Mini Normal #1838 - Game Over

[Shadow_step]

I have way, way too many scumreads right now: Implosion, boring, LUV, MariaR, Eager, and nn30. Of the bunch, I'd probably say Maria and boring are the ones least likely to be correct.

nn30's last 10 pages have been a trainwreck. He scumread Implosion, said:

I'm still wary of implosion. Since I'm not getting any traction with him at the moment, I'll drop it and see if I have anything to contribute to the other wagons occurring right now.

but dropped the ball entirely with the followup. I scumread Implosion, explained why, and called for more votes on him-one would imagine nn30 at least taking an interest in one of his top suspects. Instead nn30 didn't even read my post explaining my reads or who I wanted, even when prodded to do so. He never had an interest in who I wanted instead of Gamma/Penguin to begin with, and even less so after the top one was Implosion. Latching onto Gamma and now Shadow and launching all kinds of shit to see what sticks is not a town approach to the game whatsoever. His #690 is noticeably about volume in casework over quality and he admits it. Does anyone here seriously think that Shadow wants to get into a 1v1 Day 1 as scum in a game where town has minimum 2 mislynches? Finally

I'm the most obv town player here.

is a trademark scum post.

Moving on, I think either Eager is mafia or they're both town. Eager is playing this exactly how he should as scum, because there's really no way for him to come out of this alive unless he convinces everyone they're both town.I believe he's ascetic-I don't buy so much that he's a town one. Implosion being one of the ones pushing that eager isn't mafia for it really doesn't ease my mind.

In the meantime, Implosion, would you like to respond to my #591 and #599?

Right now, my vote on Implosion stays, I'd be willing to switch to nn30 if people would stop assuming the guy was town for no reason.

Finally someone posting something sensible!!

[Shadow_step]

Snake IS scum, he didn't claim ascetic, he claimed having ascetic modifier because that doesn't give him protection from being watched doing the kill etc.

He claimed an ascetic modifier rather than ascetic because he doesn't want scum to know that he isn't a power role... or because he's an ascetic power role and wants to claim honestly.

His play makes complete sense if he's town.

?????
Doesn't want scum to know he is a PR? What kind of town lies wtf
Ascetic PR is useless. If they want him to be unable to be protected by doc they would give him the machp modifier. What is the point of an ascetic PR and a town ascetic?

[implosion]

@Prism: I somewhat meant to respond to those but got sidetracked and somewhat didn't really feel like they merited response? I mean you didn't really explain why you thought I was scummy for the most part, you just kind of listed things you thought were scummy.

On the other hand his read on Shadow is complete yuck and considering the thought that goes into most things I'm finding it hard to believe that this is the read getting the stamp of approval.

No idea what you mean by this.

I really don't like the noncommittal read on Maria in #562

You don't like it because... townies are never unsure about things (hint: not the case)?

or the halfhearted opinion fishing on boring in #563.

You don't like it because... townies never seek advice when they're unsure about something (hint: not the case)?

#565's opinion on Gamma looks to me like either distancing from the wagon before it flips or fishing for a future derailment more than a real reconsideration.

I mean this I can kind of see? it's just wrong. I think almost everything he's done is pretty scummy but that was a reason to think he was town. I townhunt as much or more than I scumhunt, typically, so I'm looking a lot for things that I think are unlikely to come from scum or that indicate a consistent internal thought process that's motivated by trying to find scum.

I guess I didn't really read 599 after 592 but.

In general I think noncommittal reads are more likely to come from scum. They're a good multitool-they're reads so nobody can complain about you not giving content, they're easy to justify ("I like X and it makes me lean town on them") or shrug off entirely, they're easy to go back on ("After thinking about X I guess it's not that big of a deal, on the other hand Y really makes me lean scum") in future days, and they serve as additional justification for narrowing your choice of votes.

Sure. But I've also committed to tons of reads. Including reads that are quite divisive (townreading penguin). Do you want me to commit to a read on every single player in the game? I feel that's unreasonable. But I still feel like I should try to sort everyone in the game. I think it's silly to imply that I should be confident in every read I have and I feel like that's what you're implying here.

On Implosion, I really should have linked Implosion's #562 over his #563 as better illustrating my point. It's entirely possible he has a read with weak reasoning as he states and wants other opinions. On the other hand, that isn't necessarily true, and his other posts make me think it isn't. I'm not buying what he's selling on Shadow and I'm not buying the paragraph of "tempted to scumread boring but I just don't know" while making sure to keep pushing Gamma.

Here you go not explaining what you're referring to WRT my shadow read at all again.
And just saying you're not buying it, again, does not merit a response from me; i can't respond to you with anything more than "you're wrong" if you don't explain yourself. So. You're wrong.

