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Post Post #5 (isolation #0) » Fri Aug 26, 2016 1:13 am

Post by podoboq »

Hey everybody. I'll let you know right off the bat, I do not trust myself to balance a normal yet. Less than a year site experience, and only one actually normal game (I like role madness), so I was jumping in under the assumption that my setup would need a lot of work.

As such, I kinda just wanted to get something rough out there, that encapsulates a lot of the ideas I wanted to use. Please, help me rip this apart and turn it into something I can actually run!
In post 2, Antihero wrote:> the two town ascetics are comically, over-the-top neg utility. even forgetting about the probable "counterclaim" war that's going to happen, it's two townies that can't be confirmed by the (already gated by the odd-night modifier) cop and can't be protected by the jk
I want the two town ascetics to balance out strong town power. So I would rather up the power of town, or lower the power of scum to justify the inclusion of two ascetics, instead of removing them altogether. Definitely the part of the game I wanted to play with the most.

You say that even a game with all mafia goons would favor scum with this setup. How much do we fix by removing the mafia jailkeeper (turn it into mafia goon), and making the cop each night? Does that leave it scum-sided.
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Post Post #6 (isolation #1) » Fri Aug 26, 2016 1:23 am

Post by podoboq »

In post 2, Antihero wrote:> the results you gave for the scum "neapolitan" are actually results a vanilla cop would get. neapolitans get results in the form of "vanilla townie" or "not vanilla townie"
Understood. I was misunderstanding what "vanilla" meant in context, and didn't understand that mafia goons and serial killer technically return vanilla to a vanilla cop. I will update the role PM so that it's accurate to Neapolitan.
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Post Post #9 (isolation #2) » Fri Aug 26, 2016 3:19 am

Post by podoboq »

In post 8, Antihero wrote:
In post 5, podoboq wrote:You say that even a game with all mafia goons would favor scum with this setup. How much do we fix by removing the mafia jailkeeper (turn it into mafia goon), and making the cop each night? Does that leave it scum-sided.
'mkay so if you're leaving the scum neapolitan you've got

2 goons, 1 neapolitan
vs
1 cop, 1 deputy, 1 jailkeeper, 1 motion detector, 2 ascetic, 4 vt

since there's as many PRs as VTs, that means the neapolitan is going to be finding PRs pretty frequently

in general you want 3 decent PRs. cop and jailkeeper are decent, deputy is middling. i'd do something else with that motion detector. that role's only useful in very specific situations (1 scum alive gives them potential for definitive clears)
I'm not married to the neapolitan. I want some kind of investigative role that gets an odd result from an Ascetic, and that was the first one that came to mind. I'm very open to changing it.

Gonna go look for a better town PR to add in. I'm definitely happy changing the cop to be all-nights.
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Post Post #10 (isolation #3) » Fri Aug 26, 2016 3:23 am

Post by podoboq »

How about Tracker instead of Motion Detector? Seems better for town, and doesn't have a very negative interaction with Ascetics (who don't have a night action to track anyway).
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Post Post #12 (isolation #4) » Fri Aug 26, 2016 11:11 am

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In post 11, fferyllt wrote:Wait, I thought the deputy was useless in this setup. Would the deputy inherit the dead jailkeeper's protection?
Deputy is backup cop.
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Post Post #13 (isolation #5) » Fri Aug 26, 2016 11:14 am

Post by podoboq »

However, I have a stupid typo in my role pm. It says they inherit the abilities of a "Doctor." Whoops. Will correct that
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Post Post #17 (isolation #6) » Fri Aug 26, 2016 3:44 pm

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In post 16, Cephrir wrote:True. It's hard to work around that.
If I have to sacrifice the idea of two ascetics in a game this small in order to make the game normal (in the everyday sense), I'm open to doing that. I've also considered the possibility of giving the ascetic modifier to one of the town PRs instead, but it somewhat stifles the reason I wanted to have two ascetics in the first place.
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Post Post #21 (isolation #7) » Fri Aug 26, 2016 4:12 pm

Post by podoboq »

Alright, so right now we're looking at the setup as 4x Vanilla Townie, 2x Ascetic Townie, 1x Town Tracker, 1x Town Jailkeeper, 1x Town Cop, 1x Town Deputy, 2x Mafia Goon, and 1x Mafia Neapolitan.
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Post Post #23 (isolation #8) » Sun Aug 28, 2016 9:32 am

Post by podoboq »

In post 22, fferyllt wrote:Anecdotal story and all, but my second micro game at ms had 2 millers who claimed in their first posts. We didn't lynch either of them.

