Mini Normal 1809: Game Over

[Egg]

Weak as fuck Page 1 scum reads:
Wake - Seems excited
Vedith - Basically copied Blank but changed the name then buddied Cmit
Cmit - Overly friendly and then called Hoopla's reaction "strange" without a vote or further thoughts
Hoopla - That reaction to BBMolla.
Rob - Over reaction to Elyse's vote on him.
^Yes, there are five. That's ok because I highly doubt I'm scumreading all five when I finish reading.

Now, progressing past Page 1, I like Rob's questioning Cmit for that comment about Hoopla. And I notice Cmit appears to be calling it scummy and still hasn't voted.

Hoopla's tone seems to be intentionally trying to get people to town read her. I see Rob noticed this as well. I guess Rob can be crossed off my original list for now. BBMolla is spot on about Rob. He's town and his Elyse vote sucks.

Cmit might just be misguided newbtown. The "everyone is confirmed scum" reads list might not be something newbscum would do.

Vedith's reaction to Hoopla's town bloc is town. I'm left with two weak scum reads (Wake and Hoopla) and no strong ones yet.

I'm only through the first two pages. Will finish this evening.

[Egg]

Meh, those reasons were weak and easily explained by "meh, he's new". Like maybe he's just not aware that voting Hoopla is pretty standard if he thinks she's scummy on Page 1. Or maybe he just wasn't sure of himself. It probably makes more sense than saying he's scum who doesn't want to vote because it might look bad.

Also want to point out that I'm not "writing off" him or anyone else. Just saying it makes more sense for him to be newbtown than newbscum so far.

[Egg]

Ok, picking back up on Page 3.

Cmit saying he has some mafia experience makes that voting hesitance an issue again. Massclaim question is also weird, but not necessarily scummy. Could be scum trying to figure out when he needs a claim. Could be town whose offsite experience revolved more around roles than day play.

Cmit, what site did you play on before here?

<- Answered. Never heard of it... His later posts seem to suggest it's that kind of site though. I'm still on the fence but leaning town.

Hoopla, why was Cmit's question "incredibly town"?

Hmm. These BBMolla votes (Rob and Elyse) look like wrong town. Scum might jump on though so I'm watching for that as I read more. If they don't, maybe BBMolla actually is scum, but not for supposedly suggesting massclaim because that's not what he was doing. His frustrated reaction surprisingly is reading town to me though so...yeah.

1) Do you prefer to play as Town, Mafia, or Independent?
2) What is your favorite role?
3) What are your strengths as a player?
4) What are your weaknesses as a player?
5) Do your strengths and weaknesses change with your alignment? 
6) Do you believe in having a D1 trust/buddy? If “yes” who here would be your D1 trust/buddy?
 7) What is the story behind your current avatar picture?

Meh, probably useless but I like answering stuff.
1) I like being town power roles or self aligned. I kind of suck at not giving off associative tells as scum, but I'm good at looking town.
2) Either a town investigative (Cop or Tracker probably) or SK.
3) Looking town and I think I make good choices with night actions.
4) Keeping active when RL is busy and being read as scum as a result. I also get emotional when people scum read me.
5) Ummm. No, I don't think so.
6) No. There are players who are hard to read and are good players (House, Hoopla, and BBMolla fit into that category in this game) and I don't think I'd pursue their lynch Day 1 unless I'm really confident in that read. I mean, I might, but I'm less likely to.
7) It's an egg.

The RQS refusals are interesting. Here are my thoughts on them:
-Rob seems to have a very strong opinion against answering. I remember someone saying scum don't like to answer because it could give them away or something. (Found it. Mini 1620. Thesp said people who aggressively refuse are scum. He tunneled my scumbuddy for this) I've found it more likely before though that scum go along with the cool thing to do which tends to be answering although maybe their answers are short "yes" and "no" types. I'll keep Rob in mind at least.
-BBMolla seems to have a mindset about RQS that was established long before this game. That makes his reaction pretty null.
-And I'm back to cmit again. It's interesting because we got refusals right away rather than the typical answers and Cmit came right in asking how it was useful and seemed to be acting like it was an original thought. He also quoted Rob though which I'm not sure if that was intentional or not but it shows he had Rob's refusal in mind before stating his own. Not a fan.

Grendel, BBMolla is right. RVS votes usually aren't truly random. I personally don't RVS very often though so what do I know?

Through Page 5. Phone battery is low. I'll finish when it charges some.

[Egg]

Masquarade, you said that what followed Grendel's RQS was boring. What do you think of those who refused to answer? I also noticed you didn't list any strengths. Do you really not know of any? Because you said you prefer playing scum and "sort of" change strengths and weknesses with alignment and it kind of feels like you had scum strengths in mind that you didn't want to share. How do you know your strengths and weaknesses change without knowing what your strengths are?

Except this year. Even if you hate Hillary you have to vote her or we get stuck with chump.

I want to make America great again though. What made you go from the "RQS is stupid and distracting" mentality to answering the questions? For someone preaching about distractions, you seem pretty ok with them now. And that includes some of the fluff posting before answering the RQS. Asking your own questions seems weird too after calling it a stupid distraction when someone else did it.

BBMolla's 170 hit very close to home for me fyi.

Chaos, any thoughts that aren't about Masquarade?

House, when you said "write them off", yeah I thought you meant writing cmit off as town. I actually had to go back and read more than once to see that that's not what you meant. But yeah I'm back and forth on cmit unfortunately. He's doing things that I'd consider scummy if an experienced player did them, but new players are different to read and he hasn't committed any of my classic newbscum tells. As for why I had page 1 stuff and page 2 stuff in the same post, *shrug*. It's gonna happen any time I'm not fully caught up. Things change as I read and the more ground I cover in one post, the more likely it is that I change my mind in one sitting. It's not "conflicting thoughts". It's an old thought being replaced by a new thought.

Grendel, can you elaborate on your previous "good result" with RQS?

5) Elaborate?
6) Hmm, Say that Hypothec ally House, Hoopla, and BBmolla are conftown, who would you work most closely with to win the game?

5. Meh. I don't personally think my alignment affects my play. I know that sounds cocky, but my game changes much more from other influences such as availible free time, playerlist, and mood than alignment. Maybe it's because I've played like 300 games so I'm over any nervousness about harder roles to play and I know what people look for when making their reads. I try to be open and genuine as both town and scum which is something that gets me townread whether I'm actually town or not. You'll remember I listed that as a strength. As for my weaknesses, I'm going to be too busy when RL happens. RL doesn't happen based on my role in a mafia game. I don't go to work more as scum. I don't take time off as town. These things seem obvious, but that's really a key factor in how people read me whether they know it or not. It's the same with my emotions. It's about whether people are making sense or not rather than my alignment.
6. Hmm. Good question. My first instinct is to say House just because I've had more experience with him than BBMolla or Hoopla and I feel like I interact better with him. But, as he will tell you himself, he's a much stronger scum player than town. I'd probably trust a confirmed town Hoopla's reads the most. So I'll say Hoopla.

Ohhhhhh. Cmit is a town of salem guy. Never saw that abbreviated that way before. Ok, yeah, that explains basically every issue I had with him. Still would like to know why he was comfortable voting after not seeming that way with Hoopla though.

Now that I'm caught up,

Vote Masquarade

Believe it or not, Grendel's RQS may have actually led to something. As I outlined above, Masquarade's answers didn't sit right with me.

[Egg]

Must have missed it. Can you quote it for me?

[Egg]

6. Hmm. Good question. My first instinct is to say House just because I've had more experience with him than BBMolla or Hoopla and I feel like I interact better with him. But, as he will tell you himself, he's a much stronger scum player than town. I'd probably trust a confirmed town Hoopla's reads the most. So I'll say Hoopla.

While I agree with you on principle, you should check my play in this game.

Summary is more valuable than a link. I don't read games I'm not in.

Ugh I'm bored so here goes.

Kind of hard to miss imo.

Hmm. Didn't miss it, just hoped there was more to it I guess. So distractions from the game are ok if you're bored?

[Egg]

Are you assuming Grendel wasn't bored when he made his post?

[Egg]

So the fact that I feel he's hiding his scum meta doesn't mean anything unless I'm scum who is bullshitting?

[Egg]

Like did you read that paragraph or you just didn't like it because RQS led to it?

[Egg]

Masquarade answered. His answers surrounding scum play felt guarded though.

[Egg]

Like that game you mentioned earlier. The assertion that people refusing to answer was an incorrect assertion. That game also showed it was a pointless activity because beck proved rqs didn't help the person find scum in previous games.

*shrug*. Beck was scum so it's hard to say he was completely wrong. You'll notice I chose not to vote you for it though so that should say something about my confidence in that tell.

Masquarade answered. His answers surrounding scum play felt guarded though.

Ok? There's motive for town to keep their scum meta secret.

1)I disagree
2)He didn't say that though.
3)What is your read on Masquarade?

