Light and Darkness (Mini 1810) - Game Over!

[BTD6_maker]

This is my pregame post.

[BTD6_maker]

30 to lynch? It should be 7. There are only 13 players.

[BTD6_maker]

VOTE: BTD6_maker
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VOTE: BTD6_maker
VOTE: BTD6_maker
VOTE: BTD6_maker
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VOTE: BTD6_maker

L-1

VOTE: Creature

Vote spamming.

[BTD6_maker]

town enough for now: 3 names
i'm going to call him town until I have an actual read because i am feeling super grateful to him right now: 1 name
sure why not: 1 name
exists: 2 names
meh: 2 names
eh: 1 name
ugh: 1 name
scum I guess: iraonavp

Will you name names?

[BTD6_maker]

Mod, why are there 30 to lynch? Won't that mean no one ever gets lynched?

[BTD6_maker]

Yes, and anyone votes anyone for being silly in RVS, which is in itself silly.

RVS in itself is silly.

[BTD6_maker]

Mod, I will be V/LA until the 4th due to a flight.

[BTD6_maker]

In the first post there was really nothing much to say at all.

[BTD6_maker]

I would take Iraonavp's comment as Town if anything. Surely a scum would know that Light and Dark were both Town. Of course, it is obvious that Town could know that, and scum could fake ignorance of the rules. Still, I take it as mildly Town.

[BTD6_maker]

I would take Iraonavp's comment as Town if anything. Surely a scum would know that Light and Dark were both Town. Of course, it is obvious that Town could know that, and scum could fake ignorance of the rules. Still, I take it as mildly Town.

thats not the argument at play here, they are saying scum aren't very aware of the fact that there ARE two towns or are not thinking about it freshly like that.

The thing that was quoted doesn't seem a glaring slip at all. He just said "oh he had claimed a confirmable town role" and that was taken as "WHAT DO YOU EAN CONFIRMABLE TOWN THERES TWO TOWNS"

like its completely out of proportion. I do agree if he had posted something else that showed a clear ignorance of Light/Dark that could be more of a scumslip, (maybe something along the lines of ONCE ALL THE SCUMS ARE DEAD WE WIN HEAUHUAHUA. idk)

I was trying to say that scum would be MORE knowledgeable aabout the light/dark mechanic, not Town.

Also, how was that extremely scum-sided WIFOM?

[BTD6_maker]

that screams of insider information

theres no way in hell a town role pm lead you to the conclusion that scum would know more about the Light/Dark than town. If anything scum don't care about our Light vs. Darkness balance tension and just want to play a normal scum game and win when theyre equal numbers

Scum are far more likely to have the full picture of the game than Town. Scum are the INFORMED minority, while Town is the UNINFORMED majority.

[BTD6_maker]

right now: 1 name

This is obviously me.

This is the post everyone has been reading in some way or the other. Frankly, I don't see anything AI in it at all. This is obviously just a pre-game joke, without much game relevance. Perhaps scum are looking to provide fake reasons for a fake read. This is just a theory, and a weak one at that, but it's worth pointing out.

[BTD6_maker]

VOTE: BTD

Please explain why you think my ISO is bad.

[BTD6_maker]

Sorry. My Internet was down for some time.

Anyway, you can expect me to be more active from now. I will probably be ISO diving everyone.

[BTD6_maker]

Creature first. This ISO was filled almost entirely with short one-liners so not much to say.

If you can read him, that's great, he's a huge lynchbait.

who is the him in this post referring to? Can't tell who you're talking or about whom. help?

BTD6_Maker

To say I am "huge mislynch bait" is a bit of an exaggeration. For a period I perhaps took on a few too many games to invest fully in all of them but by now things have eased up a little.

Nah, he's a nullread and I am thinking we should lynch anyway so we don't have to worry about him later.

VOTE: BTD6_Maker

L-2

Lynching a nullread when some others are scummier (especially this early) is just terrible play. We lynch people most likely to be scum, not people who are nullreads. Policy lynches in general harm Town more than scum, as they are far more likely to be mislynches than scum.

Creature is weak scum, but may just be bad Town.

[BTD6_maker]

For some reason my IP was blacklisted. Anyway, it's fixed now. Here is a sample of MoI.

It's a confirmable town role so I'd prefer to confirm it later in the game as oppose to now.

Since this is a role-madness game pretty much most everyone is going to have a confirmable role. So ....

Ira gets scum points for immediately jumping to "She's Town" on the basis of that flimsy statement.

Whilst it is hasty to jump on the claim (a misunderstanding) it is also hasty to accuse someone of being scum purely based on noticing something like that.

This is extremely scum-aligned. He is using WIFOM logic to call me town-aligned because he knows that I am town-aligned.

I agree that players who call other players Town aligned for invalid reasons are likely scum.

Just as you did with calling immediately calling Ai Town aligned for reasons that have proven to not make sense from a Town perspective.

VOTE: Iraonavp

I do not agree. If someone calls someone scum for a reason you find invalid, they may have found the reason valid, or misnderstood, or many things. That does not necessarily make them likely scum. It equally makes them confused Town.

Phoneposting to say given Aihara's recent posts make me very happy with my vote and hope more vote accumulated.

Also want to say Spring is developing into a scum-read for me. "Who are my partners then" is a scummy argument as it presents that the scum read on Spring can't be valid if Murder can't name partners which is absolutely absurd given that this is Day 1. And her refusal to even acknowledge Aihara's recent scummy posts as such compounds it.

"Who are my partners then" may or may not work. You could say "Who are my partners then" and just answer with 11 possible names of partners. Associative tells do help even without flips but they are weak. Again, though, that does not make Spring scum.

I have a weak scumread on Spring. I avoided quoting any walls, though, as Internet here is rather slow so I do not want to make my posts huge.

[BTD6_maker]

When I said I weakly scumread Spring I meant MoI. That should hopefully clear up any confusion.

Rereading...

