Do you believe in evolution?

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Do you believe in Evolution?

Yes, it is how we got to where we are now
125
78%
No, there is no chance of evolution
12
7%
In theory yes, but we didn't come from primates
17
11%
Unsure
7
4%
 
Total votes: 161

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Post Post #71 (isolation #0) » Thu Sep 27, 2007 1:26 am

Post by Adele »

Dani Banani:
I find your questions very worthwhile. I consider myself to have a reasonable grasp on evolution (it’s a vast topic) and a good grasp of the fundamentals of it, and a great grasp of the philosophical and theological ramifications.

This is quite an extended (and badly structured) reply to your questions. It’s intended to be informative, rather than argumentative, so I’d be grateful if those who disbelieve in evolution refrained from using it in their counterarguments. It covers an intended illumination of the process of evolution, the fundamental logic behind it, and the theological ramifications. It excludes the breadth and depth of evidence in favour of evolution and the counterarguments presented by the more fundamentalist religious, some of which are, in my own opinion, breathtakingly spurious.

I’d like to begin by asking you to consider the following:


1. If your parents have a particular, heritable trait, then you are more likely to have it than your peers
2. If that trait assists in survival or breeding, then you are more likely than your peers to have and raise many children who will inherit that trait
3. If that trait is disadvantageous to survival or breeding, you are less likely than your peers to have and raise many children who will inherit that trait
4. Therefore, those genes that cause traits that are advantageous to survival and breeding will become more common in each generation than its predecessor and those that cause disadvantageous traits will become less common

5. Over time, the population will accumulate advantageous-trait genes in a number of different areas; the correct height, intelligence, weight, social skills – always bearing in mind that extremes of a positive trait tend to have disadvantages (very tall people need more nutrition and may starve in a famine; also, they may be in worse danger of injury, so height will reach an equilibrium position; which is why, even though it’s way cool to be tall, there are no 10-foot men)

OK, so do me a favour now, stop and think for a minute about the claims I make above.

Given the above – I hope you get it – can you imagine a population
not
becoming “better adapted” over time?

OK. When we determined that the universe was expanding, and that there was no plausible reason that the universe should switch between expanding and contracting, we worked backwards and thought “huh. At some point, it must have been
well
tiny”

Similarly, working backwards, doesn’t it seem
inevitable
that our distant, distant ancestors were slower, more foolish, and weaker (The Neg-lympics!)?

OK.

How do new species arise? This is complex, and I’ve put together the following… well, fable, I suppose.
Imagine a land with about forty tribes (or herds) of a particular species. At the beginning of this tale, there is a mixture of slowish, thoughtful and of fastish, aggressive individuals. All the tribes on the island periodically intermingle. Then one day a river or iceberg or whatever appears and the east and west are separated (for simplicity’s sake).
In one tribe, a disease wipes much of the population. It happens to take most of the slower, more thoughtful individuals and leave the faster, more aggressive ones more relatively intact. This tribe becomes unusually good hunters. When mingling and interbreeding with nearby tribes on the east side of the island, over a hundred generations this inclination to be faster and more aggressive becomes commoner, as more are successful in this way, and so it becomes the norm as people move towards a carnivorous diet.
At the same time, on the west side of the island (btw I swear to god this isn’t a political commentary), a tribe begins to specialise in farming. They make a particular technological advance such that they can produce more through farming than any have before. The faster, more aggressive members cannot compete with the slower more thoughtful ones at farming, and even when they hunt, they do not provide so well. So the tribe (and by extension, the surrounding tribes) begins to tend more towards slowness and thoughtfulness and move towards an omnivorous diet.
Now, the east side is tending more strongly over another hundred or so generations towards carnivorousness. As people with sharper teeth become better eaters, so over generations people develop sharper teeth. As people with sleek, runners bodies catch more food, so over generations people develop sleeker, faster bodies. As the capacity to digest vegetation becomes redundant, less bodily resources tend to be dedicated to this and people begin to lose the
ability
to digest vegetation.
Meanwhile on the west side teeth become suited to a vegetarian diet, bodies become stolid and hefty, but they maintain the ability to eat meat although it’s not a primary source of food, as it is occasionally necessary during famines or in winter.
So, geology being what it is and all, one day the big MacGuffin separating the Westers and the Easters vanishes. Ooh, that tricksy geology. The Westers and Easters meet and mingle. There is experimentation with breeding between the tribes. While the genetics have not yet changed to the extent that the two sides cannot interbreed, there is a higher chance of miscarriage. That, however, isn’t the biggest problem. When the child was born of members of two tribes, obviously he’d be raised by his mother. So women in the West tribes would raise children who’d grow sick on vegetables, while women in the East would be mystified as to how to get their pudgy, slow-moving sons and daughters up to speed. It was just no good. Over time, inclination to breed with those from the other side of the island was an unsuccessful strategy, and so became rare, and became obsolete.
Two hundred generations on (and obviously I’m no expert, but probably more than 2 hundred) and there have been changes to the genetic make-up of the westers and easters. These include changes to the reproductive system – interbreeding is no longer even possible.

