Mafia 73: NEGWLTWWWTKY - Abandoned!

[Toaster Strudel]

vote:Neo-Viper9

'cuz I never heard of him and I'd like to how he reacts.

[Toaster Strudel]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]Hey, we need a BM-wagon...[/quote]
No we don't. I'll tell you what we really need.

unvote, vote: KaleiÐoscøpep

[Toaster Strudel]

Kaleidopoop?

You make a very strong case. Did you forget to vote?

[Toaster Strudel]

true story. And peers, if you no that your overly defensive and it gets you lynched than why do it? Sounds like a cop out. Prolly just bad scum.

You're in the mood to bus your bud, hey? I am going to help you.

vote: Peers

[Toaster Strudel]

Unvote: Battle Mage

Erg0, any reasoning behind your vote for me?

Nervous, are we?

[Toaster Strudel]

Umm, no. Just woundering why he voted the way he did.

Why the panic? To me it looks like nothing more than a random Day 1 vote. I'll leave it to Erg0 to confirm or deny.

You've haven't exactly made controversial posts, and he's put one unexplained vote on you early day 1, when you probably didn't even have any other vote (I am too lazy to check).

To ask him why he voted for you, under these circumstances, looks like panic to me. Am I wrong?

Mod Edit: tags fixed at TS' request

[Toaster Strudel]

I was going to post this earlier today, but I held off, as I was curious to see how this Sikario wagon was going to play out.

So, Sikario is a selective flaker. In my experience (your experience may vary) I have noticed that flakers are very often scum caught early. They sign up for a game of fooling everybody for months, and they get caught in the first week. Disgusted or disappointed with their own performance, they flake. Or they half-play, or sorta give up, that kind of unsportsman-like behavior. So my guess is that if Sikario has stuck to this game, it's probably because he's enjoying it more than the other games, i.e., he's not prematurely caught scum.

So I am starting out with this premise in my mind, which is nothing more than some experienced-based psychological insight, and my first hunch is that Skikario is more likely town than scum at this point.

This is where Peer's reaction becomes interesting to me. It's interesting because, as others such as Yosarian have pointed out, Peers is "more worried about how his vote makes him look" than looking for scum. I would go as far as to say that Peer's is setting himself up to look good because he knows Sikario is a mislynch.

Vote stays.

[Toaster Strudel]

Peers - who are your top three candidates for today's lynch. Please give details.

[Toaster Strudel]

@Quagmire - not sure if you don't understand what I'm saying, or whether you are disagreeing.

Vote: JordanA24

Reason: He's had four posts so far, two of them were votes with no other content. He has not explained his reasons for his current vote, which started a bandwagon on that player, and has tried to spin an apology the person he voted for made as 'backtracking', which feels like trying to retroactively justify his vote.

My other two of the 'requested list'...

Panzerjager, for the following, which feels like he's bandwagoning for the sake of bandwagoning, or trying to convince those who're voting otherwise to pick one of us:

So, are we lynching hasd or peers?

And #2, Sikario, which is more due to all the arguing about him than anything else giving much more to think about. I've seen plenty of town mislynches, especially day one, and they all seem to follow the same patterns as today, but I haven't played with a lot of this game before -- they could work differently as a town and be seeing something I don't.

Pretty weak reasoning, but hey, it's Day 1. Nonetheless.

Peers' top 3 suspects:

Jordan, Panzer, and Sikario

.

Interesting choices. I'll begin with Sikario, because your posts suggest that you are predicting a mislyinch of Sikario. Examples: "I'd have to vote for Sikario8 out of self-defense, and that's a horrible reason to vote for someone" and "There's nothing on that BW to make me think he's scum; unless someone comes up with something, the only reason I'd vote for him is to save my own skin." and "I continue to believe that Sikario is town, and will continue to believe so..." and now, he's on your top 3 suspect list, after I pointed out that you look like you are setting youself up to look good in what you appear to know might be a mislynch.

Because your reasoning was so weak re: Jordan and Panzer, I am going to guess that you had unusual reasons for picking these two. Like throwing us off if you turn up scum; I bet one is scum, and one is town. Scum wouldn't distance from two buddies at once, that's a little too much, but one is just right.

It boils down to this, since your top 3 suspect are not supported by credible insight or analysis. (1) Sikario you picked because maybe I hit the nail on the head when I said you were setting yourself up to look good after a mislynch. (2) You picked Jordan and Panzer to spread your suspicion between a townie and a scumbuddy.

[Toaster Strudel]

oh and

Unvote, Vote: ABR

Bandwagonning and setting up future-lynches?

It's Day 1. If he didn't do that, would you brand him a lurker?

ABR has given properly thought out reasons to vote for Peers, as have others. BM, please explain while you think the Peers wagon should be derailed, and an ABR wagon started.

[Toaster Strudel]

[...]in order to protect someone you know is -100%- town?

Oh good grief. Doesn't anybody know how to play this game anymore?

unvote

[Toaster Strudel]

Peers was referring to himself. Why did you unvote him ?

Awwwww... I thought he was referring to Sikario... so I thought he was breadcrumbing cop.

Guess not!

vote: Peers

[Toaster Strudel]

Unvote, Vote: Toaster Strudel

Metagame policy to lynch TS in every game until I see some useful posts instead of random ranting that doesn't even contain logic.

Any player that reads the above post ought to selectively read MoS's posts in this game, and compare to mine.

I guarantee you're going to laugh.

Just to make it easier, let me post the ENTIRETY of MoS's contribution to this game (7 tiny, meaningless posts):

Original Roll String: 1d19 (STATIC)

1 19-Sided Dice: (8) = 8

Vote: Zu_Faul

Your expecting me to react to a vote in the random voting stage?

You just did.

Congrats schizy =P

Kaleidopoop?

Hi.

Unvote, Vote: Toaster Strudel

Metagame policy to lynch TS in every game until I see some useful posts instead of random ranting that doesn't even contain logic.

MoS's lack of reading the game (if he read the game he would not have dismissed my contribution so lackadaisically), combined with his own near complete lack of participation, and sudden attempt to distract from the Peers wagon leads me to believe that we might be on to something with the Peers wagon.

Also, my theory that either Jordan or Panzer may be scum with Peers, *might* be correct - and *if* it is correct, there is a strong probability that MoS would be another buddy.

[Toaster Strudel]

Just to offer one more conspiracy theory and some meta-gaming...

MoS might be really angry that I cracked his whole scum team so early in the game!

And really angry that Peers screwed up, maybe, too! Maybe Peers really did give out his scumbuddy Jordan/Panzer on a silver platter It's not impossible you know. It won't be the first time I've seen scum caught early.

Any reasonable player will wonder the

real reason

why MoS has kept so uncharacteristically silent in this game (that's the meta-gaming bit), and is now so-oo-oo-o-o cross. And why so cross with me, when there are plenty of other players that have contributed little, like, say, himself? Why me? Let every player answer this question for himself, and come to their own conclusion.

(Peers / MoS) or (Jordan / Panzer) = good lynches for today.

[Toaster Strudel]

Peers isn't scum. Peers is very much not scum.

You're at lynch -3.

[Toaster Strudel]

MoS is absolutely right.

My, the cattle is practically herding itself to the slaughterhouse! Don't miss tomorrow's BBQ, we're serving juicy Vig Meat burgers.

[Toaster Strudel]

Peers isn't scum. Peers is very much not scum.

You're at lynch -3.

EBWOP: That would be -2, I missed schiz's vote at the top of the page.

[Toaster Strudel]

Your comments 'we are only page 8, there can't be anything serious yet', your blatant avoidance of town suspects, constant lurking and lack of contribution to the early game discussion is anti-town.

Objectively, MoS's most recent posts, though considerably wordier than his earlier collection of posts of less than 5 words, one can easily conclude that he continues to contribute nothing but sticks in the town's wheels disguised as some bizarre agenda/personal vendetta/policy lynch. His posts are nothing more than trash, content-wise, hollow post count boosters, giving the impression of participation.

Who is useless, and sucking the fun out of the game? If that is the criteria for a policy lynch, MoS would have be lynched quite thoroughly already.

[Toaster Strudel]

I... don't really get it. MoS's stance on TS is surprising to me as I haven't seen it from him before, even in a game (ongoing) that we were all in recently.

I am only guessing myself, but I do think it has to do with some ongoing game, and no more should be said about it.

[Toaster Strudel]

For everyone's information, Quagmire has decided to copy MoS's game-ruining "policy lynch" me strategy. I am very disappointed that people sign up to pursue silly personal agendas rather than play the game. A serious downside of that kind of behavior is that it becomes impossible to gauge the player's alignment (Quag & MoS) because they are, quite sadly, not playing the game at all.

[Toaster Strudel]

Unfortunately Toaster Strudel I'm voting for you because of how mafia you are.

And just this afternoon, it dawned on you that I am mafia in every game we're in?

What you seem to forget is that you and your mentor are ruining the game for everybody.

Poke all you want, I will not destroy other players' enjoyment by engaging in petty feuds, OMGUS votes, or exchange in battles of insults with either of you.

I am here to play the game and have fun.

mod: A votecount would be a nice way to put us back on track

[Toaster Strudel]

Looking at who's voting for who...

Peers

is stalled at lynch-2 with MoS and Quag coming in with an off-wagon, distraction vote. To metagame MoS here, his vote looks independent of any in-game considerations. Quag's vote, however, has no bone to pick with me (I am sure of that, I have rarely played with him), so it's much more suspicious, maybe hiding behind a veil of support for a friend.

hasdgfas

' reason to vote Peers seems genuine.

ABR and BM

are voting/distracting each other. Would be nice if they expanded their horizon of suspicion to include other players.

Sikario8

hasn't posted since Nov 16. Immature play and reactions, not sure if scummy.

Yosarian2

is voting for Sikario for pretty weak reasons: "Sikario8's lurking, followed by a "I'm alive and reading" post, was scummy. His hasdgfas vote also seemed a bit odd. And when I voted for him because of that, he fos'd me for voting him? Not helping." Yosarian2 is far more aggressive with Peers; however, he keeps his vote on Sikario! Hmmmm. Then a few non-content posts.

Not sure why

Elmo

is still voting Sikario8 as opposed to other players that have come into the scene. Maybe he has a reason to prefer to keep his vote there.

I looked at

Kscope'

s contribution. Is he always so brash and contentless?

Jordan

appears very focused trying to find scum. Peers' vote for Jordan may be a bit OMGUS, or it's damning for Peers.

Erg0

- also well-focused good judgment.

Mert

is bizarre. Anyone cares to metagame Mert? Please take a look at his posts. " Early on I'll wagon people and do occasionally odd things to get reactions and then as Day One moves on I'll suddenly start smacking people with huge analyses of those reactions I got at the beginning." That was Nov. 11. Where are the huge analyses?

Panzer:

voted for Peers without reasoning - then unvoted and voted hasdgfas. Lots of contentless posts. Alternating between being very decisive and then flip-flopping.

Schismatized

: here but not really contributing. Either contentless, or looks like pushing people's buttons without committing. Not sure if that's normal for him.

zu_Faul

: very much keeping himself under the radar, lurking-in-plain sight vote.

8: Peers (JordanA24, hasdgfas, Mert, Erg0, Panzerjager, TS, schismatized, Zu_Faul)
5: Sikario8 (Neo-Viper9, Yosarian Sir Tornado, Elmo, Kscope, )
2: Toaster Strudel (MoS, Quagmire)
1: JordanA24 (Peers)
1: ABR (Battle Mage)
1: Battle Mage (ABR)

vote Sikario8

That's SirTornado only contribution. Dated Nov 12.

mod: prod or replace Sir Tornado

mod: prod or replace Sikario8

[Toaster Strudel]

Sikario8 has been active in other games this morning. Is he deliberately ignoring this one?

[Toaster Strudel]

Clues are too iffy. What if we don't find them? What if we think we found some, rely on those, when in fact there aren't any? What if there are some, and we misinterpret them?

I want Shanba's results.

[Toaster Strudel]

^^^^
Never mind the above post, it belongs to another game. Sorry.

[Toaster Strudel]

I've hardly been pushing the lynch vehemently. I made my vote, people questioned it, and I explained myself. There was nothing vehement about it.

You're just throwing around smoke and flames, Jordan.

Unvote, Vote: Jordan

So, um...why, exactally, are you voting for him?

For throwing around smoke and flames. It seems like Jordan is just trying to kick up dust and cast suspicion on people, supporting whichever wagons seem the easiest to push.

Again I recomment that everyone take a look at Jordan's posts in isolation. Is Jordan throwing around smoke and flames? No. Is he kicking supporting whichever wagon is easiest to push??? Absolutely not. As far as I can see, Jordan'ts only sin is to find MoS suspicious, and voting for MoS.

I strongly recommend that players take a look at Jordan's contribution, and come to their own conclusion as to whether MoS's accusations have any truth to them.

[Toaster Strudel]

Sikario8 has been active in other games this morning. Is he deliberately ignoring this one?

Today too, Sikario8 continues to post in other games and ignore this one. I hope there is a good explanation.

[Toaster Strudel]

...however, with recent happenings and a death in teh fucking family, I've FORGOTTEN WHY.

That's reason enough. I am sorry. I had no idea. I hope you have a sound support system, and people that can lean on each other in times of need. Take care.

[Toaster Strudel]

Again I recomment that everyone take a look at Jordan's posts in isolation. Is Jordan throwing around smoke and flames? No. Is he kicking supporting whichever wagon is easiest to push??? Absolutely not. As far as I can see, Jordan'ts only sin is to find MoS suspicious, and voting for MoS.

I strongly disagree. I would politely suggest your reaction to MoS may be influencing your view of Jordan's actions.

It might - but do you see "smoke and flames?" If so, where? I must have missed something. I'd like to see the throwing of smokes and flames.

As for "whichever wagon" - doesn't that imply more than one wagon? MoS might have said "Jordan picked THE easiest wagon" but whichever wagon means multiple wagons to me. If there is one easy wagon on Day 1, that's one thing; multiple wagons is quite another. Do you think Jordan was pushing one easy wagon, or a series of multiple easy wagons?

[Toaster Strudel]

I do not necessarily entirely agree with MoS. I am simply saying I found Jordan scummy (152, 301) before MoS even mentioned him.

OK - that's valid.

[Toaster Strudel]

Peers: looks like your strategy worked.

Strategy? What strat... erm, I mean... of course it did, it was brilliantly conceived, planned, and executed by myself, so naturally it worked... uh... pssst, what exactly did I do, again?

That would be the one where you stopped reacting to things and waited it out until people got bored with your wagon.

Never claimed, either. Peers is a clever one.

[Toaster Strudel]

@Sikario8 - homework for you!

"Peers has been in the spotlight for some time and, if she were to defend him, wouldn't TS be put on the spot as well?" Problem with that is that I can't find where I allegedly defended Peers. Did you confuse me with another player? Are you making assumptions regarding Peers' alignment? If you are, please state clearly what assumptions you are making. Is Peers town or scum?

Then you wrote: "way back then, they had their votes equally distributed" - Please list every single player whose votes were equally distributed.

Then you wrote: "..however, with the recent turn of attention to Peers, they’ve jumped on his [...] caboose to avoid easy detection." Please name every single player that has hopped onto that wagon AND explain how it helps each one avoid easy detection.

Then you wrote: "Maybe Jordan’s on a different level cuz he’s still voting Peers when Peers has his vote on hasd." Please explain what you mean by "different level" and the significance of Jordan voting Peers while Peers is voting for hasd.

I found your post very intriguing, and thank you in advance for the clarifications.

[Toaster Strudel]

No desert for you tonight, punk! Get back here.

[Toaster Strudel]

Forgive me if this sounds a bit off the wall; however, I've been stricken as of late by the queer feeling that Peers and TS could be distancing. I don't know what to think of this; however, I just want to put it out there to be either shot down or exonerated.

.... What?

No, wait... What?

So, since we voted for different people before, and now she's voting for me while I unvote for someone because he made a point that my reasons for voting him are no longer valid, that means we're distancing?

... ow, my brain...

Sikario8 must be light years ahead of us. Like an extra-terrestrial.

But don't worry he's going to explain it. It'll be fun. I have high hopes.

[Toaster Strudel]

I say somebody comes up with a clear argument that presents the case against MOS so then he can reply to it.

