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[quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8484487#p8484487]post 2579[/url], Shadow_step"][quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8483862#p8483862]post 2571[/url], boring"]@nn30
My case on Penguin as presented today
[spoiler=][quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8469005#p8469005]post 2287[/url], boring"]Honestly, Penguin, your push on nn30 is part of what's making me drag my feet on him. Sure, you hammered LUV, but that was after the gambit, when it was clear he was getting lynched anyway. In fact, I'm more than a little surprised that Zoronos wasn't more suspicious of you, based on the votes, than Grendel.
First, you went after Gamma. Then, when he was revealed as cop, you went after Zoronos. LUV continued to get pressure, but you didn't vote him. I think it's very conceivable that the scum team told him to gambit to flush out any protectors. Then, when he got to L-1 again, and the gambit got its results, you hammered with little warning, to cut off further discussion.
[vote]Penguin[/vote][/quote]
[quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8479008#p8479008]post 2452[/url], boring"][quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8476384#p8476384]post 2434[/url], PenguinPower"][quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8475825#p8475825]post 2429[/url], boring"]He's capable of following instructions, right? Do you think he thought up the doc gambit all by his lonesome?[/quote]
In my experience with him. No, and No. He would need message-crafting level coaching to buddy someone; not just guidance to buddy.[/quote]
You'll have to forgive me if I don't take your word for it. Regardless, I can't be the only person he buddied.
[quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8476384#p8476384]post 2434[/url], PenguinPower"]You're starting to get a little flippant in your posting, which I appreciate - if you were town. [/quote]
This comment worries me. I know this is an argument being used by someone(s) to townread you. Your attempt to apply it to me feels ham-handed. It's as if you're trying to reinforce this perception of you, rather than determine my alignment. [/quote]
[quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8479015#p8479015]post 2453[/url], boring"]"worries" is the wrong word. I'm past worried. "Irks"? "Helps supports my scum read"? Helps support my scum read.[/quote]
[quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8479307#p8479307]post 2457[/url], boring"][quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8479051#p8479051]post 2454[/url], PenguinPower"]
[quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8479008#p8479008]post 2452[/url], boring"]This comment worries me. I know this is an argument being used by someone(s) to townread you. Your attempt to apply it to me feels ham-handed. It's as if you're trying to reinforce this perception of you, rather than determine my alignment.[/quote]
I'm me, and you're you. I've been flippant since my first post in this thread. You haven't been, so the change is noteworthy to me. [/quote] Still clumsy. First, I've not been flippant at all. Second, who is deliberately flippant the point that they would choose describe themselves as such?[/spoiler]
My arguments against Penguin on previous days:
[spoiler=][quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8392062#p8392062]post 238[/url], boring"][quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8392023#p8392023]post 236[/url], PenguinPower"][quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8391909#p8391909]post 223[/url], boring"]However, I'm enjoying the irony of PP bucking your analysis when he's going after LUV for his. Not that I'm not fond of LUV right now, either.[/quote]
So. Many. Pronouns.
I don't know how to respond since it could mean to entirely different things.[/quote]
What I mean is this: You're scumreading LUV for the answers he gave to Grendel's questions. You're being scumread by Grendel for the answers you gave to the same questions. You're unhappy with Grendel's interpretation of your answers. While I sympathize with your frustration, I find the situation mildly humorous.
Further, I find both you and LUV worth some scrutiny, but that I'm dissatisfied with both your and Grendel's decisions to base scum reads off Grendel's "RQS".[/quote]
[quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8396352#p8396352]post 349[/url], boring"][quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8395671#p8395671]post 343[/url], Shadow_step"][quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8395074#p8395074]post 329[/url], boring"]Gamma is acting exactly like he did in our last game. I tunnelled him for it because he's easy to mislynch. I'm also doubting my scum read on Zoronos. He's just barrelled on without a single adjustment to his behavior. It's not something I'd expect from someone I'm scum-reading for being fake. They're each either cleverer at playing scum than I'm willing to entertain at the moment, or they're not scum.
[unvote][/unvote][/quote]
Join me on Penguin please.
He nicely ignored my question.[/quote]
I don't think your question was terribly interrogative, so that's not a super good reason. The vote on gamma makes no sense though.
@Gamma, I don't think you're too widely town read, so it's not like PP's going against the flow. It seems more like he's testing it.