OK. So, it’s a crude demonstration, and an even cruder claim, but imagine for a moment that the tribes at the
beginning
of the story resemble Labradors, and the Easters at the end are like Lions and the Westers like Horses. It wouldn’t take four hundred generations but tens or hundreds of thousands, and obviously it wouldn’t necessarily take the above course or anything. But I hope it goes some way to both explaining how species might split off, and also how
arbitrary
the whole thing can be – it really is a ridiculous fluke that any species developed the way it did; including humans. There’s nothing “special” or “pinnacle-ish” about us. Nor does evolution work towards a goal; it’s a matter of who survives each generation, of cumulative changes, like the water in a river doesn’t plan to follow the course of the river, but goes where it’s pulled by all that influences it. If you catch my meaning.

I want to be clear on the matter of where new species come from.
In the Easter/wester example above, at no point is one generation a different species than the one before. However, the neither the end-point easters nor the westers could, if they went back in time, breed with their so-distant ancestors. The analogy I’m going to choose to call on is that of languages. Where do new languages come from? Languages change over time until they are entirely different than they once were and from other languages with the same root. At no point is what people speak an entirely different language than the day before, or year or decade or even century before. Yet, from Latin two thousand-odd years ago we’ve generated about a dozen distinct languages (species) each with several dialects within (races / breeds). Of course, different languages can merge, while different species cannot. That’s the relevant distinction. If you can breed with someone, you’re the same species. If not, you aren’t.

Now, macro-evolution is the process – to date and ongoing – whereby all species are adapted by their surroundings in a much more complicated way. There are splits and extinctions and migrations and all sorts going on all the time.
Why did the appendix shrink when it became pointless? Because it takes energy to support a full-size appendix. Energy that, when chased by a predator, when seriously ill, when experiencing a famine, when pregnant, has better uses elsewhere. People with smaller appendixes stood a better chance, so each generation had a smaller average appendix than the generation before.

I’d also like to state for the record that the separation of man into different areas round the globe was extremely recent, in evolutionary timescales, and the differences between races are very much skin-deep: Colour is the most noticeable, with vulnerabilities to certain illnesses varying, height, and dietary intake having a minor effect (relative commonness of lactose intolerance among Asians, for example). They’re shallow levels of differences; we’re fundamentally the same.

So, what does this mean for religion? Well, it has few options available to it. The problem is twofold: the beauty of and the evidence in support of evolution, and the biblical story of the Garden of Eden.

What was meant by the story of the Garden of Eden, of Adam and Eve and all that jazz? If it’s a claim that that’s how God actually made all life, then there’s a strict opposition between the claims of the bible and the claims of the scientific community. You gotta choose between God and logic. But it’s not so simple as that. Jesus spoke in parables; he never claimed that there ever actually
were
any good Samaritans.
Genesis doesn’t have a preamble. What if it’s not there to explain
how
God created life, but why? To explain why things are the way they are; why women suffer in childbirth, why men must work for food, why serpents lack legs: because God willed it so, because all these beings have done wrong in some way. Heck, if life on earth is separate from the kingdom of Heaven, and sin constitutes separateness from God, isn’t sin unavoidable? So this could be a parable of God’s decision to have a land that is not blessed by his continued presence, and which will have sin,
but
that he still reserves the right to call the shots as he sees fit.
Or it could be a simple origin myth, like those found in Greek and Norse mythology. Heck, read Just So stories and the early parts of Genesis start to make you feel very uncomfortable. Humans tell stories. It’s what we do. What if somebody wrote an untrue story about the origins of man that somehow – completely innocently – got folded in to the Book Of Truth, the Holy Bible of God? Priests aren’t all-knowing, you know – we can tell by looking at those that we have today – maybe one was once fooled by a conman.
Maybe God created life through evolution. I mean, he’s not just very, very smart – he’s omniscient. Stands to reason he could guide the seemingly-random forces of evolution to the result he wanted. A nudge here, an extinction there… and all so that we would arise. Pretty flattering, no? And, of course, it’s pretty complicated and confusing, and the people 3000 BC weren’t ready for it, so he explained it in simpler terms.

