Mini Normal #1838 - Game Over

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Post Post #2944  (isolation #400)  » Tue Nov 15, 2016 8:44 pm

Ahh, got it.

If you drew scum:

1) There's no reason to believe you didn't tweak them
1.5) The fact that your read on Shadow_Step is the first to appear in your list could be coincidence, but could also indicate that you tweaked this read in particular (pure speculation here - I know that I'm getting into tin-foil hat territory here)
2) You don't even need to tweak them to get town cred by posting it
3) You saying 'don't town read me for this... but...' is just reverse psychology. Maybe you actually wanted to be town read for it?
4) This is a deception game - there's no reason to believe with 100% certainty that those notes were made entirely before subbing in.

Let me be clear here. While I'm responding to your line of questioning, these things aren't what I take issue with.

I need to choose to believe this explanation:

In post 2941, BlackVoid wrote:Just me being transparent that they shouldn't be a reason to read me as town.


For this line of thought:

In post 2921, BlackVoid wrote:Sure, I can post the stream-of-consciousness notes I took in excel. Not sure how helpful it'll be to read me since I did them all before receiving my role PM but it'll help you see my reasoning.


Which I don't currently buy.


I'd also like to put this line of thought forward. It's more for the rest of town than for BlackVoid specifically. My scum reading Shadow_Step is absolutely not a path of least resistance position. I'm resisting the notion that the D1 gambit made by Shadow_Step absolutely could not have come from scum. The goal of such a high-risk high-reward play is to gain enough town cred to become conf!town, which Shadow step continually insisted he was despite other players not being in consensus on this. If I were scum, I would have had a much easier time pushing other people (Prism, for example).

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Post Post #2947  (isolation #401)  » Tue Nov 15, 2016 10:06 pm

@Boring - technically speaking, BlackVoid hasn't cast a vote for you yet.

That said I'm continuing to talk to him because I sense town moving towards a combination of Boring/Dier lynches. I'm not sure which of you is scum, but I know that if there isn't at least 1 scum among the two of you the game is basically over for town anyways.

I'm talking to BlackVoid under the assumption that Town keeps on trucking after the Dier/Boring lynches. If the scum team isn't you and Dier, I think it's one of you two and then BlackVoid. Hence my conversation.

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Post Post #2949  (isolation #402)  » Tue Nov 15, 2016 10:42 pm

In post 2948, Prism wrote:
In post 2946, boring wrote:He could very well have made a couple easy tweaks to his "stream of consciousness". Regardless, how long would it take to type something like that up? 5 minutes, if you have an excuse not to edit. There's nothing original in there, either. His every post thus far is middle-of-the-road designed to appease our lovely conf. town.
You're right in the sense that I undersold the chance of him making one or two tweaks-that doesn't take too much time. The whole thing, however, definitely wasn't made in 30 minutes. It cites specific posts and you can clearly see the trains of thought in motion for them.


Keep in mind he made the majority of those reads before he got a role pm.


Also, I want your opinion on my theoretical world where Boring/Dier are the next two to go. Who's do we lynch assuming the game doesn't end right then and there?

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Post Post #2954  (isolation #403)  » Tue Nov 15, 2016 11:43 pm

Dier - in our hypothetical suicide pact with you and boring, who's the last scum? Who do you advocate we lynch?

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Post Post #2964  (isolation #404)  » Wed Nov 16, 2016 10:08 am

@Podoboq

Where's the miscount?

Including Boring's vote, she has four. That's lynch.

What am I missing?

UNVOTE: Boring

Assuming there was a miscount, I don't want her hammered before Zoro can declare his intention for his night action.

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Post Post #2968  (isolation #405)  » Wed Nov 16, 2016 10:26 am

OH Implosion unvoted. That was hard to see. Okay, cool.

Boring's self-vote virtually guarantees her to be scum now... Her 'I was reaction fishing' retroactive explanation is awful. She was obviously trying to deny Zoronos the opportunity to declare his night action intentions. If Boring is scum, I see virtually no more reason to believe Zoronos is suspect. Sorting his slot has been nagging at me all D3 and it will (likely) be put to rest here and now.

Dierfire's recent posts indicate a level of input into attempting to solve the game that he now reads towny to me. If we catch scum in Boring, I think we can afford to start tomorrow with BlackVoid. If we're wrong about BlackVoid we can discuss and potentially circle back to Dierfire (but I think it's unlikely I'm wrong about BlackVoid).

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Post Post #2969  (isolation #406)  » Wed Nov 16, 2016 10:27 am

In post 2960, Zoronos wrote:In approximately that order of likelyhood, from most to least. But all those strike me as fundamentally off. I'm trying to decide if I rate (b) as more likely than (a), and if so, does that leave boring town with a NN+DF scum team.


Would you agree that if Boring flips scum, my chances of being scum go way down (given that you jailed me last night and a kill still occurred)?

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Post Post #2973  (isolation #407)  » Wed Nov 16, 2016 11:09 am

In post 2970, BlackVoid wrote:Uh no, I highly doubt scum don't have a roleblocker.

I think everyone's agreed that the remaining scum has to be between nn30, Dierfire, and me. We have two chances to get it right. We shall see how it pans out.


Explain this, please. This is my first normal. How can we be certain that a role blocker exists? I basically tuned out of the night action / power role discussion because your predecessor was so difficult to talk to.

Some thoughts on the topic. Let's pretend scum 100% have a role blocker. Are cops still more important to NK than Zoronos? Theoretically, when Penguin claimed deputy scum could have chosen to role block him and kill Zoro. This play comes with the possibility of town not believing that Penguin didn't get a result and securing a mislynch in this way. It also comes with the chance of Penguin stating who he investigated, saying he got no result, and scum throwing shade at that person 'for not claiming ascetic' earlier (ala Lynch all Liars).

By no means does this line of thought discount the possibility of scum having a role blocker, but it is a wrinkle to consider.

In post 2971, BlackVoid wrote:NN30 being so easily convinced that Boring was scum after I posted reasons seemed pretty suspicious actually. He was apparently townreading her for bussing, but then as soon as I make the argument, he's suddenly all for it, then pushes me and Boring as a team which is a weird progression. I think he's pushing me simply because he knows Boring is likely dead and Dierfire is pretty much a guaranteed mislynch, and I'll vote him in 3-way lylo.


While you do make a point that I'm too easy to convince, that is more a matter of my scum reads being so bad this game. My reads in early days consisted of Gamma, Implosion, and Boring (who now looks scummy btw). I also chose Grendel over Boring/Dierfire yesterday which in hindsight was a mistake.

I'm easily convinced because 1) my reads are not set in stone and 2) I'm unsure of my scum hunting game.

Last thing - take a look at my 2968. I'm actually advocating for someone other than Dierfire tomorrow. This point should refute what you've just said about my play regarding him since I no longer want his lynch.

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Post Post #2974  (isolation #408)  » Wed Nov 16, 2016 11:13 am

@BlackVoid - I'm excited to hear what your meta dive reveals.

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Post Post #2977  (isolation #409)  » Wed Nov 16, 2016 11:28 am

In post 2970, BlackVoid wrote:Uh no, I highly doubt scum don't have a roleblocker.

I think everyone's agreed that the remaining scum has to be between nn30, Dierfire, and me. We have two chances to get it right. We shall see how it pans out.

@BlackVoid - I have some responses. However I want to hold them until you've looked at my scum game.

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Post Post #2979  (isolation #410)  » Wed Nov 16, 2016 12:29 pm

@Zoronos - thank you for all that input. Based on this logic, I can see why a kill happening last night does not remove me from suspicion entirely.

I have to make a probabilistic argument here, however.

You jailed me. In order for me to be scum, either my partner had to make the kill or we role blocked you (or both, I suppose).

By jailing me, you've added more conditions which have to be satisfied in order for me to be scum. In probabilistic terms, this has to move the needle at least a little towards my being town.

Keep being suspicious of me if you need to. But do so after taking this argument into account.

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Post Post #2981  (isolation #411)  » Wed Nov 16, 2016 1:06 pm

I'm not saying 'the mod would never..." In fact, I've very intentionally avoided that statement.

I see what you're saying - I, as scum, could be using my hidden knowledge to manipulate you.

It is a possibility.

But I could also be town trying to make the most logical argument I can based on the limited information I have.

I'm not saying the needle should necessarily move much. I'm just saying it should move SOME. Like 5%?

Let's change the subject - we're obviously spinning our wheels here.

@Zoro - I believe I haven't asked you this. In my hypothetical world where Boring/Dier are next, who do you advocate for next?

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Post Post #2982  (isolation #412)  » Wed Nov 16, 2016 1:14 pm

Wait a minute.

Zoro is online lol.

VOTE: Boring

Can we get your night action intentions and lynch already? Lol.

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Post Post #2984  (isolation #413)  » Wed Nov 16, 2016 2:06 pm

There's nothing that says you could change that feeling tomorrow after Boring's flip.

I just want the fullest picture of everyone's current feelings I can get. You must have some inkling other than 'idk man.'

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Post Post #2985  (isolation #414)  » Wed Nov 16, 2016 2:06 pm

Hell, I'd even accept you saying it was me. I wouldn't be surprised by that even.

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Post Post #2988  (isolation #415)  » Wed Nov 16, 2016 2:16 pm

Unwilling to play ball.

*noted*

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Post Post #2990  (isolation #416)  » Wed Nov 16, 2016 2:24 pm

The question was never hard.

In a hypothetical world, where the great and powerful Zoronos is wrong about his reads, who do we lynch after Boring and Dier?

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Post Post #2992  (isolation #417)  » Wed Nov 16, 2016 2:33 pm

In case I die tonight, my top scum after Boring is actually Zoro.

Since D2 started Zoro has basically been unwilling/unable to put forth his own effort to solve the game. The last thing he did was decide on Grendel and stick with that all D2.

I don't think he had much original to say about Dierfire being scum - rather, he just let us morph his '???' to 'scum-read' for him.

I understand that Zoro is an un-countered PR. That said his jailings have targeted town (who are now dead) or myself. From my POV I know for a fact that he's only targeted town with his jailings.

I know he's an uncounted power role. That said, there's absolutely no guarantee that there's a jailkeeper in this game. All we know for a fact is that LUV flipped goon, we had a deputy, an ascetic, and a cop.

Just between the two investigative roles town has a lot of power. What level of power on the remaining 2 scum would counterbalance a cop, deputy, AND a jailkeeper? I'm not sure - but I'm inclined to think Zoro is lying about his PR.

The conversation I've had with him right now feels a lot like he doesn't want to get painted into a corner by answering my question and would prefer to keep his options open.

@Zoro - let's flip Boring already. That lynch is all but guaranteed anyways. We can revisit this tomorrow.

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Post Post #2993  (isolation #418)  » Wed Nov 16, 2016 2:36 pm

I'm also dialing back my scummy feelings towards BlackVoid. His behavior today has been 100% reasonable and gave me all kinds of reasons to think he's town.

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Post Post #2994  (isolation #419)  » Wed Nov 16, 2016 2:37 pm

Hell, if BlackVoid is actually a town ascetic as I'm arguing my Zoro theory makes even more sense.

Scum don't need much power to counter a cop/deputy combo. Town already has two roles negative roles.

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Post Post #2995  (isolation #420)  » Wed Nov 16, 2016 2:40 pm

I also think that Boring/Dier being the scum team isn't super likely. Neither of them made any effort to try to move the conversation away from the two of them being the next lynches. There was absolutely no flail. If we find scum in Boring I don't want to think about Dier.

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Post Post #2996  (isolation #421)  » Wed Nov 16, 2016 3:04 pm

More stuff on Zoro.

Do your own digging too. I found this stuff after deciding I thought he and Boring were the team. Grains of salt, conf bias, yadayada.


Spoiler:
Here Zoro pushes me away from a Boring lynch and in favor of a Grendel Lynch.

In post 2424, Zoronos wrote:So, something was bugging me earlier, and I want to go back to it quick.

In post 2366, nn30 wrote:If your theory is correct, this could be Boring teeing up my mislynch after Grendel flips red.


NN - If you believe this, it predicates on Grendel actually being red.
If you believe Grendel is red, and boring is using a red flip to try and mislynch you, then *Grendel is still red and should get lynched for being red*.

Here, have a 'Zor thinks you're not busing Grendel probably' certificate. You can use it to convince someone that I don't think you're busing and we shouldn't lynch you for it.

(I want to be clear; I'm not saying I think NN's scum. I don't. It's just a common mistake; going second intention when we can go direct)


Spoiler:
D1 - he states '????' but actually lists a lot of reasons to scum read her. Classic FoS from scum.