[vote]PenguinPower[/vote][/quote]
[quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8398303#p8398303]post 476[/url], boring"]
[color=#FF4F00]PenguinPower[/color] - Bad votes, reactions lack a feeling of authenticity, posts lacking substance, and dismissive in a way that I only see with scum.[/quote][/quote][/spoiler]
Penguin has seemed scummy pretty much the whole game. I don't think he's ever breached null with me, and I do seriously question why people would think he's town. He's so incredibly opportunistic, and he only seems to pick very safe targets to go after.
With Shadow, it's more complicated. He's said a couple things here and there that have pinged me. For example, rereading the fake-claim situation over N2. These posts weren't far apart, but I find that there's a lot wrong with them. [quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8453915#p8453915]post 2085[/url], Shadow_step"]I want to lock LUV into a claim, I think he is also scum.[/quote] If his intent to hammer was designed to lock LUV into a claim, why would he immediately believe it?
[quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8454263#p8454263]post 2092[/url], Shadow_step"]Brilliant, all the lynch baits got all the good PRs :/[/quote] If our most easily mislynched players were in a position to be conf. town, that's an enormous stroke of good luck. This comment reads to me like one of frustration, which makes me question whether it's a scum slip.
His big picture too, has struck me as possibly anti-town. Meaning, he's not made an ounce of positive contribution, in the long run.
Then there's Grendel's argument, which made a lot of sense. I get the impression that not everyone took the time to read it. So here it is again:
[spoiler=][quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8473874#p8473874]post 2378[/url], Grendel"]The connection of the second Ascetic being a role blocker:
1) I hate to admit it, but Zoronos is right about scum being way to confidant to go after Gamma without a means to negate his power.
2) If there were two roles capable of negating night actions, the mod would have to decide which gets priority; giving the scum rb an aesthetic modifier solves this issue.
3) With Shadow being an ascetic it makes more sense for him to be a role blocker because his modifier with allow him to bypass Zoronos's blocking ablities.
4) All things considered from a set up perspective, town and mafia having one ascetic makes more sense than town getting [i]two ascetics[/i], while scum[i] also gets something to counter town protectives[/i]. Unless we have another 3+ town power, (lol), then this isn't an incredibility anti-town set up.
I won’t remove a strong man from the table, but given that Shadow is arguing that instead of a role blocker is giving me bad vibes. Especially now that I have had this realization regarding Shadow.
I guess I should address the elephant in the room first. The reason why everybody has a mutual town read on Shadow: his counter claim. Heck, even I thought it was a pretty town motivated thing to do, cc another unlikely role in the only makes sense. The thing is though that I have witnessed enough games to recognizing risky D1 scum gambits. They go hard and long D1, until everybody is convinced that there is no way the slot could be scum. Then once cleared by the other players they lurk until the late game. Compare this to shadow’s activity this game. 166 posts D1. 35 posts D2. 15 posts so far today. He becomes significantly less aggressive with his pushes going into the second day, and many of his opinions are not memorable. As in looking over his iso, I’m seeing things I never really noticed before.
Some things I noticed going through his isolated posts:
[spoiler=][quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8388083#p8388083]post 9[/url], Shadow_step"][vote]LUV[/vote]
This is a scum PR we need to get riD of ASAP.[/quote]
[quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8390161#p8390161]post 166[/url], Shadow_step"]Looks like LUV has been advised to play dumb and play newb like.
Needs death.[/quote]
-Shadow had started out D1 with a vote on LUV, and then proceeds to distance him until he comes to the conclusion that LUV null. Looks like scum pretending to sort scum.
[quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8397153#p8397153]post 400[/url], Shadow_step"][quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8397141#p8397141]post 398[/url], MariaR"]N30 has been obv town since the start of this.
The fact gamma isn't obv town when I've obv town read him before is worrying
the LUV townreads make me laugh.
I'm gonna look more into a few players that don't need names but with the amount of people I am slowly going like "you can be town" these players are....[/quote]
If penguin is scum, LUV is town.
I do agree on that town reading LUV is kinda dumb.[/quote]
- Its common for scum to link their buddies to other players in mutally exclusive relationships. Though I find the order a bit weird.
-With the usage of the scum pt it is not unreasonable that Shadow could have plotted out his counter claim in advance. I believe he is of the ability to organize this as scum. Town reading him for it would be folly.
[quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8403760#p8403760]post 753[/url], Shadow_step"]I'm not lynching anyone but eager today.
If there are two ascetics. This game is bastard.
So I'd rather believe eager is scum than this game is bastard.[/quote]
- Shadow step calling the game bastard seems like a redirect to get town to blame to mod’s set up choices instead of Shadow once Eager flips scum. It also gives him an excuse to spend the whole day tunneling Eager, and be justified by the outcome regardless what Eager flips. He do say this as town, but it'd be an awfully convenit stance to take as scum sense he can look like aggressive town while not actually being aggressive towards other players. So he gets no back lash for statements like this.
[quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8410849#p8410849]post 1344[/url], Shadow_step"]Hmm I got my facts wrong. Eggman and eager were both useless I thought eager got lynched for the cult win.[/quote]
- Scum slip. A low expections of Eager. As scum Shadow would view him as an easy mislynch. Suggests that Shadow would have been more confidence pushing a cc on Eager then somebody else.
[quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8425446#p8425446]post 1579[/url], Shadow_step"]
If he thinks I'm scum, I would obviously not consider Eager to be town. Why the hell would I? He then says that Eager could be lying town. Implying he knows eager I town. Lying as town is very risky. Not just in that game. But you can get blacklisted.
LUV treats me as if I am town here.
To be noted[/quote]
- Shadeow’s read of LUV bounces throughout D1, but ultimately it appears that LUV is a null read for him given how Shadow keeps a suspicion on him without acting on it. It isn’t until this point that he seems legitimately interested in lynching LUV… until he moves over to Gamma.
[quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8454263#p8454263]post 2092[/url], Shadow_step"]Brilliant, all the lynch baits got all the good PRs :/
[v]Nn[/v][/quote]
- 2092 Immediately buys that LUV is doctor. I think this could be a last second reprieve to see if LUV can live another day or two.
[quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8454298#p8454298]post 2099[/url], Shadow_step"]Someone needs to unvote before luv self hammers.[/quote]
[quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8454318#p8454318]post 2102[/url], Shadow_step"]He will hammer cause he is scum.
Probably going bonkers in his at.[/quote]
- 2099 & 2102 This reads like damage control. Trying to back away from LUV as fast as he can.
- Shadow spends a lot of time on set up speculation D2…
[quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8466835#p8466835]post 2209[/url], Shadow_step"][quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8460881#p8460881]post 2201[/url], podoboq"][area][b]Lil Uzi Vert[/b], [color=#FF0000]Mafia Goon[/color], was lynched Day 2.
It is now Night 2. Please PM all night actions to me by the deadline, or bold them in your associated private thread.
[b]Deadline[/b]: [countdown]2016-10-29 08:44:00 -4.00[/countdown][/area][/quote]
Only if bastars mod hadn't put 2 town ascetics, had this scum fuck day 1.[/quote]
- Takes credit for the lynch of somebody he only kept as a scum lean and only pushed whenever Shadow thought LUV said something particularly bad. Usually something directed at Shadow too. Also Shadow is once again painting the mod as the scape goat. Maybe it's just me, but shadow has been evading the responsibility for his actions this game, starting with his fake 1-L vote on Pengiun back in Day 1.
Seeing how the most town thing I had to say about Shadow going into today was his behavior D1 tells me that he has been keeping a low profile since Eager flipped. Also nobody pointing out some of these things means that everybody has written off Shadow as town. Which imo is a big mistake that I too was a part of yesterday. The entire purpose of a powerful D1 scum gambit is to rack up enough town cred to slide into the endgame. This is exactly what Shadow is doing.
You know, I had originally thought that Shadow step was an investigative role given his jump on Gamma at the start of D2 along the lines of “Oh yeah, this is scum btw”. I thought that he was softing a guilty, the same way he did at the start of D1 where he remarked how easy the game will be after Eager’s claim. There was also how much attention Shadow gives Maria D1, and her general feelings were that Gamma wasn’t Ob!town like she was expecting him to be. More reasoning I had down in my notes is that two regular townies modified with straight aesthetics modifiers and nothing else, would be really anti town. So I thought that Shadow should be a cop or some such.[/quote][/spoiler]
My primary reservations on the Shadow case are, first, if he's scum, he's played one hell of a risky game. Second, I'm prone to serious paranoia sometimes, so I have to question whether I've read too much into these details.
Yes, Shadow, I think it possible for the scum team to be LUV-Penguin-Shadow.[/quote]
Grendel's case holds zero water, he's assuming crazy things like LUV. Who was arguing that I was some gambiting scum who CCed eager to take the pressure of PP and boring. That argument in itself was dumb because I was the one who was pushing the PP wagon quite a bit.
Its the same here, using crazy theories to justify his push on me when simple Occam's razor can dictate that isn't the case.
He also refuses to address why I'm playing sub optimally if I am ascetic RB.
How does believing a claim make me scum? what is your argument here? I don't get it at all.[/quote]
Uhh wrong quote I guess ^^
@[b]Mod can you fix #2579, please?[/b]
You're right.