Mini Normal #1838 - Game Over

[podoboq]

Official Vote Count 1.06

Lynching

With 13 votes in play, it takes 7 to lynch.

Zoronos (4): DierFire, MariaR, boring, Gamma Emerald
Lil Uzi Vert (3): Shadow_step, implosion, PenguinPower
boring (1): eagerSnake
MariaR (1): Lil Uzi Vert
nn30 (1): nn30
PenguinPower (1): Grendel

Not Voting (2): Zoronos, Slandaar

Deadline: (expired on 2016-10-18 15:22:00)

[Zoronos]

Penguin - Let's make the assumption of Bad Town for the moment, if only because I don't feel like digging into this more and would like to see what he contributes based on actual gameplay.
Who does that leave as your top scum read, other than LUV? (Again, putting LUV's unhelpfulness aside. Looking Actual scummy posting in thread)

[Zoronos]

VOTE: Zoronos
That response seems way too defensive.

He's not even voting me.
I'm mostly just calling him bad and sighing loudly.

[Gamma Emerald]

Exactly he's not even voting you and you start going into red alert.

[nn30]

VOTE: Implosion
Serious vote. He doesn't talk about LUV at all but then votes him. Trying to flashwagon are we?

I'm trying to figure out if I agree with you on this one or not.

Implosion's logic and stances seem, to me, to be very confused.
It seems like he's holding contradictory opinions and trying to justify them after the fact because he was playing off gut and didn't think through whether they made sense together (which leans towny).

My gut doesn't like his post, but I think that's because a lot of it is talking about himself. I want to call him scummy for that, but he's responding to a direct question about his behavior, so talking about himself makes sense. He's answering a direct question after all.

So basically my head and my gut disagree on that slot.

I'm inclined to agree.

In 61 Implosion makes some really thin analysis based on well... not much.

Also, in 61 he gives a reason for snake being scummy. In 62 snake calls him out on it (why don't you vote me then?) and in 64 he goes on to ask Zoronos why he didn't follow up his scumread with a vote. He ends 64 by voting Zoronos.

Here's what the problem I have with that exchange - he doesn't vote anyone in 61 himself (which contradicts his line of questioning to Zoronos in 64). After snake calls him out in 62, he claims to have a "number of reasons" to not vote for snake (wut?) and then goes on to vote Zoronos.

The play feels reactionary - he felt afraid of snake being so direct with him so instead of going toe to toe with Snake, he deflects and votes for Zoro.


VOTE: implosion

[MariaR]

Points to the text wall
No.

[nn30]

Also, implosion went dark after leaving his vote on luv. It's been ~18 hours since he last posted (compared to some pretty heavy activity on his part early on).

He could just be lurking for legit reasons.

Or he could have started lurking in response to getting some heat and just let the thread move past thinking about him.

[Grendel]

Oh, and just to solidify the lulz in endgame because this is great 1.) is honesty (happening now) and 3.) is honesty. I've been here a little over 3 months and my play style has changed every game. That would classify as undefined.

p-edit

You're either bad town or scum.

Ear tagging me with the label "bad town" is bad play. It does not refute me at all, and just makes voting me easy because if I don't flip scum you can just reason that I was bad town anyways.

Though that is more a Non-ai issue that people seem to have via knee jerk reaction to being scum read.

Lil is lynch bait going off my last game with him, and lynching him would be easy to do as scum. Therefore I don't care for that push, and youre heading that push.

You only submitted answers to my questions once it became popular. That's a big red flag dude.

Dierfire posted once this game (before Grendel asked the questions), and Salandaar hasn't posted at all, but Grendel didn't seem to notice that / take that into account when assigning reads. Giving a light town read because they haven't posted at all is nonsense (He says probability of scum in main list, but that assumes a PoE that can't really exist yet unless he's Super Confident in his scum reads on there)

But initial suspicion confirmed, hand-wave or over-analysis of non-alignment-indicating details. Your biggest determiner of order of response is "Who was reading the thread when you posted the list", so treating that as alignment indicating will likely lead you down a hole, since 'people that post more' are correlated with 'people that answer soonest'. So using that as an alignment indicator is a bit specious.