[Egg]

1. Not worried about that. This game is an island. If I can be easier to read here, it's a good thing. I'll worry about changing my scum game later if I need to. Like I said though, I don't know of any differences in my town and scum game.
2. Again, he DID answer. Also, I prefer to vote when something stands out. If I change my mind, I can unvote later. Anyway, my point in this one was that you assumed he was hiding his scum meta for town reasons. You put those words in his mouth.
3. Interesting. You're acting like you have a strong town read on him.

[Egg]

You're acting on principle rather than reading the words Masquarade and I posted then. People can say and do scummy things regardless of what is said prior to their post. For example, if my answer to the first question was "This is my first time as scum so we'll see how it goes", I don't think people would be wrong to use that against me. Now, Masquarade's answer wasn't quite THAT damning, but I'm using extremes to make my point.

Personal opinions aren't alignment indicative unless you can prove they lied which I don't think you can. I don't even think it's even possible because lying about your own opinions is stupid. People do like to lie on this site though so I guess it's possible but I don't know how you can prove it.

What opinion are you referring to here?

[Egg]

I won't say anything else cause I'm really not trying to be the shit starter anymore and I'm afraid I'll resort to insults which is my fall back.

I'm trying to change my image for the better so let's just agree to disagree. Just want to be on record that I think this is a bad push regardless what masq' alignment is.

If you're town, this is actually constructive though. You're ignoring information and I'm trying to show you that.

[Egg]

There's a difference between lying and being worried about people scumreading you for your answers and answering accordingly

[Egg]

Rob, because we don't just have different views on a player. You are acting on principle. Like, most of what we say in a mafia game is opinions yet people form reads all the time. The fact that a post was responding to RQS doesn't make it 100% null. You're not even trying to understand my point just because Grendel asked some questions you didn't like, and even called a stupid distraction, but answered anyway.

House, holy shit. lol

Cmit, from what I've heard it's a very different game there. Everything is based on your role, not what you say in thread. So your wondering about massclaim and stuff like that is pretty normal. Here, it's more like "OMG HE TALKED ABOUT ROLES. HE'S SCUM". But I notice you didn't answer my question. Any reason for that?

[Egg]

Which doesn't make sense to me but whatever I guess

[Egg]

Fair enough to both of you.

[Egg]

Ok Grendel can be town.

[Egg]

Ok Grendel can be town.

Why?

He used RQS as town, felt successful with it (whether he actually WAS or not is irrelevent) and brought it here. Then he did a good job of outlining why. It feels genuine. He really believes he is doing a good thing for town.

[Egg]

Hmm. So no reads yet?

[Egg]

Gotcha.

[Egg]

Ehh, it was probably just that three posts in a four post block were yours right at the start of the game and then the smilie and the way I read your tone.

[Egg]

Ehh, it was probably just that three posts in a four post block were yours right at the start of the game and then the smilie and the way I read your tone.

I'm honestly curious, and would really like you to go on on this please.

I would but there really isn't more.

[Egg]

Hmm. That didn't really answer my concerns, Masquarade.

Rob, yeah I'm serious.

[Egg]

Nope, I usually don't like RQS. I think this is the first time I've townread someone for it. That's why I questioned him about doing it in the past. He just happened to have a very genuine answer. Usually, I get "I do it every game" which is obnoxious because you can't get a read from it. But the whole trying it once and liking the result as town, then doing it here. Like I said, he genuinely believes he's doing something that helps town. And whether he's right or not, that's a town mindset.

[Egg]

So I'm a bit behind, but I support the Vedith pressure.

[Egg]

So town is going for a PL instead of a scum lynch?



Fucking ridiculous

Huh?

[Egg]

V/LA until Monday

Traveling out of state.

[Egg]

Vote Vedith

Deadline.

What's the Blankface wagon about?

[Egg]

Not without hearing why he's scum.

[Egg]

Even reasons why Vedith is town might help

[Egg]

When I'm home from Ohio, I will.

[Egg]

Catching up:
Page 13:
I don't like BBMolla's using defending himself as an excuse not to scum hunt (Post 306).

Post 314 is a good example of why I'm shocked that Rob was a Jake From State Farm alt. Jake was actually a good player. Rob is obnoxiously sarcastic and intentionally dense. It's like he came here just to troll the game. Not really relevant now but it's shocking to me.

Page 14-15:
Pretty sure House was town. He seems convinced Rob is actually scum. He's also trying to advance the game despite the personal BS. I'm looking specifically at where he tells Blankface that it's useless to call the whole thing anti town without giving reads. BBMolla basically echos that, so I guess he gets town points too. Hoopla is probably right about Bbmolla not being able to fake emotions anyway.

Page 16:
Ok, I find myself agreeing with Elyse's Blankface case. He feels like scum who isn't sure what to say because he can't genuinely scum hunt. He's been on site for over a year though. I might need to do a quick scan of his meta to see if he's been scum before. I should also mention I have a weak gut scum read on Wake. Not sure why. It's there though.

Not sure how Blankface thought I had yet to vote at that point. There was a vote count on the top of the page. His reaction to Elyse's vote sucks too.

Pages 17-21:
Sorry, not gonna comment on House vs Rob any more than I have already.

Battery is dying on my phone and it's almost 2AM anyway. I intend to finish tomorrow

[Egg]

Page 22:
Grendel, not sure where you got the impression that I felt bad for you or anything. Just anything anyone was saying about "OMG HE DID RQS. SCUM!" is so plain wrong and your motivation for doing it looked so town. I don't want to lynch town for shit reasons so I spoke up. it's not about you specifically. It's about the big picture. That said, I have too many town reads so I'll have to go back and see who is fooling me at some point.

Page 23:
Fully agree with Elyse's continued accusations against Blankface for playing referee instead of scumhunting. And even saying that that's the only thing going on wouldn't work because there is no attempt to read House or Rob's alignment and Blank hadn't shared opinions before any of the BS either.

Not sure if I said it already, but I have a strong meta town read on House.

Page 24:
Grendel, can you explain why Wake's interactions with House and Rob are town rather than just someone who wants to keep the game civil? Also, I don't think House failed RQS. I think he did a typical House thing and answered just to humor you, see what you did with it, and evaluate. I know he didn't really follow up aton, but I think that's why he didn't take it seriously. The thing with Rob probably distracted him from it.

Blankface/hoopla probably isn't a team because Hoopla would probably be more likely to come it with a "let's end the day and lynch vedith" rather than switching up wagons. If Blankface is town, the whole thing is null as it relates to Hoopla.

Page 25:
Wonderful. More BS.

Page 26:
Blatant rolefishing by cmit. I know town of salem is supposed to be more role based than here, but really? Cmit, why did you want to know Rob's role?

Page 27:
Hoopla, I notice five people in the vote count at 2 votes. You said you wanted to see Vedith vs Blank today. Why them specifically? And if low activity is the reason, why not Masquarade?

Fuck. I have too many townreads and Blankface hasn't been one of them but post 665 looks town. He still hasn't given reads and has ignored requests to do so though. He implies he's reading along and just not interested, but I don't see many people uninterested in giving reads so meh. Maybe I'm just trying to justify scumreading him to myself but I dunno. The whole "this game sucks" mentality and wanting to replace out felt town. Scum could sit back and let the game blow up. Which I guess to an extent he's done so meh. He might still be scum, but Masquarade and Cmit are probably better lynches.

Gotta charge my phone before I finish.

[Egg]

Page 28:
So I haven't figured out why Chaos died unless it was to frame Masquarade, but these were some of his reads, so maybe I've been on the right track:

Not interested in voting Hoopla today.

You have any sort of read on Masquerade, Wake, or BlankFace?

Grendel, I'm writing this before reading any response from Elyse or your reaction to it (I type as I read), but if you weren't satisfied with her answer, I can definitely go through House's stuff with Rob and show a bunch of townish stuff from him.

Pages 29/30

I feel like tickling Egg

I'm not ticklish.

Really though, at first glance, Wake's push to avoid no lynch feels town at first. Only thing is, if he's scum, he wants a mislynch. We already know Vedith was town. If Blankface was also town, scumWake would hate a mislynch just as much as townWake. I almost have to call it null. I'm also noting Hoopla doing the same.

House makes a good point about Hoopla and Wake being on the same page and avoiding interaction. Wake not being in Hoopla's so called town bloc is interesting with that in mind. Throw in the fact that Hoopla seemed to randomly exclude Masquarade from the Blank vs Vedith wagon thing earlier, then again on this Page (Post 729), and this very well could be the scum team (Hoopla/Wake/Masquarade). As much as I don't like Blankface's refusal to give any reads, that's probably my best guess at this point. Oh, I keep forgetting cmit too because he hasn't said much lately. Guess my "too many town reads" problem isn't such a big deal anymore. Strong town reads on Grendel, House, and Elyse is probably a good thing then.

Page 31:
I don't like Masquarade's reasoning for voting Vedith. He was scumreading Vedith earlier, so why not just point to that? Saying he wants momentum on the wagon and something to talk about rubs me the wrong way there.

