say I'm about as experienced as an IC, but not as familiar with the site meta, and not as used to the much slower pace of forum mafia compared to irc.

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Post Post #296  (ISO)  » Fri Aug 12, 2016 10:47 pm

In post 282, Chrimi wrote:
In post 277, AstralFlare wrote:0x40 as town. That's the surprise done with. His style is really confrontational and provocative, far far more so than I would expect from scum. He says he's played lots of IRC mafia. I've played a lot of IRC werewolf. I can say that one of the most common plays I see good town doing is pointing fingers at everyone day one to add pressure. This is the famous reaction test, although I have doubts about how efficient it is in a slower forum format. This is also what he is doing now. Nitpicking, but 108 and 114 are good. This hammering for concrete info is good town play. I have doubts about him wanting everyone's alts, but it can't be denied that his 254 is good.

He hasn't said anything about this being a reaction test, stop giving him an out. He's not "pointing fingers at everyone and putting pressure" like you seem to think he is. He's hard tunneling a single player because he doesn't understand that having alts is NAI, same with not wanting to share said alts. You're giving a looot of credit where it isn't due.

Fair enough. I can see where this comes from. I was just stating some of the reasons why I townread him, and wasn't trying to decrease pressure on him. This is very town from you though.

Implosion as very weak scumlean. I don't know. On reading his ISO, his recent posts seem waffly. 182 in particular. It is flippy floppy sit-on-the-fence, with him looking unwilling to really commit to anything, while simultaneously trying to reserve the "it's late and I'm sleepy" backdoor if he gets called out. In fact, after another readthrough I seem to notice he's just following the flow of the game, following the majority, lynching someone when others do, townleaning someone when everyone else does. Like right now, he says he's re-evaluating me, after Chrimi voiced her opinion that I was scum. His posts thus far have also been more I agree/I disagree. There's a lack of question marks. Not sure if this is a playstyle thing, but even if it is I think he should be more active in scumhunting.

While I agree with fence-sitting, him re-evaluating you after I told him you're definitely scum and posted a case is super town of him.
I can definitely agree @ the lack of question marks though.

Chrimi is town. Lol. This is based on her 259 readlist and her tone over the past few pages. I don't think scum would build such an awful case on me as well. More on that later.

Scum build awful cases very often, in fact if a case is awful that is usually because it's wrong. The real thing you want to look for is if a case looks like it's coming from genuine town scumhunting, or if it's coming from scum trying to make up reasons to get someone lynched.

Does your case on me looks like it comes from genuine town scumhunting, or is it coming from scum trying to make up reasons to get me lynched? I think it's the former, although very misguided.

TNE as very weak scumlean until I get that Shannon case. It's been 6 posts. She's switched her opinion from totoro-san big that it's Shannon/PP, but now has her vote on 0x4x? I'd like an explanation. Her average postlength looks to be about 30 words, and she hasn't posted a readlist yet. Not helping town.

It's called a joke. And while her posts are small and not huge on content, this is:
1. Per her meta
2. To be expected in most games who are this far into Day One

The abnormality in this game is how much content the rest of us are posting with so little information to go off of, really.

Now you're the one taking pressure off someone else. Why are you defending her? SHe has been really unhelpful, and you should helping to put pressure on her so we can tease something out.

PP as uh, null? I can't tell what you guys find so scummy about him. He hasn't done anything really attention grabbing, his short exchange with Chrimi felt pretty meaningless.

Now this just pings scumteam for me hardcore. No real specifics at all or information, like the rest of your reads had. "He hasn't done anything really attention grabbing" even after making a case on me, tunneling into it before suddenly switching to someone else seemingly out of the blue before I even posted a readslist?

He explained that, and I accepted it.

In post 278, AstralFlare wrote:
In post 257, implosion wrote:FTR I really do strongly disagree with the characterization of Chrimi as an anti-town VI. She's providing a lot of reasoned content, and just because you disagree with that content does not make her a VI, or anti-town. This refers to both AstralFlare and 0x40. And I really do think in both of these cases it is mostly just disagreement.