If anything, the answer I'd have been looking most closely at would have been "Are you often mislynched". A Yes to that answer might lead me to believe scum opening an AtE avenue. But he ignores that line of play. <In case people misread since apparently my posts get misread, I'm not saying this makes him scum I'm saying it means I think he's just doing it wrong>

Why are you implying that I couldn't possibly have caught scum?

I guess eliminating Deir, and Slander is a stretch. I could've sworn they both had said something shortly after I opened though. I was hoping I could narrow my search for scum so I don't second guess myself later.

PengiunPower had posted by that time, and didn't participate, so saying that I town read all the players who were around when I opened is a bad assumption. And Gamma who was there is a null read. Assuming that I'm town reading nothing but the most active players is a bad and lazy asspumtion. Gamma is null despite being top poster, you are scum despite being the third highest contributor. That correlation is bunk.

Okay so nobody actually said that they were often mislynched. And if they would have you soiled to opportunity by saying to watch for AtE at (2) in post 96. Only three or four people had submitted answers at that point so you clearly muddied the purpose of that question mr. You did in fact send a light scum read when I probed you, which you back tracked from. Which fits scum "voice of reason" player real snug. If anything you insiting that RQS isn't a valid means of catching scum sounds like scum annoyed that they got caught for the wrong reasons.

[MariaR]

UNVOTE:
Reasons.

[Zoronos]

Why are you implying that I couldn't possibly have caught scum?

I am saying that if you have caught scum, it is entirely RNG and has nothing to do with your analysis.
It did make me re-read Penguin to think about his actual content, so maybe you prompted something useful, since his questions have all been pokes without followup, and his vote on LUV was a lurker / Anti-town (rather than pro-scum) callout. So maybe something useful but we'll see.
I am going to inspect that, as you can infer from my question to him.

[boring]

If anything you insiting that RQS isn't a valid means of catching scum sounds like scum annoyed that they got caught for the wrong reasons.

I'm sorry, but you can't scream confirmation bias much louder than this.

[PenguinPower]

However, I'm enjoying the irony of PP bucking your analysis when he's going after LUV for his. Not that I'm not fond of LUV right now, either.

So. Many. Pronouns.

I don't know how to respond since it could mean to entirely different things.

[Zoronos]

Also, implosion went dark after leaving his vote on luv. It's been ~18 hours since he last posted (compared to some pretty heavy activity on his part early on).

He could just be lurking for legit reasons.

Or he could have started lurking in response to getting some heat and just let the thread move past thinking about him.

Also, implosion went dark after leaving his vote on luv. It's been ~18 hours since he last posted (compared to some pretty heavy activity on his part early on).He could just be lurking for legit reasons.Or he could have started lurking in response to getting some heat and just let the thread move past thinking about him.

This is not a bad observation.
I am inclined to agree with it, forebearing that he might just not be in thread yet for w/e scheduling reason. But +1.

[boring]

However, I'm enjoying the irony of PP bucking your analysis when he's going after LUV for his. Not that I'm not fond of LUV right now, either.

So. Many. Pronouns.

I don't know how to respond since it could mean to entirely different things.

What I mean is this: You're scumreading LUV for the answers he gave to Grendel's questions. You're being scumread by Grendel for the answers you gave to the same questions. You're unhappy with Grendel's interpretation of your answers. While I sympathize with your frustration, I find the situation mildly humorous.

Further, I find both you and LUV worth some scrutiny, but that I'm dissatisfied with both your and Grendel's decisions to base scum reads off Grendel's "RQS".

[boring]

EBWOP

Further, I find both you and LUV worth some scrutiny, but that I'm dissatisfied with both your and Grendel's decisions to base scum reads off Grendel's "RQS".

[PenguinPower]

Ok. That makes sense. Thanks.