Spoiler: Thoughts

Plot does actually feel town for 16
Nacho is probably town for 31
I'm going to ignore Iraon's posts until I do a very large meta read that I am planning on him.
Vague town vibes from Creature, who I also need to meta read, though probably not quite as hard.
Ok, I understand where people are coming from on 44. I gave Aihara benefit of the doubt that her post would make sense, because if her role is not something like IC/friendly neighbor then that makes no sense to post. "Confirmable town role" to me reads like 'I can become confirmed town' when actually the meaning is that the role is typically town-aligned (or perhaps is necessarily town-aligned?) and can be confirmed. I won't share my thoughts, but I have my ideas on possible roles and if I am right then Aihara is town.
I will also have to do a large meta read on BTD...
Creature, BTD, and Iraonavp are all lynch bait, so let's be sure to have a good case on them that tries to ignore their sometimes scummy looking styles if we think they might be scum.
110 I now admit your understanding of the situation was reasonable
127 I know there have been conversations about Fate recently, so i am paying attention here now... This is a bit of a sheep. Nothing too concerning so far though.
149 Jason's posting seems logical here, though I'm not sure if iaraon is scum or town yet
Trying to hold off judgement on 179...
218 (note to self) SS not saying anything here is interesting...
Fate backs up the MOI read with a vote in 257, so maybe it legitimate.
274 I don't think that they would know that actually. I'm taking note of the BTD defense on iraon.
276 Note to self to pay special attention to this post.
280 Well he also didn't consider that it would be potentially dangerous to claim his alignment.
290,295 Note to self to remember these too...
302 this is a silly post
What happened between 352 and 372,

Fate

? Don't just say "the site went down and I did a reread," what specifically changed in your mind between these posts.
384 Plot this post was a joke...
389 Note to self to reread this in depth later.

VOTE: Fate

I think I agree...

I don't think we should be wagoning BTD for the reasons you guys currently are.

You were definitely right on the last point, and I can see your points make sense here.

Welcome to playing a game with MURDERCAT, I like to sheep day 1.

Sheeping Day 1 is really not always a good idea, especially if you weakly Townread someone. If you scumread someone, though, it can add more power to your vote in terms of pressuring.

On other days I normally have strong opinions about who I think is scum. Sometimes on Day 1 I have strong opinions and I don't sheep, but until then I sheep and let wagons form and dissolve. My late game analysis is a lot of analyzing day 1 wagons.

Again, try to form opinions as fast as possible and follow them, even if very weak.

(Also, the 4 people I think seem kind of scummy and/or connected are all voting together so that's a pretty good sign I'm wrong.)

Also, it is not all that uncommon for scum to coordinate occasionally, especially if the site meta is to read coordinators as not all scum. Do they seem to be associated?


My read for Murdercat is very weak Town, but a confused Townie.

[BTD6_maker]

This is the current wagon, so I'm doing it first. McMenno has replaced in so there is not much to say of note. I will do Aihara separately.

Mod, should I declare V/LA? My Internet access is unpredictable here.

Oh, and I saw that my predecessor said that I have a "confirmable town role"? Well, it's a bit more complicated than that. On odd nights it is, on even nights it isn't confirmable. That's all I will say about that.

I am trying to understand how this fits in with what Aihara said, and whether the contradiction is scummy. If by confirmable role you mean PR (not in the mason/IC/friendly neighbour sense) then I can understand the confusion and your claim seems believable. Perhaps Aihara was confused about whether the role was confirmable or not.

Not much else to say. I will have to read Aihara before deciding on a read.

[BTD6_maker]

As for the Vedith wagon, Vedith has been rather inactive in this game (I know, so have I) but there is not that much actually scummy about him. However, what pings me is how he dismissed the Aihara/McMenno wagon as "terrible because it's not scum" as if he knew from the beginning that Aihara/McMenno was Town. He also refused to give any reasons for what was supposedly a strong Townread on the biggest wagon. If you are going to try to stop a wagon, it is generally best to give reasons to convince others. Anyway, it seems like he was just trying to say how he hated the wagon for the Towncred when McMenno flips.

Overall, apart from that (which is rather weak) not much is that scummy so Vedith is currently a weak scumread of mine. It's not strong enough where I would be willing to vote him, though.

[BTD6_maker]

as if he knew from the beginning that Aihara/McMenno was Town.

It was easy to know that McMenno was town. I'm shocked that others didn't see it.

Then why not give reasons for your Townread?

[BTD6_maker]

However, note that scum get fakeclaims. This means that a claim would never get challenged, and a person would probably be lynched regardless of their claim. Scum gain nothing by claiming, and in fact it mostly does not matter whether someone claims or not. Besides, by your logic anyone refusing to claim gets huge Towncred, which gives scum an incentive not to claim.

If this is your only reason, it's a bad reason.

I'm feeling better about this wagon.

VOTE: Vedith

[BTD6_maker]

Why don't you actually back it up with proper reasons?

And yes, I am actually reading the game and forming real reads and am not typing garbage. If you think my points are garbage, give reasons for it. If you are Town, you should be able to state WHY you think what I am typing is garbage, as well as why McMenno had a Town mindset for not claiming.

[BTD6_maker]

Why don't you actually back it up with proper reasons?

And yes, I am actually reading the game and forming real reads and am not typing garbage. If you think my points are garbage, give reasons for it. If you are Town, you should be able to state WHY you think what I am typing is garbage, as well as why McMenno had a Town mindset for not claiming.

Define proper reason. My reason for him being town was a proper reason.
You voting me is not a proper reason. You are voting me because I was against the lynch.

I am actually voting you due to your lack of a good reason for doing so. I will not simply vote for anyone against a lynch.

You obviously are not reading the game, and you typing garbage, but I'll accept as my opinion rather than fact.
The reason I believe you are typing garbage is because you have no idea what to say so you are trying to wing it. Other than that, I'm not sure why I would know you are typing garbage.

What I am typing is not garbage. Why do you think I have no idea what to say, especially when you are wrong and I do indeed know what I am saying?

The reason it was a town mindset is because he was obviously hinting at a strong power. I do not see scum refuse to claim, because it will lead to a lynch more than not, and it's too easy to fake claim as scum.

Why can't scum refuse to claim? Not claiming or claiming in this game will not affect the chances of your being lynched as scum have mod-given fakeclaims. Refusing to claim will lead to your lynch as often here as claiming will. Also, if not claiming gets people like you to say that this is a Town mindset, scum have an incentive.

Your argument may be that they can be counter claimed... However, that gives 1 - a PR role, since the scum is going to be lynched regardless, 2 - A fake role from mod to help with counter claim, 3 - A more thought out role which can be questionably counter claimed.