In post 579, Zoronos wrote:Boring is in the ???? bucket as well. I really don't understand her 'strong town' reading on Shadow_Step. He's at the top of her town list and it makes no sense to me. She cites aggresiveness and grandiosity as town tells, and the former I don't find a town tell unless backed by reasoning and consensus building, and the later I don't think I see in ShadowStep's posting. I agree with her Implosion read at the time she made it, for basically the reason she listed in her list, so I'm wondering if I don't have that read wrong.
Basically, I feel like she's coasting in the middle of the pack, and that itself puts me on edge. I am not seeing effort to get out front and lead a case or do real deep scum hunting. But some of her opinions and thoughts are quite solid, so I am conflicted on her to sort her.


Spoiler:
He was also absent from all wagons on D1. After this was pointed out, he stated that he takes a long time with deciding his votes. Then he behaves totally different than he did D1 and starts joining wagons.


Spoiler:
First quote: yeah, she's kinda scummy but I don't wanna hammer yet, let's see what she says.

Inbetween the two quotes I've provided, Boring responds to her case.

Second quote: I find you scummy for all of these reasons, but I'm still not sure ya know am I right town?.

More FoS.

In post 1078, Zoronos wrote:
In post 476, boring wrote:Shadow_step - Has an aggressive town persona. A hint of grandiosity. I haven't seen this behavior before with scum.
eagerSnake - He's got a most-likely-town claim. If he's still alive tomorrow, he'll probably be bumped way down because he's pretty useless


These were Boring's top two town reads at one point. She flipped on her second top town read as soon as her first CC'ed him on a modifier, without further investigation. I find that questionable.
I am further surprised that not a single person brought up that she was willing to trash her town reads that quickly. But w/e.

Anyway, I want to hear what Boring has to say once she comes back; my gut wants her to be scum (hello conf-bias) but I can't justify just throwing down the hammer without giving her a chance to say her piece.


In post 1181, Zoronos wrote:@boring
Anyway, here's my take on your play so far:
You've been in the middle of two trains - PP and Eager. Never the head of either - the player leading the charge for the lynch. While you were on PP, you didn't talk about him much at all or advocate for that train to move forwards. You mostly seemed to be talking to Grendel. (I kind of liked your evaluation of Grendel's conciliatory post to Gamma, actually ).
However that suspicion also never seemed to get pushed based the suspicion phase.

At the time of the CC, you had Eager as your number 2 town read, after SS at number one. That suggests, to me, that you didn't have a lot of skepticism about his claim. Furthermore, I find "He survived the night, he must be scum" to be a really awful way to evaluate PR's (since it depends on the playstyle of the scum team on whether they are risk averse or not, which is hidden information). It makes it really easy for scum to try to lynch PR's by building up mistrust.

So, when you immediately flipped on him as soon as the CC happens, that seems scummy to me. You didn't take the time to re-evaluate the read or look for other indications on whether he was scummy. Just 'Oh counterclaim yup top scum' and a vote. There wasn't evidence of skepticism or evaluation. If someone counterclaims one of my top town reads, I am always going to try and think carefully about why my town read might have been wrong, or if something else is afoot.

So, I don't think you've done a lot of active scum hunting, haven't been an evangelist for the trains you've been on, and I question your sudden certainty on Eager-scum. Those things add up to my gut thinking you're playing a happy coincidence of two town having the same role modifier, and you get a free mislynch.
However, the logical case hasn't caught up to my gut and I am wary of just interpreting events into conf-bias land. So I'm not entirely convinced that you're the villain quite yet - at least not until we've had a chance to chat a bit more.


Spoiler:
On D2 he had this to say about Boring.

It reads like 1) more FoS and 2) reaaaaaaaly wonky considering he didn't actually 'inquisit' Boring any further for the rest of the day.

[quote="In post 1592, Zoronos"
Boring - Her posting was mostly defensive, we went over this in detail yesterday about why he read flipped. She didn't seem to do any work to suss out which of Eager and SS were the correct lynch, she just followed her top read SS to turn on her second to top read. I was in the middle of inquisiting this a bit when the hammer came down, but there we are.
[/quote]

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Post Post #2997  (isolation #422)  » Wed Nov 16, 2016 3:05 pm

40 minutes later - no response from Zoro.

Talking to Boring in day chat and coming up with a plan are we?

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Post Post #2998  (isolation #423)  » Wed Nov 16, 2016 3:07 pm

Funny timing on him no longer replying too. Pretty snappy conversation up until I accused him of being scum.

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Post Post #3002  (isolation #424)  » Wed Nov 16, 2016 3:23 pm

Speak of the devil, he's back! And he simultaneously seeks to appease me by answering my question while also discrediting my position with ad hominem arguments!

Wowy zowy!

---------------

My path forward is fairly clear. Today Boring, tomorrow Zoro.

If Boring flips vanilla scum, there is absolutely-no-way-in-hell that Zoronos is jailkeeper. That means that exactly 1 scum member has enough power to counter 3 power roles. I've never been on any mod committee but I imagine that'd never fly.

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Post Post #3003  (isolation #425)  » Wed Nov 16, 2016 3:27 pm

Actually, I incorrectly invoked ad hominem arguments.

Still - he tried to discredit me without actually engaging with anything I've said or done. He just wants to hand-wave them away as nonsense.

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Post Post #3005  (isolation #426)  » Wed Nov 16, 2016 3:43 pm

What, exactly, is desperate about this?

Why, as scum, would I stick my neck out in this way? Zoro is one of the most town read players in this game.

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Post Post #3006  (isolation #427)  » Wed Nov 16, 2016 3:44 pm

@Boring - please meta dive me. I think you'll find my styles between this and my completed scum game to be wildly different. What you decide that means is up to you.

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Post Post #3010  (isolation #428)  » Wed Nov 16, 2016 3:54 pm

Nah. The point of a meta dive is to come to your own conclusions. I can't force that on anyone.

I still want your flip today Boring.

What'd you get out of your 'reaction test' from earlier by the way? Interesting that you explained it that way but never actually followed up.

*shrug*

I also want Implosion's take on everything that's just happened.

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Post Post #3011  (isolation #429)  » Wed Nov 16, 2016 3:55 pm

Do I really have to point this out?

A prism/nn scum team is super unlikely because we've been town reading each other basically all game. That's about as deviant from the norm for scum play as it gets.

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Post Post #3012  (isolation #430)  » Wed Nov 16, 2016 3:58 pm

retract 3011 - Boring already back tracked from that idea.

I still don't think an nn/dierfire scum team makes sense. I was the first one to make a scum case on him. Before that he was just a big '???' for everyone.

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Post Post #3013  (isolation #431)  » Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:04 pm

This reaction has made me pause to think.

Boring as scum - hard buddying a (scum) Zoro means it's reverse psychology.
Boring as town - this is a genuine response.

Hey Boring if you're town and you think Zoro is town, give me some setup theory to back this up.

Right now if Zoro is really town jailkeeper I see 3 power roles on town's side and 2 scum roles left to counter-balance that. With a town ascetic, this is certainly plausible. This also fits with the paradigm of Shadow_Step/BlackVoid being town ascetic as it lessens the power that scum need a little further. This also means that the scum team is Prism/Dier. I'm struggling to find that likely since I town read Prism so hard.

Yeah your turn now. Convince me town Boring.

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Post Post #3015  (isolation #432)  » Wed Nov 16, 2016 5:10 pm

Well I've gotta say, I'm convinced now.

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Post Post #3017  (isolation #433)  » Wed Nov 16, 2016 5:23 pm

The wiki is lacking in this area. I couldn't find anything that talks about setup balance.

Somebody want to point me in a useful direction here?

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Post Post #3020  (isolation #434)  » Wed Nov 16, 2016 6:17 pm

In post 3004, boring wrote:p-edit: FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, NO ONE LYNCH ZORONOS!


I want to talk about this right here.

It makes me think Boring may actually be town. The scum motivation here is to 1) throw a hail mary and throw us off the scent if Zoro is actually her partner. The other scum motivation is would be to MAYBE not die today, but I find this unlikely.

The town motivation says 'here is my last will and testament. When I flip town, let it be known that I SUPER town read Zoro.'

The town motivation weighs SO much more than the scum motivation in my eyes.

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Post Post #3022  (isolation #435)  » Wed Nov 16, 2016 10:15 pm

I have no clue where you got this power play bs from. I'm asking for opinions from town because I care where people's thoughts are. Nobody seems be interested in driving discussion so I'm doing it myself. You can drop the 'power play' argument - it's bad.

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Post Post #3025  (isolation #436)  » Wed Nov 16, 2016 10:39 pm

I don't know why you guys are asking permission...

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Post Post #3047  (isolation #437)  » Sat Nov 19, 2016 11:14 am

How does priority work with jailkeeper and the NK? If Zoro chose the correct target, would he still die?

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Post Post #3051  (isolation #438)  » Sat Nov 19, 2016 12:38 pm

The good news is we have 2 shots at this lynch. From implosions perspective and just rando-lynching from among remaining players we have a 50/50 shot. Odds are actually better than that assuming Implo has correctly pegged a townie.

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Post Post #3053  (isolation #439)  » Sat Nov 19, 2016 12:44 pm

My inclanation is that, via POE, it must be Dier
Prism wouldn't sub out as scum and BlackVoid feels towny. If we're wrong about dier I say we lynch BV next. This is obviously leaving a substantial blindspot in Prism but I don't think I'm wrong there.

Does anyone NOT think Dier should be today's lynch?

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Post Post #3055  (isolation #440)  » Sat Nov 19, 2016 3:36 pm

Ascetic would also explain Zoro being dead given the fact that he was planning on jailing dier.

He was planning on jailing Dier, right?

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Post Post #3056  (isolation #441)  » Sat Nov 19, 2016 11:21 pm

This feels a little bit too easy, but I think it's just Dier here.

VOTE: dierfire

His [post]2955[/vote] doesn't make a whole lot of consistent sense. His spoiler tag, where he discusses myself and Prism, mentions a number of times that I'm unlikely to be mafia. Yet his summary has me in his 2nd most likely scum team.

I posted a case on him a while back which his response was largely 'yeah, that's a thing.'

My only trepidation here is that it just feels too easy.

BlackVoid has felt towny since subbing in. When LUV was flailing for a counter-wagon he put a vote on Shadow_Step (and also chose to scum read Shadow_Step on D1 based on my admittadly thin reasonings). These make me think BV is town now.

Implosion is conf!town. So there goes that.


Moderator note: A paragraph in this post has been redacted for breaking site rules. No further action will be taken. I cannot go into further detail at this time.


EDIT: Now that both games have completed, I can explain further. The paragraph is now at the bottom of this post. It refers to an ongoing game, one which nn30 had replaced into. Players in that game could use his post here to town read him, as only town would need to "peg scum." It's a town slip. This is why referring to ongoing games is illegal, no matter how minor you think it is.


Spoiler:
I ISO'd Prism and his first two posts of the game have LUV and Boring as high priority scum. Frankly, this was the scummiest thing about him (as it could set him up for bussing later on). That said people who sub in tend to just peg scum. Having that bird's eye view of the game makes it easier to do - I just did it in a game I subbed into (and I found instances on the wiki which point to this idea as well.)
Last edited by podoboq on Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:47 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Post Post #3057  (isolation #442)  » Sat Nov 19, 2016 11:21 pm


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Post Post #3059  (isolation #443)  » Sat Nov 19, 2016 11:38 pm

^ indeed.

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Post Post #3060  (isolation #444)  » Sat Nov 19, 2016 11:41 pm

@Implosion - in the event that a case for intent / hammer happens quicker than we expect, you should prepare a list of thoughts about the game under the presumption that Dier flips town.

If he flips scum, well, the game is probably just over.
If he flips town, you're probably not going to survive to share that perspective with us. Being conf!town makes you a high priority night kill if not the only logical choice for scum to go for tonight.

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Post Post #3068  (isolation #445)  » Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:38 pm

Pre-emptive prod dodge.

Still waiting Dier. :)

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Post Post #3070  (isolation #446)  » Tue Nov 22, 2016 2:15 am

@Dier - two questions.

1) Your 2955 included much exposition about how I'm unlikely to be mafia. However, your read list ended up stating that I was the next most likely scum team with Boring. What gives?

2) Why does LUV vote for his partner over a townie in this situation?

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Post Post #3079  (isolation #447)  » Tue Nov 22, 2016 10:28 pm

In post 591, Prism wrote:Hey everybody, I'm finally caught up. Heads up that I'm really bad at reading things I wasn't here for due to sheer volume (more specifically, keeping up with connections between posts) so expect me to be more reactive/thorough to future occasions than I will be here looking into the past.