But, I'm scum reading LUV for his lack of answers to the RQS AND his lack of contribution since. So...yeah...not the same.

[Grendel]

If anything you insiting that RQS isn't a valid means of catching scum sounds like scum annoyed that they got caught for the wrong reasons.

I'm sorry, but you can't scream confirmation bias much louder than this.

I have legitimately caught scum with RQS. I've legitimately identify'd town too.

I don't understand how people will treat gut, and tone like proper scum hunting methods, but will absolutely crap on RQS when is an excersie, that in my opinion, combines those things plus a decent degree of logic, and is an easy way to get a whole rosters worth of reads in sometimes just a few pages. Even if my reads were totally wrong I at the very least got to know a little more about who I'm playing with. I don't consider RQS to be a waste of time.

Utterly baffled by the general "lol no" response I'm getting this game.

[PenguinPower]

I have legitimately caught scum with RQS. I've legitimately identify'd town too.

I've done both flipping a coin. Doesn't make it valid.

Yeah. You're town.

[nn30]

I have legitimately caught scum with RQS. I've legitimately identify'd town too.

I've done both flipping a coin. Doesn't make it valid.

Yeah. You're town.

Agreed on the town read

[boring]

If anything you insiting that RQS isn't a valid means of catching scum sounds like scum annoyed that they got caught for the wrong reasons.

I'm sorry, but you can't scream confirmation bias much louder than this.

I have legitimately caught scum with RQS. I've legitimately identify'd town too.

I don't understand how people will treat gut, and tone like proper scum hunting methods, but will absolutely crap on RQS when is an excersie, that in my opinion, combines those things plus a decent degree of logic, and is an easy way to get a whole rosters worth of reads in sometimes just a few pages. Even if my reads were totally wrong I at the very least got to know a little more about who I'm playing with. I don't consider RQS to be a waste of time.

Utterly baffled by the general "lol no" response I'm getting this game.

it's a fun ice breaker, sure, and I think we can appreciate the effort you put in. I know part of my aversion lies in how weirdly you interpreted my answers. I can elaborate in a PM after the gave ends, if you'd like. Either way, there are very different, very plausible other explanations for people's responses that went unaddressed/unconsidered. So while you're free to form your reads however you want, it may not be helpful to the rest of us in our search.

Same goes for gut reads. You can't expect someone to follow another person's gut.

[Zoronos]

Ok. That makes sense. Thanks.

But, I'm scum reading LUV for his lack of answers to the RQS AND his lack of contribution since. So...yeah...not the same.

Ok. That makes sense. Thanks.But, I'm scum reading LUV for his lack of answers to the RQS AND his lack of contribution since. So...yeah...not the same.

Yeah, I know. Work with me here.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Did a reread and the following are my thoughts on posts and actions that caught my interest.

Page 1:

Snake claims a role. The role is Ascetic. Never heard of the role before but after doing a bit of research on it, it doesn't seem often used. If I'm understanding it correctly, I don't see a good reason to not to claim it right away. It's pretty useless for town and does nothing to help catch scum. It heavily favors scum as all tracker and cop actions will fail but also a negative because if you don't claim it right away, people will get suspicious if enough actions fail on you.

Page 3:

Penguin feels RQS is a waste of time and says that RVS is better but doesn't give a reason why. I don't understand why he would mention this and not defend why his preferred method of getting the game going is better. For now, I'm going to make a note of this incase he decides to change his mind on answering Grendal's questions.

Implosion finds Zoro's first post awkward because it looks like scum who can't think of anything to say. What exactly are you suppose to say in RVS? Is there an unwritten code of ethics for RVS? In the same post he claims that Eager's claim pings him really hard but doesn't vote him. Why?

- The part he brings up about Snake now being a free night kill for scum shouldn't be a concern in my opinion because as long Snake maintains his current level activity, we should have information we can use that can help lead us to find and lynch scum if scum do choose to kill him

- I don't agree with his take on Zoro's reaction to the claim. The claim is NAI. I also feel the role a majority of people in general would find interesting.

