California Trilogy - Dantès in Fresno (Game Over!)

[Zindaras]

Oman, iocaine powder doesn't have a smell.

Mod

, I assume that the wording for Rule 5 means that no "Bah" posts are allowed?

Please see the Post Content section of the rules regarding asking questions of the Mod.

The wording of rule 5 means that no "Bah" posts are allowed, correct. This is now explicitly stated. - Mod

[Zindaras]

Man, this game is going to be awesome.

Vote: Skruffs

because he's obvobv scum.

[Zindaras]

Clearly, only a foul scumbag, cursed by the powers that be (read: mith) into being a god-forsaken, evil semblance of a man, would, at this point in the game, use Condorcet voting.

Confirm Vote: Skruffs

[Zindaras]

I don't like Skruffs' use of the system so early.

So what makes it okay for you to use it then?

Cease your pitiful attempts to protect the villainous cur, Skruffs, from our brutal and righteous lynching mob! Join us, instead, in our crusade against the evil Skruffs!

[Zindaras]

I find it

very

interesting that Zindie felt a need for clarification on this point. That question makes me very uneasy. Quite like Zindy is looking for a way to seem more townlike. It's completely a hunch, but it's definately good enough for a D1 initial vote.

I just wanted to know if Bah posts are allowed. I believe I've asked the selfsame questions in more than one previous game. This is nothing but a null tell.

I plan on using the Condorcet voting method here, does THAT make me scum, too?

For someone who apparently enjoys bluster, you are quick to attack me over that post.

LML - why don't you have no lynch in yours? Taking your point forward, isn't it odd that you would rather see ANYONE get lynched then go to a no lynch? That strikes me as blood thirsty.

Lynch>No Lynch. Do we really have to go over all those arguments again? I thought that was only necessary in newbies.

Zindaras, is there anyone else in this game you have noticed, or are you explicitly focused on getting see me to die?

Perish, ignoble villain!

I'd be surprised. He literally wrote the book on the subject.

Scumtells are usually unconscious things.

I must say I'm thoroughly amused by the Skruffswagon. However, though Skruffs is despicable scum whose continued existence is an affront to nature (<3), there are people who are more deservant of my vote.

I just haven't found them yet. So I'll just go with my gut for now and do the following:

Vote: LoudmouthLee

, Dragon Phoenix

Unvote

[Zindaras]

EBWOP: That was silly. *giggles*

Unvote, Vote: LoudmouthLee

, Dragon Phoenix.

[Zindaras]

VitR -> Opportunistic. IT is not standard town behavior to not care who gets lynched as long as someone does. In this particular situation, that would also include yourself.
If you do *not* like the idea of a no lynch, then you need to place a list with everyone in front of no lynch, signifying that, because as it stands, if me, Zindaras, or MGM is not lynched, you don't care if someone else gets lynched OR we no lynch.

You want everyone to make Condorcet votes of everyone? Because that's what this implies.

I gave some players I have not played with before, like jeep, benefit of the doubt, because I didn't want to list EVERYONE in the list.

And why did you give them the benefit of the doubt? Why some specific players and not others?

Zindaras - if you are going to unvote me, please retract your statement that I am a villainous cur that needs to be lynched, or else, it will seem you are trying to get other people to do your dirty work for you. KThx.

Have you not grasped what I've been doing? I daresay it would be quite obvious, when someone says things like "villainous cur", "ignoble villain" and "god-forsaken semblance of a man" and confirm votes someone 20 minutes into the game, it is quite obvious that that person is joking around.

[Zindaras]

Zindaras: don't know what to make of him. Inconsequential posting, attacked Scrubbs vehemently onyl to drop him the moment the wagon gets underway, to switch to LML on gut. Hm. IGMEOY.

I have a history with Skruffs. And while I find his posting somewhat odd and scummy, I don't want to have him at 7 votes. My experiences with quicklynches lately made me not want to keep my vote on him. While I'll agree that it is less likely in a game with this kind of player list, I'm going to have to put the blame with Pavlov on this one.

Regarding Mossy's random voting: I really don't see the point. It was either random, as he says, or still fairly arbitrary, since his first vote (the only one that really matters, after all, especially at this point in the game) was logicticus.

Now, if he had voted Skruffs, I'd have agreed. That's a vote that I would see scum try to subtly push under the pretext of a random vote. But, to be honest, I can't possibly see why MoScum would bother trying to hide a vote on logicticus as a random vote.

[Zindaras]

How/where did those people push your buttons?

[Zindaras]

The only reason I can see for NOT using a list in your vote is if you are scum and haven't yet figured out how you plan to make your list so that it reduces your risk while not tipping your hand.

Don't back peddle. That is clearly stating:

not using a list = scum

There is nothing here about discouraging others to use a list.

In fact, I am upgrading you now to suspect #1:

Unvote Skruffs
Vote jeep

I think this is a good catch. While I believed the disagreement regarding vote lists was more of a game thing, a null tell, this is a contradiction.

I'm guilty of hyperbole. There is no reason to not use a list if you are pro-town. I stand by that.

DP, you take my quote out of context... it was responding to :

I don't particularly like using Concordet voting this early in the game when everything is still too hazy

My response was that there is no reason not to. I may have stated it a little more strongly than needed. If you notice, I only had a list of one in my first vote.

I don't feel it's back peddling. I stand by my statement, but after your comment, I looked at the rules more closely. It hadn't sunk in that the list would only be used at the deadline. So yes, I understand that there is no compelling reason to put out your list yet. But anyone discouraging the use of a list is scummy, IMO.

-JEEP

I think you're contradicting yourself. Early on, you voted Mgm, PWS for not agreeing with you on the list issue. And now you're saying that they weren't scummy. So what is it?

Zindaras: I’m not sure if I totally buy the metagame reasoning for starting the Skruffs wagon before switching to LML.

Skruffs and I have had earlier run-ins. He has caused my completely undeserved death in multiple games. So I want to get rid of that possibility now.

I don't find xyzzy's case on Mgm very convincing. In fact, xyzzy even misrepresents Mgm with this:

Translation: I on't want to take advantage of the tools I've been given. I don't want other people taking advantage of them, either.

When Mgm only stated he wouldn't do the Condorcet voting.

I think that most of xyzzy's posts are just flat-out bad.

Zindaras: You asked about where and how the players I meantioned pressed my buttons - I didn't actually note down the details, just the fact that they did. This was mainly due to it being early day 1 and I don't care to expend too much energy this early

But I want to know how I pushed your buttons.

It is always good to know how to push a woman's buttons.

God, my jokes suck.

I strongly dislike xyzzy's post regarding Mgm.

Unvote

Vote: xyzzy

, jeep, [LoudmouthLee, Skruffs, foolinc]

[Zindaras]

Huh? How am I saying they weren't scummy and how am I contradicting myself?

Anyone who DISCOURAGES the use of a list is scummy. That is clear from my post that you quoted, right? People NOT using a list, doesn't make them scummy. It's only if they discourage the use of a list.

I still need to catch up, but this caught my eye, so I'm responding now. I'll catch up on my reading tonight and post again if game night doesn't go too long.

-JEEP

Yeah, but I don't see how Mgm discouraged the use of lists. So, following your own logic, he wasn't scummy, but you did vote him.

[Zindaras]

when everything is still too hazy, so I'll do things the old fashioned way.

That's the rest of the sentence you quote from, and I think that makes it quite clear that he's talking about what he's going to do, not what everyone should do.

[Zindaras]

He says that he doesn't like it, and that

he

will do it differently. He doesn't say anything about what others should or should not do...

[Zindaras]

I think we're getting in a vicious circle of "Yes, he did"-"No, he didn't".

I see this as Mgm saying he will do something personally. I do not see this as Mgm saying he doesn't want other people to use lists.

Okay, so let's try this one more time. Where does Mgm actively discourage other players from using Condorcet lists in that post?

