Mini Normal #1838 - Game Over

[Grendel]

I'm really afraid I don't have the time to read up on anyone tonight.

I have a big project due in a couple days that I've only just started. Sorry.

Pre-edit

If I didn't think you were scum...yeah. Still want eager to flip.

I figured this would be the case, but did it anyway to see your response.
No real read change, but I've decided that you cannot be scum if Dier is town. What scum would reject an offer like that?

I thought you viewed mutually exclusive relationships as pro-scum.

What do you mean by mutually exclusive relationships, and when did I say that?

I mean you are living in a world were it has to be Town/scum, not town/town, or scum/scum.

I seem to recalled you thought that it was a great way for scum to "set up lynches". Scum call these two lynches Town/scum, and when the first flips town they can move onto the other because, "they both can't be town".

Wasn't those your words in the newbie we played together? Wasn't that the whole reason you investigated me back then?

[Gamma Emerald]

Gamma why not boring?

Why aren't you voting her yourself if you said this?

[podoboq]

Official Vote Count 1.30

Lynching

With 13 votes in play, it takes 7 to lynch.

boring (4): MariaR, implosion, nn30, Gamma Emerald
eagerSnake (3): Shadow_step, boring, PenguinPower
implosion (2): eagerSnake, Prism
PenguinPower (1): Dierfire
Shadow_step (1): Lil Uzi Vert

Not Voting (2): Zoronos, Grendel

V/LA: none

Deadline: (expired on 2016-10-18 15:22:00)

[Gamma Emerald]

I'm really afraid I don't have the time to read up on anyone tonight.

I have a big project due in a couple days that I've only just started. Sorry.

Pre-edit

If I didn't think you were scum...yeah. Still want eager to flip.

I figured this would be the case, but did it anyway to see your response.
No real read change, but I've decided that you cannot be scum if Dier is town. What scum would reject an offer like that?

I thought you viewed mutually exclusive relationships as pro-scum.

What do you mean by mutually exclusive relationships, and when did I say that?

I mean you are living in a world were it has to be Town/scum, not town/town, or scum/scum.

I seem to recalled you thought that it was a great way for scum to "set up lynches". Scum call these two lynches Town/scum, and when the first flips town they can move onto the other because, "they both can't be town".

Wasn't those your words in the newbie we played together? Wasn't that the whole reason you investigated me back then?

I'm only saying it can't be scum!PP and town!Dier.
And I investigated you because I figured you would be strong in LYLO.

[eagerSnake]

Isn't it an odd behavior to vote the person your top scumread is voting?

[Gamma Emerald]

Isn't it an odd behavior to vote the person your top scumread is voting?

Who are the people referred to in this statement?

[eagerSnake]

You were ready to lynch me, and I was ready to lynch boring, now you are ready to lynch boring.

Also Prism was ready to lynch me, and I voted implosion, and then Prism voted implosion as well.

Isn't that an odd behavior to vote the person your top scumread is voting?

[Gamma Emerald]

You were ready to lynch me, and I was ready to lynch boring, now you are ready to lynch boring.

Also Prism was ready to lynch me, and I voted implosion, and then Prism voted implosion as well.

Isn't that an odd behavior to vote the person your top scumread is voting?

I said that you had done some good scumhunting.
How does that not equal scumreading you less?
And would you prefer I vote you instead?

[nn30]

You were ready to lynch me, and I was ready to lynch boring, now you are ready to lynch boring.

Also Prism was ready to lynch me, and I voted implosion, and then Prism voted implosion as well.

Isn't that an odd behavior to vote the person your top scumread is voting?

I said that you had done some good scumhunting.
How does that not equal scumreading you less?
And would you prefer I vote you instead?

Eager is now actively scumhunting - except the target is you (and Prism).

This bothers you for... reasons?

My Gamma scum read from earlier is coming back.

[nn30]

You were ready to lynch me, and I was ready to lynch boring, now you are ready to lynch boring.

Also Prism was ready to lynch me, and I voted implosion, and then Prism voted implosion as well.

Isn't that an odd behavior to vote the person your top scumread is voting?

I said that you had done some good scumhunting.
How does that not equal scumreading you less?
And would you prefer I vote you instead?

Eager is now actively scumhunting - except the target is you (and Prism).

This bothers you for... reasons?

My Gamma scum read from earlier is coming back.

[eagerSnake]

@What are your thoughts on implosion and Prism?

[Gamma Emerald]

You were ready to lynch me, and I was ready to lynch boring, now you are ready to lynch boring.

