Let's Beef Up Bodyguard!

[House]

Bodyguard as it exists today is a role that most dread getting. It's all lose and no win for the player.

I propose the following modification:

- Choosing a target to protect keeps the bodyguard away from home, thus they can't be targeted directly

when protecting someone

(no action = regular results)

- Other PR's (aside from killing roles) that target the bodyguard's target get the generic roleblocked message, making the bodyguard's protection of their target complete (and a double-edged sword!)

- Kills of course kill the bodyguard instead of the target.

This gives a bodyguard some much needed 'muscle', and makes it a viable PR for more than just a slot filler role.

[House]

Mafia bodyguard can actually become a thing with these mods.

[House]

bodyguard will have incentive to target scum or players who won't be killed by mafia, like VIs, in order to turn themselves into bulletproof townies. that's not in the spirit of how the BG operates, in my opinion

As it is, many don't bother using their role at all because it's actually anti-town to use outside of an outed (REAL) claim.

[House]

Dying while protecting someone means you did it right and should be proud.

Duh. But why should you be able to be killed at home when you're not even there?

[House]

roles don't exist in a vacuum. they fit into a setup and a role's power is going to be at least partially dictated by the power distribution elsewhere. the idea of a bodyguard is to have some form of protective for the other stronger PRs while leaving the number of deaths per night unchanged, so it doesn't necessarily buy an extra lynch for town. if you have juiced up town investigatives (or something else), it's good to put in a weaker protectives like bodyguard rather than the higher-powered ones like doc or jk.

My buffs wouldn't change the number of NKs.


Did you even read the post, or shit out an objection based on the author?

[House]

i have nothing against you. also it was my understanding the quasi-hider ability would stop kills directly targeting the bodyguard.

my objection is to the implication that there's something inherently wrong with the bodyguard role. i don't think there is.

What is the point in a bodyguard using their role to protect

possible

town at the expense of

confirmed

town AND be killed from two different targets??

I don't bother, personally. It's just a named townie to me.

[House]

What is the point in a bodyguard using their role to protect possible town at the expense of confirmed town AND be killed from two different targets??

confirmed town (innocent children, friendly neighbors, masons) are good targets to take a bullet for

buying an investigative another night in exhange for your death is also a plus for town (assuming the result is more of a net positive than the quality of your reads, if that's not the case scum would probably just kill you directly anyway)

They'd also be good targets to protect from being rolecopped.

Blocking non-killing actions makes sense for a bodyguard, because it's their job to protect their target from all threats.

[House]

Fair enough.

[House]

Dead town > live town?

And people accuse Titus of moonlogic, lol.

[House]

Tell me cfj, where is the gain for a bodyguard to protect a suspected PR that winds up flipping vanilla?

Or worse yet, scum crossfire?

Bodyguard is a trash PR because the player is sacrificing CONFIRMED town for MAYBE town PR.

[House]

Also, why should a bodyguard use their ability when they're outing scum to protect a PR that has done nothing to advance the game?

That's nonsensical.

A PR whose only utility is the sacrifice of confirmed town is just a waste of a PR.

[House]

I would also like to add that scum kill specific towniest for a reason; having a strong and possibly accurate voice in the town for an extra day is another upside to the doctor; however, that upside also applies to a bodyguard.

Not when that bodyguard IS the strongest and most accurate voice.

Why should they throw themselves in front of the bullet to save a weaker player?

[House]

i think infinity's point is that (assuming scum are making optimal kills) scum aiming at someone else means they're doing better in terms of reads and day play than the bodyguard is

pedit: lolninjad

Or they're just an outed PR.

If that outed PR has been a worthless lump, it's stupid to die for them when the Bodyguard is getting more results.

[House]

Note that if the bodyguard protects someone, they don't end up flipping at all!

Doesn't change the fact the bodyguard wasted their life on vanilla/scum.

[House]

Why are you assuming that the bodyguard is confirmed?

Every player is always confirmed to themselves (outside of bastard games, perhaps).

You're looking at this from a design standpoint. I'm talking about a player standpoint.

Why should a player, that knows they're town, be willing to die for another player that MIGHT be town?

Doesn't sound optimal to me without some additional utility to the role to make it worthwhile.

[House]

I mean, you can throw the damned role in as many games as you want, but it's a waste of a slot if it's not going be utilized.

[House]

If, as town, you have an opportunity to die and flip in a game without bringing scum closer to their win condition, you should normally take it; it gives town more information (the fact that you were town), which both helps them trust your reads and reduces the chance that you get mislynched, and the only downside is that you can't give public opinions on what happens in the rest of the game.