[Zindaras]

Wait, how was I misrepresenting Mgm AT ALL? I took what he said and I sais what it sounded like. The fact that he's good at not looking scummy doesn't mean that when someone says he's scum it means he isn't.

I'm pretty sure I made over 9000 grammatical errors in that sentence. Oh well, as least everything in this post is speled right.

This has nothing to do with what I'm saying. You "translated" one of Mgm's posts. Your translation is a woeful misrepresentation of the statement. It doesn't sound like it. At all. You took a statement which wasn't scummy and tried to twist it into something which was.

*sigh* I pointed out where MGM discourages the use of lists. I never said MGM was as blunt as I am. It's still discouraging the use of lists. It's like advertising. It rarely says: "Go buy this product now." (Don't start pointing out the few that do... I know there are exceptions.) Often you'll see people that you might recognize saying "I use this" or whatever. It's still (at least trying to) encouraging you to buy the product.

-JEEP

So we can decide to not use lists, but we can't say we're not going to use the lists?

[Zindaras]

I think we'd better agree to disagree before we fill the entire thread with clutter and repetitive arguments.

Though I think it's not the logical way to look at it, I'm going to accept your point of view as a possibility. I've got my eye on you, though.

[Zindaras]

Vitamin, Adele and Cessy are the ones that I'd like to see you elaborate on from that list.

[Zindaras]

Well, you really only mentioned her once. I guess that what you said there would somewhat lead you to believe her to be town, but still...

And I'd like to add PWS to that little list, actually.

[Zindaras]

Well, Mr. Phoenix, I might as well ask: why would you rather have yourself lynched than a no lynch?

Are you, perhaps, a Jester?

[Zindaras]

I hope your sister gets well soon, jeep.

Lee, please elaborate on the changes in your Condorcet lists:

You go from this:

Vote: MoS, Adele, Zinadras, Scruffs, [Jeep, MGM, Xyzzy]

To this:

Unvote, Vote: Scruffs, MoS, Zindaras, MGM, PWS, Xyzzy

Without any real explanation, with no posts in between.

[Zindaras]

If he changed it in immediately the next post, then it would be scummy, but without agreement on opinions, then there'll never be a lynch, unless by some amazing coincidence a majority of players agree at the very beginning.

I do not understand this post at all.

Yay thesp. ANd, because of your post, yay pooky. I snickered at it.
I was very impressed with THesp's play in Meadows of Sorrow and I feel he is a great player who will bring a lot to this game. For all the reasons you said above, too, minus the ""Are you trying to get into his good graces with a generic contentless message like "yay thesp"?" part. I'm not a butt kisser. (See former discussion with lml re: friendships nad mafia, playing of)

I think the more important point is that you posted an analysis based on

play

on everyone else, but not on Thesp. So why did you not analyze Thesp's play?

As a complete aside, I'm loving this Condorcet voting. I think it adds a lot to the game, discussion-wise.

Vote: xyzzy

, jeep, LoudmouthLee, [Skruffs, foolinc], [Adele, Cogito Ergo Sum, Cubsfan4ever, logicticus, Mastermind of Sin, Oman, PlaysWithSquirrels, PookyTheMagicalBear, Talitha, Thesp, Thestatusquo], [VitaminR, Dragon Phoenix, Mgm], No Lynch, Zindaras

[Zindaras]

Basically, I was saying that it's okay for people to change their opinions on the game, and to tell someone that this has to take a long time in a deadlined game is to ask that they help the scum.

This is completely besides the point. I asked him to elaborate, I didn't call him scum or said he wasn't allowed to change his list. But if you change your list, then you have to have a reason for it, and I asked him for that reason.

[Zindaras]

In regards to THesp - I made that opinion of him after his first post and before he started really posting about other things

At the time of your analysis, Thesp had already made four posts at that time, including this rather large post. I do not think there wasn't enough for you to analyze at that point.

Side note: I'm wondering if this entire game is being staged inside The Counte of Monte Cristo's head. And, I'm wondering what Frezno really has to do with it.

Claim: Stephen Hawking

.

Unvote

Vote : Dragon Phoenix

, [jeep, vitaminr, pooky], [mastermind of sin, cogito ergo sum,

adele

, loudmouthlee, cubsfan, oman], [plays with squirrel (TSQ's replacement), MGM], [everyone else I've forgotten about, Skruffs], [talitha, zindaras,

adele

], No Lynch.

Underlined for stress. Also note that PWS isn't TSQ's replacement: Tamuz is. And you would rather lynch yourself than Tally/Adele/me/No lynch?

[Zindaras]

Err, Mith, I cannot help but raise the fact that Mossy had limited access throughout the weekend. He came to me in a pretty darn hurry asking me to do vote counts for the Clue games. I'm not sure if you'd consider that...personally, I think we're being a bit too replace-happy.

Yeah, Tamuz, null tell is one of my favourite Mafia terms. It's because so many people attack people about things that aren't really any indicator of alignment.

[Zindaras]

But, that aside...

Call me a conspiracy theorist, but someone who wants clarification on a "Bah" post is someone who wants the town to ultimately think that they will be nightkilled, and will be "in need" of a Bah! Post. I don't know if that makes sense, but to me, anyone who asks for clarification of rules in thread (IE: Mod, I need clarification of my role) is generally scum. I have used this scumtell in scumchat numerous times, and I feel it's pertinent.

So town cannot possibly ask if they're allowed Bah posts? That's quite narrow-minded. I simply have, regardless of alignment, a pretty high chance of dying over the course of the game.

You're arguing a complete null tell.

I hate being attacked with faulty logic. I fight to the bitter end when i feel that a case is being manufactured with no basis to the truth. I am choosing to try to play the calm, cool and collected card right now rather than the guns-a-blazing typical LmL style. I would also appreciate you not talking down to me. I'm no newbie, Thesp.

You're acting like you're at Lynch-1, Lee. I think you're being overaggressive here.

Replacement discussion removed and taken to PM. - Mod

[Zindaras]

Have you ever known me to be NOT overaggressive?

Do I know you?

As far as I know, I've played one game with you. Mini 444. It was abandoned, it was different. I do not have much experience with you, I don't have much experience reading you.

Is anyone else having a deep unsettling suspicion of IH right now?

Not particularly, no.

Funnily enough, Lee isn't the one who is currently closese to being lynched...that's Battle Mage. So I don't really see why Lee should claim.

[Zindaras]

It would be very much appreciated if Primate and Glork would make it clear who, exactly, is posting what. It helps a lot with getting reads. You can't metagame someone when you don't know who it is.

I'd also like more people to provide input on xyzzy.

[Zindaras]

Surely it is usually obvious in a game where there are two mafia families, from the perspective of each family, because even the weakest mafia player has some concept of balance, and if their team alone does not equate to near enough the 1/4 ratio, they will have an inclination that another body of scum may exist.

BM

Such things can (and I've already seen multiple occasions where this held true) be balanced out by simply adding a couple of traitors. Speculation based on the amount of scum in a group is a very risky business, especially in large games. You can usually make pretty good guesses in Minis, but big games have far more intricate design.

[Zindaras]

An extension of the above point, forcing scum to constantly list all of their top suspects in order limits their ability to suddenly or strategically launch a new attack on a different player. While it does not completely eliminate this possibility ("I just did a re-read on Adele's posts, and I find her to be scummy for these reasons...."), it forces scums to keep up some similar threads of thought/suspicion from the very start of the day. It's *MUCH* easier to catch flip-flops and inconsistencies if we have repeated detailed lists of suspects.

I wanted to lift this out of Glork's analysis because I pretty much one hundred percent agree with it. I am very much enjoying the Condorcet voting in this game, and it gives us a lot more easy discussion topics that help with catching scum.

ZZ

Who's ZZ?

Eh, there's a lot of theory discussion in Glork's post, but then again he hasn't gotten through all of the game yet.

I'd also like more people to provide input on xyzzy.

