Open 642 - The Woodshed - Game Over

[PantherPunt]

hello frands

any cliffs I need?

I'll probably start a catch-up in a couple hours

[PantherPunt]

so others know, I just came off of a long game with smith, Ranger, and BTD6 (and briefly Alpaca)

I should be able to stack up their games with their alignment in that one easily. and I own Ranger's soul so if she is mafia here too I fully expect her to shut down in fear

[PantherPunt]

This makes no sense! If he flips scum, you're conftown? No, why would town know he was scum? It would be a coin flip, and no townie wants to take that chance. If he flips scum, the hammerer would be scum.
VOTE: innocentvillager until I understand this logic.

Is not making sense scummy?

-- Mail

who are Music and Mail?

this post is interesting in italics

[PantherPunt]

also timestamps

it seems we are 5 weeks into d2 here? what in the actual fuck

[PantherPunt]

fun fact - I almost quoted a kappy post and called it scummy

I apparently need to re-calibrate that tell

[PantherPunt]

Spoiler:

Now that you've said that, if scum do actually bus, they are taking a huge disadvantage now but are much less likely to face a lynch in the future because everyone thinks scum would never hammer. Hammering scum may still give towncred but you should always consider a lynch on them if necessary in the future.

Well, sure, but it would regardless be hella nice if scum hammered their scumbuddy right now. I'd rather get a scum down on D1 and have the remaining scum be slightly cleared versus having to take down two scum independently.

Wow I realized there were a lot of redundancies in that post, but I hope the meaning extra comes across and you guys can agree with me that Kappy is basically a clear (or provide a good reason why not). Hurray for some progress.

I read it as Kappy making up a reason to move his vote to you. It neither clears him nor condemns him.

I mean your logic would work, IF someone took your post seriously. As I don't and will never believe he, or anyone, did, or that you intended anyone to, it breaks your logic.

@Everyone

if you had to pick one person as scum from the last two pages who would it be?

One of innocentvillager/BTD6_maker. But not together

I'm not sure I understand where you're going with this post. If you're referring to my 44, yeah it obviously wasn't "serious" per se, but it still had some actual strategic basis behind it, as I explained in 50. I think one can still disagree with the logic behind a post about strategy, even if the tone is obviously joking. So, please elaborate on how it somehow "breaks my logic". Regardless of the tone of my post 44, you would still agree with me if Kappy's confusion was genuine, since it is entirely town POV focused without even the slightest consideration for scum POV. But it seems like you're convinced it was fake, because my post was obviously a joke and had zero strategic meaning behind it, so therefore the confusion was fake.

But what I don't get is how if you read that as "Kappy making up a reason to vote me" that you can still say it doesn't clear nor condemn him. If you really think he's making up a bullshit reason, how doesn't that condemn him?

VOTE: KickAssAndGiggle

until I understand this discrepancy

BTD6, I haven't seen you give any reads yet or true thoughts on the game despite the fact that you have the second highest number of posts (granted, we are kind of barely out of RVS). I think we're at the point where we can talk about more than just occasionally butting in about hypothetical theory stuff. Who is scum, what do you think of the discussion on Kappy's post, etc.?

the tell on kappy was voting followed by an "until"

seeing as IV is confirmed town...ya I'm going to throw that one out of my repertoire for a bit

[PantherPunt]

considering the low post count...probably best I don't post as I warp through the thread. I'll compile notes and try to chunk things

[PantherPunt]

FYI M&M was a hydra of Postie and Radiant Cowbells. Town Mafioso (their sub) was an alt of some unknown account. Slot inhabitant #3 is TBD.

I just went back to OP and noticed that actually when I realized they aren't in current VC (VC seems incorrect by the way - there was a vote on Ranger just before it)

what an ugly game activity wise

[PantherPunt]

Yes but at least you get to enjoy round two of "Is BTD6 mislynch bait or wolf", always a super fun game to play

you're not a top mafia player until you learn to discern this. it's seriously the hardest thing about playing on this site
for what it's worth, my initial reaction was wolfy for 57 because he sells his own reads short as if to give himself the option to move away from them or dismiss them if questioned. but I went and looked at Open 644 and he called his own reads 'weak' four times on day 1 so it appears to not be a scumtell on him personally

it's villagery perspective from you either way and I feel pretty good about identifying you from a perspective standpoint so I'm curious to see what your questions look like whenever I make it to your posts

I get to play monday morning quarterback already knowing IV's alignment as I go through, but he's my strongest village read through 5 pages and I have a mild one on Alexcellent, seems to now be Titus slot, for 123 and 124.

I, like others, laughed at Ranger's read list she dropped in 92 bc it looked so much like her early ones from STD (namely the town read on Shadow) and am taking note on who else is incredulous with that Alpaca read. feel like there could be a w/w interaction like that purely based on how ridiculous it was of Ranger but at the very least I think it makes Alpaca/Ranger not w/w considering Alpaca's reaction and Ranger's apparent propensity to just TMI a townread early for an incredibly stupid reason

irrelevant to this game but related wolfmeta - are you familiar with the legend of Yates?