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 993#839993
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 731#854731

He is acting odd, but so are many the people conveniently slipping in on his wagon.

There will be many people to conveniently slip on

ANY

wagon. That doesn't make an MoS wagon any less worthy.

[Toaster Strudel]

Jordan's case against MoS has more merit that MoS's case against Jordan.

Jordan: leaning town.
MoS: leaning scum.

[Toaster Strudel]

Do I really have to spell this out for you again? How thick are you?

Intimidating players that make good cases against you is scummy.

4th vote is jumping on a wagon, which is what I accused you of. So how does you being the fourth vote shoot my theory out of the water again?

It does. Especially on Day 1 where we're basically sending out feelers.

vote: MoS

[Toaster Strudel]

I think Quag is scum

Me too. But Quag not worth arguing with. Quag is at the top of the list of any vig worth his salt.

I can see a TS/Jordan scum team.

Wrong. You have to see where I'm coming from. I have MoS trying to intimidate me in every game. And one of the things that irks me is that he is so cranky and disagreeable that and a lot of players allow him to browbeat other players with nonsense. Only a few of the more experienced players will stand up to him, as Yosarian2 has in this game.

Now I see him doing the same thing with Jordan. MoS's arguments are complete rubbish, and for the most part blatantly incorrect.

So I decided to not let him get away with attacking players personally, calling them "retard" or "thick," especially in this case where Jordan has a clearly more valid case, better stated, and a more courteous demeanor than MoS. Plus, on an emotional level, my heart goes out to the kid. I know and feel what he's up against.

Have fun metagaming my Toaster and my Goofball games. In each one you will see varying displays of exasperation with MoS.

I frankly don't care what it looks like. I don't care if it looks like I'm buddies with whomever I'm defending. I don't give a rat's tutu if it means I'm lynched. It's just a game. What means a great deal more to me is that I will have been lynched

doing the right thing

- that is, spreading some good karma. Jordan is a good kid, his case is a good one, and I will support him. Que sera, sera.

I'll defend anyone worth defending, and I'll only let MoS get away with the intelligent arguments I know he's capable of making.

[Toaster Strudel]

I thought Quag would be best handled by a vig (he needs to be killed, but it's not an informative kill, regardless of his alignment, so vig is best), but if there is a will to lynch him, I'm all for it.

Not to mention how I've seen him pull this trick before and he was scum.

unvote, vote: Quagmire

[Toaster Strudel]

I still prefer my MOSvote.

And still prefer my MoS vote, too. But I did switch to Quag. As soon as Quag reads his role PM, vote goes back to MoS - unless I'm really dissatisfied with Quag's actions.

[Toaster Strudel]

He's an idiot, what makes you think he can find scum ?

I'm laughing so hard, my belly is sore.

@ hasdgfas - What ABR says is absolutely true. Quag isn't gonna help zero in on scum, whether or not he read his PM. He's just dead weight, one more player for the rest of us to worry about.

Besides... he's done EXACTLY what he is doing in this game, in another game - and he was scum.

ABR I'm still laughing.

[Toaster Strudel]

I feel as if Quag should take mafia lessons from BM lol

You're trying to kill me...

Ooops!

[Toaster Strudel]

This gives us an advantage because he's playing as a townie.

He is not playing as a townie, he is playing as Quagmire, that is, he is completely useless.

Are you even paying attention, hasdgfas? He's pulled that "I didn't read my role PM" in another game, and he was scum. When Quagmire does that, it becomes a scumtell.

Who doesn't read their role PM with much anticipation? It doesn't make any sense, it's not believable, and, I'll say it again, he does that as scum.

[...]we can lynch him then, but right now, he's on our side, no matter what his role PM says.

He is not on our side at all. What he does cannot possibly be construed as scumhunting. He just finds players he doesn't like, and votes them.

[Toaster Strudel]

That's not it...

You're at L-1.

You also have to claim.

How else are we going to know whether it's BS?

[Toaster Strudel]

I agree with Erg0 re: Peers. I'm not happy that Peers got away without claiming. He just covered himself in Astroglide and got away.

I won't be happy if Quag is allowed to continue without claiming, too.

[Toaster Strudel]

Teflon, not Astroglide.

Liar. You smell like Astroglide and Axe deodorant.

And like Erg0 said... it's him, hsfalalala, and two lurkers. And judging from the most recent bandwagon... we now have president for people to not bother claiming today, since we didn't force a claim here... just a "No, I read it, I swear".

Precedent, not president, haha.

So Peers. You agree with that? You think it's good for the game to let people get away without a claim? What do you think of the people that backed off Quagmire after the "I read it I swear" declaration? Two hundred words minimum. Be prepared for a follow up question.

[Toaster Strudel]

I'm not going to claim anytime soon. This conversation is worthless. Stop trying to "lead discussion" somewhere, because it's not going to go anywhere.

I didn't ask you anything. I asked Peers. Let him answer.

[Toaster Strudel]

Yeah, but...this discussion has no point. There is no relevancy. It's totally useless.

I didn't ask for your opinion.

[Toaster Strudel]

Does anyone need prods?

Yes, please!

Zu_Faul, Sir Tornado (replace?), Neo-Viper9, Mert

[Toaster Strudel]

Do you really think he's scum who lied about not reading his role PM and then lied about reading it?

I don't give a rat's tutu about Quagmire. I want Peers to talk. Do you mind???

[Toaster Strudel]

I don't find TS particularly scummy, and I think she's only been brought under the spotlight by MoS and Quagmire's policy crap. She also has a similar opinion of Peers to mine. Hence, I am unlikely to lynch her even (especially) in her absence.

This has all the hallmarks of a classic Day 1 "we're bored, let's lynch a lurker" wagon. Get TS replaced if you must, don't lynch her just to make the decision easier.

I'm not voting TS based on policy.

Have I neglected to ask for replacement in this game, or do we have a slow mod?

MoS, you win, I lose. You and Quagmire have been successful, at last, at removing any enjoyment I had playing this game, by taking the game out of it. I have better things to do than lock swords with children, no disrespect meant to childhood in general. It's unbecoming to a woman my age.

I hope you find this game much more fun and lively now that I am gone, and have stopped sucking the fun out of it, which is the reason why you have embarked in this tiresome policy lynch business that you deny, but continue to carry out - even after I've been replaced.

I am finishing a couple of minis and a normal (as DGB) to honor cross-replacement deals that I have made. And I'll finish modding Food Fight Mafia, and maybe I'll even mod another similar game since it's being wildly enjoyed by the players.

I am done with the playing.

Don't answer in this thread, at least don't answer for my benefit, because I'm not going to reply.

[Toaster Strudel]

Here's another contribution that is going to suck the fun out of the game and that no one will appreciate, especially Yosarian2.

Yosarian2 a.k.a. "The Wagon Derailing Machine"

Defends BM, argues with Panzer

Post #0 - Rails against Panzer for voting BM
Post #1 - Rails against Panzer for voting BM some more, feels strongly about votes against BM being really scummy.
Post #2 - Rails against Panzer for voting BM some more, vehemently protects BM concerning a really big scary page 1 vote.
Post #3 - Absurd argument with Peers over the worth of random vs. non-random page 1 votes.
Post #4 - Votes

Neo-Viper

on account of his vote against BM being even scummier than Panzer's, defends the "easy lynch" BM.

Switched off arguing with Panzer, defends hasdfas

This post is a kicker. So I am giving you all the link so that you can see for yourselves:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 765#830765
Post #6 - Suddenly likes Panzer. Extracts two posts from hasdfas. Quote #1: "As he well knows, I like reasons behind votes" Quote #2: "ok. this bandwagon seems to have more behind it than the BM one. unvote, vote:peers"
Why is this post especially interesting? That's because he voted Neo-Viper for far sillier reasons. hasdfas, however, who has sinned twice as much as Neo-Viper, is not vote-worthy. Why not?
Here's more bizarre stuff:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 300#832300
Post #7 - This is followed by a vote on Sikario8, without explanations. Remember how Yosarian2 berated players that did not give explanations earlier in the game and even voted for them.
Post #8 - Here Yosarian2 explains why he's voting Sikario8. Pay attention:
"Sikario8's lurking, followed by a "I'm alive and reading" post, was scummy.

His hasdgfas vote also seemed a bit odd.

And when I voted for him because of that, he fos'd me for voting him? Not helping."

Attacks MoS but not too much

Post #20 - "Anyway, I move that we just keep piling votes on MOS until he starts making sense." Not lynch; just pile votes.
Post #23 - Interrupts MoS wagon in favor of a Quagmire wagon. Not lynch; just for him to read his role PM.

Starts Quagmire wagon but derails it last minute without demanding a claim as proof of reading the PM

Attacks MoS

Post #25 - Unvotes Quagmire for fear of (argh!) a Quagmire hammer.
Post #26 - Back to voting MoS as promised.
Post #27 - When Yosarian2 is asked to explain why he unvoted Quagmire on his word that he read him PM, he answers: "He could very well be scum, the whole thing could have been a scum gambit or he might have just discovered that he was scum, but eh, now that we've shut down the whole "I didn't read my PM" thing,

I think MOS is scummier looking.

"

Attacks TS for voting Quag; defends Quag

Post #27 - Players voting for Quag are looking for "easy lynch."
Post #28 - Defends Quag, punctuated with smiley emoticons.
Post #29 - Strongly defends Quag against Sikario8 argument.
Post #30 - Yosarian's scumlist: 1. Toaster Strudel (for voting Quag) 2. Mastermind of Sin (to keep with his earlier promise)
3. Sikario8 (for voting Quag).
Post #34 - Very worried about TS: "Might as well just lynch her now, rather then make the mod replace her so we can lynch the replacement."

Defends ABR

Post #30 - "Well, you know, the case on ABR really dosn't have any substance."

Suddenly switches gear and defends MoS

Post #35 - "MOS's TS vote actually makes perfect sense, she really did look quite scummy." and: "that you're scum

hoping to get a mislynch

based on emotion" - isn't this strange given that Yosarian2 has been calling MoS "scum" all along and MoS is #2 on this scumlist?

IN SUMMARY

(1) Yosarian defends a lot of players.

In my experience

, this is something that scum tends to do to gain credibility later in the game, and also "to mix things up" with false leads.
(2) Yosarian tends to derail a lot of wagons, to slow them down, and to switch allegiance.
(3) Yosarian has come down hard on MoS early on, but now attacks players that vote for MoS (who Yosarian claims to think is scum), and calls these players scum.
(4) Yosarian has come down on Quag, but has saved him from the hammer, on the flimsiest of pretenses.

I'm giving the information.

Draw your own conclusions.

[Toaster Strudel]

I'm giving the information.

Draw your own conclusions.

....

Can't wait to read the rebuttal on this one.

Me too - There's a lot of monkeying around in Yos's contribution that I can't explain myself. He deserves scrutiny.

[Toaster Strudel]

(2) Yosarian tends to derail a lot of wagons, to slow them down, and to switch allegiance.

This is actually a good thing, now isn't it ? Shows he wants the day to go on longer and isn't afraid to lose credibility by changing his mind.

That's one way to interpret it. There are more cynical interpretations, especially if he's derailing every wagon, know what I mean? The only time he pushes, it's for pressure, and he states this explicitly. He's adamant about not pushing for a lynch. To do it to that extent, and that consistently, is weird. Is it scummy? Is it pro-town? You be the judge.

(4) Yosarian has come down on Quag, but has saved him from the hammer, on the flimsiest of pretenses.

Actually he did exactly what he said he would. I don't agree with his unvote, in fact I think its stupid to do so, however I can't say its particularly scummy to not push for a claim.

I know that Yosarian said he would do that. But why did he promise this in the first place? Give it some thought.

Once you come that far on a wagon, and a player needs so much pressure to make a post that claims he read his role PM, isn't it important that this player prove his honesty by claiming?

You have to believe that Quag actually didn't read his PM in the first place; then you have to believe he read it when he said he did.

I'm not willing to take this kind of guff from a player - unless he's my scumbuddy and I really need him to read his PM (haha!), or unless I'm scum and I know he's town and I want to be credited for saving his skin later... but hey... I reckon there's more than one explanation for Yosarian's behavior in this game.

I did spend over a hour preparing that post, and if you too take the time to look at the details, there's a great deal in Yosarian's contribution that is, a minimum, unsettling.

[Toaster Strudel]

Analyzing:
hasdfas a.k.a. "God forbid we should lynch Quagmire"

Special love for MoS

Post #0 - semi-random vote: Mastermind of Sin. What's that all about?
Post #1 - Wimpy rebuttal after being attacked for a "semi-random" vote. What's that all about?
Post #11 - http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 349#834349 - what's that all about?
Post #17 - http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 485#853485 - pays special attention to MoS, asking him reasons for voting Jordan. What's that all about?

Contradicts himself

Post #3 - berates votes unsupported by reasons.
Post #4 - votes Peers unsupported by reasons.
Post #5 - is sad that Jordan, schis, and ABR aren't berated for voting without reason.
Post #6 - defends himself against the players that noticed his contradictions.

Admits to a complete lack of independent thinking

Post #8 - admits his reasons for voting Peers are exactly the same as other players.
Post #10 - repeats his reason are exactly the same as other players, saying "See: everyone's posts about him."

Meekly defends Sikario8

Post #12 - "leaning town on Sikario."
Post #13 - keeps up pressure on the main Peers wagon, away from Sikario8.

Defends Quagmire early on, in the middle, and at the end of the wagon

Even defends people that aren't voting Quag!!!

Votes players that (ack!) suggest we should lynch Quag!!!

Does not even question that Quagmire may be lying about it

Post #20 - Not reading role PM isn't anti-town, because the Day 1 lynch is random.
Post #21 - Thinks it's really pro-town not to read your PM,

especially if Quagmire is scum.

Post #22 - Maintains, against common sense, that Quag not reading his PM is really pro-town.
Post #23 - "just because someone [...] doesn't want to lynch Quag doesn't make them scum."
Post #23 - Quag not reading his role PM is

really great!!!

Post #24 - Attacks AND FOS's Sikario8 for going as far as saying we should

actually lynch

Quag.
Post #30 - Demands more pressure be put on Peers, a nice old wagon he might be able to revive.

Strudel must be done away with

Post #34 - "TS doesn't seem to be here to defend herself. We can make the mod's job a lot easier if we lynch someone that scummy today."
WOW. I'm surprised that post didn't jump at people.
Post #13 - keeps up pressure on the main Peers wagon, away from Sikario8.

Directs the vig

Post #34 - towards Peers. Why?

Because, hasdfas says:
Let's VIG Peers is still here to

defend himself

.
Let's LYNCH TS, who is

not here to defend herself

.

IN SUMMARY

(1) I don't know what's going on with the defense, then fleeting accusations against Sikario8. Maybe some other player can try to interpret this?
(3) That special attention hasdfas pays MoS...
(2) Just like Yosarian, defends Quagmire.
(4) Just like Yosarian, wants to get rid of me - does not state his own reasons as usual; relies on other people's.
(5) Dear players, please ask yourself what agenda hasdfas might have, that he'd want to lynch the person that can't defend herself, and vig the person that can. Please please please ask yourselves.

Another hour, another long long long post... just me sucking the fun out of the game as usual. I just make games stagnate and lose their focus. I apologize!

[Toaster Strudel]

I still want him to claim, but at least I understand the other side's arguments. Do you ?

I do; but I find the other's side's argument less convincing than those that require a claim.

Their argument is based on taking Quag's arguments on face value. I don't know about you; but I find it very difficult to trust a player that pulls the kind of antic Quagmire pulled.

There's only one thing that nearly everyone is going to agree on regarding Quag's play. Someway, somehow, he's jerking us around.

(1) Did he really not read his role PM?
(2) What is his agenda in claiming he didn't read it, scum, or town agenda? Why did he reveal that he didn't read the PM?
(3) Did he really read his role PM when he said he did?

That's jerking us around, not matter how you look at it, no matter whether he read his bloody role PM or when. Why did he do this? And is it pro-town?

[Toaster Strudel]

[Yosarian] isn't pushing for a claim either. Which means he pushes wagons to see if players change their playstyle under pressure. This is pro-town.

You are assuming that is his intent. Can you think of any other intent that Yosarian might have, that may be anti-town?

Because he didn't want Quag to fall back on the argument that all his posts on Day1 are not scummy because he didn't read his role pm. Once he reads his role pm, he can then be viewed as scummy.