I said she was anti town because she dodged questions and didn't support her claims, not because I disagreed with her. Also her tendency to shove aside anyone who FoSed her as asinine didn't make her look any more townie. Towns try to advance the game, not keep it at a standstill. That's changed since, and I'm glad.

You're misunderstanding.
I haven't changed at all.

I wasn't calling people asinine for FoSing me, and I didn't dodge any questions. I didn't make any claims to support, because I was too busy dealing with several players (mostly 0x40) telling me that I was scum for having alts.
You saying I was anti-town was totally misrep, and now you're misrepping why you did it in the first place. Yuck.


Oh, yes you've changed from
Jibs, congratulating implosion on getting me to say something about alignment, as if we were into the game enough that I had been avoiding it for any particular amount of time, is asinine.
implosion attempting a serious case on me before page 5 is asinine, hence why I don't take his case seriously at all.
Penguin assuming that an SE telling him that information doesn't benefit town is somehow scummy, is asinine. I'm telling you that alts don't benefit town much as an SE, regardless of my alignment.
0x40, I do have a good reason, and you whining about it when having alts isn't game related in any way is asinine.
Jibs, assuming shannon is scum because she has literally nothing to go on because it's page five is asinine.
Astroflare is just being asinine in general, especially with the misreps after I explained that one is a fucking hydra.

to
In one you were lashing out at anything you disagreed with, in another you were providing actual discussion.

kk point by point rebuttal rebuttal
Spoiler: rebute that shit
In post 281, AstralFlare wrote:
In post 259, Chrimi wrote:Speaking of AstroFlare:
In post 59, AstralFlare wrote:Not voting at this stage is in fact scummy. While it's true that we're on page three, it has been a Very Serious Game so far. We're pretty much out of RVS, and are already very much in actual discussion. Your vote would be valued here as a means to add pressure on someone, so we can gauge their response for any scumminess.

Because.. Not voting at this stage isn't scummy?


And something about the tone of this just strikes me the wrong way. It reads like you're trying really hard to avoid appearing scummy.

Total misrepresentation. I still don't know how the fuck you're hearing tone from a text-based game, but my tone was obviously sarcasm. Not voting during RVS isn't scummy, and I considered us still in RVS because the only people who thought they were "out" of RVS were making dumb votes based on my RVS vote.

You can read tone from text. You can tell from the choice of words and the sentence length whether someone is happy or angry, indignant or afraid. You can tell from how much they write whether they're being defensive or not. You can tell from all of these whether someone is town or scum. Here's a helpful tutorial: http://literarydevices.net/tone/.

Okay, sure, I guess that makes sense. It was just a misrepresentation of how the tone sounded, because obviously, it was sarcasm or annoyance. I even put a question mark to denote the "tone" picking up near the end like you would in a question. So yeah, I'll buy that you can read into tone, but you were still attempting to misrep me.

In post 60, AstralFlare wrote:To clarify, it makes it seem like you will only do stuff because that will make you look unscummy.

Yes, because I'd selfvote and claim scum in my first post in order to look unscummy and blend in.

I was referring only to the *tone* of that single line.

So the tone you supposedly read from that single line contradicted directly with my actions... Great? (That's more sarcasm btw.)

In post 103, AstralFlare wrote:Penguin has done well, nothing, but I don't think that's uncommon for a game five pages in?

Yet I'm scum for not voting by page 3, right? :b

I never voted you because you didn't vote by page 3. That was just a question. I voted you because you were dodging questions, not supporting your claims, and calling everything you didn't like asinine.

Talked about the asinine and dodging questions / not supporting claims earlier in this post, not going to touch on it again (though I would REALLY love you to point out some questions I supposedly "dodged", considering you keep bringing it up).

"I never voted you because you didn't vote by page 3. That was just a question."
So let me get this straight. I haven't done shit, and Penguin hasn't done shit. You ask a haughty question (twice, mind you, bolding it the second time) in which you demand to know why I'm not voting at this point. I assume you were claiming not voting at this point was scummy- otherwise, why ask the god damn question? You don't push Penguin on it at all. The end.

