Mini Normal #1838 - Game Over

[Gamma Emerald]

Nice page top nab. Too bad I stole it.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Not Voting (5): Zoronos, Slandaar, Lil Uzi Vert, Grendel, MariaR

You guys should be voting someone... you can't say you find nothing suspicious so far

Why?

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Zoronos, Slandaar, Lil Uzi Vert, Grendel, MariaR

Who do you think is suspicious and why (2 points)

Take a guess.

[Zoronos]

@Zoro - what are your thoughts on my 542?

I have mentioned this a couple times, but I am leaning town on Gamma.
I don't find the base act of inconsistency to be scummy. If his reasoning doesn't match his conclusion, that's scummy. If he's calling someone scum for things that aren't alignment indicating, that's scummy. But just changing his mind? not indicating, imo. I find that scum try a lot harder than town to be 'consistent' in their reads, whereas town just post whatever is on the top of their heads at the moment they thing it so just reversing course tells me little.

I also don't find 'outing' or declaring a town read to be scummy, *assuming that town read is supported by reasoning*. There's nothing wrong with bucketing a player into 'I don't want to lynch this slot'. I also put basically no stock in meta soo.....

I think his read on SS is wrong, so my question to Gamma here is "Why the heck is SS town?!?".
But basically I'm not super convinced by 542.

[Zoronos]

Zoronos what are your thoughts on:

MariaR
Grendel
boring

I believe that Grendel is town, and have said that a couple times now. I think most of his questions are bad and his lines of inquiry (prior to today. I really haven't taken the time yet to process the stuff that has happened today) betray a lack of knowledge about what behaviors are actually scummy. His beliefs, whoever wrong or poorly guided, seems sincerely held however. He's trying to solve the game, or at least giving a damn good impression that he's trying to do so. That says townish to me.
One thing that stands out to me is that he seems to think calling something wrong and calling something scummy are one and the same. Which is not true, but it is an indication that he very much wants to be taken seriously and have his views respected.

I threw together a bit of a reads list in 393 and my reads on Boring and Maria haven't really changed since that point. I find both have been content light, exempting Boring's last reads list which I haven't really internalized yet. Some of it I disagree with, some of it I agree with (I'll come back to this in a bit).

Maria explicitly mentioned that she doesn't want to share in the 405 through 408 sequence, and I really just don't know how to play through that. It's so off the wall I don't find myself able to shake my head and call it scummy. It just is so orthogonal to the way I analyze the game I don't know how to engage her. So, basically, bucket of ????.

Boring is in the ???? bucket as well. I really don't understand her 'strong town' reading on Shadow_Step. He's at the top of her town list and it makes no sense to me. She cites aggresiveness and grandiosity as town tells, and the former I don't find a town tell unless backed by reasoning and consensus building, and the later I don't think I see in ShadowStep's posting. I agree with her Implosion read at the time she made it, for basically the reason she listed in her list, so I'm wondering if I don't have that read wrong.
Basically, I feel like she's coasting in the middle of the pack, and that itself puts me on edge. I am not seeing effort to get out front and lead a case or do real deep scum hunting. But some of her opinions and thoughts are quite solid, so I am conflicted on her to sort her.

The dichotomy between Boring and Maria here is interesting; Maria is hard to sort because she is content light (apparently purposefully), and Boring is hard to sort because some of her content makes me go "Yup, that's scummy def" and some is "Well, that is pretty darn reasonable".

[Zoronos]

Zoronos, Slandaar, Lil Uzi Vert, Grendel, MariaR

Who do you think is suspicious and why (2 points)

I am catching back up, but here is what I had on Friday: 393[/[pst].
Dierfire's response to questioning his moved him towards the scummier side of my ???? bucket. I think his case on PP was hung on non alignment indicating behaviors; check [post]523 for reasoning.
Prism I am holding in abeyance until he catches up and am trying to ignore that his main read is that I am town, so as not to bias my judgement.

