Zoronos wrote:Oh man my first game in like a year.
Now I have to remember how to play.
eagerSnake wrote:Might as well tell you guys now I have the Ascetic modifier so don't waste actions on me.
Grendel wrote:Anybody up for some questions?
I've been finishing up a new set I want to use.
Grendel wrote:If its cool I'd like you all to leave me to analyze them,
eagerSnake wrote:Why aren't you voting me then? If you're going to try and push popular opinion in this light then vote me you scared child
Grendel wrote:Yes, I like to review the question results to see if I can divine some alignments. Why not contribute to the game with your answers?
Grendel wrote:I'm interested why you find my entrance poitenally scummy when you feel Zoronos is legitimately scummy. If you thought that Zorones was implying I'm scum then why was your initial reaction to my post, "well that's kinda scummy"? Sorry, but its weird that you'd have me as a tertiary scum read while your top scum is, in your opinion, also scum reading me. If you think he is scum, why do you think I am scum too?
Zoronos wrote:This is a decently analytical thought though for this point in the game. ++towniness.
Gamma wrote:Serious vote. He doesn't talk about LUV at all but then votes him. Trying to flashwagon are we?
Zoronos wrote:It seems like he's holding contradictory opinions and trying to justify them after the fact
nn wrote:Also, in 61 he gives a reason for snake being scummy. In 62 snake calls him out on it (why don't you vote me then?) and in 64 he goes on to ask Zoronos why he didn't follow up his scumread with a vote. He ends 64 by voting Zoronos.
Here's what the problem I have with that exchange - he doesn't vote anyone in 61 himself (which contradicts his line of questioning to Zoronos in 64). After snake calls him out in 62, he claims to have a "number of reasons" to not vote for snake (wut?) and then goes on to vote Zoronos.
nn wrote:Also, implosion went dark after leaving his vote on luv. It's been ~18 hours since he last posted
Gamma wrote:And it's not that I specifically townread LUV,
In post 161, Gamma Emerald wrote:LUV is town
In post 255, Gamma Emerald wrote:I'm sorry, did I say I townread you when I voted Zoronos? No I didn't.
In post 256, Gamma Emerald wrote:This feels like an extended explanation of a OMGUS vote.
nn wrote:Also that from 247 - 261 he addresses a significant number of issues, but ignores the ones I've raised with him.
Gamma wrote:Keep the shovel: makes it easier to tunnel.
Zoronos wrote:Gamma strikes me as the kind of person that likes to be 'technically correct'.
Zoronos wrote:This kind of play annoys me, however, I feel that it is less likely to come from scum because it's an inherently antagonistic stance. He didn't call me scum for thinking about Ascetic in terms of being like Miller since they were both negative utility; he just called me wrong and insinuated that I was bad.
boring wrote:Gamma is acting exactly like he did in our last game.
Grendel wrote:In your last game with him, how much ‘ethos’ did you carry? E.i. would it have been scary for Scum!Pengiun to 1v1 you in that situation?
Grendel wrote:Does anybody have some hypothetical scum teams cooked up?
I can't I.D. third scum for my scum team and want to hear some interactions people may have caught between people.
I think I felt a visceral lack of genuineness in PP's reactions in the other game I played with him. I feel none of that here.boring wrote:PenguinPower - Bad votes, reactions lack a feeling of authenticity, posts lacking substance, and dismissive in a way that I only see with scum.
Shadow wrote:Snake IS scum, he didn't claim ascetic, he claimed having ascetic modifier because that doesn't give him protection from being watched doing the kill etc.
On the other hand his read on Shadow is complete yuck and considering the thought that goes into most things I'm finding it hard to believe that this is the read getting the stamp of approval.
I really don't like the noncommittal read on Maria in #562
or the halfhearted opinion fishing on boring in #563.
#565's opinion on Gamma looks to me like either distancing from the wagon before it flips or fishing for a future derailment more than a real reconsideration.
In general I think noncommittal reads are more likely to come from scum. They're a good multitool-they're reads so nobody can complain about you not giving content, they're easy to justify ("I like X and it makes me lean town on them") or shrug off entirely, they're easy to go back on ("After thinking about X I guess it's not that big of a deal, on the other hand Y really makes me lean scum") in future days, and they serve as additional justification for narrowing your choice of votes.
