Mini Normal #1838 - Game Over

[Gamma Emerald]

What the hell

[implosion]

I also seriously question Gamma calling LUV town at the point of 161, implicitly for his posts on page 7. How is anything LUV said on that page a towntell? I don't care if he did this last game and he was town, that's a terrible reason to call this play town; it's not like it's difficult to emulate that as scum. It also makes me a bit more suspicious of Gamma. It feels like he's just jumping to that conclusion because it helps lend credence to his vote on me if LUV is town.

It seems like he's holding contradictory opinions and trying to justify them after the fact

I just disagree at a fundamental level that those opinions are, or should be viewed as, contradictory, for the reasons that (1) they can easily both be true and (2) we're not at a stage of the game where we should think about reads based on interactions.

I actually like Zoronos' recent posting more on a gut level that I'll try to justify more later, but I'm not particularly suspicious of him anymore; he's at least following pretty clear lines of thought. I actually also like his insistence that we shouldn't care about the ascetic claim; it seems somewhat more likely than not to be genuine.

[Gamma Emerald]

You missed my post. You never talked about LUV in your post you voted him in. At least a mention would have been good.

[Gamma Emerald]

And it's not that I specifically townread LUV, I just don't think that's a reason to vote based on meta.

[implosion]

@boring's 202, not quite true, it's not like his claim guarantees that he's going to die tonight. He could be an ascetic power role or an ascetic townie if he's town, and this really should be something we err on the side of not speculating about for obvious reasons.

I like PP's reaction to Grendel a lot, he gets town points. I very much dislike Gamma switching off of me and onto Zoronos when (1) I had given nothing responding to his "serious vote", (2) he criticized me for "trying to flashwagon" which makes it sound like at least at some level he disapproves of early wagons, and his vote on Zoronos casually makes it the largest wagon yet at 4.

Also, in 61 he gives a reason for snake being scummy. In 62 snake calls him out on it (why don't you vote me then?) and in 64 he goes on to ask Zoronos why he didn't follow up his scumread with a vote. He ends 64 by voting Zoronos.

Here's what the problem I have with that exchange - he doesn't vote anyone in 61 himself (which contradicts his line of questioning to Zoronos in 64). After snake calls him out in 62, he claims to have a "number of reasons" to not vote for snake (wut?) and then goes on to vote Zoronos.

You seem to be misunderstanding how I made those posts. Those were essentially two halves of one post; I essentially only read the thread up to a certain point, posted 61, continued reading, then posted 64. Note the last sentence of 61 explaining this. No reason to make a vote in 61 when I might make another in literally the next post. I mean, Gamma even explained this for me in 63. I also gave reasons for Zoronos to be scummy in 61, not just eagersnake. It's not like I voted zoro out of nowhere. I also don't really have much interest in lynching eager today unless he acts exceptionally scummy (and I think his play since claiming is somewhat town). The claim has a chance of sorting itself out for free if he's town and scum consider the free potentially-pr shot worth taking.

Also, implosion went dark after leaving his vote on luv. It's been ~18 hours since he last posted

For reference, on weekdays I mostly post right after getting back from work and right before bed. But I don't always get to the game after getting back from work. And I'll often peruse the game during work so I have some idea what I find interesting when I actually get to it later.

[Gamma Emerald]

I'm sorry, did I say I townread you when I voted Zoronos? No I didn't.

[Gamma Emerald]

This feels like an extended explanation of a OMGUS vote.

[implosion]

Not really gonna read Grendel or LUV's thick posts for now. Loosely, townpile right now consists of {shadow, nn, pp, eager, zoronos, grendel}. Why yes, for the observant eye, that does include all three people I called scum on page 3. They all started acting townier. I think Gamma is a great vote right now:
-his switch to Zoronos makes very little sense when he's gotten nothing out of his vote on me, and it seems to contradict his apprehensiveness towards flashwagoning (even if his problem with my vote was that I didn't explain it, that still doesn't jive with either the fact that he implied that we were still in RVS as PP pointed out, or him using the word flashwagoning when describing it which implies that he thinks early wagons are bad).
-the reason I had for weakly townreading him early isn't actually any good (it was 22, which is no reason to townread him if eagerSnake is town).
-he's managed to say a lot without really saying a lot. It took him 30 posts to get to his first "serious vote" on me, almost all of which is non-content and really none of which gives any indication on what he's thinking about anything (he mentions "a few townreads" without naming any). He's clearly engaged in the game. He does a lot of clarifying things (linking the wiki, mentioning that I have half a wall to go). But he gives no content. Just a bunch of stuff which gives the illusion thereof, until he latches on to literally the easiest reason to vote someone. I really find it hard to believe that the first thing he found seriously scum-motivated was seeing me, an experienced player, dropping a vote on someone without giving any reasoning. Would I really do something like that as scum but not as town? I'd hope he'd realize that there's no way I would do something like that as scum unless it's the kind of thing I'd do as town as well.
And I mean, come on:

And it's not that I specifically townread LUV,

LUV is town

If it was a bad reason to vote him based on meta, you would have said such; you did not say that. You called him town. In quite the most explicit way possible. You don't just get to say X, and then go back and say no, when I said X I meant Y.
VOTE: Gamma

[Gamma Emerald]

I forgot about that.
Also, you're not reading LUV's major contribution? Any reason other than being a lazy reader?

