Mini 1818: Princess Bride Mafia (Game Over!)

[MagnaofIllusion]

/confirm

All I have to say to Infinity is …

[MagnaofIllusion]

Infinity’s Primate vote is bad …

His entrance was slightly awkward and he didn't question me when I called him scum for it, just said "nope".

You missed that this isn’t Road to Rome I guess.

Yeah, I have to agree that claim was pretty terrible. If you're negative utility, wouldn't it help town more for you to actually be NKed than a useful role?

Nope. While the over-explanation was not well thought out immediately claiming a negative utility role Day 1 (Miller, Ascetic, etc) is Pro-Town and not “terrible”

VOTE: Shaddowez

Why not?

daykill:DPR

Just stop. This sort of obvious hurr-hurr fake Daykill was cliché and boring in 2011.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Do you really want to play with that gimmick alt? I don't

No, I don't. But a fake-daykill isn't going to solve that particular problem. Why not vote him on policy then?

Why are you being incredulous about my fake dk shot? I'm mostly showing my dislike of the gimmick alt and hoping that kuroi forgets my real role and day kills them.

or maybe I'm crumbing a role...

Let me consult Magic 8 Ball -

"Magic 8 Ball ... are either of these a greater than 0.0001% possibility"

"Signs point to No"

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MOD

– please confirm that the following is correct …

Shaddowez - (1/7) - MagnaofIllusion, RachMarie

--

VOTE: Peter Elric

Someone seems to know that Massive can’t possibly flip scum and that is coloring his interactions with Nero.

--

Yeah all the Double Voter talk is interesting. Rach’s reaction at 108 is the most suspect so far. Double Voters are clearly more likely to be Town (about a 70% rate based on some research that was done recently) but it clearly isn’t an absolute. So her “I can’t imagine that role as scum” reaction feels to me like someone who definitely knows Farside is Town and is looking for Town cred.

@Rach

– is the very first part of Nero’s 137 accurate?

--

MoI you're going to have to explain why you called me out for a bad vote on page 2 lol

Because I can. As you said – “it is RVS I will play like I want”.

That said – your reasoning is pure garbage. You tossing a naked “Scum” assessment on someone on Page 2 and having it met with a “Nope” is not indicative of a scum reaction. Sorry to burst your bubble but it isn’t. Primate gave you a completely appropriate level of response. It isn’t “touchy” or an overreaction. It is meeting fluff with fluff. Which is clearly NAI.

Why are you so worried about me calling your page 2 reasoning bad? I mean it is but I would not find it alignment indicative.

I actually have never seen a scum player who looks like he's saying everything that comes to his mind, and that's the feeling I get from nero.

For someone who has your join date this is awfully bad. Have you never read a single game with someone like Fate or Faraday as scum?

@Farside

– I’d really like to hear your thoughts on that sort of “Playstyle as Alignment Indicative” argument given you seemed to gloss right over it.

--

I agwee with Infinity, I fought vat wesponse fwom Pwimate was scummy as weww.

Then given I’ve explained above why it isn’t in any way I’d like to see why you think it is. Go!

Vis is somefing I can agwee wif you on, I can see why it's not necessawiwy ve best idea, too howevew.
Do you weawwy fink it's wurff a vote on Shaddowez?

Are you really asking me if on Page 3 I think even the smallest hint of possible scum intent is worth a vote?

Yes is the answer.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I have never seen scum double voter and I would think it would make the scum team overpowered.

yeah he has done it and I have called him on it before TOO I find the fake dayvig thing annoying, Still overall, I like playing with trolly Nero over scum Nero. Now in the last game we were together he was SCUM AND I KNEW IT grumble grumble grumble cop guilty and nked on night 1 lol

If this game is Role Madness then it certainly is possible for scum to have a Double Voter as balance purposes. I seriously doubt that it is Role Madness so I think the possibility is pretty remote. You've been around long enough that I'm a little skeptical that you've never run across a scum doublevoter.

So what am I supposed to take away from the second part? That you acknowledge that Nero is capable of manipulating his meta? I'm unclear on what you are trying to say here.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Are you still thinking that shad is kinda scummy or are you moving him to a town read MoI?

Since he hasn't posted since I made my initial vote on him my read hasn't changed. Why would you think he's anything but Page 3 scummy given that?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Not saying it can't happen. Her play though feels townie as well. So I stick by my read of putting her in the town pile.

Do you mean Nero here?