Rereading I really don't like LUV as much as I thought. I liked the reaction to the wagon, it was very daring, but the post afterwards, #246, reads more as trying to stir off future trouble before it happens. It's a post for volume than substance, more chin scratching than investigation. I realize he said it was a reread post but something that for the most part is a summary doesn't really help. I also really don't like his passing on me even after I posted.

Elaborating more on my boring scumread and Zoronos townread, boring's #196 more sold me on thinking Zoronos was town than anything else. Having an inconsistent mind isn't a hallmark of being scum-being deceptive is. Saying that "I think talking about yourself is a scumtell" then doing it anyway shows less concern for appearance. And what on earth is that reasoning on the implosion read? I agree with it but that's not it at all.

Implosion is on the downhill ever since the wagon on him derailed. I agree completely that PP reacted really well to the wagon, for now I'm taking everyone else's word about him not doing this as scum but I'm doing a more thorough review later. On the other hand his read on Shadow is complete yuck and considering the thought that goes into most things I'm finding it hard to believe that this is the read getting the stamp of approval. I really don't like the noncommittal read on Maria in #562 or the halfhearted opinion fishing on boring in #563. #565's opinion on Gamma looks to me like either distancing from the wagon before it flips or fishing for a future derailment more than a real reconsideration.

I don't really have too many thoughts on Gamma himself, I feel like I need a better understanding of his meta. My initial readthrough was leaning town but after reading nn30's posts and ISOing Gamma I've waffled on that. I don't trust Implosion as far as I can throw him.

VOTE: Implosion

@Mod: Just a note that I voted boring back in #488 and that Slandaar is still in the vote count


Implosion, you expressed that if it wasn't Dier you thought it'd be Prism. Therefore, I want to talk about Prism.

This is Prism's first substantive post of the game. He successfully finds scum reads on two of three people who are now confirmed scum.

Why is this?

Explanation 1: The wiki talks a lot about town sub ins having an eye for scum. Their birds eye view of the game gives them an ancanny ability to peg the people behaving... scummy...

Explanation 2: He's scum pointing the finger of suspicion at his buddies without explicitly voting them. This allows him room to hop on a bus wagon when this is convenient to him later on down the road.

Thoughts?

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Post Post #3080  (isolation #448)  » Tue Nov 22, 2016 10:30 pm

My thoughts on Shadow / BV:

Shadow's D1 play makes sense as town - this is a bad gambit.

Shadow's subsequent play makes sense as scum - he did a good job of throwing a wrench into our discussions with his rudeness.

That said, I don't think scum will sub out because they've frustrated the town/are frustrated with the town. I think Shadow's desire to sub out means that he was actually just town who was no longer being heard.

If someone is inclined to disagree, please say so.

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Post Post #3082  (isolation #449)  » Tue Nov 22, 2016 10:36 pm

Playing this PoE game leaves just Dierfire.

I laid out my case on him in a previous post .

The crux of this was VCA. He is timid at most points in the game and totally unwilling to lead. I think this is scummy.

Of the 3 people here, I am still in favor of a Dierfire lynch. My PoE exercise here clenched it.

If you aren't, please let me know why.

We're burning daylight and we're not using any of that time to have any meaningful discussions.

Unless someone (other than Dier - sorry m8) has a reason not to lynch Dierfire, please say so now. Otherwise we should just string him up and get it over with.

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Post Post #3083  (isolation #450)  » Tue Nov 22, 2016 10:37 pm

@BV - I'm fairly certain you're town at this point and fairly certain Dier is the last remaining scum.

If you choose wrong on the first lynch, you can always just lynch the other one next.

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Post Post #3085  (isolation #451)  » Wed Nov 23, 2016 12:02 am

In post 3084, Dierfire wrote:
In post 3080, nn30 wrote:Shadow's D1 play makes sense as town - this is a bad gambit.


I want to note that this was, empirically, a good gambit for a Mafia player to make. If Shadow_step was Mafia, then the gambit was greatly successful at little cost (we're still talking about it as one of the primary reasons to read Shadow_step as Town after multiple days of play and two Mafia flips).
I'll agree that it did and does seem unlikely as a gambit (because these sorts of things don't often occur to Mafia players when less effortful measures are available), but the move was demonstrably a good one for a Mafia player to make.


Sure. There are other reasons to read BV as town though.

If this were true a mafia player would be the first to point out why it was a bad gambit to make as scum.

Grendel was the one to point it out as a bad gambit if I'm not mistaken. Eager implicitly knows this as well by way of his assuming the two of them are town for the entirety of the discussion.

Additionally, Boring's behavior after Shadow CC'd was a very quick reaction. I find it unlikely that Shadow_Step and Boring planned this together and that Boring reacted so quickly to Shadow's CC.

To me it reads more like Boring seeing an opportunity and hopping on it in order to secure a mis-lynch.

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Post Post #3088  (isolation #452)  » Wed Nov 23, 2016 12:13 am

In post 3086, Dierfire wrote:
In post 3085, nn30 wrote:If this were true a mafia player would be the first to point out why it was a bad gambit to make as scum.


What does this mean?



This means that:

1) Mafia planned the gambit
2) If mafia planned the gambit, they would have also discussed the 'success scenario' of the gambit. In this case it appears to be that 'succes' would be town interpreting the gambit as such a bad gambit to run as scum (trading 1-for-1) that Shadow_Step must be town.
3) If this is true, a mafia player would have been the first to suggest such a thing (since they would have been antsy about the success of the gambit).

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Post Post #3089  (isolation #453)  » Wed Nov 23, 2016 12:15 am

In post 3087, implosion wrote:nn i think i've made my thoughts clear... prism doesn't make sense as scum, neither do you, neither does bv. If I call prism scum out of the three it is by a sliver because I really do have no idea.


Fair enough.

I'm just playing devils' advocate here.

I'm obviously voting for Dier right now (and not Prism) That is very intentional.

Since nobody seems to want to lynch Dier, I'm trying to start a discussion. If we can rigorously prove Dier is scum via PoE (which you seem to have already done) then we can move forward with this lynch.

To do that I needed to present some sort of scum case on Prism to start that discussion.

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Post Post #3091  (isolation #454)  » Wed Nov 23, 2016 12:36 am

In post 3090, Dierfire wrote:I looked again at the reactions that boring and Lil Uzi Vert had to the claim, and they are sort of opposite reactions (Lil Uzi Vert stalls for a long time, then votes for Shadow_step; boring immediately reverses her read on eagerSnake and votes for him).


It's possible.

We have 2 lynches left.

I'll make you a deal Dierfire.

We lynch you today. Before we lynch you, name the person you have pegged as your top scum. Tomorrow, if I'm still alive, I'll take your word from the grave as the gospel and push for them all day long. You can even name me as your target and I would honor this agreement.

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Post Post #3092  (isolation #455)  » Wed Nov 23, 2016 12:49 am

This is of course under the assumption that you're town.

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Post Post #3095  (isolation #456)  » Wed Nov 23, 2016 1:26 am

@Dier - you can blame me if you want in end game :)

Do we have a deal?

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Post Post #3097  (isolation #457)  » Wed Nov 23, 2016 1:36 am

In post 3096, Dierfire wrote:Yes, that's acceptable to me (I didn't really expect anything better anyway).


All right so either you're scum attempting to WIFOM us into not killing you today

OR

You're town.

I must implore town to ignore any WIFOM thoughts which may lead them to town read Dier. Accepting this deal is the only choice he has as scum. Doing otherwise would indicate that he is scum (since he must survive today in order to win the game).

Who is your top scum, Mr. town!Dier?

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Post Post #3099  (isolation #458)  » Wed Nov 23, 2016 1:45 am

Deal.

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Post Post #3100  (isolation #459)  » Wed Nov 23, 2016 1:47 am

I also must implore town, in the event that I die or survive into tomorrow, to ignore any WIFOM related to BV. He could leave me alive because he knows I'll advocate for him or he could kill me because he knows I'll advocate for him.

We have no good way of rigorously proving this one way or another... so it's moot.

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Post Post #3108  (isolation #460)  » Thu Nov 24, 2016 9:33 am

I to am prod dodging

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Post Post #3112  (isolation #461)  » Sat Nov 26, 2016 12:58 am

I have this sneaking suspicion that it's actually just Black Void and I'm wrong about Dier. If he's scum, he's playing this 'okay fine kill me thing' incredibly cool.

Let's discuss town.

UNVOTE:

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Post Post #3114  (isolation #462)  » Sat Nov 26, 2016 2:06 am

@Implosion - the best way I can reinforce your argument is to bring up that Shadow subbed out.

I think that if Shadow, as scum, had successfully pissed off town to that degree he'd just ride the wave of confusion into LyLo. Instead, he quit.

Yep convinced myself again. BV is town.

VOTE: Dier

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Post Post #3119  (isolation #463)  » Sun Nov 27, 2016 11:13 am

Just now?

It felt too easy to get Dier to agree to the plan. He's nkt flailing, so I thought I was wrong about him.

Then I thought about you and Prism and between you two I scum read you the most. Then I talked myself out of that and therefore back onto Dier.

It's been a while with Boring. I don't know when you're referring to and likely won't remember

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Post Post #3123  (isolation #464)  » Sun Nov 27, 2016 10:14 pm

That just felt really bad out of BV.

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Post Post #3136  (isolation #465)  » Wed Nov 30, 2016 8:12 am

In keeping with Dierfire's last wishes, I will likely be pushing BV today.

His 3122 was really bad. It came kind of out of nowhere (check his feelings towards Dier previous to making that post).

I don't like his phrasing of 'somewhat scummy.'

It feels like resignation to lynch, not whelp it must be Dier!

I think 3122 feels fake and makes BV scum for it.

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Post Post #3143  (isolation #466)  » Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:32 am

BV is doing a lot of grasping to scum read me right now. His logic on the D1 Boring wagon doesnt make a whole lot of sense. I started that wagon myself...

@Prism - on mobile rn so I Can't really go in depth. Basically you've made earnest efforts to solve the game. I don't really and any opportunistic behavior from you. So as you say - unless you're God at a keyboard you're town. If you are scum I don't deserve to win this game.

Please look at 3122 again if you already haven't. It gave me the scummiest of a dummy feelings when I read it the first time. In fact...

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Post Post #3144  (isolation #467)  » Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:34 am

3122 is even worse because it didn't get followed by a vote (or an intent to hammer).

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Post Post #3146  (isolation #468)  » Wed Nov 30, 2016 11:35 am

Hey BV, let's assume for a moment that we're actually scum reading one another in a town v town scenario. What's the best scum case you can find on Prism?

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Post Post #3153  (isolation #469)  » Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:00 pm

If Shadow was scum, he likes to fly pretty close to the sun.

Also, his actually subbing out would never happen if he was scum.
Spoiler:
In post 1543, Shadow_step wrote:That's a weird kill.
Definitely made to frame boring.

In post 2092, Shadow_step wrote:Brilliant, all the lynch baits got all the good PRs :/
VOTE: Nn

In post 2096, Shadow_step wrote:Mind=blown

In post 2209, Shadow_step wrote:
In post 2201, podoboq wrote:
Lil Uzi Vert, Mafia Goon, was lynched Day 2.
It is now Night 2. Please PM all night actions to me by the deadline, or bold them in your associated private thread.
Deadline: (expired on 2016-10-29 08:44:00)

Only if bastars mod hadn't put 2 town ascetics, had this scum fuck day 1.

Boring is most likely town.

In post 2294, Shadow_step wrote:I've been giving boring a free pass so far because people seemed to be a soft target and people voting her because of her previous games as scum.
When I attacked LUV on day 1, boring had a "problem" with it.
I think one of [boring, prism] has to be scum because of LUV's readlist.

In post 2466, Shadow_step wrote:I pretty much am confirmed town.


This Boring defense parallel struck me as strikingly similar. When she defends herself from both me and Shadow, her first instinct is to ask 'are you even paying attention?' 'Are you trying?'

Spoiler:
In post 2853, boring wrote:
In post 2849, Shadow_step wrote:Not out of character. DF lynch wasn't likely to happen and I wasn't going to no lynch.

So you think both scum were voting Df but you still vote him anyway?

Are you even trying at this point?

1) I had already stated intent to hammer DF, and he was at L-1. It was absolutely going to happen. Why do you think people fell for your stupid fake-hammer? Remember? You fake-hammered DF, and then you hopped off the wagon first at the least suggestion from Implosion, taking Dier from L-1 with intent to hammer to nothing special.

2) I was talking about the Grendel wagon having 1-2 scum on it. You know, the one that had the conf. town support, and was a counterwagon to DF? The one ripe for sheeping? The one you sheeped? That wagon. Grendel's. Grendel's wagon.

