Open 642 - The Woodshed - Game Over

[mhsmith0]

Btw I'm getting on a LONG flight within the hour, will be pretty unavailable for a while.

[mhsmith0]

What specifically about 92? I see three things there, curious what pinged you.

[mhsmith0]

Yep. Also the weirdly high town read of alpaca, and the "95%" bit. Also "lynching scum is good" pings me as awkward, though that's a much more minor point.

[mhsmith0]

Sorry to hear that Titus hope she does better

Wrt hammer, what is your timeframe? I'd like to at least hear a final defense from ranger at this point

[mhsmith0]

@titus: You'd made a short comment a while ago on a specific parallel to your open w range (627 iirc) r; anything else seem notably similar to you?

[mhsmith0]

Just that. It's not a great thing because gut but it's ok for Day 1.

Its day 2 tho.

[mhsmith0]

Actually in kinda curious what alpaca thinks of all this. Haven't heard from him in a while.

[mhsmith0]

UNVOTE:
For now, will be back post floght

[mhsmith0]

@ranger: you were pinged really hard by iv's "ranger or m&m I'd likely scum". Why does btd6's even lazier reprisal of this (and this is the like third time they've done it too) draw no interest or comment from you?

Well for a start: IV flipped town.

So the philosophical basis for your read goes away entirely because it was wrong once? I mean, I get the idea that you wouldn't want to "100%" it again, but why does it swing that drastically from "100% scum" to "meh whatever"?

[mhsmith0]

UNVOTE:

Do you know what this is?
This is, quite frankly, the most blatant sucking up in the history of scum sucking up.

mhsmith has been going on long spews about why I am scum, bringing up many, many various points for why I am scum. He has had no problem with the wagon. He has had no problem with a player like Xkfyu placing me at L-1. He has had no problem with Titus giving intent to hammer. He has held no problem with anything in it.

But the MOMENT, absolute MOMENT, we get PantherPunt's 1006, he immediately unvotes, as if everything else didn't matter. No "I think that might be wrong", no attempt to convince PantherPunt, no reason for backing off.
It's, blatantly, appeasement.

Actually it was "I'm about to go on a like 10 hour flight, panther made an interesting point that I want to think over, and I don't want a hammer while I'm completely unavailable".

[mhsmith0]

Btd, if you were anything other than consistent mislynch bait I'd be all over you for that vote. As it is... I dunno. I still hate it.

Hypocrisy, thy name is mhsmith.

You're attacking BTD6_maker for something that you, ironically, by virtue of the attack, are yourself doing: literally every point you make in there applies to your stance on me compared to your stance on BTD6.

Honestly, I'm not real sure why Ranger hasn't already been lynched.

Well don't blame me, I tried to help. Still didn't go through.

Citations needed on all four points please.

1) implied "if ranger DOES reply then never mind"
2) writes it in a way designed CLEARLY to blame me if ranger flips town, while basically just sleeping part of my read on her
3) naked "well one of them is wolf" bit
4) slides right in to the l-2 slot from someone who's been bandwagoning all game

[mhsmith0]

Honestly, I'm not real sure why Ranger hasn't already been lynched.

Well don't blame me, I tried to help. Still didn't go through.

To clarify, did you actually WANT to get lynched? If so, what were you trying to achieve?

[mhsmith0]

Dgb? U meant replacing shotty? If so can you explain why you had shotty as a stronger town read than kappy? I felt like the naked celebratory tone from kappy post IV fake scum claim was especially town indicative (which is why I'm not much worried about panther right now); why do you think otherwise?

[mhsmith0]

Just that. It's not a great thing because gut but it's ok for Day 1.

Its day 2 tho.

Another unvote point. I don't think it's AI for Titus (that sheer sloppiness seems likelier to be town than scum, and the feel of her posts seems different than 1775 when she subbed in too, though I need to go back and verify)... but it still made me nervous that this was a bit too easy.

[mhsmith0]

Deadlines in 4 days.

[mhsmith0]

For the rest, rangers still my best guess but I need to re read and that's not happening tonightZ

[mhsmith0]

@panther: I feel like ranger is going back to her "finding shitty things to attack" bit. Maybe I'm conf!biased because she's attacking me, but these attacks seem dumb and reachy IMO.

I also really do think it's suspicious that she's shown basically zero interest in what's going on w btd6 (more on this later today), although given that I suspected you last game for pushing on the wrong people based on what you should know FYPOV, this may be a weaker tell than I thought.

But I'll at least re read. I'm admittedly bad at tone reading, but will see what I can find wrt your "not pushing a scum agenda" bit.

Ps curious what you saw on shotty. I thought his post hammer/scum claim bit was plausibly town indicative, though less so than kappys. Do you disagree that his iso around that point seemed towny?

[mhsmith0]

Hmm. I guess I'll re read shotty too then. The post scum claim tone seemed celebratory in a fairly honest manner (though not as blatant as kappy iirc), but I'll go back and dig.

Ps what do you think of rangers recent push on me? It still feels ill to me; are you seeing something different from that specifically?

[mhsmith0]

That was @ranger re: 1031

[mhsmith0]

I think we should lynch in {Titus, Alpaca, Xkfyu, Smith}

So this is everyone OFF the d1 lynch wagon, plus Titus. The implication here is that you think your wagon was righteous /primarily town driven. Why do you think this is the case?

[mhsmith0]

There are circumstances where all wolves will be off a winning wagon. But I'm curious why anyone would think this game particularly applied. IMO that wagon was sufficiently bad that two wolves on seems much likelier than two wolves off.

Ps fake scum claim aside, it was on town

[mhsmith0]

It's not the lack of resistance to the wagon that made it bad. It's the fact that basically all of the votes/cases were bad.

[mhsmith0]

@ranger: you said in 134

To me, RC is just another player. I don't treat him any differently than I would anyone else. But this is not mutual. RC holds me in a whole different league, so he should be angry. He should be emotional. He should be saying how sad he is that I've gone downhill like this, he should be trying to work with me, or if he seriously thinks I replaced in as scum and for some UNGODLY reason went all-out on him (which...runs contrary to literally every piece of my scum meta, ever), he would not rest until I was dead.

Can you provide a game where something similar (town!you scum reading ranger) has happened and he's reacted this way? Also helpful: one where he was scum and did NOT do something like this.

[mhsmith0]

@panther: wrt the after scum claim tonal stuff, any thoughts on shottys 231, 235? And on m&m's 255?

[mhsmith0]

Edit: never mind on 231 you'd mentioned that already

[mhsmith0]

Wait, scum cannot be off the wagons entirely. Doh! So we're probably looking at every wagon being unaligned pairs.

1) why can't alpaca be the scum off wagon FYPOV? Or did you just mean that both wolves couldn't be off wagon?

2) while both wolves together seems less likely, is there a particular reason to discount the possibility here?

3) in your opinion, which wagon of
mhsmith0 - (2) Ranger, BTD6_maker
BTD6_maker - (2) PantherPunt, Town Mafioso
Ranger - (2) mhsmith0, DrippingGoofball
Is likeliest to have no wolves on it and why?

[mhsmith0]

Btd, if you were anything other than consistent mislynch bait I'd be all over you for that vote. As it is... I dunno. I still hate it.

Hypocrisy, thy name is mhsmith.

You're attacking BTD6_maker for something that you, ironically, by virtue of the attack, are yourself doing: literally every point you make in there applies to your stance on me compared to your stance on BTD6.

Honestly, I'm not real sure why Ranger hasn't already been lynched.

Well don't blame me, I tried to help. Still didn't go through.

Citations needed on all four points please.

1) implied "if ranger DOES reply then never mind"
2) writes it in a way designed CLEARLY to blame me if ranger flips town, while basically just sleeping part of my read on her
3) naked "well one of them is wolf" bit
4) slides right in to the l-2 slot from someone who's been bandwagoning all game

Reposting for emphasis. You said all four points applied to me. If your attack wasn't just made up this should be easy to answer.