I am going to quote this in every subsequent post I make until people actually start responding to it.

[Zindaras]

Are you sure Skruffs made it to Lynch -2?

If I am correct, Skruffs never made it that far. Two people who were already voting him voted again to change their Condorcet lists.

I'd like to note that although IH says he wants BM to die in 438, he puts BM behind Lee on his Condorcet list, which actually means he's keeping BM alive that way.

If i didnt KNOW he was protown, he would probably have been fairly high on my suspect list. As i do KNOW he was protown, i am naturally very wary of the arguments that are being manufactured against him.

If he had been high up on your list if you hadn't known his alignment, then the arguments aren't being manufactured (which has quite the negative connotation). Then the arguments are good.

Also, Mgm, that's rather silly.

[Zindaras]

Or because Condorcet voting only matters if we make it to the deadline. There's no particular reason why we'd have to make a list to accompany our votes in this game as opposed to other games at this point.

I will happily make a list if and when the deadline nears, but to do soon would be excessive.

I think this is close enough to deadline to make a list, Cessy.

[Zindaras]

You are allowed to change your votes, you know. And, quite frankly, I want to see your list now. As said before, if you post it now, you have a lot less variability and you can't just do whatever you want with it if you're scum without having to explain anything.

[Zindaras]

What Lee has said regarding his suspects:

Jeep/BM:

Why wouldn't we use it? It's a lot like a vote with a handful of FOS... I think it should be employed as soon as you want to start ranking people you think might be acting scummy...

So having said that:

vote: Skruff

, PlaysWithSquirrels, LoudMouthLee

I would love to know why I am now on your list, especially we're voting for the same person.

Is Jeep exhibiting a scumtell?

Tags corrected in quoted material. - Mod

It has already been pointed out how bad this logic is. It is perfectly possible to suspect people who agree with you. In fact, it is only normal.

Cubsfan:

*chirp chirp*

Zindaras:

Okay. Time for some typical vintage LML stuff. You may call them null tells, you may call them typical LML bluster, but the following things caught my attention. Prepare yourself. LML has turned on the charms.

Oman, iocaine powder doesn't have a smell.

Mod

, I assume that the wording for Rule 5 means that no "Bah" posts are allowed?

Please see the Post Content section of the rules regarding asking questions of the Mod.

The wording of rule 5 means that no "Bah" posts are allowed, correct. This is now explicitly stated. - Mod

I find it

very

interesting that Zindie felt a need for clarification on this point. That question makes me very uneasy. Quite like Zindy is looking for a way to seem more townlike. It's completely a hunch, but it's definately good enough for a D1 initial vote.

As said before, this is horrible logic and at worst a null tell.

Let's look at the 4 people who have their votes on me:

Adele - Rationale: Disagrees with my stance on random voting.
Scruffs - Rationale: OMGUS coupled with "misrepresentations that are not misrepresentations".
Zinadras - Radionale: Modified OMGUS (as I found his Bah opening post to be slightly scummy, and it was good as an opening post)

Now, I'm not even sure he finds me suspicious because of it, but I wanted to list it for completeness' sake. I do not see how this makes me scummy either.

More later, have to go now.

[Zindaras]

I can't say that I find BM's claim extremely convincing. Pierre Picaud isn't an extremely likely role. I'll have to hand it to him though that he sure managed to wrap it all in a nice package, with the comparison to a Cop. However, this is a Burglar, not a Cop. I also don't see how flavour correlates to role.

On the other hand, scum Burglars tend to be fairly unlikely roles, so that's a plus. I've also been doubting a lot about Lee, whose list does not seem to make a whole lot of sense, so I think it's better to switch my votes around a bit. I need to do some further reading. Lee and xyzzy are pretty much equal at this point.

As an aside, I forgot to quote this:

I'd also like more people to provide input on xyzzy.

Vote: xyzzy

, LoudmouthLee, [Skruffs, foolinc], [Adele, Cogito Ergo Sum, Cubsfan4ever, logicticus, Dani Banani, IH, Gaspar, PookyTheMagicalBear, Talitha, Thesp, Tamuz], [VitaminR, Dragon Phoenix, Mgm], Battle Mage, No Lynch, Zindaras

[Zindaras]

Dragged into fiction? This reminds me of Pooky's claim of Stephen Hawking. What is the flavour-explanation of your ability? A Burglar is a role which gets artifacts or information regarding people's roles. Like getting a magnifying glass from a forensic, things like that.

As far as your position on the list goes, I figure that you probably shouldn't be lynched today, and the Smith Set stuff confuses the living hell out of me, so I'm just making sure.

[Zindaras]

This reminds me of Pooky's claim of Stephen Hawking.

I'm gonna call this a Freudian slip and say you're attracted to wheelchairs.

Oh. Was it someone else? >.>

Oh, Stephen King? Well, it's only a difference of 3 letters... >.>

You would rather lynch a claimed cop role than yourself or no lynch?

Yeah. Of course. I don't find it very likely that BM is lying, but there's the possibility. He's hardly a confirmed innocent with this claim.

[Zindaras]

I tend to think Lee's claim is a lot stronger than BM's. It's not a fairly powerful role, but Mercédès is a reasonably likely role and I can see a link between flavour and role.

I think I'm running out of suspects. I'll have to take a look at some other people as well.

We need to lynch xyzzy, people. Seriously. We do.

I'd also like more people to provide input on xyzzy.

Vote: xyzzy

, [Skruffs, foolinc], [Adele, Cogito Ergo Sum, Cubsfan4ever, logicticus, Dani Banani, IH, Gaspar, PookyTheMagicalBear, Talitha, Thesp, Tamuz], [VitaminR, Dragon Phoenix, Mgm], Battle Mage, LoudmouthLee, No Lynch, Zindaras

[Zindaras]

Lee. Xyzzy. Now. Please.

Also, how did I suddenly drop 3 places on your list?

[Zindaras]

P: I missed the claim. ugh. It's annoying that we don't have a chance for people to possibly counterclaim, but claims like that are retarded in scums hands regardless. I don't think Cubs is that likely to be scum though.

@LML: I completely missed it.

Give me a sec to look at the lynchlist to see if there are other possibilities.

Xyzzy.

Vote him. You know you want to.

[Zindaras]

Madre de dios, that's a horrible post from BM.

I'll post a more expansive post regarding xyzzy later on (busy with something else right now, it'll be before deadline). Until then, I think I posted some things against xyzzy before.

[Zindaras]

EBWOP: I'm also somewhat interested in people's opinions regarding xyzzy's posts, rather than people's opinions regarding my case regarding xyzzy's posts.

[Zindaras]

"Madre de dios" means "Mother of God".

Why the

hell

would you want to No Lynch?

[Zindaras]

And why, exactly, is No Lynch better than Cubs? Or, well, pretty much anything else? Your explanation of the mechanics behind a No Lynch is all fun and games, but I want to know what motive I could possibly have for a no lynch.

The best way of making sure that LML is not lynched is to make an actual list and simply put him way down. Unvoting and doing nothing is not the way to do it. If anything, it is only scummy, since you are now indifferent between lynches.

[Zindaras]

lol calm down Zindy. I didnt say that No-Lynch is the ideal option. I'm merely trying to point out that there is no especial reason TO lynch now, assuming Cubs is who we want to die either way. I realise you may have a phobia of the words 'No-Lynch', but in this case, i really cant see what the issue is. If i come on tonight and i see that me changing my list around will make a positive difference, i will do so. Otherwise, i'm content enough to leave it how it is, assuming it is inconsequential for today.

BM

And it is your duty to make sure that the best lynch happens. It is your duty to make your suspicions clear. How consequential are our lists, really? How consequential is it to have 5 different levels of scumness/townness?

It's not. Not directly. But indirectly, opinion-wise, for future use in scum-hunting, it's all very useful. By unvoting, you reset your entire list, thereby indicating a complete indifference for who dies.