I think Nero is Town and I'm trying to assess how Town I think your reasons for reading him as such is. If it isn't Nero I'm lost - who is it?

As to the Open Game - my read on you was mostly driven by Ocean not your play.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I already PMed the Mod before the thread was open and anyone who has every played with me should already know but ... V/LA til Monday morning.

I'm very much looking forward to any sort of content from Shadow after the weekend.

Peter still looks very much like newb scum especially after that last response.

I'm not sure what the hell DPR is on about Dayvigging given Rach gave no indication that Massive was scum in her mind.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Back from V/LA …

First things first – this game is not a Bastard game (as specified in the Mini Theme sign-up thread) so the VT flip on Massive means that it is driven by another player. By this point if it was a Town role is should have been claimed so it is safe to assume it is a scum power.

Infinity’s start of day reaction at 184 looks suspect. Scum do have a tendancy to grandstand when something Town doesn’t expect happens. 187 also looks like scum saying “Aw shucks, the Vig shouldn’t have shot Town, oh well” to me.

@Infinity

– why didn’t you even consider that voting right away might not be the best course of action?

@Nero

– same question to you.

--

Sorry for making people wait for these, but last night it was getting late and I had to get off, and now I have to get off for family reasons. Sorry, I know this is suspicious, see you tomorrow(night).

On the heels of “Oh I’m new” I really, really don’t like his posting. Instead of giving any reads or content we get paragraphs answering questions that aren’t game relevant and lines like the above in regards to issues that are game relevant. And then we get 254 …

I’d probably be voting here if caution wasn’t necessary.

--

I think town!primate was more likely to question why I said it was scum rather than just say nope. Obviously it's a weak read.

Why do you think Town Primate should give two cents about a page 2 naked “This is scum” statement? I’m deadly serious on this. If Primate is Town he knows you have absolutely no role information that is coloring that claim so it looks like, at best, a crappy reaction test. Scum tend to be more jumpy about being called out for non-transparent reasons.

No, I have never seen fate or faraday as scum. However I have read a shit ton of games and never seen scum fake posting whatever they're thinking so yeah.

If you have read as many games as you are claiming here I highly doubt you haven’t come across a single player whose play-style is free-wheeling.

--

Could the vig have been usable in daytime too? I'm thinking maybe

Might be the diff between a dead town dayvig... and daykiwwing scum that's stiww awive.

As I mentioned in my quick V/LA these posts are a suspect.

@DPR

– what about Rach’s posting makes you consider this at all?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Moi: is there a reason you think Primate doesn't deserve pressure?

Since I don't think that ... no.

Is there a reason you fabricated my stance in this question?

[MagnaofIllusion]

It's seems your going off on Infinity for voting Primate, called the vote bad and a crappie reaction test.
You literally posted that Infinity motives were purely scum motivated so I'm trying to get why that is when it could be as simple as to push Primate to do something more.

We are talking about a vote from Page 2. Infinity keeps defending it as not terrible and bringing it back up so the conversation has continued as I try to assess Infinity's alignment.

Now you are peddling that somehow Infinity on Page 2 was trying to get Primate to "do more"? That's doesn't make any sense.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Oh for fuck's sake why do you care,

it's not like scum!me is going to push a mislynch based on 2 1-word posts...

I think it would be odd for town!primate to be called out specifically over everyone else, so I expected him to question that.

I care because my job is to find scum. That job entails following up on behavior I find suspect and using it to sort the other players.

Your reaction to being called out on your vote dinged my scumdar. I personally don't see why hypo!TOwn you included the bolded as that is looks like you are softly trying to discredit me by representing my inquiries as absurd.

...so you're saying I'm lying? I'm just telling you my experience, there might be a case where scum looked like town just posting all their thoughts when they came up but I forgot it. In any case that's very rare.

It’s possible. Scum have a motivation to do that. Frankly anytime I see someone taking what is a play-style and using it an excuse to alignment read player as Town my instinct is to poke there because that is the kind of weak excuse Scum use to justify their Town reading.

[MagnaofIllusion]

DGB’s entrance at first glance looks very structured to my eye. Literally she manages to hit the following “Look I’m Town” points in that initial string of posts.

1. Self-Voting (which Massive has shown to come from Town) with a healthy sprinkling of “Woe is me” throw in.
2. “Oops the person I claimed scum via secret scum tell actually flipped Town – I must be Town for not knowing she died”. Ranger tried this exact maneuver in Open 633 – ( see post 1159 in this thread http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p7868241 ).
3. Jokingly calling Farside her “scum-buddy”.