Two issues with Wake on this page:
1) The reaction to Rob being JK feels fake. It's an unnecessary "oh man we lost a power role" type post and it reeks of trying to seem upset. The "?" to House gets lumped in with this reaction because of the "what did I do" feel it has to it. Like he knows he slipped up but doesn't know where.
2) The hesitance on voting after pushing everyone else to vote Vedith or Blankface feels like avoiding responsibility. It pushes both lynches, but doesn't show up on a VCA.

Page 32:
Hoopla's 780 might be scum hoping to wagon Blankface because the Vedith wagon didn't out a power role. Like she wants a second attempt. I'm not speculating on Blankface's role in any way here, but Hoopla could just be looking for claims in general.

So Cmit missed Grendel's question 3 times, has no update on that reads list, and thought BBMolla was modkilled. What the fuck. Definitely not paying attention. The question is whether he's lost scum or lost town...

Page 33:
I remember Masquarade catching flak for the Vedith vote. My issue there wasn't the vote itself, but the later explanation. Masquarade had Vedith as a scum read earlier. But why the switch to Blankface for being "an ok lynch"? I'd expect strong preference towards Vedith based on Masquarade's earlier posting. It's not consistent and the indifference is yet another reason to think that Masquarade is scum and Blankface is town.

Cmit, why unvote Vedith without voting Blankface?

Elyse's 824 is obvtown.

Page 34:
Wake, if you didn't want Vedith and Blankface pressured today, why were you encouraging people to pick one or the other to vote earlier?

Hmm. Cmit's 831 might be town with a genuine town read on Blankface. This guy is so hard to read, but I think I'm sticking with my Hoopla/Wake/Masquarade team for now.

Vote Masquarade

^I'm most confident here.

[Egg]

Can you remind me what your reads are?

[Egg]

It's a pretty wide range, actually. But yeah there are quite a few people in their mid 20s here, myself included.

[Egg]

Crap, forgot to /in before OMGUS

[Egg]

Oh you're voting me. I see.

Please tell me someone else sees how fake this is.

[Egg]

It's not. I tend to miss votes in walls when they're merely bolded (what is it with people not just putting a v instead of a b?) and that vc wasn't actually there yet when I opened this page (curse of a small screen and refreshing)

Have you missed almost every vote count this game?

Elyse, what do you think about Hoopla not even mentioning Masquarade when about five people had 2-3 votes and she suddenly decided it's Blankface vs Vedith?

Cmit, any reads on the remaining living players not named Grendel?

Grendel, I think Wake is someone who wants a fun game regardless of alignment. I don't think he'd encourage a shit fest as scum, or even just let it happen, just because it might help him win the game. I'll go into House at some point, but if you're not pushing his slot right now there probably isn't any point in rushing to it. I'm a busy person.

[Egg]

Here's what I mean regarding Hoopla/Masquarade:

VOTE COUNT 1.08
Vedith (5): BBmolla, cmitc1, House, Hoopla, Wake88
Masquerade (2): ChaosOmega, Egg
Elyse (1): BlankFace
BlankFace (1): Elyse

I am mostly waiting for the non-contributors to contribute and over-contributors to stop.

lets switch up the vedith/blankface wagons:

UNVOTE: VOTE: blankface

In that case, a Masquarade vote makes more sense. Masq had two votes. Blank had one. Both were low content slots. Yet Masq is never mentioned.

Then:

VOTE COUNT 1.09
Vedith (2): BBmolla, cmitc1
Masquerade (2): ChaosOmega, Egg
BlankFace (2): Elyse, Hoopla
Robbnva (2): Masquerade, House
House (2): Grendel, Robbnva

House, Rob, Molla aren't being lynched today. There simply isn't enough support. If there had been, we definitely would have seen it after these last few days. 

Vedith and Blankface are good choices that most people seem open to.

I get that she specifically removed Rob and House. Molla had no votes so whatever. But why Vedith and Blank with no mention, yet again, of Masq who had the same two votes and Vedith and Blank?

[Egg]

Haven't even looked at a single Masq post, but this wagon looks incredibly scum driven.

Hoopla could be bussing

[Egg]

Grendel, how surprised would you be to see cmit flip town?

[Egg]

Still waiting for this to be answered:

Grendel, how surprised would you be to see cmit flip town?

[Egg]

Not much of a thought process to be honest. Masquarade made a post or two that made me doubt myself and I've been back and forth on cmit so I'm wondering if sheeping you would be a better idea than trusting my own read on Masq.

[Egg]

Grendel, no I'm not townreadin Masq. Just getting less confident in my scum read. Undecided on sheeping still

[Egg]

Masquarade, have you ever had to claim in a game where you were scum before?

[Egg]

Link(s)?

[Egg]

Only way I'll unvote is if Masq claims to still have the shot. If so, 1 shot vig is confirmable if two kills happen. If not, hammer away.

[Egg]

Actually would like Masq to claim target too. Could be important later.

Unvote

[Egg]

Sure

[Egg]

Probably still Masq, but Cmit would be my second choice.

[Egg]

why would there be a fucking 1-shot vig in this game

Why wouldn't there?

[Egg]

Why would you doubt molla's confidence about the lack of vig, when your stance on Masq is this:

Nah, I'm wondering how 3 flips, 2 of which are VTs, tell Molla that Masq's claimed role can't exist.

When you say that^ the view you're implicitly espousing is you don't believe the vig claim

I'm definitely skeptical, but you make sense when you say that I can be proven wrong with a two kill night or a dead scum. I'm open to lynching cmit instead. May even do it in this post. Lemme finish reading first.

This sort of fencesitty wishy-washy under the radar posting is exactly what I was talking about with regards to Egg

I've played way too much mafia to still think I'm always right, especially when my reads in my last two completed games were shit (I was right on exactly one scum between the two games. They were larges). I'm more than willing to give a confirmable claim a chance. You yourself voted Masq and switched after the claim, so I think you understand the mentality.

I really really don't want to say whether I shot N1 or didn't. If I am still alive tomorrow, I'll explain why. I have good reason and you can either trust me or go ahead and lynch me.

Why is tomorrow better than today?

[Egg]

Yeah

Vote Cmit

[Egg]

What's that?

[Egg]

Unvote

So Masq's action failed and Cmit's action failed. Hmm... Possible, but not likely but both roles are confirmable. Ugh.

Cmit, you probably need to tell us who you're targeting because if you die, we lose that info. Problem is, if you say you're targeting scum, you get blocked but meh, better than you dying if your claim is true.

I want to hear some thoughts because I'm at a loss for a compromise now. Hell, I don't mind being the lynch myself. I wouldn't mind having one less game to play. I want Grendel's input on Cmit's claim though.

[Egg]

It's easily availible on the wiki. I checked myself after asking what it was. His answer matched the wiki.

[Egg]

Maybe cmit should neighborize Masq?

[Egg]

Maybe Masq and Cmit should both target each other?

Let me work this out.

If Masq is scum, Cmit either dies, near-confirming Masq as scum or is blocked.
If Cmit is scum, Masq either kills him or is blocked.

Honestly, that probably becomes a stalemate until we get the scum RB if there is one.

But if Cmit is scum who is lying about being blocked and Masq's kill failed for another reason, Masq killing Cmit is still possible.

Is it worth trying?

[Egg]

Why would he claim doc or JK with a dead JK already flipping?

[Egg]

Better question. Who do we lynch?

[Egg]

Better question. Who do we lynch?

That is kinda why i decided to reveal my role a little early. I am not really sure who we should go with.

Yeah this close to deadline it's cool.

[Egg]

Vote Hoopla

[Egg]

My first impression is to like that idea

[Egg]

You know what. I'm done being patient with you guys.

I

know

Mask isn't the one-shot vigilante. Because

I'm the one-shot vigilante

.

I was gonna wait and night kill Mask tonight, because it'd be less messy. but if you guys are just gonna throw me on the chopping block then screw it.

We're lynching Mask today.

VOTE: Masquerade

I actually thought you were a cop with a guilty on Cmit earlier.

Hoopla, with Masq and Grendel shooting each other and Cmit doing his thing, scum can't block both. I say we try both plans and see what happens.

Preview edit: But Rob wasn't alive last night

[Egg]

So...

Who are we lynching? I need to sleep

[Egg]

Unvote, Vote Masquarade

[Egg]

I was neighborized.

This pretty much has to be true unless BBMolla is scum whose team blocked cmit. Hoopla's 1137 is a good point though. I would expect that they didn't get a chance to talk so the claim that cmit made a post is weird.

Let's see. Grendel's kill didn't go through. That means unless someone can account for that failed kill, he was blocked and BBMolla wasn't. So we're back to BBMolla is town because he wouldn't come in and say cmit targeted him if someone else could counter that.

Sera, don't forget that hoopla pushed for us to let masq live and confirm the claim before finally voting Masq (yes i'm aware i did the same thing lol). It's not like hoopla hardbussed if she's scum.