Yes. That is what Yosarian is saying. but the real question is,

why is Yosarian so willing to believe Quagmire?

Meh - I dunno why. It just seems odd.

The argument that I put forth was that we should lynch Quag regardless, because every post prior to reading his role pm cannot be viewed as scummy, and he has wasted our time with his unusual, fun-breaking tactic.

That is only the tip of the iceberg of an argument that can be made in favor of lynching Quagmire.

You are assuming Quagmire really didn't read his role PM. Why? Maybe he did read it, and he wants us to think he didn't. Jerking us around. Causing un-necessary wifoms, and whatnot.

What reason do you have to believe he did read his role PM? Maybe he still didn't. Maybe he'd read it before.

But the clincher is...

The moment he declared he didn't read his role PM, he was jerking us around.

Why? To what end? How is this pro-town?

[Toaster Strudel]

If he goes back on his word then we lynch him, plain and simple.

Question: how are you ever going to know?

The only thing I know is that he jerked us around.

[Toaster Strudel]

Let me answer your shorter post first.

We are under the assumption that he read it until he claims otherwise. If he claims otherwise we lynch him.

Why would he now claim otherwise? This part of the argument is moot, since there is no chance in hell that he's going to go back on this.

If he doesn't claim otherwise but didn't read it, he isn't under the protection of his silly gambit.

I don't think you understand what I've been trying to say.

What is the gambit here? Really. What is it? Think for an instant about the true nature of his gambit.

(1) He declares he hasn't read his role PM.
If he DID read the PM, he wants us to believe that he didn't. Why? If he did read the PM, and he's saying he didn't, that means he HAS TO BE SCUM.

(2) If he didn't read the PM, then he's starting the day out to screw the town, in order *not appear like scum, if he's scum* - get it? Regardless of alignment. It benefits him ONLY if he's scum. Not if he's town. But chances are, when you pick up your role PM, that you're a townie, statistically speaking. Why does he want to start off helping himself more if he's scum, than if he's town, since he's more likely town? It's not helping him at all if he's town. So if he's really not reading his role PM when he is starting a game, then overall, it goes against his own success as a player, and therefore, it is not a rational strategy...

Why did he say he didn't read it? Motive?

I personally believe, if Quagmire is at all acting intelligently and rationally, that he

more likely read his role PM than not.

And besides... the other game where he made that announcement... he was scum.

[Toaster Strudel]

[Yosarian] isn't pushing for a claim either. Which means he pushes wagons to see if players change their playstyle under pressure. This is pro-town.

You are assuming that is his intent. Can you think of any other intent that Yosarian might have, that may be anti-town?

I'm out of ideas here...you've been mysteriously hinting at something for a while now, it would be a good idea to state your interpretations for pushing wagons for pressure.

There can be many other interpretations.

(1) He may be trying not to compromise himself on townie lynches.
(2) He may be trying to derail overheated scumbuddy wagons.
(3) He may be setting up a trail of players he defends, and players he attacks, to send us on false leads later if he dies and we find out he's scum.

Honestly, I don't know which it is. But I am alerted by his reluctance to lynch some players, defend others, and

especially

his attacking of MoS's attackers, after he himself stated that he found MoS scummy.

Do you have an explanation for the MoS bit, Albert?

Yes. That is what Yosarian is saying. but the real question is,

why is Yosarian so willing to believe Quagmire?

Meh - I dunno why. It just seems odd.

Because we have nothing to lose. Either we are under the assumption that everyone read their role pm including Quagmire, or we policy lynch someone that claims that they didn't. Quagmire now falls under the first category.[/quote]I am not as willing as you are to jump to this conclusion that we have nothing to lose, since we allowed him to jerk us around all day, and without him claiming, we have no way of knowing which way he's been jerking us around.

And so we bandwagonned him until he claimed to have read it.

But did he then? Had he before? And did he really? We don't know. He's still jerking us around.

But you are committing a very grave mistake: you are underestimating the unpredictability of quagy's stupidity.

Of this crime I surely am guilty.

[Toaster Strudel]

I guess we are just going to agree to disagree. We are also one of the two only people who still want to lynch Quagy anymore, just to illustrate how the rest of the world don't care about our discussion. Anyway. Has is scummy.

I believe my original point was that Yosarian and hassfas may be scum and deserves closer scrutiny. My argument wasn't about Quagmire's alignment in particular.

The Quagmire argument arose because both Yos and hasdfas were defending Quagmire quite strongly - when rationally, there were more reasons to lynch Quag, than not. And you argued that... aw, I even forget what you argued.

Why did Yos and hasdfas defend Quag so aggressively?

Did they both know it was to be a mislynch? I can't imagine any other reason to defend a player like Quagmire so strongly. But then again, I might be prejudiced.

[Toaster Strudel]

Thanks hasdfas, but I don't think your defense of your defense of Quag is proportionate to the amount of Quag-defense you put into the game. I mean, you really went overboard... on pretty dodgy reasoning... for what is a pretty worthless player... who was jerking us around big time...

~anyway~ more importantly...

Your answer to this:

Post #34 - towards Peers. Why? Because, hasdfas says:
Let's VIG Peers is still here to defend himself.
Let's LYNCH TS, who is not here to defend herself.

... shows that you don't understand my problem with what you said. You probably just need to read my concern again slowly... please explain your words more fully.

In other word...

LYNCHING the scummy player who is there defending himself, and VIGGING the one that's not there to defend herself... that's would be the pro-town strategy, if you HAD to get rid of these two players.

VIGGING the scummy player who is there defending himself, and LYNCHING the one that's not there to defend herself... that's a scum strategy.

Do you get what I'm sayin'?

[Toaster Strudel]

All right, I do get what you're saying. BUT. We had no way of knowing whether you would be back from your prolonged absence.

BUT - that is not relevent. That sentence addresses absolutely nothing. Do you understand why?

You and Peers seem to be the two most scummy players according to most people at this point.

Like who? Who is "most players?" MoS, Quag, and Yosarian? Two people that "policy-voted" me, and another who's been acting pretty weird, at least by my evaluation.

Do you realize you are obliquely admitting that you have no reason to find me scummy, other than what you believe others have been saying? Do you realize you've been doing that a lot this game, and that's kinda a point that bugs me about your play?

Could you explain to me why getting rid of each of them in the other way is a different strategy?

With the greatest of pleasures.

(1) The player that is NOT here to defend his or herself is an easier lynch, agreed? Also, that player be be hammered and not claim, agreed? That's pretty good from a scum point of view, agreed?

(2) The player that IS here to defend himself, might put up a fuss if wrongly accused, agreed? Attacking him might also backfire, which is not good if you're scum pushing for his lynch, agreed?

So... lynching the player that's not around, and vigging the player that is around, is SUPER for the scum, but horrid for the town.

Like... the town gets ZERO info from the lynch because the player hasn't said a word... and gets ZERO information from the vig because the victim can't argue against a vig...

Also, I defended Quag because I feel that the reason for going after him, at least today, is stupid.

But you have voted people for much less dumb, and less blatantly anti-town plays. Have you actually taken the time to read my explanations as to why Quagmire's play is sooooo anti-town? Do you want me to explain that further too? I'll gladly slow down the pace if you need to catch up on it, it's important that you understand fully - in particular, that Quagmire is totally jerking us around? Seriously... I'll be happy to give you the long version.

if he starts acting strange now, after he claims he'd read his role, then let's go after him.

He has acted pretty badly already. First, the policy lynch business; second, jerking us around with the "I didn't read my PM" declaration, and that now we're supposed to believe that (1) he actually didn't read his role (2) he actually read it when he said he did (3) MORE IMPORTANTLY - his saying that he didn't read his role PM was "pro-town." How much nonsense are you willing to tolerate before you find someone lynch-worthy?

The answer is...
(1) policy lynches and declaring openly you haven't read your role... that's OK...
(2) sorry to toot my own horn but useful, scumhunting players like myself... that's BAD...
(3) voting without reason... that's BAD when other players do it...
(4) voting without reason... following other players without even knowing what the players are talking about... that's GOOD when hasdfas does it...

If he doesn't know his role, he's basically a townie, so he was pretty much just a time-wasting bandwagon.

OK - you're going to need the LooooOoooNnnNnGgGggGg explanation.

(1) You are assuming that he actually didn't read his role PM.
Maybe he did read it.
Have you considered this possibility?

(2) You fail to question why a player would announce that he hasn't read his role PM.
Have you wondered why a player would do that?
What would his motives be?
Stop and think.

(3) You are assuming that he did read his PM when he did.
What if he didn't?
What if he read it before the game started like everyone?
If he really didn't read his role PM... how do you KNOW he did read it, without him claiming?
How can you believe a player that's jerking us around with "I haven't read my PM" declarations?

It doesn't really matter what you actually answer to the questions... the thing is, regardless of the answer, the only logical conclusion, is that Quagmire is jerking everybody around AND policy-lynching useful players with a brain that think (maybe not perfectly, but at least, put some genuine effort into the game).

In a nutshell:
(1) policy lynching useful players
(2) jerking the town around
(3) last time he pulled that nonsense, he was scum.

How much more do you need????

[Toaster Strudel]

For clarity, I'll add the following comments.

I am not advocating a Quagmire lynch.

Rather, I am advocating a hasdfas lynch, or maybe a Yosarian2 lynch, depending on Yosarian's responses.

Why is that?

(1) Quag's play is irrational, harmful, and to some extent personality-based, and really dumb. Plus, it's the kind of stunt he pulled as scum.
(2) That kind of play is indefensible.
(3) Who would defend Quagmire? (a) a scumbuddy or (b) a scum who knows this is a mislynch.
(4) Both hasdfas and Yosarian3 defended Quagmire against all logic and to such an extent, and so lacking in subtlety that I cannot possibly see them as Quagmirebuddies. Therefore, I consider hassfas and Yosarian2 to be, quite possibly, among the "knowing minority" that knew Quagmire was a mislynch.
(5) I can't imagine any other rationale for so vehemently defending such completely idiotic play.

Although... if Quagmire's stunt has forced the scum out of their safe haven, maybe he's not so idiotic after all!

vote: hasdgfas

[Toaster Strudel]

Votecount would be good. But finally people are voting KScope. Its new post was so bandwagonny and opportune it smells of scumminess.

Fascinating how how ignore both the cases I made against Yosarian2 and hasdgfas, only paid attention to the last post in the thread (a one-liner to boot), and concluded schis was scum.

Do you understand how you look at least as opportunistic as schis? More scummy by my book, because I understand schis's sentiment that this day has seen a great many good wagons derailed by er, say, Yosarian2 and hasdfas to name a few, has been sorely lacking in votecounts, has lasted way too long, and had stalled. Your berating schis is out of left field.

It's as if you can still see a star twinkling in the sky, when the sun is shining at noon. It smells of scum not paying attention - consciously or not.

Lucky for you, hasdgfas is the lynch today.

[Toaster Strudel]

TS: Fair enough, I do tend to defend people a lot. That being said, some of those things you attack me for weren't actually defending.

You give only one example of someone you're "not defending," namely, MoS - but I know you are not defending MoS, so you picked rather poorly if you tried to defend yourself. You are not responding to my challenging your reasons why you've defended so many players, including Quag, basically saving his worthless skin by unvoting him

in extremis

. Forgive me for thinking that you had to KNOW it was going to be a mislynch.

For example, I'm not interested in defending MOS; what I am doing is attacking Kaleidoscope because his MOS vote looked incredibly scummy, the reasons he gave for it were simply not pro-town and I want a better explination from him.

If you think MoS is scum, why are you attacking his attackers? Presumably you want MoS to be lynched, since you think he's scum, right? So why are you derailing the nascent MoS wagon? YOU said we should pile votes on him until he begins to make sense. Has he?

So what, if, by your own evaluation, Kaleidoscope wants to help by bus'ing MoS?

Attacking someone because of a scummy looking vote is not the same as defending the person they're voting for.

I disagree; especially if the person that player is voting for tops your own scum list.

Attacking Kal for voting someone who you think is scum does not make sense as town play. I have no idea what you're trying to accomplish with this, but I don't this it's pro-town.

[Toaster Strudel]

Oh, to comment on a few other things:

1. I stand by my early comments on the Battle Mage wagon.

That's an easy one, everyone is tired with the "BM First Class Wagon."

What about all the other players you defended?

No more dodging please.

Eh...I do tend to believe Quag didn't read his PM in the first place, because he's mentioned in the Mafia Discussion forum in the past that he has, in the past, not read his PM.

So, you are saying that because he's said it in Mafia Discussion before, that it's true?

Are you saying that it's impossible that he said that in Mafia Discussion to give himself a bit of a Day 1 advantage across the board?

I was not interested in allowing him to do that, so I pressured him until he read his PM.

And you believe that he read his PM when he said he did? There's no doubt in your mind? Like, there's no chance that he's lying and jerking you around?

On the other hand, I do believe him when he said he did read his PM now; this might sound a bit strange, but I have never seen Quagmire lie as town, and a person who hasn't read his PM basically has to assume he's town, right?

Er - yes, it sounds uber-strange. OK. You haven't read, or understood, my argument. At all. See, you're looking at it from the wrong angle. It's not that he's assuming he's town; it's that the stunt

can only help him as scum

and that

it never helps the town, especially not with Quagmire doing it

. Again, for the millionth time, the problem is that he feels the need to declare: "I haven't read my PM." If he didn't read it, and shut up about it, that's one thing; but once he makes this declaration... regardless of whether or not it's true... he's embarked on a course of jerking the town around.

I donno, it's hard to explain, but I do, in fact, think he was telling the truth both times.

This kind of blind trust of a player that advocates policy-lynches and pulled this stunt as scum before, is VERY ANTI-TOWN.

Which dosn't mean he's not scum anyway, of course, but it does mean by

Quag wagon accomplished what I wanted it to accomplish.

What did you want the Quagwagon to accomplish, Yosarian? Tell the whole class.

...the large bandwagon on him also helped solve that, I think; if he does turn out to be scum, I think we'll get a lot of info from the way his bandwagon went.

Argh! How do we know without lynching him, and without him at least claiming??? The large bandwagon solved NOTHING. Thanks to you and hasdgfas, we have nothing. Except the both of you of course, so yeah, I take that back.

[Toaster Strudel]

MOS seems somewhat less scummy so then I did before because I do think he is making some sense now. Basically, when he voted you, I, at the time, had a bad vibe about you, so his vote did make sense to me.

Oh - let me get this straight.

(1) When MoS, who you think is scum, votes for me, who you think is scum, that's good! You vote for me. Even when it looks like I'm gone!
(2) When Kaleidoscope, about whom you have no opinion, votes for MoS, who you think is scum, that's bad! You vote for Kaleidoscope.

Where's the logic?

MOS might be scum, but I'm not sure enough that he is to ignore such anti-town looking votes like the one Kaliedoscope dropped on him.

You sounded pretty sure about MoS being before - even just before Kaleidoscope voted.

(1) Explain what MoS has done to make you more sure he's town. Please list the posts he's made where he makes so much sense that a vote against him becomes a scummy vote.

Eh. Kalei's vote dosn't look or feel like a bussing move, though.

But if YOU think MoS is scum (that's the message you were sending us all so I'll take you at your word for the sake of argument) then Kalei's vote should have been interpreted by you as bus'ing. So when you say "Kalei's vote dosn't look or feel like a bussing move" - you are contradicting yourself - or at least, your own stated beliefs.

It looks more like he was thinking that everyone was mad at MOS at the moment

Really? Why would he think that? There was little momentum on MoS.

No one gets a free pass just because they agree with me.

Except Quagmire. Everything he says is true. You're only a skeptic when it's convenient... you're so scum in this game Yos...

[Toaster Strudel]

All right, my re-read is complete.
The basics of it right now because I don't have much time
TS looks far more pro-town to me than before. I have no idea how I got on her being scum. I'm not a big fan of MoS's contributions. I don't think Quagmire needed to mention that he didn't read his role. There was no point in stating it when he did.

FoS: Quag.

I don't think it deserves a vote, because we don't need to get back on that issue right now.
Schis is lurking and just coming in for bandwagons.

FoS: schis

There are a bunch of people who need either major prodding or replacement.

However, I still feel that Peers is scum. He has not done anything this game that has changed my mind on his alignment.

unvote, vote:Peers

More probably coming when I have more time.