I really like the 2x ascetic aspect of the setup.
I'm glad you like it. I'm really excited to run it :)

Let me know if there's anything else I need to do to work on this setup. If I get the all clear (or if I just get bored), I'll start updating all of my assets.
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Post Post #25 (isolation #9) » Mon Aug 29, 2016 2:19 am

Post by podoboq »

Welcome to Mini Normal #____!

You are a
Town Tracker
.

Abilities:

-During the day phase, you may vote and post as normal.
-During each night phase, you may choose another player. You will be told who that player visited that night, but not what action they performed. Your results will come in the form of “Your target visited [PLAYER],” or “Your target did not visit anybody.”

Win Condition:

You win when all threats have been eliminated and there is at least one town-aligned player alive.

Respond by PM with your role to confirm. The game will begin when at least 10 players have confirmed. You can find the game thread here.


I also corrected the Neapolitan to give results in the form of “Your target is a Vanilla Townie” or “Your target is not a Vanilla Townie”, fixed the Deputy to say that it replaces a COP, and removed the odd-night restriction from the Cop.
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Post Post #26 (isolation #10) » Mon Aug 29, 2016 5:08 am

Post by podoboq »

Since this is my first time modding, it'd be much appreciated if anyone would also take a look at my opening posts to check to make sure nothing's weird. For example, the first posts ends with a simple "The mafia team has day and night chat." I've heard that in normal games, it has to be explicitly stated beforehand whether or not the mafia team has day chat, and I wasn't sure where to put that information.

Also, the way I word my scum win condition: "
You win when members of your faction are the only living players, or nothing plausible can prevent this outcome.
" I just wanted to make sure the spirit of that and the wording on it were kosher. If there is a living town jailkeeper vs a single member of mafia, they can't endgame the jailkeeper. It would end in a draw.
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Post Post #28 (isolation #11) » Tue Aug 30, 2016 1:03 am

Post by podoboq »

In post 27, fferyllt wrote:In normal games, once parity is achieved or nothing can prevent parity, the game is over. I read a rationale on the ms wiki a long time ago, but I'm not sure if it's withstood all the edits over the years. Once parity is achieved, the mafia simply overwhelms town with superior firepower.

If a 3p lylo were to end with the last mafia player and the jailkeeper alive at the lynch, the game would end with a mafia win.
So unless I'm misunderstanding something, that would make the scum win condition I wanted to use not normal. Is it possible to use this win condition for scum regardless, as long as it's made explicit at game start, or for the sake of normalcy should I just conform on this?
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Post Post #32 (isolation #12) » Tue Aug 30, 2016 8:45 am

Post by podoboq »

In post 31, Cephrir wrote:I'd be cool with a mini-roleblocker or full rolecop. Cop-deputy is quite strong.
One-shot Mafia Jailkeeper? Two-shot? Something different entirely?
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Post Post #34 (isolation #13) » Tue Aug 30, 2016 9:14 am

Post by podoboq »

In post 33, fferyllt wrote:No, I think you need to keep the full jailkeeper if you have cop plus deputy.

upping the neopolitan to a full rolecop sounds good to me.
I was talking about upgrading a Mafia Goon into a 1-shot Mafia Jailkeeper (or similar).
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Post Post #36 (isolation #14) » Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:15 pm

Post by podoboq »

Ah, sorry for the confusion. We were moving forward from this setup.
In post 21, podoboq wrote:Alright, so right now we're looking at the setup as 4x Vanilla Townie, 2x Ascetic Townie, 1x Town Tracker, 1x Town Jailkeeper, 1x Town Cop, 1x Town Deputy, 2x Mafia Goon, and 1x Mafia Neapolitan.
You're saying that upgrading a mafia goon back into a full jailkeeper would be good for you?
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Post Post #38 (isolation #15) » Wed Aug 31, 2016 4:31 am

Post by podoboq »

Welcome to Mini Normal #____!

You are a
Mafia 2-shot Roleblocker
.

Your partners are
(PLAYER)
, who is a
Mafia Neapolitan
, and
(PLAYER)
, who is a
Mafia Jailkeeper
.

Abilities:

-During the day phase, you may vote and post as normal.
-You share a factional PT, located here, where you may talk during day and night.
-You share a factional kill each night. You must choose which of you will commit the kill.

-During the night phase, you may choose another player. That player will not be able to perform any of their night actions that night.

Win Condition:

You win when members of your faction makes up half or more of the living players.


Respond by PM with your role to confirm. The game will begin when at least 10 players have confirmed. You can find the game thread here.