On Implosion, I really should have linked Implosion's #562 over his #563 as better illustrating my point. It's entirely possible he has a read with weak reasoning as he states and wants other opinions. On the other hand, that isn't necessarily true, and his other posts make me think it isn't. I'm not buying what he's selling on Shadow and I'm not buying the paragraph of "tempted to scumread boring but I just don't know" while making sure to keep pushing Gamma.
Presumably, boring's reads make a lot of sense as town considering they're implosion's reads too. Yet, that isn't the implication here.
In post 801, Shadow_step wrote:In post 798, implosion wrote:Shadow wrote:Snake IS scum, he didn't claim ascetic, he claimed having ascetic modifier because that doesn't give him protection from being watched doing the kill etc.
He claimed an ascetic modifier rather than ascetic because he doesn't want scum to know that he isn't a power role... or because he's an ascetic power role and wants to claim honestly.
His play makes complete sense if he's town.
?????
Doesn't want scum to know he is a PR? What kind of town lies wtf
Ascetic PR is useless. If they want him to be unable to be protected by doc they would give him the machp modifier. What is the point of an ascetic PR and a town ascetic?
shadow wrote:Show me a game with 2 town ascetic and I *might* reconsider.
Macho is not a neg utility like ascetic so this doesn't apply.
In post 1037, boring wrote:@eager - I'm not sure you understand what buddying means. Most of what you posted was criticism. Also, why do you keep repeating that I'm happy about the conflict? I've been around for very little of this little scum theater.
@town? - eager has been coasting, and the only thing in the way of my gut scumlean was the fact that he had an uncc'd claim. A cc from an obvious town player was more than enough reason to vote him. Either way, how can so many of you accept eager's piss-poor "town" performance without resistance? I mean, eager has bragged twice now about how shitty town is playing by not calling him out for his lazy vote. You're all just taking the insult with pride, it would appear. The only positive thing I can say about this development is my wagon. It decreases the likelihood that eagerSnake, MariaR and implosion are ALL scum. I'll have to try to knock at least one out of the running.
If scum want to chainsaw me up to L-1, that's fine, but don't let them hammer without warning. I'll try to be back again tomorrow to check on things.
p-edit - S_s's play and tone were very aggressive early on.
In post 1133, Gamma Emerald wrote:In post 1118, Gamma Emerald wrote:I need further input.
I mentioned that Grendel's summary made me rethink some things. What I'm having issues dealing with is determining the motivation behind a certain play. This play is the "both are town" idea that Eager and Maria have suggested. Thing is, I've used this defense before...
...As scum. It's a great way to avoid getting trapped in a CC if it works. What I need to know is if this is something you agree is something scum would do. I'm feeling incredibly confused right now and this feedback will help.
@implosion and nn30
I want input on this.
Prism wrote:Why approach someone else's townread the same way I did if he thought such an approach "didn't merit a response".
Prism wrote:The first part is consistent with what boring's said throughout the game, with implosion specifically citing consistency as a towntell repeatedly throughout the game.
Prism wrote:The second part is just downright awful and a major stretch, and again I find it hard to believe that with the level of thought implosion tries to appear to put into the game, this is one of the ones getting his mental stamp of approval.
Prism wrote:Acting like I don't know consistency isn't necessarily a towntell has to be a joke. It really does.
Prism wrote:His description of how he views consistent internal thought process is exactly how boring's read on Eager was consistent.
Prism wrote:He explained in #802 that this was a reason for why he was unsure on his read on her, but this isn't true. Go look for yourself at the context he used it:
If you bothered to open an ISO, you'd see that I've been pretty clear about my feelings regarding eager's claim. That being, he was an uncc'd town claim, which left unchallenged, left him as a prime night kill target (because of the probably confirmed town status). As I also stated several times, if he lived to tomorrow, I'd re-evaluate. So for Day 1, uncc'd regardless of how untown he seemed, I didn't feel like I had much choice but to accept him as confirmed town.
I very much care if I'm wagoned. You may have missed it, but I said "the only good thing"... as a rule, when someone says "only", they mean just the one.