3) I'm voting Dierfire because I think he's scum with you, and I'm waiting for you to ditch his wagon just before the lynch again. Of course, there's also the problem that for reasons far beyond my comprehension, no one seems open to the idea that you're scum. Even if you're just really, really bad town, he remains likely scum. I figure having everyone watch you leave his wagon again will help my case. If you do somehow follow through this time, that's great too. I see it as a win-win.

In post 1266, boring wrote:
In post 1238, nn30 wrote:From before the CC:
Boring was doing little / no scum hunting. She joined the Zoronos wagon (3rd there). Aside from questioning his logic once or twice, she loses interest in Zoronos fairly quickly. She joins the Penguin wagon (also 3rd) and aside from her rainbow read list (putting Penguin as her top scum read) she spends the next 15 posts without engaging with Penguin again.
After the CC:
She votes Eager with little to no thought about the CC (literal minutes between SS announcing and her voting Eager). She drops Eager (previously a 2nd to top town read) to her biggest scum read with little to no explanation, thought, consideration... nada. This feels very opportunistic.
Also, this:
In post 1037, boring wrote:@town? - eager has been coasting, and the only thing in the way of my gut scumlean was the fact that he had an uncc'd claim. A cc from an obvious town player was more than enough reason to vote him.

She is specifically referring to the period of time before the Shadow CC that she had a scumlean on him. This directly contradicts her read list from that period of time (where snake was her second to top town read).
In post 1165, boring wrote:...
If you bothered to open an ISO, you'd see that I've been pretty clear about my feelings regarding eager's claim. That being, he was an uncc'd town claim, which left unchallenged, left him as a prime night kill target (because of the probably confirmed town status). As I also stated several times, if he lived to tomorrow, I'd re-evaluate. So for Day 1, uncc'd regardless of how untown he seemed, I didn't feel like I had much choice but to accept him as confirmed town.
...

Further contradiction. He's probably confirmed town without a counter claim - yet in 1037 (when there was still no CC) she has a scumlean on him.
Fishy. Fishy fishy.
I had a slight scum read on Boring before the CC. The most quantifiable thing is that her read list felt hinky to me (like she was posting it instead of actually scum hunting). There was also a gut feeling, which is more difficult to quantify.
Snake also pointed out that he parked his vote on Boring the entire day - and nobody nibbled - meaning 0 scum tried to hop onto the wagon and test the waters (implying that Boring herself is scum, causing the lack of interest in her wagon). I like this logic a lot.
Fin.

So, you haven't been paying attention like, at all? Hopefully when this trip is over, I'll have time to go through and show you point-for-point where you've clearly glossed, ignored, and misrepped. I realize this isn't the first time you've gotten totally confused in this game, but geez.
It's like you're pretending to be Zoro, except Zoro actually brought up some valid concerns (unfortunately for me).
Anyway, my request stands. Please wait for me to come back and post if y'all get to the point of intent to hammer on me. Or just lynch eagerSnake. Either one works.



As for Prism:

The bolded in the first quote reads as helly manipulative.

He's apparently forgotten 2927, too.

Spoiler:
In post 3149, Prism wrote:
In post 3148, Prism wrote:The only thing scummy from BV so far to me is what I stated above so this 3 way is a lot more about either convincing me you're town or convincing me Shadow showed he was scum.
This was supposed to go at the very end of that post, directed at nn, rather than in the middle and directed at BV.


In post 2927, Prism wrote:Alright, that basically removes any doubt I had about the Shadow slot. Black gave that list in 30 mins, there's no way he faked it. Those reads were legit and I doubt it was convenient to keep the same reads as scum. Maybe he could have gone back and revised just one/two but there's no way the whole thing is fake.

I feel bad for DF since I literally have barely read anything he's said and basically haven't even given him a chance, but at this point I really don't think I need to. If boring flips town then I'll be forced to as that means I'm wrong on one of Zoro/nn but I'll cross that bridge if we get there.

VOTE: boring




Yeah I'm seriously considering this path.

@BV - can you explain why you had a scum read on Prism before you entered the game?

I re-read the sub out fiasco. At the moment, it looked like Prism may have wanted to leave because of Shadow's aggressive treatment. Maybe he felt this way because he felt personally attacked - and wanted to sub out - even though he was scum?

That, coupled with the fact that Shadow was a ballsy jerky player all game, why the hell would he sub out if he were scum? The's the kind of person that would LOVE teeing off the town as scum.

Plus there's this.

In post 2891, Shadow_step wrote:Also, playing with clueless newbies like nn isn't really thrilling either.


You don't say this on your way out as scum. If you're scum, you're secretly happy that I'm lost because you're taking credit for confusing me. You're not going to insult me because you successfully confused me - doing so undermines any confidence you (rightly) should have derived for sending me through so many loops all game if you were scum.

@BV - I think we've been scum reading each other incorrectly. I think that I'm still alive because I'm a bit of a VI (meh...) - Prism felt he could manipulate me with a hard town read on me.

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Post Post #3160  (isolation #470)  » Thu Dec 01, 2016 12:38 pm

I would like BV's reaction before I engage with you Prism.

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Post Post #3161  (isolation #471)  » Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:04 pm

In post 3157, Prism wrote:Really not doing wonders for my paranoia that your townread on me was just pingponging it back to me.


If you're town - you have to understand that it is in both of our best interests to sufficiently vet one another.

If you're scum - this vague 'quit scum reading me or else' threat isn't going to work.

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Post Post #3163  (isolation #472)  » Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:48 pm

In post 2891, Shadow_step wrote:Also, playing with clueless newbies like nn isn't really thrilling either.


@BV

The above quote is the strongest reason I have to believe you're town. It's so strong that I back-tracked on my Prism town read due to it.

1) Do you feel that my reading of this quote is accurate? Why or why not?


2) If you think the above quote is a good reason to town read you, the onus is on me to earn a town read from you. I obviously have my work cut out.

For the moment I'm still interested in why you were scum reading Prism before you entered the game - I'd like to talk about that.

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Post Post #3167  (isolation #473)  » Thu Dec 01, 2016 9:50 pm

In post 3166, Prism wrote:To flip this back, if you're town, you're not realizing that my vote is not a given in your favor. That post didn't even try to consider me as town, which is weird as fuck for someone who supposedly shared my sentiment that you had to be town.

@Prism - if I'm the last remaining scum and I read this from a townie:

In post 3149, Prism wrote:
In post 3148, Prism wrote:The only thing scummy from BV so far to me is what I stated above so this 3 way is a lot more about either convincing me you're town or convincing me Shadow showed he was scum.


I'd say 'yeah mean, I'm town look at me! oooohhhh look how scummy BV is!'

And then I'd take that check and cash it at the bank for a free Win.

By creating my best scum case on you, I've taken that olive branch and thrown it to the ground. I'm taking the path of least resistance and, frankly, you should be town reading me for it.

Your above quote DOES mean that if I wanted to I could have taken your vote on BV for granted. I didn't do that.

In post 3166, Prism wrote:To flip this back, if you're town, you're not realizing that my vote is not a given in your favor. That post didn't even try to consider me as town, which is weird as fuck for someone who supposedly shared my sentiment that you had to be town.


Take a look at my cases on Dierfire, Grendel, and Zoronos. This behavior has been my MO all game. You just never noticed beccause my case-building never landed on you.

@BV - Take a look back at Prism's ISO. His first post of the game is a vote for Boring, then his second post of the game () contains a weak walk back on his scum read of Boring, possible FoS on LUV, and a vote for Implosion.

For him to enter the game, peg two scum in the way that he did, and end up on the Eager wagon () is bizarre.

He began D3 with a fairly strong scum read on Boring (). Yet, directly following that vote, he spends a lot of time and energy on other people until finally he switches over to Grendel .

The chain of posts I just linked to were in chronological order starting with his vote for Boring in and ended with his vote on Grendel in .

For somebody who felt strong enough to vote for Boring, he didn't spend a whole lot of time trying to gather votes onto her. He mostly just argues with other people about unrelated things.

This line of play could obviously come from town. But... the more I read it the more it feels scummy to me.

@Town!Prism - don't take this as a sleight against you. I'm doing my due dilligence here.
@Town!BV - don't let your conf!bias goggles obscure what I'm trying to put in front of you. Is this case on Prism really bad? Or are you discounting it because you're scum reading me?

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Post Post #3172  (isolation #474)  » Thu Dec 01, 2016 10:09 pm

In post 3168, BlackVoid wrote:
In post 3167, nn30 wrote:you should be town reading me for it.

This seems to be the reason you did it though. I think you wanted the "why would nn30 go for Prism if he were scum rather than try to get his vote?" cred.


It isn't the reason I did it though.

PLUS

I had no need to do it. A scum!Nn30 wouldn't need to take this unconventional tact to win the game.

I'd have just tunneled you into the ground after what Prism told me in

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Post Post #3173  (isolation #475)  » Thu Dec 01, 2016 10:11 pm

In post 3169, Prism wrote:He spent the whole game tunneling nn


This isn't accurate.

D1 he had me as basically conf!town.

It was only after I started to get pissed at his arrogance did he start suspecting me as scum.

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Post Post #3174  (isolation #476)  » Thu Dec 01, 2016 10:12 pm

@Prism - your entire feeling towards shadow in is predicated on Shadow having enough self-awareness to know how arrogant he was being.

He did not have this self-awareness.

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Post Post #3181  (isolation #477)  » Thu Dec 01, 2016 10:56 pm

Prism - you're quoting everything I'm saying and replying with 'nuh uh!'

Stop that.

Chill.

Let BV get a word in edgewise - his opinion is the one I'm looking for here.

A good scum can talk their way out of anything. Forgive me for not allowing a scum!Prism be the one to refute the case on him.

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Post Post #3184  (isolation #478)  » Thu Dec 01, 2016 11:05 pm

I did read them.

Mentioning Boring/talking to Boring and pushing townies to vote for boring are not the same thing.

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Post Post #3187  (isolation #479)  » Thu Dec 01, 2016 11:19 pm

Prism.

You've just spammed me with at least 2000 words to respond to.

I'm going to need you to tone down the level of pissed you are at me for not jumping at responding to all of that at 11:15 at night.

I'll take another look at things tomorrow when I have ~2 hours to do so (because responding to everything you've just posted will take that long).

If we're both town we'll figure this out together. Until then, I'm going to need you to quit treating my attempt to build a case on you as an affront to your existence.

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Post Post #3193  (isolation #480)  » Fri Dec 02, 2016 3:29 pm

@BV - check my join date, and read through my 1 completed scum game.

I recall that you said you'd do a meta dive - I don't think that you ever gave the results of that dive.

I think that if you read my completed scum game and compare it to this game I behave much more boldly (and erratically) in this game than that game.

What conclusions you draw from that are up to you.

I mention join date because, while people do change from game to game, I don't think I've had long enough to develop my scum game from then to now.

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Post Post #3196  (isolation #481)  » Sat Dec 03, 2016 11:20 pm

Prodge.

Been busy this weekend.

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Post Post #3201  (isolation #482)  » Mon Dec 05, 2016 10:18 pm

I take the GRE tomorrow.

I don't have the time to dive into responding to everything you need me to respond to Prism.

I will in a day or two though.

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Post Post #3205  (isolation #483)  » Wed Dec 07, 2016 12:11 am

So here's where I am:

Prism, I can still respond to everything you wanted, but I don't think I'm going to need to.

I ISO'd both Shadow_Step & Prism. During this re-read, I went through and counted each time either Prism or Shadow directly addressed either of Boring or LUV in a post.* The idea being that scum don't talk to their partners as much due to them not actually caring what they think and that scum talk to town more precisely because they are the crowd they need to convince.

Shadow's posts: 22/352 = 6.3% towards conf scum
Prism's posts: 16/156 = 10%

Prism wins town points here by a significant margin.

Second, I took a look at Shadow's D1. He had me as conf!town for quite a while - until he began pushing me during (D3? I think?) I can understand walking back your top town read, but that much of a flip is pretty drastic.

Prism, I want to draw your attention to 3122 once more - but this time read starting at the beginning of the day (starts on ). This was his first meaningful contribution to the day beyond 'I'm going to re-read and get to it later.' BV basically lurked his way through the day, waited for town to talk itself into lynching another townie, and then hopped on at the last minute in 3122 with some weak attempt to join the consensus (which he did absolutely nothing to help form).

Today, he's even stolen some of the same logic his predecessor (at least, I think it was Shadow) used to scum read me.

In post 3141, BlackVoid wrote:There was a five person wagon on Boring D1. I don't think they were all town. I guess they could be but I'm not going to townread every one of them just for voting her. Odds are pretty high at least one scum was on that wagon.