Terry Pratchett coined the term “Lies to Children”. You start off telling them that atoms are like really, reeeeelly small soccer balls because it’s simple. Then you expand – well electrons whiz around the nucleus following set paths – like an orbital path. Then, when they study at a more advanced stage, you tell them, well, we
think
the electron isn’t
actually
anywhere, but have a potential, a likelihood of being in certain places.

In this scenario, yes, Genesis would be “Lies to Primitive Humans” but the point is not all lies are given with the purpose of deceiving; Lies to Children are given with the intention of explaining as best you can to a limited person. Not exactly False Witness.

So, the most popular ways of dealing with evolution by religious folk:
1. Evolution is a lie propagated by Satan / Evil Scientists / Well-meaning but wrong scientists, and the Bible is the true, 100%-accurate Word Of God
2. God guided evolution, and the Story of the Garden of Eden was never meant to be taken so literally
3. God guided evolution, and the Bible, while inspired by well-intentioned and holy men, contains some errors
4. God’s not like people. It’s a force, a fundamental spirit throughout the universe. Jesus was a good man who presented good morals to live by; by observing the good bits of the bible and ignoring the bad, one may assemble a worthwhile ethic to live by. Best not to get hung up on what exactly is “true” and all that, but humankind evolved within the Universe (kind of pantheism)
5. Evolution just happened; doesn’t need a mastermind, it’s self-sustaining and don’t multiply entities without necessities please. God didn’t decide it. While the Bible contains some truth, so does “The Time Traveller’s Wife” – it’s essentially a work of fiction, a result of the delusions, fantasies and lies of “Holy Men” through the ages. There is no God.

In case you’re curious, I come down in box 5. If you’ve been raised a creationist, I’d expect you to be most comfortable with box 2, possibly box 3. You must understand, I grew up not even hearing of creationism. Where I come from, if you’re religious you pretty much believe 2 or 3 (or both, you know). If you’re spiritual you believe 4 and if you’re an atheist, strong or weak, you’d tick box 5 if you had to pick any (because these boxes are crude descriptors).

I hope that this has illuminated the scientific beauty and underlying systems of evolution (I’ve opted to exclude descriptions of how the theory has changed and been supported time and again by evidence, not to mention the scientific enquiry engaged in with the presumption of evolution which keeps being successful as you would only expect it to if evolution is true). I hope I’ve also adequately explained why this doesn’t necessarily explode peoples’ faiths, although those who believed in God merely because “how else did we get here?” are freed from belief by the “theory” of evolution. If you believe in a God of the Gaps – a kind of Duct-tape to cover over all the stuff you don’t understand – then evolution reduces your need for God. However, evolution only actually
contradicts
fundamentalism. There are other ways to believe, such that evolution is a happy coexister to God.

I’d like to wind up, for those of you who are familiar with evolution and found this post at best dull, at worst and naïve misstatement and a “lie to children” itself, with this, from a previous co-worker of mine:

Joe: If evolution is true, then how come chimpanzees stopped evolving?
Me: [stunned silence]
Joe: [triumphantly] See, you can’t answer!
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Post Post #89 (isolation #1) » Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:53 am

Post by Adele »

Dani Banani wrote:[I'm] interested in reconciling how evolution fits into a spiritual belief that the Bible is the word of God...
Wikipedia wrote:Most contemporary Christian leaders and scholars from mainstream churches, such as Anglicans and Lutherans, reject reading the Bible as though it could shed light on the physics of creation instead of the spiritual meaning of creation.
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Post Post #111 (isolation #2) » Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:17 am

Post by Adele »

That's a really immature approach to the matter, Alasdair. Baldly calling folk "silly" and calling it the same as gravit, atoms or germs is absurd, though; you are ignoring the fact that erstwhile accepted scientific theories have fallen out of vogue.

