Mini Normal #1838 - Game Over

[Prism]

Hey everybody, I'm thrilled to join the game and can't wait to jump in.

That said, this is my busiest weekend of the year which makes it difficult to do so. I'll try to do a more comprehensive read on Sunday but for now I'm frozen in time at Page 12. In the meantime I'm going to VOTE: boring whose #196 left me wondering if she was trying to find inconsistencies or trying to find scum.

I really, really like Grendel's RVS questions and will likely steal them in the future, here are my answers:

1) What is your preferred alignment? Town, I play to improve and it's by far my weaker side right now.

2) Are you often mislynched? If so, why is that? Yes, my scum game is comparatively much stronger than my town game. Mafia is not just a game of you vs. them but of you vs. your past self, and the moment you exceed expectations as mafia, you have instantly set the bar higher for the future. The difference in strength between my scum and town games is enormous, leading to me falling well below the bar most games I flip town.

3) Can you describe your play style concisely in one sentence? Whatever it takes to win.

4) If you were the deciding vote at lylo with the slot above you, and the slot below you, which player would you lynch and why? So far I like LUV more than Shadow.

5) How excited are you for this game? Very, it's been quite a long time since I've gotten to play a forum game.

Main read I got from the first 12 pages was that Zoronos was likely town.

[Prism]

Hey everybody, I'm finally caught up. Heads up that I'm really bad at reading things I wasn't here for due to sheer volume (more specifically, keeping up with connections between posts) so expect me to be more reactive/thorough to future occasions than I will be here looking into the past.

Rereading I really don't like LUV as much as I thought. I liked the reaction to the wagon, it was very daring, but the post afterwards, #246, reads more as trying to stir off future trouble before it happens. It's a post for volume than substance, more chin scratching than investigation. I realize he said it was a reread post but something that for the most part is a summary doesn't really help. I also really don't like his passing on me even after I posted.

Elaborating more on my boring scumread and Zoronos townread, boring's #196 more sold me on thinking Zoronos was town than anything else. Having an inconsistent mind isn't a hallmark of being scum-being deceptive is. Saying that "I think talking about yourself is a scumtell" then doing it anyway shows less concern for appearance. And what on earth is that reasoning on the implosion read? I agree with it but that's not it at all.

Implosion is on the downhill ever since the wagon on him derailed. I agree completely that PP reacted really well to the wagon, for now I'm taking everyone else's word about him not doing this as scum but I'm doing a more thorough review later. On the other hand his read on Shadow is complete yuck and considering the thought that goes into most things I'm finding it hard to believe that this is the read getting the stamp of approval. I really don't like the noncommittal read on Maria in #562 or the halfhearted opinion fishing on boring in #563. #565's opinion on Gamma looks to me like either distancing from the wagon before it flips or fishing for a future derailment more than a real reconsideration.

I don't really have too many thoughts on Gamma himself, I feel like I need a better understanding of his meta. My initial readthrough was leaning town but after reading nn30's posts and ISOing Gamma I've waffled on that. I don't trust Implosion as far as I can throw him.

VOTE: Implosion

@Mod: Just a note that I voted boring back in #488 and that Slandaar is still in the vote count

[Prism]

If your still on rn I'd like to hear some more of you thoughts up to page 12.

I don't think my interpretations changed much except on LUV/Gamma.

To round out where I am right now, I think MariaR's approach to playing and think it is a major hindrance. I don't townread her, or trust those of others, especially not ones based on gut or tone, as it's obvious she's tailored her play to center around them. Until we either get flips from people she's voted or I get to compare other games more indepth I'm not trusting her anymore than I do implosion. Eager excels at being hard null. Everyone else I haven't really gotten around to.

[Prism]

@Prism
Could you explain in more detail why a noncommittal read on MariaR is suspicious to you, and why the opinion of boring given in 563 is suspicious? The former is reasonable to me given that MariaR hasn't been a central figure in this game so far, and the latter seems consistent with the reasoning in 562.

Two sections, in general and on implosion.

In general I think noncommittal reads are more likely to come from scum. They're a good multitool-they're reads so nobody can complain about you not giving content, they're easy to justify ("I like X and it makes me lean town on them") or shrug off entirely, they're easy to go back on ("After thinking about X I guess it's not that big of a deal, on the other hand Y really makes me lean scum") in future days, and they serve as additional justification for narrowing your choice of votes.