[Zindaras]

I think Vitamin and DP would also like to have a say in that, Mgm.

It's a matter of time until we Dutchies outnumber the rest. >.>

As far as xyzzy goes:

This is really his first post of note. This entire analysis of Mgm is based on little irrelevant things he twists into something resembling scummy. It all culminates in this:

To make it clear: I don't particularly like using Concordet voting this early in the game when everything is still too hazy, so I'll do things the old fashioned way.

Translation: I on't want to take advantage of the tools I've been given. I don't want other people taking advantage of them, either.

This is a fairly large misrepresentation, generalizing "I'll do things the old fashioned way" into "Nobody should use them".

His entire PbPA on Mgm is pretty much pulled out of thin air.

Wait, how was I misrepresenting Mgm AT ALL? I took what he said and I sais what it sounded like. The fact that he's good at not looking scummy doesn't mean that when someone says he's scum it means he isn't.

I'm pretty sure I made over 9000 grammatical errors in that sentence. Oh well, as least everything in this post is speled right.

I can't misrepresent people if I'm just saying what I think they said!

Very, very, very

[...]

very, very wrong. Good reviews stick with people; if I think someone's scum then 20 people say he

must be

town, then I'm going to agree with them because I'm inclined to believe townies and among that many people most will be townies (unless it's that 200 player game?).

Essentially a very weak point. Thesp isn't 20 people, last time I checked.

Lee, please elaborate on the changes in your Condorcet lists:

You go from this:

Vote: MoS, Adele, Zinadras, Scruffs, [Jeep, MGM, Xyzzy]

To this:

Unvote, Vote: Scruffs, MoS, Zindaras, MGM, PWS, Xyzzy

Without any real explanation, with no posts in between.

If he changed it in immediately the next post, then it would be scummy, but without agreement on opinions, then there'll never be a lynch, unless by some amazing coincidence a majority of players agree at the very beginning.

This point is also very weak. I ask Lee to elaborate on his changes, and xyzzy's counterpoint is that Lee is allowed to change his list.

"And if

I've

done it, it must not be scummy!"

Again, another weak one. If I do something as town, a lot, and then I see someone else do the exact same thing, it is quite possible to generalize your own situation and make it into a general rule. It's not a full-proof thing, but it's still not much of a thing. His response to Cessy regarding this stuff is also weak.

And now his final list:

Hmm... I guess this is my final list.

Vote: LML

, PWS, Mgm, Skruffs, [everyone else], no lynch, xyzzy

Note how LML is on top, but (unless my searching methods are really failing me)

there is no mention of Lee in any of his other posts

. PWS/Gaspar, his second target? Pretty much the same. Clear bandwagon-hopper.

[Zindaras]

thats all well and good LML, but why the hell would we want to lynch Xyzzy over Cubs? rofl.

God, you're awful.

Is there anyone you WANT to lynch?

lol had you been reading the game, you wouldnt have asked such a silly question.

Your Condorcet list has no preference between 19 of the 20 players.

This expresses an

indifference

between those 19 players. Which means, essentially, that you

don't care who gets lynched, as long as it's not you

.

@Logicticus, Zindy-I'll tell you what. Lets discuss this tomorrow. Ya know, so i can prove my innocence and make you both eat your words.

For one, proving your ability will

not

prove your alignment. It won't.


No, really, it won't.

For two, even

if

you are proven innocent, that does not necessarily mean you are right.

[Zindaras]

thats completely ridiculous Zindy. Its obvious who is going to get lynched. My vote wont change that either way. You can try your hardest to construe my actions as bad in any way you want-the fact is, my opinions have been made perfectly clear, and your incessant ravings about this are nonsensical.

"It won't change anything, so I'm better off just laying back and doing nothing."

It is

every townie's job

to voice his suspicions, to clarify his thoughts. By unvoting, you express nothing. You express indifference, and indifference is a scumtell. It is every townie's job to hunt scum. By expressing complete indifference, you simply state "I'm not hunting scum".

It doesn't matter when. Page 3 or Page 30, one hour before deadline or one week before deadline. It doesn't matter if the lynch is decided.

I'd say that me proving my role would go some way to proving my innocence. I've never seen scum with this role before at least.
And yes, whilst proving my innocence does not prove me right as such, it does categorically prove you WRONG in your suspicions of me.

If there is a role, it has had a scum version. Roles like Burglars are equally viable/useful for scum as for town.

Confirming your role does not confirm your alignment, period. You can argue all you want about it being a pro-town role, and to a certain extent that is the case, but

it doesn't confirm you

.

[Zindaras]

*scratches head*

In a way, a result of "no death" is possible. I also tend to believe a "Count of Monte Cristo" claim, since the game is kinda named after him.

[Zindaras]

EBWOP: I should probably elaborate on why I think that.

Mercedes was the Count's wife (or to-be-wife), right? They loved each other. So I don't really see them killing each other.

So that would also be a plus for Lee, I guess.

[Zindaras]

Time to change my little list. Cubs goes down for the Count claim. BM goes up due to his horribly scummy behaviour. Moving Cessy down on gut, Adele up on gut. I noticed something which felt off when reading her posts. I need to do a PbPA on her tomorrrow.

Vote: xyzzy

, [Adele, Skruffs, foolinc], [Battle Mage, IH, logicticus, Dani Banani, Gaspar, PookyTheMagicalBear, Talitha, Thesp, Tamuz], [VitaminR, Cogito Ergo Sum, Dragon Phoenix, Mgm], LoudmouthLee, Cubsfan4ever, No Lynch, Zindaras

[Zindaras]

OMFG. I AM NOT A BURGLAR. I dont know how many times i'm going to have to repeat myself over this. Suffice to say Zindaras, i've made my comments for today. I will know more tomorrow, and you will once again here my opinions then, should i survive the night.
If i do die tonight, perhaps then you will go back and read my comments, in order to SEE who i was suspicious of.

Mike's Flash Introduction to Roles. How is your role different from the Thief (I call it a Burglar)? You get information regarding his role. That's a Burglar.

I seriously doubt that, if I go back through your posts, I'll be able to see exactly what you thought about each and every player in this game.

@Zindy-seeing as the majority of your list seems to be based on 'gut' which is barely explained atall, you can see why i'm not taking your criticisms too seriously. lol

My opinions are clear. If people have questions regarding them, I can answer them. I'm trying to get the best lynch for the town.

You are lacking in all these things. You can go "NO U" all you want, but you're flat-out wrong.

[Zindaras]

I have not read anything since Day started. I, do, however, need to post 25 or more words to satisfy the mod. So I'm going to say that I'll get you guys a post tomorrow, as I was largely busy today.

[Zindaras]

Why did you pick LML for the duel?

As said before by others, I find this post somewhat odd. I thought Cubs's claim was an indication of Cubstown, so I don't see why Mgm didn't acknowledge the claim in this post, instead simply asking a fairly irrelevant question.

Why wouldn't that power be attributed to scum? Scum who have one or two daykills at their disposal - which a duel basically is - are rare, but it's not unheard of. The only thing that duel proved is that he had the power to initiate one, not that the results would be as he said they would be (kill a scum, guess: not kill an innocent).

How many times have you seen scum with a

public

daykill?

Also, if he was so obviously town, there were plenty of people who could've unvoted after the

claim

. If someone claims the main character you either believe them or you don't.

Wrong. After Cubs's claim in 601, the following people posted:

Battle Mage: With all due respect, the way he refused to provide a Condorcet list late yesterday was one of the scummiest and weirdest things I've ever seen a townie do.
Zindaras: Moved Cubs way down in 615.
logicticus: Moved Cubs down in 611.
foolinc: Moved Cubs down in 617.

So, yeah, you're wrong on that account.