[mhsmith0]

Why?

[mhsmith0]

I'm in the middle of re reading. I still think it's ranger, but the sheer volume of bad or unstated reads (or just bandwagoning) in this game makes me hesitate. I'm also trying to find evidence one way or the other on whether she's pushing an agenda. I also don't know what it means that she (IMO) finds something shitty to attack pretty soon after you said scum!ranger would find something shitty to attack. Like, that's just super brazen of her if she's a wolf... But that also could just be wifom in a game where I feel like she's been playing that card.

Ps do you agree that it was a shitty attack? Or do you think there was something legit there?

[mhsmith0]

How did you get that from 1025-1026?

[mhsmith0]

I didn't. I ISO'd Ranger and ctrl+f'd your name. 1025 1026 are addendums to a case she made about how you're approaching the game. are you saying that 1025 and 1026 are solely her case?

No, I'm saying that 1025-6 are shitty attacks on their own. 1025 is IMO nonsense; I fail to see how ANY, much less all, of my points on btd apply to me. And 1026 is reachy, AI reading into something which very clearly had a reasonable explanation as town (literally the one I gave, which I feel like should have been obvious even before I responded).

[mhsmith0]

Wrt her earlier case, I don't see how my STD game would lead to a meta read of

I don't agree. If I understand correctly, she's saying you're not evaluating every slot and waffling enough to be town.

Specifically the waffling part. Did you get that impression from that game? It feels clearly wrong to me which makes me think it's made up (or more specifically, an intentionally reachy meta read based on a very short sample size in open 635 where I subbed in at MYLO and actually DID waffle and struggle in the like 72 hours I was playing before Titus and postie mis voted letting the scum team end it).

[mhsmith0]

I think it's a bad meta read to extend how I act in LYLO (on a hammer board) to how I act normally. So when her read was "you didn't act like you did in MYLO in open 635 and that makes you scummy" I think she's just bullshitting and making a read that SOUNDS like it's thought out but is actually pretty obviously shallow and reachy.

[mhsmith0]

side note that Titus's lack of presence is concerning. I'd say the thread has a dadv feel except the whole game has been dead so it's hard to say the wolves are just happy with the direction of day and hanging back. half of the living players have made count-on-one-hand posts since I replaced in

The quality of the wagon/votes on ranger is a better defense of her than anything I've actually seen from her ISO tbh. It's kinda weird since iirc when I came in and pushed her there was a counter wagon on me pretty fast, but on the second time around, much less resistance. It's weird and I don't know what to make of it.

[mhsmith0]

Although if ranger is a wolf then a partner inside {dgb, Titus} seems likely given shotty and touka pushed on me the first time while dgb or Titus could just be bussing. I guess btd6 would work there too for the same reason but I feel like rangers super soft push against the btd wagon makes them unlikely buddies.

[mhsmith0]

Mhsmith or Ranger should eat rope today.

??? Weren't you just recently saying IV's lynch list (which had me in it ) sucked? Why the change of heart?

[mhsmith0]

@alpaca: you'd posted a couple times while btd was at l-1. If they were your top read, why didn't you state intent to demand a claim from them then?

[mhsmith0]

Take care Titus

is mhsmith town?

I thought so but I'm reconsidering with the wagon data now that I'm getting into this.

What about the wagon data suggests I'm an arsonist?

[mhsmith0]

@ranger: Speaking of that game...

VOTE: btd ^6^ scum post

p-edit
Kappy
s point may be weak but look at BTD's reaction

How is my reaction scummy? I'm honestly tired of repeating myself over and over again.

Mhsmith, I did think an IV/Ranger team was likely, and I found both of them scummy by themselves. The Tree claim was just a weak comment but I would not have hammered a claimed Firefighter.

Also, in my experience, scum have never claimed a PR

. You are assuming that small comments I make are the whole reason for the hammer, which is false. I don't see why you think pointing out the flaws in your reasoning is scummy.

Also, I never said I wanted to lynch a Tree or that a Tree lynch is good. Once again, you are using irrelevant comments as my whole case, which is misrepresenting me. That comment was not hedging.

I will also post a "case" on IV showing why I scumread him at the time.

Did you pick up on this one? Btd6 had done EXACTLY what they said they'd never seen ( fake claim pr as wolf) in that game, AND it helped them escape the d1 noose. I expected this to pong you to the point you'd be a lot more curious about btd6 in general, even if you couldn't mention this specifically since it was an ongoing game. So I'd like to know:

1) did you notice it?
2) if yes, why didn't this make you a lot more interested in sorting btd6?

Also, we've both seen btd6 as town (open 644) and wolf (micro 610). What about this game makes you think it's more comparable to the town game than the wolf game?

[mhsmith0]

@alpaca:

I still think that BTD is scum apparently his meta is mislynch bait but he still has my strongest feeling with the way he was posting.

What specifically about the way that btd was posting convinced you? Any one post in particular? I'd like to get a better handle on how and why you're reading them. You'd talked about it a bit a while ago, but I'd like yu to expand on it a but and discuss if anything of late has impacted your thinking.

Ps I'll give you the opposite advice as I gave btd. If/when you're town, it's ok to be a bit more confident in your votes. Part of the process of scum hunting is to put your vote and reasons out there and see how people react, both your target and the rest of the board. If/when you're wrong, you'll give people the chance to evaluate why you're wrong, and be better able to read you.

The thing is, scum hunting is hard, but fake scum hunting is even harder. The more you work to contribute to an active environment of scum hunting, the more the scum either stand out for not doing the same, or the harder they have to work at pretending to scum hunt (and the harder they have to work at it, the likelier they are to screw it up).

[mhsmith0]

@xkfyu: why on the town reads for each of the four? I don't need an essay but would like a bit more than "they're town"

[mhsmith0]

Well I mean essays are fine, but I'm not holding others to that standard.

What do you think of the posts shotty made specifically and panthers take on them?

Ps I did take a pretty hard stance on ranger, but panther made some interesting points on her, and I wasn't impressed by the wagon that formed either. So I'm back to asking questions, both for her and others. I still think she's a wolf but I'm not sure.

[mhsmith0]

Wrt your last post, btd tends to be mislynch bait as town, including in open 644 which we just had together.

[mhsmith0]

@ranger: I'd really like your btd thoughts. What about them this game is notably different from the micro you modded?

[mhsmith0]

Alpaca asked btd the same question (why do you think smith is scum) repeatedly and btd kept ignoring it. Imo it's a poor look for both of them (alpaca for literally doing nothing else for like a week, btd for dodging what should be a super easy question to answer). I don't know it's really strong on either of them though.

Wrt btd, I'd been skimming their meta, and I don't see flagrant differences between town and scum for them. There seems to be a bit more of an inward focus to them when they're scum, especially under pressure, at least in open 638 and micro 618. In this game I see similar tendencies, though it seems a bit dampened (but much more inward/defense focus than in open 644, where they were wagoned d2).

Notable other town games where they got lynched:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go
There's a notable lack of investment in self defense in both those. IMO it's pretty particular for a meta read though.

It's also annoying because the odds of btd having been primed on n1 are essentially zero for obvious reasons, which means that there's no chance that we could essentially buy an extra mislynch here if we're wrong. That said, if I buy ranger as town (and I re-read open 635 and didn't see the kind of posts that you cited as indicative... but that IV vote was so bad, and the whole self-vote saga looked terrible and manipulative in my book too), they'd probably be my next best guess as to who is a wolf, especially given the flat-out lie surrounding the whole "claiming by is scum indicative while I'm fake claiming pr as scum in another game" bit.

[mhsmith0]

My lynch pool is {ranger, btd} and MAYBE Titus or dgb if someone wants to make a solid case there (anther has my attention but I'm not sold on dgb). I'm not interested in lynching off the d1 IV wagon, and I'm not interested in lunching panther after kappys post lynch celebration stuff.

