Mini Normal #1838 - Game Over

MariaR
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Post Post #1200  (ISO)  » Tue Oct 11, 2016 7:04 pm

Either i'm a moron (and that's what I hope) or yall are morons (and that's what I think is happening)
I bet Maria is scum this game~Firebringer
Na Maria isn't towny enough to be scum this game~ Charloux

Wanna know more about Maria? Click here!

eagerSnake
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Post Post #1201  (ISO)  » Tue Oct 11, 2016 7:05 pm

Despite the fact I'm town I think it might be fine

podoboq
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Post Post #1202  (ISO)  » Tue Oct 11, 2016 7:09 pm

Official Vote Count 1.28
LynchingWith 13 votes in play, it takes 7 to lynch.

eagerSnake (6): Shadow_step, boring, PenguinPower, Grendel, Gamma Emerald, Prism
boring (4): eagerSnake, MariaR, implosion, nn30
PenguinPower (1): Dierfire
Shadow_step (1): Lil Uzi Vert

Not Voting (1): Zoronos


V/LA: none

Deadline: (expired on 2016-10-18 15:22:00)
Currently looking for reviewers, a backup mod, and a flavor writer for a Magic: the Gathering flavored Large Theme. PM if interested.

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Post Post #1203  (ISO)  » Tue Oct 11, 2016 7:10 pm

Well, Eager, you're at -1 and probably want to claim.

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Post Post #1204  (ISO)  » Tue Oct 11, 2016 7:11 pm

In post 1201, eagerSnake wrote:Despite the fact I'm town I think it might be fine

What do you mean by this?
Get to know an Emerald! ~Likely to be off during evenings (Eastern Time)~
It’s maaagic.
i would unironically put mafia loyal vigs in games for the record - Acidphoenix

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Post Post #1205  (ISO)  » Tue Oct 11, 2016 7:11 pm

You claiming intent?

Zoronos
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Post Post #1206  (ISO)  » Tue Oct 11, 2016 7:14 pm

In post 1088, Grendel wrote:UNVOTE:

VOTE: EagerSnake

I was going to look more into boring since she is the leading wagon, but I feel like Snake is much scummier atm.

In post 1094, Grendel wrote:
In post 1091, eagerSnake wrote:Hey. Grendel. I'm actually town but nice wallpost


Well, I'll look into Boring too, but many of your posts have been down right manipulative.

Playing into unknowing majority's fear is a really scum oriented strategy.


So, Grendel, you said you'd look into Boring. What did you come up with?

(I read back over the ISO like I said, I see the pivot point onto Eager from his previous Eager-Town, Boring-Suspicious stance. Not entirely convinced by it, but let's run this line of questioning and see where we go)

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Post Post #1207  (ISO)  » Tue Oct 11, 2016 7:15 pm

In post 1205, eagerSnake wrote:You claiming intent?


I am not yet claiming intent, I have more scum hunting to do.

However, in like 2/3 of the games I have played on this board people YOLO hammer without stating intent.

boring
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Post Post #1208  (ISO)  » Tue Oct 11, 2016 7:16 pm

In post 1167, Gamma Emerald wrote:Boring I'd like your input on what I said about Eager and Maria(now including Implosion!) argued(the duplicate town roles thing).


I addressed this at the end of post #1165.
In post 1181, Zoronos wrote:@boring
Anyway, here's my take on your play so far:
You've been in the middle of two trains - PP and Eager. Never the head of either - the player leading the charge for the lynch. While you were on PP, you didn't talk about him much at all or advocate for that train to move forwards. You mostly seemed to be talking to Grendel. (I kind of liked your evaluation of Grendel's conciliatory post to Gamma, actually ).
However that suspicion also never seemed to get pushed based the suspicion phase.

At the time of the CC, you had Eager as your number 2 town read, after SS at number one. That suggests, to me, that you didn't have a lot of skepticism about his claim. Furthermore, I find "He survived the night, he must be scum" to be a really awful way to evaluate PR's (since it depends on the playstyle of the scum team on whether they are risk averse or not, which is hidden information). It makes it really easy for scum to try to lynch PR's by building up mistrust.

So, when you immediately flipped on him as soon as the CC happens, that seems scummy to me. You didn't take the time to re-evaluate the read or look for other indications on whether he was scummy. Just 'Oh counterclaim yup top scum' and a vote. There wasn't evidence of skepticism or evaluation. If someone counterclaims one of my top town reads, I am always going to try and think carefully about why my town read might have been wrong, or if something else is afoot.