The previous use was when Boring was still alive. Shadow (I think) used VCA to point at the wagon full of dead townies, and me, and say 'whelp I doubt that the entire wagon was made of townies, NN must be scum then.

Now that Boring is dead he's just recycling it.

Most of his attempts to scum read me are cherry picking events and interpreting them through the lens of conf-bias. He's not actually trying to get at the motivation of anything - he's just stating plausible ways that a scum!Nn30 would have made that move. It's not an attempt to solve the game - it's just weak.

In digging through your posts from this game, you're employing a level of analysis that is difficult to match if you're scum. It actually explains why Shadow behaved so erratically all game - his posts lacked logic because he lacked an ability to fake it. Your posts, on the other hand, were full of indications of you actually attempting to solve the game. Plus, you were pretty quick to remove the town-cred Boring got for her 'pushes' on LUV D1. I don't think you'd do that to her as her partner.

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Post Post #3208  (isolation #484)  » Wed Dec 07, 2016 3:25 pm

It had nothing to do with your reaction, hun

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Post Post #3210  (isolation #485)  » Wed Dec 07, 2016 8:31 pm

You've pretty resolutely failed to so any meaningful scum hunting since you got here. You said 'idk man' all day yesterday - once Dier looked like he was going down, you finally chimed in by adding fuel to the already raging fire.

Today you began by saying you'd do a pro and con list and, so far, you've just come up with crappy reasons to scum read me.

You aren't trying to solve the game.

You're scum.

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Post Post #3213  (isolation #486)  » Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:52 pm

Ugh. I thought you had come in a day later - I actually remembered incorrectly. You did come in and push Boring.

Lylo is hard.

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Post Post #3215  (isolation #487)  » Thu Dec 08, 2016 12:02 am

@Prism - give me a rundown of what you want responses to and I'll respond.

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Post Post #3218  (isolation #488)  » Thu Dec 08, 2016 12:46 pm

This is a 129 page game. On top of that, I'm in a number of other games. On top of that, I have things going on in my life which take up valuable brain space. On top of that, I seem to have inherited a 'forgetful gene' from my father. He's the kind of guy who will leave a party and come back a half an hour later to get his wallet. And then come back another half an hour later to get his sunglasses. In this respect - I'm a chip off the ol' block.

So yeah - I don't have a photographic memory of things that have happened in this game.

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Post Post #3222  (isolation #489)  » Sat Dec 10, 2016 12:02 am

You've said I'm going to reread' at least 5 times now BV.

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Post Post #3227  (isolation #490)  » Sat Dec 10, 2016 1:01 pm

Take your time Prism. Clearly something big happened. This is only a game - do what you need to.

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Post Post #3230  (isolation #491)  » Sat Dec 10, 2016 10:18 pm

In post 3229, Prism wrote:but that case on me reads like you didn't even try to consider me as being town


I feel like this is the biggest issue you had with the series of posts.

In short - I've been doing that all game. Look at my case on Zoronos / Grendel from a while back: Zoro - and Grendel . I probably did it to Penguin too now that I think about it...

My town play needs some work.

@BV -

Spoiler:
This bothers me considerably.
In post 3137, BlackVoid wrote:So, leaning towards it being nn30 but my townread on Prism is mostly based on Prism's replace out so I want to look at Prism's actual play before voting.


This was posted on November 30th and since then you haven't actually given any consideration to Prism's play. The closest thing to that is in but you start that off with 'as a spectator' and never really move into a commentary that you've developed since getting a role PM.

Most of what you've done today is throw weak shade in my direct: is a good example. You accuse me of not having done a re-read (not true, by the way) as a defense for not having posted the results of the re-read you've promised numerous times now. It's weak as all hell.

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Post Post #3231  (isolation #492)  » Sat Dec 10, 2016 10:18 pm

In post 3229, Prism wrote:but that case on me reads like you didn't even try to consider me as being town


I feel like this is the biggest issue you had with the series of posts.

In short - I've been doing that all game. Look at my case on Zoronos / Grendel from a while back: Zoro - and Grendel . I probably did it to Penguin too now that I think about it...

My town play needs some work.

@BV -

Spoiler:
This bothers me considerably.
In post 3137, BlackVoid wrote:So, leaning towards it being nn30 but my townread on Prism is mostly based on Prism's replace out so I want to look at Prism's actual play before voting.


This was posted on November 30th and since then you haven't actually given any consideration to Prism's play. The closest thing to that is in but you start that off with 'as a spectator' and never really move into a commentary that you've developed since getting a role PM.

Most of what you've done today is throw weak shade in my direct: is a good example. You accuse me of not having done a re-read (not true, by the way) as a defense for not having posted the results of the re-read you've promised numerous times now. It's weak as all hell.

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Post Post #3233  (isolation #493)  » Sat Dec 10, 2016 10:30 pm

Re Zoro: - may have been setup spec, but it was still 'I think Zoro is scum for sure' the post.

Re Grendel: - I may have given you the wrong Grendel stuff. Hold on.

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Post Post #3234  (isolation #494)  » Sat Dec 10, 2016 10:33 pm



There's what I was thinking of when I sent you on the Grendel stuff.

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Post Post #3235  (isolation #495)  » Sat Dec 10, 2016 10:37 pm

In post 3232, Prism wrote:My biggest issue here is that you're skeptical of BV going through the motions and forcibly mashing in the puzzle pieces until they fit the narrative, but to me this just makes me think of your case on me, because that's definitely something you were doing there


I don't think you quite understand what I'm saying about BV's play.

The difference between him and I is that he's making very little effort to arrive at the conclusion that I'm scum whereas I'm airing out my thought process for all to see. For example: . Specifically, I say 'yeah, I'm seriously considering this path.' This is because I had just finished ISOing Shadow and the result was that I couldn't see a scum player behaving like he did. Compare my 3153 with any of BV's attempts today (or ever, really) and you'll see what I mean.

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Post Post #3237  (isolation #496)  » Sun Dec 11, 2016 12:05 am

In post 476, boring wrote:Rainbow time!
Because I get bored going so long without a splash of color.

Shadow_step - Has an aggressive town persona. A hint of grandiosity. I haven't seen this behavior before with scum.
eagerSnake - He's got a most-likely-town claim. If he's still alive tomorrow, he'll probably be bumped way down because he's pretty useless
nn30 - Awkward, but in a townish way. Provides good observations.
Grendel - His line of speculation appears faulty, but not scummy. Probably town.
Gamma Emerald - Acting like he did in the last game, which was town.
Zoronos - Still feels off, but in consistent ways. I'm beginning to suspect part of it is personality. Doesn't seem survival-oriented.
MariaR - At least she admits that she's been coasting. No solid read yet.
DierFire - The vote-and-disappear thing, even during RVS, is pretty scummy. His one post was decent.
Lil Uzi Vert - I know people seem mostly over him now, but he's remains one of the scummier posters today. Might be personality.
Slandaar/Prism - Because prod dodging with no content. Sub-outs are more likely scum than town.
implosion - I get the impression that he's trying to blend in, and stay out of trouble. Reactive.
PenguinPower - Bad votes, reactions lack a feeling of authenticity, posts lacking substance, and dismissive in a way that I only see with scum.


@BV - what are your thoughts on Boring posting this? Generally, where would she put her buddies?

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Post Post #3238  (isolation #497)  » Sun Dec 11, 2016 12:28 am

@Prism- take a look at . What does this look like to you?

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Post Post #3239  (isolation #498)  » Sun Dec 11, 2016 12:29 am

Even better,

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Post Post #3240  (isolation #499)  » Sun Dec 11, 2016 12:33 am

@BV - What do you make of ?

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Post Post #3241  (isolation #500)  » Sun Dec 11, 2016 12:41 am

@BV - what do you make of and being back to back from LUV?

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Post Post #3242  (isolation #501)  » Sun Dec 11, 2016 12:53 am

@BV - good find on . Let's presume you're correct on that and Boring is talking to a partner and overblowing it for theater. Prism responds in and for someone who has been pretty long winded all game, he doesn't have a lot to say here. Interestingly enough, Boring doesn't respond any further - her next post is and totally ignores Prism's 627.

I'm also having trouble with Shadow's ascetic counter-claim (and Boring's reaction to it). See, Shadow has to fly pretty close to the sun in order to have the balls to counter-claim ascetic anyways. On top of that Boring just sheeps it in . Boring is either 1) acting opportunistically here or 2) the plan was to sheep it all along.

2 doesn't seem very likely because I feel like she'd at least pretend to 'think' about it a bit before hopping onto the Eager wagon. Scum like to put lots of logic into what they think and do (since it makes them look like they're trying to solve the game). Nothing of the sort occurred here.

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Post Post #3243  (isolation #502)  » Sun Dec 11, 2016 12:59 am

(Sorry for the spam posts guys)

@BV - is interesting from my POV. See, the last two people LUV addresses in that post are Boring and Prism. In combination with what I've pointed out in , it smells like the scum clan decided that the best course of action was a LUV bus and he's playing the part swimmingly.

Another parallel I pointed out earlier - check out and . Boring defends herself in exactly the same way in both of those posts: "are you even trying?" and "so, you haven't been paying attention, like, at all?"

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Post Post #3244  (isolation #503)  » Sun Dec 11, 2016 1:08 am

More on LUV's 1812. The reason the ordering is interesting is because, from a psychological perspective, it's not out of the question that LUV would put his responses to his scum buddies last on accident and, in doing so, be committing a very tiny scum slip.

He could also have hidden Boring 2nd from the bottom by responding to Prism.

I suppose at this point it's fairly clear that my re-read of this game always points back to me suspecting Prism. BV, when you scum read me, I implore you to make an attempt to read me like a VI rather than a scummy mastermind. I've only been playing forum mafia a short while (joined in August). My town game needs a lot of work and frankly due to the way a couple games have ended (newbie 1749 and 1741) I kind of deserve the VI crown for a while. I understand why you'd scum read me, I really do. I bounce around a lot, I'm inconsistent, and it's fairly easy to find scum play in that. But please please please try and at least consider that it could be coming from a confused townie.

Think about it BV.

I'm going to keep digging tonight. Maybe I'll find a nugget that points back to Prism town but I dunno.

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Post Post #3245  (isolation #504)  » Sun Dec 11, 2016 1:33 am

more of LUV linking Prism and Boring.

Boring asks Prism a question which Prism's next two posts blow off: & . He never answers Boring.

Interesting find:
In post 2267, Prism wrote:For all the people pointing out that my reasoning on LUV was "odd" or "weak", I've had no one tell me why this is the case.

His reasoning being 'odd' or 'weak' would be consistent with him trying to bus a partner without giving his other partners away.

provides the best reason to town read Prism I've found in a while. That said, Boring was on and pushed the LUV wagon. Our scum in this game are not averse to bussing & the entire point of the bus is to make it to LyLo, right?

is interesting - Prism trying to pocket Grendel? He certainly pocketed me all the way to LyLo.

more theater coming from Boring -> Prism. She follows it up later by saying that Prism was suggesting that she had the intelligence of an 'easter ham' in .

Boring asks Prism for a run down of what she's done that Prism thinks is scummy in . It's worth noting that Prism was voting for Boring at this time. Prism's next three posts totally fail to respond to this. Wouldn't you focus on the person you were voting for if they asked you this question if you were town?

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Post Post #3246  (isolation #505)  » Sun Dec 11, 2016 1:39 am

yet another Boring question addressed to Prism which he somehow misses (despite his vote being on her when she asked).

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Post Post #3247  (isolation #506)  » Sun Dec 11, 2016 1:48 am

seems reasonable in hindsight. Shadow goes to the conf!town Implosion and asks his opinion.

I see what @BV is saying about Prism asking for a sub out being the height of unsportsmanlike conduct. That said, Prism himself said this:

In post 488, Prism wrote:3) Can you describe your play style concisely in one sentence? Whatever it takes to win.


Maybe his plan was always to pretend to 'cool back down' and come back to the game?

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Post Post #3248  (isolation #507)  » Sun Dec 11, 2016 1:51 am

And, @BV, I have to ask you to take another look at again. Shadow is on his way to subbing out of the game here. He no longer cares about the results. This is his last will and testament. Scum!Shadow doesn't piss on me on the way out the door, but Town!Shadow certainly does. I suppose there's the possibility that Town!Shadow is pissed at Scum!Nn30 here (for playing the part of idiotic townie so well) but from my POV this obviously isn't the case.

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Post Post #3249  (isolation #508)  » Sun Dec 11, 2016 2:00 am

I asked @BV a series of questions above. Here are my thoughts on the posts, in spoiler tags so BV can come to his own conclusions without looking at mine first.