[mhsmith0]

At any rate we are just over 24 hours away and CANNOT no lynch. What is everyone's lynch pools at this point?

[mhsmith0]

Talk about how that vote analysis points to me?

[mhsmith0]

You mean one of the three is all wolf? Or two wagons have one each? I get the idea the splits may be unnatural, but I dont follow you on how that points to anyone in particular.

[mhsmith0]

Why is your first ever game better meta than your more recent town games? Also, even there, as you say, you were pushing on RC. In this game, I see a bit less of an outward push than that game, and quite a bit less than in other town games of yours. It seems like in general when you're town, pressure and votes on you aren't a massive focus of your energy, while they are much more so when you're scum. And in this game, there's been more of a focus on defense from you, more similar to your scum meta than your town meta.

That said, what are your opinions on the other current wagon options (ranger, me, dgb, Titus) and why on each? Essays aren't needed, but we need to know your thoughts on these. Which are you willing to lynch, which are you NOT willing to lynch, and why?

[mhsmith0]

I'm not going to slap on an l-1 before an official claim from ranger in case someone lol hammers using the deadline as an excuse.

Also what's your dgb read?

[mhsmith0]

Call it a 3 hour intent to vote at this point, regardless of potential hammer. Gives enough time to cfd onto another slot if needed.

[mhsmith0]

Actually screw it. Ranger claimed tree already a few times at this point, I don't see her slow rolling a pr here.
VOTE: ranger

[mhsmith0]

That's L-1 btw

[mhsmith0]

I'm not fine w your refusal. I want to hear your take on dgb.

As stated previously, my top two are {ranger, btd}, but I'd like to actually get people's thoughts on other slots, especially given panthers case on the dgb slot.

Wrt defending ranger, I'm not 100% on her being scum, but I still consider her likely to be one. Ditto btd. So I'm not going to defend her slot since I still have a read there and think there's a legit case there. Does that help clarify?

Ps wrt the implication you read into my comments, I think you're reading too far into it. DGB is in my list of considerations, is not my top pick a this point.

[mhsmith0]

Still think ranger is town. Nobody interested in a shotty slot vote.

I'd move to Btd or Titus. Will check back before deadline

You've basically made a tonal read from her on a couple posts, despite the ugliness of her IV push. Just how confident are you that the first outweighs the latter?

[mhsmith0]

I could vote smith for that post alone

That's also viable

Why?

[mhsmith0]

Fwiw, xykfu, ranger, alpaca, and panther are all on one vote wagons that are essentially vanity wagons at this point. Push your wagon and convince others to join or figure out where you're ok compromising. This is a ridiculous eod state.

[mhsmith0]

jfc. 1 hour until EOD. Someone just hammer ranger at this point. I don't think it's physically possible for another wagon to go through, and literally the worst thing possible is no lynch (since she already claimed not PR).

[mhsmith0]

Oh look. 20 minutes until the day closes and no one is here.

[mhsmith0]

Four goddammn minutes left. Even by the standard of "shitty towns I've been a part of" this is pathetic.

[mhsmith0]

There's at least two town inside the vanity wagon voters of {Ranger, Panther, Xkfyu, Alpaca} but that's basically my lynch pool for tomorrow.

[mhsmith0]

And now we're in overtime (if even that is allowed to count). Sigh...

[mhsmith0]

Fun facts:

- Alpaca was posting on this site sporadically today, chose not to check into this thread AT ALL today
- Panther was on this thread earlier today, and vanished when deadline hit
- Ranger/Xkfyu weren't on site anywhere today (though were Friday).

This is like the super example of what happens when towns stop giving a crap and ignore the thread around deadline. I'd love it if it was exactly a Panther/Alpaca team, because then at least I could say "good job wolves". Doubt that's the pair exactly though.

[mhsmith0]

We're going to have problems. I found that post scummy as shit.

Why?

Mhsmith did everything in their power to ensure a no lynch yesterday. They doubtcasted the largest wagon without rallying for a new one and switched at the last moment. Then, he makes a big post about "look at everyone but me off the wagon" when it failed to go through.

Mhsmith looks like scum who wanted to be off the wagon for towncred but did not want to get caught posting elsewhere so he had to vote Ranger.

Titus, in the FIVE HOURS between your final post and eod NO ONE other than me showed up to post. I have every right to call town out for that shit. As far as switching goes, I switched w 9.5 hours to go. I had every right to expect at least half of the board to be around at or near eod. The fact that no one showed up eod is absolutely disgusting.

[mhsmith0]

Seven alive players didn't show up. Five of them are town. I called the town out as a whole. Was this not obvious? I mean shit, even the wolves I'd have expected to show up to pretend to be invested in the game.

As far as who the wolves are, I honestly don't know. There are two wolves and five bad town. Ranger has decent odds of being a wolf (if she's actually town she's damn right this is going down as one of her worst ever games). I lean decently on Panther as town, although his "I'll be back before eod" bit reeks given that he wasn't actually back at eod. The rest? Beats me. Anyone with solid reads on anyone inside
{dgb, Titus, alpaca, btd} I'd be interested to hear. Anyone inside that group that feels like producing useful content would be helpful too.

[mhsmith0]

Second, this post screams caught for wrong reasons.

How so? Admittedly, your reasons are bad, but how is this more than "I'm accusing you but I admit my reasons suck"? Walk me through how it "SCREAMS caught for the wrong reasons"?

[mhsmith0]

How so? Admittedly, your reasons are bad, but how is this more than "I'm accusing you but I admit my reasons suck"? Walk me through how it "SCREAMS caught for the wrong reasons"?

You don't read this as an attempt to get information out of you?

[mhsmith0]

Also walk me through the idea that Panther is my buddy. Where does that conclusion come from?

[mhsmith0]

How so? Admittedly, your reasons are bad, but how is this more than "I'm accusing you but I admit my reasons suck"? Walk me through how it "SCREAMS caught for the wrong reasons"?

You don't read this as an attempt to get information out of you?

Getting information =\= scumhunting.

You don't think that getting information on people's reads and where they come from is scum-hunting?

[mhsmith0]

Im curious what specifically about that was inconsistent w the idea that I trying to sort you.

[mhsmith0]

You don't think Panther finds a reason to bs his way onto ranger if he's my buddy? "Well shit we need a hammer" seems to work pretty well there if he's partners w basically anyone other than ranger herself.

[mhsmith0]

I guess the flip side would be that it's easier for him to just be "absent" at eod since then he doesn't need to defend a wagon hop against his prior convictions.

[mhsmith0]

flailing, looking for something to attack. Scumhunting focuses more on the why than the minuatie. You're focus more on discrediting that you're caught than my reads as a whole.

How is my emphasis on finding stuff to attack as opposed to trying to understand where you're coming from?

[mhsmith0]

I'm trying to determine whether your read is real or not. Unless you think I'm faking that process, that's pretty clearly trying to sort your alignment. Why do you think it isn't?

Ps you're correct, I've never seen the heat.

[mhsmith0]

Well in that case could you just go ahead and answer my questions anyway? Rather than, you know, just continually attacking me?

[mhsmith0]

You're flailing, looking for something to attack. Scumhunting focuses more on the why than the minuatie. You're focus more on discrediting that you're caught than my reads as a whole.

Your questions were why me?
My response. Fry you.

The sheer pissiness of it seems more like town!titus based on my recollection of her meta, but the two,posts together are still jarring. I'll probably just re-skim 635 and see what she was like there to see if there's a good parallel or not.

[mhsmith0]

Fwiw, xykfu, ranger, alpaca, and panther are all on one vote wagons that are essentially vanity wagons at this point. Push your wagon and convince others to join or figure out where you're ok compromising. This is a ridiculous eod state.