Your glaring, complete and utter lack of mention of Yosarian2 is noted.

The slapdash nature of your analysis leads me to believe you have re-read absolutely nothing at all. Why should you? You're caught scum, aren't you.

[Toaster Strudel]

Are you saying that it's impossible that he said that in Mafia Discussion to give himself a bit of a Day 1 advantage across the board?

I highly doubt it. Lying in mafia discussion in order to get some minor advantage in some future mafia game would be in incredibly poor taste, and would not be behavior I would consider acceptable.

And Quagmire could not do something in "incredibly poor taste?" That's impossible? You can't wrap your head around the idea of Quagmire doing something unacceptable?

Right, which is why I refused to let him get away with it. I STARTED the wagon, remember?

I give you ZERO credit for starting the wagon, since you stated at the onset that it was for pressure only. And he DID get away with it, because you ALSO started the wave that let him get away without having to PROVE that he read his PM, and stop jerking us around. YOU let him get away with it. You and hasdfas.

No blind trust involved at all. It's just that after reading his posts, I tend to think he told the truth both times.

How would you KNOW he's telling the truth? We were all within INCHES of finding out, but nooooo... you and hasdfgas shielded him from the scrutiny of claiming.

and just read what he says and try to figure out for yourself if it feels like he's lying.

No - it's YOUR job to extract from Quagmire's posts what you felt was so convincing when he declared he read his role PM... AT LYNCH MINUS ONE for cryin' out loud... do you get this? He didn't "relent" until he was within hammering range.

Assuming Quag is telling the truth..

Fallacy #1.

he is probably doing this in order to avoid getting pressured/giving

Fallacy #2. It's to discourage people from looking back at his Day 1 behavior, or to plant doubt on the value of any analysis of his Day 1 behavior.

that's the only logical reason to do it, after all.

Fallacy #3, see above.

So he should give up the "not reading the PM" tactic if we pressure him enough.

Fallacy #4. Why, since it might be false in the first place? Maybe he still didn't read it, maybe he'd read it at game start. You don't know, and you're singularly eager to allow yourself to be jerked around.

And frankly, if he dosn't give in to pressure and just read his role PM,

Fallacy #5. See above.

...his "I didn't read my role PM" thing is a better reason for a policy lynch then anything TS's done this game.

Fallacy #6. Thanks to you and hadgfas, we can't be sure of anything - therefore, if you are logical, and pro-town, you don't have any fewer reasons to policy-lynch Quagmire for his stunt, than you did before he claimed to have read his PM.

Confusing tags?

unvote:MOS

You're not voting MoS, you're voting Kaleidoscope.

Still don't like his terrible OMGUS "Oh my god how dare you think my policy lynch attempt is scummy" vote on Jorden, but we'll get back to lynching MOS later.

Why later, always later? You have a better idea? What, you don't think Kaleidoscope is scummier than MoS anymore?

All along, I thought that if we just put enough pressure on Quagmire, he would give up and read his role PM

For the gazillionth time... we don't know whether he did, or when he did it, and what parts of his stunt are manipulating lies, and which parts of his stunt are true.

[Toaster Strudel]

Explain what MoS has done to make you more sure he's town. Please list the posts he's made where he makes so much sense that a vote against him becomes a scummy vote.

Um, no thanks, I already said I'm not interested in trying to defend MOS at this point.

Right. Because MoS has not made any posts that make such stellar sense for you to find, and you know it. And by attacking Kaleidoscope for voting MoS, you are, indirectly protecting MoS, by shifting the attack away from MoS, onto another player.

MOS voted for you at a point of the game where I, as a pro-town player, might have done the exact same thing, so his move made me feel a little better about him.

You do realize that your vote for me came when I was gone, and the only reason you gave is "She looks like over-eager scum to me."

Please explain why your vote for me is pro-town, but Kaleidoscope's vote for MoS isn't,

using the same set of standards.

No one gets a free pass just because they agree with me.

Except Quagmire. Everything he says is true. You're only a skeptic when it's convenient... you're so scum in this game Yos...

There are two specific things Quagmire said that I think are true, and I've explained why I think both things are true a few times now.

Not logically, you haven't.

[Toaster Strudel]

Devil's Advocate time: How do we know you read your PM, TS? How do you know I read mine? How do we know anyone read their PM?

I haven't made any declaration regarding the reading of my role PM either way; to do so would be jerking the town around.

[Toaster Strudel]

All along, I thought that if we just put enough pressure on Quagmire, he would give up and read his role PM

For the gazillionth time... we don't know whether he did, or when he did it, and what parts of his stunt are manipulating lies, and which parts of his stunt are true.

Devil's Advocate time: How do we know you read your PM, TS? How do you know I read mine? How do we know anyone read their PM?

Devil's Advocate time, Part 2: from all the discussion that has been going on, cornering on hasdgfas and Yosarian (and not Quagmire, as hasgfas and Quagmire might have slipped might be a mislynch), why do you choose to ask me a question whose answer cannot possibly be informative, and fails to contain any statement of YOUR OWN OPINION on hasfgas and Yosarian2?

I hope you realize that hasdfas' bizarre and "out of left field" fixation on YOU reeks of distancing?

[Toaster Strudel]

Full-random

vote: hasdgfas

Speaking of distancing between you and hasdfas. Let me remind you of your first, "full random vote", Peers.

Coincidence?

[Toaster Strudel]

[quote="Yosarian2"][quote="TS"]And by attacking Kaleidoscope for voting MoS, you are, indirectly protecting MoS, by shifting the attack away from MoS, onto another player.[/quote]You know, by that logic, you're defending Quagmire and MOS and everyone else by attacking me. [/quote]Exactly. I am.
[quote="Yosarian2"][quote]
Please explain why your vote for me is pro-town, but Kaleidoscope's vote for MoS isn't,

using the same set of standards.

[/quote]
Did you read Kaleidoscope's comments about MOS?
[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]Ergo, MoS contradicts himself. He should get lynched (and raped)

Unvote Vote: Mastermind of Sin

[/quote]
[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]It's a policy lynch, MoS. I doubt I have to explain you that, no? <3[/quote]Do you actually not think those posts are scummy? [/quote]They don't jump out at me, no.

[quote="Yosarian2"]He attacked MOS for a bogus reason that didn't make any sense[/quote]It made sense to me.

[quote="Yosarian2"]...and when he was called on it, he instead insisted that his MOS vote was a "policy lynch", which makes even less sense. I certanly think his behavior there deserves a vote, don't you?[/quote]You said you'd vote MoS until he makes sense, and Quag until he read his role PM. Please state ahead of time what Kaleidoscope has to do for you to later the derail the wagon you are starting

[quote="Yosarian2"][quote="TS"]...[quote="Yos"]There are two specific things Quagmire said that I think are true, and I've explained why I think both things are true a few times now.[/quote]Not logically, you haven't.[/quote]Um, yes, logically, I have explained why I think both comments are true. [/quote]Not to any standard of logic. You haven't explained why you believe everything Quagmire says, but you're skeptical of other players.

[quote="Yosarian2"][You have yet to point out any logical flaws in my explination for either one of those. [/quote]I so totally have, like, over and over. You have failed to give LOGICAL, BELIEVABLE reasons why you are so eager to take Quagmire's nonsense as the truth, Quagmire who has policy voted me, Quagmire who has jerked us around, Quagmire whom you've allowed to go claimless, Quagmire who has pulled his stunt as scum, Quagmire who continues to vote me (a player you now feel might just be town).

[quote="Yosarian2"]Make a logical argument about exactally what you think he was lying about, when, and what exactly he would have to gain by it. If you think he's lying scum, the burden of proof here is really on you.[/quote]I've already answered this

ad nauseum

. I've explained that it's impossible to tell whether he's told the truth at all at any time, especially since you let him get away without claiming, and I've explained many times that his "strategy" can only help him personally if he's scum.

[Toaster Strudel]

I feel like I should be saying something right now because the discussion is on me. However, I'll refrain unless people have any specific questions into my behavior becaues this argument is between Yos2 and TS. I'd like to note that I'm still voting for TS and none of my intentions have changed since I posted content last.

I do have questions.

Did you omit to mention hasgfas on purpose, or accidentally?

Also, I'd like the following from you:
Please give your opinion of Peers.
Please give your opinion of hasdfgas.
Please give your opinion of Yosarian2.
Please order these 3 players on a scale from town to scum.
Please provide appropriate quotes to support any statements that you make.

[Toaster Strudel]

Full-random

vote: hasdgfas

Speaking of distancing between you and hasdfas. Let me remind you of your first, "full random vote", Peers.
Coincidence?

Nope. not random at all. You caught me. I'm obviously distancing myself from my scumbuddies, hasdfas, Yosarian, and Quagmire. We had a brilliant plan that was going to get us the win in this game quite easily, but your keen, analytical mind managed to pierce our veil of secrecy, sieze upon every minute, unseen flaw in our plan, and have managed to win the game for the town on the very first day.

Tell me, what's more likely... that a random vote was cast weeks ago and that person is now voting against me simply out of coincidence, or the above scenario?

Don't knock it; you'll find some people saying that Day 1's are a crap shoot, but if you've played a lot of games, and a lot of them as scum, so start to see that this is exactly the kind of thing scum *tend* to do.

Example. Your first random vote is for hasdfas, right? Sure, by itself, it's not much, in fact, it's nothing. But then... hasdfas makes a lot of really bad mistakes, and he's looking really scummy, and he feels cornered. On of his mistakes is to display an obsession with you. Why you? I cannot think of anything that you have done, Peers, that is so scummy that a player would always want to go back and vote for you. Out of the blue, when there's little hope that any momentum will carry you to the lynching block. So... there's a chance that what hasfdgfas is doing, is last minute distancing. And, then I notice that your first "random" vote was for him.

If hasdfas turns up town, Peers, then you have absolutely NOTHING to worry about from him. If hasdfas turns up scum... well... you're not looking so good.

The sad thing is... I was buying your case on Yos and hasdaflag. It was logical, it made sense, and then I ask one little question and you go rabid-pit-bull on me.

I tend to question and challenge a lot. When I saw that the question you asked comkpletely skirted around the true issues at stake at the moment, which is the scumminess of hasdfas and Yosarian2, I thought, hmmm... why is Peers beingn so irrelevent... and... hey! Funny how hasdfas is obsessed with Peers... yes, that's really been bugging me a lot... so then I look at your posts, and all seem fine, so hasdfas's obsessions seems even more bizarre... and then I notice that your first vote is on him.

Ease off the paranoia a little before you begin to lose what momentum you've earned with the rest of us the last couple days.

Bah. Momentum, schmomentum. I see no evidence of momentum. Yosarian2 (no surprise here) isn't voting for hasfas, so I haven't convinced him; you have showed up, but you haven't voted for either of my nominees; Zu_faul also showed up with some comment that shows he's read nothing at all; even vote-happy ABR hasn't switched his vote. Show me the momentum...

[Toaster Strudel]

Also, I'd like the following from you:
Please give your opinion of Peers.
Please give your opinion of hasdfgas.
Please give your opinion of Yosarian2.
Please order these 3 players on a scale from town to scum.
Please provide appropriate quotes to support any statements that you make.

"You must have the above typed out, double-spaced, in no larger than fourteen-point font, on my desk at the beginning of class on Tuesday. This paper is weighted just the same as a test, so it will have a definite impact on your grade. Make sure you correctly use footnotes for your citations and no, Wikipedia and 'I heard on TV' are not allowed as sources."

Speaking of which... I want you to complete that assignment, too. Would you please? So far you have not made comments that are directly relevent to the discussion. The assignment will keep you focused, haha.

[Toaster Strudel]

I cannot think of anything that you have done, Peers, that is so scummy that a player would always want to go back and vote for you.

Your very third post, you thought someone was bussing me and decided to help them by voting for me. Now you think someone's distancing themselves from me. You go far as to say (your sixth post) that I'm trying to make myself look good because I know Sikario is a mislynch.

Thank you for the reminder. But is it soooo scummy that a player would always want to go back and vote you?

You say hasdgfas has a genuine reason to be voting for me. And yet now, over a month later, you decide he's distancing from me?

That's part of the kind of thing I like to look for - and believe it or not, there is no contradiction whatsoever. Let's suppose that hasdfas and you are buddies, for the sake of discussion. He's very atuned to what you do that is, in fact, scummy. Because he knows you're scum, and he knows what you're up to. But he has other goals: (1) he must show that he's pro-town, by showing that he's clever at finding scum (you in this hypothesis) and attacking scum and (2) earn himself some "town cred" in order to last long in the game. Therefore, if you do anything vaguely scummy, your buddies will often be the first to call you out on it. Not always - these are not absolutes - but often. So... it's very possible that hasdfas has genuine reasons for voting you; because he's scum, and you're scum, and he wants to show he's good at catching scum and a valuable "townie" and he needs to distance from you.

You left your vote on me until early December, when you changed it to MoS. Two days later, you switched to Quagmire for the read-your-PM bandwagon, while still saying you're not happy I 'got away' without claiming. You then leave for thirteen days and come back focused on Yosarian and hasdaflag.

What's wrong with that? Nice description.

...you're praying for someone else to start a bandwagon on me.

I am? Defensive much? I'm all over hasdgas and Yosarian, and I'm praying for someone else to start a wagon on you, AND I berate hasfas for doing exactly that, which is, starting a bandwagon on you???

If I turn up scum, you can say "I told you so!" If I turn up town, you can berate whoever started the wagon because you obviously had seen I was town when you took your vote off me. Either way, you come out smelling like roses.

You're mighty nervous. Whose lynch am I advocating? hasdfas or Yosarian. Who am I voting for? hasdfgas. You were off my mind... I'd obviously forgotten why I found you scummy earlier... I was even after hasfgas for voting you... jumpy jumpy jumpy!

Why are you totally ignoring Yosarian2 and hasdfas, by the by?

[Toaster Strudel]

Toaster'd

1. hasdfgas
2. Yosarian2
3. Peers

distant fourth...

4. Quagmire (maybe - maybe Yosarian wanted his buddy to read his PR so that he plays better as scum? The jury's still out)

[Toaster Strudel]

You should change that to Toasted !

I luuuv the smell of toasted scum in the mornin'!

Which one are you spreading your marmalade on?

[Toaster Strudel]

[Toaster Strudel]

Why are you totally ignoring Yosarian2 and hasdfas, by the by?

Because Yosarian's responded to every attack you've launched on him,

He has not... not by a long shot.

and the last time I voted for hasdaflag you decided I was scummy,

Referring to your first vote? Oh, yes, you can't vote hasdsfas, even if you think he's scum, in case the Toaster might think you're scum!

so there's no point in me mentioning him either way, now is there?

You're right! Don't mention Yosarian2, don't vote fo hassdgfas, attack me instead!!! You know what you sound like? You sound like totally panicked scum. And now, totally panicked scum that's given up. I approve.

[Toaster Strudel]

Yay, I have the approval of someone who threw a hissy-fit, said they were quitting the site, and then decided to start playing the game again! With such rational behavior approving of me, I should go slit my wrists now before I realize just how bad things have gotten!

Haha. You can't be talking about me, because you don't have my approval! Pretty lame defense... is there a defense? Is there a comment on the points I brought up?



See? That's you on the toast. ...on the left...

Anyway... with this I will end my toastrampage. The rest of you can stew in the jam cooking pot and make up your minds one way or another. I've sucked enough fun out of the game! for now.

[Toaster Strudel]

Haha. You can't be talking about me, because you don't have my approval!

Really? Post 778:

I approve.

You can't even keep straight what you've posted in the last hour. Astonishing.

Include the whole context... which was: "And now, totally panicked scum that's given up. I approve."

Still ignoring the case against hasdfdafdas and Yosarian, Peers?

Come on. What are your thoughts? You have the floor, and my undivided attention. I want to know what you think.

[Toaster Strudel]

And your case on hasdaflag includes, as one of the more important parts of it, that he's distancing himself from his scumbuddy -- me.

Not the most important, though: here's a reminder.

Analyzing:

hasdfas a.k.a. "God forbid we should lynch Quagmire"

Special love for MoS

Post #0 - semi-random vote: Mastermind of Sin. What's that all about?
Post #1 - Wimpy rebuttal after being attacked for a "semi-random" vote. What's that all about?
Post #11 - http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 349#834349 - what's that all about?
Post #17 - http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 485#853485 - pays special attention to MoS, asking him reasons for voting Jordan. What's that all about?