I'm leaning towards voting hoopla i think

[Egg]

Vote Hoopla

[Egg]

I'll make a real post tomorrow

[Egg]

Actually, I've got time now.

Hoopla,
1) Grendel was never being lynched. Any decent scum would have bussed Masq before even considering voting Grendel.
2) You mentioned yesterday that the way Vedith vs Blank played out made Blank more likely town. What changed to outweigh that? You didn't really spend any time discussing Blank in the post where you vote him except to say that he makes sense as scum with Elyse and is a better lynch than Elyse for being off the wagon.
3) Not that I'm scumreadin BBMolla, but I disagree when you don't seem to think scum would claim getting neighborized so quickly. Scum love opportunities to "confirm" themselves. The possibly incriminating question to the mod out in the open is pretty town though.
4) You wanted to let Masq live before Grendel claimed and the fact that you're now pretending that didn't happen by calling it "fiction" and referring to a different part of the day isn't making me feel any better about that. (More reading shows me that Elyse touched on this)

1200 is good posting.

[Egg]

V/LA until Sunday night

[Egg]

Well, I'm back. And didn't miss a thing from the looks of things.

[Egg]

The guy you replaced claimed vig. Tell us how many shots you have left.

[Egg]

I think your slot is scum. Trying to get you to slip was worth a try.

[Egg]

Tempted to switch to Blank just for that replace out

[Egg]

Well here's all his games:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/search.php?a ... &sr=topics

I see a lot of Newbie games. Dating game is weird mechanics so it's hard to treat it like other games.

Two other non-newbie games. one he was lynched Day 1 with quite a few posts. The other has a messy OP so I dunno.

[Egg]

Yeah, I dunno. That replace out really does leave a bad taste in my mouth but I don't know if it's me scumreading him for it or just being pissed off at how people don't care about mafia anymore. Honestly that's probably it.

[Egg]

ah shit

Hoopla?

[Egg]

Hoopla=scum, probably Wing.

Hoopla=town, more info needed.

Not even sure where I'd look if we lynch Blank.

[Egg]

Info lynches are dumb. If I had a stronger scum read on Blank, I'd vote him regardless.

That claim though. Hmm. Hoopla is definitely the type to either claim a power role or wait until the last minute. But with a JK, investigative role, and vig already out there in another game, what is left to claim? Even then though, I don't see her claiming VT so soon as scum.

Could I be wrong? Input please people

[Egg]

What about the timing of the claim though?

[Egg]

Ok

[Egg]

I dunno, it just seems like Hoopla would know that claiming VT could seal her fate and she might put it off or even not do it at all. Your point of view makes sense though and I'm not convinced that Blank is scum so I'm not switching but basically I don't feel confident anymore...

[Egg]

V/LA until Sunday night

[Egg]

Wing, in that game you dug up, do my posts towards Newbie read as "passive, casual follow ups"?

[Egg]

Ah. Yeah, I really should stop playing mafia because of my job. I'm either at work with no access or I'm dead tired.

[Egg]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=66557
Why not even look at my most recent town game? It shows how busy I've been. 30 pages behind for most of the game. Also, if you've meta'd me as much as you seemed to, you'd have seen me self vote as town I'm sure.

[Egg]

At the very least you'd have seen comments about hating mafia and not wanting to be in games

[Egg]

*shrug*

The two people I said are scum are voting me now.

[Egg]

Guess it makes sense when they had to NK cmit.

[Egg]

Blank is far from a guarantee. Hoopla was more likely. Probably still is.

I'd give you links but I don't have time. I'm amazed you didn't find it on your own considering you're giving meta from like 2 years ago.

[Egg]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=59772
^this town game is probably the closest to this one for me.

Highlights:
-behind in the beginning, detatched and feeling useless when caught up
-refused to claim
-guessed someone's role wrong
-constantly too busy to do much

Gotta charge my phone and I'll try to find time to look for a "fuck it, lynch me" game, but really any game where I got lynched or even close to it you'll see me get cranky and/or careless regardless of my alignment. Team mafia would have been like that if it wasn't such an important game.

[Egg]

Ok, let me take the time to give a mostly proper response.

Your point:
My reaction test could have gotten you to claim.

My response:
Worst case scenario was that you look obvtown for doing so. With so many power roles outted already, I wasn't going to out a strong power role or anything. Best case is I catch you in a lie and we lynch scum. It would be pointless for scum and possibly harmful. For town it was probably still pointless, but could have helped.

Your point:
Trying too hard to "show work"

My response:
You are apparently very familiar with my meta so it shouldn't surprise you that I tend to be very transparent as town and try to appear the same way as scum

Your point:
I was tying people to Masq when I voted Masq

My response:
Nah, if anything I tied Hoopla and Wake and then tied Hoopla to Masq after Masq's flip. I don't like to tunnel on just one person. I'm looking for the whole scum team or at least the scummiest players Days 1 and 2. Hoopla and Wake interacted in ways that looked scum/scum, but I was more confident Masq was scum so that's where I voted. You'll also notice I raised the point that Chaos was a weird kill but he suspected Masq and the rest of his reads were similar to mine. That still stands out to me and is a big reason why I haven't changed my reads much.

Your point:
My offer to be lynched isn't a towntell and looks like an emotional appeal

My response:
I concede that it's something I'd do as scum for a combination of town points and genuine dislike of mafia. However, I deal with real emotion all the time as town too. I really want to be in 0 games, but every time games end people ask me to join another and I suck at saying no. Not wanting to play has been a common theme for me for quite a while. Same with being too busy to play.

Your point:
I might be scum with Elyse

My response:
If I die, this becomes irrelevant. If Elyse dies and flips town, same thing. If Elyse dies and flips scum while I'm still alive, I'll address this. But for now, it's pointless.

Your point:
I had a townread on Elyse

My response:
True. PoE would probably be the only reason I'd see to vote Elyse. It crossed my mind when Hoopla claimed VT, but nothing in her play looks like scum to me. Her suspicion of BBMolla looked genuine too.

Your point:
I was passive and casual while voting Masq

My response:
I was busy and behind in all of my games. Null

Your point:
I bus as scum except when I don't

My response:
I'm right as town except when I'm not. Seriously the fact that I've bussed before doesn't mean that I'm scum every time I vote scum. To be fair though, you said the only thing it shows is that my Masq vote isn't a reason to town read me and I can't disagree with that. What I'd challenge people to do is read my ISO in that game just like you suggest and see how every chance I get I'm attacking Newbie. Every chance I get, I'm showing what obvscum my scumbuddy is. I didn't act that way towards Masq. I found a few points and stuck to them. My case, while right, wasn't nearly as strong as that one was. And if you open the scum PT from that game, you'll see that I replaced in and singlehandedly turned around a disaster of a game for scum (of course Titus helped later on too). Here, I think everyone will agree it would be shocking to see a similarity in any scum PT I'd be part of. My play there is almost exact opposite from here in almost every way except that I voted scum.

Your point:
Suggesting a lynch on myself is stupid

My response:
*shrug*. My intelligence has been insulted so many times on this site that maybe you're right and I'm just an idiot. But like I said, I don't enjoy this game anymore. I really don't. It was a selfish comment. I'll admit that. But sitting here arguing with people on my phone and hearing how dumb I am is a big part of why I want to have very little to do with this site. I like the fantasy football league, but that's about it. But if you think you're smarter than me, *shrug*, what can I say? Maybe you're right. If not, I don't even care frankly. I still intend to find a link by the way.

Your point:
Thinking Grendel had a guilty on cmit is faking a town tell

My response:
See, I'm not usually one to show why things I do are town. I usually let people figure that out on their own. But here, I'll make an exception because it feels obvious to me and you aren't seeing it (still not sure if it's intentional or not). I don't see any way I'd come up with that out of the blue as scum. I mean, I think it's obvious that "looking for power roles" is usually seen as scummy. I didn't expect town points for that. I didn't care how I was read for it and actually expected some suspicion. So, that in mind, it only makes sense to say it if I genuinely thought Grendel was a cop. And you can argue that I intended to NK him and that's why I went all "tell me how confident you are" and "should I sheep you?". Like it makes sense as scum rolefishing. But here's the catch. Me trying to determine whether Grendel has a guilty on cmit as scum requires cmit to actually be scum. Cmit was town. So why bother doing it as scum? It isn't something that looks town because it can come off as rolefishing (i've shown it obviously wasn't) so it's not for town points. And I can't be scum who thinks he has a guilty because cmit wasn't town. So why do it? And if your arguement is that it's to make this exact post, you think I'm psychic because I knew you'd replace in and question me on it all the way on Day 3 and I'd wait until then to address it.

Your point:
Following up on the previous one, you mentioned that I was apparently trying to appear uninformed on cmit's alignment

My response:
So we're going with the point that I'm psychic. Otherwise, why wasn't that brought up until now? You've got to realize this is a stretch

Your point:
My Masq push was bad

My response:
I disagree obviously.