Spoiler:
- I don't think Scum!Boring puts her buddy as her #1 town read. I town read you as a result BV. I have no thoughts regarding my or Prism's placement in her list other than that either of us could be read as town or scum for it.

/ - I don't think that scum!Shadow & Scum!LUV have this protracted of an exchange with one another. Yet another reason to town read you, BV.

- Prism gives the Finger of Suspicion to both Boring and LUV, yet he still follows it up with an Eager vote. Gives me the scummies.

- LUV back to back responds to both Boring and Prism. Not only that, he responds to the walls out of Boring/Prism with very little. The parallel is what struck me here. My theory on why this is here is that the plan from the scum team was to bus LUV.

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Post Post #3252  (isolation #509)  » Sun Dec 11, 2016 1:32 pm

@BV - I basically never had to interact with my partner in that game. I FoS them once, but that's the extent of it. Never voted, and barely conversed directly.

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Post Post #3254  (isolation #510)  » Sun Dec 11, 2016 1:41 pm

@BV - Re: Bussing seeming foreign to me: Check out my 29 and 48 from the scum PT. I discuss my feelings on bussing with my partner.

viewtopic.php?f=90&t=68401&start=25

D1 of this game (podoboq's mini normal) went from October 4th - October 16th. My comments in the scum PT of my completed game occurred on October 3rd and October 19th - so approximately the same time frame.

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Post Post #3255  (isolation #511)  » Sun Dec 11, 2016 1:47 pm

In post 3253, Prism wrote:I feel like both of these are again gross mischaracterizations, as a nicer way of saying flat out false, and by default someone is doing it as town. Both my posts today and in prior days are being regularly misinterpreted or ignored. Cut it out.

I'll have more explanation later.


Most of what I've done is look at LUV/Boring's interactions with you and BV. As a result, I've found individual reasons to town read BV and associative (stemming from the way Boring / LUV treated you) reasons to scum read you. Unfortunately for you, it's less about what you've done and more about what you didn't do.

These are the only things I've brought up which are your actions which be 'misinterpreted.' I'd like your responses to each of them.

In post 3245, nn30 wrote:Boring asks Prism for a run down of what she's done that Prism thinks is scummy in 2430. It's worth noting that Prism was voting for Boring at this time. Prism's next 2472 three 2473 posts 2545 totally fail to respond to this. Wouldn't you focus on the person you were voting for if they asked you this question if you were town?


In post 3245, nn30 wrote:1965 Boring asks Prism a question which Prism's next two posts blow off: 1978 & 1986. He never answers Boring.


In post 3246, nn30 wrote: yet another Boring question addressed to Prism which he somehow misses (despite his vote being on her when she asked).

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Post Post #3256  (isolation #512)  » Sun Dec 11, 2016 1:59 pm

In post 3251, BlackVoid wrote:What I don't get about nn30 was why he was so convinced Shadow_step was scum counterclaiming.


I got high that night. Like, really high.

I got up the next day and gave up on the idea because of how much blowback I'd gotten.

Clearly high me wasn't as discerning as I'd like.

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Post Post #3261  (isolation #513)  » Sun Dec 11, 2016 2:31 pm

@Prism - dig up some reasons to scum read Shadow / BV. I think it's great that you town read me (I'm town wooh!) but my decision here isn't based on that. I need a way of choosing between you and BV and town reading me isn't going to cut it.

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Post Post #3264  (isolation #514)  » Sun Dec 11, 2016 2:37 pm

In post 2278, Prism wrote:VOTE: boring

I do not get the boring townreads at all. Boring was coming off a borderline disastrous Day 1 where she got herself into a 1v1 with someone who flipped town, then had someone who hard scumread her nightkilled. It makes a lot of sense to bus Day 2. Reading boring does nothing to convince me that this isn't the case. The Day 1 pushes people are widely citing are offhanded comments here are there while she pushes someone else. Her end of day suggestion to go on LUV over eager was in #1452, when the vote was 5 eager 3 boring with Eager yet to vote. It was already locked between her and Eager and whether or not she'd lose seemed up in the air. A lot of these newfound townreads on boring are just reflexive reactions to the LUV flip, and at least one of them is coming from scum. I still think Maria dying wasn't a coincidence.

Then there's this:
In post 2240, boring wrote:I was expecting you to be dead today too, since going for Gamma would be a huge gamble, but here we are. I agree that it would have been unhelpful to block Gamma on his last productive night. I'm thinking that roleblocker is more likely, by the way.
It's unhelpful to block Gamma last night, and thus Zoronos isn't going to do it. She acknowledges this. If a random town knows it scum knows it. Why did she expect a Gamma death?

It doesn't help that her posts have come off the wrong way to me all game as that just makes me more prone to confirmation bias.

My other top votes for today so far would be Grendel and PP, still need to reread Dierfire. If boring turns out to be town then I'm pretty lost.

In post 2336, Prism wrote:
In post 2319, Grendel wrote:I had this weird feeling creeping up on me yesterday that Prisum has been trying to pocket me this whole game.

But has made zero attempts at white knighting since I've come under fire. So I guess I was wrong?
In past days I've said virtually nothing about your alignment, the only times I did were that I liked your RVS questions and that I liked one specific post Day 2. The only reason I've ever given to townread you is based off Maria's death. In contrast, I've also pointed out that certain posts of yours were bad, and some of them worse yet replying to me without actually reading the original post (which suggests you weren't interested in them to begin with). You've been basically in the middle to bottom half of the game, and I've made it explicit that I intend to vote you today if I can't get boring. If boring is town, you are almost certainly scum by PoE. If boring is scum, you are still a very likely candidate for the partner.

You didn't even acknowledge repeated announcements for you as a potential alternative lynch, both today and yesterday. I'm not just not whiteknighting you, I'm straight up more on the offense. Between this and 2-3 other posts that appear unconcerned as to what I'm actually thinking, and boring pushing a PP lynch, you've definitely earned the second spot. I'll ISO you sometime tomorrow night.
In post 2279, nn30 wrote:p-edit - not even how early she wanted LUV on day one
I think it means nothing when it was halfhearted at best up until Day 2.
In post 2308, nn30 wrote:Boring (wanted LUV's booty for two days)
I really, really don't feel like this is the case. When was the last time you ISO'd it? I see no realistic pushing on LUV until boring was a 50/50 for the lynch.
In post 2286, boring wrote:In both these arguments, you're suggesting that I've completely changed my scum-play (and possibly suffered brain damage in the interim). Hard bussing from Day 1 is idiotic. Especially when there are so many bad town running around to provide easy counter wagons. So is killing the person most vocal against you, by the way. Not to mention it being crazy for a scum team to allow that kind of reckless killing pattern.
1. You barely went after LUV Day 1 despite mentioning him repeatedly 2. No, it's not.
In post 2286, boring wrote:Okay, assuming that was a typo, and not a senior moment, there's a difference between suspecting and knowing. There's no way that scum would risk a no-kill night. Unless the scum team can't math.
Actually, the math shows they can afford one no death without giving town an extra mislynch. It's not about "suspecting" there was a roleblocker either-you acknowledged in the post that it's stupid to jail Gamma but were apparently surprised he died.
In post 2286, boring wrote:Of course, your assumption that I'm scum seems to be based on the belief that I'm stupid, so maybe simple arithmetic is beyond me. :facepalm:
Can you quote examples of me basing my belief on you being scum as the belief that you're stupid? I've suggested nothing of the sort. This just entire post just reads as a poor ad hom defense more than anything else.
In post 2311, Zoronos wrote:I find scum tend to mark their scum buddies as 'neutral' and will constantly express mild to moderate suspicion on them *while not pushing them*. That is classic distancing. "Yeah A is scummy but let's all vote B" is scum play 101. So those things you flag as 'breadcrumbs' to me are potential setups to join the bus in case LUV goes down. Which is basically what happened yesterday. Those were specifically the things that led me to conclude he might be scum with LUV.
What you are describing is what boring did Day 1 with LUV.
In post 2308, nn30 wrote:Prism (he intentionally draws attention to himself for people to state reads on him as scum wouldn't do).
What's your basis for this? I do it because my reads are a lot more accurate when gained through 1 on 1 interaction, but this is precisely the thing you want to be said about you as mafia and I play as such accordingly. I don't mean to be arrogant but as scum I've got the behavioral quirks down pat. If you're going to townread me, it should be more on the basis of my votes and my reasoning/timing, and it should be done sooner rather than later. I think my reads on implosion prior to his confirmed status and now boring are the best chances to evaluate that.

@Prism - check out newbie 1742. BV is scum. On D3 (LyLo) he said the phrase: "I'm going to have to look over interactions" (332) and "You're kidding, right?" (363). In this LyLo he's done the same (will re-read) and said, to you, you're kidding right? (3189).

What do you make of this?

Scum game BV ISO: viewtopic.php?p=8385736#p8385736

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Post Post #3265  (isolation #515)  » Sun Dec 11, 2016 2:45 pm

@Prism - viewtopic.php?f=94&t=68443&start=25

Check out post 41 from the mafia topic. His plan for LyLo is to push the opportunistic angle on a townie.

- He does the very same thing with me.

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Post Post #3266  (isolation #516)  » Sun Dec 11, 2016 2:45 pm

Quotes in 3264 weren't meant to be there.

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Post Post #3267  (isolation #517)  » Sun Dec 11, 2016 2:52 pm

In post 2972, BlackVoid wrote:
In post 2474, implosion wrote:Alright, nn's play today feeling town:

I think it's pretty much entirely encapsulated . That post gives me two reasons to think nn is town:

-the indignance with which he describes his play as town. This is more of a gut thing, it isn't going to be rigorously justifiable. It does go beyond simply indignance; it feels to me like nn is genuinely trying to work with people to solve the game. His insistence that the people pushing him give cases, his rhetoric towards Zoronos, and so on.

-his throwing townreads out left and right. If he's scum then the way that he went into today is painting himself into a corner, immediately striking out both pp and boring as likely directions for him to push in going forward. Granted, he did flip on boring now, but in a reasonable way in response to new information which him as scum wouldn't have known would be guaranteed to happen. To generalize he is playing this day very off-the-cuff, throwing reads out and laying his opinions bare for everyone to investigate. Saying he , then giving to vote him 7 minutes later. And then saying he got more from Grendel 40 minutes after that. He's responsive. He doesn't have a plan. His play just doesn't feel like scum who's trying to get a person in particular lynched, or avoid lynching anyone else in particular, or try to avoid being lynched himself; his play is just too much a combination of putting himself out there and not having a plan behind it to be scum, I think.

So, I read the posts you are pointing out. Obviously I need to re-read them in context before I can comment on them but he has a completed game as mafia so I'm going to check whether these are not just all playstyle-indicative.


I don't think you ever commented on this BV.

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Post Post #3270  (isolation #518)  » Sun Dec 11, 2016 3:08 pm

You.

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Post Post #3272  (isolation #519)  » Sun Dec 11, 2016 3:09 pm

I'm still trying to solve the game.

I suspect both of you.

I just suspect you more.

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Post Post #3273  (isolation #520)  » Sun Dec 11, 2016 3:20 pm

All right Prism, last thing -

viewtopic.php?f=56&t=67645&start=5600

He subs into a game and starts talking with townies, asking questions, and trying to solve things.

He subbed into this game and just started telling us what he thought about the game.

Totally different behavior.

Scum motivated?

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Post Post #3278  (isolation #521)  » Sun Dec 11, 2016 5:19 pm

In post 3275, BlackVoid wrote:Also, it would really help if both of you engage my posts in depth.


I'd like you to engage mine as well.

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Post Post #3280  (isolation #522)  » Sun Dec 11, 2016 5:33 pm

Will do.

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Post Post #3282  (isolation #523)  » Sun Dec 11, 2016 9:41 pm

@BV - Did you read the completed scum game / scum PT? The scum PT should show my feelings toward bussing fairly transparently. I'd like to know what this pings you as.

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Post Post #3283  (isolation #524)  » Sun Dec 11, 2016 9:43 pm

Also, take a look at how I treated Dominator / Iron Stove in Art Mafia. There's a lot of 'batshit crazy' going on there as well.

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Post Post #3284  (isolation #525)  » Sun Dec 11, 2016 10:19 pm

All quotes in this post are from BV. Spoiler tag for length.

Spoiler:
In post 3274, BlackVoid wrote:What's notable is that Boring also voted LUV on D2 so it could be a co-ordinated bus that both competent members of the scumteam are doing.


I noticed this as well. Did you notice this independently of my musings on the topic yesterday/earlier today?

nn30 hedges on LUV trying to decide if it's scum or bad town. In fact, Prism was apparently so town that LUV's suspicion of Prism is what's causing this.