Implosion was in my scum pile in that list, but I find myself agreeing with a lot of the things he wrote in 562, specifically his thinking on PP and Boring. I disagree with what he wrote in 565; see below for commentary on 399, and I don't find sarcasm to be towny or scummy, so citing it for town points is out of step. I also maintain that his read on gamma is wrong. So, Implosion is moving in the right (townier) direction, but there are still some unresolved ???? there. At the very least, I find some of his reads questioning or not in agreement with my own.

I am still happy with leaving Shadow_step in my scum list for the moment. I don't feel like he's driving the game in a productive direction. I especially don't like 399; that seems to me like he's building a hedge into a town read in case he needs to turn it around later. Same in 397.

See my post above this one for commentary on Boring. That's a slot which my gut dislikes but I haven't gotten enough real data on to make a decision via logic.

I'm going to sleep, so let me know if you want me to expound on any of this and I can do so when it's not 6am.

[eagerSnake]

Not Voting (5): Zoronos, Slandaar, Lil Uzi Vert, Grendel, MariaR

You guys should be voting someone... you can't say you find nothing suspicious so far

Why?

Because only scum find no-one suspicious

Seriously, vote.

[eagerSnake]

The dichotomy between Boring and Maria here is interesting; Maria is hard to sort because she is content light (apparently purposefully), and Boring is hard to sort because some of her content makes me go "Yup, that's scummy def" and some is "Well, that is pretty darn reasonable".

Throw Grendel in there and lol

[Shadow_step]

Because only scum find no-one suspicious

Seriously, vote.

okay

VOTE: eager

[eagerSnake]

[PenguinPower]

Zoronos, Slandaar, Lil Uzi Vert, Grendel, MariaR

Who do you think is suspicious and why (2 points)

Take a guess.

Why don't you tell us.

[Gamma Emerald]

Wtf is this.

[eagerSnake]

My response to shadow_step voting me

[Gamma Emerald]

Can you say what it means though? I have an idea but I'd like clarification.

[Zoronos]

Throw Grendel in there and lol

Eh, Grendel I feel like I understand. I think his posting is towny; he appears to be making an earnest attempt to solve the game. I think his methods are ineffective and it's taking him to conclusions I don't agree with, but that's not the same as scummy or content light.

(Is 'lol' supposed to be LUV there, or am I just misreading your post entirely?)

[eagerSnake]

That his vote is not worth serious notice

[Prism]

Hey everybody, I'm finally caught up. Heads up that I'm really bad at reading things I wasn't here for due to sheer volume (more specifically, keeping up with connections between posts) so expect me to be more reactive/thorough to future occasions than I will be here looking into the past.

Rereading I really don't like LUV as much as I thought. I liked the reaction to the wagon, it was very daring, but the post afterwards, #246, reads more as trying to stir off future trouble before it happens. It's a post for volume than substance, more chin scratching than investigation. I realize he said it was a reread post but something that for the most part is a summary doesn't really help. I also really don't like his passing on me even after I posted.

Elaborating more on my boring scumread and Zoronos townread, boring's #196 more sold me on thinking Zoronos was town than anything else. Having an inconsistent mind isn't a hallmark of being scum-being deceptive is. Saying that "I think talking about yourself is a scumtell" then doing it anyway shows less concern for appearance. And what on earth is that reasoning on the implosion read? I agree with it but that's not it at all.

Implosion is on the downhill ever since the wagon on him derailed. I agree completely that PP reacted really well to the wagon, for now I'm taking everyone else's word about him not doing this as scum but I'm doing a more thorough review later. On the other hand his read on Shadow is complete yuck and considering the thought that goes into most things I'm finding it hard to believe that this is the read getting the stamp of approval. I really don't like the noncommittal read on Maria in #562 or the halfhearted opinion fishing on boring in #563. #565's opinion on Gamma looks to me like either distancing from the wagon before it flips or fishing for a future derailment more than a real reconsideration.

I don't really have too many thoughts on Gamma himself, I feel like I need a better understanding of his meta. My initial readthrough was leaning town but after reading nn30's posts and ISOing Gamma I've waffled on that. I don't trust Implosion as far as I can throw him.