[PantherPunt]

Somewhat, in terms of the key points (I think - unless there was sketchy stuff beyond just the cheating). Some of it I got from Visorslash's "how to play mafia like a champion" (which was awesome). Also Yates's last game (CHEESE - he was wolf and got banned while playing) was the one right before Fruit Salad, so I'd skimmed that before /in'ing.

ok so you're familiar with the cheating - checking scum PTs as a sitemod to be fully informed.

my issue was that I always thought he was a wolf for giving asinine villager reads on people for ridiculous things. it just looked like pure blatant TMI to have a villager read and no paranoia over something that should never ever be alignment indicative let alone something that produced a high confidence in alignment indication. except he'd turn out to be a villager who just had wolf levels of information

my point is that Ranger appears to have that TMI problem that's wolf indicative

I will say that 134 gave me towny vibes in terms of the construction of the wall against RC appearing as though she believed what she was saying. but when comparing the conviction of that read vs where she had her vote and the utter farce that was her justification for the vote on IV, the post turns out to ring very hollow

and actually as I think about that post more I have to refer back to our game we just finished I have a thought about her and percentages

and too bad I don't have to solve IV because he NAILED my thoughts on the "don't know if scum have daytalk" thing Ranger said. when I get suspicious something could mean something dependent on whether or not there's daytalk, I check OP then make up my mind then post. the way in which she made that post seemed forced as she followed up her own post with the "oh they don't have daytalk it's in OP" which screams fake LAMIST

[PantherPunt]

you're not a top mafia player until you learn to discern this. it's seriously the hardest thing about playing on this site

Yeah it's one of my big town game weaknesses (accurately finding other town is another one). A big moral victory for me came in Newbie 1691, where Eggman looked terrible most of the game, and was constantly under pressure, and I correctly ID'd him as town mostly because the cases against him were consistently garbage.

Of course I also drove a mislynch on Ircher that game, and then when Almost50 subbed for Eggman he was so utterly horrific that I mislynched him too ... but at least I bagged KAAG first to avoid the sweep (and I HATE, HATE losing to scum sweeps - I now have three such losses, though Open 635 kinda doesn't count since I subbed in at MYLO and was neither on the ML wagon nor was ML'd).

not gonna lie I thought your constant references to other games and other players was wolfy last game but didn't voice that specifically. if that game wasn't over yet I'd be skeptical of you here but it appears to just be a smith thing. Plotti does it too

idk why - the anecdotes feel like buddying the thread in having something to talk about that's either relatable to someone or is otherwise just a "I learned X in Y situation" so look how I'm applying my experiences to 'solve'

gonna ignore it I guess but maybe less of that is more

[PantherPunt]

Alexcellent (Titus) not a wolf if Ranger is and probably vice versa as well for the bottom of 147. you don't agree with a bro that way you agree with a villager you're looking to buddy

I feel like I'm running away with a Ranger wolf read and want to keep pushing but I have to drive home. will continue catching up at home but hate doing it without taking notes so if I do, I'm either posting everything as I go or just holding off until tomorrow morning

[PantherPunt]

Personally I thought 134 was weirdly oversold. Talked about it more at 602. You'll get there eventually. Still kinda annoyed that the board showed zero curiosity in what I was thinking there before I had to spell it out for everyone.

Also

No, I mean the mhsmith that is town I know will post all angles, IN THREAD, on all players. All of them. And with a very low level of confidence, weakly select the ones he thinks are more likely to be true.

was pretty rich coming right in the middle of 644 and my game-long over-confident tunnel on ploben.

Assuming that's a Ranger post

what do you think of her change in confidence? I went back to the VC where I replaced in and saw her make some post about having no idea where to vote or something along those lines. far cry from what I'm reading on her 100% scum IV read and 95% MM read. I have a thought on it but am want you to weigh in first

[PantherPunt]

I honestly don't know. My gut says it's becuase she has no idea where she can productively push a mislynch (and/or doesn't want to blatantly over-push another "100%" mislynch wagon), but it's plausible as a town "fuck it I don't know and I'm not going to BS a read I don't have" perspective. I don't think it's a particularly AI moment.

PS Yes that was a Ranger post. It was the sort of thing that sounds like it's well thought out, but when you get down to actually thinking about it, is really superficial (since it was based on a game where I was in for like 72 hours, excluding site downtime, before the final mislynch came in). Even on its own it pinged (who makes THAT specific a meta read on someone based on THAT little meta together, especially when she was IC in a newbie game when I was actually a wolf [though she'd died before i subbed in]?), but now knowing she was wolf in 644, it pings even harder.

lol that you were a wolf in that newbie

the entire meta read is backwards. reminds me of "Panther is scum because he KNOWS I am able to provide zero content reads as town" that just had me bertstaring at the screen and lost as to how nobody else saw that she was arguing that she only does that in one alignment. still getting lols from that post as I recall it

[PantherPunt]

had a quick skim of your ISO smith for questions and while some gave me some pause for their superficiality (I got kind of entrenched in the grouping from the latter 400s to 600) I think the tone in 511 is indicative of what I've just seen from you and I like 556 despite disagreeing with your issue there

do you feel your wolf game has progressed since fruit salad and if so, in what way in particular

[PantherPunt]

ok I've stayed at work an extra half hour dicking around on this game I'm actually out

[PantherPunt]

lol that you were a wolf in that newbie

?

was the town metaread she gave of you above not from the game you were a wolf in? as in the meta read is backwards
maybe I misunderstood you but please clarify as this is kind of important to my thoughts on her

the entire meta read is backwards. reminds me of "Panther is scum because he KNOWS I am able to provide zero content reads as town" that just had me bertstaring at the screen and lost as to how nobody else saw that she was arguing that she only does that in one alignment. still getting lols from that post as I recall it

FWIW that back and forth did a pretty decent job convincing me that you really were just reading her for stuff that's Ranger-specific and not necessarily AI for her, which made me think it was basically just a vendetta.

wat? the push on her was to get her to kick her ass into gear. it got her ass kicked into gear and her push back on me made it abundantly clear she wasn't playing form a town perspective. I'm actually trying to be cautious here about vendetta lynching her and if anything am gun shy and fearful I'm just going to make anything she does fit her scum play. I'll have a better picture once I'm through more than 6-7 pages

do you feel your wolf game has progressed since fruit salad and if so, in what way in particular

I think it actually regressed from fruit salad for a while. I just kept doing worse and worse (nothing like continuing to get quick-lynched to kill your wolfing confidence) and it hit rock bottom at Micro 610. Star Fox was nice because I had a lot of fun in wolf chat and somehow survived despite being pretty obv!wolf with a terrible fake cop claim. Then newbie 1714 was nice because I could slide right into an ongoing town meltdown and win basically by PR hunting at night and not fucking up during the day. Overall I think I can probably do a decent job disguising my active lurking when I'm around players who don't know me. I don't know if I can do a decent job imitating my town game.

didn't get anything out of this : /
but not sure I needed to

[PantherPunt]

Don't worry guys. I have it all figured out already. Ranger, BTD, and mhsmith are all scum. So, it doesn't matter who we vote for.

