Mini Normal #1838 - Game Over

Gamma Emerald
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Post Post #325  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 06, 2016 5:36 pm

In post 323, Zoronos wrote:
In post 312, PenguinPower wrote:Basically, either his personality is so in favor of winning internet arguments that he's willing to lower his chances of winning for it, or he's town being contentious for the sake of being contentious.

Por que no los dos?
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eagerSnake
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Post Post #326  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 06, 2016 5:56 pm

So Gamma is probably town then, cool.

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Post Post #327  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 06, 2016 6:11 pm

@Zoronos: I get what you're saying. I don't necessarily agree.

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Post Post #328  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 06, 2016 6:44 pm

In post 326, eagerSnake wrote:So Gamma is probably town then, cool.


Explain?

boring
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Post Post #329  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 06, 2016 7:54 pm

Gamma is acting exactly like he did in our last game. I tunnelled him for it because he's easy to mislynch. I'm also doubting my scum read on Zoronos. He's just barrelled on without a single adjustment to his behavior. It's not something I'd expect from someone I'm scum-reading for being fake. They're each either cleverer at playing scum than I'm willing to entertain at the moment, or they're not scum.

UNVOTE:

implosion
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Post Post #330  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 06, 2016 8:02 pm

nn wrote:Also that from 247 - 261 he addresses a significant number of issues, but ignores the ones I've raised with him.

False? I address them directly in 254.

@Grendel, and @anyone else who wants to know why PP is town: PP's reaction in and makes me think town for a few reasons. 1, I think he shows genuine contempt, and that contempt indicates that he genuinely doesn't think your points have merit, meaning he's either town, or he's scum who thinks your line of reasoning is completely wrong which I find less likely because 2, it's antithetical to what I saw of PP's play in my other game with him. I pressured him a lot in that game; I was town, he was scum and he was, I think, a bit more hesitant to engage on such a direct level with calling the arguments I was making bad. He answered the queries I had about him and didn't really comment as much on the quality of my reasoning, iirc. Or at least it doesn't stick in my mind. I think the reaction of calling you bad town or scum is relatively unlikely to come from the scumgame that I saw in that game. 3, those posts in addition to contempt show a certain level of him feeling like he's in-the-right (since he's talking about how he was just being honest with his answers) that I think is consistent with town who feels like they've been accused for bs reasons.

Gamma wrote:Keep the shovel: makes it easier to tunnel.

Another case of Gamma misrepresenting things; PP isn't tunneling Gamma by any stretch, he had just given his first significant post explaining why he thought Gamma was scum and his vote wasn't even on Gamma.

Zoronos wrote:Gamma strikes me as the kind of person that likes to be 'technically correct'.

Ironic since I can think of at least three counts in this game where he has used terminology (omgus, tunneling, and even literally calling LUV town) to mean things that they don't mean at all.
Zoronos wrote:This kind of play annoys me, however, I feel that it is less likely to come from scum because it's an inherently antagonistic stance. He didn't call me scum for thinking about Ascetic in terms of being like Miller since they were both negative utility; he just called me wrong and insinuated that I was bad.

If anything this is scummier than if he had called you scum for his analysis; by taking the antagonistic stance towards you without actually giving any meaningful commentary on your alignment to go with it, he provides the illusion of content. And I don't think contentiousness is an aspect of personality that scum are likely to consciously mute to a large degree; maybe somewhat but *shrug*.a

implosion
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Post Post #331  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 06, 2016 8:06 pm

boring wrote:Gamma is acting exactly like he did in our last game.

Can you quantify exactly what you find similar?

A note on Zoronos: I actually think I might have trouble reading him accurately. He feels very town but I think there's a pretty decent chance that I'm just reading him based on playstyle. I like the way that he's analyzing the game.

Gamma Emerald
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Post Post #332  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 06, 2016 8:10 pm

Yeah implosion is town.
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implosion
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Post Post #333  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 06, 2016 8:11 pm

And I think the most damning thing about Gamma (which I've mentioned but no one seems to have noticed) is still this It's indicative that he doesn't actually have a consistent internal state of reads in his head; if he actually didn't hold the opinion that LUV was probably town, he straight-up would never have explicitly called LUV town. The fact that he called LUV town and then said that he doesn't actually believe LUV is town (just that a particular argument was bad) is very strong evidence that he's just pretending to have reads on people.

boring
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Post Post #334  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 06, 2016 8:16 pm

In post 331, implosion wrote:
boring wrote:Gamma is acting exactly like he did in our last game.