I think Skruffs is far too agressive in 633. Somewhat surprised at xyzzy's death and reveal in 636. I don't think the discussion regarding xyzzy's death method is very relevant. I find Lee, even though he has some sketchy behaviour (I didn't like the flavour discussion regarding the day death, and I think his reason for clearing me, while endearing, is also somewhat tangential), to be likely town, mainly due to his claim. I don't really know what to think about the debate between Tamuz and Skruffs. I think both are somewhat in the wrong. I think Skruff's claim to have been blocked was completely uncalled for and a horrible move if he's town. Claiming to have been blocked is a partial claim, as only a limited amount of roles will know when they are blocked (assuming normal rules regarding blocking). I do, however, disagree with Tamuz's vehemence.

Note to self: Take a look at Adele and Dani.

Until then, a little list to keep you all happy (I'm not even sure if I can do this with my lists, but I really don't have a single major suspect at the moment. They all died):

Vote: [Adele, Skruffs, Mgm], [IH, foolinc, logicticus, Dani Banani, Gaspar, PookyTheMagicalBear, Talitha, Thesp, Tamuz], [VitaminR, Cogito Ergo Sum, Dragon Phoenix], LoudmouthLee, No Lynch, Zindaras

[Zindaras]

Ah, I thought you were an alt. Well, happy birthday, then.

[Zindaras]

Okay, the question wasn't irrelevant per sé, it's just that it would most definitely not be the question that would jump to my mind immediately.

[Zindaras]

Mgm's claim is rather weak.

So Zindy if you disagree with my vehemence, what do you think of the relationship between Thesp and Skruff.

Skruffs constantly pokes happy vibes and a George Bush like support to Thesp (allowing that Thesp is Dick Cheney). And then once Skruffs gets under fire Thesp is there, the gallant knight in shining armour to help bail his childe out.

I

really don't believe those two would be masons. If anything scum would be more believable.

Uhh, I haven't looked at this one yet, I'll take a look at it.

Zindaras: You've made a "note to self" to look at both Adele and Dani, but Adele is listed at one full notch higher than Dani. Before re-reading, what distinguishes Adele from Dani on your most recent list?

Gut. I had a gut feeling that Adele was scum. I just told myself to reread Dani because I don't really remember anything from him, and I wanted to get a better read.

As an aside, Pooky's last few posts have been giving me good vibes. Time to update my little list. Note on my list: my opinions on the people who I currently have listed as town aren't very strong.

Vote: [Mgm, Adele, Skruffs], [IH, foolinc, logicticus, Dani Banani, Gaspar, Talitha, Thesp, Tamuz], [VitaminR, Cogito Ergo Sum, Dragon Phoenix, PookyTheMagicalBear], LoudmouthLee, No Lynch, Zindaras

[Zindaras]

I'm amused that I went from town to scum in Mgm's book simply because I voted him.

[Zindaras]

I'm amused that I went from town to scum in Mgm's book simply because I voted him.

You should ask for your money back. That mindreading class was a total scam.

So what was it?

[Zindaras]

Hi. I will have very much limited access for the coming two days. I'm unsure if I'll be able to post at all in the meantime. So here are more than 25 words for survival purposes.

[Zindaras]

Sneaking in a post while I should be working.

Regarding secret words: All I'm going to say is that I have one.

[Zindaras]

It's a beautiful day, the sun is shining, I feel good, and noone's going to replace me now.

Okay, well, it's not a beautiful day, the sun isn't shining at all, and I'm not feeling

that

good either, but at least I'm not getting replaced.

Right?

Mucho posto tomorro.

[Zindaras]

I don't like how Logictus figured out MGM's claim 8 minutes after he posted.

This is an odd post. Why wouldn't someone be able to do it in 8 minutes? I think it could be done in even less. This looks like reaching.

Speaking of Mgm, I've taken a look at jeep's and xyzzy's posts and discovered that mgm, PlaysWithSquirrels (who was replaced by Gaspar), LoudMouthLee, and Skruffs are common votes between both players. There has to be a reason that both were nightkilled instead of scum attempting to get the town to lynch them.

Nightkill discussion is inherently WIFOM. Drawing conclusions from it is very much scummy. Also, note that while BM makes a reasonable amount of sense as Mafia kill, I doubt it very much that xyzzy was killed by scum (barring scum setting up for a Vig claim).

I, too, have a secret word. I used it twice yesterday. I don't know what, if anything, happened with it. I had asked the mod what it does and if everyone has one (like Verbose). Mr. Grey put on his charms and told me that he couldn't answer either of those questions.

Wait, everyone had a secret word in Verbose? Were they relevant in that game?

Gaspar's 763 is really good, points out a lot of flaws in foolinc's post. DP's 764 needs to be looked at again later. Especially his analysis of Adele (little to go on) seems somewhat odd. Adele's QFT'ing of IH's "8-minute" stuff is very disconcerting.

Your right, he most likely would have been the lynch of day 2, maybe even a quick lynch. Isn't there a possiblity that the mafia would set up someone to be that guy? I'm still not quite sure that the poisoning (or whatever sort of attack caused a delayed heart attack) of Xyzzy was done by a vig either. Call it gut, but even though the game is only loosely based on The Count of Monte Cristo, with the way Xyzzy died that I think their is a serial killer in the game (I guess a second family that uses poison could also be a possiblity as well).

Why would the poison have to be because of a Serial Killer?

I don't think a second Mafia would kill xyzzy. That's a silly idea. Xyzzy was a fairly likely lynch. His death was either caused by a vig or someone who's trying to look like a vig. And Mafias don't use their kills like a Vig, period. Foolinc also does a 180 on Gaspar. I agree with Lee that Mgm's post regarding the doc is rather scummy and odd, but I don't think it's as blatant as Lee would like us to think.

Mgm has not explained why I moved up on his list, so I'm going to move him up on mine until he does.

Looking through Skruffs's list, I have been on the following positions:

Day One: 2-18 (shared with 2 others)-17 (shared with 3 others)-6 (shared with 15 others)-13 (shared with 8 others)-8 (shared with 12 others)
Day Two: 2 (shared with 15 others)-4 (shared with 13 others)-5 (shared with 12 others)-6 (shared with 3 others).

There is no mention of me between the sudden shift upwards. I've been pretty far down on his list for most of the game, so I don't understand why I've suddenly gone up.

Vote: Mgm

, [Adele, foolinc], [IH, Skruffs], [Dani Banani, Talitha, Thesp, Tamuz, Cogito Ergo Sum], [VitaminR, logicticus, Gaspar, Dragon Phoenix, PookyTheMagicalBear], LoudmouthLee, No Lynch, Zindaras

[Zindaras]

Is nightkill discussion inherently not useful?

My opinion is that, barring extreme cases (like Mafia 60, as you were bound to bring up that one), nightkill discussion is useless or almost useless. There are some cases where it becomes more useful, but they usually involve doc claims and other such powerful claims, claims that would be expected to die the next night. And even then, it's a weak line of discussion. The argument "X died. X was suspicious of Y, so Y must be his buddy!" is an extroardinarily weak argument, and I find it very scummy.

Do you think LmL has ulterior motives in pushing the Mgm wagon?

No. I just think he's overstating the importance of that post.

[Zindaras]

I think any Townie would recognize the WIFOM in "The scum killed X. X was suspicious of Y, so Y must be scum" (buddy was a wrong pick of words in that particular post). Therefore, I don't think they would make the argument to begin with.

Considering the fact that scum are usually more interested in hunting power roles and killing people that are viewed as town, the logic is even worse.

[Zindaras]

I don't think the argument concludes, "Y must be scum", it usually goes "Y

might be

scum", and the WIFOM is debatable. If there's demonstrable evidence to suggest that the nightkill is not prompted by powerrole hunting, it's perfectly reasonable to consider why the person killed was killed,

since it can give clues as to who the scum are

. Though the reliability of it is far from certain, I'm not sure why you would want to deny that tool, nor am I convinced of your argument re: scumminess of those who make the arguments.