VOTE: Implosion

@Mod: Just a note that I voted boring back in #488 and that Slandaar is still in the vote count

[Prism]

If your still on rn I'd like to hear some more of you thoughts up to page 12.

I don't think my interpretations changed much except on LUV/Gamma.

To round out where I am right now, I think MariaR's approach to playing and think it is a major hindrance. I don't townread her, or trust those of others, especially not ones based on gut or tone, as it's obvious she's tailored her play to center around them. Until we either get flips from people she's voted or I get to compare other games more indepth I'm not trusting her anymore than I do implosion. Eager excels at being hard null. Everyone else I haven't really gotten around to.

[podoboq]

@Mod: Just a note that I voted boring back in #488 and that Slandaar is still in the vote count

In the future, please put votes at the beginning of the line. They're easier for me to find that way.

[podoboq]

Official Vote Count 1.14

Lynching

With 13 votes in play, it takes 7 to lynch.

Gamma Emerald (3): implosion, PenguinPower, nn30
PenguinPower (2): boring, Dierfire
boring (1): eagerSnake
DierFire (1): Gamma Emerald
eagerSnake (1): Shadow_step
implosion (1): Prism

Not Voting (4): Zoronos, Lil Uzi Vert, Grendel, MariaR

V/LA: Gamma Emerald

Deadline: (expired on 2016-10-18 15:22:00)

[Dierfire]

I'm hearing what other players are saying about PenguinPower, and I'm willing to consider that I'm wrong about his tone. However, I reviewed the game linked by implosion and I don't find it inconsistent with the way that PenguinPower is playing in this one. Among other things, I note that in this game Grendel had attracted substantial negative reactions from other players with regard to the RQS opening (which makes it relatively safe for PenguinPower to push the line "bad Town or Mafia" here). In that game, PenguinPower attracted suspicion mainly from implosion, who gave clear and detailed reasoning that was received well by other players (at one point two players followed implosion without adding much to the case, implying that implosion had some standing--it is also notable that PenguinPower characterized implosion as "manipulative" in that game).

I also think that this point still stands (I'm adding that the case in 312 pulls mostly from material before 240):

I definitely don't like the interaction between Gamma Emerald and PenguinPower finishing in 149. PenguinPower makes a great show of pointing out a seeming contradiction in the way that Gamma Emerald is treating Lil Uzi Vert and implosion, but then votes for Lil Uzi Vert (later clarifying in 240 that this was a result of Lil Uzi Vert not answering RQS and not contributing, which to me both seem like weaker reasons than what PenguinPower gave against Gamma Emerald). Of course, this makes the eventual move to Gamma Emerald in 335 seem forced or rushed (particularly given the hesitance in 320 and 309).

---
@Zoronos

I also think your commentary in 515 is off base. It's NAI (in my opinion) for him to note it. He responded to Grendel (in a frustrated fashion), posted about an AFK, and then went right back to talking to Grendel. It wasn't some epic deflection.

I don't recall characterizing it as epic, but I still think that it reads as a deflection, not from talking to Grendel (who is Town as of 242) but from talking about other players voting for him. In other words, I think that PenguinPower "noticing" an AFK player at that moment is the sort of thing that is less likely to come from a player trying to read alignments and more likely from a player looking for something to say.

---
Since I still think that the way that Gamma Emerald approaches PenguinPower looks like a Mafia partner (refresher below), I'm willing to move my vote if there is significant resistance on PenguinPower.

Spoiler: Refresher

Gamma Emerald starts by objecting to the speed of the wagon on PenguinPower:

L-1 in 3 days. Nice quickwagon.

to fast a wagon for someone not very scummy nope not doing it

My specific problem is the fact we were already on intent to hammer with Maria having intent.

However, shortly afterward Gamma Emerald feels the need to join the wagon (and seemed to suggest that he was only waiting for a VC to do so earlier, which makes the comment about the wagon speed strange):

You trying to call his methodology bad. Also, as Grendel mentioned, you've seemed to be trying to remain in popular opinion.
Now that we have a VC:
VOTE: PenguinPower
And I didn't say you were town, that statement before was sarcastic. I had already been townleaning Implosion. Not the same case with you.