Chrimi: To be honest she sounded very much like outraged townie in her play at the end of page three. Which was fairly solid to me in terms of tone as well as content. But then I completely disagreed with everything she said on Page 4. Her tone shifted as well to become even more defensive, going from outraged townie to afraid scum. I'm happy with where my vote is right now, at least until she continued dodging and stopped supporting her wildest claims. (eg end of 99) (More on this later.)

Page four? Let me see what page four was about... Oh right, it was mine and implosion's disagreement. Let's see what you have to say about that:


On Chrimi's vote on imp: This is OMGUS. It seems from her explanation that this was purely based on a meta disagreement.

Ohhh, right. My disagreement with implosion, which took up most of page four, was based on a meta disagreement. But of course, at the same time, according to you, I was dodging and my "tone" was changing from outraged townie to afraid scum.
Riiight.


Tone I already talked about. You can disagree with someone, while simultaneously dodging their questions and changing your tone? I don't get you at all here.

Again, please quote any questions I supposedly dodged if you're going to make claims like this.. As far as I know I've had a sarcastic tone for most of this game, so I don't know what the fuck you're talking about here.

Other SEs, what do you think of this:

Here in Mafia, when people ask questions, it's generally to try and help find scum. So I usually answer questions with the assumption that they think whatever action they're questioning me about is scummy.

"Please discredit her playstyle!"


I was saying I didn't think this was a good assumption, so I was asking people who are more experienced than me at the game if this is standard.

Yes, but look at the thing you were asking more experienced players about. Here, I'll separate it for you:
Here in Mafia, when people ask questions, it's generally to try and help find scum. So I usually answer questions with the assumption that they think whatever action they're questioning me about is scummy.

I literally stated here that I personally assume when you're questioning someone about an action, it's generally because you think it was a scummy action. You asking other SEs their opinion on it totally reads like "Hey other experienced players, discredit this thing she personally does so I can continue pushing it even though it's a playstyle thing!"

Rebuttal rebuted. Care to try again?
[/quote]

I don't see any value in continuing this part of our discussion. I would rather be analyzing the posts of people who are currently null for me and asking questions rather than defending myself over nothing.

Rocnix
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Post Post #297  (ISO)  » Fri Aug 12, 2016 11:03 pm

Implosion's defense makes enough sense as town. We were reading the situation differently, so he responded in ways that didn't quite make sense to me.
UNVOTE: Implosion

VOTE: thenewearth and this time I'm going to leave it there until she does something. AstralFlare, you care about this too, so hold me to that.

Shannon, I have a bit of an oddball question for you (or anyone who would like to throw in their two cents): Who do you think is in the most danger of being nightkilled?

implosion
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Post Post #298  (ISO)  » Fri Aug 12, 2016 11:20 pm

And now I want to call rocnix townier. That's a really, really weird 180 to make if she's scum. She just got a case on me and I think it's not that hard to rebut what I said if she's scum and wants to keep pushing.

I'm actually ironically gonna join the tne wagon for now, I know I called her gut town just a little earlier but I think some pressure on her right now will be beneficial - her unexplained vote on 0x40 is a bit troubling, particularly if it's the obvious justification of him pushing on the alt stuff which imo is a bit one-dimensional to push on without further explanation. She hasn't really said anything of substance in the past couple of days. She's implied some stuff wrt shannon but never really explained it or followed up on it, and has been getting bogged down in the 0x40-Chrimi interaction even after she pointed out that it's probably best to ignore it.

Unvote
VOTE: thenewearth

I think I'm starting to get a better handle on reads this game. I actually think Rocnix's push on me was somewhat town and her backing off has cemented that it looks to me like it's coming from a genuine interest in finding scum. AF is still town, Jibs is still town, 0x40 is likely town. Chrimi is moderately townish at this point as well I think, or at the very least the way she's been playing the game is enough for me to not really be interested in lynching her today. shannon still has a little bit of towncred but we'll see how the game plays out because I'm not confident on her in any capacity yet. Penguin/tne are where I think I'll focus my efforts for a bit unless I see good reason to look elsewhere. I am interested in what tne was looking at with respect to shannon.

implosion
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Post Post #299  (ISO)  » Fri Aug 12, 2016 11:21 pm

(I believe that's L-2 but am not 100% certain).

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