This was my "three hours to go" post. I had every reason to expect that people would be here for EOD. No one showed up.

The with an hour to go I pushed a compromise on ranger from anyone who hadn't bothered to do anything useful on other wagons (I.e. The four vanity wagon voters).

Then with basically no time to go I started lashing out.

It's actually funny that two of the three voters on me (Titus, ranger) have substantial meta on me, and Panther is pushing along the idea of my wagon w/o actually voting right now. So, @titus/ranger/Panther:

1) explain how this series of events is NOT a logical progression

2) explain my expressed frustration w the towns inability to lynch even though it needed to lynch from the perspective of my being a wolf. Do you think I'm frustrated because I'm a wolf who doesn't want to win in a dumb way like this? Or do you think I was faking that frustration?

[mhsmith0]

Except that as a wolf, a no lynch advances my win con. So you're arguing that I'm faking frustration at an event that actually helps my win con. Walk me through this?

Ps wrt ranger you'd made an interesting case and I was thinking on it. But I didn't have any better votes, and I was still thinking it was likely ranger.

[mhsmith0]

smith - I want your tippity top pick for a wolf and then your secondary pick. as fast as possible preferably

Ranger still #1 guess

no real clue on the other. I basically have shit for town reads too, so no help on that end.

And I'm curious what happens w this wagon on me; maybe a wolf will do something dumb along the way. We'll see.

[mhsmith0]

Actually I'd still like anyone pushing on me to talk through their tonal read of my eod, either providing one or explaining why they don't want to. So far only Panther really has; Titus stated suspicion (based on 1181) was not tonal but rather about where I was pointing.

[mhsmith0]

Alpaca, what's your current opinion of me and why?

[mhsmith0]

Also, who here would you be willing to lynch, and who wouldn't you be willing to?

[mhsmith0]

flailing, looking for something to attack. Scumhunting focuses more on the why than the minuatie. You're focus more on discrediting that you're caught than my reads as a whole.

How is my emphasis on finding stuff to attack as opposed to trying to understand where you're coming from?

Because you're not using this to sort my alignment and because you've never seen The Heat. Great movie. :-p

Curious, why is this relevant

? For me or Titus?

[mhsmith0]

wrt ranger you'd made an interesting case and I was thinking on it. But I didn't have any better votes, and I was still thinking it was likely ranger.

[mhsmith0]

a mislynch furthers your wincon more than a no-lynch, no? so it's not hard to fake frustration. also makes no sense to me why you're taking this particular line - the line that "well as wolf I'm happy with no lynch so there" as a type of defense. rather than "I'm a villager and thought and still think wolf!Ranger so I wanted it to happen"

In a world where I'm wolf and ranger is town, what furthers my win con much more than a ranger day 2 mislynch would be a day 2 no lynch, followed up by a day 3 ranger mislynch. If I'm a wolf, all things considered id prefer for ranger NOT to get lynched, because that means she has a green flip, and as her #1 read, I look bad. Moreover, she gets all of day 3 to push against me as confirmed town. Remember in last game where I said that wolf!you really wouldn't want ranger to be confirmed as town in LYLO? Similar logic applies.

Essentially, The argument I'm making is that my perspective and frustration at EOD was pretty clearly inconsistent with a wolf perspective, unless you think I was faking it. So if you think I'm a wolf, then either I really was frustrated (even though wolf!me ought to be perfectly content with getting a free n2 prime before continuing the ranger push d3), or you think I was faking it. Like, those are the only two options that I can see as at all reasonable w a wolf read on me.

And since we now have a good number of people who ARE reading me as wolf, I want them to commit to opinions and reads on this. I want this before I move on elsewhere.

[mhsmith0]

So you just unvoted to think more?

Basically. I was also about to go on like a 10 hour flight, and figured it'd make sense to re-evaluate after letting it rattle around for a while.

And then after I got back I started to try and re-evaluate, including asking questions if a bunch of different people, which is something i do sometimes when I'm unsure and trying to sort things.

After all that, ranger was still my best guess, and it was getting closer to eod, so I settled there. I figured that people would be around at eod in case there was a good reason to try a cfd, but as it turned out, no one showed up.

[mhsmith0]

Talk me through why you're making a serious vote early day instead of waiting like prior days? How sure are you on btd?

[mhsmith0]

Ok so why 90%? That's a pretty strong read. Any thoughts on who you are confident is NOT mafia? And What's your current read on ranger and me?

[mhsmith0]

@titus: you've now seen me three times as town and once as neutral (game just ended). Walk me through what exactly strikes you as different from my town meta as you understand it.

@ranger: talk through some of your reads? Like, I almost don't care which you pick at this point, but I'd like to see some meat behind the reads. Maybe start w why alpaca went from a town soul read on one opening post to your lynchable range?

[mhsmith0]

Why alpaca specifically, and why were you so strongly town reading my post that you quoted?

[mhsmith0]

Ok why are you feeling good on alpaca?

[mhsmith0]

Let's lynch Alpaca

I'm crying over here. I don't wanna lynch Alpaca.

Ok why are you feeling good on alpaca?

[mhsmith0]

VOTE: panther

interesting. talk to me about panther.

[mhsmith0]

Maybe start w why alpaca went from a town soul read on one opening post to your lynchable range?

Defense of you for a start.

Because you see him as me teammate? Because you see it as TMI? And what other than his defense of me?

[mhsmith0]

@DGB/Ranger, can you both get along? A wagon with the three of us on it would be awesome.

This sounds like you're reading them both as town. Town reads specific to them, or is it just others have moved higher on the suspect list? I'm especially curious about Ranger; if you're town reading her currently, what changed from D2?

[mhsmith0]

Speaking of that post, though...

I don't think Ranger is scum here for a very simple reason. She's not pushing an agenda.

I hate you.
Like, seriously hate you.
The moment I saw you come in, I was like, "Why couldn't he have replaced DGB? Then I wouldn't need to sort him!"
But you didn't. You replaced Kappy's slot. So I do. And I've got the mixed emotions going, like, the one moment, thinking this is you as town being able to detect the difference between my town game and my scum game, which I want to believe because I definitely want to think you are a competent town player and it wasn't just a fluke, but the next moment, I keep thinking out of fear that you're scum about to SERIOUSLY burn me and that it'll sting even more because I

didn't

read you as scum when I should have, but then I think about what you could have done as scum (just push me) and I keep thinking that's more likely, that it would be stupidly easy for you to do as scum and the result is just an overall, "AHG, FINE, IF YOU'RE SCUM YOU WIN OKAY" which I hate telling players but I have to say all the same.

Or in short:
I hate you.

Ranger now would be a good time to explain your sketchy town read on me from the beggining because I am still wondering on it and it might help a little

I'm pretty sure I did this a long time ago. I'm almost positive the reason for it was strong gut. If there was a reason, I lost it. I just really didn't think your RVS was scum; it looked like a natural town RVS, and I was reading it and Alexcellent's in the same manner.

Since then, I have to admit that's weakened. In part because of Stack The Deck, actually: there, you were disengaged town, and replaced out. I couldn't help but have the thought: why was Alpaca disengaged town in

that

game (which was rather engaging), but didn't replace out of

this

game, which...well, I think you can check the number of replacements and game length to figure out why THIS game feels like the game you

should

have replaced out of. Yet you didn't. So the initial townread is gone, replaced by the paranoia that you stayed in this game because you were scum in the know. But that's a horrible reason, and one I also know isn't absolute. Kuroi, also from Stack The Deck, replaced out of it, yet in a similarly-disengaging game (Something_Smart's UPick), he didn't replace out...and was town there, so it's definitely not a hard-scumread and is literally the only possible doubt I have on you; there's nothing suspicious about your play otherwise.

^ was the last time ranger said anything particularly interesting about another player (other than pushing btd to vote me instead of her), nearly two weeks ago. She also proclaimed that a scum tell is being disinterested without subbing out. I'm not certain I agree w it, but this is her own stated beliefs. And she's by all appearances disinterested without subbing out, which in her own words is a scum tell.