This is not my argument. I know that scum get fakeclaims so scum will never be counterclaims, and can be lynched just as easily without them.

As I said though, your argument continued to imply my thought process was anyone else refusing to claim should be town. Wrong - Anyone else refusing to claim in this game should be seen as null on that basis, then followed up with what else you have.

I meant anyone else IN GENERAL. Obviously after your points and my points have been made there is no reason to, but by your logic people in general (in the absence of our pointing it out) would get Towncred and scum, knowing this, can easily refuse to claim.

1 thing I can say about this game is there is nothing going on. There is little questioning going round, little discussion on who else can be scum, no discussion on the flip apart from our conversation (and given I am guilty of this as much as everyone else), but we are feeding into the scums hand with a quiet day. Quiet town = Scum win imo.

So, I ask you, apart from me, who is scum for you?

[BTD6_maker]

Vedith is right about McMenno and it doesn't make sense to repeatedly shut down his counter wagons if he is scum-aligned.

It makes perfect sense as scum. Consider this scenario. Scum Vedith knows that all of his scum partners are on this wagon. He wants to split the scumteam with respect to wagons (so Town don't see three people always voting the same person). Naturally, he opposes the wagon, knowing that his scum partners will try to ensure that the wagon reaches a lynch.

P.S. Vedith, if you really Townread McMenno that much, give another reason. Your only reason so far is arguable at best and invalid at worst.

[BTD6_maker]

A sample of SpringLullaby's Day 2 meta.

Ok, so I've decided that Creature and I aren't best buddies but I feel he's probably still legit town.

Other than that, I'm still thrown by the Aihaira flip so I have to reread. I need to reassess other reads other than Fate whom I'm still wary from.
Also, I wonder about the no kill night.

Spring claims to be "thrown" by the Aihara flip. Now, it is perhaps logical that a Light player would be less thrown by a person they thought was scum flipping Dark (it can still benefit their faction) than a Dark player (hurting their faction significantly). A scum player could possibly be faking this but it could also be genuine, so I am leaning "not Light Town" on this. It is probably unlikely that a Light would be faking it.

Well, I think Vedith is more scum than not, his argument about why he though McMenno=town smells like poneypoop.

McMenno's logic to justify why he didn't want to claim was obviously flawed: town claiming their PR is better, and it's harder for scum to claim than it is for town. Not claiming in most case is antitown.
--> Vedith must agree to some degree since he states would himself claim in a similar situation (a).
--> So why Vedith thought McMenno's refusal to claim was town?

His reason is that McMenno was obviously a "strong power", and interestingly he guessed at doc.
--> Between claim stalling scum and noob town, he chose the later.
--> He justifies this by claiming that scum never refuse to claim (which is btw, false).
--> Then defend McMenno's logic while himself must disagree to some degree because of a.

> Nowhere does he justify why the thinks "strong powers" shouldn't claim, which is his stated differentiating factor for town not to claim.
> I'll tell you what kind of people are afraid of lynching docs: scum.

I can understand this point. Indeed, it is similar to my arguments I have already made. I am inclined to read Spring as Town for this as it seems that Spring comes from the same viewpoint (and alignment) as I am. (By alignment I mean Town/scum, not Light/Dark).

Of course, this could be Spring trying to white knight me by appearing to agree with my points and opinions to gain my favour. At the moment I consider it unlikely, but I will remain alert to this.

Plotipus, have you truly never seen scum fake life circumstances before? It's textbook appeal to emotion.

Do you find it really hard to believe that town may question what can possibly make a player not be able to read D1 in particular?

Especially when it leads to you claiming that you "feel" I made comment about "many" people's alignment, and "implied several other", whereas it's just plain untrue and verifiable if you went back to check. I mean, should I just give you a pass here?

Also, I very much doubt you can guess who I think is in my town.

I’d like a link to that hydra game please.

----
As for your stance on alignments, your reasoning is just plain wrong but you are right about my numbers on mass alignment claim, they are wrong.

I was thinking about - assuming even distribution of scums’ alignment (fake) claims - the number of scums in each towns, and random lynch chances, at the same time, and it came out jumbled together.

The correct numbers are 1.5 scums in 6.5 townies; which would practically translate into 2/7 or 1/6; 2/7 being an improvement over 3/13.
If scums actually all want to claim the same alignment then the improvement in the probability of hitting scum is of 3/8 over 3/13.

So yeah, alignment claim is disputably hurtful to the light/dark wincon, but it is absolutely helpful toward the antimafia wincon.

1) I think it’s scummy that you try to confuse the two.
2) I think it is scummy that you’re up playing the rivalry between the two towns this early.

If you are town, it just reveals what is basically the evil in your own heart, which is that you care more about your alignment wincon than your antimafia wincon. If you are scum, it’s easy to see how antagonizing the two towns is good for you.

In any case, I’m stressing here that whether you are dark or light, it means nada right now because the scumteam is still all there. I mean sure, further your side of town to the best of your ability with your PR or whatever, but if you are out to lynch the other town it just makes scumhunting doubly hard.

---

So, now the main reason you think I’m scum is because I’m pressing you over real life issue, is that correct? And you are justifying this because you’ve never seen town do that?

Well,
a) You are wrong it is a scumtell at all because, me.
b) Everyone draws from past experience, but you have to pinpoint the underlying logic to a behavior being more scum than town for it to be a valid argument. You strike me as someone who knows how to do that, but aren’t doing it here. Why?

---

Right now, I think the outrage you took my questioning with is townish, although pure appeal to emotion. Basically because, like in MoI’s case, the amount of details sound genuine. (But here has to be a moratorium on that kind of stuff from now on because I'm at my limit.)

So, I'm truly sorry for you and your life circumstances, really.
I hope you get better.
But your scumhunting here is terrible.

----------------------------

On other stuff.

1) MoI continue to prove he doesn't actually read the game closely as it is false that my stance on Murdercat changed overnight.
2) Since no one actually seem to want to do it to save me the trouble as I hoped, I'll do a complete D1 reread for my next post.