Your point:
I should have voted Blank at deadline over Vedith

My response:
I asked for the Blank case. no one gave it. House even openly refused. So I voted Vedith so was actually scummy over Blank who I had no info on. You mention that it was 5-2 when I voted. I was unaware of the vote count if I'm remembering correctly.

Your point:
I'm uninvolved as scum

My response:
Nope. That depends on real life, not alignment. You appear to have picked and chosen games to fit your narrative.

Your point:
My being uninvolved here is different from adventure mafia because that was a bigger and faster game

My response:
Both this game and that one were going on at the same time. There, I was about to be lynched just for being busy so I put that game above this one on my priority list. So pages and pages building up in that game directly impacted my activity here.

Your point:
Hating mafia is different from not wanting to play it

My response:
Nuh-uh

Your point:
My calling you and hoopla is fake

My response:
No, I've been saying that for quite a while, not just when you voted me.

[Egg]

Wing:
1) Oh, ok that's fair. I looked at where you linked when you said it originally. But yeah, Hoopla not including Masq in vedith vs blank was pretty sketchy and I didpoint that out. You're definitely right about that.

2) ok, other than the fact that you're ignoring my entire point on this one... sometimes cops like to try to get the person lynched without claiming so they can get at least one more investigation in, especially early in the game. If I could be sure grendel was doing that, I could have sheeped and tried to help. So of course it's important to figure that out. It's tough because I needed to be subtle and get the message accross to grendel at the same time, but my posts clearly show that that's what I was doing and there is no point for scum who knows cmit to be town to do that. If you really think it was just to show lack of knowledge on cmit's alignment, then you're saying I committed hard to it and then let it just go away all the way until now. That makes no sense.

3) I disagree. Masq was nervous about scum meta and was hiding it. Even newb town should be open about their scum meta so they can be like "see, i'm completely different now"

4) my attitude towards mafia in general is null. I'll get around to the links. I have a shit ton going on both on site and in real life. highlights include clash of the mash and fantasy football on site and 16 hour work days and my daughter being born any day now in real life. to be perfectly honest, your links are low priority and I know you can find them yourself because you meta'd me extensively already. just look for games where I was suspected by multiple people in the last, let's say four years.

Mathblade, do you honestly believe Elyse is bussing Hoopla with one scum already dead? If she is, she even had opportunity to back off when I hesitated at Hoopla's VT claim.

[Egg]

Vote no lynch

[Egg]

Are we in MyLo or LyLo?

Most likely, yeah

[Egg]

I dunno. I could see either of them as scum but I'm not as convinced as you are that they are partners.

For example, why can't it be mathblade/bbmolla. math went hard after a hoopla/elyse team which is weird enough. But math could be scum trying to throw shade on elyse and get hoopla lynched and they seemed to write off bbmolla for no reason.

I also came around to Blankface being town later on so I'm not confident jumping right to mathblade being scum.

The only read I'm confident in is killthestory being town because I've played with House enough to know that he was obvtown.

I'm not even sure who I want to lynch and no lynching would be standard play here anyway.

[Egg]

Prod dodge. Need to read up...

[Egg]

Mathblade's vote on Elyse is scummy and most likely a vote on a partner. I doubt she'd that put that scummy vote on a town player and make people second-guess. Makes much more sense to hammer after BBMolla and I vote if Elyse was town.

In any case, not doing anything until Egg lays out all his reads clearly.

Prod dodge. Need to read up...

Hopefully you have something good after the thorough reading you've done in the past four and a half hours.

Sorry, can't read and sleep at the same time.

[Egg]

Wing, your posts right around my last one read like "Math is scum because Math is scum and Elyse is scum because of Math's meta and everyone else is town so here's 2 million words to say that". I don't really see where you're going or how you get there. If Math is scum, it might start to make some sense but you aren't really selling me on that point. I also feel like Elyse is winning the arguement with you, but the better arguer isn't always town so meh.

Elyse's 1450 alone is very scummy though. When did mathblade become anything even close to confirmed scum? How can you be that confident after tunneling town (Hoopla) all of Day 3? It's clearly fake confidence which means one of three things:
1) Elyse is bussing Math
2) Elyse is scum trying to lynch town Math for the win
3) Elyse is town who is using persuasion tools to manipulate the rest of town.

So I could probably vote Elyse for the above.

Math, I think we threw away no lynching when we started discussing things today. It's pretty obvious the NK will be one of two people who I won't name on the off chance I'm wrong and we still no lynch. Either way I don't think no lynching gives us any info now.

Elyse, if you want me to vote Math over you, sell me on why Math is such obvscum. I don't see it. Am I just dumb?

Unvote

[Egg]

Wing, you're throwing around a lot of words and Elyse did a good job of showing that and addressing anything you may have had on her. As far as your Math case, I chalk most of that up to personality, but #3 is pretty good. And for a best guess, I choose not to answer because why help scum with their NK. I'll vote when I have my mind made up and I'll keep the partner speculation to myself.

THIS WAS A JOKE

omg

I actually didn't realize that lol.

This is why MathBlade is basically confscum.They spent the entire day saying that Hoopla and I are scum together and then randomly decided that they didn't see us as scum together. They know they're going down and want to take me down with them.Which is why lynching ME over them is ridiculous because their plan all along was clearly to get me lynched first. And now it's coming to fruition. I mean look at that switch from "Wingback is scum" to voting me when it looks like I'll be the lynch.

Hmm. Sure, maybe, but confirmed scum? You don't really believe that. You might like your case and maybe even not be willing to hear another option for today, but confirmed? No.

It mostly pisses me off that the reason town is going to lose

^That feels genuine though. I might need to skim some Elyse LYLO games.

You never responded to my point that as scum, I don't need Egg for anything. I don't need to make stuff up about how Egg won't vote you when I'd happily vote no lynch and once in 5P, allow KTS or BBMolla to quickvote you before hammering. Like if I was scum, I pretty much already have a path to victory so I'm confused about why you think I'm making up stuff about Egg not voting you.

But for that to work, you'd have to NK me which would surely raise red flags. Like say we no lynch and you NK molla for example. Then we lynch your buddy (let's assume mathblade because Elyse's scenario requires she and I to be town I believe). For killthestory to be there to quick vote, you have to NK me. I don't think you'd be able to win that WIFOM battle of why I died over killthestory. Use BBMolla instead and it's even worse for you because he's thinking "holy shit killthestory and egg died before me, wtf happened?". If you are scum, getting your town cred or a win today makes just as much sense, if not more, than what you are trying to push as being a sure thing (no lynching). Hell, Elyse and Math can't both be scum with you so if you are scum you clearly have a shot of lynching town by proposing that team today which is a quicker path to victory.

The best move for any scumteam today is to lynch me.

^See, this doesn't feel like fake scum AtE either...

the best move for a scumteam if Molla/KTS/Elyse

I feel like if you believed that, you'd be pushing Math and myself as scum for voting no lynch rather than Elyse and Math. Or at the very least considering it. Having your mind made up is dangerous if you are town, but could also be scum...

Elyse vs Wingback in LYLO with Egg casting the deciding vote. 

Oh God, no. Don't let that happen lol.

[Egg]

Ok, I didn't want to get into town reads and scum pairs but...

Maybe mathblade is the best lynch and here's why.

I think most of us are assuming killthestory is town. Bbmolla maybe too (but can someone remind me why?)

If those things are true, we are left with (from my point of view):
Elyse/Wing in a weird pointless cross bus
Elyse/math
Wing/math

So either math is scum or Elyse and wing decided getting into a pissing match as scum together made more sense than just lynching mathtown.

So if someone can show me why BBMolla is town, you might have my vote for math.

[Egg]

Wing,
1) Post 1438
2) 2 don't make a lynch in 5p. You'd still need me in that spot unless you NK'd me
3) ok. you said you had your mind made basically made up and I thought you were being honest. Guess not. But yeah, I think all town should be open to ideas in LYLO, so the fact that you consider me to be on the fence doesn't bother me any.
4) I know. It sucks but I'll do my best if that's what it comes down to. My goal is to be sure our next lynch is on scum. If we can be sure that Math is scum, I'm fine waiting a day to sort whoever is left. No lynch is still an option today or in 4p.
5) I did this in 1496.
6) Town, especially killthestory, as stated in 1496 and in killthestory's case, at daystart. I was including myself in "us".

No, I don't want your vote for Math. I want you to take firm, concrete stances on every player in the game. None of that "Math could be scum with either Elyse or Wingback" fence-sitting.

The only read that matters today from anyone is the person they vote and the person who is lynched. The only reason anyone has to know more is scum trying to decide whether to NK that person. The exception is if I'm going to be lynched otherwise or if I need to explain logic for my vote as I've done already IF I decide to vote math. The fact that you want more has me thinking you're already planning a NK if your buddy is lynched.