On a related note, i think I'll just quote crunkus here...

A short, general list of things that constitute legitimate reasons for thinking someone is scum.

You infer that:

• someone knows something they shouldn't know if they are town.
  
• someone is lying about something for a reason that they do not believe benefits the town.
  
• someone is doing something with a motive other than to figure out the town's puzzle or persuade the town to work toward what is perceived by that person to be a town-oriented desired goal.

You'll notice none of these things work on people who are more concerned with their own survival than any of the listed town motivations. That should be play made unambiguously scum. I don't care what role you have. In the end, playing like a townie

in a healthy town

works TOWARD the goal of your survival. But unfortunately, some people do not realize the indirect consequences of their actions upon other players. This can, by the way, include having a direct impact upon THEIR ability to enjoy the game.

You'll notice it also doesn't work if a townie isn't trying to figure out the town's puzzle or persuade anyone of anything.

You'll notice being wrong isn't on the list. You'll notice trying to be influential isn't on that list. You'll notice being persistent and intense is not on that list.
...

Rangers play on d2 onward has, IMO, unambiguously been focused inward, with substantive discussion focused primarily on herself and relating either directly to defense or to pushing people pushing her (and the day one IV push was, if you recall, also against someone pushing on her). You'll notice, if you care to, a lack of substance behind many if her reads, even when questioned. You'll notice, if you care to, a persistent lack of

motive...to figure out the town's puzzle or persuade the town to work toward what is perceived by that person to be a town-oriented desired goal

If ranger is in fact town (which I continue to doubt) then she's right that this was a flat out terrible game for her. The bad reads (iv and me, possibly m&m too) were part of it, of course, but what's worse is the lack of energy and effort to change that state of affairs. That's the part that I simply can't reconcile w town!ranger. Like, this came a month ago

This game's going in my wiki as one of my worst games ever, period, end of discussion. Even if it turns out that {you, mhsmith} are the scum, the VAST inconsistency and lack of strength behind my push would render any and all credit I'd deserve for those callouts moot. And obviously, if you're not scum (I just don't know anymore), then I don't know who the second would be. I think mhsmith is scum. But that's all I have.

And since then, Rangers been even more disengaged w the game than when she said that. And more than anything else, I think that's what's damning. If she's town dissatisfied w the game state performance she'd work to fix things (poking at people, asking questions, re-reading, or even just talking about her town reads in depth in order to be useful there). If she's scum worried about spew and satisfied w a smith lynch on d3, she'd avoid saying anything useful, and talk about herself in ways designed to look reasonably townie. She's done the latter.

[mhsmith0]

By the way, @btd

someone is lying about something for a reason that they do not believe benefits the town.

Is why you were obv!wolf when you retracted your fake seer claim in rangers micro on d2. Town failing to lynch you there (and even more ridiculously on d3 considering letting you live to d4) was the low light of the game for them. You 100% should have rolled w that fake seer claim as long as you could. Maybe even throw in a "role blocked" bit on a night since they were apparently willing to eat it up.

[mhsmith0]

So here's the thing. I can't tell if this is you legitimately being honest about where you are wrt this game, or if this is you just using that as cover. And yes, I certainly agree that this seems to be your absolute bottom priority game. I can't tell if that's AI, but I don't particularly think that, if it's AI, it'd be town-indicative.

And as far as where to start goes... maybe ask questions? Maybe prod and poke people and see how they react? Maybe give more substance to some of your reads (even if they're town reads instead of scum reads, or make it clear why they're neutral). Like, if you're a wolf, things are going great for you, and if you're town, they're really not. And I look at you and you're not really doing anything to change the game state, and I simply struggle to see how that's a reasonable town perspective.

I also look at you, and you're just really far outside the range of what I'd expect from town!Ranger. What make me nervous here is that I feel like as a wolf you'd probably be more interested in pretending to be productive, but at the same time, I don't find it convincing that town!Ranger is truly this disinterested in the game state, or that town!Ranger would have pushed that bad case on pretty obv!town IV on day one (engaging w everyone, actively trying to game-solve, and you basically pounced on a fairly minor point), etc.

And the thing is, if you're town then we're probably going to lose because the momentum of the game state seems to be towards lynching us both in some order... and if I go down, I really don't see why I wouldn't want to take you down with me. Because I really don't see where the wolves are if you're town.

[mhsmith0]

PS

I did?
This is news to me.

I mean, I've never willingly left a game.
So I don't see how I could have said something like that, when my inclination is to not start.

that was based on

why was Alpaca disengaged town in that game (which was rather engaging), but didn't replace out of this game, which...well, I think you can check the number of replacements and game length to figure out why THIS game feels like the game you should have replaced out of. Yet you didn't. So the initial townread is gone, replaced by the paranoia that you stayed in this game because you were scum in the know. But that's a horrible reason, and one I also know isn't absolute. Kuroi, also from Stack The Deck, replaced out of it, yet in a similarly-disengaging game (Something_Smart's UPick), he didn't replace out...and was town there, so it's definitely not a hard-scumread and is literally the only possible doubt I have on you; there's nothing suspicious about your play otherwise.

that was based on your stated read of Alpaca on the basis of "why havne't you subbed out if you're disengaged". Given that you never replace out (and I don't think you'd bother lying about something that easily verifiable), though, I'll withdraw that point.

[mhsmith0]

I'm still curious what dgb's Panther read is, I'd like to hear the vote basis from her before doing anything. I'll admit to not being remotely impressed by "what's wrong with my vote?" as a response to "why did you vote there"

[mhsmith0]

this game...

this site actually

[mhsmith0]

This game has tree-stumps!

COOL

I love to drive people nuts after I'm NK'd

Stumpage only applies to VTs who are lynched I believe.

This is correct.

[mhsmith0]

Talk about your read on me? Why do you think I'm a wolf?

[mhsmith0]

I only have a null read on you

I'm just being a team player

1) you're l-1'ing a null read "to be a team player"? Why not push/case a scum read?
2) why null on me? What about my iOS makes you think town? What makes you suspicious?
3) what was the source of your seeming scum reads on alpaca and Panther?

[mhsmith0]

And your thoughts on alpaca and Panther, your previous votes?

[mhsmith0]

But they're so complicated and tedious questions LOL

Here's the simple version.

You townread smith.
You learned what the setup is and then that negated your townread on smith.
Why?

I think it's fairly obvious what DGB is getting at. The only question is if she's lying about it.

[mhsmith0]

[quote="In post 1362, Titus"]Theory, spamming, and self-doubt.
/quote]

Please clarify what/who you're discussing here.

[mhsmith0]

VOTE: mhsmith0

OK let's do this Titus

Do you have a read here or is it just "screw it let's get a lynch"?

[mhsmith0]

I don't suppose you could point out the post and explain your feelings?

[mhsmith0]

But they're so complicated and tedious questions LOL

Here's the simple version.

You townread smith.
You learned what the setup is and then that negated your townread on smith.
Why?

I think it's fairly obvious what DGB is getting at. The only question is if she's lying about it.

I want to lynch him for the above.

^

You softed the shit out of your firefighter claim in a very obvious way. Unless the wolves were extraordinarily dumb or lazy they wouldn't have missed it. "Don't lynch smith ever -> now I know the setup -> oh wait never mind" is a doc claim to anyone paying any reasonable amount of attention (which is why I didn't get why Panther was asking about it). Like, it COULD have been pr cover, and at the least you should have rolled w that notion.

[mhsmith0]

My text didn't appear that's weird anyway.

@Smith - what do you have to say about the above

Yes. I threw doubt on it and changed the conversation away from "hey dgb I'm gonna keep bugging you about it until you answer". She was probably claiming PR, I threw it into doubt under the "she may be lying" theory. Idk what the better approach would have been there.