VOTE: Ranger

Just need full clarity here...the first sentence is a joke right?

You're not xkf from 2p2 are you?

[PantherPunt]

who goes on vla for 3 weeks

[PantherPunt]

Hi guys
Who is scum

Well to be frank.
If we knew that, we wouldn't exactly have needed you in the game in the first place.
I've tried. I can't get a solid grip. The closest I've got is mhsmith, and even that's just a guess.

So I stopped my catchup to ISO ranger and of all her posts, this is the one that is blasting me in the face. I don't think Ranger is scum here for a very simple reason.

She's not pushing an agenda.

I've got some scum archetypes nailed down and she's not the kind to play the indecisive card, I don't think. When she has perfect information, I expect her to find something to latch onto and push no matter how shitty it is. It's odd from the standpoint that I don't expect this from my limited experience with her as town, but I just can't wrap my head around her making this post as scum.

[PantherPunt]

like why go from the uberconfident play on IV and MM to saying she's lost?

I have seen that from wolves later in the game when they just push villagers with complete confidence then fall back to the "I don't even know" card later on.

But A) it's day 2

And B) she's on the brink of a lynch

I can maybe see the argument she see's the writing on the wall and doesn't want to spew anyone as town. But I think she's a good enough player to not worry about that and cast suspicion on her partner and town both leaving us pretty up the creek on spew.

Going to resume catching up and see if anything if there's things being overlooked

[PantherPunt]

So there is absolutely no possible short answer to this question?

Never said that. I'm just not in the mood to give blunt answers. Sometimes I will, sometimes I won't. Right now, I won't. Maybe later, I'll feel different and will. But for the time being, deal with it.

Claiming there's a reason while trying not to explain in.

I don't do try. I do, or I do not. I flat-out explicitly am choosing not to explain the townread.

this too btw. long night town ranger: "fuck you" attitude -

Spoiler:

What's the big deal about explaining it anyways when you've been asked politely by several people?

Because it's early-on. I simply don't feel like explaining until it's more relevant.

STD scum ranger: appeasing -

Spoiler:

How did you get a read on Shadow_Step on page 1?

Two sources.
First, mod error. Shadow_step replaced in for a slot who, as Persivul explicitly said, did not pick up their role PMs. If the slot were scum, then we wouldn't have had scum choose the setup.
Second, and using less controversial logic, 17 didn't look like an RVS vote on a scumbuddy.

I don't love giving away my tells on people but this is a semi critical lynch

[PantherPunt]

She's not pushing an agenda.

The agenda is non-committal passive scum.

How much have you read

[PantherPunt]

You're not xkf from 2p2 are you?

who goes on vla for 3 weeks

No.

btw these were separate thoughts

second part was about btd saying he's on vla until august 9th

[PantherPunt]

I'm through the first 200 posts and am finding it hard to find the drive when there is no posting and half the players haven't posted since I subbed in

[PantherPunt]

And I've got the mixed emotions going, like, the one moment, thinking this is you as town being able to detect the difference between my town game and my scum game

I need to add this line to my scum game repertoire because it's sick. I've made this post as town a few times and am accordingly a sucker for it. If this is wolf Ranger then I have no grasp at all on what she's capable of. But there is just a glaringly stark difference between this and what I just came from.

I love doing this where I finish one game and then sub into another with some of the same players because it's where I'm at my best on reading them. Favorite example probably being coming off of Pick Your Poison with town!vedith and starting n1654 where it was blatant he was different and scum. Here it's coming off of blatant scum!Ranger and into this game where there is a seismic shift that represents a VAST TONAL GULF.

I'm going to catch up on the thread to the best of my ability today but I have some things/players I really want to focus on....gl

[PantherPunt]

She's not pushing an agenda.

The agenda is non-committal passive scum.

How much have you read

@DrippingGoofball

- you missed this question. How much have you read?

[PantherPunt]

Oh IV, you sly little devil.

Never mind my 991. The Shotty/DGB slot is town.

BTD and Kappy/Panther are probably town as well.

where did this come from/what is the context?

I have hated two particular shotty posts so far in my read

[PantherPunt]

@panther: I feel like ranger is going back to her "finding shitty things to attack" bit. Maybe I'm conf!biased because she's attacking me, but these attacks seem dumb and reachy IMO.

I also really do think it's suspicious that she's shown basically zero interest in what's going on w btd6 (more on this later today), although given that I suspected you last game for pushing on the wrong people based on what you should know FYPOV, this may be a weaker tell than I thought.

But I'll at least re read. I'm admittedly bad at tone reading, but will see what I can find wrt your "not pushing a scum agenda" bit.

Ps curious what you saw on shotty. I thought his post hammer/scum claim bit was plausibly town indicative, though less so than kappys. Do you disagree that his iso around that point seemed towny?

Oh IV, you sly little devil.

Never mind my 991. The Shotty/DGB slot is town.

BTD and Kappy/Panther are probably town as well.

where did this come from/what is the context?

I have hated two particular shotty posts so far in my read

Post 243. Shotty not only believes IV's scum claim, but he's happy to tell everyone how confident he was in IV flipping scum based on that one post.