Thanks for the links though. That gives me so much less work and I should be able to get to that within 24 hours. Elyse, can you verify that Wing didn't miss any recent LYLO games of yours?

[Egg]

@Egg, bottomline, you said you'd be willing to vote Elyse today based on her confidence in the Mathblade push so I want your vote there.

That's nice.

Elyse, can you verify what I asked at the end of my last post?

[Egg]

Wing, why can't it be Elyse/BBMolla?

Elyse, why can't it be Wing/BBMolla? Why can't it be Math/BBMolla? (Can't remember if you answered the second one)

From my POV, that just leaves you and Egg. One of you are scum. If we lynch Mathblade today with you two hard-townreading each other, it's pretty much a loss at 3P. My focus is not on lynching "obvscum Mathblade," it's on figuring out which of you are town with an incorrect townread and which of you are scum playing the other.

This arguement can wait a day. Lynching scum is more important. We don't accomplish anything by doing this now.

For most of this day phase, I was leaning towards that scum being you. But the way Egg was fence-sitting on his read, not committing to anything, and in general being evasive has been sending all sorts of alarms that I no longer have the confidence I had in being scum

Weren't you using my recently completed game Adventure mafia against me earlier? Go back to that game and read my posts from the day or two just before the final one. I didn't want to give scum too much info there either, specifically my reads on zakk and Titus if I remember correctly. But that being said, you've already pried out basically all of my reads. The only thing I haven't given is which way I'm leaning between you and Elyse.

neither of you are attempting to read the other

I have no idea where this assumption comes from but you keep repeating it like it's important or something.

Asking BBMolla and KTS who they'd be willing to vote for won't win us the game because we need BOTH scum dead to win.

If they are town we need their votes. I actually liked that reach out.

[Egg]

Holy fuck this is getting frustrating. But ok let me respond again with more details of something that doesn't matter. Let me remind you what I'm putting so much time into is why Elyse is argued better than you in one post which I don't think says anything about alignment. Give me time.

[Egg]

This is a good point for the most part. While I think you certainly can get a feel for the kind of player someone is in just one game, things change over time that can affect a person's play. Even variables such as game size, playerlist, and type of game will affect play just as much if not more than a player's alignment. Bringing this up countered a big chunk of what you said in just one line. Again, does this make Elyse town? No, but it is a good way to respond to what you said.

2. The "spectacular" comment was literally because this game was deceased, dead, in the ground, and you came in and posted novels and brought it back. That's it. And if I was scum and you were town and you were getting it right, I would be pissed. I wouldn't compliment you.

This is a good point to an extent. I see where she's coming from and I absolutely see where this makes sense in context. If Elyse is scum though, maybe her team was in trouble and needed a shake up, so again, not necessarily town. Just a good arguement.

3. You say I was too receptive to your Egg scumread. Ummmmm???? I refuse to vote for him

I think this one is obvious. She showed where you were wrong (which scum can do too of course)

4. The thing is - I'm very confident Math is scum. Yesterday they mixed up their reads by saying "hiplop" (Hoopla) and I were scum together or something. I have to go back and check cause I don't remember exactly. It reeks as fake reads they couldn't keep track of. But do you think they'd fuck up how they were pretending to read their own scumbuddy? I don't. I think Math knows he fucked up and the only option left is to bus and have Math take someone down with him. (The fact that you are willing to lynch me today is ridiculous btw) I'm coming around to you as his scumbuddy because this all seems very pre planned. You asking me to switch to Math when it wouldn't happen, Math tying me to Hoopla, you doing a complete 180 and saying you're willing to lynch me today when Math basically scum slipped. It seems awfully suspicious.

States her choice for a lynch with reasoning. Everything here seems to make sense. Determining how genuine it is is another story and that's what I'd rather spend my time doing if we do end up in 3p with you, Elyse and myself like you mentioned. Stuff like this is pointless and a waste of time.

5. You say I always left Blank as a secondary scumread to Hoopla. This is correct. Me, Egg, and Grendel who is dead town all had Hoopla as our top scumread. The thing is though that once she was lynched, what was I going to do? Suddenly start scumreading someone else? Math is coming next anyway. So you can't argue me as scum for having Math as a secondary scumread because it makes sense for me to do as either alignment.

Again, self explanatory. Having more than one scum read happens for town and scum. It was pointless for you to bring it up and she did a good job of showing why whether she is town or scum.

I think you are missing something. If Math is my partner, I'd just vote no lynch and kill one BBMolla/KTS so red flags don't fly. Then when the other votes Elyse, Math and I would hammer. I don't need you in any spot to win as scum.

Your point was that you could no lynch today. That implies that someone is NK'd before we lynch anyone in your master plan.

It's the way you are being on the fence. I'm here in the game, consistently trying to garner information out of the town and making my motivations clear. The fact that you avoided the game thread for a day after you put your vote down on no lynch doesn't make your motives very clear to me. I'm also confused about your reads and your reasons for your reads. Have you re-read this game, thought about it, and re-assessed?

I "avoided" your walls yesterday and the day before because I was busy going for morning walks with my wife and son both days, visiting my grandparents, playing kickball basketball and poker, and just doing things that are more important in general. I do those things regardless of my alignment in games and when a game is wall after wall after wall or just page explosions, yeah I don't get around to reading it in the 15 or 20 minute breaks throughout the day where I'm looking at my phone. And no, I haven't re-read 60 pages. It's hard enough to keep up with the first time. I sure as hell don't hate myself enough to do it again.

Every read matters. I need to know more so I can figure out whether you are town or scum.

I'll open up either when I'm close to a lynch or when scum don't get any more NKs, whichever happens first. You've pried enough out of me already.

 There's no difference between losing the game today and losing it tomorrow. So, I have to figure out which of you or Egg are scum today.

Nah, we make the hard decisions when we have more info. if you are considering bbmolla or killthestory as scum or an egg/elyse team, fine. But if you think math is the second scum regardless, vote there.

[Egg]

And three posts all from Wing while I do that. Holy shit dude. I'm gonna charge my phone before I even try. Maybe even wait til late tonight because this is draining me

[Egg]

I've only skimmed since my last post (will read later), but that wasn't a slip from Wing. Calling it that is hyperbole just like calling mathblade confirmed scum was hyperbole. It's weird for Wing to 180 on me just because I didn't vote Elyse, but it's definitely not a slip.

[Egg]

Damnit Egg, I've seen how frustrating it is to get you to vote Elyse who you've been incorrectly townreading the whole game based on little more than above-average scumplay. I've outlined my reasons for why Elyse/Mathblade are the scumteam. BBMolla has pointed out why Elyse/Mathblade are the scumteam. KTS is voting Elyse. The one person who is townreading Elyse and who Elyse is buddying to is you. Based on that, why is it so hard for you to understand that I don't want you to get anywhere near LYLO? I don't trust you to vote scum. Sorry if that's offensive but this back-and-forth and reading past games of yours have convinced me that we figure this game out now or we're losing. Lynching obvscum today so you can get to LYLO isn't going to win us the game. I want us to win, not lose.

We seem to have a fundamental philosophical disagreement here. You can't just throw your hands in the air and hope that we win. We need to figure out all the answers, make a plan and implement it.

You're just misunderstanding the importance of making sure we GET to the next day. We absolutely have to be right with our next lynch or the game is over. I am completely shocked that you don't think I'm smart enough to look at everything again if we get another day and even more shocked that you want to risk not seeing another day over it. Assuming you are town, that is. It's an unneccesary risk to try to guess today and not go where we are more confident.

Given I've calmed down a little knowing that Egg is

town for sure

, I'm going to take a 10 min walk and come back and outline exactly why Elyse/Mathblade are the scumteam and why they need to hang. I'll answer all your questions in-depth as long as you are willing to read.

See, this is hyperbole too. You and Elyse are both doing it which is why it's hard to tell if you guys are town.

Didn't have as much time as I thought so I'll read the rest later

[Egg]

Both are hyperbole. Said that already.

We absolutely have to get both lynches right or we lose.

You and I agree on this.

[Egg]

Doing it your way is the mafia equivelant of a football reciever running before they've caught the ball. I don't want to drop the ball because my eye was on the endzone and not the ball.

[Egg]

1526 is exactly why Wing not voting Math makes no sense. Why would you not be willing to lynch someone you are just assuming is scum? Especially before my lack of Elyse vote when you weren't sure on Elyse.

 you've been in the game from the beginning and Elyse crafted her game around you to get you to townread her, and possibly because I spent a good portion of D3 pushing you.

I wasn't even a threat to hypothetical Elysescum early in the game. I wasn't active and I haven't played a ton with her. Why would she craft her entire game specifically to me? You can't possibly believe half the shit you're spewing.