At any rate, no one should vote anything until everyone weights in on cc'ing or not. Especially Panther.

[mhsmith0]

I mean, I don't know how dgb could have been any more obvious about it short of hard claiming. I really don't.

[mhsmith0]

Well maybe I should

Seeing that I am certain that I will be doused and incinerated tonight

Btw players get primed OR incinerated in a night. So only way you die tonight is if you were already primed.

[mhsmith0]

Ps here's my claim


And you're goddamn right I was kinda hoping to get to claim w a gif like that in this game

[mhsmith0]

Btw "I'm laying PR cover" (or giving non answers that kind of suggest it) was a perfectly fine way to approach the line of questioning IMO. Villagers softing PRs in an open setup isn't unheard of (Panther and I play turbos on MU w open setups w a cop, seer cover is pretty common, partially because it's otherwise too easy for wolves to bunk the cop sometimes)

[mhsmith0]

^ bink

[mhsmith0]

However, I do agree that Mhsmith's reaction to this seems very scummy. It seems as though Mhsmith saw the softing and was trying to rolefish the claim.

???
"Idk, she may by lying" = role fishing??? How? Like, I could MAYBE see an argument for wolf!me trying to out my read before i get lynched in case I miss twilight (although it would be pretty dumb for town to lynch without a claim), but you think I was actively trying to get her to hard claim? What exactly in my posts makes you think this?

[mhsmith0]

@btd: yes or no: did you realize dgb was softing the doc claim before I repsmded to Panther? Alpaca is a no, where were you on this?

[mhsmith0]

Actually I'd like everyone to weigh in on that. Who realized dgb was softing a pr there? Now that she's hard claimed, no point in not being open about it.

[mhsmith0]

So we have alpaca and btd on record as having not seen it. Who else wants to weigh in?

[mhsmith0]

"I'm laying PR cover" referred to how DGB could have handled her approach to Panther's questioning and my comment. 1399 was addressed to her.

Also, did you think she was softing doc at the time, before I made my comment?

[mhsmith0]

My point is that there was nothing in what I was saying that precluded DGB from either hinting that she was just laying cover, or giving a non-answer, or simply ignoring the issue. Non-explicitly pointing out what was (IMO) an already flagrantly obvious doc soft is not role fishing.

PS Alpaca, BTD and Titus are all on record as not CC'ing and not realizing that DGB was softing a doc role. I want to get Panther, Ranger and Xykfyu on record on this as well.

PPS Anyone L-1'ing before everyone has confirmed a non CC is so anti-town as to basically be scum-claiming. Don't even think about it.

[mhsmith0]

@ranger/panther: talk about your Titus read a bit more? Ive seen wolf!titus twice now (mini 1775 as a MYLO sub and mini 1782 as d1 sub, for RC amusingly enough).

In 1775 she made an obviously BS case on dier (which should have gotten her lynched, in addition to the existing case on her slot, if dier and toast hadn't both decided that giving a crap about the game was boring), and in 1782 she was WAY too early and easy on the d3 bussing wagon after roshar blocked huntress's nk. So meta wise I'm not sure I see a great parallel. So what specifically makes you think she's wolf here? If we're going to play "Titus and smith are v/w, hang one if the other flips green" I'd like to see the case on her in clearer definition, since I'd guess mislynches today and tomorrow = loss.

[mhsmith0]

Also...

No death?

Someone knows something. Please leave hints.

I have surgery tomorrow so I won't be active the next couple of days but don't worry I am not forgetting about you all.

Guys

I'm really groggy from painkilers

Don't lynch mhsmith

Mkay? 4 serious

Find someone else to lycnh
VOTE: Alpaca

I'll be back in a couple of days

Why is Mhsmith not dead?

I said NO!!!!

DGB, what's up with your vote on Panther?

Did Panther claim doctor? What's wrong with my vote?

we go from: knows nothing about the setup and has actively projected as much, multiple times
to: knowing the one and only PR in the game

What???????????

Doctor is a common PR and not lynched like ever.

Eaxctly I was totally joking WTH

we go from: knows nothing about the setup and has actively projected as much, multiple times
to: knowing the one and only PR in the game

What???????????

And is this an actual doctor claim????????????????????????????

No death?

Someone knows something. Please leave hints.

I have surgery tomorrow so I won't be active the next couple of days but don't worry I am not forgetting about you all.

This new knowledge invalidates this post

And everything I said about mhsmith

NVM

This is stretching and fucking terrible. Doctor is a common PR and not lynched like ever.

So you immediately went to 'he must have jokingly coincidentally named the 1 pr in the game despite portraying cluelessness as to the open setup'

PP, that's dumb

I joked "doctor" because that's the one role that if claimed, no one would lynch barring a counterclaim.

That ANYONE in this game, much less just about everyone, could claim to have not seen the doc soft from dgb is ludicrous. She was practically shouting it.

[mhsmith0]

But they're so complicated and tedious questions LOL

Here's the simple version.

You townread smith.
You learned what the setup is and then that negated your townread on smith.
Why?

The question answers itself.

1) dgb was protective, protected me last night, based her read on the resulting no kill, then backed off upon bothering to read the setup
2) dgb was pretending to be the protective (either for PR cover as town or for various potential reasons as wolf).

No other answer here is reasonable. Paying attention and exhibiting critical thinking makes it obvious, even without the other hints. No hindsight is needed. Part of my frustration with this town is the strange lack of these things, and I suppose this incident is just another example if it.

[mhsmith0]

Well I guess we will have to see what everyone else has to say in twilight. Why did you think I was mafia again?

^Not a town reaction to thinking he was hammered.

For the record, I happen to know mhsmith is vulnerable to believing this sort of thing, but he did basically nothing after the "hammer".

No attempt at final reads.
No attempt at scumhunting.
No "I was town".
No gambit of "I was scum" like innocentvillager.
Just something weak, like this.

Another one. Why didn't I spam the thread with final reads, even if I had been fooled (and ftr, I was "fooled" in the micro game only for as much time it took me to re check the vote counts to verify)?

The reason was I was a tree, and was very likely to be around as a stump d3 if I'd been lynched. Why didn't I just say that? The reason is again obvious; enough people (ranger and m&m at least, maybe others) had already claimed vt (needlessly), and it was anti town to add my name to the list.

[mhsmith0]

But they're so complicated and tedious questions LOL

Here's the simple version.

You townread smith.
You learned what the setup is and then that negated your townread on smith.
Why?

The question answers itself.

1) dgb was protective, protected me last night, based her read on the resulting no kill, then backed off upon bothering to read the setup
2) dgb was pretending to be the protective (either for PR cover as town or for various potential reasons as wolf).

No other answer here is reasonable. Paying attention and exhibiting critical thinking makes it obvious, even without the other hints. No hindsight is needed. Part of my frustration with this town is the strange lack of these things, and I suppose this incident is just another example if it.

My way is the only town way of thinking is just all around bad play.

@titus: my way isn't the only way, but certain things are obvious to anyone paying attention. This was one of them.

[mhsmith0]

As far as the rest goes, a town this lazy probably has rot at the top, amongst those who should be captain. Kinda like lambert simnel game in that respect. I expect more from ranger than I've seen, but honestly I can't think of ANYONE here who has merited a meaningful town read (beyond the non ccd pr for mechanical reasons). But if you want to lynch another obvious town (which would be MY FIRST MISLYNCH EVER outside a turbo btw), then lol whoever here is town I guess.

[mhsmith0]

Btw I'm gonna more or less rule out a btd/alpaca team despite the fact that they both seem generically wolfy (lurker and active lurker - both were in my range of possible PR for a while for that reason, but now apparently there's no excuse), given the lack of game solving energy elsewhere.

[mhsmith0]

I really just don't think that Smith is scum here.

Awesome; why?