So, I don't think you've done a lot of active scum hunting, haven't been an evangelist for the trains you've been on, and I question your sudden certainty on Eager-scum. Those things add up to my gut thinking you're playing a happy coincidence of two town having the same role modifier, and you get a free mislynch.
However, the logical case hasn't caught up to my gut and I am wary of just interpreting events into conf-bias land. So I'm not entirely convinced that you're the villain quite yet - at least not until we've had a chance to chat a bit more.


My read on you was a shot in the dark, based off the oddness I picked up. I've gone back through the thread to re-read since then, and I noticed you mentioning your friend. Something I missed my first time around, which would easily exacerbate the disconnect I was picking up at first. As your posts normalized, and I could see that you weren't adjusting your behavior to suit my scumread, I lost interest in your wagon. Even at the time of my vote, I'd have been more suspicious of a flash wagon than your behavior.

Then, I noticed PP being reactive, dismissive, and disingenuous, so I hopped onto his wagon with S_s. I did argue when people got off his wagon:
In post 616, boring wrote:
In post 609, PenguinPower wrote:We should definitely lynch Gamma. Not me.
I'm having a hard time understanding why people hopped off this wagon.

In post 622, boring wrote:
In post 614, Prism wrote:I don't think Penguin is undeinably rocksolid town but comparing him to people like Implosion, boring, LUV, Gamma, Maria, or even Grendel he might as well be the Pope.

How on earth is PP less scummy than me? Do you have any decent reasons? Or is it just that I actually bothered to elaborate on my Zoro read like ten pages ago?

Either way, it's lovely to know that someone who apparently exists solely to swipe at low-hanging fruit is totally cool with you.


And then I admit that I was distracted by Grendel, with what I thought might have been a scum-slip (certainly worth attention in my mind).

Then the CC happened and I was more than willing to vote eager, who would have been a scum lean at the very least had he not been sitting on an uncc'd claim to a conf.town position.

If I haven't played perfect town, I apologize. But to be perfectly honest here, I don't have very much town play time under my belt. Especially not on this site with this site's meta. It's easier to just be what town wants than to actually try to solve the game not knowing who's who. Let alone dealing with any further complications.

In post 1191, nn30 wrote:
In post 476, boring wrote:
Shadow_step - Has an aggressive town persona. A hint of grandiosity. I haven't seen this behavior before with scum.


@Boring - please explain this read on SS.

Okay, well, here's practically his whole ISO before my read list.

Spoiler:
In post 9, Shadow_step wrote:VOTE: LUV

This is a scum PR we need to get riD of ASAP.

In post 121, Shadow_step wrote:This game just got easy .

In post 122, Shadow_step wrote:Kidding lol

Hello eager, do you have any early reads?

Anyone else can also answer this.

In post 124, Shadow_step wrote:
In post 43, Grendel wrote:
boring wrote:
In post 36, Grendel wrote:@Boring You don't even have a witty one-liner to go with your vote... that's really... boring...

You say that like it's a bad thing. :nerd:


I like it when people make Beowulf jokes. Do you not like people referencing your name in jokes?

QUESTIONS FOR EVERYBODY

1) What is your preferred alignment?

2) Are you often mislynched? If so, why is that?

3) Can you describe your play style concisely in one sentence?

4) If you were the deciding vote at lylo with the slot above you, and the slot below you, which player would you lynch and why? (Ex: 1 would be deciding between 13, and 2. 2 would be deciding between 1 and 3. 3 would decide between 2 and 4.)

5) How excited are you for this game?

Gamma Emerald wrote:Nah Eager is lame, you're the one I want to see in action!

What am I? Chopped liver?


1. Mafia, cause I love the wifom. But I probably play better as town.

2. I'm not often mislynched. Occasionally might be a better word.

3. I'm a good analyser and gut reader. My reads are generally good but I have a hard time convincing town that X is scum[Hint-that person is actually scum](Ask Maria).

4. Probably the one below me.

5. 7/10

In post 125, Shadow_step wrote:Grendel, you mind answering your own questions?

Also I think LUV is scum and everyone should be voting there.

In post 128, Shadow_step wrote:Naked voting is Pro scum. ^

In post 135, Shadow_step wrote:
In post 134, boring wrote:
In post 128, Shadow_step wrote:Naked voting is Pro scum. ^

Why would an RVS vote accompanied by "baaa..." or "hello" be more defensible than a naked vote?