Presumably, boring's reads make a lot of sense as town considering they're implosion's reads too. Yet, that isn't the implication here.

Yes, hence me not really being sure! Funny how the fact that parts of it made sense as coming from both town and scum, yet there being things that made me somewhat suspicious, led to me having an unconfident read!

[Prism]

What do you sr me for.

After ISOing you I really can't remember what I found wrong with the first 15 or so pages, it has more to do with me disliking your playstyle than anything but that really shouldn't factor into my mindset. Your push on boring/LUV is good.

The reaction to eager/Shadow is very 0-100 cavalier and leaves me wondering why you weren't doing this earlier if you had such a solid townblock in your mind minus Shadow. It reads very much as trying to take advantage of the chaos and it's your chance to take control of the game.

What do you think of my other reads, namely that on Implosion and nn30?

[Lil Uzi Vert]

I have way, way too many scumreads right now: Implosion, boring, LUV, MariaR, Eager, and nn30. Of the bunch, I'd probably say Maria and boring are the ones least likely to be correct.

nn30's last 10 pages have been a trainwreck. He scumread Implosion, said:

I'm still wary of implosion. Since I'm not getting any traction with him at the moment, I'll drop it and see if I have anything to contribute to the other wagons occurring right now.

but dropped the ball entirely with the followup. I scumread Implosion, explained why, and called for more votes on him-one would imagine nn30 at least taking an interest in one of his top suspects. Instead nn30 didn't even read my post explaining my reads or who I wanted, even when prodded to do so. He never had an interest in who I wanted instead of Gamma/Penguin to begin with, and even less so after the top one was Implosion. Latching onto Gamma and now Shadow and launching all kinds of shit to see what sticks is not a town approach to the game whatsoever. His #690 is noticeably about volume in casework over quality and he admits it. Does anyone here seriously think that Shadow wants to get into a 1v1 Day 1 as scum in a game where town has minimum 2 mislynches? Finally

I'm the most obv town player here.

is a trademark scum post.

Moving on, I think either Eager is mafia or they're both town. Eager is playing this exactly how he should as scum, because there's really no way for him to come out of this alive unless he convinces everyone they're both town. I believe he's ascetic-I don't buy so much that he's a town one. Implosion being one of the ones pushing that eager isn't mafia for it really doesn't ease my mind.

In the meantime, Implosion, would you like to respond to my #591 and #599?

Right now, my vote on Implosion stays, I'd be willing to switch to nn30 if people would stop assuming the guy was town for no reason.

What do you sr me for.

Why do you seem concerned about being scum read?

[implosion]

Snake IS scum, he didn't claim ascetic, he claimed having ascetic modifier because that doesn't give him protection from being watched doing the kill etc.

He claimed an ascetic modifier rather than ascetic because he doesn't want scum to know that he isn't a power role... or because he's an ascetic power role and wants to claim honestly.

His play makes complete sense if he's town.

?????
Doesn't want scum to know he is a PR? What kind of town lies wtf
Ascetic PR is useless. If they want him to be unable to be protected by doc they would give him the machp modifier. What is the point of an ascetic PR and a town ascetic?

oh my god dude

IT'S EXPLICITLY NOT A LIE. it's just not claiming his entire role. An ascetic PR makes sense if we have a doctor and an investigative role, or a watcher, or a tracker, or a neighborizer or FUCKING ANY OTHER POWER ROLE that targets him. Or maybe the scum have a rolecop and being ascetic means they can't figure out what he is. Or maybe since you're a town ascetic they chose to make him ascetic rather than macho to increase the symmetry of the setup.

Literally i can come up with reasons for like another ten minutes if you want to

[implosion]

Or scum have a roleblocker. Or town has a roleblocker and him being ascetic means that roleblocker doesn't interfere with his role.
Couple more likely ones.

[eagerSnake]

Ascetic PRs cannot be rolecopped or roleblocked.. its different than macho

[Zoronos]

investigating Eager's thought processes and opinions is the order of the day.

Sounds like fun. /s

Sounds like a huge waste of time

Maybe you could start by providing a read and a shred of reasoning instead of being lazy and flippant.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Implosion, didn't you state that you mostly have seen this sort of thing happened in large normal games? If so, I don't see how you're implying what you just presented. This is small to a medium sized game. Not really a large one which I assume would be 16+ players.

[Shadow_step]

No matter what anyone says we are only lynching eager today. I don't see two town ascetics at all.

[implosion]

The point isn't the game size, it's that it happens in normals. He's claiming that it's bastard; it's very simply not bastard to have a setup like that in a normal with this site's current meta.