You only did RQS after others had done it, after complaining about it.

It is also worth noting that PenguinPower answered Grendel's questions in 136, so my interpretation is that Gamma Emerald went looking for an excuse to vote for PenguinPower.

Later, the read appears to solidify:

And boring just helped me explain part of my scum read on PP. He feels flippant in a scummy way.

Any doubts I had about PP just vanished.

Shortly thereafter, however, the story is again that Gamma Emerald only didn't care for the speed of the wagon (contradicts the "I was only waiting for a VC to join" sentiment above), and the idea that PenguinPower is flippant in a suspicious way has gone:

I wasn't against it, just against the fact he was run up so fast.
I'm actually rethinking my scumread on PP because of that wagon looking back.
UNVOTE:

This is also immediately after he noticed that I was suspicious that he and PenguinPower were both Mafia (495).

From there, Gamma Emerald shifts from finding PenguinPower suspicious to looking for Mafia on his wagon:

I'm feeling like the most likely person to be scum on PP's wagon was Dierfire.

Finally, Gamma Emerald decides that PenguinPower was not actually suspicious to begin with (until the time that I flip Town):

My read changed after my review of PP's wagon. I didn't find his vote particularly scummy.
As for Dierfire, I think he is the most likely scum on PP's wagon. His grouping of me and PP feels like throwing shade on us. This makes me think PP is town. If Dier flips town I'll reconsider my PP read.

It's also noteworthy here that my reasons for reading Gamma Emerald and PenguinPower are not addressed (just "throwing shade" and that's it).

[Dierfire]

@Prism
Could you explain in more detail why a noncommittal read on MariaR is suspicious to you, and why the opinion of boring given in 563 is suspicious? The former is reasonable to me given that MariaR hasn't been a central figure in this game so far, and the latter seems consistent with the reasoning in 562.

[Gamma Emerald]

Willing to move your vote if there is significant resistance
Hi, willing to please scum!

[boring]

@Shadow_step - Are you scumreading eager, or was that just a statement of suspicion?
@Deirfire - I just read that whole post, and I can't tell if you're justifying your vote on PP, or moving away from it. Can you give us a thesis statement?
@Prism - I never considered that perspective on MariaR. Do you think she's likely scum, or are you just throwing it out there?

[Prism]

@Prism
Could you explain in more detail why a noncommittal read on MariaR is suspicious to you, and why the opinion of boring given in 563 is suspicious? The former is reasonable to me given that MariaR hasn't been a central figure in this game so far, and the latter seems consistent with the reasoning in 562.

Two sections, in general and on implosion.

In general I think noncommittal reads are more likely to come from scum. They're a good multitool-they're reads so nobody can complain about you not giving content, they're easy to justify ("I like X and it makes me lean town on them") or shrug off entirely, they're easy to go back on ("After thinking about X I guess it's not that big of a deal, on the other hand Y really makes me lean scum") in future days, and they serve as additional justification for narrowing your choice of votes.

Rationality and consistency aren't reliable town indicators. They're reliable competence indicators. You can probably come up with a reasonable, consistent explanation to scumread anyone here. Does that make them your real reads?

On Implosion, I really should have linked Implosion's #562 over his #563 as better illustrating my point. It's entirely possible he has a read with weak reasoning as he states and wants other opinions. On the other hand, that isn't necessarily true, and his other posts make me think it isn't. I'm not buying what he's selling on Shadow and I'm not buying the paragraph of "tempted to scumread boring but I just don't know" while making sure to keep pushing Gamma.

One point on boring in his #562 is the following:

It also feels like the reads themselves make a lot of sense from scum; the top several players are all my more confident townreads, so it's consistent with my view of the game that she'd have sprinkled her scumbuddies near the middle.

Presumably, boring's reads make a lot of sense as town considering they're implosion's reads too. Yet, that isn't the implication here.

@Prism - I never considered that perspective on MariaR. Do you think she's likely scum, or are you just throwing it out there?

Throwing it out there, I wouldn't call it a hindrance if it made her easier to scumread.