Look at the game from an unbiased standpoint. If you're trying to decide which way you are leaning between me and Elyse, look at the amount of sheer man-hours I put into reading you. Calling you scum, then second-guessing my read based on your responses, scumreading you again for that claim to vote yourself, finding a scumgame where you did just that, then reading over two hundred posts of an ISO you linked me, seeing that the catchup mode and calling scumteams is a feature of your townplay, then re-assessing that and deducing that you a) wouldn't so blatantly tie your buddy Masq to a townie, and b) you wouldn't show up with Blank at five votes and ask what's the case on him if you were scum with him, and then finally coming down to you as town and Mathblade/Elyse as a scumteam. I doubt any scum player on site would be able to fake that level of read development. Even now, I had misgiving about your posting until I saw Elyse's response to me and concluded that it was Elyse/Mathblade.

This is a fair point. You've done a shit ton of research and why bother as scum? I mean for town cred obviously, but still. That's a ton of work just for "lol towncred".

Contrast that with Elyse's read on you.

She's just reading you as town because she needs you as an ally.

When I posted my case on you, she pretended that I had some good points but kept townreading you encouraging me to bring up more points so it's set as a you vs me without Elyse committing to the argument. It's the easiest read ever.

You tell me to be unbiased and then say things like the bolded...

Now, she's pointing out nonsensical stuff like "scumslips" when it was extremely obvious from context that I was trying to figure out which of was Mathblade's partner and that your non-hammer showed me that it was Elyse.

Scumslip is a ridiculous phrase to use there. I don't disagree with that. But the point she was making is that the only person who should see me as confirmed town is Elyse if she's even town. So saying you know I'm town is hyperbole and she matched it with hyperbole of her own. That's why I'm so frustrated. One of you (hell possibly both) is probably town and using manipulative persuasion techniques and can't own up to it. I mean it's too late now but if one of you had been like "yeah that's what I was doing, sorry", I'd probably town read that.

If you are so sure that MathBlade is scum and BB/kts are town that you're willing to consider Egg conftown by not hammering me, you should've been voting MathBlade this entire day.

^this. 100% this. Like if you (Wing) were a cop and came in with a guilty and were like "but let's lynch someone else", everyone would tell you you're bat shit crazy. Well, that seems to be about the level of confidence you are claiming with your mathblade read and yet you want to lynch Elyse.

@EggI am willing to lynch MathBlade over Wingback today BUT Wingback scumslipped and there's a 1% chance it could be like BB or something.

I don't know. I haven't ruled out you being scum yet and I think bbmolla has more than the 1% chance you mention. Is no lynching still worth it? I feel like there's still info to be gained as much as Wing is trying to make sure there isn't (whether intentional or not). At the very least, I feel like you and I are on the same page with how late game should be played and no lynch is very standard here. I'd rather have the extra info to work with than lose the game because whoever is town in this mess can't get organized and work together.

Wait. I just realized something skimming those meta links. Were none of those games where Elyse was town? Has she not been to LYLO as town or did Wing specifically pull scum games?

To Wing's 1531:
1) Nah, you're trying too hard to fit your narrative here. It's hard to say for sure because I wasn't there, but the "one game" arguement sounds better than your "meta match" arguement. Either way though, I didn't say Elyse was town for this. Simply that I felt she was winning the arguement. And the only reason we're discussing this is because you said you needed it to read me so it's even more pointless now than it was then.
2) All semantics and as pointless as point 1.
3) Oh, ok, yeah. I get you now. But you're assuming you know what killthestory would do which I still don't like. But you seem to believe it enough that maybe you're being honest here. Hmm... If our disagreement is strictly playstyle, which I'm not ruling out, you really need to convince me of that. Don't use hyperbole or talk to me like I'm dumb because I don't want to mislynch you for the loss just because we can't see eye to eye. It's not an easy decision. Don't pretend it is.

I don't like anything about Wing's interactions with killthestory on page 62 for what it's worth. Predicting where killthestory will vote sounds like scum mindset and the "blacklist" arguement is more semantics. Even when killthestory votes Wing, the reaction to the vote is very caught off guard and it feels like scum who thought they were in control until then.

Wing, I think everyone knows what you are saying as far as lynching Elyse before Math. What Elyse, myself, and now killthestory are trying to figure out is why the hell you think it's a good idea and can't comprehend that it's not.

Killthestory's 1562 is actually a very good point. Why would mathblade make that post as scum with Elyse? I also agree with 1564 that 1563 makes no sense. And the obvious answer to 1565 is that scum opportunism exists and momentum matters.

I'm equally certain Elyse and Mathblade are scum. In fact, slightly more certain on Elyse given the N1 shenanigans where cmit tried to target her and failed. I think it could point to a scum ascetic role of some sort. Roleblocking cmit of all people seems unlikely.

Night 1 is actually worth revisiting. I forgot about it. Didn't cmit, masq, and grendel ALL claim failed N1 actions? Or was it just masq and cmit. If it was just the two, cmit being blocked does actually make some sense, especially if he said something that made it obvious he's a power role. It feels like this was all months ago for some reason and I'm very fuzzy on it.

Talk to me about your read on Elyse.

I'm not willing to lynch Elyse at this time.

Hoopla'a premise of a rolestopper may not be completely wrong (in which case Math would have to be that rolestopper given it would have been used on Elyse N1). In that case, lynching Math might be more optimal.

Rolestopper actually makes as much sense as roleblocker and if mathblade were to flip that, cmit's intended target (was is Elyse?) would have to be scum, right? That would make tomorrow easy.

@EggI use hyperbole all the time. It's a habit I should probably shake. But Wingback declaring you town by not voting me uses the assumption that MathBlade must be scum. If he's making this assumption as town, then there's no reason for him to not be voting MathBlade at first. Or he knows that we are not scum together because he's scum, meaning his declaration of you as town is correct.

Hey look, the exact thing I said in this very post I'd townread if one of Wing/Elyse said it. Hmm.

So conclusion tl;dr stuff is I want to either no lynch or lynch mathblade.

Preview edit:

@Egg, if you are incapable of distinguishing between someone trying to read you and someone buddying you, you need to re-assess how you are developing your reads.

If you are incapable of speaking to me like I'm a human being with a functioning brain, you need to re-assess how you are attempting to persuade me to work with you.

[Egg]

Math (I'm responding to 1602), are you saying that the pointless pissing match between Elyse and Wing as scum buddies is what makes a ton of sense? Because my point was more that that sounds so ridiculous that the only way you can be town is if BBMolla is scum with one of them.

Have you even thought why in the world I would resist Math's lynch if I were scumpartners with her instead of taking the safer play, bussing and then going after a mislynch? 

If you could get a win today as scum, why wouldn't you? But you're talking like I've decided you're scum or something. Why is that?

I'm not saying she came into the game crafting her play around appealing to Egg. I'm saying at some point, the two of you coalesced on your reads and started townreading/defending each other. Then it makes sense to continue to buddy you instead of losing the one ally she had. D3 was pretty much you/Elyse/Grendel in a bloc together. She knew she had to kill Grendel which pretty much just leaves you to keep in her pocket.

I could see that.

You saw what KTS is like. It astounds me that you are comforable with a troll deciding a game that we've all spent hours of mental energy into. I'm not doing no lynch but I'll go for Mathblade. I think that's the point where we should compromise.

The first two sentences contradict the third. Think about it if you are town but don't reply to this. Seriously. If you are town, stop and think. Then reconsider the no lynch. As far as reading Elyse goes, I don't think we need to discuss it further today now that you are voting mathblade. Feel free to pick up where we left off if we make it to 4p or 3p though.

I want to echo killthestory and Elyse in saying Wing didn't "catch" mathblade. Math replaced Blank who has been discussed for a lynch since Day 1.

[Egg]

Vote no lynch

I still want to do this. I don't see any result that hurts us.

[Egg]

Should I just blatantly tell you what I'm trying to accomplish or is the risk of jeopardizing it not worth it?

Just think about it. You're smart enough to figure it out.

[Egg]

Scum's best play is to NK killthestory and we can do all of this without having to deal with him. If they kill anyone else, it helps us solve the game. It's a win/win.

[Egg]

Also, I opened the day voting no lynch so don't act like it's something new. Lynching mathblade would be the compromise if I couldn't get a no lynch.

[Egg]

If you're so sure I'd vote you over Elyse and you're town, shouldn't you be thrilled at the idea of me dying at night?

Killthestory is more widely townread than I am anyway. Like from mathblade or bbmolla's point of view, me/elyse probably still makes sense.

[Egg]

Unvote

It's almost 2AM. I'm going to bed. I'll re-evaluate when I wake up keeping in mind the possibility that I'm the NK and what that means as far as our chances of winning vs losing.

[Egg]

I decided I want bbmolla' input.

[Egg]

V/LA until Saturday

Working 16 hours today and tomorrow. Can check in between shifts if the thread doesn't explode.

Also gonna be away Sunday because I work Saturday night until 7am then golfing at 10am like an idiot.

[Egg]

I want to echo killthestory and Elyse in saying Wing didn't "catch" mathblade. Math replaced Blank who has been discussed for a lynch since Day 1.