On another note I think the post restriction is completely made up. DGB missed it for at least 4 posts in here initial salvo and then suddenly remembers in 274. I didn’t really buy it when Roberts floated in an out of it during the start of today .

I don't cawe I suppose

I was thinking maybe just bweak the westriction untiw I am modkiwed?

Wouwd you want me to bweak the westriction untiw modkilled?

This makes no sense. If you are VT as you claim then Roberts had no reason to lie about the Mod lifting his post restriction. In fact you should be able to have him do the same for you. Yet you spin it off as a reason for frustration.

--

I’m also struggling with Farside’s alignment. Set-up spec says that she’s very likely Town but her approach doesn’t feel exceeding Town to me. The constant refrain with Nero of “You are making mountains out of molehills” feels like subtle undermining. I also don’t like her attempts to misrep my position on Infinity vis-a-vie Primate.

Anyways to moi, I have see votes during page 2 for pressure before, I'm not sure why you find that incredulous.
I only recall that Infinity voted, you called the vote bad, Infinity asked why and Infinity stated he wanted to see more from Primate.
So I'm not really seeing your prospective.
Another question for you, are you in a bad mood?

You are dancing around the issue at hand with this – you were claiming that Infinity’s initial response was an attempt to get Primate to “do more”. That’s clearly not the case given Infinity’s own response to me revolved around he was looking for a Town or Scum response not to get him to “do more”. And here you say “Well, I’ve seen Page 2 pressure before” which is not a part of the discussion.

Of course Page 2 votes can be pressure. Any vote is inherently pressure.

Again – why did you attempt to frame my stance in a way that looks like trying to link me to another player when clearly what you claimed was not what I was saying.

Read this page and I see dgb twisted a question I asked into something I didn't say.
My fos stands there.

Um so to be clear – you find DGB to be scummy for twisting postions in an effort to paint you as scummy? Because that’s exactly what you are doing with your twisting of my position on Primate.

--

I don't like MoI's initial comments in 170. He's reading people as scum for acting as if they know other people are town...but that almost seems like it has to come from the mindset of somebody who does know the alignments to even form that case.

So just to be clear – you don’t find Peter’s “We’ll lynch you for lynching Massive” before Massive flipped isn’t a sign of someone possibly leaking informed minority knowledge?

I don't know smart's meta, but I'm willing to bet SoD is scum right now based on Ari's.

Enlightment me on your meta on Ari. I’ve played exactly one game with him (well, technically about .5 games since he replaced in ) and he was a useless lurksack there and Town. Does he traditionally lurk as scum and generally not as Town?

--

<3 Magna but I don't really agree with him today.

Can you maybe elaborate on what specifically you don’t agree with? That would be helpful.

after that post he makes a comment that he thinks DPR is clearly scum but still wants to lynch PEP? But he hasn't really put anything else forward on DPR/DGB, so why is that read stronger than it was earlier in the day?

This frankly stinks. It rests on the premise that Nero can only have one scum read.

Clearly that isn’t the case.

Primate – why do you somehow think that Nero shouldn’t, as Town, have multiple scum reads all of which he would want lynched?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Also not very shocking but that big post Peter claimed that got "eaten by the Internet" still hasn't made an appearance.

Yet oddly no-one else seems to be focusing on his active lurking ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

1) I've learned it's pointless to argue with someone who clearly isn't paying attention and just whipping up a freezy. No cares in the game and I get frustrated and pissy in the end. So yes I'll basically put Nero on ignore.
2) I stated what I saw in the game. Please enlighten me as to why it reads more sinister from iniquity with examples if you think I'm wrong.
3) I'm not tying you to anyone. I'm not twisting a point I even post what I saw in the game between your comments and Infinity.

I agree with you about dgb, she is not this derpy as a player. My votes will be on her in the end.

I don’t think you have a valid point in saying Nero “isn’t paying attention to the game”. He’s as engaged and active as anyone else and has picked up on things that I haven’t seen others comment on (the fact that Roberts didn’t follow his claimed restriction at the start of the today comes to top of mind). If you want to ignore him that’s on you but I don’t see your reasons as being solid.

I’m not exactly sure what point 2 is supposed to even mean. Are you asking why my posts read as more sinister to you? Please clarify.