Do you believe in Steady State Theory? The Electromagnetic Ether?
How about superstring theory, for something that may be seen as more "true" than gravity as you conceive it some way down the line?

And, I gotta say, I don't think it's an impressive "look at me!" thing to manage to believe something that's not true at the same time as blindly saying whatever your fifth grade science teacher told you.
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Post Post #119 (isolation #3) » Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:37 am

Post by Adele »

It's fun being completely misunderstood! :D

reread my post and you'll see I'm clearly not a Christian.
Read all my posts in this thread and you'll see where I stand on Evolution.

However, you clearly don't understand what science
is
, since the word "tentative" is apparently not part of your vocabulary. The fact is that there are scientists who don't agree with the "theory of gravity" (if you are referring to the Newtonian construct, it'd be most; if Einsteinian, fewer, but still plenty). The word for those people is not "silly" but "potentially groundbreaking".

You are dogmatic in your approach to this matter, and condescending besides. It makes me think that your understanding of the subject is limited to the first - or perhaps second - round of "lies to children" you got fed. Newsflash: Reality is more complex and elegant than is dreamed of in your philosophy.
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Post Post #123 (isolation #4) » Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:43 am

Post by Adele »

vollkan wrote:
Alasdair if you believe in evolution, how do you explain the FACT that the earth is only 6000 years old?
I don't need to explain that "FACT" because it is a complete falsehood. The very fact you are raising it undermines your credibility from the get-go.
Vollkan just got successfully trolled.

I think TheNinthLayer deserves a round of applause!
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Post Post #143 (isolation #5) » Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:04 am

Post by Adele »

Alasdair wrote:Cool, knowledge is refined and improved over time, thanks for the input!

Watch me do this too

Do you believe in Odin? Zeus? Thor? No? They fell out of favour huh.

I'm going to toss this silly Bible out
Good boy. Well done.

And if you aren't willing to admit you COULD be wrong, how do you propose to refine and improve knowledge?
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Post Post #145 (isolation #6) » Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:11 am

Post by Adele »

I'm saying, "you could be wrong" about
anything
you believe. Hence tentative - you should approach all knowledge with this attitude, not accept what Sir says as definate until proven otherwise.

If I were to find evidence disproving evolution, you would be forced to admit - not that you
could
be wrong - but that you
are
wrong. In lieu of that evidence (which I don't expect to ever come to light), though, you should recognise that you
could
be wrong.

Also, if you're gonna troll, get better at it. Saying "I'm here to fuck with so-and-so"? It's just more support for my growing theory that you aren't very bright.
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Post Post #147 (isolation #7) » Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:18 am

Post by Adele »

Alasdair wrote:
Adele wrote:Image
Actually, that's your best-constructed post to date. I'm proud of you.
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Post Post #153 (isolation #8) » Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:27 am

Post by Adele »

1. I didn't come here specifically to fuck with people, but to communicate with them
2. I'm willing to accept at least the possibility that the scientific community may be wrong on any given subject, and that I may be similarly mistaken
3. 2+2=4 is mathematics. The terms "2", "4", "+" and "=" were not discovered but defined such that the statement "2+2=4"
is
true. Science is tentative, maths is absolute.
4. Your final statement doesn't seem to relate to anything... at all.
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Post Post #157 (isolation #9) » Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:31 am

Post by Adele »

IH wrote:Xdaamno....

gah, that was not a proper reply to assume you were automatically wrong. [/lack of self confidence]
He was, though.

I mean, he shouldn't take TNL's word for it...

but he was.
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Post Post #164 (isolation #10) » Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:41 am

Post by Adele »

TheNinthLayer wrote:
Adele wrote:1. I didn't come here specifically to fuck with people, but to communicate with them
2. I'm willing to accept at least the possibility that the scientific community may be wrong on any given subject, and that I may be similarly mistaken
3. 2+2=4 is mathematics. The terms "2", "4", "+" and "=" were not discovered but defined such that the statement "2+2=4"
is
true. Science is tentative, maths is absolute.
4. Your final statement doesn't seem to relate to anything... at all.
LOL YOU BELIEVE IN GRAVITY LOL DONT BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOUVE READ was you like literally 4 posts back.

And as to 4. I can't help you if you don't understand simple logical argument. I guess that's why you don't believe in gravity.