I'd really like people to substantiate reads on people as much as they can. This would be a helpful spot for it tbh.

[mhsmith0]

Hey, if you're town, your attitude is part of the problem. If you dismiss anyone who doesn't agree with you as simpletons or lazy, no one wants to work with you. People process things in different ways.

DGB's mistake could have been she didn't understand how trees worked, throwing PR cover or something else entirely. We didn't know at the time.

So how's about treating us like we're equals and engaging reads rather than peacocking about how you outed our PR.

^ part of why I think Titus is town. I think making this post (screw you for calling me dumb and/or lazy) is outside her wolf range barring good evidence to the contrary.

[mhsmith0]

That said, ranger referenced "flags" and I'm curious what those are.

[mhsmith0]

Ouch and then you go insulting my scumgame when I am widely regarded as one of the best scum players. At least you seem to be clueless.

Ranger just displayed a big red flag of being scum if you are town mhsmith. Since you're so much better than me, I bet you already know right?

I think you're a good wolf player (better than me, and I think I said that in dead/post game chat in both 1775 and 1782). I think that specific post, and the emotional state that underlies it, is difficult to make as a wolf, especially quickly. I think your wolf game success is more about being able to make reasonable sounding cases against townies than it is being able to effectively fake town perspective/emotions, though again my sample size is 2 and one f them you were barely in since it was a MYLO sub.

I don't think that's insulting at all; if it was I apologize for it.

[mhsmith0]

Wrt Titus in more detail

A bit more on tone/emotion for the curious (and I'll admit that I AM NOT good at this, but like I said, some people are). Key paragraph blown up

I don't have time to adequately respond to that post but one thing I can say quickly is that when I'm talking about emotions, I'm specifically excluding anger. It's the easiest emotion to fake and it's one that is often not alignment-indicative even when it is genuine, unless it can be traced to an origin in something distinctly villagery.

Emotions like pride, paranoia, surprise, suspicion, etc, are more difficult to fake. Wolves often fail to even identify spots in which emotion should be present in their posting, and their efforts at actually displaying more complex emotions are often quite clumsy, for example by stating their supposed feelings rather than displaying them

.

But in the case of Cron, a lot of what was clearing for him was just the sheer depth and breadth of his reads and interactions. It's just hard to fake that much content so quickly and make it sound good. And few wolves are ever going to stalk other players' online statuses in order to catch lurkers.

If someone has evidence that Titus wolf game specifically includes being good at fake emotion, cool, but otherwise I struggle to see wolf!her making those specific posts in that spot.

[mhsmith0]

Those posts are not good for Ranger. I would have said no to Panther if I thought this was their only site. Other sites with Panther, I could see them reading and thinking legit scumclaim if I squint.

@mhsmith, You know why Ranger's proposition to lynch us back to back is bad if you're town and she's scum?

Ranger pushing IV for that comment as a scumclaim isn't good at all. Ranger would know better. Scumtopics on this site are not quick topics but private topics.

Yes I know why it's bad, as tomorow is PROBABLY at least MYLO. That's part of why I want to see ranger flesh out that read today, pre lynch. "There are flags" doesn't really cut it at this point.

[mhsmith0]

The two games I was in with wolf!titus replacing in.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

The "fuck you" attitude wasn't really there much in either game. Notably, in 1782 it pops up in post 1861 as a response to an AI accusation (lurking) against her, as opposed to this game where it pops up as a response to my "this town was lazy" bit.

Looking at the game ranger and Titus just finished, it's a similar story there.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=66922

Someone described Harb (a very good player on playdip) as basically being affable and reasonable while pushing mislynches. In a three game sample size, that seems to fit Titus's wolf meta pretty well too (though she's likelier to get actively angry/hostile when pressured). I look at this game and don't see similar tendencies. Like, at all. Or, as panther would say, "VAST TONAL GULF".

Ps town game from Titus. Hostility and bluntness jumps off the page
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

This game
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go
Not 100% in line w town game but WAY closer to that than her three wolf games.

At any rate if someone wants to show a scum!titus game where the tone/approach is similar to this game, cool, but otherwise I'm just not seeing it.

[mhsmith0]

I'll also talk about why I town read that particular moment from Titus in more detail if people are curious. Likely not until tonight though.

[mhsmith0]

I'm still thinking ranger is wolf but want to re read. There's something specific nagging me wrt one of her posts that I want to think on, and I want to re read others too. Notably, I want to see if I get a stronger read on alpaca or btd now that I know neither was lurking / active lurking due to being a pr. That's a weekend thing tho tbh.

[mhsmith0]

so 50/50 in there. the only world I've ruled out as w/w is Titus/Smith so it probably makes sense to check if I can rule Alpaca/BTD out as w/w

Thoughts on alpaca and btd as possible w/w? My PoE at this point is basically {ranger, btd, alpaca}, but I think alpaca is the likeliest to be town in there and I think ranger/btd fits reasonably well w the game state.

[mhsmith0]

BTD6_maker is a hard read. I don't see a lot of good from him. I don't remember anything particularly egregious from him either, though, so he has that in his favor.

Other than...
- the hammer vote with a blame-deflecting "hey you can still scum hunt" and an absurd "scum would be likely to fake claim tree"
- the return to the blame-deflecting mindset when talking themselves into a ranger vote in 292
- the "ranger v smith is v/w" in 626
Etc.

Seriously, ranger, talk through your btd read, because your consistent lack of curiosity wrt that slot really makes me think your engagement there is just strategic. If you are town and have an actual town read there you REALLY need to justify it.

[mhsmith0]

^was 632 not 626.

[mhsmith0]

Who are you currently town reading and why? Who are you currently scum reading and why? The beetle juice appearance is amusing, but what do you have to say about players other than yourself?

[mhsmith0]

Define "later". This game day? Within 24 hours? Game day ends 8/9 and it's entirely reasonable of me to demand actual content from your slot. For someone with over 100 posts your content has been sorely lacking other than self defense, and it's now confirmed that you are NOT just the town pr hiding out.

[mhsmith0]

OK, < 48 hours left. What is everyone's lynch pool for today?

Mine: {ranger, btd, alpaca}

[mhsmith0]

@alpaca: your lynch pool. Go.

[mhsmith0]

@alpaca: your lynch pool. Go.

I'm down for you BTD and I could possibly be swayed on ranger

What convinced you on me and ranger? What convinced you on town for the other players?

[mhsmith0]

@panther: why Titus over alpaca and btd?

[mhsmith0]

Ranger having 3 votes is a travesty though

Have you read her posts?

Smith- you were just in the same game with her as me. You didn't listen to me there. I've got her down. Her soul belongs to me. She's screaming villager. Idk if it's bc we are similar or what but I find her to be one of the easiest reads among all people I've ever played with

I continue not to see it. At all. it's frustrating because you're really not explaining it, unless it's just that one post you cited a while ago.

I'll compromise on btd if a wagon builds up there. I'll also hammer myself to avoid another no lynch just to move the game forward if I have to, but obviously that's not the ideal outcome since it's just a town lynch.

[mhsmith0]

Rather lynch ranger but sure
VOTE: btd6

[mhsmith0]

Talk about your town reads on the other players. Why do you have them for town? And if you got a bad gut read on Titus for thinking it was Panther/me, why did you park your vote on me? Did you think Titus and I were teammates?

[mhsmith0]

^many words, little useful. Your strongest town read and why. Go.

[mhsmith0]

Lynch pool is me, ranger, btd. Pick one. I will hammer myself or ranger if one is l-1 and btd doesn't go through.

[mhsmith0]

Alpaca and panther, you both have expressed that btd is in your lynchables (#1 for a while on alpaca). Please come by and vote or explain why you're opposed to doing so.

[mhsmith0]

Dgb is non ccd pr. Unless you're cc ing, throwing shade there is meaningless.

As far as it being critical to lynch I agree. Rangers my #1 but you're my #2 and I'm willing to compromise on you.