It isn't, unfortunately I only have one vote.

In post 139, Shadow_step wrote:
In post 136, PenguinPower wrote:2.) Never been mislynched. Come close several times, but never.


Seriously?

In post 143, Shadow_step wrote:
In post 140, boring wrote:We've too many players who fall into your "unacceptable RVS vote" category for them all to be scum. How'd you come to the conclusion that this one in particular is scum?

Also, what do you think of Implosion sheeping you with what amounts to a naked vote?


gut
Why, do you have a problem with my push?

I don't care about Implosion as long as he helps me lynch scum.

In post 152, Shadow_step wrote:Cool, you wanna answer my question?

In post 166, Shadow_step wrote:Looks like LUV has been advised to play dumb and play newb like.
Needs death.

In post 168, Shadow_step wrote:
In post 20, PenguinPower wrote:
In post 19, Gamma Emerald wrote:How is it negative? Doesn't it make you immune to nightkills?


No: Ascetic


So, do you believe eagersnake?
What is your current read on him?

In post 169, Shadow_step wrote:Actually I wouldn't mind if everyone answers this ^

I personally think Eager could have waited a bit and tried ti develop some reads before outing that he is ascetic. More info to be gained from reactions after that.

In post 210, Shadow_step wrote:
In post 208, Zoronos wrote:Shadowstep, sorry. My mistake.

What is your opinion on Grendel, since it sounds like you know him better?


I've only played with PP, eager and Maria before. So I'm not familiar with Grendel.
From my exp, scum are more awkward during RVS, and RQS is more or less NAI.
I'm currently leaning null town on him.

In post 263, Shadow_step wrote:
In post 174, PenguinPower wrote:
In post 168, Shadow_step wrote:So, do you believe eagersnake?


Have no reason not to at this point. How about you?

In post 168, Shadow_step wrote:What is your current read on him?


Null. Yours?


This is a very safe stance
How can you believe him and not town read him even if slightly ?

Like mafia ascetic is very strong modifier for mafia, unless you believe that town would have those many PRs to counter that.
Hence you null read him. But I doubt you would have thought that much.

In post 265, Shadow_step wrote:He does stuff after he's prompted to do it.
My read hasn't changed on him.

In post 267, Shadow_step wrote:@Dier, I'm waiting for those walls man.

@mod, can we have a replacement for Slandaar if he is town and a modkill if he is mafia? K thanks :P

In post 270, Shadow_step wrote:Good this should be an easy game. I have a couple of town reads too.
Need to hear more from Slandaar/Maria/Diet to sort them out.

In post 279, Shadow_step wrote:
In post 276, eagerSnake wrote:There's a scum who is intent on breaching the town block /note


Elaborate.

In post 280, Shadow_step wrote:@Boring, since you are around, what is you read on Eager atm, regarding his claim and stuff?

In post 296, Shadow_step wrote:
In post 280, Shadow_step wrote:@Boring, since you are around, what is you read on Eager atm, regarding his claim and stuff?


Maria, same question.

In post 297, Shadow_step wrote:Gamma I really think your Zoronos vote is terrible. What is your case against him?
I think there are better places to put your vote, like PP.

In post 305, Shadow_step wrote:@Zoro, let's wagon Penguin.
There seems to be more potential in this.

VOTE: PP

In post 343, Shadow_step wrote:
In post 329, boring wrote:Gamma is acting exactly like he did in our last game. I tunnelled him for it because he's easy to mislynch. I'm also doubting my scum read on Zoronos. He's just barrelled on without a single adjustment to his behavior. It's not something I'd expect from someone I'm scum-reading for being fake. They're each either cleverer at playing scum than I'm willing to entertain at the moment, or they're not scum.

UNVOTE:


Join me on Penguin please.

He nicely ignored my question.

In post 344, Shadow_step wrote:
In post 336, Gamma Emerald wrote:
In post 335, PenguinPower wrote:
In post 332, Gamma Emerald wrote:Yeah implosion is town.


So:

Won't read LUV = scum > Will read LUV later = leantown > Still hasn't read/posted about, but post stuff about PP = town.

Dude...seriously.

I'm actually done with LUV for now.

VOTE: Gamma

The fact that so many people townread me and yet he doesn't makes him Town.


This is a fallacy, scum will try to get people who are town read by the majority --> lynched
Especially PP's reply to your comment is terrible. He scum reads you and is okay with you town reading him. He doesn't accuse you or buddying.