Contradicts himself

Post #3 - berates votes unsupported by reasons.
Post #4 - votes Peers unsupported by reasons.
Post #5 - is sad that Jordan, schis, and ABR aren't berated for voting without reason.
Post #6 - defends himself against the players that noticed his contradictions.

Admits to a complete lack of independent thinking

Post #8 - admits his reasons for voting Peers are exactly the same as other players.
Post #10 - repeats his reason are exactly the same as other players, saying "See: everyone's posts about him."

Meekly defends Sikario8

Post #12 - "leaning town on Sikario."
Post #13 - keeps up pressure on the main Peers wagon, away from Sikario8.

Defends Quagmire early on, in the middle, and at the end of the wagon

Even defends people that aren't voting Quag!!!

Votes players that (ack!) suggest we should lynch Quag!!!

Does not even question that Quagmire may be lying about it

Post #20 - Not reading role PM isn't anti-town, because the Day 1 lynch is random.
Post #21 - Thinks it's really pro-town not to read your PM,

especially if Quagmire is scum.

Post #22 - Maintains, against common sense, that Quag not reading his PM is really pro-town.
Post #23 - "just because someone [...] doesn't want to lynch Quag doesn't make them scum."
Post #23 - Quag not reading his role PM is

really great!!!

Post #24 - Attacks AND FOS's Sikario8 for going as far as saying we should

actually lynch

Quag.
Post #30 - Demands more pressure be put on Peers, a nice old wagon he might be able to revive.

Strudel must be done away with

Post #34 - "TS doesn't seem to be here to defend herself. We can make the mod's job a lot easier if we lynch someone that scummy today."
WOW. I'm surprised that post didn't jump at people.
Post #13 - keeps up pressure on the main Peers wagon, away from Sikario8.

Directs the vig

Post #34 - towards Peers. Why?

Because, hasdfas says:
Let's VIG Peers is still here to

defend himself

.
Let's LYNCH TS, who is

not here to defend herself

.

IN SUMMARY

(1) I don't know what's going on with the defense, then fleeting accusations against Sikario8. Maybe some other player can try to interpret this?
(3) That special attention hasdfas pays MoS...
(2) Just like Yosarian, defends Quagmire.
(4) Just like Yosarian, wants to get rid of me - does not state his own reasons as usual; relies on other people's.
(5) Dear players, please ask yourself what agenda hasdfas might have, that he'd want to lynch the person that can't defend herself, and vig the person that can. Please please please ask yourselves.

Another hour, another long long long post... just me sucking the fun out of the game as usual. I just make games stagnate and lose their focus. I apologize!

[Toaster Strudel]

However, if you're going to continue thinking that I'm scum based mostly on the fact that I was defending Quag, then please look more closely at MoS, who was doing the same thing. k? thanks.

But now, just to please you, even though I may not agre, I will look more closely at Yos2 at then get back with my thoughts.

Thank you for looking at Yos more closely, and I look forward to your analysis.

Also, can you help out, and make a detailed post about MoS's defense of Quag?

I've spent more time on mafia this week that I should

I hope you can do it soon.

[Toaster Strudel]

Thank you for your insight.

I'll point out that an experienced, smooth player like Yos is bound to leave

subtle

clues if at all.

Would you be able to repeat the exercize with Peers, since you believe him to be the scummiest player?

Would you also be able to evaluate MoS's

other

contributions, those that have nothing to do with the Quagwagon?

[Toaster Strudel]

Do we have a volunteer for an unbiased, post-by-post analysis of Quagmire?

=======================

Once we've got this all done, I'll crunch all the numbers we have in my scumputer, and post the calculations and the output. It's kinda become my personal challenge to test my theories in real-life, and using cold hard data - even day 1 data. So far it works much better than I'd expect. Not perfect, but pretty amazingly good. When the game ends it'll be fun to go back and see the accuracy.

[Toaster Strudel]

Don't forget that the two players that started this game with a policy vote on me (MoS and Quagmire) are the only two players that are still voting for me. Therefore, their continued denial of said policy vote is bound to be met with some skepticism, and counter-reactions such as KaleiÐoscøpe's.

[Toaster Strudel]

Extracting Yosarian's comments on Kal's vote for MoS:

"what I am doing is attacking Kaleidoscope because his MOS vote looked

incredibly scummy

, the reasons he gave for it were simply not pro-town and I want a better explanation from him." Emphasis mine.

"It looks more like he was thinking that everyone was mad at MOS at the moment." How many votes did MoS have at the time? Two? Three?

Yos - it sounds to me like you're willing to vote left and right, but you'll not willing to be part of an actual lynch.

I don't know what it means, just observin', that's all.

[Toaster Strudel]

Did you omit to mention hasgfas on purpose, or accidentally?

Is there anything about him worth talking about? I see nothing that sparks my eye.

Really? Nothing at all?

Also, I'd like the following from you:
Please give your opinion of Peers.
Please give your opinion of hasdfgas.
Please give your opinion of Yosarian2.
Please order these 3 players on a scale from town to scum.
Please provide appropriate quotes to support any statements that you make.

The only one of these that I'm going to answer is something that I've already answered. I refuse to do anything that you request me to do because no matter what I say, you're never going to believe a word that I say and nothing I say or do will ever remove your annoying and worthless "conspiracy theory" on me.

I am not asking you to make statements of fact that can be verified with the scientific method. I have asked for your

opinions

about three players, Peers, hasfgas, and Yosarian. This is not something for other players to "believe" or not "believe" but rather, to allow us to evaluate whether or not your agenda is pro-town.

We need to be able to evaluate YOU, Quagmire. This is why we shouldn't let you get away with jerking us around, avoiding to claim, and now, refusing to commit to an opinion that may give us information concerning your alignment.

This being said, if you read my earlier posts with care, you might have noticed that I am rather inclined to think that you are town, and that Yosarian, MoS, and hasfgas positioned themselves to look good in the event of what they might have known was a mislynch.

We still need to have your opinion on players other than myself. You need to put some effort in the game. I happen to think that you can be very intelligent if you choose to apply yourself.

Anything anyone says or does is a catch-22 to you; you look for ways to back up what you think in that crazy tiny little noggin of yours instead of trying to take a look at what's actually happening.

That's patently untrue; I don't let players get away with slapdash, flawed arguments and yes, I can be stubborn. But I am in fact pleased with hasdfgas's response, much less so with Yosarian's, and I can't figure out what Peers is up to.

You should be aware that, after you and MoS have announced that you want to policy-lynch me, your continued voting for me amidst fresh denials of policy-voting looks like it is the both of you that are looking "for ways to back up what you think in that crazy tiny little noggin of yours instead of trying to take a look at what's actually happening." No?

You imply that I haven't tried to take a look at "what's actually happening." - OK - here's your chance. What IS actually happening, that I am missing?

It is also partially because of this behavior that I'm voting for you. But I've already detailed that.

Once again, you are betraying yourself; you have just stated that you are voting me because "'Anything anyone says or does is a catch-22 to you; you look for ways to back up what you think in that crazy tiny little noggin of yours instead of trying to take a look at what's actually happening" - that's policy-voting.

You might read that last sentence and think that it's a policy vote.

You're right, I do, because it is.

Well, it's not. Please note the post where I've looked up your scummy behavior

in this game that you oh-so-conveniently ignored

and respond to me when you stop being so thick-skulled. Thanks.

You have failed to convince anyone, and you are going nowhere with it.

[Toaster Strudel]

Everything that Quagmire has done so far in this game has amounted to SABOTAGE.

(1) Not reading his role PM - or maybe reading his role PM, who knows.
(2) Announcing that he has not read his role PM.
(3) Waiting until he was at lynch minus one to say that he had now read his role PM - maybe he did, maybe he didn't.
(4) Policy voting a single player, and not even bothering to look at anyone else. Making a "case" against that player that has all the credibility of a kangaroo court playing out a foregone conclusion.
(5) Refusing to commit himself to an opinion on any other player than the policy-lynch.
(6) Doing absolutely zero to try to assist the town in finding scum.
(7) Worse still, his "strategy" ("not" reading PM, policy-lynch blinders on, refusal to express opinion on other players) makes it much more difficult for the rest of us to find evaluate your alignment, and to link you to other players.

[Toaster Strudel]

Yos - it sounds to me like you're willing to vote left and right, but you'll not willing to be part of an actual lynch.

Eh. Yeah, I vote really easily and change my vote really easily on day 1, to try to get the game moving and to get reactions from everyone. On the other hand, if I have a bad feeling about a wagon later on, I try to not be on it.

Mmmm... yeah... a'right... I would have guessed that working to reverse wagons would do the opposite of getting the game moving... anyway...

Care to comment on Quagmire now that he's allegedly acquainted himself with his role PM? In particular:

(1) Do you personally believe he is still policy/vendetta voting?

(2) Care to comment on his recent contribution, and how it fits with the rest of his contribution in the game? Maybe I missed something, and you have a sharp eye.

[Toaster Strudel]

[quote="Yosarian2"][quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 894#839894
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 990#878990[/quote]Ummm....you have one link where he "policy voted" TS early in the game, and another link where he explained that he had unvoted TS at one point, thus ending his "policy vote", and then re-voted her later because she started to look scummy. He was pretty clear about that too, in that very post you quote:[quote="MOS"]Jordan, did you fucking miss the long period of time where I unvoted TS and voted you because I wasn't going to policy lynch her??? Did you also miss the part where I made a case against her and revoted for completely separate reasons that had nothing to do with a policy lynch? [/quote]So, where, exactally, is this "contradiction" you speak of, Kalei?[/quote]
Yosarian, it's painfully obvious; to me anyway.

Both MoS and Quag have announced policy votes. MoS unvoted me at some point, and he even voted for a couple of people prior to the announcement, early in the game. Quag has yet to pay attention to a player other than his policy votee.

Both policy voters are the only players voting for me, and we're what? Page 33? 34?.

In this context, it's easy to see why Quagmire's "case" against me reeks of kangaroo court justice, and MoS's temporary unvote hasn't shaken off the smell of policy vote.

I doubt their policy vote denials fool anybody. Their actions bely their words.

[Toaster Strudel]

[quote="Yosarian2"]They may have more inclined to vote for you for other reasons, but that dosn't mean they don't also legitmatly suspect you. A does not invalidate B. [/quote]One has to decide what makes the most sense; legitimate reasons to suspect me, or making up reasons to cover up the continued policy votes? My vantage point is biased of course.

[quote="Yosarian2"]And I'd much rather if you'd let KaleiÐoscøpe try to explain his own scummy actions...[/quote]Tit for tat! You did that to me when I was trying to get answers out of Peers! Or least I think it's you... ...and I think it was Peers...

[Toaster Strudel]

So, Quagmire, I would also like to hear what you think about different people in the game; as we don't really have any information on you until about 10 pages ago like to hear a little more about your current thoughts about the game.

Now that you've spit out your bile, Quagmire, Yosarian2 asked you the above question. Please answer.

[Toaster Strudel]

I submit this quote as evidence that Quagmire is continuing to policy lynch or is at the very least completely blindsided:

Although I would like to add that I'm glad you're leaving. I hope you leave the site for good.

I submit this quote as evidence that Quagmire continues to refuse to participate, after alledgedly reading his role PM:

I'm not going to claim anytime soon. This conversation is worthless. Stop trying to "lead discussion" somewhere, because it's not going to go anywhere. I'm not going to claim anytime soon. This conversation is worthless. Stop trying to "lead discussion" somewhere, because it's not going to go anywhere. [...] Lynching me would be stupid. I'm on the town's side. Toaster Strudel is mafia, from what I've gathered. That's all that I'm going to say.

I feel like I should be saying something right now because the discussion is on me. However, I'll refrain unless people have any specific questions into my behavior becaues this argument is between Yos2 and TS.

I refuse to do anything that you request me to do [...]

Nothing else is worth talking about at the moment. Nobody else has come up with a convincing argument to sway me and nothing's made me change my mind about what I think. So, until then, I have nothing additional to say.[...]Otherwise, you're just going to hear me say, "I don't have anything to say," if everyone continues trying to badger me about my thoughts on every single person in the game.

Paradoxically, Quagmire berates schismatized for non-contribution:

The burden of proof lies with the person making the assertion.

yeah but in a game with so little proof is this still relevant?

Start contributing please

[Toaster Strudel]

Nine excellent reasons to lynch Quagmire:

(1) Jerked town around about role PM business.
(2) Needed to be at lynch minus 1 to allegedly read it.
(3) Has done absolutely nothing pro-town.
(4) Sabotaged all attempts for us to evaluate his alignment.
(5) His current strategy is to make sure he cannot be linked to any other player but one.
(6) Stubbornly policy voting a single player while denying it.
(7) Categorically refuses to answer questions - even from Yosarian who defended him earlier.
(8) This lynch will be informative of the alignment of the players that defended him, ie Yosarian, MoS and hasdfas.

(9) To completely refuse to involve oneself in the game in any capacity beyond a wholly useless policy vote, is thoroughly scummy.

That's the kind of thing a mafiosi might do in order not to compromise his buddies and leave no hints leading to them.

unvote, vote: Quagmire

- not for pressure, but for lynching.

[Toaster Strudel]

... so what was the point of making a convincing case on hasdaflag and a not-so-convincing case on Yos if you were just going to switch over to yet another person who's ticked you off???

(Mind you, if the scumteam is Yos, hasdaflag, and Quag, you're going to look like a genius.)

Yeah I know. I have the hardest time deciding between these three players. That's pretty obvious. All of them are scummy for completely different reasons. However, hasfgas and Yosarian have reassured me somewhat, whereas Quagmire now appears overwhelmingly scummy. Wildly scummy.

I dunno. I wish some other players would weigh in with opinions and comments. We need a fresh outlook in this game, one that isn't mine.

[Toaster Strudel]

Pressuring Quag to claim is pointless right now, given that must of us don't even believe that he's bothered to read his PM. He's possibly the only person in this game where a BW would be for a lynch, not for pressure.

What???

If he has to claim... he will HAVE to read his PM if he still hasn't - regardless of all the nonsense he's previously ruined the game with.

That's not "pointless" - that's a very specific goal that cannot fail.

What's a BW anyway?

[Toaster Strudel]

(Mind you, if the scumteam is Yos, hasdaflag, and Quag, you're going to look like a genius.)

I'm throwing you and MoS in the bunch, for the betting people out there.

[Toaster Strudel]

I also approve of Bookitty. More so now that that Quagmire has blessed her with his vote.

Hey... anyone noticed?

hasdagas has defended Quagmire...
...and now Quagmire is defending hasdagas!

[Toaster Strudel]

Do you trust Quag, TS? If so, why bother pressuring him? If not, why bother pressuring him?

unvote, vote: Quagmire

- not for pressure, but for lynching.

Link to actual post - Yes, actually, you're right, I didn't understand what you said at first. I agree: I want to LYNCH him.

[Toaster Strudel]

Interesting vote, MoS. For many reasons.

There are 6 votes for Quagmire, 3 for Peers, and 3 for Kscope. Let's suppose you strategically decided to give steam to a wagon that competes with Quagmire's wagon, to indirectly protect Quagmire maybe, you'd switch your vote to either Peers or Kscope.

You voted for Kscope for no reason.
You didn't vote for Peers. You voted for Kscope.
See, I noticed.

Let's look at your relationship with Kscope:

This is the first time you mention Kscope in the game, not counting the one time you made fun of a typo of his name. An unsupported vote.

Let's look at your relationship with Peers:

Early in the game, you jumped on JordanA24 for putting (agack!) a FOURTH vote on Peers, and you voted for JordanA24, and accused him of throwing smoke and flames.

You yourself did once find Peers worthy of an FOS: FOS of Peers

Earlier in the game, I posted this crazy theory:

MoS's lack of reading the game (if he read the game he would not have dismissed my contribution so lackadaisically), combined with his own near complete lack of participation, and sudden attempt to distract from the Peers wagon leads me to believe that we might be on to something with the Peers wagon.

You said it was a ridiculous theory. And yes, it might have been premature. But isn't it strange that, although you saw fit to FOS Peers, you twice made moves that might save his skin.

And you've protected Quagmire, too.