I just read through the lynch and twilight. yes I wholeheartedly disagree shotty's posting was town indicative. those posts are super easy to make

I'll go pull the stuff I didn't like and I'll talk about why I didn't like those twilight posts.

[PantherPunt]

Guess this game needs to be shot up(get it)

Hi Ranger!

I've seen you as scum (granted; I was a different scum) and I will be seeing you as mod but I haven't yet seen you as town.

why do you even need to say this. It feels like setting up WIFOM for the future, or buddying.

Anyway since you're basically the only semi active player on here besides Kap atm, again, what do you think of my analysis on Kap's post?

why are you only concerned with people that are active? Are you scum just trying to look busy?

I read it as Kappy making up a reason to move his vote to you. It neither clears him nor condemns him.

So you took the time to clutter the game wit "hey look at that it means nothing!"? why?

"Are you scum just trying to look busy" is horrible perspective. He's literally asking someone a question that has no potential value. What kind of answer are you expecting to get there? "Yes, indeed, I am."????
It's the fact that it's a question that bothers me wrt perspective because it's an attempt to project town based on the perspective of the question, but a question isn't ACTUALLY the appropriate thing there. (Scum know they have to ask questions and find it difficult so they often ask really really bad shallow questions. Hi smith)
If he just said "This looks like scum trying to look busy" that'd have been a major difference in approach and perspective and one that I wouldn't necessarily find towny, but probably more NAI. Whereas, as stated, it's pure fakery.

You don't care that I pissed you off... that contradicts itself. If you didn't care, you wouldn't be pissed off

This compounds the above because it's a fake "GOTCHA." I get suspecting catching someone on a contradiction in thought that indicates that they are fabricating a thought process (and/or read).
But I've found it to be a reliable scumtell that scum will try to call out town contradictions purely for the purpose of shading them, yet many times the contradiction isn't at all relevant to a thought process that's alignment indicative. Shotty is throwing shade here for a contradiction that is irrelevant and plainly said, dumb. This is no way indicates a faked thought process relevant to determining someone's attempt/fake attempt to solve.

[PantherPunt]

mod daytalk?

also iv I think I pegged you.

I called out a Ranger post about this in my catch-up, and later found someone else call it out too. For being a forced townslip. Why does nobody call this out as such? I need to look at who called it out previously yet said nothing about this one. This looks forced because there's nothing to learn from it if coming from an actual villager.

Spoiler:

I recommend priming the person we talked about in post 3 of QT.

Trying to figure out who this is so firefighter knows who to protect. I don't think scum have daytalk, so it's someone they discussed pre game. which means they won't prime based on performance, just on meta and stuff like that. Who's someone IV has a history with?

If anyone tells firefighter who to protect, their protection will be worthless as scum will just avoid priming them.

Also, perhaps IV just mentioned a name somewhere in post 3 of scumtalk and later (during the day) realised that they were a threat. As far as I know, primed and killed players can't post in the thread as stumps.

I'm not telling the firefighter who to protect. I'm giving them a clue so they can decide who to protect on their own.

OK. Now I understand.

I originally thought you were going to actually say who the target was most likely to be.

No. The "Who's someone IV has a history with?" was a rhetorical question, meant for the firefighter to answer in his head.

I figured that out after your post.

By the way, another quote pyramid is building up.

That's the point! I love quote pyramids.

The more we talk about it, the more scum benefit.

This isn't town-indicative. It's an easy easy post to make to look like you're being helpful. And the fact is simple that SOMEONE is going to tell them to shut up about. So why not be the one who does it? These posts are straight NAI.

I recommend priming the person we talked about in post 3 of QT.

Trying to figure out who this is so firefighter knows who to protect. I don't think scum have daytalk, so it's someone they discussed pre game. which means they won't prime based on performance, just on meta and stuff like that. Who's someone IV has a history with?

LOL I promise you won't figure it out

I guess twilight is going on for a bit longer, so meantime I'll make snide comments and laugh at your cluelessness

laugh away. you are dead. This set up is super easy now that you are gone day one.

In no way is this something scum couldn't fake post. I don't know how to describe why I find the wording of it fake, but I do.

I didn't need anything else. That post alone is why I death tunneled you. You gave your self away man.

Same with this one. And it's about IV's reply to his terrible post 71 where I fully agreed with IV's reply to him. His reason was "you're asking others for reads instead of trying to solve" which was 1) demonstrably false and 2) not anything in any game where on page 3 you'd genuinely believe someone "gave themselves away." it's just a fake and bad reason to justify a tunnel on someone

[PantherPunt]

Shit.

UNVOTE: Ranger

Hold up.

we're waiting

[PantherPunt]

VOTE: DrippingGoofball

[PantherPunt]

This looks like an extremely forced attempt to townslip. It's like you're posting this for us to see, not for yourself. If you were town you most likely would've just checked before you posted.

I have a lot more thoughts, but I am out of time for now.

Ah, it was IV. Guess he couldn't call shotty for it when he was in the middle of a scumclaim gambit

[PantherPunt]

In post 243, drmyshottyizsik wrote:
I didn't need anything else. That post alone is why I death tunneled you. You gave your self away man.

Same with this one. And it's about IV's reply to his terrible post 71 where I fully agreed with IV's reply to him. His reason was "you're asking others for reads instead of trying to solve" which was 1) demonstrably false and 2) not anything in any game where on page 3 you'd genuinely believe someone "gave themselves away." it's just a fake and bad reason to justify a tunnel on someone

The strenth of Shotty's reasons is completely irrelevant. It is painfully clear that Shotty believed that he had caught scum.