In post 371, Shadow_step wrote:Flail scum flail

In post 374, Shadow_step wrote:
In post 366, nn30 wrote:
In post 128, Shadow_step wrote:Naked voting is Pro scum. ^


In post 363, Shadow_step wrote:VOTE: Pp


Dude...

Why would it be directed to you ? Are you scum?

In post 397, Shadow_step wrote:Like nn30 is ob town after that. Unless he is a very good scum player. I'll have to check his games to make sure.

@nn I was already voting PP and I had given reasons to vote him.

In post 399, Shadow_step wrote:I would call Maria prob town but she is so good at faking town reactions I'm not gonna town read her for this.

In post 400, Shadow_step wrote:
In post 398, MariaR wrote:N30 has been obv town since the start of this.

The fact gamma isn't obv town when I've obv town read him before is worrying

the LUV townreads make me laugh.

I'm gonna look more into a few players that don't need names but with the amount of people I am slowly going like "you can be town" these players are....


If penguin is scum, LUV is town.
I do agree on that town reading LUV is kinda dumb.

In post 401, Shadow_step wrote:@Eager what did you learn from that hammer?
What are you current reads?
Even a readlist with one line explanations would be fine.

In post 415, Shadow_step wrote:@eager stop ignoring my questions.


If it needs further explanation, I can summarize:
He's been unflinching in pursuing his scum reads, and doesn't hesitate to push forward with them. He isn't exactly being polite about it either. He doesn't seem to care about gaining buddies, being likeable, or developing sympathy [aggressive town persona]. He also very clearly believes that his own reads and opinions are right, and when compared to others, others must be wrong [hint of grandiosity].

boring
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Post Post #1209  (ISO)  » Tue Oct 11, 2016 7:17 pm

Sorry about my spacing in that post.

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Post Post #1210  (ISO)  » Tue Oct 11, 2016 7:20 pm

From what I see, what you saw in Shadow was powertown play.
That's totally something scum never does. /s
Get to know an Emerald! ~Likely to be off during evenings (Eastern Time)~
It’s maaagic.
i would unironically put mafia loyal vigs in games for the record - Acidphoenix

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Post Post #1211  (ISO)  » Tue Oct 11, 2016 7:26 pm

I'm still selling Implosion votes on the cheap if anyone wants to buy, it's a great product, the R&D team really came through, we just need some marketing and consumer awareness to really get the boost we need.

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Post Post #1212  (ISO)  » Tue Oct 11, 2016 7:27 pm

VOTE: implosion

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Post Post #1213  (ISO)  » Tue Oct 11, 2016 7:29 pm

Do you still want votes on implosion now that I'm voting him?

boring
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Post Post #1214  (ISO)  » Tue Oct 11, 2016 7:31 pm

In post 1210, Gamma Emerald wrote:From what I see, what you saw in Shadow was powertown play.
That's totally something scum never does. /s

I've never seen it like that. Not without softening the edges to avoid animosity and OMGUS.

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Post Post #1215  (ISO)  » Tue Oct 11, 2016 7:32 pm

Holy Penguins! Snake flailing.

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Post Post #1216  (ISO)  » Tue Oct 11, 2016 7:33 pm

In post 1214, boring wrote:
In post 1210, Gamma Emerald wrote:From what I see, what you saw in Shadow was powertown play.
That's totally something scum never does. /s

I've never seen it like that. Not without softening the edges to avoid animosity and OMGUS.

First time Zachstralkita played with scum!Transcend, Transcend used that strategy.
Get to know an Emerald! ~Likely to be off during evenings (Eastern Time)~
It’s maaagic.
i would unironically put mafia loyal vigs in games for the record - Acidphoenix

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Post Post #1217  (ISO)  » Tue Oct 11, 2016 7:33 pm

I'm not flailing?...

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Post Post #1218  (ISO)  » Tue Oct 11, 2016 7:34 pm

I don't like the Eager wagon.

As someone else stated, it makes no sense that a scum!Eager_Snake would claim ascetic day one.

If he's actually ascetic he holds onto that forever. Town can't probe him in the night? Awesome.

I'm unhappy to be admitting this, but Eager's logic that a scum!Shadow would have no reason to CC makes sense.

To my eye, he's been acting like unhappy/frustrated town the whole time. His play is consistent with his completed town games (very bold, doesn't care if he dies for the team). He was much more timid in his completed scum game.

I'm going to take a moment to put together the whole case on Boring... in the mean time I hope Snake isn't hammered.