Just pointing it out for posterity, because I want to be a genius when Quagmire, MoS, hasdagas, Yosarian2 and Peers come up scum!

[Toaster Strudel]

Keep that up, and I'm going to start thinking you're town, hasdgfas.

[Toaster Strudel]

hahahahahaha too bad i'm town!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's easy to type, and the least convincing of possible arguments.

Prove it. Claim.

[Toaster Strudel]

OK!

Die.

Bye!

[Toaster Strudel]

I don't see a need for him to claim.

Neither do I.

We can just lynch him and get it over with already.

After he claimed he read his role PM, he didn't play like a power role, he played like scum. Anti-town, through and through.

YagamiLight, forget about the reading the PM business. Go and carefully analyze Quagmire's behavior throughout the game. It's much, much more than just the announcement that he didn't read his role PM. Let's not get hung up on arguments over this. Look at how he wasted 30+ pages policy voting, didn't claim earlier at lynch -1, refused to answer questions even from his friend Yosarian, stubbornly refused to cooperate, try to find scum, and actually play the game in a manner that HELPS the town. He only recently switched his vote from me to Bookitty to intimidate her, in my opinion, because Bookitty was using her brain, and Quagmire wets his bed every time he has to deal with a player that is able to think.

Even if you want to believe that his not reading his PM meant we had "another townie" do you seriously think he was helping the town in anyway shape or form? He sure wasn't "another townie" helping us find scum.

[Toaster Strudel]

Why in the world would I do this and lie about it if I'm scum? What do I have to gain in this situation?

Everything. You would gain everything.

Let's say on Day 1 we know you're scum. We go back, and analyze what you did on Day 1 to find your buddies. But noooooo... maybe you didn't read your role PM, so ready your Day1 contribution becomes a pointless exercize for the rest of us to find your buddies.

As scum, you stand to gain EVERYTHING from pulling that stunt.

[Toaster Strudel]

Besides all that, we'd be complete fools not to lynch Quagmire at this point. Although he was careful not to link himself to other players beyond policy-voting me, following MoS and trying to intimidate Bookitty a little, we have several players that have linked themselves to him, by defending him.

His lynch will be a treasure of information for the townies that have night actions to intelligently choose their targets tonight. We totally need to know Quag's alignment now. Knowing Quag's alignment is also the key to a very productive Day 2.

[Toaster Strudel]

No, I'm not indirectly protecting Quagmire. I'm more than willing to state that this town would be idiotic to lynch Quagmire today. The wagon against him shows a complete lack of reasonable actions and logic.

Sorry if I said "indirectly" - I guess I will have to upgrade to "directly" now.

You're not fooling anybody you know, with the rest of that post, but nice try. I like it when scum refuses to give up.

[Toaster Strudel]

My experience in this game is that people that give the town a hard time about claiming are almost always scum.

[Toaster Strudel]

MoS will never, ever, admit to being wrong about anything.

MoS was not policy voting me because I am "unhelpful and make the game less fun." I can't say the real reason why he's policy voting, but I do know what it is. It would ruin another game that is ongoing if I were to reveal his true motive.

If he was policy voting players that are unhelpful and make the game less fun, why isn't he policy voting Quagmire?

Blanket of Suspicion (BoS)

on all players that defend Quagmire, whose behavior in this game is absolutely indefensible. Either they are protecting a buddy, or they know it's a mislynch. Under the blanket: YagamiLight, MoS, Peers, Yosarian2, and hasdagas (though hasdagas' recent behavior makes me less confident that he might be scum).

[Toaster Strudel]

I enjoy playing with you, TS.

Aw, and I enjoy playing with you, too. I find that you bring solid insight and common sense.

[Toaster Strudel]

...it would clue her in as to the detriment her playstyle has upon the game in general. I was hoping that she would take it as a hint and at least *try* to reevaluate her own playstyle so that the town could have a better chance of winning. She prides herself on "frustrating" scum, but I don't think she realizes how much

more

frustrating she is to a protown player.

I take no pride in such things as you describe. I am an eccentric. I think differently. Not always better. I cannot change my playstyle, because my playstyle reflects how I think.

Quagmire is obviously being juvenile as usual. *shrug* Doesn't make him scum any more than not reading his role pm does.

Your refusal to acknowledge that Quagmire has actually been anti-town since he allegedly read his role PM is noted.

I have a much higher opinion of your intelligence and your maturity than I do with Quagmire, so it was worth the effort to try and get your attention, since you obviously were unaware of the effect of your playstyle.

I appreciate the thought, but I can't change. I see scum under every rock.

Quagmire's behavior is unassailable, you mean. There is no adequate attack that paints him as scum.

I vigorously beg to differ. Being anti-town is being scum. Refusing to answer questions is scum. Refusing to claim is scum.

I'm apathetic to mafia now more than ever so I find no desire to allocate my resources in actually playing the game.

YESSSS! Scum refusing to claim, and acknowledging giving up.

she's incredibly convinced that someone on the town's side is scum.

Who? You can't possibly mean you. In the small chance that you may be town, your lynch will help us a great deal to find the scum tomorrow. I'd be shocked if you're town.

[Toaster Strudel]

Uh, whatever bro. Let's lynch this dumbass.

He's refusing to claim, and he just said he has "no desire to allocate [his] resources in actually playing the game."

Four more votes for Quagmire = one less scum in the game.

[Toaster Strudel]

I find no desire to allocate my resources in actually playing the game.

Claim scum already, and vote for yourself. You owe the rest of us that much for jerking us around nearly 40 pages.

[Toaster Strudel]

So, what song are you listening to right now ?

"Scum of the Earth" byt the Red Zombies. You?

[Toaster Strudel]

Everyone can feel free to use the palindrome as much as they want.

You can also mix it up as well.

TOOT, HI IH, TOOT

Let me suggest this one:

vote: Quagmire erimgauQ :etov

[Toaster Strudel]

TS, so far it looks to me like Quag is logical town.

Logical? Town? Show me.

My best guess is that IH hasn't read the game.

[Toaster Strudel]

Anyone here ever tried meditation ? Maybe its worth trying to increase focus and short term memory.

Hey, wanna learn macramé? We have 12 days. At the end, we can have a macramé challenge. We can lynch the most sloppily knotted plant hanger or something. That is, if this town can ever reach a consensus on lynching a macramé project.

God forbid we should lynch a valuable player like Quagmire. Or any player. Hey... here's another idea. Let's start a discussion about going for "no lynch" then ask for a deadline extension after we get a majority on the no lynch vote.

[Toaster Strudel]

Anyway. Where was I before we went on this tangent ? Ah yes. I can attest to some Zen books being good reading, quite entertaining actually, but also riddled with epiphanies here and there. Anyone familiar with Amitabha Sutra ?

Yeah I know, this game is a distraction sometimes. I am going to need a huge Zen library if that creationist Huckabee becomes president.

Can I take this moment to show off some of my Chinese Calligraphy?

[Toaster Strudel]

It looks really skinny. Why don't you use a thicker brush ?

It's a pretty large scroll actually. These characters are very ancient, and no longer in use today. They are called "seal script" and they are skinnier than the modern Chinese characters. Their aesthetic is radically different.

Glad you found my tree fungus.

[Toaster Strudel]

Sorry about this game distraction, but Yosarian2 appears to studiously avoid this game, he's posting all over the place but here.

Yes I'm paranoid... maybe Yosarian2 doesn't want to weigh in on Quagmire until it looks like Quagmire is about to be lynched for sure, haha. He doesn't want to waste his buddy unless it looks like a lynch is inevitable...

*taking my anti-hallucination tablets*

*off to paint more fungus*

[Toaster Strudel]

Yeah, but Yosarian2 is not just lurking my friend... he's lurking his way off a Quagmire bandwagon, in particular.

I approve of you vote for MoS, IH. But please read the other half of the game. We're voting Quagmire on account of events and posts that occurred later in this interminable Day 1.

[Toaster Strudel]

I like your main page, its beautiful.

Thank you.

Two blondes were sitting outside on a beautiful summer's night just looking at the stars and full moon.

Blonde #1. "I wonder which is farthest, the moon or Florida".

Blonde #2. "Duh, we can see the moon".

================

Two blondes are the computer playing Mafia.

Blonde #1. "I wonder which is will take the longest, the deadline, or the Quagmire lynch".

Blone #2. "Duh, Yosarian is coming to come in any minute and tell us that he can't vote for Quagmire because he's an indispensable asset to the town".

[Toaster Strudel]

Eh? That's a curious comment. How would lynching a pro-town quagmire help us find the scum tommorow?

Some scum might blend in the wagon, but others will defend him vigorously knowing that he'd be a mislynch. It's a long shot though.

Now, if we lynch him and he's scum, that gives us more info.

Indeed, that I think that's the more likely alternative. I for one am quite convinced that players that delay or refuse to claim are generally scum.

[Toaster Strudel]

Unvote

Have you been crazed out of your wits?

Good grief.... 3 months and forty pages and we still can't lynch a player that refuses to claim and sabotages the game... We don't even have a single claim... This is the least productive bunch of people ever.

[Toaster Strudel]

On Quagmire: The one time I've seen Quag as scum he played completely differently to this.

Maybe he's changed his ways since; he is squarely anti-town in this game. Don't arrest your analysis at the "not reading the PM" business, it's passé and besides the point. Look at the rest of his behavior please.

[Toaster Strudel]

Not going to waste a lynch on his bitch ass. Maybe we will get lucky and have him vigged tonight.

I'd rather lynch scum like Quagmire, personally, than hope he's vigged.

Let's lynch Quagmire already, and hope that some other nuisance player gets vigged. God knows there are plenty to choose from. Hey! Maybe I'll be vigged!

People, hear ye, hear ye!

If you're too chicken to lynch a player, mafia is not your game.

[Toaster Strudel]

Why don't you guys have me prodded when you get your act together and say, get a claim (hey, that would be really original in this game), or maybe a wagon that every player doesn't derail.

And maybe then I'll pop in and ask the mod for a 6 month extension.

*cries like a baby*

[Toaster Strudel]

My experience in this game is that people that give the town a hard time about claiming are almost always scum.

[...]he was careful not to link himself to other players beyond policy-voting me, following MoS and trying to intimidate Bookitty a little [...]

Look at how he wasted 30+ pages policy voting, didn't claim earlier at lynch -1, refused to answer questions even from his friend Yosarian, stubbornly refused to cooperate, try to find scum, and actually play the game in a manner that HELPS the town. He only recently switched his vote from me to Bookitty to intimidate her, in my opinion, because Bookitty was using her brain, and Quagmire wets his bed every time he has to deal with a player that is able to think.

Nine excellent reasons to lynch Quagmire:

(1) Jerked town around about role PM business.
(2) Needed to be at lynch minus 1 to allegedly read it.
(3) Has done absolutely nothing pro-town.
(4) Sabotaged all attempts for us to evaluate his alignment.
(5) His current strategy is to make sure he cannot be linked to any other player but one.
(6) Stubbornly policy voting a single player while denying it.
(7) Categorically refuses to answer questions - even from Yosarian who defended him earlier.
(8) This lynch will be informative of the alignment of the players that defended him, ie Yosarian, MoS and hasdfas.

(9) To completely refuse to involve oneself in the game in any capacity beyond a wholly useless policy vote, is thoroughly scummy.

That's the kind of thing a mafiosi might do in order not to compromise his buddies and leave no hints leading to them.

unvote, vote: Quagmire

- not for pressure, but for lynching.

I submit this quote as evidence that Quagmire is continuing to policy lynch or is at the very least completely blindsided:

Although I would like to add that I'm glad you're leaving. I hope you leave the site for good.

I submit this quote as evidence that Quagmire continues to refuse to participate, after alledgedly reading his role PM:

I'm not going to claim anytime soon. This conversation is worthless. Stop trying to "lead discussion" somewhere, because it's not going to go anywhere. I'm not going to claim anytime soon. This conversation is worthless. Stop trying to "lead discussion" somewhere, because it's not going to go anywhere. [...] Lynching me would be stupid. I'm on the town's side. Toaster Strudel is mafia, from what I've gathered. That's all that I'm going to say.

I feel like I should be saying something right now because the discussion is on me. However, I'll refrain unless people have any specific questions into my behavior becaues this argument is between Yos2 and TS.

I refuse to do anything that you request me to do [...]

Nothing else is worth talking about at the moment. Nobody else has come up with a convincing argument to sway me and nothing's made me change my mind about what I think. So, until then, I have nothing additional to say.[...]Otherwise, you're just going to hear me say, "I don't have anything to say," if everyone continues trying to badger me about my thoughts on every single person in the game.

Paradoxically, Quagmire berates schismatized for non-contribution:

The burden of proof lies with the person making the assertion.

yeah but in a game with so little proof is this still relevant?

Start contributing please

[Toaster Strudel]

Peers claimed vanilla.

Ah yeah, I forgot. It's been so long.

That's a very poor strategic choice of a claim for a scum, on Day 1, if you think about it. He's still in my scum list for other reasons though.

[Toaster Strudel]

EBWOP: The post above with all the self quoting is in response to Quagmire asking for evidence, but of course, like the scum that he is, he doesn't need to bother reading the game, so he didn't notice all the evidence I posted previously.

So now I remind him of it with a mega re-post.

[Toaster Strudel]

I often refuse to claim when pro-town.

Show me the game(s). Like I said. I MY EXPERIENCE - whenever getting a claim from a player was like pulling a tiger's teeth... the player was SCUM. So it's become my habit to really push for the lynch of players that really don't want to claim. And since they've all turned up scum, I'm not about to give up on the practice.

I don't really feel like I have any information on quagmire that gives me a handle on his alignment at this moment.

Read, Yoscum, read: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 179#890179

That fact ITSELF is probably a small scum tell, but all in all, I think there are others who would be a better lynch today.

Yes, one heck of a good lynch would be YOU, Yosarian2. Too bad I'm the only one to see how scummy you are.

Besides, are you even suggseting that we should lynch a player before we all end up in the old age home? Noooooo! A lynch in this game? Never!

At least Quag isn't lurking as badly as some are.

After 40 pages, are you obliquely suggesting we are such losers that we should go on a lurker hunt? Are you suggesting that a monkey typing random gibberish is too valuable to lynch is this wretched, indecisive, wagon derailing mess of a game? I hope not. Please tell me you're not.

(shrug)

You really shrug a lot in this game, you uncommittal wagon derailing squirming shrugging scumbag.

[Toaster Strudel]

I don't really feel like I have any information on quagmire that gives me a handle on his alignment at this moment. That fact ITSELF is probably a small scum tell[...]

Thank you for pointing out your own scumtells.

Will it be more, or less, of a scumtell if Quagmire turns up scum?

[Toaster Strudel]

Peril in Panama, that started about the same time as this game, has only 24 pages, and THEY HAVE ALREADY LYNCHED SOMEONE!!!

OMG the big bad meanies, they lynch players!!! What kind of cruel game are they playing? Somebody toss these truants in Juvenile Detention, and throw away the key!

Hey guys, let's make it official, and start a NO LYNCH WAGON. Let's face it. We're a bunch of wusses.

[Toaster Strudel]

Why are you following that game lol

Lynching envy.

[Toaster Strudel]

I'd rather lynch Panzer, or K-Scope, or some of the other scummy looking lurkers at the moment over him.

FORTY ONE pages of material, and your best idea is to launch a lurker hunt???

Hey Yos, since you're so fond of derailing wagons, and don't seem to have the gumption to start one, why don't you vote for NO LYNCH and be done with it.

[Toaster Strudel]

And it's odd that you call me a lurker every time I don't post for 5 minutes[...]

No, I only noticed that you were selectively lurking when the most recent Quagwagon gathered up some steam. That's different from being a general lurker. It's the timing of your lurking that I noticed with my legendary sharp, paranoid eye.

[Toaster Strudel]

Um, I've been trying to start a bandwagon on K-scope for a while now. What, do I have to print up "lynch kaleidoscope in 08" bumper stickers or something for you to take me seriously?

Kscope is voting for MoS, who has been about as scummy and useless as Quagmire. I can't find fault with Kscope for finding MoS scummy. Of the two I'd vote for MoS first.

The other player you mentioned, Panzer, is also voting, oh coincidence, for MoS too. Hey look at that. You want to lynch players that are voting for MoS. I also can't find fault with Panzer for finding MoS scummy, and I'd also lynch MoS before I'd lynch Panzer.