Can you quantify exactly what you find similar?


Everything.

His opinions are hard to pin down, rendering him inscrutable. He's too brief with his explanations and doesn't seem to ever be quite on the same wavelength with the person he's talking to. This will become increasingly infuriating as the game goes on, which is why he's low-hanging fruit. Despite it all, he displays a few striking moments of clarity and insight.

I've never seen him play scum. I don't know if his scum game is just like this too. It's just that this is what his town game was like last time.

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Post Post #335  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 06, 2016 8:28 pm

In post 332, Gamma Emerald wrote:Yeah implosion is town.


So:

Won't read LUV = scum > Will read LUV later = leantown > Still hasn't read/posted about, but post stuff about PP = town.

Dude...seriously.

I'm actually done with LUV for now.

VOTE: Gamma

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Post Post #336  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 06, 2016 8:29 pm

In post 335, PenguinPower wrote:
In post 332, Gamma Emerald wrote:Yeah implosion is town.


So:

Won't read LUV = scum > Will read LUV later = leantown > Still hasn't read/posted about, but post stuff about PP = town.

Dude...seriously.

I'm actually done with LUV for now.

VOTE: Gamma

The fact that so many people townread me and yet he doesn't makes him Town.
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Post Post #337  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 06, 2016 8:31 pm

In post 336, Gamma Emerald wrote:The fact that so many people townread me and yet he doesn't makes him Town.


Great. So, I'm town?

Gamma Emerald
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Post Post #338  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 06, 2016 8:32 pm

In post 337, PenguinPower wrote:
In post 336, Gamma Emerald wrote:The fact that so many people townread me and yet he doesn't makes him Town.


Great. So, I'm town?

Eh not as much but sure.
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i would unironically put mafia loyal vigs in games for the record - Acidphoenix

Dierfire
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Post Post #339  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 06, 2016 10:29 pm

My apologies to everyone--I overestimated the amount of free time that I would have this week. Fortunately, this is a short-term problem, and I expect to return in roughly 12 hours with sufficient time to get completely caught up.

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Post Post #340  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 06, 2016 11:40 pm

I on the other hand will potentially though not necessarily be inactive until Saturday afternoon as I'm on a trip.

Zoronos
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Post Post #341  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 06, 2016 11:50 pm

In post 330, implosion wrote:I think the reaction of calling you bad town or scum is relatively unlikely to come from the scumgame that I saw in that game. 3, those posts in addition to contempt show a certain level of him feeling like he's in-the-right (since he's talking about how he was just being honest with his answers) that I think is consistent with town who feels like they've been accused for bs reasons.

Do you feel it could be consistent with a scum who feels like they've been accused for bs reasons?

In post 330, implosion wrote:Ironic since I can think of at least three counts in this game where he has used terminology (omgus, tunneling, and even literally calling LUV town) to mean things that they don't mean at all.

Alas that hypocrisy is not alignment indicating. But actually being correct or incorrect is irrelevant to the point I was making; it was about personality and how he chose to engage with the thread / other players.

In post 330, implosion wrote:If anything this is scummier than if he had called you scum for his analysis; by taking the antagonistic stance towards you without actually giving any meaningful commentary on your alignment to go with it, he provides the illusion of content. And I don't think contentiousness is an aspect of personality that scum are likely to consciously mute to a large degree; maybe somewhat but *shrug*


I don't think arguing about what a Miller is is likely to trick anybody into thinking that's valid content. It's pointless quibbling. Also, scum in my experience definitely mute pointless quibbling. Why be hostile to the people on whose good side you need to rely. Some personality types will do it anyway, but most will tamp it down. Not a solid tell, but enough to move the needle slightly.

As to the scumminess thereof, other players in this thread certainly tried that line. He could have +1'ed it and doubled down at any time on those player's votes. He chose to not do so. He seemed content to assume I was town or neutral and moved on with the game. He seemed to basically ignore me until I picked a fight with Grendel over Random Questions. If any conclusions can be made here, it's that was willing to board mid way when others had already started up the train, and when I got aggressive against Grendel.