As for my points on this wall, alignment claim is not that helpful to scumhunting. You do not need to know whether someone is Light or Dark is they claim a Town role; what you are interested in is whether they are Town or scum. Alignment claims are perhaps helpful if certain roles are based on alignment (one possibility is a Light/Dark Cop type role) but never on Day 1. Also, when someone claims real-life circumstances it is always best to assume good faith and assume it is NAI. I certainly hope a scum would not stoop so low as to fake circumstances and it isn't something to accuse people of. I know you weren't accusing but you raised the point so it is worth considering.

Overall, my read is weak Town, moderate Dark.

[BTD6_maker]

VOTE: Vedith

I'm feeling more confident about this lynch now.

Also, if anyone received a message from Creature during Night 1 they should probably claim it.

[BTD6_maker]

What is your theory

Well, I've played a game like this setup before, apart from it was Immortals and Mortals instead of light and dark.
In that, there were 2 scum teams, 1 for the Mortals and 1 for the Immortals. The Immortals could only kill other Immortal players and the Mortals could only kill Mortals... You get where I am going with this I assume.

Although, I would suspect some killing restrictions with 2 scum teams, like odd night killings for 1 and even night killings for the other.

How far fetched is it? Probably pretty far, but it could explain why Light and Dark take more of a part in the game than expected. And explain no kills if the wrong people were targeted.

I have my own theory. My theory is that you are likely scum. This is in my opinion probably the best explanation for the lack of NKs. I'm not 100% sure though, as killing restrictions are possible. This wagon should have been lynched yesterday.

[BTD6_maker]

My Internet is fine today, but I will have to resort to phone-posting if I post at all tomorrow. After that, my V/LA will end.

[BTD6_maker]

Jason, are you trying to say that protectives could not have been blocking the kills because they wou,d have claimed? That's a bizarre suggestion at best, essentially asking all protectives to claim. Wouldn't this be rolefishing?

[BTD6_maker]

and i don't believe we would have doctor's for all nights.

Reading is hard.

In case it's not clear though.

We have modifiers like odd/even active, so i don't believe that we would have doctors active every night, meaning it's likely that something like an RB/JK is out there, and if THEY had something i would expect a claim because anything would help with the extremely limited info we have.

Not to mention the fact that we are going no where fast today because of it.

In that case, anything would indeed help.

My role has a Roleblocker component. On Night 2 I roleblocked Vedith. This is why I am more confident in Vedith being scum. Of course, this is not 100% confirmed but I think it's likely.

[BTD6_maker]

I too don't quite understand how Jason is somehow less convinced that Vedith is scum after I claimed I roleblocked Vedith, especially as he was voting Vedith before this. Currently, after my roleblock, Vedith is the person statistically most likely to be scum.

[BTD6_maker]

I doubt that Arsonist is the only kill method. To me it is more likely that scum combines an Arsonist kill with a regular kill (or something similar) or, potentially, that Mafia have regular kills but an SK has Arsonist kills. Apparently Arsonist is a frequent type of third party. Also, I have reasons for doubting Arsonist-only kills.

[BTD6_maker]

Vedith, does your role allow you to confirm that you were Roleblocked on Night 2?

[BTD6_maker]

VOTE: SnarkySnowman

Phone posting here.

I found Snarky particularly scummy after his kill speculation, which seems to suggest prior knowledge. His recent attempt to justify it (kill speculation is not scumhunting) does seem like a backtrack. Also, now that Arsonist kills are highly likely, the result on Vedith doesn't make him scum.

This is L-1.

[BTD6_maker]

I'm back and out of V/LA, although yesterday I was focusing on my other game.

Anyway, I do believe the Snarky wagon is on scum. A claim from Snarky would certainly help.

Fate's claim is interesting. Fate claims a role which knows an Arsonist exists. It is of course possible that Fate or a partner is the real Arsonist. We should wait until a future day for more information before coming to any conclusions on this, though.

Fire Assassin seems mildly scummy from my perspective at the moment.

[BTD6_maker]

I'm back and out of V/LA, although yesterday I was focusing on my other game.

Anyway, I do believe the Snarky wagon is on scum. A claim from Snarky would certainly help.

Fate's claim is interesting. Fate claims a role which knows an Arsonist exists. It is of course possible that Fate or a partner is the real Arsonist. We should wait until a future day for more information before coming to any conclusions on this, though.

Fire Assassin seems mildly scummy from my perspective at the moment.

VOTE: BTD6_Maker

A naked vote like that reeks of OMGUS.

[BTD6_maker]

Iraonavp's recent posts suggest that he was hard-tunneling Snarky and forcing a claim, even going so far as to refuse to unvote until he claims. Then he switches to Murdercat with a naked vote as soon as people start unvoting.

Iraonavp is a moderate scum read of mine at the moment. Also, if, as Fate said, it is between me and Iraonavp, I know I am Town so Iraonavp is always the better choice for now.

VOTE: Iraonavp

[BTD6_maker]

Iraonavp's recent posts suggest that he was hard-tunneling Snarky and forcing a claim, even going so far as to refuse to unvote until he claims. Then he switches to Murdercat with a naked vote as soon as people start unvoting.

Pot kettle?
I mean, you were tunneling me and then did the same.
It can be said the same about me and Jason.

You also didn't mention L1 on your vote.

With strongly believing Ira is town I'm going going to sit and watch him mis lynched

VOTE: BTD

I strongly suggest others to follow this.
BTD role blocks me and there is no kill and he's not screaming to lynch me.
Giving up such information so easily you would expect from him being town to vote me with refusal voting else where.

I unvoted because of Fate's claim, which strongly suggests that an Arsonist exists and thus the No Kill after the roleblocking was meaningless and definitely not a Guilty on you. Without the claim you would be probable scum and I would be pushing you but with the claim you are no likely to be scum (at random) than anyone else.

Iraonavp, on the other hand, unvoted because the wagon wasn't going anywhere. This is a false equivalence you are making.

[BTD6_maker]

It looks like a lot has happened since my last post.

Firstly, Vedith has been using the fact that yesterday I checked a thread once and did not post in this one and turning it into blatant accusation. He is trying to say that that is sufficient to accuse me of lurking when that is not the case. There is a hige difference between checking a different thread and making a couple of posts and actively, deliberately lurking. Vedith is confusing the two. I would say Vedith is very likely scum but the deadline is approaching and it looks like there is not enough time to wagon Vedith. The deadline being a few days away is also partially what caused me to switch to the popular wagon, though I must emphasise that I was scumreading Iraonavp. I will post the link to a game once that game finishes.

