Let's Beef Up Bodyguard!

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Post Post #0  (ISO)  » Fri Sep 30, 2016 12:08 am

Bodyguard as it exists today is a role that most dread getting. It's all lose and no win for the player.

I propose the following modification:

- Choosing a target to protect keeps the bodyguard away from home, thus they can't be targeted directly when protecting someone (no action = regular results)

- Other PR's (aside from killing roles) that target the bodyguard's target get the generic roleblocked message, making the bodyguard's protection of their target complete (and a double-edged sword!)

- Kills of course kill the bodyguard instead of the target.

This gives a bodyguard some much needed 'muscle', and makes it a viable PR for more than just a slot filler role.
Last edited by House on Fri Sep 30, 2016 12:18 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post Post #1  (ISO)  » Fri Sep 30, 2016 12:11 am

Mafia bodyguard can actually become a thing with these mods.
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Post Post #2  (ISO)  » Fri Sep 30, 2016 4:45 am

bodyguard will have incentive to target scum or players who won't be killed by mafia, like VIs, in order to turn themselves into bulletproof townies. that's not in the spirit of how the BG operates, in my opinion
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Post Post #3  (ISO)  » Fri Sep 30, 2016 6:10 am

Just make it a Hiding Bodyguard Rolestopper
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Post Post #4  (ISO)  » Fri Sep 30, 2016 9:05 am

roles don't exist in a vacuum. they fit into a setup and a role's power is going to be at least partially dictated by the power distribution elsewhere. the idea of a bodyguard is to have some form of protective for the other stronger PRs while leaving the number of deaths per night unchanged, so it doesn't necessarily buy an extra lynch for town. if you have juiced up town investigatives (or something else), it's good to put in a weaker protectives like bodyguard rather than the higher-powered ones like doc or jk.
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Post Post #5  (ISO)  » Fri Sep 30, 2016 9:09 am

You want to make bg strong give it mutual kill. If scum tries to jill your target you both die.
Thats pretty big buff.

But also what anti hero said.
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Post Post #6  (ISO)  » Fri Sep 30, 2016 9:10 am

That's elite Bodyguard.
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Post Post #7  (ISO)  » Fri Sep 30, 2016 9:11 am

We just call it bg at home
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Post Post #8  (ISO)  » Fri Sep 30, 2016 12:15 pm

Dying while protecting someone means you did it right and should be proud.
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Post Post #9  (ISO)  » Fri Sep 30, 2016 1:06 pm

In post 2, Accountant wrote:bodyguard will have incentive to target scum or players who won't be killed by mafia, like VIs, in order to turn themselves into bulletproof townies. that's not in the spirit of how the BG operates, in my opinion


As it is, many don't bother using their role at all because it's actually anti-town to use outside of an outed (REAL) claim.
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Post Post #10  (ISO)  » Fri Sep 30, 2016 1:09 pm

In post 8, BrainpanSonata wrote:Dying while protecting someone means you did it right and should be proud.


Duh. But why should you be able to be killed at home when you're not even there?
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Post Post #11  (ISO)  » Fri Sep 30, 2016 1:10 pm

In post 4, Antihero wrote:roles don't exist in a vacuum. they fit into a setup and a role's power is going to be at least partially dictated by the power distribution elsewhere. the idea of a bodyguard is to have some form of protective for the other stronger PRs while leaving the number of deaths per night unchanged, so it doesn't necessarily buy an extra lynch for town. if you have juiced up town investigatives (or something else), it's good to put in a weaker protectives like bodyguard rather than the higher-powered ones like doc or jk.


My buffs wouldn't change the number of NKs.


Did you even read the post, or shit out an objection based on the author?
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Post Post #12  (ISO)  » Fri Sep 30, 2016 1:15 pm

i have nothing against you. also it was my understanding the quasi-hider ability would stop kills directly targeting the bodyguard.

my objection is to the implication that there's something inherently wrong with the bodyguard role. i don't think there is.
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Post Post #13  (ISO)  » Fri Sep 30, 2016 1:28 pm

In post 12, Antihero wrote:i have nothing against you. also it was my understanding the quasi-hider ability would stop kills directly targeting the bodyguard.

my objection is to the implication that there's something inherently wrong with the bodyguard role. i don't think there is.


What is the point in a bodyguard using their role to protect possible town at the expense of confirmed town AND be killed from two different targets??

I don't bother, personally. It's just a named townie to me.
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Post Post #14  (ISO)  » Fri Sep 30, 2016 1:41 pm

In post 13, House wrote:What is the point in a bodyguard using their role to protect possible town at the expense of confirmed town AND be killed from two different targets??


confirmed town (innocent children, friendly neighbors, masons) are good targets to take a bullet for

buying an investigative another night in exhange for your death is also a plus for town (assuming the result is more of a net positive than the quality of your reads, if that's not the case scum would probably just kill you directly anyway)
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Post Post #15  (ISO)  » Fri Sep 30, 2016 1:43 pm

In post 14, Antihero wrote:
In post 13, House wrote:What is the point in a bodyguard using their role to protect possible town at the expense of confirmed town AND be killed from two different targets??


confirmed town (innocent children, friendly neighbors, masons) are good targets to take a bullet for

buying an investigative another night in exhange for your death is also a plus for town (assuming the result is more of a net positive than the quality of your reads, if that's not the case scum would probably just kill you directly anyway)


They'd also be good targets to protect from being rolecopped.