Disagree. And I think that this post was the only post that looked potentially more fake

Alpaca's awakward "this is a long twilight" pinged me out to. Like he was fearful of saying anything about the situation

[PantherPunt]

Speaking of Alpaca's awkward avoidance of comment...I want to know if anyone else was on MS at the time but chose to abstain from saying anything at all. Sit tight

[PantherPunt]

So every single player posted during twilight except KAAG, but he hasn't posted on MS as a whole in nearly 7 weeks

interestingly, Alexcellent came in and posted a prodge which he simultaneously posted in n1713

however, he came back into n1713 and posted 5 times between 1:19PM and 3:05PM, then once more again at 10:21PM

all during the time this game was in twilight before the flip was posted at 11:04PM

that's a major ping..going to relook at his posts bc I had him as villagy on my initial read through the day

[PantherPunt]

Smith you're giving me some heebie jeebies

[PantherPunt]

I talked about how I evaluate you on depth and amount of questions you ask (more and deeper = town with a pretty strong correlation historically; unsure if you were previously aware)

And you seem explicitly focused on asking questions that appear thoughtful. And the distinct lack of declaratory statements makes me feel like you're a) pandering and b) avoiding stances

[PantherPunt]

I'm in the middle of re reading. I still think it's ranger, but the sheer volume of bad or unstated reads (or just bandwagoning) in this game makes me hesitate. I'm also trying to find evidence one way or the other on whether she's pushing an agenda. I also don't know what it means that she (IMO) finds something shitty to attack pretty soon after you said scum!ranger would find something shitty to attack. Like, that's just super brazen of her if she's a wolf... But that also could just be wifom in a game where I feel like she's been playing that card.

Ps do you agree that it was a shitty attack? Or do you think there was something legit there?

I don't agree. If I understand correctly, she's saying you're not evaluating every slot and waffling enough to be town. The unfortunate part of it is that her evaluation that you're narrowly focused is undoubtedly affected by the fact that the narrow focus is on her. But I personally know that I best read people when they push me. If for something that I believe they believe, I can townread them. If it's pure horseshit (a la Ranger in Stack the Deck), it's basically them claiming scum to me.

I haven't labored through your ISO yet to know if you seem too narrowly focused. But that's probably prudent to see if you were following the same "ask questions, declare little" style prior to me telling you about that in Stack the Deck. If so, I'm willing to ride that at least for day 2 here

[PantherPunt]

I didn't. I ISO'd Ranger and ctrl+f'd your name. 1025 1026 are addendums to a case she made about how you're approaching the game. are you saying that 1025 and 1026 are solely her case?

[PantherPunt]

I almost said what she said in 1026 before she did.

And I did get that impression of you in LyLo, yes. Not prior to that..so I can kind of see that that is differentiated. When you know your decision is game-losing vs game-continuing you should be looking at everyone and constantly reevaluating.

Are you just saying that's a bad meta read? or that's misrepresentation of your game here thus far?

[PantherPunt]

side note that Titus's lack of presence is concerning. I'd say the thread has a dadv feel except the whole game has been dead so it's hard to say the wolves are just happy with the direction of day and hanging back. half of the living players have made count-on-one-hand posts since I replaced in

[PantherPunt]

Spoiler: Not Game Related

Titus I once again registered for the LSAT and didn't show up on test day

[PantherPunt]

Take care Titus

is mhsmith town?

depends who you ask. what do you think? also, how much have you read (for 3rd time)

[PantherPunt]

going to be largely absent until the 25th but I'll do my best to check in regularly on mobile. I say this like I'm not going to be top/2nd poster over that time

[PantherPunt]

Smith talk to me about btd and his ignoring of questions

[PantherPunt]

I'm not going to slap on an l-1 before an official claim from ranger in case someone lol hammers using the deadline as an excuse.

Also what's your dgb read?

Yuck dude

[PantherPunt]

Still think ranger is town. Nobody interested in a shotty slot vote.

I'd move to Btd or Titus. Will check back before deadline

[PantherPunt]

I could vote smith for that post alone

That's also viable

[PantherPunt]

so during night I thought about whether or not I would have hammered Ranger just to have her flip or if I would have taken the no lynch instead. it's almost always correct to drop the hammer there, but I'm not sure I would have done it. I would have screamed for another viable wagon on someone who had claimed vt. not sure if anyone has though...and cfd'ing onto someone else who wasn't around was potentially worse EV than just letting the no lynch go through

sorry I wasn't around..was daydrinking at a golf outing and was asleep by 8. but I probably wouldn't have hammered Ranger anyways unless I woke up still pretty drunk

[PantherPunt]

@BTD6

what is the deal with always ignoring any questions you are asked. thought you were scummy as hell in stack the deck and dunnstral (scum) continued to push you because you avoided answering his questions something like 6-7 times in a row

I asked smith toward EOD what a post reminded him of and I was alluding to that. you're always going to be lynched when you refuse to cooperate...I'm hoping you can correct this for the sake of your overall game as either alignment

[PantherPunt]

hot take: smith and titus aren't w/w

seriously though..I pride myself on detecting theatrical distancing...I'm really fucking good at it. the past two pages aren't that

[PantherPunt]

We have about 13 hours until deadline. If you believe Ranger is town, defend her and case an alternative. If you are not sure Ranger is town, you should be voting her. Ranger should claim immediately.

I'm not going to slap on an l-1 before an official claim from ranger in case someone lol hammers using the deadline as an excuse.

Also what's your dgb read?

I could vote smith for that post alone

That's also viable

Why?

as has been discussed, you are hard on ranger all day as scum. I say I'm seeing things that are much different than the scum game I just saw from her. You immediately unvote (felt pockety as someone noted..ranger?)

then you're back on Ranger, and when it comes time to make a decision, you say you're not putting her on l-1 for fear of lolhammer. really?

as has been mentioned, it felt like you were trying to be off wagon and I can't help but think it's an additional attempt to pocket me. then you 180 to high and mighty I can't believe we couldn't get a ranger lynch off when its 20 min to eod. it's just all inconsistent and I struggle to see how it's a genuine progression from the uninformed

[PantherPunt]

Smith is on L-1

[PantherPunt]

by the way. as much as I'd love a day length more similar to what I'm used to, we need to hear from everyone and we need a viable counterwagon

smith?