Upgrading a goon. Also, updated win condition.
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Post Post #39 (isolation #16) » Wed Aug 31, 2016 4:33 am

Post by podoboq »

Also, quick question about mafia's night actions. Can a player use more than one action at night? For example, could the roleblocker use their roleblock ability and also commit the factional kill in the same night?
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Post Post #44 (isolation #17) » Wed Aug 31, 2016 5:30 am

Post by podoboq »

In post 43, Cephrir wrote:also we should still have two goons i'm not sure how we got to zero

2 shot rb goon goon
Sorry, that was a typo in that role PM. Scum team should be Goon, Neapolitan, 2-shot RB.
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Post Post #45 (isolation #18) » Wed Aug 31, 2016 5:33 am

Post by podoboq »

4x
Vanilla Townie
, 2x
Ascetic Townie
, 1x
Town Tracker
, 1x
Town Jailkeeper
, 1x
Town Cop
, 1x
Town Deputy
, 1x
Mafia Goon
, 1x
Mafia Neapolitan
, 1x
Mafia Roleblocker
.
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Post Post #48 (isolation #19) » Wed Aug 31, 2016 6:57 am

Post by podoboq »

In post 46, Cephrir wrote:ok but i thought we were turning the neapolitan into an rb
I might have been misunderstanding antihero. I thought he was suggesting the addition of a limited roleblocker, or the substitution of a role cop for Neapolitan.
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Post Post #50 (isolation #20) » Wed Aug 31, 2016 9:09 am

Post by podoboq »

In post 49, fferyllt wrote:
In post 37, Antihero wrote:full jailkeeper's too much

either partial roleblocker (even-night or 2-shot) or a full rolecop as a substitute for the neapolitan would be my advise
Ok. so Mafia 1 goon, 1 neapolitan and 1 partial roleblocker vs Town 1 cop + 1 deputy + 2 ascetics + 1 jailkeeper?

And the tracker is in or out?
Tracker in right now, but obviously that's up to you lot.
In post 45, podoboq wrote:4x
Vanilla Townie
, 2x
Ascetic Townie
, 1x
Town Tracker
, 1x
Town Jailkeeper
, 1x
Town Cop
, 1x
Town Deputy
, 1x
Mafia Goon
, 1x
Mafia Neapolitan
, 1x
2-shot Mafia Roleblocker
.
Also, corrected another typo. In Post 45, I forgot to attach the 2-shot rider.
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Post Post #52 (isolation #21) » Wed Aug 31, 2016 11:03 am

Post by podoboq »

In post 42, Cephrir wrote:
In post 40, Antihero wrote:
In post 39, podoboq wrote:Also, quick question about mafia's night actions. Can a player use more than one action at night? For example, could the roleblocker use their roleblock ability and also commit the factional kill in the same night?
usually, yes but this is the mod's call

regardless you should say this somewhere in the thread
the rules would be good! :]
Updating the rules. I'll roll this into the same passage that states that mafia has day and night chat.
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Post Post #54 (isolation #22) » Wed Aug 31, 2016 2:56 pm

Post by podoboq »

In post 53, Antihero wrote:yeah i was suggesting the roleblocker in lieu of the neapolitan

i definitely wouldn't put in a blocker and then take out the tracker

just so we're clear, my suggested setup is

4x Vanilla Townie, 2x Ascetic Townie, 1x Town Tracker, 1x Town Jailkeeper, 1x Town Cop, 1x Town Deputy, 2x Mafia Goon, 1x 2-shot Mafia Roleblocker
Hmmm. Yeah, I'd rather have Rolecop than a Roleblocker. I definitely want the scum team to have some kind of investigative role.
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Post Post #57 (isolation #23) » Fri Sep 02, 2016 12:19 am

Post by podoboq »

So...is Neapolitan, 2-shot Roleblocker, and one Mafia Goon a better balanced setup for the scum team than Rolecop and two Mafia Goons?
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Post Post #60 (isolation #24) » Mon Sep 05, 2016 9:09 am

Post by podoboq »

So is this the point where I suggest ways to balance it and wait for an OK, or do the three of you tell me how to balance it, until you agree with eachother?

Because I'm getting the feeling that it's really close now, and everyone's kind of on the fence, and I don't want to make a suggestion that pushes us away from how close we are right now.
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Post Post #62 (isolation #25) » Tue Sep 06, 2016 8:34 am

Post by podoboq »

In post 61, Antihero wrote:i'd sign off on it as it is

if you/ffery+ceph are afraid it's townsided, you could scrap the tracker and have neapolitan be scum sole PR (or an all-goon team) and i would also sign off on that
OK cool, thanks. I'm OK with it as is, and I'm fine with the other suggested setup if this is decided to be too town-sided.
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Post Post #65 (isolation #26) » Tue Sep 06, 2016 11:29 am

Post by podoboq »

Sad. My preference was the former. Still, more than happy to get approval on a setup.