Blocking non-killing actions makes sense for a bodyguard, because it's their job to protect their target from all threats.
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Post Post #16  (ISO)  » Fri Sep 30, 2016 2:41 pm

Bodyguard has already been established to work one way. You should leave it alone or you will confuse players. If you want a bodyguard that also rolestops them, just make that new role.
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Post Post #17  (ISO)  » Fri Sep 30, 2016 2:42 pm

Fair enough.
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Post Post #18  (ISO)  » Mon Oct 03, 2016 10:09 am

In post 0, House wrote:Bodyguard as it exists today is a role that most dread getting. It's all lose and no win for the player.

Incorrect. In most setups, Bodyguard is more powerful than Doctor.

Protecting a player with a Doctor ability allows you to mildly confirm them, and they were probably pretty likely town anyway (otherwise the scum probably wouldn't kill them, and even if they did, you probably wouldn't predict the kill). Unless the protected player has a power role, or you manage to protect twice (gaining a mislynch), this has effectively zero use for town.

Successfully using a Bodyguard ability allows you to fully confirm yourself, because you flip, and is almost as effective as saving a town power role as a Doctor is (with the only real drawback being that they can't do it twice). Also, because the number of kills doesn't change, your flip doesn't change the number of mislynches town has. This is much more of a gain than the equivalent Doctor save would be (except in setups where blocking two kills is likely).

When balancing setups, I balance Bodyguard like a fraction of an Innocent Child (depending on how likely it is to hit). Meanwhile, the value of Doctor in of itself is based only on the chance that two kills are stopped and town gains a mislynch. (In both cases, other power roles can become more valuable due to the inclusion of protective roles in the setup; something like an unlimited Cop is much stronger if the setup also has a Doctor, but that's one of the main cases in which a Doctor is better than a Bodyguard.)
scum · scam · seam · team · term · tern · torn · town

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Post Post #19  (ISO)  » Mon Oct 03, 2016 10:15 am

Dead town > live town?

And people accuse Titus of moonlogic, lol.
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Post Post #20  (ISO)  » Mon Oct 03, 2016 10:19 am

Gonna have to disagree with you cfj

Power is about more than the amount of mislynches you have
There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.

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Post Post #21  (ISO)  » Mon Oct 03, 2016 10:29 am

Tell me cfj, where is the gain for a bodyguard to protect a suspected PR that winds up flipping vanilla?

Or worse yet, scum crossfire?

Bodyguard is a trash PR because the player is sacrificing CONFIRMED town for MAYBE town PR.
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callforjudgement: In most setups, Bodyguard is more powerful than Doctor.

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Post Post #22  (ISO)  » Mon Oct 03, 2016 11:23 am

In post 18, callforjudgement wrote:
In post 0, House wrote:Bodyguard as it exists today is a role that most dread getting. It's all lose and no win for the player.

Incorrect. In most setups, Bodyguard is more powerful than Doctor.

Protecting a player with a Doctor ability allows you to mildly confirm them, and they were probably pretty likely town anyway (otherwise the scum probably wouldn't kill them, and even if they did, you probably wouldn't predict the kill). Unless the protected player has a power role, or you manage to protect twice (gaining a mislynch), this has effectively zero use for town.

Successfully using a Bodyguard ability allows you to fully confirm yourself, because you flip, and is almost as effective as saving a town power role as a Doctor is (with the only real drawback being that they can't do it twice). Also, because the number of kills doesn't change, your flip doesn't change the number of mislynches town has. This is much more of a gain than the equivalent Doctor save would be (except in setups where blocking two kills is likely).

When balancing setups, I balance Bodyguard like a fraction of an Innocent Child (depending on how likely it is to hit). Meanwhile, the value of Doctor in of itself is based only on the chance that two kills are stopped and town gains a mislynch. (In both cases, other power roles can become more valuable due to the inclusion of protective roles in the setup; something like an unlimited Cop is much stronger if the setup also has a Doctor, but that's one of the main cases in which a Doctor is better than a Bodyguard.)


What if the game starts in evens?
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Post Post #23  (ISO)  » Mon Oct 03, 2016 11:28 am

Also, why should a bodyguard use their ability when they're outing scum to protect a PR that has done nothing to advance the game?

That's nonsensical.

A PR whose only utility is the sacrifice of confirmed town is just a waste of a PR.
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Post Post #24  (ISO)  » Mon Oct 03, 2016 11:32 am

I think doctor is better when it can save twice, in the case of a claimed PR and when the game starts in evens. Otherwise I agree with cfj that a random townie dying is good for the town.
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