Given you refuse to vote Math, I don't think it's fair to say you "caught" Math.

1) I didn't make that refusal
2) I didn't claim to have caught math

Don't have time to read everything else.

[Egg]

That's annoying...

[Egg]

Expedience, Elyse and Rob looked wrong with their BBMolla suspicion, but not intentionally therefore town. Like they seemed to believe what they were saying but I didn't at all agree with it. Now, Molla being scum for other reasons was entirely possible, but Molla himself didn't look scummy either. So basically I was townreading Rob, Elyse, and BBMolla.

Yes, I've bussed as scum many times.

[Egg]

Yeah the game I put the most effort in semi recently may have been my SK game.

Also,

Vote no lynch

I'm not sure enough on mathblade to vote there today.

[Egg]

Elyse/kill/math, if you are town, don't rule out Wing/Expedience. I haven't found a good reason they can't be scum together yet.

[Egg]

So today is basically about "are we absolutely certain mathblade is scum?"

Wing, you're saying you town read Expedience for not seeming like scum with mathblade. How surprised would you be if the team was Elyse/Expedience? Please forget about mathblade when answering.

[Egg]

Good points.

Elyse, thoughts on Wing/Expedience?

Math, thoughts on...well... basically any team?

[Egg]

Elyse don't you think Wing would be more likely to take Expedience to LYLO than me if he's scum?

[Egg]

True. A lot of his play yesterday could have even been testing the waters to see if he can take me or not. Like there was no reason for all of that discussion before no lynching and the assumption that I won't ever vote you was weird.

I'm probably ok with lynching mathblade. I'm just paranoid about the bbmolla/expedience slot...

[Egg]

What I said:
I'm probably ok with lynching mathblade

What Wing heard:
Let's lynch Wing just for the hell of it.

[Egg]

So you want me to tell scum who I'd vote tomorrow before they have to decide whether to keep me around? Sorry, but that's dumb. Like I said, today is the "is mathblade definitely our lynch?" day. That's pretty much it.

[Egg]

Wing, why didn't you vote Elyse instead of mathblade today?

[Egg]

Oh. I feel like pointing out that Elyse and I didn't quickhammer mathblade so if anyone still had doubts there's that.

[Egg]

That's why you make the vote sound good just in case that happens. There's a preview edit button too.

[Egg]

*shrug*

I'll just prove it over again after Elyse eventually does vote. Or someone else. Either way.

Also worth pointing out that and Elyse/Expedience team can be ruled out eventually if math and wing keep their votes on each other. It would be confirmed that at least one of math/wing is scum.

Preview edit:
And there's Elyse, so the game would be over now if it was us.

[Egg]

oh my god

what if it's expedience/wingback

Lol. You're just now wondering this?

[Egg]

Nah I don't think so anymore.

At first the sudden "Ok I'll vote Elyse " made me think they were scum together, but then there's no reason to switch to me when MathBlade is an easy lynch.

What do you think about that?

Agree. Only other possibility is Wing is scum who reacted weirdly to my question about why he voted math over you, but even that doesn't require math to be town and your explanation makes more sense than that anyway. I don't think my opinion has changed with Wing's vote change.

[Egg]

The biggest problem right now is the three votes being on different players. Someone is voting town guaranteed. If town is voting town, scum can win simply by getting online at the same time.

[Egg]

Actually, that might only be true if Expedience is scum.

Elyse/math can't because Wing is voting Elyse.
Elyse/wing (lol, but covering all possibilites) can't because math is voting wing.
Math/wing can't because Elyse is voting math.

So expedience being scum is still the only thing we have to worry about right now.

[Egg]

Vote mathblade

[Egg]

Wing, any team not involving math has already won if the votes stay how they are. The best thing we can do is just lynch math now.

[Egg]

Or if expedience wants to hammer that's cool too

[Egg]

Mathblade is scum or we've already lost though.

Also not sure how I'm "all over the place" but ok lol

[Egg]

If it were math/expedience, all they need to do is get online together and vote you or elyse. Why even give them that opportunity? Being "100% confident" is unnecessarily cocky at this point.

[Egg]

And you don't know where I'll vote in LYLO. Quit acting like you do or like I'm some newb who has never played before. I've heard your arguements. I'm not skipping over it just because I'm not talking about all 2 million of your words. I don't see how you think I've played badly. We've lynched one scum and I voted masq from the very beginning. I had to twist your arm to make a standard play and no lynch at 6p LYLO. Now we have a very good chance to hit scum today and my vote is there and yours isn't. I want to lynch math now because I know no one's reads are perfect and if we are lynching math anyway (we are unless scum fucks us), why wait and give a potential math/expedience team a chance to win? Your condescending attitude is the biggest thing that will hurt us in this game especially if you and elyse are both town. It's not impossible.

[Egg]

Sometimes I legitimately wish I was the kind of person to feel ok about replacing out of games. People make mafia such an unbearable game to play.

[Egg]

Elyse is not town. Expedience is.

Maybe. But mathblade is very likely the scumbuddy of whichever of them it is. The game would almost certainly be over otherwise.

[Egg]

Yeah my fault wing. Should have been bowing down from the beginning. You're just better than me at life.

[Egg]

Yeah my fault wing. Should have been bowing down from the beginning. You're just better than me at life.

If you can't see how manipulative Elyse's posts on this page are, I don't know what to tell you.

You telling me over and over that I'm townreading Elyse doesn't make it true.

[Egg]

My read on Elyse? Wasn't the last time I stated a read on Elyse like Day 2 or 3?

Haven't I said repeatedly that I'd re evaluate everying if I was in 3p?

Didn't I say going into yesterday that killthestory was my only strong read?

Wow. Just wow.

[Egg]

How dare I consider all possibilities in LYLO... unthinkable.

Math, it's not wing/elyse. they'd have hammered you when I voted.

[Egg]

^yeah, that. As soon as Wing posted after my vote, he was confirmed as:
1) town
2) scum with math.

So from math's point of view, wing should be confirmed town yet math calls wing scum.

[Egg]

Actually, one post from expedience not containing a vote would confirm math as scum.

We'd have:
-Egg, confirmed town
-Wing and Expedience, can only be scum with math
-Elyse, can only be scum with math due to the above.

So it would be as good as a cop guilty. Actually, to go a step further, mathblade is confirmed scum from expedience's point of view if expedience is town.

[Egg]

Not even surprised Wing was F-16. I've never been more motivated to stop playing mafia than I am now after dealing with him.

That being said, a possible F-16/Elyse team could have hammered mathblade when I voted there and the game would have been over. To F-16's replacement, an Egg/Elyse team had opportunities to hammer for the win on Days 4 and 5. It has to be mathblade.

I won't vote until everyone posts, but I expect this to be one of the fastest 3p LYLOs I have ever been in.

[Egg]

No, he'd have been modkilled for playing against his win condition. He acknowledged that he could have ended the game as scum. Not doing so is very clearly playing against his win condition.

[Egg]

What's a mod kill to a person who knows they would be banned anyway?

My point wasn't that he'd be afraid of a modkill. It was that a modkill didn't happen. If he was scum, Elyse and Masq deserved the win the moment I voted you.

Or Wingback was afraid of a quick Unvote

That's what preview edits are for.

 if you are scum then you have played a brilliant end game.

Nah, I'd have passed up opportunities to win with hammers just like F-16. Either it's you or scum played against their win condition.

[Egg]

Vote mathblade

If this is wrong, scum already should have won and F-16 trolled for no reason. I don't think it is though.

[Egg]

No way

[Egg]

Oh. So you were scum. Good

(I might end up not seeing then)

=(

[Egg]

I just realized my last post combined with what I've been saying sounded pretty final. I meant for today I might not see because it's a busy RL day (baby coming?). I'm not leaving the site. Just mafia for now.

Sorry math, I'm usually fine with some trolling but this one felt personal because of F-16 so I had more of a need to know than normal and I got frustrated. Good game town. I wish I'd continued to enjoy it. Elyse, well played. I still don't know if you'd have won in 3p or not but it's entirely possible I'd have voted Expedience over you. My goal was to get scum to take F-16 and myself because as frustrating as he was, he was obvtown and 3p would have been easy with him.

[Egg]

Math, you did fine. It was only if F-16 was scum that would have meant he wasn't playing to his win condition because he posted, acknowledged he could have hammer, and continued posting. You replaced into a tough spot, your slot being close to a lynch more than once before you even got here. And process of elimination made your slot pretty obvscum regardless of who the player was. But I absolutely love the fact that you never gave up and tried to pull it out. The site needs more players like you.

[Egg]

To be fair, that was probably the best I've ever seen it used. This is coming from someone who is usually against RQS. It is usually used by town with good intentions, but it usually leads nowhere and distracts everyone. If everyone focuses on it instead of voting, the game stalls and no reads are developed. But the backlash against it, Masq's answers, and the following analysis were actually pretty useful here. I won't tell you how to play but those are my thoughts.