Rationality and consistency aren't reliable town indicators. They're reliable competence indicators. You can probably come up with a reasonable, consistent explanation to scumread anyone here. Does that make them your real reads?

On Implosion, I really should have linked Implosion's #562 over his #563 as better illustrating my point. It's entirely possible he has a read with weak reasoning as he states and wants other opinions. On the other hand, that isn't necessarily true, and his other posts make me think it isn't. I'm not buying what he's selling on Shadow and I'm not buying the paragraph of "tempted to scumread boring but I just don't know" while making sure to keep pushing Gamma.

One point on boring in his #562 is the following:

It also feels like the reads themselves make a lot of sense from scum; the top several players are all my more confident townreads, so it's consistent with my view of the game that she'd have sprinkled her scumbuddies near the middle.

Presumably, boring's reads make a lot of sense as town considering they're implosion's reads too. Yet, that isn't the implication here.

@Prism - I never considered that perspective on MariaR. Do you think she's likely scum, or are you just throwing it out there?

Throwing it out there, I wouldn't call it a hindrance if it made her easier to scumread.

[Prism]

while making sure to keep pushing Gamma

Bit of a shortcut of a characterization, he definitely seemed to be open to future change but also reaffirmed his choice of vote.

[Prism]

I get the desire for Gamma but I don't really get the desire for Penguin over at least half the game.

[Prism]

@Prism - expand on your lack of desire on Penguin please.

#591
#599
Do you have any questions not answered in the above two posts?

[Prism]

I don't think Penguin is undeinably rocksolid town but comparing him to people like Implosion, boring, LUV, Gamma, Maria, or even Grendel he might as well be the Pope.

[Prism]

I presume you've listed people who feel scummy.

If there are that many people on your scum list, you're doing something wrong.

Can you state why Penguin is a better vote than any of the names I just listed?

P-edit: Penguin not really helping my case or his by playing up the frustration but amuse me anyway.

[Prism]

Don't like all the focus on me not really wanting Penguin when my intention was to get people to read outside of just him/Gamma. Getting tangled up in defending someone else never ends well.

How on earth is PP less scummy than me? Do you have any decent reasons? Or is it just that I actually bothered to elaborate on my Zoro read like ten pages ago?

You share my implosion scumread but the reasoning behind it is virtually opposite, and the fact that it was 10 pages ago doesn't really matter when you still had your role PM in hand when you made it.

Either way, it's lovely to know that someone who apparently exists solely to swipe at low-hanging fruit is totally cool with you.

If he turns out to be town, then yeah, welcome aboard. If he turns out to be scum, then yeah, walk the plank.

@Prism So Penguin is a stronger town read then six people just because you liked his original reaction to his wagon?

He's in the upper half of the game. He probably could have never posted at all and still be in the upper half of the game.

What worse is that you are assuming that Penguin isn't matching his scum game based off the opinion of your top scum read!

It was Implosion who said that this game isn't reflecting his experience with Scum!Penguin.

I thought there were 2 people who said it but I also read 24 pages in one sitting today. I promised I'd review it later so sure, I'll do that ASAP (especially given Dier's interpretation) but my point isn't that I have a strong townread on Penguin, my point is that there are other people in the lynching line that make a lot more sense to serve first.

Who would you vote if not PP or Gamma?

[Prism]

Shadow's another name worth putting in front, I forgot about him.

[Prism]

I have way, way too many scumreads right now: Implosion, boring, LUV, MariaR, Eager, and nn30. Of the bunch, I'd probably say Maria and boring are the ones least likely to be correct.

nn30's last 10 pages have been a trainwreck. He scumread Implosion, said:

I'm still wary of implosion. Since I'm not getting any traction with him at the moment, I'll drop it and see if I have anything to contribute to the other wagons occurring right now.

but dropped the ball entirely with the followup. I scumread Implosion, explained why, and called for more votes on him-one would imagine nn30 at least taking an interest in one of his top suspects. Instead nn30 didn't even read my post explaining my reads or who I wanted, even when prodded to do so. He never had an interest in who I wanted instead of Gamma/Penguin to begin with, and even less so after the top one was Implosion. Latching onto Gamma and now Shadow and launching all kinds of shit to see what sticks is not a town approach to the game whatsoever. His #690 is noticeably about volume in casework over quality and he admits it. Does anyone here seriously think that Shadow wants to get into a 1v1 Day 1 as scum in a game where town has minimum 2 mislynches? Finally

I'm the most obv town player here.

is a trademark scum post.