[implosion]

I'm sorry, did I say I townread you when I voted Zoronos? No I didn't.

This is a nice distortion of what I said; I said that you unvoted without having gotten anything out of the vote on me, and listed other problems with it as well.

This feels like an extended explanation of a OMGUS vote.

This is a self-defeating sentence; the definition of OMGUS is when player A votes player B for the reason that player B voted player A. OMGUS is not a meaningful phrase when describing votes that have other reasoning listed.

Am I not allowed to vote you without it being OMGUS just because you voted me? Does the fact that you voted me somehow give you immunity from being scumread by me, without it being scummy for me to scumread you because it's OMGUS?

Calling my vote OMGUS is just childish.

[implosion]

I forgot about that.
Also, you're not reading LUV's major contribution? Any reason other than being a lazy reader?

it's 1 am and I have work tomorrow.

[implosion]

(and on that note, good night.)

[Gamma Emerald]

Okay so you won't actually work on trying to properly read LUV. Call this OMGUS all you want, but you obviously don't care about having good townreads, you just like to throw shade.
VOTE: Implosion

[Shadow_step]

So, do you believe eagersnake?

Have no reason not to at this point. How about you?

What is your current read on him?

Null. Yours?

This is a very safe stance
How can you believe him and not town read him even if slightly ?

Like mafia ascetic is very strong modifier for mafia, unless you believe that town would have those many PRs to counter that.
Hence you null read him. But I doubt you would have thought that much.

[Gamma Emerald]

Shadow what is your opinion of LUV right now? He did do a larger post since you last checked in.

[Shadow_step]

He does stuff after he's prompted to do it.
My read hasn't changed on him.

[Gamma Emerald]

No change at all?

[Shadow_step]

@Dier, I'm waiting for those walls man.

@mod, can we have a replacement for Slandaar if he is town and a modkill if he is mafia? K thanks

[Shadow_step]

No change at all?

His wall is mostly commentary.

[Gamma Emerald]

Okay Shadow. I think you're town.

[Shadow_step]

Good this should be an easy game. I have a couple of town reads too.
Need to hear more from Slandaar/Maria/Diet to sort them out.

[Slandaar]

Sorry for turning up late will catch up later today.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Not really gonna read Grendel or LUV's thick posts for now. Loosely, townpile right now consists of {shadow, nn, pp, eager, zoronos, grendel}. Why yes, for the observant eye, that does include all three people I called scum on page 3. They all started acting townier. I think Gamma is a great vote right now:
-his switch to Zoronos makes very little sense when he's gotten nothing out of his vote on me, and it seems to contradict his apprehensiveness towards flashwagoning (even if his problem with my vote was that I didn't explain it, that still doesn't jive with either the fact that he implied that we were still in RVS as PP pointed out, or him using the word flashwagoning when describing it which implies that he thinks early wagons are bad).
-the reason I had for weakly townreading him early isn't actually any good (it was 22, which is no reason to townread him if eagerSnake is town).
-he's managed to say a lot without really saying a lot. It took him 30 posts to get to his first "serious vote" on me, almost all of which is non-content and really none of which gives any indication on what he's thinking about anything (he mentions "a few townreads" without naming any). He's clearly engaged in the game. He does a lot of clarifying things (linking the wiki, mentioning that I have half a wall to go). But he gives no content. Just a bunch of stuff which gives the illusion thereof, until he latches on to literally the easiest reason to vote someone. I really find it hard to believe that the first thing he found seriously scum-motivated was seeing me, an experienced player, dropping a vote on someone without giving any reasoning. Would I really do something like that as scum but not as town? I'd hope he'd realize that there's no way I would do something like that as scum unless it's the kind of thing I'd do as town as well.
And I mean, come on:

And it's not that I specifically townread LUV,

LUV is town

If it was a bad reason to vote him based on meta, you would have said such; you did not say that. You called him town. In quite the most explicit way possible. You don't just get to say X, and then go back and say no, when I said X I meant Y.
VOTE: Gamma

How can you have town read on those 3 if you know they're acting?

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Good this should be an easy game. I have a couple of town reads too.
Need to hear more from Slandaar/Maria/Diet to sort them out.

You keep implying this game will be easy. I seriously hope you have a backup plan for when I flip town.

[Gamma Emerald]

I promised boring I'd talk about this when I got input from Grendel, so:
The unclaiming thing was when pretty much all the players were forced to no-claim miller and bleeder. I wanted to check who did it more, town or mafia. Mafia seemed to do it more. I think Eager is town right now, FYI. If he was scum, he probably would have claimed miller.