LUV was a big fat question mark for me all game. I was never part of his wagon because I never thought he was scummy enough. Obviously, I was wrong.

1749 - Gamma becomes nn30's strongest scumread. What I don't get is how you suddenly forgot about the massive Boring case you made yesterday especially given that the counterwagon flipped town. That should have re-iterated your scumread of Boring. But this seems to be a recurring theme where you make up a scumread, and then push somewhere else, and you are constantly changing your opinions. At least, that's consistent all the way through.


Don't attribute to malice what could just as equally be attributed to stupidity.

1834 - This is very hypocritical considering your play this game and how easily you forget previous reads and general forgetful nature.


Yes it is. My town game needs work.

1848 - This VC points towards Prism-town since I doubt both scum would be bussing here while there's a town counterwagon.


LUV put Gamma at L-1 a couple posts up. It's likely that scum wanted to be the hammering vote here.

1933 - I like nearly everything about this post. The suspicion of both Boring and LUV as well how thorough he's double-checking that Implosion clear. I didn't like the digs at Implosion's theory post but that's probably not alignment-indicative.


Finger of suspicion is a thing.

The one thing that's bugging me though is I'm wondering if the bus on LUV was co-ordinated by Boring and Prism.


Check out . What I point out here would add to the coordinated bus theory.

2278 - Prism pushes on. This would have been a really risky double bus following a bus on LUV. I get now what you mean when you say that your play spoke for itself. Still curious how Boring wasn't lynched that day. Need to check what happened later on.


He follows up the Boring scum read in but then something shiny catches him in , , , and culminates with a scum read (and push) on Grendel in . He certainly started the day here, but his follow through was not the strongest.

2279 - nn30's reaction here is how I expect scum to react. Saying that Boring's bus on LUV made her town.


I actually don't think scum do a whole lot of defending their partners, but I could be wrong. Even if I'm wrong, check my completed scum game. I barely talked to my partner, let alone defended her.

2428 - This is the crucial unvote from nn30. It looks like he's saw the suspicion Grendel had from Prism and is encouraging Prism and Implosion to look to him as an alternative to Boring.


Malice and stupidity.

2376 - Interesting thing from this VC though is that everytime nn30 voted Boring, it's always when a wagon has formed on her. He's never the driving force behind a Boring lynch.


Check D1 again. I'm fairly certain I was like a dog with a bone.

But I also think that if he truly didn't know Boring's alignment, he'd be more wary about Penguin trying to set up lynches.


I was unhappy about it. I may not have behaved like you wanted me to, but I didn't like that he was trying to line me up behind Boring based on her flip.

2549 - This Prism post is deadly risky because he suggests that Implosion singularly pick the day's lynch. Implosion has been pretty clear that he wanted Boring so it seems obvious that Boring is who he would push. He also lays down some plans for what Zoronos should do which I think would be shooting himself in the foot if he was mafia. I'm just not sure where his skill level is at and what are the kinds of things he could fake.


This isn't risky at all if scum have a role-blocker (which town has mused about for a while now).

2699 - This is really weak. NN30 hasn't been overwhelmingly town in this game. To be fair, I skimmed some of his posts. Making over 500 posts is overkill and I can't keep track of any of his thoughts or opinions which change on a dime. He's all over the place. I fail to see how you can make any sense of his posting. To call him a god or town is really a stretch.


Yep. I claim village idiot. I'll remove my crown once I've figured out how to play better. I think you're right to point this out about Prism - though he has been saying I'd have to be a god to be scum.

2860 - This is a really weird post. D3, nn30 was pushing Boring but then switches over and says he's not convinced Boring is scum. Seriously, all your stance changes are giving me whiplash.


*Shrug* Sorry man. Like I said, check out Art Mafia. I did a bit of that there as town too.

Check out Implosion's 2474 - specifically how he says I don't have a plan. Grendel called me the 'waffle peddler' before we lynched him. It's pretty fitting frankly. With the lens that Implosion provides, see if you can't see my posts in a new light.

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Post Post #3285  (isolation #526)  » Sun Dec 11, 2016 10:22 pm

@Prism - Can you give me a scum motivation for

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Post Post #3286  (isolation #527)  » Sun Dec 11, 2016 10:28 pm

In post 3281, BlackVoid wrote:You called him god-level if he was scum and it seemed to me like he was the one townread you were going to take to the bank. I found this an odd choice really.


When this game is over and I flip town, you'll see that I'm actually just a VI.

Somebody who has been playing for this long will be able to recognize that. He probably pocketed me because he felt that he could manipulate me in LyLo.

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Post Post #3290  (isolation #528)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:15 am

You just quoted something that has 0 to do with bussing. I called my partner out for her obv scum play. Not bussing.

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Post Post #3291  (isolation #529)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:18 am

And I can't believe you're giving more weight to a quote you're misinterpreting than to the scum PT from the time frame of when I would have been bussing Boring.

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Post Post #3294  (isolation #530)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 12:51 pm

I need you to finish your re-read. Check today - Prism spent a lot of time explaining why he thinks I'm town, but he's done no reconciling of your behavior or your predecessor's behavior from the POV of scum. He's content with 'well Nn30 is obv town, I don't need to double check that by double checking that BV/Shadow is scum.

So, if you're Scum!BV, your POV is that Prism is likely to vote you and that I'm likely to vote you. Your best play is probably to bait me into doing something rash (which 3293 may be) since Prism hasn't really strayed far from the 'it's probably just BV' line today.

On the other hand, if you're Town!BV, you're actually just baffled by how my play could be town motivated. It's so erratic that it's natural to conclude that my play is scummy.

Okay BV - I need you to take a long hard look at LyLo of Newbie 1749 (I'm town) and LyLo of Newbie 1741 (I'm scum). In 1749 I death tunneled Dom. I was certain it was him and I attacked him relentlessly. In 1741, I spent LyLo sitting in the fence by comparison. Check how aggressive I am in the town game vs. how passive I am in the scum game - then ask yourself whether or not I've been passive or aggressive in this game.

If you do this, and come out the other end with the conclusion that I'm scum who changed my play style, so be it.

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Post Post #3295  (isolation #531)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 12:59 pm

In post 3251, BlackVoid wrote:The timing of the case on Boring was quite good and nn30 overall did push scum over the town cc's. There were two points he tied Shadow to Boring pretty blatantly and from a newb-scum, this makes sense although I do see why he would think that way as town. Boring's responses to nn30 seem fairly neutral but I'm leaning towards her talking to town based on her tone.


In post 3292, BlackVoid wrote:You said in the scum PT of one game that bussing seemed to be a bad idea. That doesn't mean that you wouldn't bus in a different circumstance in a different game. There was a town-led wagon on Boring which you joined.


Did I just catch you, BV?

How is it that I present evidence to you that I'm not a fan of bussing, and you use that evidence to walk back what you said earlier today?

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Post Post #3296  (isolation #532)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:01 pm

In 3251 you say I made a case on Boring.

In 3292 you say I just hopped on a town-led wagon.

How can you hold both of these ideas regarding my play?

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Post Post #3297  (isolation #533)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:05 pm

In post 2921, BlackVoid wrote:[Nn30] - Not Boring's partner. The case isn't bad at all.

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Post Post #3299  (isolation #534)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:29 pm

In post 3081, BlackVoid wrote:I'm still not sure which of nn30 or Dierfire it is. I guess I'll have to do this the hard way and re-read again. This is going to take a while.

Vote me then.

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Post Post #3300  (isolation #535)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:32 pm

You didn't actually contribute anything to the Dierfire discussion. You hopped on in 3122 once town had already come to a consensus.

Hey Prism, when you get back, let me know when you're ready. You played one hellofa game and if I lose to you so be it. You deserve it.

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Post Post #3304  (isolation #536)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 3:42 pm

In post 3301, BlackVoid wrote:However, one of the reasons I had a mild townread on him was due to his constant meta-reads on others which shows he's putting in effort. But this is something he does as scum rendering it null.


There's a difference between glancing at a wiki and digging through past games in order to glean play style and tendencies.

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Post Post #3306  (isolation #537)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 3:56 pm

In post 3305, BlackVoid wrote:Well, I took a break and thought about this game. The thing that's bugging me is that Prism's play is almost a bit too perfect. It's the kind of scumplay I would expect from someone that's very, very good at scum. Strategic bussing at crucial points to make it to lylo but with just enough scum-motivated play (the switch to Grendel for instance, and the vote on Eagersnake D1). Now he's in lylo with a damn good record and is on the verge of winning the game. nn30 has been wildly pushing everywhere. I honestly don't know if a player is even capable of making THAT many posts and occupying a huge part of the game. That's why I'm wondering if it's Prism.


Keep talking.

In post 3305, BlackVoid wrote:I'm going to get back to reading D6 soon but if you are town, "I'm a VI" isn't a going to cut it as a response.


What would cut it? Because either I'm a VI or I like to get wild with my scum games. I've been all over the place this game - the I'm a VI thing is basically the best thing I can give you. The game re-read you've just done encompasses my second forum mafia game. My first forum mafia game I wasn't that great at scum - my partner carried me to victory. It stands to reason that I wouldn't really know what to do in my first town game, either.

In post 3305, BlackVoid wrote:You were quick to vote both times you were town in lylo.


And it bit me in the ass.

Twice.

I've learned from that mistake.

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Post Post #3311  (isolation #538)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 4:42 pm

I'd be down to extend.

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Post Post #3316  (isolation #539)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 8:16 pm

BV, you seem to have switched your read on me since I told you to vote me. You've begun seeing town motivation in my posts and scum in Prism's.

Can you explain what caused this switch?

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Post Post #3320  (isolation #540)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:00 pm

In post 3319, BlackVoid wrote:I don't think Shadow's argument that there was at least one scum bussing Boring was a bad one.


Agreed here. It was fine logic. I just happen to know it was wrong :)

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Post Post #3325  (isolation #541)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:43 pm

@Prism - I want to see you scum hunt BV. I'm not interested in you defending yourself - that's a time sink.

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Post Post #3328  (isolation #542)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:06 pm

In post 3326, BlackVoid wrote:3254 - This doesn't really sit right with me. Like I said, just because you decided in that scumgame, in that circumstance that bussing was a bad idea doesn't mean that you wouldn't do it in a completely different circumstance.


You seem to be thinking that I was referring to the specific game in question. In post 29 of the scum PT, I say: "All the theory I've read has talked about scum bussing each other as being overrated."

That's a very general statement - one which is not very subject to change based on context.

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Post Post #3331  (isolation #543)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:19 pm

@Prism - as of right now, the game ends in 30 hours. The mod has not spoken as to whether or not the game will be extended.

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Post Post #3333  (isolation #544)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:22 pm

In post 3330, BlackVoid wrote:I've made my decision and I think it's time we just vote each other.


My heart just skipped a beat.

I don't want that kind of pressure on me.

But I kind of do because I want to be in control of my own destiny.

But I don't because I'm obviously not very good at this game.

Bleh.

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Post Post #3334  (isolation #545)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:23 pm

!!!!!

.....

@Prism - get in here and make your alignment obvious to me so that I can make the correct decision.

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Post Post #3337  (isolation #546)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:26 pm

Well we have (at least) 30. So yeah, go for it man.

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Post Post #3341  (isolation #547)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:31 pm

3339 feels very genuine.

Here's where I am - and I want Prism's response on this.

Shadow_Step doesn't piss on me on his way out of the game as scum. I can't see a way around this.

@Prism - post all the walls you want, but this is what I'm hung up on. I don't see a way for scum Shadow_Step to diss me before he replaces out.

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Post Post #3342  (isolation #548)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:34 pm

In post 3339, BlackVoid wrote:"I can't answer for any of predecessor's actions"


Funny, I spent all of Art Mafia saying that about the guy I replaced as town.

Go on though.

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Post Post #3343  (isolation #549)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:41 pm

In post 3335, Prism wrote:Not my choice. My fault, not my choice.


What do you mean by this?

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Post Post #3344  (isolation #550)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:46 pm

@BV - when I did meta dives of you, your scum game felt a lot more like this game than your completed town game. When you subbed into that ridiculously long game the first thing I noticed was you talking to players whereas you hopped into this game and just started dictating to us what you thought. This dictation was also present in your completed scum game.

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Post Post #3346  (isolation #551)  » Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:56 pm

Elaborate - I read that already. I see why you behaved the way you did in your town game, but why does it feel like you did a lot of dictating in both this and your scum game?