Zoronos wrote:Now, on Implosion. He's been thin all game; that is, my general impression is that he doesn't do a lot to try and steer the conversation. He comments on this, but doesn't push. I am suspicious of anyone willing to just float along.
boring wrote:So, rather than lynching scum (or at the very least learning from a town flip), you're suggesting we give them a free night kill, and start this mess up again tomorrow? We're better off lynching today. Even if it turns out to be me (though I'd hardly call that "plan A").
I made it pretty clear I found his idea scummy
So, rather than lynching scum (or at the very least learning from a town flip), you're suggesting we give them a free night kill, and start this mess up again tomorrow? We're better off lynching today. Even if it turns out to be me (though I'd hardly call that "plan A").
Shadow wrote:That's a weird kill.
Definitely made to frame boring.
Shadow wrote:Yes. But I haven't seen anything scummy from her to make me think she is scum. She believed my claim holy hell she must be mafia. No, it doesn't work like that.
Shadow wrote:I caused the day 1 mislynch?
Only scum should be disappointed after the day 1 lynch. If that had happened today or tomorrow. It would have been horrible for us.
Don't you dare tell me that you would have believed Eager's claim in my position.
@Prism - You were after implosion yesterday. His tunnel timing me seems less than a coincidence,
I was going to look more into boring since she is the leading wagon, but I feel like Snake is much scummier atm.
Well, I'll look into Boring too, but many of your posts have been down right manipulative.
If Snake does flip town I will advocate lynching boring tomorrow.
Yeah i'll look into boring. I was really hoping that Eager would be an open shut case, but I'm beginning to think its not.
In post 1581, Shadow_step wrote:Okay so we are in day 4 lylo, with both Eager and I alive. Who do you lynch ?
Scum believe claims more readily than town because they know that town generally don't have any motivation to lie.
Your reason to believe that we both were town ascetics was some what far fetched.
Zoronos wrote:However, he doesn't spend a lot of time actually prosecuting his scum read on Boring (that's where his vote was),
I think if I were to put my dissatisfaction with Implosion into words it'd be that so far today he has more energy into shaming shadow, and treating Eagar, and MariaR like martyrs then progressing the game state.
Zoronos wrote:Your definition of bad and my definition of scummy seem to overlap. Was my case wrong? Where was he scum hunting? Where was he making effort to solve the game rather than just parking his vote? Where did he explore Eager's alignment?
Zoronos wrote:If he had a towny early game, point those out.
The first post was largely projection, NAI, and tone.
The second and third posts were largely defensive, in my estimation. You were justifying your own play, not trying to either explore Boring, or convince other people to vote boring. Your third post is also more tone / playstyle stuff.
Personally, my rule is 'talk to people like they're town, talk about them like they're [alignment]', so attacking Boring on the basis of "Your tone doesn't match your read" when she's interacting with the person she has a read on is classic NAI, and is either bad play or outright scummy. Frankly, I think almost all 'tone' argument are scummy, so your reliance on them is disturbing.
Zoronos wrote:I already explained what the first link (219) is explicitly a scumtell. He's not attacking Grendel's method, he's attacking Grendel. It is an attack on credibility "First year pysch student" is how you set up the rest of the thread to ignore Grendel regardless of what Grendel says. That's very scummy.
Zoronos wrote:Your second reference (221) is strictly NAI. He's pointing out that his own meta has changed which... says nothing since it's an empty statement. Scum say it to avoid getting meta'ed (and because it's usually true) and town say it because it's true.
Zoronos wrote:At the time those interactions happened, PP was not under pressure. Grendel's vote was the first one on him. Discrediting an accuser who had just voted him would be pretty relevant to a scum game plan. The rest of your clear distills to 'meta', which I put no stock in. Show me why he's town in this game.
Zoronos wrote:Of course you're disagree with it because I'm using it to call you scummy. The first half of 1463 was a justification of your playstyle before you wandered into a tone argument.
Zoronos wrote:Reading 1295 again I think I was mistaken to call it defensive. It's just poor casing. You're quibbling about phrasing instead of exploring mindset, motivation, or intent.
Zoronos wrote:And that's my point - your personal rule and mine are different. However, you're hanging a case on it; you are using tone and manner-of-engagement as alignment indicating pillars. They're not, they vary depending on the style and mood of any given poster. That's why your case is bad. And bad cases built on NAI factors are scummy.
Also, I don't meta anyone - Meta is a waste of time and a one way trip to conf bias land.