-Ninth
Which point did the first sentence relate to? Can you quote me?

as to 4. "Hey guys the earth isn't 6000 years old, btw I have no proof but yeah facts could be wrong!" is not a "simple logical argument". You see, a logical argument presents one or more premises and then presents a conclusion that follows from these premises.
It's your bad luck that the person you accused of not understanding a simple logical argument has studied the subject of logic in some depth. It would be unfair to hold that against you. I'm willing to pretend from here on in that that didn't just happen :)
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Post Post #167 (isolation #11) » Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:46 am

Post by Adele »

TheNinthLayer wrote:
Adele wrote:It's fun being completely misunderstood! :D

reread my post and you'll see I'm clearly not a Christian.
Read all my posts in this thread and you'll see where I stand on Evolution.

However, you clearly don't understand what science
is
, since the word "tentative" is apparently not part of your vocabulary.
The fact is that there are scientists who don't agree with the "theory of gravity"
(if you are referring to the Newtonian construct, it'd be most; if Einsteinian, fewer, but still plenty). The word for those people is not "silly" but "potentially groundbreaking".

You are dogmatic in your approach to this matter, and condescending besides. It makes me think that your understanding of the subject is limited to the first - or perhaps second - round of "lies to children" you got fed. Newsflash: Reality is more complex and elegant than is dreamed of in your philosophy.
Okay it was 5 of his posts ago I'm sorry.

-Ninth
Oh, you were referring specifically to my posts. I didn't realise. If you check that quote again, you'll note what I'm really saying is not that I don't believe in gravity, nor that gravity doesn't exist, but that both the major predecessor to and the current theories of gravity (as in, the working of it) have their detractors within the scientific community. We don't have a Grand Unified theory, because the best theories we have for how things work on the micro- (quantum physics) and macro-level ("the theory of gravity" among others) are contradictory in their nature.

So that I may more preciesly address your points, would you be willing to describe the theory of gravity as you understand it? Thanks

-->Simulpost insert: What does ITT stand for?
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Post Post #169 (isolation #12) » Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:49 am

Post by Adele »

Thanks.

TNL, you seem to be deliberately ignoring what I put in brackets because it undermines your point.
Last edited by Adele on Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #171 (isolation #13) » Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:52 am

Post by Adele »

I don't know...
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Post Post #180 (isolation #14) » Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:01 am

Post by Adele »

TheNinthLayer wrote:
What'd you put in brackets again?

Anyway you're defending people that don't believe in gravity (I'm sure you could find "scientists" that believe in dragonkin and things like that) more or less for the sake of doubt, so basically in mafiascum terms your argument is based on wifom.

-Ninth
1. In brackets, directly after saying that some scientists take issue with the theory of gravity, I clarified what I meant by that - specifically the Newtonian and Einsteinian explanations.

2. By "scientists" I mean "scientists" - qualified individuals who are recognised by the scientific community as authorities in that particular area. Superstring theorists and all sorts of other things that I'm not an authourity on, but recognise that this is an ongoing area of scientific inquiry.
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Post Post #186 (isolation #15) » Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:09 am

Post by Adele »

Oh bloody hell. What's all that got to do with anything? Way to cut-and-paste to teach your grandmother to suck eggs. WIFOM is not relevant to this discussion.

If TNL believes he has found a flaw in my reasoning, he should be able to demonstrate it without converting it to mafia terms; philosophical debate got by just fine prior to mafia. WIFOM's a famously vague term in any case. It serves a functional job in-game, but otherwise? Say what you mean.

-->simulpost edit:
1. Yes, you call them parentheses in the US. We call them brackets in the UK. This is an international site. Roll with it.
2. What
is
dragonkin? I'm talking about the scientific community at large; peer-reviewed journals.

You keep refusing to define your terms, explain your points. You willfully misunderstand others to present a straw man for you to demolish, but if others cannot understand your use of jargon and "arguments" that are not arguments, then they are at fault.

C-. Must Try Harder
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Post Post #191 (isolation #16) » Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:16 am

Post by Adele »

he asked if TNL knew what WIFOM is. He was asking him to justify his accusation towards me.

He was not asking you to post an extensive analysis of the etymology and value of wifom. If you posted it to get attention, that's ok; but it's not a public service, and it was off-topic.
TNL wrote:You keep flip-flopping on the issue of gravity when clearly we are rooted on the ground are we not? See you got called out on it and now you're backpedaling.
I'm not flip-flopping in the least. Is that what you think the "theory of gravity" is? That stuff has weight?
That's not a theory, but an observed fact. The theories of gravity relate to the hows and whys.