How are you going to have demonstrable evidence that the nightkill wasn't motivated by powerrole hunting? And even if we do have that evidence, it doesn't mean that the nightkill is necessarily motivated by a desire to kill someone who is suspicious of scum.

We don't know what motivates the scum to kill who they kill. As I said before, barring extreme cases, night kills are extremely limited forms of information. Case in point: Newbie 321. I killed CDB on Night 1 because he was the only one who'd be able to also see that Stoofer was a Doc (which I had seen). Everyone else thought it was because the killer was an idiot. (which, maybe, I am, but that's another issue entirely)

[Zindaras]

It's not "might", it's "will very likely". If you make a really good case for the nightkill being relevant, sure, go ahead. As I said, extreme cases. But, to get this back to relevant issues, this time it was most certainly not an extreme or a relevant case.

[Zindaras]

I'm amused that I went from town to scum in Mgm's book simply because I voted him.

You should ask for your money back. That mindreading class was a total scam.

So what was it?

Mgm really needs to start answering this question.

I continue to like my theory about characters from the book being scum.

This is a silly-ass theory which is fishy in nature.

Now that IH has claimed to not be from the book AND fossed any claims to the main character, that the game is titled after, i am pretty sure he's'a good lynch.

I have a theory about the game's setup, but. Not sure if talking about it is kosher. IH is not only fishing, he's'propagandizing.

Would anyone else care to claim to be explicitly from frezno and not the book?

Why the hell ask this question if we already have two dead Fresninians?

[Zindaras]

"Why the hell ask this question if we already have two dead Fresninians? "
I can't tell if this is counter fishing, or not.
I said I have a theory.

We have two dead Fresninians. Knowing this, there is no need to know if

other

people are from Fresno.

Zindaras - IH's theory - that scum come from the book - means that LML and MGM - who have both claimed characters from the story series - are scum. One of those players, LML, was challenged to a duel where he would have died, if scum. He did not.

And IH's theory doesn't strike you as odd? Are you also claiming to be from Frezno?

"This is a silly-ass theory which is fishy in nature."

I think that's quite a strong counter-statement. I'm not saying I am or am not from the book. Don't even go there.

[Zindaras]

Sorry for disappearing yesterday, I'll try to look into this stuff later.

It's odd to see both Skruffs and Thesp die, with the supposed link between them...

[Zindaras]

FoS: Tally

Explanation later.

[Zindaras]

FoS: Tally

Explanation later.

Post 1018.

[Zindaras]

It's slightly odd, and makes you look slightly more suspicious, but each scum group might have thought the other group would kill you.

This post. How would this make sense, pre-N2? During the first cycle, we had two kills (I'm counting xyzzy's death here). Xyzzy doesn't make sense from a scumteam's perspective. Now, BM does. So, after N1, how would the scum know there was another scumteam and play according to that? And how do we know there are two scumteams now?

The certainty of two scumgroups this seems to present distresses me greatly.

[Zindaras]

If you take a look at Verbose 2, mith's last game, you'll note that (unless I'm reading it wrong), there was an Italian Mafia, and the Italian Mafia were the only scumteam.

[Zindaras]

I would disagree (Traitors, Town roles, things like that can mess with numbers), and even if I would agree, the evidence from Night 1 suggests only 1 team, and I simply cannot see a rational scumteam play while taking into account the presence of another scumteam in this situation.

Also, I'm absolutely psyched to finally get to play with MeMe. I haven't been able to do that before. ^_^

[Zindaras]

OK then - out of curiosity Zindy, what do you see as the likeliest explanation for why foolinc was not killed overnight?

Either the scum wanted to get him lynched or they simply don't care about him (which would imply a scum roleblocker or some other powerrole).

Until Mith updates the method of death (if I saw correctly, both Thesp and Scruffs were murdered), while Xyzzy was...

xyzzy (Barbara Morgan, Innocent) - myocardiacally infarced Day 2.

This seems to lend itself to THREE killing parties, not two. A player of your claiber should not miss something this major.

Actually, while I forgot about the different kill methods, note that I nowhere suggest that xyzzy was killed by a second scumteam. My suggestion was that, looking at xyzzy's death, a scumteam wouldn't assume that it would be the work of another scumteam.

Right now, I'm going to make a mini condorcet and chage my vote. I thought Zindy was pro-townish (mainly because I thought Thesp was pro-townish), but after re-reading D1, I'd like to see him swing.

Wait, what?

[Zindaras]

I think MeMe should reread the thread and give us some awesome postings of doom. Because that'd be awesome. And doomy.

In Board Games, Thesp made a post I analyzed to death. It was an "If X is scum, then Y, and if X is town, then Y". I believe it was about Kison. I'm not sure if he made something along those lines here, but if he did, then maybe we could glean something from where he put his buddies.

The second paragraph was probably irrelevan,t but I need 25 words. >.>

[Zindaras]

I'd never heard of the word lace in this particular context before. Then again, I am Dutch. Note, also, that you can lace someone's drink with poison (I believe that is a correct English sentence).

Of course, the fact that we already had a vote count from Mr. Grey without brutal poisony death does count for something.

[Zindaras]

This reminds me of Two-Headed. Intra-role fighting!

Also, I think Pooky has a point.

[Zindaras]

I don't like using PM wording for any real decisions. I think it is not only likely wrong, it is also a cheap excuse for a wagon.

[Zindaras]

I think the whole Mr. Grey as player discussion is a useless tangent. While I can't say I know mith's modding style, I don't think he'd use this kind of role, mainly because I think it's just plain silly.

and at this time, I am choosing to see Grey (assuming he is in fact in the game as a poisoner) as almost certainly a threat.

I think these are dangerous assumptions to make. I also think Glork is being too hasty with assumign that Mr. Grey must be scum if he is a part of the game. The comparison to MBL in Snakes on a Plane is definitely unwarranted, as MBL wasn't the mod in that game.

Tally's 1028 is bad.

foolinc: did not buy his doctor claim fully yesterday, but two scum groups could indeed have relied on the other to take care of him.

Do you really think that any scumteam would expect another scumteam after the events of Night 1?

I don't think LACE is a coincidence, here's why: It's linked to poison, it was used along with the victim's name right before he died, if the search function is to be believed, the word 'lace' has not been used by anyone on mafiascum since 2003, and it reminds me of the kinds of roles that mith had in Verbose 2 (The mafia had to post a certain phrase publicly in order to recruit the traitor). Just my opinion, but Lee is looking mighty shady right now.

The Mafia had to say "Et tu, Brute?" which, while technically incorrect (Julius Caesar never said "Et tu, Brute?". Rather, he said "Kai su, teknon?") is still a pretty famous quote. This is hardly a famous quote.

Lace does mean to poison, point taken, but it also means those pretty little doilies that people have on their endtables. You know, the ones that you put on a glasstop so the vase doesn't scratch the glass? Yeah. That's a lace.

Shoelaces!

Foolinc (town)

Why are you so sure about this?

I find it amazing that it's a phrase you use commonly yet you can't give a single timestamped example.

But you can remember something you supposedly wrote up a very long time ago.

I think these are good points.

Current Condorcet list, this warrants an update.

Vote: Talitha

, MrBuddyLee, IH, LoudmouthLee, [Dani Banani, Gaspar, Tamuz, Cogito Ergo Sum, logicticus, Dragon Phoenix], VitaminR, PookyTheMagicalBear, No Lynch, foolinc, Zindaras

[Zindaras]

Dani Banani should be Sarcastro, obviously.

[Zindaras]

Just a qiuck note: I find it amusing that you're critcizing the MBL-SoaP reference, which suggests taht godlike

protown

roles exist, while simultaneously criticizing my conclusion that Grey is probably scum.

I criticise everything that I think warrants criticism. I'm not going to post something obviously wrong just because it agrees with me (because it does not, in fact, help me, since it is wrong)

Incidentally, what do you think of the fact that Grey can be voted for, but no other flavor-based characters or nonplayers can be voted for?