However! We know he's played with Grendel before and stated a belief that Grendel was town (not one that I necessarily share, but we're exploring mindset and intent here). There is a plausible line of play where town Gamma reads my post about Grendel's methods, assumes I'm running a discredit line, and reflex votes. Built into that is his prejudice to be friendly (and assume Town) for Grendel since they're from the same forum and he stated a town read on Grendel, and to be unfriendly to me (since we argued earlier), but those prejudices make sense based on how the thread has gone so far.

Basically what I am saying here is that his vote on me is a textbook case of a not alignment indicating behavior, since there are similarly plausible play patterns for either alignment to have taken the actions observed.

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Post Post #342  (ISO)  » Fri Oct 07, 2016 12:19 am

In post 302, Grendel wrote:Oh and, I'm about to get really busy on something, and won't be on tonight.

See you all tomorrow... evening?


Putting the answers to the random questions completely aside, can you point to why Penguin is scum, based on things he's posted in game?

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Post Post #343  (ISO)  » Fri Oct 07, 2016 2:36 am

In post 329, boring wrote:Gamma is acting exactly like he did in our last game. I tunnelled him for it because he's easy to mislynch. I'm also doubting my scum read on Zoronos. He's just barrelled on without a single adjustment to his behavior. It's not something I'd expect from someone I'm scum-reading for being fake. They're each either cleverer at playing scum than I'm willing to entertain at the moment, or they're not scum.

UNVOTE:


Join me on Penguin please.

He nicely ignored my question.
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Post Post #344  (ISO)  » Fri Oct 07, 2016 2:43 am

In post 336, Gamma Emerald wrote:
In post 335, PenguinPower wrote:
In post 332, Gamma Emerald wrote:Yeah implosion is town.


So:

Won't read LUV = scum > Will read LUV later = leantown > Still hasn't read/posted about, but post stuff about PP = town.

Dude...seriously.

I'm actually done with LUV for now.

VOTE: Gamma

The fact that so many people townread me and yet he doesn't makes him Town.


This is a fallacy, scum will try to get people who are town read by the majority --> lynched
Especially PP's reply to your comment is terrible. He scum reads you and is okay with you town reading him. He doesn't accuse you or buddying.
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Post Post #345  (ISO)  » Fri Oct 07, 2016 7:01 am

In post 344, Shadow_step wrote:Especially PP's reply to your comment is terrible. He scum reads you and is okay with you town reading him. He doesn't accuse you or buddying.


That's a misrep. I'm neither ok or not ok with him town reading me. I wanted to show the lack of logic in his comment in a smartass way.

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Post Post #346  (ISO)  » Fri Oct 07, 2016 7:01 am

In post 343, Shadow_step wrote:He nicely ignored my question.


What question?

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Post Post #347  (ISO)  » Fri Oct 07, 2016 7:28 am

In post 263, Shadow_step wrote:
In post 174, PenguinPower wrote:
In post 168, Shadow_step wrote:So, do you believe eagersnake?


Have no reason not to at this point. How about you?

In post 168, Shadow_step wrote:What is your current read on him?


Null. Yours?


This is a very safe stance
How can you believe him and not town read him even if slightly ?

Like mafia ascetic is very strong modifier for mafia, unless you believe that town would have those many PRs to counter that.
Hence you null read him. But I doubt you would have thought that much.
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Post Post #348  (ISO)  » Fri Oct 07, 2016 7:35 am

That? Put him as null town then. He's playing like he did in my last game with him where town swept scum, but that was my only experience with him. I normally would straight up town read him, but his play style makes me wary so I'm going to keep him in my null bucket until I can suss him out better.

boring
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Post Post #349  (ISO)  » Fri Oct 07, 2016 8:26 am

In post 343, Shadow_step wrote:
In post 329, boring wrote:Gamma is acting exactly like he did in our last game. I tunnelled him for it because he's easy to mislynch. I'm also doubting my scum read on Zoronos. He's just barrelled on without a single adjustment to his behavior. It's not something I'd expect from someone I'm scum-reading for being fake. They're each either cleverer at playing scum than I'm willing to entertain at the moment, or they're not scum.

UNVOTE:


Join me on Penguin please.

He nicely ignored my question.

I don't think your question was terribly interrogative, so that's not a super good reason. The vote on gamma makes no sense though.

@Gamma, I don't think you're too widely town read, so it's not like PP's going against the flow. It seems more like he's testing it.

VOTE: PenguinPower

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