After you've derailed 41 pages worth of wagons, there's not a whole lot of will to help you in you Kal-is-scum agenda. The case against Kaleidoscope is a weak one, also not helping. The fact that you mentioned Panser before Kaleidoscope, and included "or some of the other scummy looking lurkers" to the lot shows that you're scummy little heart isn't really sincere about wanting to lynch Kal.

You're unlikely to gather 10 votes on such as weak case when we can't even get 5 votes on a player like Quagmire. I'm afraid that, with my native paranoia, I'm going to have to think that you're wagon-shy scum.

[Toaster Strudel]

Um...when I made post 897, and when I posted again two days later in post 972, the Quagmire wagon had exactally the same number of votes. No one else had voted Quagmire between my posts at all. In no, way, shape, or form, was the Quagmire wagon "gathering up steam" during that time period.

We were hotly discussing the matter. You showed up in other games, but failed to appear in this one. Why?

You didn't want to be seen to commit to the wagon one way or another? Just asking.

[Toaster Strudel]

Seriously, Yosarian, why are you pushing to lynch the two players that are voting against MoS?

Do you think that they're both scum bus'ing MoS, scum hiding behind the same off-wagon vote, or townies that genuinely find MoS scummy?

[Toaster Strudel]

Gee...so my top two scum suspects seem to be working together to get MOS lynched. Not sure how that's supposed to UNDERMINE my case against the two of them; if anything, it's another argument for the two of them being linked scum.

When you say "linked scum" do you mean that they are both scum? Why would two scumbags both vote for the same off-wagon player? If Kal and Panzer are both scum, what are the chances that two scumbags are voting for their third buddy, when no one else is voting for that third buddy? I'm not saying it's physically impossible, but highly unlikely.

You don't really believe that the two people on MoS's wagon are both scum, and that MoS is also scum to boot, do you?

If you think that

BOTH

Kal and Panzer are scum... can you imagine how surprised I was to read this:

Not that MOS would be a terrible lynch either.

[Toaster Strudel]

Hey boo, how old are you ? Just like that.

Is this a slam at my posting style?

Next he's going to ask if you have a boyfriend.

I apologize for the interruption, but Boo, am I crazy?

What's up with Yosarian thinking that both MoS voters are (1) scum the both of them and (2) both bus'ing MoS their #3 buddy - so that Yosarian would vote for any of those three, or some anonymous lurker. Anyone but Quagmire, Quagmire is way too precious, we can't spare him.

What's up with that?

[Toaster Strudel]

TS, what happened to lynching hagdafas ?

He started to make sense and make himself useful,l so I got bored persecuting him.

[Toaster Strudel]

TS main point against him is that he may have read his role from the beginning, and truth be told she is pissed that he jerked us around for 40 pages and wants to eliminate him for the sake of the happy times.

Not quite true. Let me repeat:

My experience in this game is that people that give the town a hard time about claiming are almost always scum.

[...]he was careful not to link himself to other players beyond policy-voting me, following MoS and trying to intimidate Bookitty a little [...]

Look at how he wasted 30+ pages policy voting, didn't claim earlier at lynch -1, refused to answer questions even from his friend Yosarian, stubbornly refused to cooperate, try to find scum, and actually play the game in a manner that HELPS the town. He only recently switched his vote from me to Bookitty to intimidate her, in my opinion, because Bookitty was using her brain, and Quagmire wets his bed every time he has to deal with a player that is able to think.

Nine excellent reasons to lynch Quagmire:

(1) Jerked town around about role PM business.
(2) Needed to be at lynch minus 1 to allegedly read it.
(3) Has done absolutely nothing pro-town.
(4) Sabotaged all attempts for us to evaluate his alignment.
(5) His current strategy is to make sure he cannot be linked to any other player but one.
(6) Stubbornly policy voting a single player while denying it.
(7) Categorically refuses to answer questions - even from Yosarian who defended him earlier.
(8) This lynch will be informative of the alignment of the players that defended him, ie Yosarian, MoS and hasdfas.

(9) To completely refuse to involve oneself in the game in any capacity beyond a wholly useless policy vote, is thoroughly scummy.

That's the kind of thing a mafiosi might do in order not to compromise his buddies and leave no hints leading to them.

unvote, vote: Quagmire

- not for pressure, but for lynching.

I submit this quote as evidence that Quagmire is continuing to policy lynch or is at the very least completely blindsided:

Although I would like to add that I'm glad you're leaving. I hope you leave the site for good.

I submit this quote as evidence that Quagmire continues to refuse to participate, after alledgedly reading his role PM:

I'm not going to claim anytime soon. This conversation is worthless. Stop trying to "lead discussion" somewhere, because it's not going to go anywhere. I'm not going to claim anytime soon. This conversation is worthless. Stop trying to "lead discussion" somewhere, because it's not going to go anywhere. [...] Lynching me would be stupid. I'm on the town's side. Toaster Strudel is mafia, from what I've gathered. That's all that I'm going to say.

I feel like I should be saying something right now because the discussion is on me. However, I'll refrain unless people have any specific questions into my behavior becaues this argument is between Yos2 and TS.

I refuse to do anything that you request me to do [...]

Nothing else is worth talking about at the moment. Nobody else has come up with a convincing argument to sway me and nothing's made me change my mind about what I think. So, until then, I have nothing additional to say.[...]Otherwise, you're just going to hear me say, "I don't have anything to say," if everyone continues trying to badger me about my thoughts on every single person in the game.

Paradoxically, Quagmire berates schismatized for non-contribution:

The burden of proof lies with the person making the assertion.

yeah but in a game with so little proof is this still relevant?

Start contributing please

[Toaster Strudel]

I'd support a Peers or Sikario lynch, based on my theory about why Quagmire brought up his role PM at that time. Of the two I prefer to lynch Peers, because on a reread he seems pretty scummy throughout the game.

That doesn't add much, TS.

OK then, Let's do some math. Warning: I am bad at math.

If you think Quagmire brought up the role PM as a distraction from a buddy, and that buddy is either Peers or Sikario... you are assuming that Quagmire AND **one of** Sikario or Peers is scum.

Let's say for the sake of discussion, that Sikario and Peers appear equally scummy and were head to head when Quagmire started with the distraction.

(equation 1) Quagmire + Sikario + Peers = 2/3 scum
(equation 2) Sikario + Peers = 1/2 scum
(Solving for Quagmire) Quagmire = 1 scum

So if you want to test your theory, you're best to vote for Quagmire.

[Toaster Strudel]

I now declare Albert B. Rampage and Bookitty scumband and towife. You may now kiss the bride.

[Toaster Strudel]

So, TS thinks that ABR, Bookitty, Quagmire, and either myself or Sikario are scum? That's four... in a 19-person game... hrm. Sounds plausible.

You must be talking about another game... because this is my

Blanket of Suspicion

Quagmire, YagamiLight, MoS, Peers, Yosarian2, and hasdagas [/quote], but again I'm less sure about hasdagas now.

[Toaster Strudel]

Personally, I think if there's only four scum, then we've got a huge number of vanilla townies. Maybe two power roles at most. I think it's more likely that there's five scum and four power roles. I've been in a six-scum 19-player game, but that was two mafias in a no-cross-kill game, so I don't think we've got that many. Four or five makes the most sense...

Since you're in a mind to speculate, why do you think the name of the game is NEGWLTWWWTKY?

[Toaster Strudel]

I'm glad I have my vote on quag already.

Panzer did post did gem, however, he was voting for MoS at the time.

I did take a look at his contribution in two other games that are ongoing, and he does seem a bit more talkative, and marginally more useful there than he is here.

Mod Prod: Panzerjager

[Toaster Strudel]

Anybody got a fly swatter? I hear sum'thin' abuzzin'

[Toaster Strudel]

Vote Count:

6: Quagmire

(Elmo, Battle Mage, TS, JordanA24, ABR, Bookitty)

3: Kscope

(Zu_Faul, Yosarian2, schismatized)

3: Peers

(YagamiLight, Erg0, hasdgfas)

2: MoS

(Kscope, Panzerjager)

1: Toaster Strudel

(MoS)

1: hasdgfas

(Peers)

1: Setael

(Sir Tornado)

1: ABR

(Setael)

1: Bookitty

(Quagmire)[/b]

Panzer, that was the last votecount.

You're not the first on Quag's wagon.

[Toaster Strudel]

The more obvious assumption is that the reply was subliminally based off the fact that the people attacking him assumed he was lying about not reading his role pm. When you look at it from that point of view, his reply makes perfect sense.

Hahahaha.

[Toaster Strudel]

Today's lynch should be hasdgfas.

unvote; vote: hasdgfas

Unvote, vote hasdgfas

Oh no, guys! We can't be lynching somebody, not in this game!

[Toaster Strudel]

Lynching anyone else provides far less info. However, that's not a good reason to lynch him, especially when some of the players I find scummiest seem to KNOW he'll come up town.

That's debatable. But hey.

Not only that, one of the biggest problems with a person who hasn't read his PM is that it's much harder to make connections or get information if they do turn out to be scum. However, the large bandwagon on him also helped solve that, I think; if he does turn out to be scum, I think we'll get a lot of info from the way his bandwagon went.

This statement made me think yos knows Quag is town. If Quag turns up scum, Yos would look pretty bad so I can't see him saying "if he does turn out to be scum, I think we'll get a lot of info from the way his bandwagon went" unless he KNOWS Quag would come up town.

Ah-ha!!! Someone else see that Yosarian is so scum in this game. Yay!

I don't see any reason why someone would regard not reading one's role PM as a pro-town action and defend it, especially in light of Quagmire's actual actions, which included quoting from another ongoing game in this thread to justify a policy lynch, trailing MoS's logic, and pretty much nothing that was useful to town. Quagmire is wrong, and what he's doing is against the spirit of the game. You, hasdgfas, are defending something that is detrimental to town and that in practice, in this game, was extremely anti-town. And I don't see a good reason for you to do that, unless Quagmire is town, and you are scum buddying up.

Yosarian did the same thing.

[Toaster Strudel]

If he comes up town, then the people who irrationally kept pushing his lynch beyond the point where it seems logical to do so (to me, anyway) would look bad.

If he comes up scum, then the people who opposed my initial attempts to pressure him into reading his role PM will look bad (which, if I remember correctly was mostly MOS and hasdgfas). I wasn't really thinking in terms of how anything would make me look.

Interesting. No matter how Quagmire comes up, you'll be smelling like roses?

OK. Let me translate from Yosarianese to English.

(1) If Quagmire comes up town, you're hoping I'm going to look bad, because, in your scumpinion, you think that I'm pushing his lynch irrationally.

(2) If Quagmire comes up scum, MoS and hasdagas are going to look bad because they opposed your pressure to get Quagmire to read his PM? Ain't that a blast... Because MoS, hasdagas, and YOU (which you conveniently forgot to mention) are the three players that defended Quagmire tooth and nail!

I tell you, the truth is the opposite of what you say.

(1) If Quagmire comes up town, MoS and hasdagas and YOU are going to look bad because you three defended him irrationally, since he is, best case scenario, and I think we have a concensus on this, a totally worthless player. That means that you old scumbags all knew he was town.

(2) If Quagmire comes up scum, actually... it's going to look like I not only bus'ed him, but tied in up to railway sleepers in front of an oncoming train.

[Toaster Strudel]

DGB's logic in the post about Yos2 and Has being scum because they were defending a scumbudy, so we should lynch them instead of Quag is HORRIBLE.

I am voting for Quag. What game are you referring to? Can't be this one.

[Toaster Strudel]

Or, in other words, I was the first person to protest Quagmire not reading his role PM, I attacked him the hardest for it and led the campaign to force him to either read his PM or be lynched.

Big deal: you said that you voted him for PRESSURE and that you'd go back to voting for MoS the second Quagmire posted that he read his PM, no claim necessary! I give you no credit for "going after" Quagmire.

So, no, I never said that "quagmire not reading his PM is a pro-town action", I very loudly and very cleary said the exact opposite of that.

I didn't say that you said "quagmire not reading his PM is a pro-town action" - where do you get that? You defended Quagmire AFTER that, requiring no proof that he had read his PM, and arguing against anyone that thought he was scummy for his actions after allegedly reading his PM.

[Toaster Strudel]

How many votes on me is that?

I'm counting 4 votes for you, and 4 votes for Quagmire.

Phew! I thought we were close to lynching someone... god forbid! It's too soon... only 43 pages!

[Toaster Strudel]

Since you're in a mind to speculate, why do you think the name of the game is NEGWLTWWWTKY?

.... Mod fell asleep on his keyboard while naming the game?

Think harder.

(1) If Quagmire comes up town, you're hoping I'm going to look bad, because, in your scumpinion, you think that I'm pushing his lynch irrationally.

If Quagmire comes up town, then yes, you look bad. Deal with it.

That's a risk I'm willing to take.

Why do you play mafia, Quag, if you hate it so much?

I don't. I hate this game.

How about, instead of a lynch, we euthanize Quagmire? Let's be merciful and put him out of his misery.

Lethal Injection: Quagmire

[Toaster Strudel]

TS, please summarize a case on why quag is scum, including quotes or at least post numbers for evidence.

Sure!

My experience in this game is that people that give the town a hard time about claiming are almost always scum.

[...]he was careful not to link himself to other players beyond policy-voting me, following MoS and trying to intimidate Bookitty a little [...]

Look at how he wasted 30+ pages policy voting, didn't claim earlier at lynch -1, refused to answer questions even from his friend Yosarian, stubbornly refused to cooperate, try to find scum, and actually play the game in a manner that HELPS the town. He only recently switched his vote from me to Bookitty to intimidate her, in my opinion, because Bookitty was using her brain, and Quagmire wets his bed every time he has to deal with a player that is able to think.

Nine excellent reasons to lynch Quagmire:

(1) Jerked town around about role PM business.
(2) Needed to be at lynch minus 1 to allegedly read it.
(3) Has done absolutely nothing pro-town.
(4) Sabotaged all attempts for us to evaluate his alignment.
(5) His current strategy is to make sure he cannot be linked to any other player but one.
(6) Stubbornly policy voting a single player while denying it.
(7) Categorically refuses to answer questions - even from Yosarian who defended him earlier.
(8) This lynch will be informative of the alignment of the players that defended him, ie Yosarian, MoS and hasdfas.

(9) To completely refuse to involve oneself in the game in any capacity beyond a wholly useless policy vote, is thoroughly scummy.

That's the kind of thing a mafiosi might do in order not to compromise his buddies and leave no hints leading to them.

unvote, vote: Quagmire

- not for pressure, but for lynching.

I submit this quote as evidence that Quagmire is continuing to policy lynch or is at the very least completely blindsided:

Although I would like to add that I'm glad you're leaving. I hope you leave the site for good.

I submit this quote as evidence that Quagmire continues to refuse to participate, after alledgedly reading his role PM:

I'm not going to claim anytime soon. This conversation is worthless. Stop trying to "lead discussion" somewhere, because it's not going to go anywhere. I'm not going to claim anytime soon. This conversation is worthless. Stop trying to "lead discussion" somewhere, because it's not going to go anywhere. [...] Lynching me would be stupid. I'm on the town's side. Toaster Strudel is mafia, from what I've gathered. That's all that I'm going to say.

I feel like I should be saying something right now because the discussion is on me. However, I'll refrain unless people have any specific questions into my behavior becaues this argument is between Yos2 and TS.

I refuse to do anything that you request me to do [...]

Nothing else is worth talking about at the moment. Nobody else has come up with a convincing argument to sway me and nothing's made me change my mind about what I think. So, until then, I have nothing additional to say.[...]Otherwise, you're just going to hear me say, "I don't have anything to say," if everyone continues trying to badger me about my thoughts on every single person in the game.

Paradoxically, Quagmire berates schismatized for non-contribution:

The burden of proof lies with the person making the assertion.

yeah but in a game with so little proof is this still relevant?

Start contributing please

[Toaster Strudel]

Why do you play mafia, Quag, if you hate it so much?

I don't

. I hate this game.

Bizarrely, he's admitting that he IS NOT PLAYING the game. When he says "I hate this game" I can't help but think he doesn't like to be caught scum.

This is his defense:

Neither of these two are evidence that I'm not playing the game. In fact,

the latter is evidence that I am playing the game

, because it says that I don't need to talk until I have something to say. Which, if you'll note, I do talk. I do have things to say.