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Post Post #3349  (isolation #552)  » Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:04 am

I think the meta read isn't super useful here. You say that your behavior in town game was due to subbing into a conf town slot and talking. This makes sense. Without another town game to compare to, I can't really get much more out of this.

What made you so confident that Prism was scum? I know you've put this in other posts but you flipped pretty hard. You've been on me since you subbed in. I want more on this.

P-edit: Hah, 'meta isn't useful lol' I have a meta question. Your scum game, you pushed the 'opportunistic angle' on one of the townies. You did that this game as well. Why?

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Post Post #3351  (isolation #553)  » Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:16 am

I see it as town because of this.

1) Obviously I'm town (since I haven't voted you)

2) Scum!Shadow would know that I'm town. I don't see a world where he calls me a clueless newbie on his way out the door. He should pride himself for being part of why I've been chasing my tail all game.

3) Town!Shadow, on the other hand, would be pissed at me for not seeing anything he's said all game. I see a world where town!Shadow disses me on the way out the door.

Also, I'm not reading BV's last page as a trainwreck. I'm noticing a lot of the same things he is. There's the question of whether or not he figured out how I was reading the game and fit the things he's 'noticed' with that but he's also disagreed with a lot of my associative takes. It seems balanced enough that these things actually just represent what he thinks rather than his trying to manipulate me.

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Post Post #3354  (isolation #554)  » Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:35 am

1) Sorry that you're going through some stuff right now. Game aside, I feel for you.

2) I did read your posts. It's putting a lot on me to read the quotes you've presented in the same way that you are. On a more macro level, BV's analysis today has been a lot better than yours. I see your recent posts as NAI. More than wanting to see you defend yourself, I want to see you find scum motivation in Shadow's posts. Any good scum can defend themselves. I want to find a good reason to scum read BV rather than a good reason to town read you.

3) Where do you suggest I look?

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Post Post #3355  (isolation #555)  » Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:40 am

@Prism - gather yourself, come back tomorrow. We've got till Friday for me to make my decision.

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Post Post #3357  (isolation #556)  » Tue Dec 13, 2016 1:00 am

1) You point out a contradiction. I scum read Gamma for this (I was wrong) probably Penguin (I was wrong) and, frankly, I've contradicted myself all game. I don't see this as scummy. I see this as indication of reads evolving.

2) I do think it's a little wierd that you entered the game, FoS both currently dead scum, and then let Eager die D1 and Grendel die D3. I agree with his assessment.

3) You're still defending yourself. Go find things that Shadow did that aren't related to you and give me interpretations of those. Go find things BV did that don't involve you and find scum motivations for those actions. I'm not interested in you defending yourself; you'll do so, and do so well, regardless of your alignment. I want your analysis.

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Post Post #3364  (isolation #557)  » Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:51 pm

@BV - I want you to try to refute what Prism has just put on the thread.

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Post Post #3365  (isolation #558)  » Tue Dec 13, 2016 1:47 pm

Found this. Might point to why a scum Shadow_Step would see the need to take out the town ascetic in Eager Snake.

viewtopic.php?t=68324&f=90&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&user_select%5B%5D=27924&user_select%5B%5D=0&user_select%5B%5D=0&user_sort=Go

Time frame is similar too.

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Post Post #3368  (isolation #559)  » Tue Dec 13, 2016 2:31 pm

Shadow's pre-claim reads list:

In post 646, Shadow_step wrote:These are my reads

Town
(nn30, Zoronos)
(Grendel, boring)
(DF, implosion)
(Maria, LUV)
(PP, GE)
(Eager)
Scum

Haven't read prisms latest posts so I'll sort him later.


@BV - this is Shadow's read list from before the Eager CC. I want you to read the game up until that point and, based on how Eager had been playing, justify these reads.

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Post Post #3370  (isolation #560)  » Tue Dec 13, 2016 2:34 pm

He claimed to love WIFOM. He also claimed this in an unrelated PT in a mafia game he was playing. Him taking this risk isn't out the realm of possibility. The time frame the scum PT I just showed you indicates that he knows that a town he was playing against had an ascetic claim and that his ability to win was damaged by this. It is in the realm of possibility that he would target an ascetic claim in a following scum game for this reason.

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Post Post #3371  (isolation #561)  » Tue Dec 13, 2016 2:35 pm

In post 693, Shadow_step wrote:I've been hinting at it all game. Nn is an idiotic townie who can only see what's at the surface :roll:

This is standard play when you have a guilty on someone. You try to get reads out of them so that you can easily find out who is most likely their buddy.
On the phone right now so maria can you link to 649?
I had a guilty on maria on night 1. Day 2 I didn't start the day screaming Maria scum maria scum. I pushed her for reads.


This is also a straight up lie. I didn't do this at the time - but his first action on D2 is to vote Maria.

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Post Post #3374  (isolation #562)  » Tue Dec 13, 2016 2:46 pm

@Prism - check out 3368 please. I'd like your take on it as well.

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Post Post #3377  (isolation #563)  » Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:06 pm

I've spent the entire morning going over this game.

I still don't have it figured out.

MS is hard.

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Post Post #3378  (isolation #564)  » Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:31 pm

VOTE: Black Void

Final answer.

I have spent more time on this game in the last 2 days than on progressing my life forward. I'm done thinking and just need to choose. Any constructive criticisms anyone is willing to offer for my play would be appreciated.

@Dier - I hope you're right.

@Town - I made this decision for this reason: BV's flip on me today felt fishy. After I said that he should just vote me and get it over with, he conveniently flipped. That, combined with Prism's decision to vote him, means that his only chance is to win is to change my opinion.

Other reasons that led to my decision:

Spoiler:
Boring uses the same line to dissuade me that she uses on Prism:
In post 2946, boring wrote:I makes me question why you're on my wagon with him if you think he has ulterior motives. Since it's clearly unlikely that I'm SvS with that slot, why not vote Dierfire? He's likely scum in either scenario (me or Blackvoid), and it gives you time to decide what to do next.


In post 1965, boring wrote:@Prism, I don't get how you can be sitting on the bandwagon I'm leading and say I'm your second most likely scum. It makes no sense at all. I dug through his ISO and made a case today. I named him as probable scum end of day 2 too. If you really think I'm scum, wouldn't that make you question your read on LUV, of vice versa?


Spoiler:
This contradiction right here combined with the fact that he questioned my case on D1 today. See bolded in 2nd quote.
In post 2899, BlackVoid wrote:So, I'm fairly confident boring's partner is between Dierfire and nn30. Knowing I was wrong about Prism, one of my townreads on either Dierfire or nn30 is also wrong. It seems the consensus is that Dierfire is boring's partner but I think I want to read both their ISOs to see if I feel the same way as the others.

In post 2921, BlackVoid wrote:STRONG TOWN
nn30 - Self-vote + RQS response slightly scummy. Checking Eager's meta seems town but timeline seems off. Ask about this. Why PRs? But odd for scum to ask in thread. No opinions about RVS? Suspects Grendel due to response to Implosion, questions why Zoronos is town, then agrees with Zoronos to vote Implosion. Then agrees on Grendel-town. Wierd. Too much agreeing, stances change conveniently. Not Boring's partner. The case isn't bad at all.


Spoiler:
BV didn't put any effort into the Dierfire decision until town had already come to a concensus.

Spoiler:
My promise to Dierfire.


Spoiler:
Shadow's scum PT where he laments that a town ascetic claimed D1.


Spoiler:
I re-read my D1 case against shadow. Nobody noticed it - and so I decided I must have been wrong. This may be self masturbation but on re-read it made a lot of sense. Shadow's reads didn't make sense with Eager's play. For example, Eager had parked a vote on Boring all day and yet Boring wasn't top town read? He also posted about Implosion's questioning of Eager being a reason to town read Implosion yet his list had Implosion in the middle of the pack. Additionally, Boring having her top town read as Shadow for dubious reasons (hint of grandiosity lolwut?) implies that she needed him there to justify the flip she would do on Eager when Shadow CC's.


Spoiler:
The fact that Shadow had me as 'ob town' D1 and suddenly decided I'm the lynch D2.
I'm out for the day. I have to get back to my life.

GG everyone. Was fun. I'd be happy to play with you guys in the future.

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Post Post #3380  (isolation #565)  » Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:38 pm

UNVOTE:
mind changed in the shower.

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Post Post #3382  (isolation #566)  » Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:42 pm

F it.

VOTE: Prism

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Post Post #3383  (isolation #567)  » Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:43 pm

THAT'S the hammer.

Fess up so I can get on with my life, BV.

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Post Post #3385  (isolation #568)  » Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:43 pm

YES

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Post Post #3387  (isolation #569)  » Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:47 pm

This is a hard game. Holy fuck balls man. I scored in the 95th percentile for reading comprehension on the GRE and trying to read into the motivations of people on this game is goddamned impossible.

@Boring - your play failed to give away your partners. Well done, bravo, I might fear lynch you the next time we play together.

P-edit: That was my real decision. I was literally in the shower when I went back on it and I ran, naked and wet, back to the computer to unvote. Your anger flail sealed it.

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Post Post #3389  (isolation #570)  » Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:49 pm

WP BV.

@Town - Constructive criticism of my play would be greatly appreciated

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Post Post #3396  (isolation #571)  » Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:35 pm

Who else had it figured out?

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Post Post #3409  (isolation #572)  » Tue Dec 13, 2016 6:11 pm

To be fair, I defended you D1. Nobody paid attention to me though.

I saved that because I was scared of people who town read me because they may be doing so to pocket me - see Prism.

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Post Post #3414  (isolation #573)  » Tue Dec 13, 2016 6:35 pm

@Prism you made it to LyLo with a power town read from everyone who was alive the previous day. You did fine.

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Post Post #3415  (isolation #574)  » Tue Dec 13, 2016 6:37 pm

I would like to read through scum day talk.

I was also frustrated with Shadow.

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Post Post #3422  (isolation #575)  » Tue Dec 13, 2016 7:54 pm

Two things that got me Prism: Your hammer on Dier was over the top & you weren't interested in figuring out people's alignments in LyLo. You stuck to your town read on me without confirming it by finding scum motivation in shadow/BV

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Post Post #3431  (isolation #576)  » Tue Dec 13, 2016 9:22 pm

In post 3427, Prism wrote:Nice doublepost Prism. Real smooth.
In post 3422, nn30 wrote:Two things that got me Prism: Your hammer on Dier was over the top & you weren't interested in figuring out people's alignments in LyLo. You stuck to your town read on me without confirming it by finding scum motivation in shadow/BV
Yeah I realized a bit later that I had done too much with the length, and the rest of the game never got to see the humor that the other mafia did-making it uncharacteristic in your eyes. Specifically, the idea behind it when I made it was that it was a final post explaining to DF my vote, with the idea being that he deserved that much. One of the things I did that I was hoping would be picked up on was the way that I transitioned who my post was directed to-it gradually changes from an objective explanation to everyone, eventually shifting to solely addressing Dierfire. This was purposeful, and was meant to portray 1. That the post was for his sake 2. That I was earnestly becoming more and more convinced it was him as my reread progressed.

The LyLo was mainly due to time considerations, unfortunately, I had a lot more I wanted planned, including a thorough review of all three of you/BV/SS, but it never worked out like that. I think in general I needed a vastly different gameplan/approach to make Day 6 work with the time considerations in mind.


The post was so long, I never actually read it all. I just saw the 'ladies and gentlemen' thing in huge letters and the music videos you stuck with it.

Funny in hindsight though :)

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Post Post #3433  (isolation #577)  » Tue Dec 13, 2016 9:26 pm

@Prism - I love the humility you're displaying here. You must be good people IRL.

p-edit: Shadow made me want to rage quit too. I'm not mad about that at all. It ended up doing you in anyways since his replace out is what started me thinking he was town. Karma I guess?

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Post Post #3459  (isolation #578)  » Wed Dec 14, 2016 12:09 am

@Shadow - not sure you're going to see the dead thread again.

The reason it was so difficult to come around on your slot was precisely because of how you treated me during the game.

I can take a beating in an argument. That doesn't bother me. What bothers me is that your go to move was to verbally abuse me for not seeing things the way you see them. That's never going to be a way to persuade somebody. Your replace out was the best thing you could have done for town as it allowed level-headed discussion to occur once more.

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Post Post #3475  (isolation #579)  » Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:05 pm

@Grendel - on re-read, when you said 'I have the feeling Prism is trying to pocket me' it really pinged me. You are part of why I was able to vote him. So kudos.

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Post Post #3485  (isolation #580)  » Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:44 pm

@Grendel- great criticism. Things like this are how I'll improve my town game. Thank you.

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Post Post #3488  (isolation #581)  » Thu Dec 15, 2016 3:04 pm

@BV What kinds of things can be AI lines of questioning?

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