[mhsmith0]

Right now your lynch looks most feasible of all as there are three vites with two more players explicitly willing to lynch you based on previously stated preferences.

[mhsmith0]

A majority is willing to lynch you. Why would I switch if the object is to achieve a lynch?

[mhsmith0]

Name them. You'd make 4 who's the 5th?

[mhsmith0]

Actually alpaca is (I think) NOT willing to compromise on ranger. Where did he say or suggest that he was?

[mhsmith0]

Also, who do YOU actually want lynched besides "not you"? Do you even care if it's me or ranger? If not, why not?

[mhsmith0]

Going to the movies, back before EOD. My intentions are as stated.

[mhsmith0]

I'm here. I will hammer ranger, btd or even myself. Will be here until deadline.

[mhsmith0]

Ranger needs votes. I won't vote BTD.

Why do you have a town read on btd?

[mhsmith0]

Still around.

[mhsmith0]

One hour.

[mhsmith0]

If you and Titus choose to vote me near deadline I'll hammer myself, though I'd much rather see btd or ranger get rope.

[mhsmith0]

Yep.

[mhsmith0]

still around, will hammer if I can't get ranger or btd and I get another vote. The first of which is looking likely.

[mhsmith0]

actually
VOTE: mhsmith0
I am 100% serious on this. Hammering my obv!town ass is still better than no lynch. So have at it I guess. Ignoble way for the "never mislynches" streak to end but so be it.

[mhsmith0]

And I'm still gonna be suspected again tomorrow for "reasons". Two people Titus and btd have stated suspicions on me, either could come in and "call my bluff". and im pretty sure Titus is even around right now! Like I am LOCK clear unless Titus is my buddy and lol that given our interactions.

[mhsmith0]

So yes hammer me today but tomorrow I'm going to OMGUS like crazy anyone who pushes me in what is probably LYLO.

[mhsmith0]

Three minutes left. Once again Im here at EOD, once again town no lynches barring a last second pop in.

[mhsmith0]

Titus if you're online just hammer me. Or Panther or anyone else not yet on me. Better than a no lynch.

[mhsmith0]

Barring a miracle come back I'm gonna be super salty post game.

[mhsmith0]

I don't know if quarth will take an overtime hammer, but someone at least try?

[mhsmith0]

I'm going to bed.

I don't blame you.

[mhsmith0]

Titus, talk all about why you didn't hammer me on the last day town knew it could afford a mislynch.

[mhsmith0]

VOTE: Ranger

With 2 No Lynches we really need to start lynching. Ranger and Mhsmith have escaped the lynch for too long.

Says a person who could have shown up at EOD yesterday to lynch me but didn't bother.

[mhsmith0]

Ok I'll buy that I guess.

[mhsmith0]

Yeah no. This is probably LYLO, I not cutting discussion off that fast. We do need to lynch, but not within 24 hours of game start.

[mhsmith0]

If you want to vote Ranger I can unvote and switch to Titus.

^ you're well inside my PoE, I'm not handing you an easy quick hammer opportunity.

[mhsmith0]

Gg I guess. Tell us your buddy or do we get to wait to see if we get lucky tonight somehow?

[mhsmith0]

Gg I guess. Tell us your buddy or do we get to wait to see if we get lucky tonight somehow?

If it's a miss I'm banking on a save or a lynch on a target

That wasn't a scum hammer that was a this game has been going on for 3 months without a flip and I'm online with an L1

Felt like one, especially given that you'd been town reading ranger, and Titus wasn't far from a lynch herself. Will admit my gut in these isn't always right tho *shrugs*

[mhsmith0]

Btw, dgb you need to STFU about who you protected n1/n3 just in case it wasn't obvious already.

[mhsmith0]

Fwiw, presuming an ignite tonight (highly likely even if ranger flips red... Obviously it's likely if the wolves have a chance to end it and if I actually just explained how the game works to them then I honestly don't even care ), if it doesn't end the game look at who got burned and see where opinion shifted on the slot in an odd way from one day to the next. No lynches have been great for the wolves, but they'd also have not wanted to lynch a primed slot most likely (lol wolves if they didn't pick that strategy idea up tho I guess).

[mhsmith0]

gut says it was a gg hammer but I guess we'll see

[mhsmith0]

Fwiw I'm sorry for tunneling you so hard early on. Another L to the list I guess

[mhsmith0]

My guess is Panther-Titus or Panther-alpaca. Idk why but I don't think Panther-btd fits. Lol me if that's what it was and we came THAT close to a d3 turnaround tho *shrugs*

Ps my personal low point was a six-game losing streak across alignments. I also remain utterly baffled why my scum game (non-turbo) record is near .500 but my town game record (non-turbo) has been horrific. Some of the games have been bad luck, but I honestly think my town game is overall pretty decent so idk.

[mhsmith0]

Considering those reads are pretty horrific, I can see why your record is the way it is.

Presuming ranger is town, your major pushes this game were her and me. If you're town this wasn't much of one to remember for you either.

[mhsmith0]

You think ranger bothers to post this way post hammer as scum? I mean I guess it's possible but town fake-claiming scum post hammer (ala IV) I can see, while scum fake-claiming town in twilight achieves... what exactly? Like, why would she bother to do that and risk creating genuine-looking townreactions to what seems like a game over moment to the naked eye?

[mhsmith0]

Figured it was a loss there. Oh well I tried. Gg all.

Ps Panther, were you role fishing on dgb there? At the time I thought yes but literally everyone else was saying they had no clue on it.

[mhsmith0]

Also to mod for posting day start and giving me false hope. Also lol me for thinking not Panther/btd at the last minute.

[mhsmith0]

If you want to vote Ranger I can unvote and switch to Titus.

This is a flagrant "wolf or VI" claim given the context. Unfortunately vi was possible.

VOTE: Ranger

YOLO

This was the epitome of a gg hammer. To paraphrase benneh in star fox, Panther you were still wolfing after lol hammering in LYLO. Just start posting lolcats at that point like a decent human being

Ps sorry to ranger for being wrong on you. At least I can feel good about my m&m->xk read so I wasn't totally wrong on everything. Then again lol me for town reading kappys eod1. Panther felt plausibly wolfy but that read persisted. Alas. Definitely not one of my better town games.

[mhsmith0]

Yeah sorry I should have stepped away from my ranger read to go to btd. Btd was basically scum-claiming all game but they kinda do that as town too (though not quite as blatantly) so they're super hard to read.

[mhsmith0]

Still, Panther played very well, solid congrats to him. Well done.

[mhsmith0]

Panther usually has more drive/aggression as town. He pinged me a bit, but in a game where town reads were insanely hard to find, I couldn't lynch everybody. Of course, it turned out that I couldn't lynch ANYBODY.

Wrt you, my case on you from the start was valid. Your IV hammer was basically a scum claim, and your play was more inward and defensive than your normal town game. I got sidetracked on ranger and her seemingly super-scummy day one and her seemingly bizarre town read on you and her unwillingness to explain it or really own it. I figured it was because she made the whole thing up. In retrospect I was wrong. And of course, once you have a raging scum read on someone, it's incredibly hard to see your way out of it. I maintain I tried... but clearly I didn't try hard enough.

[mhsmith0]

Ok at this point we just need a lynch. I am pretty sure titus is town and I am also pretty sure BTD is scum but at least this will put an end to the Ranger debate
VOTE: Range

By the way in LYLO this was also a scum claim (just by a town).

[mhsmith0]

Only if you thought I was an idiot though. I still don't get why town decided to quick-wagon in LYLO but idgi about a lot of stuff this game.

[mhsmith0]

I think the setup was fine tbh.

[mhsmith0]

1.) No submission

lololololololololol

not that it mattered bc we primed that slot. but gosh

Basically my reaction exactly. Did shotty even pick up his role pm?