So, if you want to help me lynch boring, cool, but I'd rather you do it with a case that isn't poop.
Dierfire wrote:You made the point (1068) that you don't see why boring would read eagerSnake as Town for the initial claim. I think that, from a probabilistic perspective, it makes more sense from a Town player claiming legitimately than from a Mafia player making a gamble (this is where I was after the initial claim). Whether that was a reason sufficient to justify the apparent strength of the read given by boring is a matter best answered by boring
boring wrote:So I have my POE on you, and my tilting on Shadow. Him being alive still, is questionable as well. Unless scum kept him alive as a potential mislynch. Of course, your post seems like exactly the thing scum would do if disappointed that their easy mislynch candidate is being ignored (i.e., trying to maneuver a tunnelee into a vote).
Zoronos wrote:Are you scum reading Boring / Dier here?
nn wrote:Yep. Scum.
Town would be attempting to work with me and get me on their side. Because. Ya know. We need to work together to find scum.
boring wrote:You guys are doing that thing again where you're projecting based on personality. Some people manipulate through cooperation, others, through hissy fits (AtE). Unless you guys know how Penguin plays, you have no way of knowing whether these weird tantrums are AI/NAI. Better to look at motivation.
Which brings us to why meta is important.
Zoronos wrote:But, can you talk to me about why you think PP is town? What are you seeing that I'm missing? Help me understand this one, because I can't get my head around a town PP here.
In post 1921, Shadow_step wrote:Also even if Gamma is telling the truth, implo isn't clear.
Town cop would imply at least one mafia role which is immune to cop. We already have 2 ascetics. Nexus is not normal. GF is blacklisted. Leaves a traitor.
In post 2171, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:Lynching me is basically throwing the game, we have it practically solved if we're still believing Gamma's claim and follow his plan he laid out.
In post 1467, podoboq wrote:
boring wrote:I think LUV has been lurky, beetlegeuse-ish, and unoriginal throughout the game. It's really easy to float to day 1 or day 2 in order to give your teammates something to bus, and that matches his behavior.
boring (5): eagerSnake, MariaR, implosion, Gamma Emerald, nn30
boring wrote:Implosion, as usual, you seem to be arguing semantics and personality in lieu of actual scum-hunting.
In post 2341, boring wrote:In post 2339, implosion wrote:Oh man, I didn't even see that boring described her own play as "hard bussing from day one." I'd love to hear a justification of how listing him as your fourth-strongest scumread, saying you'd be willing to settle for lynching him if you couldn't lynch eager, and then justifying that read further when asked about it amounts to "hard bussing" because I can't see anything else on d1 that you said about him.
I started suspecting him middle/end of day 1, and posted as much especially toward the end of the day. I'm not sure if you've noticed, but the end of a day isn't called a different day. You may have also noticed that I was V/LA half of day 1, and a leading wagon, so there was a bit of distractiin flying around.
In post 2378, Grendel wrote:The thing is though that I have witnessed enough games to recognizing risky D1 scum gambits.
In post 2470, Shadow_step wrote:In post 2469, implosion wrote:shadow continues to be the least helpful town i've literally ever seen... and i've played with katsuki before
Idk man. I don't really have much more to say. I guess the next thing I should do is justify why I still think nn is town. I'll do that tonight or tomorrow. But in terms of who I want to kill I cannot really see myself being convinced into anything other than boring at this point.
Bs
What do you want me to do?
In post 2472, Prism wrote:First, people have asked me my impression of PP-he's a lot less town than he used to be because it seems to me that he was very intentionally overdoing the brash behavior.
In post 2487, Shadow_step wrote:In post 2482, nn30 wrote:Hey Shadow, why don't you state your flip dippin case on me??!!
While you're at it, why don't you refute what Implosion and Prism have had to say, too?
cause of the way you pushed my lynch after my claim. It was beneficial to you as scum to get me lynched, after my flip you would have lynched eager because I cced him. 2 free mislynches.
DF's point about how you were the only unflipped town on the boring wagon.
POE
In post 2344, Shadow_step wrote:So one of [Diefire, Grendal, nn30]
I like you for scum out of these.
Shadow wrote:Cause I thought eager was scum then.