Also Prism was ready to lynch me, and I voted implosion, and then Prism voted implosion as well.

Isn't that an odd behavior to vote the person your top scumread is voting?

I said that you had done some good scumhunting.
How does that not equal scumreading you less?
And would you prefer I vote you instead?

Eager is now actively scumhunting - except the target is you (and Prism).

This bothers you for... reasons?

My Gamma scum read from earlier is coming back.

I said that he was scumhunting because he posted the wagon analysis.

[nn30]

@gamma - Yeah, and now he's applying logic (scumhunting) to the actions of others (which includes you).

[Gamma Emerald]

@gamma - Yeah, and now he's applying logic (scumhunting) to the actions of others (which includes you).

I never said it bothered me.

[eagerSnake]

@Gamma What are your thoughts on implosion and Prism?

EBWOP

[Gamma Emerald]

@Gamma What are your thoughts on implosion and Prism?

EBWOP

I really don't know rn, will ISO them.

[Gamma Emerald]

I'm townreading both Implosion and Prism, Implosion for his early game actions, and Prism for his conviction on his Implosion read.

[nn30]

@gamma - Yeah, and now he's applying logic (scumhunting) to the actions of others (which includes you).

I never said it bothered me.

It read that way.

[implosion]

I actually phrased that a little poorly. When I say an "internally consistent set of reads," essentially, what I mean is that they're a set of reads that, in a sense, actually exist. A set of reads that are actual opinions that the actual person has about things that have happened and what alignments people are based on those things, rather than opinions that were manufactured and that they're simply trying to keep straight "externally" in the sense that they're not things that they actually really believe.

Acting like I don't know consistency isn't necessarily a towntell has to be a joke. It really does.

You're misunderstanding me... it sounded based on what you said that you believed that *I* thought that consistency is necessarily a towntell. I'm trying to clear that misunderstanding.

His description of how he views consistent internal thought process is exactly how boring's read on Eager was consistent.

This is subjective, not objective. The degree to which a consistent sequence of stated thoughts indicates that someone is actually genuinely thinking about alignments is, like almost all good indicators of alignment, almost entirely subjective. So I simply disagree.

He explained in #802 that this was a reason for why he was unsure on his read on her, but this isn't true. Go look for yourself at the context he used it:

That post was pretty much train of thought; I didn't say literally everything that I thought about it. I didn't mention that her reads being similar to mine was a particular reason for me to be uncertain because I was basically spending my thought in 562 trying to figure out what about her post it was that I found scummy.

[eagerSnake]

VOTE: Unvote

For now to see where things go

[implosion]

Anyway, to finally get around to boring...

If you bothered to open an ISO, you'd see that I've been pretty clear about my feelings regarding eager's claim. That being, he was an uncc'd town claim, which left unchallenged, left him as a prime night kill target (because of the probably confirmed town status). As I also stated several times, if he lived to tomorrow, I'd re-evaluate. So for Day 1, uncc'd regardless of how untown he seemed, I didn't feel like I had much choice but to accept him as confirmed town.

This isn't the point I was making. This is actually just a non-sequitur to the point I was making. I just straight-up don't believe that the ascetic claim from snake would have as big of an impact on your read of him as you're implying that it did. You continuing to just call him "uncced" as if that means anything real when his claim is just an ascetic continues to further this.

I very much care if I'm wagoned. You may have missed it, but I said "the only good thing"... as a rule, when someone says "only", they mean just the one.

You said "The only positive thing I can say about this development is my wagon." So, what are you even saying? You're literally calling your wagon a good thing. And "this development" is vague. Saying that you meant that as the "only" good thing about "this development" (which I took very vaguely to be the you-and-eagersnake competing wagons thing) does not change my point in the slightest that you called the wagon on you a good thing... I really have no idea how this is supposed to be a response to the point I made. It's like you're misreading your own sentence as far as I can tell, which makes me think I'm just misunderstanding what you're trying to say here. You didn't say "the only good thing about my wagon was X," you said your wagon was the only good thing about something else...

[Shadow_step]

Wtf is eager doing on l-4?

[Dierfire]

All right, I've caught up.

I am virtually certain that Shadow_step has the Ascetic modifier, regardless of alignment (he was clearly setting up to counter the claim as soon as eagerSnake made it), and very confident that Shadow_step is Town (Mafia has low incentive to counter the claim). With eagerSnake, I was half expecting him to withdraw the claim; the fact that he hasn't rules out some Town plays (Bulletproof or Miller trying to draw the kill were my first thoughts, I also thought of Wary but I don't know if that's common on this site because I can't find it in the Wiki--certainly it's not Normal). It also weighs against some Mafia plays (I agree with the idea that a Mafia Ascetic role is powerful and probably unlikely to claim early without withdrawing the claim later, so I'd find a Mafia Goon more likely).