No, you did twist a point I was making. You asked “Why I thought Primate didn’t deserve pressure” which is in no way, shape or form anything I’ve espoused. Calling Infinity out on his bad reasoning is just that – calling him out in an effort to sort him. You specifically framed the question at me in a way that didn’t reflect my intent in the conversation. The fact that you are being a hypocrite isn’t inherently alignment indicative (Town can be the worst on this end as can scum) but I frankly expect better from you given how long you’ve been playing this game.

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: DGB

Frankly I’ve seen enough to be satisfied with my initial gut read. Posts like 336 feel like trying to be casual Town but there isn’t any substance to her posting. At this point I have no clue who she thinks is scum … she’s backed off both scum reads on Infinity and Farside and the only other player she’s called scum already flipped Town before she replaced in.

She’s paid no attention to Peter or Shadow which makes sense to me as those are pretty strong possible partners for her in my mind.

No surprise but Peter hasn’t shown up again with any actual content. And Shadow dropped a single post and disappeared again.

The Appeal to Fear at 374 also plays into my actively voting her.

--

Now that the game has ended on the issue of Scum DoubleVoters I will direct you to the discussion on this page between myself and Travelling Salesman (specifically the Plot head) on the matter –

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p7969079

The take-away is as follows

1. Scum Doublevoters, while rare, do exist.
2. Many of the examples given were SmallTown games which are a different breed of game.
3. For a Scum Doublevoter to exist there needs to be significant Town power.

My assessment there is the same as it is here – it is very unlikely that we have a scum Doublevoter and while farside is an easier read than Javajoe I’m going to lean on the role as Town until such time as I see evidence that Town has the overwhelming power needed to justify a Scum Doublevoter (especially with some sort of scum role that resulted in the short Day 1). As it stands with 1 VT flip and a 1-Shot Vig in the pool I don’t feel that it is likely at all.

So Nero – please stop the sniping at Farside for today at least please.

--

1) if you haven't noticed he is creating things that aren't there. I made a point of clarifying this and he completely ignored it and started ranting. If you call that paying attention then I'll beg to differ.

I don’t even know what you are trying to say here. Mafia is a game about finding the little clues that betray the scum in their posting. You keep dismissing things Nero is saying as “Stop making Mountains out of Molehills” which is at best counter-productive if you are both Town. If you want to explain why something isn’t alignment indicative when he thinks it is that would be helpful. But just saying “Stop inventing stuff” is not useful to establishing understanding between the two of you (and, frankly, for people outside you two to assess your interactions and alignments).

[MagnaofIllusion]

DGB’s response to my case on her and voting of her fits well with a scum oriented viewpoint.

1. Note that her “case” about me rests on a faulty assumption – that I’m saying her posting looks Town so she must be scum. That’s not my presumption at all. Why she is scum is that her posting looks artificial and stilted as if she’s trying to post like a “casual Town” but is faking it. That’s an important distinction that I don’t think should be overlooked. She’s doesn’t read as casual Town to me at all – she very much reads scum who got put on the back-foot by her predecessor and is having to work to present as if she is casually posting.

2. This quote deserves individual attention –

Maybe MOI is scum

I do feew he wouwd cowectly peg me as town if he were town too

And this statement doesn’t really match up to our shared MS history. DGB and I haven’t played that many games together. I went through my archive and found the following games (I stopped looking after Page 4 .. I didn’t want to spend more than the 35 minutes I devoted to making this point)

Cyclical Expereiment 2 - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=19396

Partially Tiger eaten. DGB was Town and I was Town. I suspected her based on her play as Scum in Atomic Mafia.

Atomic Mafia – http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=18511

DGB was Mafia (and replaced out) and I was Town. I called her scum from very early on.

Test of Faith Mafia - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=17650

DGB and myself were both Town. I suspected DGB early on.

Vi’s Invictus Mafia - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=18022

DGB was Mafia and I was Town. Early on I read her as Town and maintained it through the game.

Yes, I had to go back to 2011 games to find these four examples. And they pretty much tell paint a picture opposite of what DGB is peddling – that I am more proficient at calling scum DGB scum (1/2 correct) than I am of calling Town DGB Town (0/2). In fact that only game here that I called DGB Town she was scum.

3. Of last note – notice that after I call DGB out for having no scum reads in thread suddenly she picks me as scum and “makes a case”. Note 433 where she makes a point of how unusual this is. That’s a classic scum reaction.

More votes would be appreciated.