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Post Post #1219  (ISO)  » Tue Oct 11, 2016 7:35 pm

Anyone on eagers wagon who can answer this:

Why does scum eager claim day 1 when he'd be the most powerful maf role?

Why does scum eager claim day 1 when he'd be the most powerful maf role?

Why does scum eager claim day 1 when he'd be the most powerful maf role?

Why does scum eager claim day 1 when he'd be the most powerful maf role?

Why does scum eager claim day 1 when he'd be the most powerful maf role?
I bet Maria is scum this game~Firebringer
Na Maria isn't towny enough to be scum this game~ Charloux

Wanna know more about Maria? Click here!

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Post Post #1220  (ISO)  » Tue Oct 11, 2016 7:36 pm

Prism wrote:Why approach someone else's townread the same way I did if he thought such an approach "didn't merit a response".

Not sure what you mean by this; when I said your earlier post didn't merit a response, I mean in the way that it wouldn't merit a response from you if I said "Prism is so scummy, vote: prism". It doesn't merit a response if there are no specific points to respond to.
Prism wrote:The first part is consistent with what boring's said throughout the game, with implosion specifically citing consistency as a towntell repeatedly throughout the game.

Consistency is a towntell in an extremely specific way and although I'm not going to ISO myself you should see that if you look at how I use it; consistency is a towntell insofar as it indicates that a person has an internally consistent set of reads. Consistency on its own isn't always a tell. Experienced players will be consistent almost always, and many players will have some inconsistencies in what they say as their reads change or they forget about minor things they noticed earlier. The main time I remember citing consistency earlier was in criticizing gamma for being inconsistent about a major read (or at least what seemed like a major read) over the span of <24 hours, which indicated a lack of a consistent internal thought process. Consistency in general is not indicative of town.
Prism wrote:The second part is just downright awful and a major stretch, and again I find it hard to believe that with the level of thought implosion tries to appear to put into the game, this is one of the ones getting his mental stamp of approval.

Golly, you sure do know a lot about the way that I think about the game of mafia for having met me like two days ago :|
Also there's more of that non-specificity you seem so fond of... you're essentially saying "this is bad" and leaving it at that.

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Post Post #1221  (ISO)  » Tue Oct 11, 2016 7:36 pm

In post 1219, MariaR wrote:Anyone on eagers wagon who can answer this:

Why does scum eager claim day 1 when he'd be the most powerful maf role?

Why does scum eager claim day 1 when he'd be the most powerful maf role?

Why does scum eager claim day 1 when he'd be the most powerful maf role?

Why does scum eager claim day 1 when he'd be the most powerful maf role?

Why does scum eager claim day 1 when he'd be the most powerful maf role?

Could be faking ascetic.
Get to know an Emerald! ~Likely to be off during evenings (Eastern Time)~
It’s maaagic.
i would unironically put mafia loyal vigs in games for the record - Acidphoenix

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Post Post #1222  (ISO)  » Tue Oct 11, 2016 7:39 pm

In post 1221, Gamma Emerald wrote:
In post 1219, MariaR wrote:Anyone on eagers wagon who can answer this:

Why does scum eager claim day 1 when he'd be the most powerful maf role?

Why does scum eager claim day 1 when he'd be the most powerful maf role?

Why does scum eager claim day 1 when he'd be the most powerful maf role?

Why does scum eager claim day 1 when he'd be the most powerful maf role?

Why does scum eager claim day 1 when he'd be the most powerful maf role?

Could be faking ascetic.


Could be, but less likely than him actually just being ascetic.

Assuming he's fake claiming at the start of day one is a stretch, especially for someone who's only been on the site a few months.

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Post Post #1223  (ISO)  » Tue Oct 11, 2016 7:39 pm

@Boring

I don't see as evidence of pushing the PP lynch; indeed it struck me as quite scummy. You weren't making a case for PP to be scum; you were saying "Why me why not X?"
That's not attempting to push the PP lynch, that's contesting a vote on yourself, imo.

Anyway, I don't come from this forum and basically don't play here, so I have no involvement in this place's meta. All I look for is effort to solve. And I'm not seeing a lot of it.

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Post Post #1224  (ISO)  » Tue Oct 11, 2016 7:42 pm

In post 1214, boring wrote:I've never seen it like that. Not without softening the edges to avoid animosity and OMGUS.


I have absolutely seen it, but usually not with this level of premeditation for the counterclaim.

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