If alasdair agrees with your apparent belief of what the "theory of gravity" means, then it wasn't a fitting analogy; genes are an observed fact, but evolution is a theory based on this and many other observed facts. If he agrees with mine, then he's wrong to say that those who question it are necessarily silly, stupid or ignorant.
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Post Post #194 (isolation #17) » Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:26 am

Post by Adele »

The pope and I disagree on a multitude of topics.

The Vatican, however, does not claim that the pope is completely infallible.
TNL wrote:Hey those are your words not mine, you refuted the theory or gravity. Are you living in space or something because seriously everyone knows gravity is real, just like everyone knows evolution is false. There's no empirical evidence to demonstrate the contrary.
1. When you say I refuted the theory of gravity, you are saying I successfully debunked it. When you use words you don't know the meaning of, unfortunately you'll sometimes say the opposite of what you'd like to.
2. Yes, I know that there exists and attraction between bodies of mass. I have never said otherwise
3. The fact that you refer specifically to empirical evidence underlines my point. Are we discussing the fact of gravity or any one of the theories of gravity? How does gravity exist? Why? Is it a force? A manifestation of curvature in space-time? It's very simple:
Fact of Gravity = True
Any given Theory of Gravity = Possibly False

Hope that helps.
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Post Post #196 (isolation #18) » Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:29 am

Post by Adele »

No, you weren't; this thread was long dead before alasdair necro'd it.

'sides, in GD derailings are semi-acceptable
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Post Post #202 (isolation #19) » Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:35 am

Post by Adele »

TheNinthLayer wrote:
1. You're arguing semantics because you don't have a real argument, just like you did with brackets vs. parentheses.
Oh. :(. I thought I was being nice, correcting your error and giving you helpful advice for the future.
TNL wrote:2. How do you know? Did somebody tell you? You shouldn't believe in things people tell you, they lie all the time!
don't forget your medication tonight.
TNL wrote:3. See you're backpedaling, now you're agreeing with gravity again.
With the fact, yes. With the theory, no.
TNL wrote:Also you didn't answer my point about you being a 9/11 truther. Why are you trying to dodge the question
I'm worried that if I answer, you'll fall into the trap of ad hominem arguments. I want to protect you from that indignity
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Post Post #204 (isolation #20) » Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:40 am

Post by Adele »

Aisar wrote:
Adele wrote:
TheNinthLayer wrote:
1. You're arguing semantics because you don't have a real argument, just like you did with brackets vs. parentheses.
Oh. :(. I thought I was being nice, correcting your error and giving you helpful advice for the future.
TNL wrote:2. How do you know? Did somebody tell you? You shouldn't believe in things people tell you, they lie all the time!
don't forget your medication tonight.
TNL wrote:3. See you're backpedaling, now you're agreeing with gravity again.
With the fact, yes. With the theory, no.
TNL wrote:Also you didn't answer my point about you being a 9/11 truther. Why are you trying to dodge the question
I'm worried that if I answer, you'll fall into the trap of ad hominem arguments. I want to protect you from that indignity
Why do you not believe in gravity? I'm really confused here. Do you not think things have weight?
goodness gracious.
"Gravity exists": Yes
"Gravity exists as a result of xyz": Maybe

So. Yes, things have weight. That is the fact of gravity. The whys and wherefores - the theories of gravity, of which there are several - any and
all
of the ones in current existence may be false.
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Post Post #207 (isolation #21) » Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:43 am

Post by Adele »

TheNinthLayer wrote:
Adele wrote:
TheNinthLayer wrote:
1. You're arguing semantics because you don't have a real argument, just like you did with brackets vs. parentheses.
Oh. :(. I thought I was being nice, correcting your error and giving you helpful advice for the future
TNL wrote:2. How do you know? Did somebody tell you? You shouldn't believe in things people tell you, they lie all the time!
don't forget your medication tonight.
TNL wrote:3. See you're backpedaling, now you're agreeing with gravity again.
With the fact, yes. With the theory, no.
TNL wrote:Also you didn't answer my point about you being a 9/11 truther. Why are you trying to dodge the question
I'm worried that if I answer, you'll fall into the trap of ad hominem arguments. I want to protect you from that indignity
So you're a 9/11 truther then?