5x
Vanilla Townie
, 2x
Ascetic Townie
, 1x
Town Jailkeeper
, 1x
Town Cop
, 1x
Town Deputy
, 2x
Mafia Goon
, 1x
Mafia Neapolitan
.

So to clarify, this is the setup that I have approval on, correct?
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Post Post #72 (isolation #27) » Wed Sep 07, 2016 3:55 am

Post by podoboq »

Final setup:
In post 65, podoboq wrote:5x
Vanilla Townie
, 2x
Town Ascetic
, 1x
Town Jailkeeper
, 1x
Town Cop
, 1x
Town Deputy
, 2x
Mafia Goon
, 1x
Mafia Neapolitan
.
Role PMs:
Spoiler: Vanilla Townie
Welcome to Mini Normal #____!

You are a
Vanilla Townie
.

Abilities:

-During the day phase, you may vote and post as normal.

Win Condition:

You win when all threats have been eliminated and there is at least one town-aligned player alive.


Respond by PM with your role to confirm. The game will begin when at least 10 players have confirmed. You can find the game thread here.


Spoiler: Town Ascetic
Welcome to Mini Normal #____!

You are an
Ascetic Townie
.

Abilities:

-During the day phase, you may vote and post as normal.
-During the night phase, any actions which target you are ignored aside from those which would kill you.

Win Condition:

You win when all threats have been eliminated and there is at least one town-aligned player alive.


Respond by PM with your role to confirm. The game will begin when at least 10 players have confirmed. You can find the game thread here.


Spoiler: Town Jailkeeper
Welcome to Mini Normal #____!

You are a
Town Jailkeeper
.

Abilities:

-During the day phase, you may vote and post as normal.
-During the night phase, you may choose another player. That player will not be able to perform any of their night actions, and will also be protected from any incoming attacks that night.

Win Condition:

You win when all threats have been eliminated and there is at least one town-aligned player alive.


Respond by PM with your role to confirm. The game will begin when at least 10 players have confirmed. You can find the game thread here.


Spoiler: Town Cop
Welcome to Mini Normal #____!

You are a
Town Cop
.

Abilities:

-During the day phase, you may vote and post as normal.
-During each night phase, you may choose another player. You will be told if that player is a member of the town team or the mafia team. Your results will come in the form of “Your target is a member of the town,” or “Your target is a member of the mafia.”

Win Condition:

You win when all threats have been eliminated and there is at least one town-aligned player alive.


Respond by PM with your role to confirm. The game will begin when at least 10 players have confirmed. You can find the game thread here.


Spoiler: Town Deputy
Welcome to Mini Normal #____!

You are a
Town Deputy
.

Abilities:

-During the day phase, you may vote and post as normal.
-If a Cop dies, you will gain all of their abilities.

Win Condition:

You win when all threats have been eliminated and there is at least one town-aligned player alive.


Respond by PM with your role to confirm. The game will begin when at least 10 players have confirmed. You can find the game thread here.


Spoiler: Mafia Goon
Welcome to Mini Normal #____!

You are a
Mafia Goon
.

Your partners are
(PLAYER)
, who is a
Mafia Neapolitan
, and
(PLAYER)
, who is a
Mafia Goon
.

Abilities:

-During the day phase, you may vote and post as normal.
-You share a factional PT, located here, where you may talk during day and night.
-You share a factional kill each night. You must choose which of you will commit the kill.

Win Condition:

You win when members of your faction make up half or more of the living player..


Respond by PM with your role to confirm. The game will begin when at least 10 players have confirmed. You can find the game thread here.


Spoiler: Mafia Neapolitan
Welcome to Mini Normal #____!

You are a
Mafia Neapolitan
.

Your partners are
(PLAYER)
and
(PLAYER)
, who are
Mafia Goons
.

Abilities:

-During the day phase, you may vote and post as normal.
-You share a factional PT, located here, where you may talk during day and night.
-You share a factional kill each night. You must choose which of you will commit the kill.

-During the night phase, you may choose a player. You will be told if that player is a Vanilla Townie. You will receive results in the form of “Your target is a Vanilla Townie,” or “Your target is not a Vanilla Townie.”

Win Condition:

You win when members of your faction make up half or more of the living players.


Respond by PM with your role to confirm. The game will begin when at least 10 players have confirmed. You can find the game thread here.