Secondly, Iraonavp claimed. He claimed Light, which I think in this stage of the game is suboptimal to claim. Anyway, the word "Hope" in the neighbourhood is not indicative of Light or Dark. This leaves three possibilities:

1: Iraonavp is a Light Neighbouriser as he claims to be.
2: Iraonavp is a Dark Neighbouriser. Perhaps he and Vedith decided to claim Light because we have had two Dark deaths and Light is very likely in the majority. However, for this plan to work, it probably requires that Vedith is also Dark.
3: Iraonavp is a scum Neighbouriser. This is explicitly possible as Iraonavp is not confTown to Vedith.
4: Iraonavp is not a Neighbouriser and is fakeclaiming scum. If this is the case, Vedith is necessarily also scum.

Anyway, the claim does not make Iraonavp any more likely to be Town or scum. This lynch should happen today.

[BTD6_maker]

We know an Arsonist kill exists. This was probably responsible for the lack of kills on Nights 1 and 2. We also know that PlottinKittehs survived the night in order to be stumped today. Thus there was only one kill today despite 2 primes.

I know a roleblock is not a Guilty but it is the best we have and it comes close. Currently the most plausible reason for only one kill was that I stopped Vedith from priming. Given that I am already scumreading Vedith he is the most likely scum today.

VOTE: Vedith

Today we have solid evidence for Vedith being scum.

[BTD6_maker]

I did not block you because I cannot block you. My role includes an Even-Night Roleblocker component.

[BTD6_maker]

Your last two posts also stink of AtE. You are using these smileys to try and ridicule my case. It is not working and doesn't hide the lack of logic. Why does having an Even-night Roleblocker as part of my role make me "still scum"?

[BTD6_maker]

If that's why you use them then as soon as I point it out, the lack of logic is obvious. Can you explain how having an Even-night Roleblocker component in my role makes me "still scum"? At the moment it seems like you are making up AtE because you have no logic to back it up.

[BTD6_maker]

I will explain later why I switched wagons easily. There is a reason, but currently I am forbidden from talking about it.

Things are rarely as simple as that. It is entirely possible for scum to arrange for one member to push a certain person and another to defend that person, and so on. You are assuming that to a scum, all Townies are the same. In reality, a scum can push one Townie while defending another and do a whole range of things more complex than your supposed one-dimensional scum.

i am sure you planned this out with your partners.

[BTD6_maker]

What you forget is that I have evidence from my PR. This allows me to strongly suspect you of being scum while not having definitive partners for you. That quote was in reference to the tactic of defending one Townie whilst attacking another. If you planned it out that you would attack me specifically then it makes sense that you would deny doing so. Saying that I have nothing because I do not know your partners is blatant misrepresentation, especially when I roleblocked you and have evidence that you are scum.

Right now you are the only person to have PR evidence of being scum.

Snarky, I don't think it is optimal for me to claim alignment yet.

[BTD6_maker]

Weak-moderate Town: Murder, Ankamius
Null-weak Town: JasonWazza
Null-weak scum: Fate, Fire Assassin
Weak-moderate scum: Snarky
Confscum: Vedith

[BTD6_maker]

I have claimed Roleblocker and the only way we know of for there to be one NK tonight is for one prime to be stopped. Unless there is a Firefighter (and none have claimed) you being scum is the only way this can happen.

If there are any roles that may have stopped one of the kills, they should probably claim now. This is especially true for Firefighters.

[BTD6_maker]

Everyone has had a chance to claim whether they think they protected the kill. However, no one has claimed. Vedith is looking a lot more like a confirmed scum.

If someone else thinks they protected the kill, they should really claim.

[BTD6_maker]

If Murdercat is truthful then there are fewer Lights than Darks. This means that Lights must have stronger PRs to balance them. For now, I believe Murdercat.

Also, unless there is any definitive reason (e.g. Light/Dark Cop) no one should claim alignment until necessary.

[BTD6_maker]

Ira was better than some Darks, such as Creature and PlottinKittehs. MoI was a strong role, especially if he could hit a Light on D2. Overall, apart from Aihara/McMenno, the Light roles seem to be better than the Dark roles.

[BTD6_maker]

Ira was better than some Darks, such as Creature and PlottinKittehs. MoI was a strong role, especially if he could hit a Light on D2. Overall, apart from Aihara/McMenno, the Light roles seem to be better than the Dark roles.

McMenno could use his powers any night, not limited to days (he just couldn't do it 2 in a row). He has a much stronger power too... What the fuck are you on?

McMenno had a very strong power. However, apart from him, Dark powers were weak. I never said McMenno was limited to days. I said MoI was, because his action resolves at twilight.

Also, with 7 Dark and 4 Light, strong Light powers are a necessity.

[BTD6_maker]

There is a lot to analyse from these claims. We know a Backup Poison Doctor exists. Thus it is very likely that a Poisoner exists, regardless of whether a Poison Doctor exists.

UNVOTE: Vedith

You are scummy, but the Roleblocker evidence has been dismissed due to Fire's claim. I don't want to lynch you just yet.

[BTD6_maker]

Anyone remember this post?

Consider delayed kills like ass on its or poison or someshit

She got Arsonist correct and there was a big fuss before we dismissed it. Getting one kill method out of two is plausible. Getting two?
I am suspecting she was thinking of these two because she knew what the kills really were.

VOTE: Snarky

[BTD6_maker]

We don't know a Poisoner exists, but it seems very likely.

Assuming a Poisoner exists, my evidence on Vedith is that there was only one kill during a priming. With a Poisoner, that kill was very likely a Poison kill. Thus my evidence does not point to Vedith being scum.

[BTD6_maker]

Should everyone massclaim Poison Doctor?

I am not a Poison Doctor.

[BTD6_maker]

Plottin, what do you think about Snarky somehow guessing the two kill methods?
I know Poisoner is not guaranteed, but it's more likely than Poison Doctor.

[BTD6_maker]

If you have role-related information, you should claim it.

Also, the only information we had beforehand was that I Roleblocked Vedith. With protectives, non-delayed kills are plausible.