Moving on, I think either Eager is mafia or they're both town. Eager is playing this exactly how he should as scum, because there's really no way for him to come out of this alive unless he convinces everyone they're both town. I believe he's ascetic-I don't buy so much that he's a town one. Implosion being one of the ones pushing that eager isn't mafia for it really doesn't ease my mind.

In the meantime, Implosion, would you like to respond to my #591 and #599?

Right now, my vote on Implosion stays, I'd be willing to switch to nn30 if people would stop assuming the guy was town for no reason.

[Prism]

What do you sr me for.

After ISOing you I really can't remember what I found wrong with the first 15 or so pages, it has more to do with me disliking your playstyle than anything but that really shouldn't factor into my mindset. Your push on boring/LUV is good.

The reaction to eager/Shadow is very 0-100 cavalier and leaves me wondering why you weren't doing this earlier if you had such a solid townblock in your mind minus Shadow. It reads very much as trying to take advantage of the chaos and it's your chance to take control of the game.

What do you think of my other reads, namely that on Implosion and nn30?

[Prism]

I've got a few things I want to respond to later but for now why are people assuming nn30 is town again?

[Prism]

Phone post so I'll make it fast.

Minimum 2 scum on that boring wagon but I really wouldn't be surprised if it's all 3.

P-edit: Eager/Implosion/nn30/LUV are all acceptable lynches so far.

[Prism]

WHAT IS THIS BS?????

The same thing I've been saying the past 5+ pages, nn30 and implosion are my top two scumreads and despite Eager playing his role strongly he's doing exactly what I'd expect if he was cc'd scum. If it flips town I wouldn't be shocked at either of you/Gamma turning out to be scum.

Wagon is 5 people.

I realize.

[Prism]

You mean I'm doing exactly what I should do regardless of alignment, which makes my actions either

A) Genuine townplay
OR
B) Perfect scumplay

I don't think realizing that getting Shadow lynched is suicidal takes a mafia genius and you're not going to sell me on that one.

Prism you shouldn't be okay with the boring wagon because of your scum reads and you should be voting eager.

Pls not the puppy face
I don't see why eager would claim right at day start as scum
his logic seems to add up at least to me

Honestly I'm at the point where if boring doesn't flip scum I'm gonna take another look at snake I really think you're just wrong here.[/quote]You claim at the day start and get the risk of being found ascetic out of the way immediately. I believe he's ascetic-I doubt he's a town one. You don't expect two in a game even if you're mafia.

As far as taking other looks at people, I again urge to to ISO nn30 if you are town.

Prism you shouldn't be okay with the boring wagon because of your scum reads and you should be voting eager.

I'm not okay with it and I'm voting one of my top two scumreads, I can vote Eager but I doubt it will do much good without serious reconsideration of the people on the wagon to begin with.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Eager

[Prism]

I have exactly 0 trust in your ability to scumread. Between 614 and 628 you imply (Penguin) or directly state (7 other names) feel scummy. That's 8/13 town members. Your list in 1013 has 3 people (myself included) who I feel are towny.

I didn't respond to your line of questioning towards me originally because without an "@nn30" somewhere in the post I'm likely to skim it and assume it was addressed to someone else.

The fact that I failed to reply to you is not enough of a reason to scum read me.

As far as my read of implosion, I still don't town read him but I found his responses to my lines of questioning satisfying (for the time being). Plus he dropped off the face of the map, nobody else seemed interested in talking about him, so I moved on.

More of nn30 not actually caring about what I'm saying and just giving a response for the sake of it.

Does anyone want to go read #797?

P-edit @Eager: Not really, no. Feel free to vote implosion or nn30 if you want. It's also not a logical fallacy, you're significantly less likely to be town because of it.

[Prism]

Phone post so keeping it short again.

I think I've been tunneling way too hard on nn30/imposion, whenever I feel like I'm not being heard I tend to get more and more assertive to match and that's a dangerous pitfall to fall into. nn's response to me was good and seemed genuine, on the other hand I still don't like implosion, especially his last post on boring.