You believe in a conspiracy involving like 5000+ government agents, hundreds of congressmen and senators, the millitary, Osama Bin Laden, tons of security guards and building owners and all three major news outlets.

For a person that studied logic, you're not very logical.

-Ninth
I'm not answering one way or the other - and blessed if you didn't trip up anyway. You're like a five-year-old with candles. Poor dear boy
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Post Post #211 (isolation #22) » Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:47 am

Post by Adele »

I believe that a there is an attraction between bodies of mass.
I believe that any theory as to what causes this attraction, though, MAY be false.

Babysitting you guys has been fun, but I have to go do grown-up things soon, so why don't we wind this up? You guys pretend to be utter morons and I'll pretend to take you at face value.

go.
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Post Post #214 (isolation #23) » Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:50 am

Post by Adele »

Which theory, specifically?

What are the actual claims of the theory you are referring to? I'd hate to talk about the wrong one.
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Post Post #216 (isolation #24) » Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:52 am

Post by Adele »

Yes, we've agreed to talk about something with that name.
What are the actual claims of the theory you are referring to?
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Post Post #220 (isolation #25) » Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:54 am

Post by Adele »

No, dear, that's a fact: we have directly observed the attraction between bodies of mass. That exists. But that's not the theory of gravity.

Try again. I believe in you!
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Post Post #225 (isolation #26) » Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:00 am

Post by Adele »

I believe in the fact of gravity. "Gravity exists" is not a scientific theory. Therefore "gravity exists" is not "the theory of gravity".
Dizzycow wrote:adele why do you have to be condescending? your arguments, though requiring a bit more explanation, aren't bad enough for you to have to get so defensive
I gave advice to this particular group of scummers earlier in this very thread on how better to troll (don't admit that you're doing it). They're following it. I'm flattered and am happy to play along. however, I have been perfectly clear on the distinction that I have drawn between the fact of gravity and the theory of gravity. There may be things I've said that have genuinely confused them - this ain't that. I'm being trolled and I'm having a blast, but I really do have to go soon.
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Post Post #226 (isolation #27) » Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:01 am

Post by Adele »

Aisar wrote:
DizzyCow wrote:i think adele is just saying that the specifics of any theory about gravity are in doubt but she believes in gravity overall; she just didn't get it across very well

is this right?
??? Is this like how some people believe in the Bible but don't believe in religion?

I've never understood that, the Bible is very clear on religion, just like gravity is very clear on it's theory.

If you believe in gravity, you have to believe in the theory of gravity, because of the Bible.
Heh. See, dizzycow?

No, it's like how people can believe that God exists without being, say, Roman Catholics.
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Post Post #228 (isolation #28) » Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:06 am

Post by Adele »

Yes, but unfortunately that thread presumes the very error they keep making to not be an error.
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Post Post #230 (isolation #29) » Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:41 am

Post by Adele »

There is evidence that supports the theory of evolution and relatively little that appears to undermine it.
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Post Post #232 (isolation #30) » Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:49 am

Post by Adele »

TheNinthLayer wrote:
But you just chewed out Alasdair for believing in evolution.

So do you believe in evolution or don't you?

-Ninth
I chewed out Alasdair for failing to bring a tentative approach to science.

Yes, I believe in evolution. It seems extremely probable to me.
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Post Post #234 (isolation #31) » Fri Oct 19, 2007 12:29 am

Post by Adele »

DizzyCow wrote:
Adele wrote:I chewed out Alasdair for
failing to bring
a tentative approach to science.
Adele wrote: However, you clearly don't understand what science
is
, since the word "tentative" is apparently not part of your vocabulary.
lol he doesnt even know what it is but hes the one that brought it? this isnt a game of mafia you shouldnt try to take other peoples arguments out of context
He didn't bring it. That's the problem.
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Post Post #246 (isolation #32) » Mon Oct 22, 2007 4:33 am

Post by Adele »

Sarcastro wrote:Earth is not a closed system, and you're completely misunderstanding the Second Law of Thermodynamics. Then again, you're probably doing so intentionally.
No, I'm afraid that entropy is considered by many creationists - especially those in the ID movement - to be the silver bullet for evolution.
_____