[BTD6_maker]

In that case I suppose I can leave Snarky for a moment. Right now the one person that's the best lynch is FA. For example, suggesting that I should be wagoned just because everyone was voting someone different. He has been scummy throughout the game. (Although initially most of it slipped past my radar due to tunnelling Vedith). This is the lynch that should happen today.

VOTE: Fire Assassin

[BTD6_maker]

What about Jason and Ankamius? It's clear that you think that that is the most likely scumteam. Can you give reasons for the scumreads?

[BTD6_maker]

Also, if anyone has issues with my wagoning yesterday, see Open 642. Regardless of my alignment there, anyone who plays through a game like that will want to wagon anyone. We had 6 weeks, and we No Lynched. Next day, we

still

No Lynched, and it cost Town the game.

[BTD6_maker]

I am not voting Vedith because after Fire's claim a Poisoner is likely. I had based my evidence on the assumption that scum ignited. Now that seems much less likely. I will not lynch Vedith today.

[BTD6_maker]

So Snarky is not claiming her role, yet expects us all to claim our alignment.

Claiming alignment at this stage is anti-Town.

[BTD6_maker]

Role claiming is probably positive here. Alignment claiming is probably less so.

I am an Odd Night Role Cop. On Night 1 I investigated Creature. On Night 3 I investigated Fire Assassin, and he is indeed a Backup Poison Doctor.
The disadvantage to my role is that if I investigate scum, I will receive their chosen fakeclaim as a result. Also, I receive roles instead of flavour so I cannot tell Light and Dark.

In short, my full role is Odd Night Role Cop, Even Night Roleblocker. I am not claiming alignment.

If I survive to Night 5, I should check Murdercat to find out whether the setup information is valid.

[BTD6_maker]

I must have misremembered.
VOTE: Vedith
In my opinion, Vedith seems scummy even ignoring my Roleblock.

[BTD6_maker]

Why did you claim Light?
I can't see any pro-Light reason for you to claim Light. It's pro-Town, but heavily anti-Light. Once scum die, you will be targeted by every Dark and Light will instantly lose.

Also, I doubt both the Even-Night and Odd-Night Light/Dark Cops are both Light. One Light and one Dark seems far more likely.

[BTD6_maker]

Has Snarky even claimed alignment? So much for telling everyone else to claim.

[BTD6_maker]

UNVOTE: Vedith

Even though he is scummy, mislynching him today will result in two Town deaths and a probable scum win. I'm not saying he shouldn't be lynched, just not today.

This game, especially today, has been very confusing. Role madness is madness.

[BTD6_maker]

There is an interesting possibility.
Suppose one of {Vedith, Ankamius} is scum. (Since I scumread Vedith more, I will assume it's him for argument's sake. The argument is the same if Ankamius is scum, with the names Vedith and Ankamius switched).
There is one unclaimed Light Town.
If they claim, then there is a 2/3 probability that Light is lynched and loses, and even if Vedith is lynched scum will likely kill Ankamius and the other Light). This is arguably pro-Town, but heavily anti-Light.
Thus, this Light would do better to remain unclaimed. Vedith won't dare kill Ankamius (as it makes him confscum) unless it wins immediately. Thus the Light is more safe from scum. The Light can claim once the other scum has been lynched. This is slightly less pro-Town, but definitely much more pro-Light.

This is a hypothetical that depends on one of {Vedith, Ankamius} being scum. It is of course possible that both are Town. However, any other Light (if there is any) would do best not to claim.

Snarky, Light is unkillable

for today

. Light is lynchable once one scum has been caught, unless both Vedith and Ankamius are scum. Also,

why did you ask everyone else to claim alignment when you won't yourself? That is the very definition of hypocrisy.

VOTE: SnarkySnowman

[BTD6_maker]

I believe Jason at this point. Suppose Jason was scum. I think it's unlikely that scum' fakeclaim would be Third Party so I doubt Jason would go with this as scum.

Thus, if Jason is not scum, Murdercat likely is. Murdercat being scum would also explain how 7-4-2 seems unbalanced in favour of Dark.

VOTE: Murdercat

[BTD6_maker]

To allow you and your partner to successfully hide. For example, it could allow both of you to pass as Dark safely.

[BTD6_maker]

The mod probably uses STFU to determine the roles and alignments. In this case Murdercat was "informed" before he was Town. In this case claiming Informed Townie doesn't make Murdercat any Townier.

Mod, did you use STFU (or a variant/adjustment thereof) to determine the setup?

[BTD6_maker]

I'm not saying Jason is confTown, but lynching Murdercat first is a good idea because Murdercat flipping Town gives us more information than Jason flipping Survivor. If Murdercat does flip Town, Jason is probably confscum but we also know that all of the setup information is 100% accurate.

Also, suppose Jason is scum. What incentive would he have for claiming Survivor, knowing it would make him confscum? A 1:1 trade is nearly always in Town's favour.

[BTD6_maker]

This post looks Townish. I doubt a caught scum would be able to fake this analysis. Also, Jason's analysis looks more realistic than Murdercat's claim in my opinion as I had assumed from the very beginning that Light and Dark had equal numbers of players.

[BTD6_maker]

Also, Vedith, Ankamius, and Snarky all claimed Light. If Murder is Town, that implies that one of them is confscum.

Jason, why do you scumread me and Fate?

[BTD6_maker]

Perhaps we should lynch the scummiest of the claimed Lights. There are 3 possibilities:

1: We hit scum.
2: We hit Light Town and the other Light Town does not die. This means there are at least 2 Lights still alive so Murdercat was lying and is confscum.
3: We hit Light Town and the other Light Town dies. We have a confscum in the Lights (the one that survives) and we know Murdercat was truthful so Jason is confscum.

Personally, I'm leaning towards Vedith. What do you think?

[BTD6_maker]

Again, why do you scumread me?

[BTD6_maker]

In that case, we should not lynch one of the Lights just yet, but possibly in the future. Today, however, Murdercat's lynch is essential.

[BTD6_maker]

Plot, do you see any reason for scum Jason to claim Survivor? Even if scum Jason was confirmed Light he would claim Light Town and not Survivor (which would practically be suicide). This is why I am leaning towards Murdercat being scum.

Ankamius, I agree. I had previously thought that both Vedith and Murdercat were Townish. Indeed, I thought Vedith was scummiest.