--

Somebody was leading a wagon, and PEP said "If he's town". While that could be faked from scum, saying that he's doing it from a scum POV actually sounds more like you're framing him ahead of time.

That’s an interesting reading of what happened.

Well, VOTE: Massive then. Given Nero seems to look town to everyone, I think it's worth the risk to get this apparently important information. Also I'm curious. And if Massive is Town, then we can kill Nero.

The post where Peter voted Massive he immediately starts lining up lynches.

Because you started it. The others would also be under suspicion, but the suspicion would sort of be spread across all of them. You, as the one who decided to, and as the one who was mostly trying to get everyone to vote him, would be under the most suspicion.

Then he reinforces that Nero should be held the most accountable for the lynch he was at this point STILL supporting because Nero “started it”.

I don’t see that as a Town mindset – still helping along a lynch (which we now know was Town) while pre-lynch already assessing blame.

But let me ask another question – do you think Massive’s entire wagon was Town?

--

This is a small town though, yes MOI?

No, not in the context I am using.

SmallTown is a set-up where are the roles are known Pre-Game and players draft roles independent of aligment. SmallTown set-ups are 9-3-1 setups. Here’s an example.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=19193

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Nero

- please vote DGB again. Your vote is still not registered with the Mod.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I THINK that I am voteless today but I can try again

vote:DGB

Yeah, I suspected the possibility of vote stealing Day 1. Confirming you being voteless means that Farside is likely a Vote Stealer not a Double Voter.

While Vote Stealers can certainly be Town the large Town read I was giving her was based specifically on a Double Voter.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Whose vote was stolen day 1?

I thought either Rach or mine was stolen based on the following series of VCs

Vote Count 1.2
Magna of Illusion - (2/7) - Farside22
Massive - (2/7) - Infinity 324, Nero Cain
Peter Elric Pines - (0/7) -
Shaddowez - (1/7) - MagnaofIllusion
Nero Cain - (1/7) - RachMarie
Dread Pirate Roberts - (0/7) -
Infinity 324 - (0/7) -
Sword of Damocles - (0/7) -
Leonshade - (1/7) - Shaddowez
Primate - (0/7) -
RachMarie - (0/7) -
farside22 - (0/7) -
NOT VOTING:Massive, Peter Elric Pines, Dread Pirate Roberts, Leonshade, Primate

With twelve alive, it takes seven to lynch!

Vote Count 1.3
Magna of Illusion - (2/7) - Farside22
Massive - (2/7) - Infinity 324, Nero Cain
Peter Elric Pines - (0/7) -
Shaddowez - (1/7) - MagnaofIllusion, RachMarie
Nero Cain - (1/7) - Dread Pirate Roberts
Dread Pirate Roberts - (0/7) -
Infinity 324 - (0/7) -
Sword of Damocles - (0/7) -
Leonshade - (1/7) - Shaddowez
Primate - (0/7) -
RachMarie - (1/7) - Primate
farside22 - (0/7) -
NOT VOTING: Massive, Peter Elric Pines, Leonshade

With twelve alive, it takes seven to lynch!

Vote Count 1.4
Magna of Illusion - (2/7) - Farside22
Massive - (4/7) - Infinity 324, Nero Cain, Peter Elric Pines, Massive
Peter Elric Pines - (2/7) - Leonshade, MagnaofIllusion
Shaddowez - (1/7) - RachMarie
Nero Cain - (1/7) - Dread Pirate Roberts
Dread Pirate Roberts - (0/7) -
Infinity 324 - (0/7) -
Sword of Damocles - (0/7) -
Leonshade - (1/7) - Shaddowez
Primate - (0/7) -
RachMarie - (1/7) - Primate
farside22 - (0/7) -
NOT VOTING:

With twelve alive, it takes seven to lynch!

Between 1.2 and 1.3 it appeared that one of our votes on Shadow was stolen. That said I dismissed it as a possible Mod error when 1.4 came out and we both appeared to have our votes.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I said that? I don't remember saying that. Show me.

Scummy selective crop …

Here’s the full actual sentence –

And they pretty much tell paint a picture opposite of what DGB is peddling – that I am more proficient at calling scum DGB scum (1/2 correct) than I am of calling Town DGB Town (0/2). In fact that only game here that I called DGB Town she was scum.

So I said that the evidence shows that I’m more likely to correctly call Scum DGB scum than I am to call Town DGB Town.

DGB crops the post to try to suggest I was trying to suggest she was claiming that. That’s clearly not the case. She was claiming the opposite.