ISOing LUV however has made it pretty clear I've been wrong to give him and others a pass while I tunneled. For now I'm going to
UNVOTE:

[Prism]

If Snake does flip town I will advocate lynching boring tomorrow.

This is a really bad post. I'm not sure if there's many other ways to put it. Why do you not just advocate it now?

I scumread boring for a really long time but the more I read the more I'm convinced I'm wrong to scumread the weird phrases (Zoronos jacket analogy, Shadow townread, etc.) as it appears to be more of a personality thing. The biggest reason to scumread her instead is the frustration she displays with me/Eager, especially the latter who is purportedly her top scumread. #1165's end does a better job of verbalizing this frustration if it's legitimate.

I'm still trying to keep up with the pace but I still don't really like any of implosion/LUV/Eager.

Both parts of #1168 has more of implosion being reasonable up until it concerns someone he wants lynched. The rhetoric is also incredibly similar to what I said about his townread on Shadow_Step, which he called indefensible and unhelpful. Why approach someone else's townread the same way I did if he thought such an approach "didn't merit a response". The first part is consistent with what boring's said throughout the game, with implosion specifically citing consistency as a towntell repeatedly throughout the game. The second part is just downright awful and a major stretch, and again I find it hard to believe that with the level of thought implosion tries to appear to put into the game, this is one of the ones getting his mental stamp of approval.

LUV's been so standoffish during this entire shitfest. It's possible he's finding it hard to keep up with the game, like I'm sure we all are, but voting Shadow and then basically turning into one himself reads to me like someone just waiting for town to fuck ourselves over.

Eager has pretty quickly switched from "perfect scumplay" to overplaying his hand hard with the constant "I'm town and I'll flip it watch out." It shows that he saw what was working and decided to keep approaching that angle without realizing the returns diminish significantly as you go. I really wanted to vote Implosion here but it's pretty clear to me that nobody is willing to do it-hit me up if that changes.

VOTE: eagerSnake

That's back to L-1.

[Prism]

I'm going to make that more prominent.

Snake is at L-1.

[Prism]

I'm still selling Implosion votes on the cheap if anyone wants to buy, it's a great product, the R&D team really came through, we just need some marketing and consumer awareness to really get the boost we need.

[Prism]

Not sure what you mean by this; when I said your earlier post didn't merit a response, I mean in the way that it wouldn't merit a response from you if I said "Prism is so scummy, vote: prism". It doesn't merit a response if there are no specific points to respond to.

There were specific points, namely ones remarkably similar to the ones you made on boring-namely not buying certain reads as being legitimate.

Consistency is a towntell in an extremely specific way and although I'm not going to ISO myself you should see that if you look at how I use it; consistency is a towntell insofar as it indicates that a person has an internally consistent set of reads. Consistency on its own isn't always a tell. Experienced players will be consistent almost always, and many players will have some inconsistencies in what they say as their reads change or they forget about minor things they noticed earlier. The main time I remember citing consistency earlier was in criticizing gamma for being inconsistent about a major read (or at least what seemed like a major read) over the span of <24 hours, which indicated a lack of a consistent internal thought process. Consistency in general is not indicative of town.

Acting like I don't know consistency isn't necessarily a towntell has to be a joke. It really does. Is anybody actually reading this guy? I can scream it from the rooftops all game but nobody in this game is even bothering to read what I'm typing regardless of how short I keep it. His description of how he views consistent internal thought process is exactly how boring's read on Eager was consistent. This isn't even attempting to look at the meat of what I posted.

Golly, you sure do know a lot about the way that I think about the game of mafia for having met me like two days ago
Also there's more of that non-specificity you seem so fond of... you're essentially saying "this is bad" and leaving it at that.

Golly, it sure is hard to notice that implosion tries to appear thoughtful.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Implosion

Seriously, I know nobody is taking this seriously, but actually take the time to look at Implosion's reads throughout the game and ask yourself if they really make any sense. They don't.
I've been specific numerous times, you're blatantly going for lowhanging fruit rather than any of that post's actual substance. The one towards Grendel was selfexplanatory-it's saying he'll vote boring if Eager flips town. The question is if he scumreads boring why doesn't he just push her today?

[Prism]

lol Prism.

If you think I should be voting boring, pending scum read based off a pending flip. Why aren't you voting the wagon you are most interested in?

I explained why in the post you quoted.

I really wanted to vote Implosion here but it's pretty clear to me that nobody is willing to do it-hit me up if that changes.