So he's admitted he's not playing the game, but then he's saying his behavior is evidence that he's actually playing the game.

He's jerking us around.

[Toaster Strudel]

And... he has no defense. This is it, basically:

The problem is, I'm apathetic to mafia now more than ever so I find no desire to allocate my resources in actually playing the game. Some of you are the worst mafia players in the world. I hate this game. I'm not even going to respond to this one. It's just too retarded [...] I don't want to answer stupid questions that other people bring up just so they can "evaluate my alignment [...] This game is really frustrating me. I'm really tempted to pull a Shea and just flake out because I'm mad. Sorry, but...are you stupid?

hahahahahaha too bad i'm town!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

^^^^^
Quagmire quotes assembled for comedic effect.

[Toaster Strudel]

I'd just like to list the players that have defended Quagmire:

YagamiLight, MoS, Peers, Yosarian2, and hasdagas

[Toaster Strudel]

Why do you play mafia, Quag, if you hate it so much?

I'm not joining any more games anymore. I'm taking a break for awhile once the games that I'm in finish.

Early retirement offer: Quagmire

[Toaster Strudel]

I'd just like to list the players that have defended Quagmire:
YagamiLight, MoS, Peers, Yosarian2, and hasdagas

... wait... where the hell did I defend Quagmire? I'm the one who's been saying that we have no proof he actually read his PM, and even if he claims, we don't a reason to believe him... now you say I'm defending him?

I have looked back at your posts, and I have to admit... I can't seem to find where I got that impression. Apologies.

[Toaster Strudel]

Oh wow. You think that it is more ethical to stay in a game than request replacement ?

Yes. I'd be doing a disservice to the moderator if I decided to flake out of a game because it was frustrating me.
I will claim my role -- I don't want to at all, but I will -- no earlier than 5 days before the deadline. I highly suggest that we lynch Bookitty instead.

You rather waste 20+ people's time for weeks than 1 minute of a moderator's
time to do his job. Noted.

He doesn't want to let his buddies down. It's going to look bad if he requests a replacement in the middle of being caught Day 1.

[Toaster Strudel]

And I'd like to note that she said, "sabotaged

all

attempts," of which I've done nothing of the sort.

Spray Raid: Quagmire

[Toaster Strudel]

Scum would definitely be motivated to push the Quag wagon (easy lynch especially with TS tunneling like this)

There's no such thing as an easy lynch in this game.

46 pages, 23 wagons, Day 1.

Look at Mafia 69
63 page,

Day 7

[Toaster Strudel]

Yos, what do you think of the case on hasdfgas?

Well, as far as I can tell, the best point that was raised against Hasdfgas was that he defended Quagmire in a kind of wierd way, going as far as to say that him not reading his role PM was somehow pro-town. However, that's really only a valid scumtell in my mind if Quagmire does turn out to be scum.

Mmm... I wonder, how could we find out Quagmire's alignment.... mmmm.... I'm thinking... oh yeah! Got it!

Reveal alignment: Quagmire

- we're way too wimpy to lynch anybody, that's the best we can hope for.

[Toaster Strudel]

I think SirTornado ought to be replaced. He's only made one vote the whole game.

[Toaster Strudel]

I think SirTornado ought to be replaced. He's only made one vote the whole game.

EBWOP: one vote, one post!

[Toaster Strudel]

This game is in danger of becoming a bilateral argument about Quagmire. TS, I think you need to accept that you're not going to change anyone's mind with further discussion on this point.

You're right. We have to keep this valuable player in the game. I changed my mind. I see the light.

unvote. vote: Bugs Bunny for President

[Toaster Strudel]

One could almost make the connection that you are purposefully pursuing this crusade against Quagmire to keep the town from actually finding scum today.

You're saying that like you know Quagmire's alignment. But I'm probably just paranoid as usual. I'm just going pretend I didn't notice.

[Toaster Strudel]

Quagmire is not the reason I am in this game. He is a dumb kid behind a computer. Let's get to lynching hasd.

I have a better idea.

unvote, vote: MoS

[Toaster Strudel]

So now everyone can breathe a sigh of relief, because, having unvoted, our beloved Quagmire will be there again tomorrow to continue not playing the game and hating it.

Unofficial votecount for extra excitement:

Vote Count of no lynch ever:

4: Kscope

(Zu_Faul, Yosarian2, schismatized, MoS)

4: MoS

(Kscope, Panzerjager, IH, ToasterStrudel)

3: hasdgfas

(Peers, ABR, Bookitty)

3: Peers

(YagamiLight, Erg0, hasdgfas)

2: Quagmire

(Battle Mage, JordanA24)

1: Setael

(Sir Tornado)

1: Bookitty

(Quagmire)

1: JordanA24

(Setael)

[Toaster Strudel]

Bookitty, what do you think of Jordan? Any merit to my case?TS, same question for you.

Sorta, but there are way more candidates out there that I'd vote for before I'd vote for Jordan.

Namely, MoS, Yosarian2, YagamiLight, and Peers, for starters, and pretty much in that order.

[Toaster Strudel]

Unofficial "Let's Save the Quagmires" votecount

4: Kscope

(Zu_Faul, Yosarian2, schismatized, MoS)

4: MoS

(Kscope, Panzerjager, IH, ToasterStrudel)

4: Peers

(YagamiLight, Erg0, hasdgfas, Bookitty)

2: hasdgfas

(Peers, ABR)

2: Quagmire

(Battle Mage, JordanA24)

1: Setael

(Sir Tornado)

1: Bookitty

(Quagmire)

1: JordanA24

(Setael)

[Toaster Strudel]

Interesting.

Before Panzer's unvote and vote:

4: Kscope

(Zu_Faul, Yosarian2, schismatized, MoS)

4: MoS

(Kscope, Panzerjager, IH, ToasterStrudel)

4: Peers

(YagamiLight, Erg0, hasdgfas, Bookitty)

2: hasdgfas

(Peers, ABR)

2: Quagmire

(Battle Mage, JordanA24)

1: Setael

(Sir Tornado)

1: Bookitty

(Quagmire)

1: JordanA24

(Setael)

After Panzer's unvote and vote:

5: Peers

(YagamiLight, Erg0, hasdgfas, Bookitty, Panzerjager)

4: Kscope

(Zu_Faul, Yosarian2, schismatized, MoS)

3: MoS

(Kscope, IH, ToasterStrudel)

2: hasdgfas

(Peers, ABR)

2: Quagmire

(Battle Mage, JordanA24)

1: Setael

(Sir Tornado)

1: Bookitty

(Quagmire)

1: JordanA24

(Setael)

Quite a shift in the snail race.

[Toaster Strudel]

...the logical conclusion is that TS voted me to set me up for the "pattern" she suddenly discovered, since it was obvious Panzer would unvote me in the near future.

Haha. A lot of people say I'm crazy, but it's the first time someone hints that I might have psychic powers!

[Toaster Strudel]

WOW, what's ABR doing all alone in the caboose?

5: Peers

(YagamiLight, Erg0, hasdgfas, Bookitty, Panzerjager)

4: Kscope

(Zu_Faul, Yosarian2, schismatized, MoS)

4: MoS

(Kscope, IH, ToasterStrudel, Peers)

2: Quagmire

(Battle Mage, JordanA24)

1: Setael

(Sir Tornado)

1: Bookitty

(Quagmire)

1: JordanA24

(Setael)

1: hasdgfas

(ABR)

[Toaster Strudel]

I'm waiting on Quagmire to claim.

Yes, your vote on hasdagas is putting a lot of pressure on Quagmire! That'll make him claim...

Forget about getting a claim out of Quagmire. We can't risk losing him if he claims scum or something.

[Toaster Strudel]

I'm pleased that I'm

finally

getting my preferred Day 1 wagon for a change. I have a horrible feeling about what's going to happen at -1, though.

You're luckier than I am.

Though I totally agree that Peers has acted scummy, but Peer has already said he's vanilla. Choosing to lynch Peers today is a pretty dumb town strategy.

*sigh*

I'd rather have a claim from Quagmire after all. It is, without the shadow of a doubt, the smarter town move, even though everyone here seems to be of the opinion that Quagmire is the top contender for the MVP trophee.

unvote, vote: Quagmire

[Toaster Strudel]

Jordan's still scum, but we need a lynch in this game.

unvote, vote: Peers

I looked at your posts, Setael. Can you point out where you expressed suspicion of Peers earlier on?

I must have missed it, because as far as I can see, in all of your posts, there is no hint that you suspect Peers anywhere.

[Toaster Strudel]

TS, if neither Quagmire nor MoS are scum, who is your next suspect?

Yosarian, YagamiLight (who no one seems to notice) and now, Setael. Not necessarily in that order. But these are the 3 non-Mos/Quag players I'd lynch.

Do you think Yosarian and hasdgfas are more likely scum if Quagmire does turn out to be town?

I think Yosarian is more likely scum, because maybe he wanted to buddy to read his PM real bad. Maybe. I am beginning to suspect that hasdgfas really didn't understand what was going on. But I may be wrong.

If you think we need to lynch someone as soon as possible (which I think you've implied) do you think that there is any consensus to lynch Quagmire at this point?

There ought to be.

Do you find Peers scummy?

Not enough for me to put my add my name to his lynch.

[Toaster Strudel]

TS, if neither Quagmire nor MoS are scum, who is your next suspect?

Yosarian, YagamiLight (who no one seems to notice) and now, Setael. Not necessarily in that order. But these are the 3 non-Mos/Quag players I'd lynch.

Do you think Yosarian and hasdgfas are more likely scum if Quagmire does turn out to be town?

I think Yosarian is more likely scum, because maybe he wanted to buddy to read his PM real bad. Maybe. I am beginning to suspect that hasdgfas really didn't understand what was going on. But I may be wrong.

If you think we need to lynch someone as soon as possible (which I think you've implied) do you think that there is any consensus to lynch Quagmire at this point?

There ought to be.

Do you find Peers scummy?

Not enough for me to put my add my name to his lynch.

[Toaster Strudel]

Sorry about the double post, my computer hung.

The point that he's going for the easist lynch. It's no longer quag, so... BACK TO PEERS.

Hey IH, who's "he" in this sentence? Seems like you'd be referring to me, but I was never in support of the quag lynch, so I'm not really following.

I was always wondering why you tried to start a wagon on a "dark horse" like Jordan, and I often feel that scum likes to hide behind off-wagon votes. You'll often find, at lynch time, one scum being the single vote on his buddy. So I tend to watch the off-wagon votes, too, but it's a little iffy, I reckon.

I also noted that most of your case against Jordan was because you didn't approve of Jordan's "opportunistic" vote on Quagmire.

Since I was watching your vote closely, I noticed that when you changed it, of all the people you could have picked in order to lynch someone, you could pick from:

5: Peers (YagamiLight, Erg0, hasdgfas, Bookitty, Panzerjager)
4: Kscope (Zu_Faul, Yosarian2, schismatized, MoS)
4: MoS (Kscope, IH, ToasterStrudel, Peers)

You never expressed suspicion of Peers at all.
You defended MoS.
You said this about Kscope: "I haven't said a thing about Kscope, but I'd also vote him if he was in the lead."

Kscope was a good choice for you, he had already 4 votes. But you chose to vote for Peers, who had only a margin of one vote over Kscope.

[Toaster Strudel]

I think Yosarian is more likely scum, because maybe he wanted to buddy to read his PM real bad. Maybe. I am beginning to suspect that hasdgfas really didn't understand what was going on. But I may be wrong.

If Quagmire is town, then Yosarian has no vested interest in having him read his role PM other than the same one all of us do, that it's not helpful to town for Quagmire not to read his role PM.

You're right. I am incorrect. If Quagmire is town, then Yosarian would more likely be scum, because he defended him materially, but no very forcefully. What I was thinking is that they may both be scum, and that distracted me from the possibility that either one would be town...

So I'm not following your logic here. It's less likely they're all scum defending their buddy, not more likely, in my view. I think there's likely scum somewhere in the mix we mentioned, and maybe it is Quagmire, but do you really think that his scumbuddies all rushed to his defense THAT obviously?

Lemme think.

Again, one of the least conspicuous defenders is Yosarian2. He certainly wasn't bus'ing Quagmire. He just gently derailed his wagon. Yosarian might have defended a buddy discretely, or defended a townie in the same way - but as a scum, not as town. So I guess I'd have to say that Yosarian's behavior was scummy, regardless of what might be revealed of Quagmire's alignment.

The same is true for MoS. His behavior with Quagmire fits more under the category of scum than town just like Yosarian's - again regarless of Quagmire's alignment.

Now that I think about it, the mere fact that they defended such idiocy points to them being scum knowing that Quagmire may be town. But then again, Quagmire's play (or as he admits, non-play) is so against the town, that he might be scum anyway...

Hasdagas was perhaps a little too conspicious to be buddies with Quagmire, but not too conspicious to be scum rushing to a townie's defense.

That's why my vote was on MoS, before I switched to Quagmire again. Unfortunately, the tide is favoring MoS.

I do think knowing Quagmire's alignment will help clarify things tomorrow, but that an MoS lynch has a better chance of hitting scum.

I hope I make more sense now.

[Toaster Strudel]

Unvote vote Peers

Don't insult Setael kthx.

How is your QUAGMIRE CLAIM project going? Abandoned?

[Toaster Strudel]

That post was in jest as well. It seems my sense of humor fails to deliver, today...

I got it, and I was going to go along with it if it got Quagmire within lynching range.

We already have Peer's claim.

[Toaster Strudel]

EBWOP: I meant, if it got Quagmire to

claim

, I just can't hide my true feelings, haha.

I hope you guys are right about Peers, I'm not feeling that wagon, and I don't think it'll be hugely informative. Sorry.

[Toaster Strudel]

Are you asking me whether I'd prefer to have Peers or Quagmire at endgame?

Mmmm.... mmmm... hmmm... let me think... eenie-meeni-minie-mo...

[Toaster Strudel]

[Toaster Strudel]

Just kidding.

[Toaster Strudel]

I hope you don't expect me to speak only in my name...

Hey - do you want to switch to Quagmire, or should I switch to MoS?

[Toaster Strudel]

How ironic. You complain about TS being baited and provoked and made angry every second, yet you persist in baiting, provoking, and making me angry just as much as anyone is doing with TS.

Please show where Bookitty is "baiting" and "provoking" you. You may or may not agree with her points, but Bookitty is a cool cucumber and is not baiting or provoking anyone.

as is TS. She is trying to continue this trend of vendetta voting instead of ending it [...]

No hostility meant, MoS, but you're scum in this game.

The same is true for MoS. His behavior with Quagmire fits more under the category of scum than town just like Yosarian's - again regarless of Quagmire's alignment.

Explain this. This is nothing more than an unfounded conclusion. What evidence points to me being more likely to do this as scum than town? Do you have a meta read on me?

Simple. For you to defend boneheaded play such as Quagmire's requires you to be (1) scum knowing that Quag is town or (2) defending your buddy.

unvote, vote: MoS

[Toaster Strudel]

UNOFFICIAL Vote Count:

7: Peers*

(YagamiLight**, Erg0, hasdgfas*, Bookitty, Panzerjager, Setael, ABR)

4: Kscope

(Zu_Faul**, Yosarian2***, schismatized, MoS***)

4: MoS***

(Kscope, IH, Peers*, TS)

2: Quagmire***

(Battle Mage, JordanA24)

1: Setael

(Sir Tornado)

1: Bookitty

(Quagmire***)

Just looking at who the people I find scummy are voting for (the asterisks), I would venture that there might be a lot of scum on the Kscope wagon. Time will tell. Since Kscope hasn't really done anything that truly stands out, especially compared to the more obvious scum on the roster, it smells of bus'ing. It smells like a fish gutting plant.

unvote, vote: Kscope

- because when I see scum throwing their buddies under the bus, I like to help with a kick.

There, that's better.

UNOFFICIAL Vote Count:

7: Peers*

(YagamiLight**, Erg0, hasdgfas*, Bookitty, Panzerjager, Setael, ABR)

5: Kscope

(Zu_Faul**, Yosarian2***, schismatized, MoS***, TS)

3: MoS***

(Kscope, IH, Peers*)

2: Quagmire***

(Battle Mage, JordanA24)

1: Setael

(Sir Tornado)

1: Bookitty

(Quagmire***)