- Splits his post for whatever reason, and I kinda feel weird now since I agree with part of the first part of the second half of his train of thoughts. Why not just come right out and ask the questions? Who wouldn't we be up for some questions to kick things off at this point in the game?

- Don't agree with the middle part of this post however, we have a claim that is NAI but he calls this claim and the RVS posts a goldmine. I don't see how we have anything substantial. We had up until this point Gamma and Zoro commenting how negative the role is and then a shit ton of more RVS stuff. Dodges voting for Snake at the end of this point by saying he has his reasons as if he knows more than anyone else at this point. Sure bud.

Page 4:

nn's claims not being afraid to die is playing against your win con. I disagree, if you're town playing against your win con is actively choosing to not to scum hunt and if you're scum playing against your win con is not actively always trying to mislead the town. Not being afraid to die seems more of a personality trait. I say this because I'm the same way, at the end of the day this is just a game. If I die, I die. I hate losing as much as the next guy but I can live with myself if I know I tried my best and played to my win con.

Snake says nn is probably town and doesn't explain how or why.

Zoro really seems against RQS. I can understand why but at the same time I think he's making too big of a fuss about it. I don't sense an alternative motive from Grendal.

Page 6:

As Gamma pointed out and what I originally caught my eye when I did my first reread since I just skimmed the first time, Implosion votes me without even having mentioned me at all. I think we are still in RVS at this point right now but after I did this reread, I get the sense that this a serious vote. Would like to know if he has a real reason for voting me is or is just blindly following

Penguin decides to answer Grendal's question after all. Says he doesn't want to feel left out. Why does he care about being left out?

Shadow says he doesn't care about Implosion as he along as Implosion helps him find scum. He seems very confident that Implosion can accomplish this task, I'm starting to wonder here if he knows something we all don't

Page 7:

Snake explains what a gut read is and seems like he wants Shadow to explain his gut read on me. Shadow ignores this, I'm currently wondering why.

Page 8:

Snake gives out another read and says Zoro is probably town. Doesn't say how he came to this conclusion.

Boring decides to vote for Zoro and gives an odd metaphor to explain her thoughts on him. Later explains it and it doesn't click with me. Zoro has had to be forced in a way to talk about his self because he has shown a strong dislike for RQS and has had to explained his reasoning for not participating. It's clear why he gave town points to Grendal, Implosion seems to find other players scummier than who is he voting for but refuses to vote for them. This is a good point to bring up and should be brought up until Implosion stops doing it. If I'm understanding the role correctly, I don't see how claiming the role right away is awful.

Page 9:

More Boring talk in regards to Zoro. She talks as if the role that Snake claim is useful to town, in my opinion, it has no benefits to town so why act as if he can use this role in a way that would give town an advantage? I disagree in not needing a confirmed town Day 1. I think it's helpful and narrows down the pool of suspects and also makes a lot easier to form that town block Snake was talking about.

This is all I got for now but as always, I will take any questions.

UNVOTE:

[implosion]

Took longer than I thought to get to this game today so forgive what is about to be a multipost because I think they're more readable than walls. Alas.

Serious vote. He doesn't talk about LUV at all but then votes him. Trying to flashwagon are we?

Why yes, how kind of you to notice.
Early flashwagons are great.
And shadow so politely asked for people to join him. Frankly it's rude of you not to join him .

PP actually raises a pretty good point in 149 - you criticize me for trying to flashwagon with my vote on LUV (which was the second vote on him) and then vote me, also as the second vote, in a way that implies that you think it's still okay (or at least possible) for people to be making completely nonserious votes (which, ding ding, mine on LUV was). What gives? If being the second vote on someone amounts to flashwagoning, then why do you get a special designation allowing you to flashwagon? Or did you not really think that non-serious votes were still possible?

[Gamma Emerald]

You never mentioned LUV. That's the problem.

[Gamma Emerald]

You never mentioned LUV. That's the problem.