[BTD6_maker]

I meant both Jason and Murdercat, not Vedith.

[BTD6_maker]

Did you read 2025?

[BTD6_maker]

You're forgetting that I too have a brain.

Near the start of the game, I made a point. This point is worth making once more at this stage.

The very definition of the game of Mafia as it was invented was a conflict between an uninformed majority (Town) and an informed minority (scum).
Murdercat obviously purports to be the uninformed majority. However, it's highly unlikely that this uninformed majority would have full setup information (obviously outside Opens, which we are not in) and much more likely that the informed minority would be given that information, if anyone is. Even when certain members of the uninformed majority get information (certain roles such as Cop) it is almost always gradual and almost never given all at once.

If Murdercat was scum and was told the setup, he would have every reason to lie and subtly distort the figures to hide scum.

[BTD6_maker]

I'm wondering what Vedith's opinion of Snarky is at the moment. According to him, Snarky is your only viable partner, which I doubt.

[BTD6_maker]

Snarky, what do you think about Murdercat being scum?

[BTD6_maker]

Why do you think that? It's definitely better than the Jason wagon at the moment.

Murdercat's flip is crucial. If Murdercat flips Town we are in LyLo with one confscum and three possibilities for the other scum. We have good chances here.

[BTD6_maker]

The Arsonist has 2 primes already. After one mislynch even if the Arsonist ignites there are 3 Town and 2 scum.

[BTD6_maker]

Ignore that post. I got confused between all-night Arsonist and Odd-night Arsonist.

If there is an Odd-night Arsonist and an Even-night Poisoner then after one mislynch there willl be no kill, giving us another day to lynch scum. Given that there is a confscum after Murdercat's lynch, this is optimal. We do indeed "go to LyLo" where we lynch a confscum.

[BTD6_maker]

Previously, I thought that Lights must have very strong PRs to balance their lack of numbers. If Murdercat is correct, this is probably false. In that case, Dark are larger and have most of the strong PRs. Also, if Jason is scum he would have no reason to suicidally claim Survivor.

Murdercat, if Jason claimed Survivor, the fact that he chose Light is irrelevant. We have 3 claimed Lights. Can you pair up scum Jason with any of them?

[BTD6_maker]

No one has answered this yet.

What incentive does scum Jason have for claiming Survivor?

Also, Vedith, Snarky, and Ankamius should confirm their Light claim or back down. If any of them are fakeclaiming, they should claim the truth now. Murdercat's numbers don't add up.

[BTD6_maker]

THERES AN ARSONIST WE CANT JUST "GO TO LYLO"

Like it or not we are in MYLO.

Everyone needs to remember, towns get removed at one player.

The town has a total of 3 effective players to kill.

Given your analysis we have an Odd-Night Arsonist and an Even-Night Poisoner. After a mislynch today there will be No Kill and Town will survive. We can kill scum tomorrow after this.

[BTD6_maker]

I still think Jason and Snarky as scum.
Snarky's claim doesn't make sense for what we already have.

Jason shouldn't care who is being voted by desperately wants Murder lynched.

Jason does care. Given his Survivor claim the lynch is either him or Murdercat. If he is lynched, he loses instantly. If Murdercat is lynched, he stands much better chances of survival.

[BTD6_maker]

[*]Beacon of Hope - In this dark time of Zanos, your songs show that there is still hope and light in this world. On even nights, you may target a player to guide them (add) to your neighborhood. (You will receive the neighborhood pt link in a different pm.) Due to your constant traveling throughout the day, the neighborhood will only be open during the nights.

X has joined your neighborhood!

Y had added you to their neighborhood!

You were unable to add X to your neighborhood.

[*]Effectively, you are

Odd-Night Restricted Reporter Even-Night Neighborizer

[*]You win when the Mafia are eliminated and the opposing town loses.

Please take special note of your faction's lose condition.

[*]If you are the sole remaining player of your faction, you will be endgamed and automatically lose and exit the game.[/list]

Confirm by pm'ing me your full alignment (*READ THE FLAVOR TEXT*), flavor name, and effective role.

Notice it said nothing about having to be Light. Also, this was referred to as a Neighbourhood. Had Vedith's claim of the Neighbourhood only being restricted to Light Town (barring scum from joining) it would be a type of Masonry.

Also, Vedith's and Ankamius' claims are so similar that I would have expected one to be Light and the other Dark. It is likely Vedith is lying and is Dark or scum, since we can't check the Neighbourhood.

Vedith, if you are lying and are Dark Town, here is a free out. The same goes for Ankamius and Snarky. We need our Town to be truthful.

[BTD6_maker]

BTD you are making 0 sense and you are wrong

Any reasons, or just a blatant Appeal to Ridicule?

Vedith, if you are lying and are Dark Town, here is a free out. The same goes for Ankamius and Snarky. We need our Town to be truthful.

You are a fucking idiot.

Any reasons, or just a blatant Appeal to Ridicule?

Just so you know, if you are scumreading me and voting JasonWazza, it is physically impossible that the scumteam could be me and Jason. It would imply that Murdercat is truthful but also that the three claimed Lights are all genuine Light Town, which is impossible.

[BTD6_maker]

Seriously, BTD is second scum with murder, this is easy people.

I know I am not scum. What I will say, for those who don't know that I am Town, is that if I am scum (which I know to be false) then Murdercat is confscum. However, if I am Town, Murdercat could still be scum. Hence, if you are voting me, it's strictly better to be voting Murdercat.

[BTD6_maker]

Why is everyone just assuming Murder is Town because Plot thinks so? Sheeping another player in general is a bad idea. If you thought ?Murdercat is scum, vote him.

What I hate is the reasoning that Jason is scum for doubt casting Murdercat. It completely ignores the possibility of Murdercat actually lying.

Fate, your vote was on me before this. Again, if you think I am scum, Murdercat is confscum. I know I am pushing hard but I also realise that it is physically impossible at this stage for me to be scum pushing a mislynch.

[BTD6_maker]

Fate you need to vote Jason. Fire, you also need to vote Jason. Plot is fucking conf town who I tunneled all day yesterday and he says I'm town. Both scum are on me. If you are town and voting me you are being bad.