Opening posts:

Mini Normal #____


Playerlist

__1__
__2__
__3__
__4__
__5__
__6__
__7__
__8__
__9__
__10__
__11__
__12__
__13__


Spoiler: Living Players
Living Players__1__
__2__
__3__
__4__
__5__
__6__
__7__
__8__
__9__
__10__
__11__
__12__
__13__


Spoiler: Dead Players


Spoiler: Sample Vanilla Townie PM
Welcome to Mini Normal #____!

You are a
Vanilla Townie
.

Abilities:

-During the day phase, you may vote and post as normal.

Win Condition:

You win when all threats have been eliminated and there is at least one town-aligned player alive.


Respond by PM with your role to confirm. The game will begin when at least 10 players have confirmed. You can find the game thread here.


The mafia team has day and night chat, and can use multiple abilities per night.

(This rules post lovingly adapted from Rob13 <3)

First, check out the Boilerplate Mafiascum Game Rules. All of the rules on that page apply unless contradicted by a rule below.


All Site Rules apply at all times.



General Rules:


1. Do not use my color (#49007e).
2. If you believe a mod error has been made or you disagree with any action I took, please PM me immediately.
3. Once you are dead, you are permitted to make a single "Bah" post. Do not influence the game in any way with this post.
4. Do not play against the spirit of the rules or of the game.
5. This ruleset is subject to change at any time. If a change is made mid-game, it will be announced in-thread by the mod.

Voting and Deadline Rules:


1. Votes should be made using bolded text (
Vote: Player
) or a vote tag (VOTE: Player). You can also vote for no lynch.
2. A lynch (or no lynch) occurs when a simple majority is reached. If deadline is reached without a simple majority, a no lynch occurs.
3. All days have a deadline of 14 days, sometimes. Things happen, and extensions will be made in rare circumstances.
4. Each night will end after 48 hours and no sooner. The countdown for a night deadline will not start while a replacement is being sought out.
5. All night actions must be submitted by PM or a relevant private topic. I greatly prefer PM.
6. In the case of five consecutive phases with no deaths, all factions who have not yet achieved their win condition lose.

Activity Rules:


1. A prod PM will be issued if any player does not post for 48 hours. Prods will be announced in-thread. You have 24 hours to pick up your prod either by posting or PM (if at night). After this time, I will begin seeking a replacement.
2. I will seek replacement immediately without waiting 24 hours if a player receives a third prod or more.
3. If you plan to be gone for over 48 hours, please announce that you will be V/LA in-thread (or by PM, if at night).

Sample Win Conditions:


You know the following win conditions are present in the game:


You win when all threats have been eliminated and there is at least one town-aligned player alive.


You win when members of your faction make up half or more of the living players.
eagerSnake - "Fwiw mod steals pagetops while driving. Still think they wouldn't put in 2 people with ascetic?"
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podoboq
podoboq
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Post Post #74 (isolation #28) » Thu Sep 08, 2016 12:45 am

Post by podoboq »

In post 73, fferyllt wrote:Enjoy modding this!
I will thanks! I'm very excited for it. I shot N a message letting him know that the setup has been approved.
eagerSnake - "Fwiw mod steals pagetops while driving. Still think they wouldn't put in 2 people with ascetic?"
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podoboq
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Post Post #76 (isolation #29) » Tue Sep 13, 2016 8:46 am

Post by podoboq »

In post 75, Antihero wrote:i suggest taking a gander at this postgame and mentally prepare yourself for what you might get: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=67805

give me a holler if any of your players give you too much shit and i'll come tell them the shut up
Fun
Interesting read. I feel like this is more of a case of a couple of salty people who don't understand what "normal" means in the context of this site. I read and reread every page on the wiki that referred to normalcy to make sure that what I was doing was technically allowed, and then the only thing left is to make it balanced. I'm 100% confident that this setup is normal, regardless of how weird it is. The same with Marquis's. Also, you three signed off on it being balanced, (and in the case that my vote matters, I agree), so I'm not exactly unsure about my confidence in this being a fair and fun setup. People like a scapegoat to blame when they lose.
eagerSnake - "Fwiw mod steals pagetops while driving. Still think they wouldn't put in 2 people with ascetic?"
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podoboq
podoboq
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Posts: 3021
Joined: November 7, 2015
Location: Cincy

Post Post #77 (isolation #30) » Tue Oct 04, 2016 5:37 am

Post by podoboq »

eagerSnake - "Fwiw mod steals pagetops while driving. Still think they wouldn't put in 2 people with ascetic?"
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