In fact it's almost a point in favor of them both being town that podoboq, the mod, was one of the macho townies in that game; it seems likely that he saw that component of the setup design, liked it, and reinterpreted it for whatever setup we have here to get two town ascetics.

But the fact that the examples I can think of off the top of my head happen to be larges isn't important; what's important is that they're games that were judged normal on mafiascum.

[eagerSnake]

It applies because normal is normal and this is normal. 2 town both having ascetic is normal and can be balanced. Given, it is a hurdle town has to overcome, but overcoming it will nearly guarantee our victory.

[implosion]

shadow please fucking actually engage with the points I'm making.

I know this site's meta way, way better than you do. It's objective. It's not up for debate. It is a very simple truth that two town ascetics is completely possible. I don't care if you scumread him for other reasons. But please stop this line of argument. You're wrong about that point. He might be scum (i still don't think he is) but you are 100% wrong about that point.

[eagerSnake]

Yeah this site meta favors complexity

[eagerSnake]

If we don't overcome this, we will almost certainly lose.

[Shadow_step]

The point isn't the game size, it's that it happens in normals. He's claiming that it's bastard; it's very simply not bastard to have a setup like that in a normal with this site's current meta.

In fact it's almost a point in favor of them both being town that podoboq, the mod, was one of the macho townies in that game; it seems likely that he saw that component of the setup design, liked it, and reinterpreted it for whatever setup we have here to get two town ascetics.

But the fact that the examples I can think of off the top of my head happen to be larges isn't important; what's important is that they're games that were judged normal on mafiascum.

Show me a game with 2 town ascetic and I *might* reconsider.
Macho is not a neg utility like ascetic so this doesn't apply.

[Zoronos]

If we don't overcome this, we will almost certainly lose.

If you actually believe this, you should work to convince the undecided voters of the thread that it's true and you're town.
I am willing to entertain the position, but you have to work with me to do that. That means playing along with my question, even if you think it's stupid.
So how about it?

[Zoronos]

Holy fuck I don't care about site meta.
Or personal meta.
Just play the fucking game in front of us.

[Shadow_step]

And I mean a mini normal game.

[eagerSnake]

If we don't overcome this, we will almost certainly lose.

If you actually believe this, you should work to convince the undecided voters of the thread that it's true and you're town.
I am willing to entertain the position, but you have to work with me to do that. That means playing along with my question, even if you think it's stupid.
So how about it?

It's 3:30am and I haven't even begun to make any cases this game so I have literally nothing prepared at this time, unfortunately. Wish I could give you more than the fact I've been parked on boring all game and scum haven't even taken a nibble at it, so that also makes it more likely boring is scum

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Yeah I'm actually in agreement with Shadow here, if you guys can show at least two to three examples of that happening in a mini, that would go a long way into putting this to bed for now. Since from my understanding, both Implosion and Snake are implying that the average player on this site would be to able to play optimally in such a setup.

[Zoronos]

If we don't overcome this, we will almost certainly lose.

If you actually believe this, you should work to convince the undecided voters of the thread that it's true and you're town.
I am willing to entertain the position, but you have to work with me to do that. That means playing along with my question, even if you think it's stupid.
So how about it?

It's 3:30am and I haven't even begun to make any cases this game so I have literally nothing prepared at this time, unfortunately. Wish I could give you more than the fact I've been parked on boring all game and scum haven't even taken a nibble at it, so that also makes it more likely boring is scum

Well then maybe you should get off your ass and do some work to solve.
We can pick this up tomorrow (it's 3:30 here too, so)

[implosion]

Show me a game with 2 town ascetic and I *might* reconsider.
Macho is not a neg utility like ascetic so this doesn't apply.

Three things.

One, please take a step back for a moment. The fact that you're saying you *might* reconsider if I show you very direct proof that you are wrong means you are being way too goddamn stubborn right now.
Two, there's a first time for everything. I'm not going to look through a thousand mini normals to find a game that has precisely two ascetics; it quite possibly hasn't happened, I have no idea if it has. That, again, does not make it bastard.
Three, ...what? Macho is straight-up a negative utility role. It's probably the single closest modifier to ascetic.

And @zoronos, site meta is very important when shadow's primary line of thought is "X would be bastard on this site, and this is a normal game, therefore X cannot be happening in this game." The first premise is flawed because he doesn't understand site meta.

[implosion]

It's not a super common occurrence to put two "counterclaiming" roles in a setup together and I'm not claiming it is. But (1) it happens and (2) podoboq having been in a game with an incredibly similar setup quirk and having had macho townie as his role in that game is about as good of circumstantial evidence as you can get that it could be happening here.