A few points since the claim make me suspicious of eagerSnake. First, and most obviously, eagerSnake actively resisted attempts by Zoronos (785 and others) and nn30 (888) to provide content that would help us judge his alignment independently of the Ascetic claim. This seems consistent with a Mafia player in significant danger of being lynched and trying to avoid giving associative information (discussion of possible self-vote in 980 is also consistent with that thought process). The vote on implosion in 1212 is also strange given that boring is the larger wagon and was the player eagerSnake was most confidently reading as Mafia (I don't see any change from 1104). Of course, I think that the reasons to vote for boring didn't hold much water in the first place (next post post after next), which is also suspicious (I'm not buying that eagerSnake was simply too uncertain to make a meaningful case--in that event, he should have been working at improving his reads rather than repetitively insisting that he was Town).

UNVOTE: PenguinPower
VOTE: eagerSnake

I want a full claim from eagerSnake.

I saw someone else ask this and get the "fishing" dodge, so to be clear: I am inclined to lynch eagerSnake unless he has some additional reason that we should leave him alive.

It seems unlikely to me that PenguinPower and Gamma Emerald are both Mafia with eagerSnake, but either one could be.

[Dierfire]

@Prism

I'd rather hear why someone that isn't implosion disagree with the points I've made about implosion.

I'm still not suspicious of implosion.
I'm not suspicious of his read on MariaR in 562; as he said in in 802, he committed to other reads, so I'm not at all bothered by his difficulty reading one player (especially since MariaR had not given much that would help sort alignment).
I'll also throw this quote in about the read on boring:

I'm tempted to throw boring into my scumpile for reasons that I'm not sure have merit.

I don't find the discussion of those reasons suspicious; I'm understanding your argument that it doesn't make sense to have a problem with the reads that boring gave because they overlap with those given by implosion, but I think that it's perfectly fine to think that a Mafia player would give "easy" reads on Town players.

These things could come from a Mafia player, but I don't see any specific reason to think that they are coming from Mafia rather than Town here, and I'm sticking to the reasons that I gave for implosion as Town in 532.

I'm also disturbed by the fact that virtually no one has read me for alignment or outed a single read on me in 24 posts.

Grendel's recent one is the closest attempt.

I'll say that I disagree with Grendel in 1226. I don't find it suspicious that you would believe what implosion says about PenguinPower (it would be fairly easy to fabricate that read as Mafia, with a strong incentive to do so if PenguinPower were also Mafia and a weak incentive to do so if PenguinPower were Town). I would eventually like to hear your thoughts on my response to the meta case (595), but that's a low priority right now.
I'm not suspicious of your reasoning; I don't think that there's any special reason for you as Mafia to be focusing on implosion here, and it does seem as though you are trying to determine alignment by looking at whether implosion actually believes the reads that he gives.

[Dierfire]

Last, I'm discussing boring.

MariaR seems to be working with PoE (675). I've nothing useful to say about that.

I see that nn30 has multiple references to things that feel "off" (564, 638, 932) but not much elaboration on those.

The idea that eagerSnake parking a vote on boring should have attracted more votes from Mafia players if boring were Town (820) does not seem compelling to me. For one thing, there were votes for boring: a vote from Prism in 488 (due to an error in the VC the two votes for boring are listed separately), one from MariaR in 644, and one from implosion in 786.

I don't find it suspicious that she turned on eagerSnake after Shadow_step claimed. I think that her ISO clearly shows that she was reading eagerSnake as Town for no reason other than the claim (whether this was warranted is a separate discussion, but not one that I feel gives insight into her alignment given her reaction in 73). I'm not seeing any evidence that boring is "happy" with the conflict between Shadow_step and eagerSnake (774), other than the fact that she was ready to vote for eagerSnake.

The idea that the read on Shadow_step given by boring in 476 is the one that I most agree with--that last line in particular does seem awkward. I do think that Shadow_step seemed aggressive before that, though (and I find it suspicious that Gamma Emerald in 927 seems convinced by this, since Gamma Emerald in 485 thought that Shadow_step was in a tunnel).

This isn't a Town read, but it's not a Mafia read and I think that eagerSnake is a better vote than boring.