[PantherPunt]

oh wait lynch is still 5 since there are 8 voters. so nevermind the L-1 thing

5 votes with 8 alive is fucking tough. this site is dumb for not having plurality deadline lynches when maj isn't reached before deadline. but in this particular instance I think it worked out

[PantherPunt]

Ranger, DrippingGoofball, BTD6_maker, Titus, mhsmith, PantherPunt, Xkfyu, AlpacaAlpaca

not voting Ranger or xkfyu today as it stands

still marinating on drippinggoofballs derpclear

[PantherPunt]

@DG

talk to me about how you play games when you sub in. as much detail as you're willing to provide in terms of your approach would be wonderful

like: first, I .......
then, I typically ......
then, .......

there has to be some habitual steps you take

[PantherPunt]

why did you want to not vote ranger from the time you unvoted to the time you revoted?

your second question is literally idiotic. I can't even parse the first question, but obviously you've already been accused of faking frustration. and if you're a wolf and Ranger is a villager (more certain of the latter), then it's easy to project righteous anger because getting ranger lynched actually does advance your wincon and you're able to project it as frustration that nobody is around and a "suboptimal" town play is happening

[PantherPunt]

and after some meta reading on DG, I'm inclined to give him a pass on that derp

so I find myself with a 50% chance at lynching scum in the pool of btd, titus, smith, alpaca

and I am confident titus/smith is not w/w at this point. so now it's just a question of rereading, asking questions, worldbuilding

I just played out a bunch of scenarios and worst case we have 1 mislynch. we have some outs to give us more than 1 mislynch, but unfortunately they'd need to be double outs. ie we'd need players to have been saved and/or a combination of mislynching players who have been doused. just saving 1 or mislynching 1 douse does not buy us an extra ML afaict

so ya a wolf lynch today is pretty paramount

[PantherPunt]

smith - I want your tippity top pick for a wolf and then your secondary pick. as fast as possible preferably

[PantherPunt]

Except that as a wolf, a no lynch advances my win con. So you're arguing that I'm faking frustration at an event that actually helps my win con. Walk me through this?

Ps wrt ranger you'd made an interesting case and I was thinking on it. But I didn't have any better votes, and I was still thinking it was likely ranger.

a mislynch furthers your wincon more than a no-lynch, no? so it's not hard to fake frustration. also makes no sense to me why you're taking this particular line - the line that "well as wolf I'm happy with no lynch so there" as a type of defense. rather than "I'm a villager and thought and still think wolf!Ranger so I wanted it to happen"

smith - I want your tippity top pick for a wolf and then your secondary pick. as fast as possible preferably

Ranger still #1 guess

no real clue on the other. I basically have shit for town reads too, so no help on that end.

And I'm curious what happens w this wagon on me; maybe a wolf will do something dumb along the way. We'll see.

if I told you I would vote you over Ranger, would that light a fire under your ass to do some digging and come up with a different counter wagon to start?

options I'd hear you out on today are btd, titus, and alpaca

[PantherPunt]

I need to be done with mafia for the day.

See yall tomorrow

[PantherPunt]

Hey Panther. Hiii.

Did you just figure out I'm in the game

[PantherPunt]

Also, who here would you be willing to lynch, and who wouldn't you be willing to?

Alpaca - for someone who was beating the "you ignored my question" drum......

I'd like to know this as well. As long with a brief as you'd like explanation for each name you throw out, just so long as I can see what your reason is

hot take: smith and titus aren't w/w

What does this mean?

w=wolf. vernacular thing for me being used to calling mafia/scum wolves. so not w/w means not scum/scum. you could probably get that from the context of my post where I said it's not theatrical distancing and I can rule out them being the team

a mislynch furthers your wincon more than a no-lynch, no? so it's not hard to fake frustration. also makes no sense to me why you're taking this particular line - the line that "well as wolf I'm happy with no lynch so there" as a type of defense. rather than "I'm a villager and thought and still think wolf!Ranger so I wanted it to happen"

In a world where I'm wolf and ranger is town, what furthers my win con much more than a ranger day 2 mislynch would be a day 2 no lynch, followed up by a day 3 ranger mislynch. If I'm a wolf, all things considered id prefer for ranger NOT to get lynched, because that means she has a green flip, and as her #1 read, I look bad. Moreover, she gets all of day 3 to push against me as confirmed town. Remember in last game where I said that wolf!you really wouldn't want ranger to be confirmed as town in LYLO? Similar logic applies.

Essentially, The argument I'm making is that my perspective and frustration at EOD was pretty clearly inconsistent with a wolf perspective, unless you think I was faking it. So if you think I'm a wolf, then either I really was frustrated (even though wolf!me ought to be perfectly content with getting a free n2 prime before continuing the ranger push d3), or you think I was faking it. Like, those are the only two options that I can see as at all reasonable w a wolf read on me.

And since we now have a good number of people who ARE reading me as wolf, I want them to commit to opinions and reads on this. I want this before I move on elsewhere.

guess it's just a difference in our perspectives as wolf. I don't ever ever think someone's green flip is going to make me look bad. I'm sometimes (and at some streaky times, you could say: frequently) aggressively wrong as town so why fear aggressively pushing a mislynch as mafia? big weakness of a lot of players who are normally strong-willed and self-assured is turning into a mamby pamby pussy as a wolf because they're afraid of looking bad for a mislynch

[PantherPunt]

in fewer words, I'm not a bitch

[PantherPunt]

First I have to agree with Smith on it being better for him to get a no lynch than a mislynch on ranger.
Second I am going to go back and review the Scumhunting you did in between the unvote and vote and see how I'm feeling than on your alignment

when you doin that

[PantherPunt]

weekends are tough sorry. off tomorrow so probably tuesday before I'm immersed again

to make this post game relevant, I see I have a vote. cute - look forward to talking about that

[PantherPunt]

VOTE: titus

[PantherPunt]

@DGB/Ranger, can you both get along? A wagon with the three of us on it would be awesome.