I think it's odd, but I don't think we should rush into lynching him. If we can interact with him via votes, then we can probably interact with him via roles as well.

Sure. Say Group 1 killed Battle Mage while Group 2 attempted to kill Loudmouthlee. Neither group killed Fool, yet Group 2 would know that there's a different killing group out there. Furthermore, as people have already suggested, knowing the size of one's scumgroup might lead towards the belief that there are two scumgroups based on numbers.

Ah, that is correct, but Group 1 wouldn't know. Also, numbers are a very bad thing to base assumptions on. Traitors aren't unlikely roles.

Note to self: This is a sign that, if there are two scumgroups, Zindaras is either playacting very well or he's not scum. If there's one group, I think the chances of him being scum increase slightly.

Wait, what?

Because it's obvobv.

It is obvobv, yes, but I'm curious as to why you think it's obvious.

[Zindaras]

Mr. Grey missed my vote in 1192.

[Zindaras]

Lee's lynch could be viewed as any town lynch: from the scum's perspective (if he really was SK), he was a mislynch, so they will have treated his lynch as such.

[Zindaras]

You have no idea how tired I am. I'm absolutely wasted. I'll finally catch up to everything the coming week. I promise. Also, hi Setael.

[Zindaras]

Okay, so I reread Cessy's posts real quick, and this wagon on him is bogus. I believe it focuses mostly around this post:

The LACE thing is still bull. Wesson certainly doesn't seem the type for poisoning people. So I stand by my position from yesterday and just gonna say you all got lucky.

I agree with DP that the Pooky-thing was probably just spite. I imagine it would be very frustrating to get lynched as the SK over a theory that's completely wrong.

In which he, by the way, is completely right. For the rest, I don't see anything wrong with his posts, except that maybe his suspicions are a tad too perfect.

[Zindaras]

<3 Zindy.

Zindy how do you feel abot CES's replacement though? (as I said the same thing as you)

Well, looking at her posts, she does seem somewhat odd. I mean, even if you give her that she wasn't aware of the fact that LML wasn't part of Thesp's scumgroup or likely any scumgroup at all, the fact is that she builds

everything

(and I seriously mean everything. There are only two or three paragraphs in her entire post that aren't related to Lee in some way) on Lee's alignment. That's way overdone, and in a rather odd fashion, I must admit.

Setael really has to redo her analysis, because what she has now is nothing.

[Zindaras]

Hmmmm.... I think DP is implying that he is Modkillproof in post 1437., obviously a scum tell.

This seems really really silly and awkward.

[Zindaras]

It did look serious, and it wasn't really funny either.

[Zindaras]

Why did he self hammer?

I think he was just frustrated and wanted to end the day. He knew there was no way he was gonna talk his way out of it and just wanted to be done with it. I think you guys are overanalyzing the situation.

Now the question about why he said some of those things he did at the end are an entirely different matter.


I am with Pooky on not liking CES' "You guys got lucky" comment. It seperates us from him, us being the majority of the players. Even if I was 100% certain that LML was town and was completely against lynching him and defended him the whole way to no avail and he came up town, I would say "We got lucky." not "You guys got lucky." So I dont buy that defense.

vote CES

Logic, this is all you have against Cessy? Why are you voting him based on a comment like that? Why would scum make a comment like that? What does it even matter? He's right: the lace thing was circumstancial, and that Lee turned out to be scum was lucky. Wesson didn't kill by poison.

I do not see your point, and I don't see why you pushed Cessy based on it.

- Moved up Pooky and logicticus because of LACE 2.0 situation.

Please elaborate. What exactly do you think about this?

Tag corrected. - Mod

[Zindaras]

I figure I should at least try to update my list, shouldn't I? It's so...silly not to vote.

Setael moves down because of the analysis I made of her posting. I liked it. I'm whimsical like that. Logictitus moves up because of his silly vote on Setael.

I'm not sure who I want dead. I need focus. So I'm going to put No Lynch there, simply as a placeholder, because I don't know who to vote seriously.

I need to assess this better.

Vote: No Lynch

, [Talitha, MrBuddyLee, logicticus, IH], [Sarcastro, Gaspar, Tamuz, Dragon Phoenix], PookyTheMagicalBear, Setael, foolinc, Zindaras

[Zindaras]

It doesn't matter if I vote No Lynch, comprendo? Except I can't really cast a vote for any of the four, and I don't believe I can vote for all of them, so the No Lynch is an easy way out to still keep a Condorcet list. No Lynch essentially denotes a blank vote.

[Zindaras]

You're funny, Gaspar.

You're not accusing me of voting No Lynch, you're accusing me of listing MBL and logictitus in the same brackets. What's your point? Deadline hasn't hit, I've got time enough to change my list.

[Zindaras]

I still don't get the whole Smith set stuff.

Sarcy, why do you think Logic has to die?

[Zindaras]

I'm accusing you of fence-sitting, having all of the general game's top suspects at the top of your own list but refusing to distinguish between any of them. Your current position is completely unreasonable for any protown player.

Is there anything wrong with the way I've determined my list? I think it's fairly obvious why most people are at the positions they are.

Basically, Zindie, at this point: Nobody will be lynched becasue there is no consensus favorite between MBL and Logic (as you have aptly noted). If you choose to vote one of them over the other, we'll secure a lynch. Otherwise, we won't.

And it's still 2 hours until deadline. I will break the tie if there is one.

Do you really think that nolynching is a good idea at this point?

No, of course not.

Setael, I'd like you to make a list containing all players.

[Zindaras]

I find it amusing that you're demanding a bottom half to his list when you can't figure out the top half to your own.

I've actively said that I didn't know who I wanted to put above who, which is different from simply not mentioning them.

What about Logic only posting a top 4, then "everyone else" and then No Lynch and then himself? Saetel's list is, functionally, the exact same... yet you didn't ask Logic to outline anything.

Also bad, but I missed it when I was writing that post. I do think that Logic should explain that one. Also, here's a funny one for ya, Glorkybuns. You're ever-whining about how I'm not picking between logic and MBL, yet neither does Setael (which was also the specific trigger for me asking her).

So why are you not getting all angry at her?

[Zindaras]

Wait, wait, we have another hour? That helps.

[Zindaras]

That makes it easier. Logic, what's your name?

Vote: MrBuddyLee

, [Talitha, IH], [Sarcastro, Gaspar, Tamuz, Dragon Phoenix], PookyTheMagicalBear, Setael, No Lynch, foolinc, Zindaras, logicticus

[Zindaras]

I'm not sure if I'm doing this right.

Vote: Sarcastro

, MrBuddyLee, [Talitha, IH], [Gaspar, Tamuz, Dragon Phoenix], PookyTheMagicalBear, Setael, No Lynch, foolinc, Zindaras, logicticus[/quote]

[Zindaras]

Allow me to explain: I filled in the Condorcet stuff, and then I got a tie between Sarc and MBL. Tie=No lynch, so I tried to break it in favour of someone. By putting Sarc higher, I could achieve this.

[Zindaras]

No. Sarc dies instead of a No Lynch.

[Zindaras]

EBWOP: I think. I don't know. I don't get this Condorcet stuff.

[Zindaras]

Well, that was interesting. Question to Zindaras - what the

fuck

was that? Yeah, how about we

don't

try to lynch people at the last second before they're even given the opportunity to claim? I know it sounds a little crazy, but I really think it could work.

No lynch=bad, remember? I tried to get the best lynch I could, which would basically have been any lynch yesterday.

I still want Zindie to explain why he felt his earlier fence-sitting was justifiable. Consciously choosing not to try to contribute to a lynch is something I cannot comprehend, and wishy-washiness/indecision is definitely a scumtell in my book, whether you hide it or flaunt it.

I felt I wasn't ready to make a decision, period.