I agree with this.
Unless Plot says otherwise, I'll trust his read over Jason's strange theory.

Jason's strange theory?

At the start of the game, before any claims, what did you think more likely? 7-4-2 or 5-5-2-1? (The most popular theory was 5-5-3 which is similar enough to 5-5-2-1). Jason's theory doesn't look so strange any more. Murdercat could easily just have plucked some numbers out of thin air or lied as scum.

Also, Plot can easily be wrong. Plot is not a scum hunting god.

[BTD6_maker]

VOTE: Ankamius

I think it's either Vedith or Ankamius. Vedith is scummier by play but Vedith has the Neighbourhood thing (Vedith may be lying, but Ira wasn't, and the plan would have no chance of working without Ira's death). They're both likely scum in different ways.

[BTD6_maker]

I can also report that Vedith did not get a result tonight. An Odd-night Arsonist is highly likely so I thought Vedith was the best roleblock tonight.

[BTD6_maker]

Ank and vedith have the same role right? And they are both light?

That's why I doubt it. Personally, I think one is lying and is actually scum.

[BTD6_maker]

I think Plotinus is essentially right, but wrong in who is claiming what.

Here is a list for reference:
BTD6_maker: Dark Odd RC Even RB
Murdercat: Dark Informed Townie
Fire: Dark Backup Poison Doctor
Vedith: Light

Even

Alignment Cop
Ankamius: Light

Odd

Alignment Cop
Snarky: Light Bulletproof + ? (I am in support of getting a full claim).

Plotinus claimed to know Ankamius is scum, but confused Ank and Vedith. Vedith looks most likely scum according to him.

VOTE: Vedith

[BTD6_maker]

No BTD -- I'm 95% sure that Vedith is town.

~M

By Plotinus' logic, there is an Odd-night Arsonist Even-night X. Vedith is an Even-night Flavour Cop so Plot considers him most most likely. (He actually said Ank but meant Vedith as he said the Even-night Flavour Cop was scum).

[BTD6_maker]

OK. I thought you meant something like "Vedith is Town by play and his claim is Townier" when that was Ankamius' claim.

So what you think is that ignoring claims, Ankamius' play is scummier?

VOTE: Ankamius

[BTD6_maker]

Ankamius seems scummy according to Plot, but the problem is that we know an Odd-night Arsonist exists and Ank claimed Odd-night Flavour Cop. In that case, he opted not to choose his conventional fakeclaim (probably Even-night X) and opted to turn his Odd-night role into a fakeclaim.

Plot, do you think this is more likely than Vedith?

[BTD6_maker]

Ankamius, who did you (or Spring) target on Night 1?

[BTD6_maker]

I don't see how MoI's role goes monstrously wrong. As I understand it, MoI is loyal, meaning that the role only works on the same alignment, not including scum.

Ircher, if MoI targeted a scum disguised as Light, would that scum get two actions?

[BTD6_maker]

Vedith is confscum. He probably ignited thinking it would kill two of us, but Fate protected one of us.

VOTE: Vedith

Darks win.
By the way, Murdercat, I role copped you.

[BTD6_maker]

Thanks for the game, mods.

I actually thought scum was reasonably balanced here. This was especially as Day 4 was effectively LyLo despite one of my primes being lynched earlier.
What I will say is that Vedith getting his alignment wrong probably made Town auto-lose. We were confused by why Murdercat's numbers didn't make any sense. I was seriously considering claiming Light to lynch Murdercat, but refrained because we decided that given my Dark softing, it would make me seem scummy. (Plus we had no idea whether Murdercat was right or not, due to Vedith claiming Light).

[BTD6_maker]

Game Over!

It is a sad day for the planet, but perhaps, Zanos will be given a chance to redeem itself in the future.

If there is a sequel, I have some ideas on how to improve the game. Once I get mod rights in the Mini Theme queue, I could run the sequel with you as joint mods. (It won't be the exact same setup).

[BTD6_maker]

Part I: Rating Questions

* (1 is lowest, don't explain here) (I'm explaining anyway)
Question #1:

On a scale of 1 to 10, how would you rate the flavor of the game? Consider all parts of the game including role pms, pre-game, day/night scenes, and endgame. Also consider it's relation to the given theme.

9

I enjoyed the theme flavour, although I am still wondering what the flavour for Day beginning would have been
Question #2:

On a scale of 1 to 10, how would you rate the Light/Darkness split-town mechanic? (Keep in mind that it is the central focus of the setup, and the setup was designed around that mechanic).

6

An interesting idea, although I don't think it was executed as well as it could have been.
Question #3:

On a scale of 1 to 15, how would you rate the balance between town (as a whole) and mafia? While the split-town does play a role in the overall balance, we are looking at the balance between them and their common enemy, the mafia.

7

Mafia had a hard time in this game (ignoring Vedith) due to Murdercat.
Question #4:

On a scale of 1 to 15, how would you rate the balance between the two towns. While the mafia are a common threat to both, you are to ignore their impact when answering this question.

10

Light Town roles were too focused on finding and communicating with each other and were rather outnumbered. Again, I have a few ways to try balancing this a bit more.
Question #5:

On a scale of 1 to 25, how would you rate the overall balance of the entire setup. It is possible that while subsections of the setup may be balanced, the overall balance may be tilted to one side or another. The key question here is do you think each faction had a close to equal chance of winning?

18

Dark Town had a disproportionately high chance of winning, but otherwise it wasn't too bad.
Question #6:

On a scale of 1 to 25, how would you rate the overall quality of the game considering all aspects? This includes everything from flavor, balance, core mechanic, execution quality, and how much you enjoyed watching the game.

21

This was a very enjoyable game to play, especially from a few days into it.

Final Score: 71 / 100 (Moderator use only!)

Part II: Short Answer Questions

* (No more than a single sentence; generally brief 1-word responses are expected.)
Question #7:

How would you summarize your opinion of this game in 1 word?

Suspenseful

I agree with you here.
Question #8:

Do you feel the setup was worth running? Do not explain why.

Definitely

I even think I could run a sequel with you possibly.
Question #9:

How would you describe the overall balance of this game in 1 word?

Swingy

Mafia could end up ruining a faction with Night Kills, even inadvertently. In addition, Dark was quite strong.

I will answer the verbal questions when I have more time.