This sounds like you're reading them both as town. Town reads specific to them, or is it just others have moved higher on the suspect list? I'm especially curious about Ranger; if you're town reading her currently, what changed from D2?

I am.

You changed.

@Ranger, each one of you will only vote one of my two scumreads, which makes it hard to work with the both of you.

Titus/alpaca
Titus/btd6

Don't think it's Titus/xkfy

So everything says lynch Titus

If not Titus then the other common demoninator is smith. I've disliked smith EOD and early today but after looking at some other games I have a hard time believing his scum game has improved/changed this much

[PantherPunt]

this game...

this site actually

[PantherPunt]

No death?

Someone knows something. Please leave hints.

I have surgery tomorrow so I won't be active the next couple of days but don't worry I am not forgetting about you all.

DGB, what's up with your vote on Panther?

Did Panther claim doctor? What's wrong with my vote?

I have a problem with this

[PantherPunt]

No death?

Someone knows something. Please leave hints.

I have surgery tomorrow so I won't be active the next couple of days but don't worry I am not forgetting about you all.

Sorry guys I got confused and thought I'd been NK'd in this game.

DGB, what's up with your vote on Panther?

Did Panther claim doctor? What's wrong with my vote?

especially when this was posted hours ago.

we go from: knows nothing about the setup and has actively projected as much, multiple times
to: knowing the one and only PR in the game

does not compute. feels like feigned derps. want to lynch with impudence

[PantherPunt]

VOTE: drippinggoofball

[PantherPunt]

Sorry guys I got confused and thought I'd been NK'd in this game.

how is this even possibly real? how is it possible to genuinely think you'd been killed without being notified of it or having the mod post it in any fashion

[PantherPunt]

DGB describe to me in a few words what the setup is that we're playing

[PantherPunt]

waiting to lambaste titus until this is answered^

[PantherPunt]

we go from: knows nothing about the setup and has actively projected as much, multiple times
to: knowing the one and only PR in the game

What???????????

And is this an actual doctor claim????????????????????????????

seriously

seriously







seriously

[PantherPunt]

This is stretching and fucking terrible. Doctor is a common PR and not lynched like ever.

So you immediately went to 'he must have jokingly coincidentally named the 1 pr in the game despite portraying cluelessness as to the open setup'

[PantherPunt]

VOTE: titus

[PantherPunt]

It'll keep the game moving

You don't raise any bells for me either way

You're a complete waste on this game. I'll never understand players like you who replace into 20 different games and play none of them.

[PantherPunt]

Fun facts:

- Alpaca was posting on this site sporadically today, chose not to check into this thread AT ALL today
- Panther was on this thread earlier today, and vanished when deadline hit
- Ranger/Xkfyu weren't on site anywhere today (though were Friday).

This is like the super example of what happens when towns stop giving a crap and ignore the thread around deadline. I'd love it if it was exactly a Panther/Alpaca team, because then at least I could say "good job wolves". Doubt that's the pair exactly though.

I just want to point out before I take my last shower in the next two weeks LOL surgeon's orders, that the above post is town and I will suffer no argument to the contrary.

Rangers play on d2 onward has, IMO, unambiguously been focused inward, with substantive discussion focused primarily on herself and relating either directly to defense or to pushing people pushing her (and the day one IV push was, if you recall, also against someone pushing on her). You'll notice, if you care to, a lack of substance behind many if her reads, even when questioned. You'll notice, if you care to, a persistent lack of

I like this

Everything you said about mhsmith^
A town read it would seem

No death?

Someone knows something. Please leave hints.

I have surgery tomorrow so I won't be active the next couple of days but don't worry I am not forgetting about you all.

This new knowledge invalidates this post

And everything I said about mhsmith

NVM

How did that new knowledge invalidate everything you said about mhsmith?

I only have a null read on you

I'm just being a team player

You become aware of the setup and it nullifies your previous town read to the point that you'll put a vote there. Just tell me the thoughts that went through your head when you became aware of the setup and how that related to your read on smith that was then voided.

[PantherPunt]

BTD6_maker May 30, 04:11am Jul 31, 12:31am

3 days 8 hours

111 August 09 2016
AlpacaAlpaca May 30, 08:43pm Jul 29, 09:28pm

4 days 11 hours

62 August 06 2016

So you can just throw up a VLA for the majority of the day phase and not play? why do I keep signing up for games here

[PantherPunt]

@drippinggoofball

1346

[PantherPunt]

Alpaca has posted on this site each of the last 4 days he's been absent here

[PantherPunt]

@drippinggoofball

1346

DrippingGoofball - can you fill me in on the question I ask you in 1346?

request 3 and I'm going to keep asking

[PantherPunt]

My Internet should hopefully be better for now. Hopefully.

Anyway, there are two interesting points, both of which happened in Newbie 1700.

Firstly, outing PR reads is the one thing I should not have done. I am not sure what to make of PantherPunt and DGB. I currently Townread both of them. DGB seems like a very confused Townie at the moment.

Secondly, Doctor is a role that SHOULD never be lynched. However, it happens. Indeed, it happened purely because a Newbie hammered without intent. While I do not support No Lynches, this risk must be balanced against the benefits of lynching. This is just a possibility, but staying off-site when a lynch is imminent and near the deadline could be beneficial to scum as intent would have a lower chance of becoming a hammer due to this risk. Ranger probably presumed someone would give intent. Since this is just a possibility (and Ranger was completely off-site) this is unlikely and thus very weak, but worth bringing up.