I think foolinc is town. I believe his claim. I think Tally's suggestion was rather silly: such roles are extremely rare and generally unbalanced as well. The Mafia probably have something which means they can ignore foolinc and see if they can get him lynched.

[Zindaras]

Lynching MBL or Logicticus would have given us a lot more information. I've basically been everybody's second-place Condorcet throw-in. Had you even expressed suspicion of me before the last minute of yesterday?

That wasn't the point. I looked at the stuff I got from Grey's site, and I thought I could lynch you, and not anyone else. It said that there was a tie between MBL and you. I was already voting MBL, so I couldn't get him any higher, so I went for next best, which was you.

Zindy: I would not say that a traitor role is "extremely rare". I have seen it in mith and DP games before. And can you please explain the "unbalanced" comment further? I don't understand how one role on its own could be considered unbalanced without knowing all the other roles in the game.

Ah, you're thinking Traitor. I thought you were thinking Recruiter.

[Zindaras]

Pooky, name me

one

game right now where I'm playing like I "care".

Grey, is it possible to get a shared account for this role? I rather like the game, believe it or not, and I would be unhappy to leave it. So I'd prefer to stick around.

Please see the Post Content section of the rules regarding asking questions of the Mod.

[Zindaras]

Do you think I care if I can find a game where you "care"?

You say you want to kill me because I don't care. I point out that it's something I'm doing on the whole site. So how is this a scumtell?

[Zindaras]

when it says put up, i really mean "show up"

Yeah. I had an important test week this week and I've been studying really hard, which is why I didn't post earlier. And now it's more or less over, so I can post more. Again, these posting patterns apply to me around the whole site.

The "See V/LA" isn't in my sig because I'm too lazy to remove it: it still holds, I still have limited access.

[Zindaras]

Come to think of it, I am not buying the mafia role blocker theory, unless someone can convince me otherwise; In every game I have been in with role blockers (pro or anti town), a role blocked player was informed that his/her nightly action did not go through.

Actually, ever since I've been coming here, I haven't seen anything but the opposite: blocked people aren't informed of anything. Maybe Cops and the like, but they usually just get "no result".

I don't get why people are still voting me.

[Zindaras]

So, tell me, how did I suddenly get turned into vote leader? All I can see is that Sarc decided I was a meaniepants who's not allowed to try to prevent a no lynch, Pooky decided I'm inactive scum, while I've been inactive all across the site for ages, and Glork decided that I'm sitting the fence, which is also a quite stupid suggestion, since I made my decision before we got a lynch. You want fence-sitting? Here. Go ahead. I posted an analysis 30 minutes

after

a lynch (it was a Nightless game) because I didn't want to rush my decision. You can call it bad play, you can call it whatever you want, but I make my decisions when I feel they are best taken, not when you do.

[Zindaras]

No, Logic made your decision for you. You'd have to be a wretchedly awful player to lynch a claimed mason at that stage in a day.

So now you're going to throw semantics in here? I'm not to be blamed for his claim. I came off the fence. Whatever my eventual decision was is irrelevant. I made it, I voted. If logic hadn't claimed, I'd still have voted.

Now, to answer Pooky, some gut reads:

foolinc's town. Pooky's probably town. I like Setael, like I said before. Glork's probably scum. The Glorkdar has been steadily pinging away, and if it says Glork's scum, he probably is. The other guys I'm not sure about, I'd put Silent Lee as second best.

[Zindaras]

I found Gaspar's defiant requests for me to claim very interesting, especially since I was nowhere near a lynch. Gaspar is reaching, and he's trying to force a claim where none is required.

Vote: Gaspar

, Silent Lee, [IH, Sarcastro, Talitha], Pooky, Dragon Phoenix, No Lynch, foolinc

[Zindaras]

Claim please, Zindy.

No.

No.

No.

Get it?

No.

I see absolutely zero reason to claim.

[Zindaras]

And, yeah, I agree with DP on this one. A Pookslynch is more likely than a Zindielynch at this point, since I'm not voting him and a switch in votes there puts him at Lynch-1.

[Zindaras]

He has been one of, if not

the

leading vote-getter all day, except right until now, and he asserts that a claim hasn't been necessary? If Saetel wasn't so damned stubborn, and if MBL/TSS didn't insist on putting their vote somewhere useless (sidenote: This fits with my meta on MBLscum, and I've definitely noted it -- assuming I survive the night, I'll actually go through and point out the specific reference to my meta on him, but for now I'll just point to Mr Stoofer's "Face-To-Face Mafia" in New York -- you can find it all there), you would probably be DEAD already. I mean, I know it doesn't matter because you're scum, but if you're town, you should have claimed long ago so we wouldn't be in yet

ANOTHER

single-digit-hours-to-lynchy situation with nothing in place.

Why would I want to claim if I were town? Why would I want to give the scum information I don't want them to have?

Zindaras, you are

OBVIOUSLY

content to let this town just sit around in their stubborn rifts. No claims, no lynches, keep on killing people off at night. And now, instead of doing something productive, you throw OMGUS at me less than 24 hours before day ends. I cannot believe that other players are so blind to this. It really seriously infuriates me.

My OMGUS is always very person-specific. Look at where these guys are on my Condorcet list: IH and Sarcastro are in the neutral camp, Pooky is even on the town side. This isn't OMGUS, Glorkybuns.

[Zindaras]

The OMGUS referred to your vote for me (see above on why your reasoning is terrible/wrong -- the bad kind of OMGUS), and it's also a reference to your noted failure to just vote Pooky. There is ZERO reason for you to be the cause of a no-lynch today if you are town. One of the only reasons you would want a no-lynch today if you are scum is if Pooky is your scumbuddy. I don't understand why you're voting for me. It's OMGUS, and it is :nothelpful:

My vote will switch to Pooky, but I'm just stating my opinion.

Between yesterday ("Logic claimed, so I made a decision in the end! I wasn't scummy for fence-sitting!")

No, I wasn't. I've already linked you to a game where I did a lot worse as town. I'm not one to rush decisions, and

you should know that

.

and today ("I didn't need to claim earlier, because

now

I'm not the most likely to get lynched!"), you seem to have a serious problem with thinking that the ends justify the means. I don't buy any of your crap, and I'm disappointed that so many others are just eating it up.

And I didn't have to claim today either, because at no point have I been close to a lynch.

[Zindaras]

If you vote Pooky, we get the required amount of people, Glorkybuns. So have fun.

Also, here are some tidbits from Gaspar's play (I wanted more, but I just realized we only have 10 minutes left, not 70. Stupid time zones)

This is pretty much his first mention of xyzzy. Up to then, he had him as completely neutral. While I agreed with him at that point, in retrospect this gives me a very bandwagony feeling.

No changes to my Condorcet because I'm lazy, but if I made a change, I'd just bump Thesp up a little bit.

This is the kind of visible distancing-but-not-really that I so often see scum do.

Vote: Pooky

, Gaspar, Silent Lee, [IH, Sarcastro, Talitha], Dragon Phoenix, No Lynch, foolinc

[Zindaras]

Oh, by the way, Glorkybuns, you seem to have spent most of yesterday focusing on such great lynch targets as Mr. Grey, petroleumjelly, and Violet. Where'd that go?

[Zindaras]

So it turns out Pooky was town. Who would've guessed? Besides all the people who were actually paying attention and trying to lynch the scum, of course.

Just to let everyone know, Gaspar and Zindaras are scumbuddies. I guarantee it.

By the way, I suspect that I may be daykilled. If this happens... well, hopefully you'll figure it out.

Vote: Zindaras

Your case is impressive in its absence. As, by the way, is Setael's.

Gaspar is obviously lying through his teeth. He's just trying to sidetrack us with a neutral claim. I don't buy it, not for one minute.

Vote: Gaspar

[Zindaras]

I'm really sorry for being as inactive as I was. I played a solid game at first, I think, but then I went inactive and was replaced. I don't know why Goofy claimed what she did, I thought I had a good claim with Abbe Faria.