In post 2479, PenguinPower wrote:In post 2476, implosion wrote:if we don't massclaim zoronos dies tonight, it seems foolish to waste a possibly more-informed use of the jailkeeper tonight, etc. Theoretic worst case scenario is scum have a blocker and block whatever other active power we have I guess? but if scum have a blocker we're going to have another significant PR and we'll want to know about that. And also most importantly we're at the point where these claims will REALLY help PoE.
2nd time you've brought this up. I get the Zoronos bit; but, in a closed setup how is this going to benefit PoE? This is my first time playing one, so if you could explain that bit more.
In post 2505, nn30 wrote:In post 2504, Shadow_step wrote:In post 2500, nn30 wrote:Order for mass claim?
Sure. First at the top.
Boring/Grendel (can't decide who is the most scummy here)
PP
Diefire
Myself (since I'm still a point of contention for Shadow)
Zoronos
Prism
Implosion
What the heck??
How can you keep a cop cleared townie and someone else in the same bracket?
Is there a reason you're nitpicking this much?
There. I fixed it. Feel better now?
In post 2550, Prism wrote:@implosion: What do you think of his questions directed at LUV? The reason they're a big red flag for me is that they're a big chance for LUV to give content, presumably to show Grendel and others he's town or scum, but Grendel never follows up despite LUV's comprehensive answers to his rigorous questions.
I view it as highly likely they were asked for LUV's sake rather than Grendel's given their other interactions. I considered that the last line would be better for the scum PT but 1. It's just giving context to the questions and 2. We don't know how extensively scum is using their daychat.
In post 2646, PenguinPower wrote:In post 2643, nn30 wrote:@PP - Also, holy hell I'm glad you didn't leave me digging for breadcrumbs for too long. I would never have found that.
I didn't want anyone to find it. I wanted to use that as "proof" later on so that my investigations would be believed. Now we mass claimed, so may as well point to it.
Zoronos wrote:1) Breadcrumbs are dumb. I don't understand why people do them, and I further don't understand why anyone believes them. As the NN30 / Penguin interaction showed, that crumb would never have been found without it being pointed out, which makes it intrinsically useless since anyone could leave any number of similarly un-findable crumbs, and then point back to any arbitrary claim.
Zoronos wrote:
I have seen scum do this.
Maybe nobody on *this* board does it (or nobody you've seen), but I absolutely guarantee it happens and is very easy to do.
So. Practice reasonable skepticism and play the game in front of us.
Zoronos wrote:If you want me to even begin to agree with a Boring lynch, you should explain to me why in the presence of multiple 'easy' trains yesterday, she stayed locked on LUV.
She played anti-opportunistically. Why do that as scum and instead sit locked on for an unnecessary D2 bus?
It's really easy to float to day 1 or day 2 in order to give your teammates something to bus, and that matches his behavior.
In post 2664, Shadow_step wrote:In post 2657, nn30 wrote:@Implosion - the breadcrumb only implies planning. Scum could have thought ahead - I'm agreeing on the town read but don't rule this out.
Why else is PP town for you?
This is why I keep thinking you are scum. You just do surface level analysis and jump to conclusions.
Let's imagine PP is scum here, how many days do you think he can get away with? He has to say his night result everyday. There are 4 people he cannot investigate. Himself, implosion, zoro and me. One will get lynched today. That leaves 4 people. He can't pretend to have been RBed. He can't fake a guilty cause we can test his result. How does he explain him not getting killed at night?
Basically there is no way PP is scum.
boring wrote:Because again, why is this a thing worthy of " :/ "? If all the "lynch baits" can be established as conf. town, that's good news. That is, unless your "scum hunt" is just a hunt for easy mislynches.
Zoronos wrote:He could have easily floated another day before she had to leverage the bus play for town cred. She wasn't on the menu D2; she didn't need the extra time that a bus would buy.
I understand the value of mixed play; but pushing a team mate off the boat when there's no immediate threat just seems dumb. And so far Boring hasn't struck me as a dumb player.
implosion wrote:I honestly have a mental block right now where it's really just hard to see anyone other than boring/dier as scum.
How does priority work with jailkeeper and the NK? If Zoro chose the correct target, would he still die?
and while I hope Zoro jailed DF but the way he said "If boring flips a blocking role" does not inspire me with confidence that he didn't jail me or BV instead