Nothing to say when presented with facts DGB?

[MagnaofIllusion]

THat's what is sounded like to me

Come on ... you can't be trying to peddle that the crop was accidental and you didn't understand the clear implication of my original post.

You aren't stupid DGB.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Everyone

– I mean look at the crop job in 481 and then look at the full quote in either 461 or 487 and tell me with a straight face that

1. The original sentence wasn’t crystal clear.
2. That DGB’s selective crop and attempt to misrep my post isn’t scummy as hell.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Oh go to hell

I have an actual cognitive impairment from kidney failure and being on dialysis and on an organ transplant list

Fuck you and your stupid fake scumtells scum

DIE

I'm sorry for your health issues but the fact remains -

You had to go out of your way to crop that post in a manner that attempted to portray what I was suggesting was the opposite of what actually was said.

If you were honestly looking to make a point you would have just quoted the whole thing.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD – I’ll be V/LA from 5pm EDT today until Monday morning for usual family weekend duties.

At this point I think continuing to comment on DGB’s individual posts isn’t worth the time. Anyone who has played with her knows Town DGB doesn’t rage like this. It’s manufactured to hit the current site meta of “Town AtEs, scum doesn’t” and to escape lynch.

I also eagerly await Wingback’s input given my read on his slot predecessor.

@Farside

– did you just forget about the “Oh I saw something in my re-read but it will have to do later” you mentioned earlier?

--

Ok I'm even more ok with a DGB lynch

So you are waiting for more input from Wingback? You’ve been explaining that you agree with a lynch on DGB but aren’t actually doing anything to forward the momentum on it.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Since there is little to comment on since this morning I'll just drop my V/LA notice ..

MOD – I’ll be V/LA from 5pm EDT today until Monday morning for usual family weekend duties.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So I check right before bed to see Infinity has lined himself up for modkill ...

And DGB swoops right in to suddenly declare him Town. What a shock that suddenly Infinity went from OBV SCUM DIE DIE to Town. It's like she doesn't actually have reads and just says whatever is expedient for the moment.

DGB isn't going to get Modkilled for breaking a non-existent post restriction. And she isn't going to self vote. She's going to continue to keep repeating "I'm Town, MOI is scum" in hopes someone will get taken in on her AtE fest and try to lynch Town instead of her.

Preview Edit - Thank you Farside .. I'll look at it in depth when I next get the chance.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Well congratulations I guess ... I'm not sure exactly how that endgame played out given the Serial Killer role PM doesn't even have a win condition written into it ...

I avoided posting much in the dead thread because my speculation would be inherently spoiling. It was pretty obvious the Peter / Wingback slot was the Serial Killer given that both players who were not Mafia kills heavily suspected that slot.

I don't think balance concerns about the set-up are warranted given the scum were a Vanilla SK and a Goon / Nonconsecutive Executioner combo. Town had plenty of tools in their bag of tricks to win this one and just basically go unlucky with deaths Day 1. Swing isn't poor set-up ... just swing. Heck, a bad set of Night 1 kill choices resulting in cross kills or a scum lynch Day 1 puts the game solidly in the court of Town on cruise control.

Kuroi thanks for the experience. I love your devotion to flavor but think you need to tighten up the mechanical side of you Modding before taking on a complex set-up. There were multiple mistakes in vote-counts that confused things for Town and the Role PMs could have used some polishing on things like ability explanation and the aforementioned lack of Wincon for the Serial Killer.

Also to quote the Mafia QT -

Safe claims are not requirements to mod a game. They are something I do out of courtesy. I'm sorry you're upset. I really am, but you're making such difficulties out of something you may or may not use.

This is bad modding. Sorry if it hurts your ego but it is the case. If you build a Theme Game and make it trivially breakable Day 1 with Flavor claiming you are doing a disservice to your players.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Eventhough MOI was scum, so you might think you are validated here, his questioning of Infinity had shit all to do with him being against pressure on Primate.

This. We know Primate wasn't scum after the fact and the supposed scum reaction by Primate to the naked scum call wasn't scummy in the slightest.

[MagnaofIllusion]

The case on me was basically

too townie to be real - must be fake

You keep saying these words but I don't think they mean what you think they mean ...

Seriously the case on you was "Manufacturing posts in an attempt to look like a Townie but failing miserably".

Which clearly was false but sold really, really well.

The conclusion is - you weren't playing obviously Townie.