When you take a new pack of cards and shuffle it, it becomes more disordered (on average, obviously). Shuffle it again and it becomes still more disordered. Shuffle it a third time. Seriously, do. Then glance through the pack and see the lack of a pattern. Then deal out to yourself and two or three friends. Play "Cheat". Then, when a big stack has arisen, grab it (your friends will be annoyed at your disruption of the game but don't let this stop you) and look through it. It's not ordered, is it? Not perfectly. But it's a good deal easier to predict what's coming next than it would be with the thrice-shuffled pack you had earlier.

now, could someone who knows what they're talking about tell me if that's a good analogy or not?
With the cards being like genes or genetic sequences and survival over a course of generations being the game; order arises because that's where the "path of least resistance" lies; and that's what entropy really is, that things will follow the path of least resistance.

Like a river will become bendier (more complicated) as a simple result of water going faster on the outside of kinks and slower on the inside. Depositing on the inside and eroding the outside, causing big meanders in the river; wouldn't a face-reading of entropy claim that rivers should be straight? Same for fjords.
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Post Post #259 (isolation #33) » Sun Oct 28, 2007 5:38 am

Post by Adele »

Foolster41 wrote: The odds are I believe 10 to the 100th power.
A Googol? Really? Seems awfully round. Seems like a guesstimate to me, if not outright bollocks.
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Post Post #263 (isolation #34) » Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:52 am

Post by Adele »

Seol wrote:
Yosarian2 wrote:The Fermi Paradox (basically, "considering how common life should be, why haven't they found us yet?") is an interesting point, but it dosn't say really anything about the frequency of life in the universe. At most, it might say something about the frequency of intellegent life that dosn't destory itself or otherwise die off before leaving it's own solar system, and even that is subject to debate. Again, we can't know how common life is until we have a bigger sample size.
It may also be that interstellar transport is simply impractical, and every star has intelligent life around it that just hasn't chosen to brave the void of space.

Or maybe they did, but the dark matter ate them. It's 90% of the mass of the universe, and it's
still
hungry.

Or maybe did, and they came here, and now they're wondering why we didn't return the call they left 2,000 years ago.
oh, that was me, sorry. I
meant
to, but then Buffy was on, and I forgot.
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Post Post #273 (isolation #35) » Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:50 am

Post by Adele »

Foolster41 wrote:Thew number was an approximate of something I heard somewhere. Or I had thought I had remembered from somewhere. My memory is most likely wrong. It seems beside the point anyway. It was not meant as a hard number (Though I suppose I should have said i was estimating.)

I understand that eclipses is hardly neccisery for life, but it is one more feature that shows up nowhere else that seems to have the sole purpose of being for the species on that planet's visual enjoyment. It's not a major proof, but a small thought.
See, but if we didn't have them, it would
never occur
to us that we lacked them. We don't sulk for lack of Saturnic rings, do we? How many other "cool" properties did we miss out on that we don't miss - because you can't miss what you never had?

On the same note, in how many alternate universes are we, like, way angry because we never developed? I'm guessing
lots
.
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Post Post #300 (isolation #36) » Tue Nov 06, 2007 9:20 am

Post by Adele »

/agree with Seol that religion's not necessary for morality - philosophy can generate normative ethics, as can the memes he himself mentions.
Sarcastro wrote:Eh, that article said some weird things. How can you blame Stalin's atheism for
anything
? He never even
claimed
to be motivated by atheism, he was just totally ruthless. If you want to say that that was because of his atheism, well, okay (though I don't think there's any evidence for that besides the idea that atheists are evil), but the purges still weren't
motivated
by atheism by any stretch of the imagination. Stalin did what he did because he was ruthless, not because he was crazy (like, say, Hitler). So no, I don't think it's equivalent to people saying that you can't say there's something wrong with religion because all the genocidal maniacs weren't "true Christians/Muslims/whatever".
Less
sure about that. Maybe not Stalin - I'm no expert on him - but "Social Darwinists", Nietszheans and the like to represent a certain materialistic, monist, humans-have-no-intrinsic-worth atheism about them. It's easier to kill folk if they're just meatbags, I suppose. In fact, the part of me that thinks maybe Hitler was agnostic/atheist underneath it all kinda thinks that's the idealogy that drove
him
.
--> See also Machiavelli. Amoralism and monstrous selfishness
make sense
for an atheist of... a certain worldview.

Which is not to say mine. <.< >.>
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