Ya what? Why are you talking about n1700...why are you talking about outing PR reads....why are you talking about whether lynching doctors has happened before or not....how does any of that related to you then talking about Ranger being offsite....why do you say things then say it's unlikely and weak

And what do you think DG is confused about?

[PantherPunt]

But they're so complicated and tedious questions LOL

Here's the simple version.

You townread smith.
You learned what the setup is and then that negated your townread on smith.
Why?

[PantherPunt]

I think it's fairly obvious what DGB is getting at. The only question is if she's lying about it.

doesn't make much sense to me

[PantherPunt]

Ranger/you/BTD

the "you" here is smith

what made you change from ranger d2 to smith d3

[PantherPunt]

I did not pick up that DG was softing

who gets a PR in an open and doesn't check the setup. I looked through DG games where she replaced into Opens and she has a record of not reading the setup. never did it occur to me that the "nevermind" on the smith town read was due to her figuring out the dousing thing and that she thought she was a doc who made a save

[PantherPunt]

and I want to lynch Titus the most bc meta on smith but if I can't get the votes I can't get the votes. order of preference is probably Titus, Alpaca, BTD, smith

so 50/50 in there. the only world I've ruled out as w/w is Titus/Smith so it probably makes sense to check if I can rule Alpaca/BTD out as w/w

so that's on my to do list when I can give this game time. have a big interview today and need to prep for it

[PantherPunt]

Smith where are you currently on Ranger

you've been talking about yourself and Titus mostly

[PantherPunt]

Sorry I'm on vacation 6-14th so haven't thought about this game

Would lynch Titus alpaca btd6. Smith only to get a lynch off but two of those are voting smith and Titus is never with smith meaning if smith is a wolf alpaca or btd are bussing him rn which seems odd when ranger appears viable. Can't recall if they boxed themselves out of a ranger vote or not

I'd like it if you'd all just vote titys

[PantherPunt]

@panther: why Titus over alpaca and btd?

I honestly forget at this point. I've been super disconnected and will be for another 6 days

If you're town, I think 2 of those 3 are scum. I'll hammer whoever is viable of the 3

[PantherPunt]

Ranger having 3 votes is a travesty though

Have you read her posts?

Smith- you were just in the same game with her as me. You didn't listen to me there. I've got her down. Her soul belongs to me. She's screaming villager. Idk if it's bc we are similar or what but I find her to be one of the easiest reads among all people I've ever played with

[PantherPunt]

One flip

One flip in 3 months

Amazing

[PantherPunt]

Am still on vacation til Sunday evening

I think ranger and smith are both town

I think Titus is a wolf

I'd say btd but them voting together out of the gate would be ballsy. Doesn't mean it didn't just happen

[PantherPunt]

VOTE: titus

Very curious to see what happens next

[PantherPunt]

VOTE: Ranger

YOLO

[PantherPunt]

It could be the merlot or it could be 3 months with no flip but that L-1 just looked too juicy to let marinate any longer

glgl

[PantherPunt]

Gg I guess. Tell us your buddy or do we get to wait to see if we get lucky tonight somehow?

If it's a miss I'm banking on a save or a lynch on a target

That wasn't a scum hammer that was a this game has been going on for 3 months without a flip and I'm online with an L1

[PantherPunt]

Ya you can publish scum chat

Re: lolcats I really wanted to but just in case dgb binked xkf I wanted to maintain plausibility to survive the next lynch. Should have nutted up it seems

Re: role fishing on dgb. I wasn't lol. I thought dgb was just clueless as all fuck and didn't get the revised read on you immediately. Part of that was thinking alpaca might be ff. You'll see it in scum chat

One of towns biggest mistakes were the people blatantly claiming not firefighter. Though we accidentally binked ff on n1 anyways

Once I get to a computer I'll respond to some other stuff there might have been out there

gg. I started playing on MS in July 2015 and played somewhere in the neighborhood of 15-20 games straight as town. First scum game here

[PantherPunt]

Oh and I have to say kappy played really well and that was a huge help. Twilight posting d1 was sickeningly good imo

[PantherPunt]

1.) No submission

lololololololololol

not that it mattered bc we primed that slot. but gosh

[PantherPunt]

Panther usually has more drive/aggression as town.

this is true. I could have imitated that more, but I just didn't need to. I was being townread left and right at minimal effort and that effort level fit in with the rest of the apathetic thread so it didn't look abnormal...just looked like it was 'one of those games'

also, I'll reiterate it was made easier by kappy goating in twlight

[PantherPunt]

I'm really conflicted on this game. it was supposed to be a pilot of the setup but i don't think that we got anything particularly useful regarding the setup because of the lack of lynches or "normal" day progression removing a suspect a day.

it's a good set up

I played out a lot of the potential scenarios in scum chat at one point one post

so I like the amount of ambiguity faced by scum. some games are bad simply bc scum have 0 to little ambiguity surrounding roles and night actions whereas town is in the dark

It'd be even more interesting as a 10v3 13er imo. but that's slightly more townsided I think? just based on there being more correct primes needed to win and more lynches that could potentially kill an already primed player

obviously scum's best EV is to only have to ignite once rather than twice. haven't played with the math on a 13er but I might just run it for fun over in my stomping grounds

[PantherPunt]

1.) No submission

lololololololololol

not that it mattered bc we primed that slot. but gosh

Basically my reaction exactly. Did shotty even pick up his role pm?

Shotty was well aware of his role.

Fwiw I think the role should be revised to be compulsive

I.e. If they don't submit, their target is randed

Bc I can't think of any instance where it's pro town to not act on someone. And therefore not using the action is anti-wincon

I don't always think actions should be compulsive. But if you're the only town PR and an integral part of the setup, holstering is downright bad and a wee bit game throwing imo