That's all null and void when the Bodyguard is already widely townread and sheeped.

[House]

You're saying that the Bodyguard should be selfish, and increase the chances that they personally can solve the game via denying the rest of town information they could use to solve the game?

Not selfish insomuch as protecting confirmed town over maybe possibly town.

That bodyguard KNOWS they'll flip green. He/she can't say the same about their target.

[House]

You're saying that the Bodyguard should be selfish, and increase the chances that they personally can solve the game via denying the rest of town information they could use to solve the game?

Not selfish insomuch as protecting confirmed town over maybe possibly town.

That bodyguard KNOWS they'll flip green. He/she can't say the same about their target.

If bodyguard successfully protects and its not multiball, then their target is pretty much guaranteed to be town.

Not like the bodyguard can say, "HEY I PROTECTED SO AND SO!"

And if they telegraph their target, do you really think scum will shoot there?

[House]

You're saying that the Bodyguard should be selfish, and increase the chances that they personally can solve the game via denying the rest of town information they could use to solve the game?

Not selfish insomuch as protecting confirmed town over maybe possibly town.

That bodyguard KNOWS they'll flip green. He/she can't say the same about their target.

If bodyguard successfully protects and its not multiball, then their target is pretty much guaranteed to be town.

Not like the bodyguard can say, "HEY I PROTECTED SO AND SO!"

And if they telegraph their target, do you really think scum will shoot there?

So what? They did their job, and kept a probably valuable townie alive.

Which completely discounts any actual game solving contribution the bodyguard themself has to offer based on, "they kept some other townie alive".

Yeah sure. Right on.

[House]

It's a heavily restricted and modified (inverted) Nexus, which sucks.

[House]

I mean, if I'm gonna eat a bullet in place of another townie, at least make me a lightning rod to make it interesting.

[House]

(Also, you misspelled my name in your sig.)

To which I counter: you misspelled judgment in your name!

[House]

I'm British. This is the correct spelling over here

Irrelevant. You also spell color, flavor, and neighbor with a "u", taking after the pretentious French, as the British originally spelled it properly.

[House]

Or they're just an outed PR.

If that outed PR has been a worthless lump, it's stupid to die for them when the Bodyguard is getting more results.

in that case the bodyguard can weigh whether or not the PR having another shot at an action is worth taking a bullet for them and choose to not protect them if they deem it's not.

Making the role worthless.

[House]

I think house is saying that town players should be egoistical and trust themselves most

No, I'm saying there's little incentive to use the role.

[House]

All your self-justification isn't going to change the fact that there's just extremely little incentive for a player to use the role.

[House]

Bear in mind that the scum could choose to simply shoot the bodyguard! If they don't, then there's presumably a reason for that.

Which is reason to reevaluate reads, not commit suicide.

[House]

All of this is moot at any rate, I've already been advised to suggest a new role, and have done so.

That just doesn't make me think Bodyguard magically has value.

[House]

The thing that bemuses me so much here is that I can see someone arguing that Doctor is better than Bodyguard (and it is in some setups), but I just can't see how anyone would consider the Bodyguard night action to be a negative utility one that shouldn't/wouldn't be used. Unless there's a vig or a second scum faction, using it is basically always going to be at worst harmless, and normally beneficial if it hits.

And unless it's an open setup, you don't know there ISN'T a vig.

I see no reason i should sacrifice myself instead of simply take the dead town's reads into account and readjust my own.

After all, sometimes town isn't killed for their reads, but to frame another townie to set up the next day's mislynch!

[House]

(And even if there is a vig, something has gone very wrong if you Bodyguard the vig target.)

if your reads are so balls that you jump in front of a vig kill on scum, your very presence in the game is neg utility and getting rid of you is still a victory for town

And if you protect a townread from a vig shot?

It's stupid and worthless.

[House]

You want to beef up bodyguard? Maybe just give the game 2 bodyguards? Have roles with day-kill abilities? Allow the BG to target a player Day or Night and let them stop vig. shots / other DKs.

None of that makes a bodyguard actually want to use their role if they wouldn't under current mechanics.

My tweaks give players incentive to actively put their necks on the line.

[House]

Trading bodyguard for VT isn't really worth it anyways.

Precisely, but a Shield has a reason to use their role regardless of the role being protected.

[House]

Oh yeah, I'm back in this thread.

Idc about how worthless bodyguard is anymore.

I already took someone's advice on the matter and moved on long ago.


Unsubscribing.