Like your Implosion scum read is all kinds of weird. You think he is scum yet you trust his words on Penguin. You want people to vote Implosion without putting a vote there yourself.

I already said I thought 2 people spoke on Penguin, not one, in #627. I was voting implosion for a lengthy portion of time until it became apparent nobody was going to vote it and I should pick between boring or Eager, at which point I voted Eager in #1042. As quoted above, I have been pining to switch to implosion but there it is antitown to vote someone you know can't be lynched today. It is throwing away a vote. I already explained my #1195.

This is Exhibit A in what I mean when I say nobody is even bothering to read anything I'm typing.

[Prism]

I'm also disturbed by the fact that virtually no one has read me for alignment or outed a single read on me in 24 posts.

Grendel's recent one is the closest attempt.

[Prism]

Didn't Implosion scumread me?
Why does it look like he is defending me in his consistency argument?

He cited it as an example of a scumtell, he wasn't defending you. However, his explanation of what qualifies consistency to be a towntell,

consistency is a towntell insofar as it indicates that a person has an internally consistent set of reads.

is exactly what I described about boring

The bigger thing that should make you vote Implosion happened eons ago:

It also feels like the reads themselves make a lot of sense from scum; the top several players are all my more confident townreads, so it's consistent with my view of the game that she'd have sprinkled her scumbuddies near the middle.

Presumably, boring's reads make a lot of sense as town considering they're implosion's reads too. Yet, that isn't the implication here.

He explained in #802 that this was a reason for why he was unsure on his read on her, but this isn't true. Go look for yourself at the context he used it:

I'm tempted to throw boring into my scumpile for reasons that I'm not sure have merit. 3rd vote on what I suspect is a wagon on pp-town where i suspect the first two votes are also from town, and her reads list. It feels somewhat forced or like she's posting it for the sake of having posted it. It also feels like the reads themselves make a lot of sense from scum; the top several players are all my more confident townreads, so it's consistent with my view of the game that she'd have sprinkled her scumbuddies near the middle. Although again I don't want to put too much stock in that since it's dependent on reads of other players. Calling PP "dismissive in a way I only see with scum" is just weird. I see that kind of dismissiveness so much with experienced town players who feel like they're dealing with newbies and PP's dismissiveness looks pretty much identical to that to me; the way she qualifies it as "only in scum" sounds like it might not be accurate because of that.

This doesn't look like he was using it as a reason for uncertainty or a point in her favor to me.

[Prism]

I appreciate it but that's one of the least important posts I've made.

[Prism]

ie. I'd rather hear why someone that isn't implosion disagree with the points I've made about implosion.

[Prism]

@Dierfire I promised to review it awhile back but yeah, it's been pretty low priority. I'll get to it when I have time if it's still relevant.

I still don't buy the case on boring, well I don't buy it enough to believe she's the correct lynch for today.

@LUV: Can you explain in your own words, ie. minimal "I agree with X" even if it's true, what's wrong with the case on boring?

[Prism]

Hm I see your point but I don't see any other better lynches then LUV and that clearly isn't happening

What makes you think nobody wants it? I've been meaning to go back and reread him for awhile because what I saw I didn't like. If I had a gun to my head right now I'd vote eager over him but that might change.

I agree though that this day is largely dragging. At this rate my vote is going to waste so I'll

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Eager and just say let me know if we want to talk LUV/Implosion again.

Dier's last posts are a lot to unpack and as with LUV/PP are a project for the future. My main limitation right now is time, which is something I expected to have more of when I signed up but is making it harder to play. I'm sorry that I can't serve as a better asset right now.

[Prism]

Add Gamma to my future projects because the last 4 pages are a shitshow and even though I scumread Implosion I agree on wondering how anyone can possibly scumread Shadow.

[Prism]

If Eager flips scum Gamma is going next.

[Prism]

Why?

Might be a bit preemptive but that was more an instinctual reaction to seeing the L-1 back and forth which came off very forced from both sides, combined with Gamma hopping on/off Eager like his vote was a pogo stick.

I'm still rereading him when I have the chance.

[Prism]

Do you agree with my hypothesis that if Eager is scum than Gamma is likely one as well?

[Prism]

Do you have any final thoughts, reads, or reflections?

Using your presumably last two posts on reminders that you will flip town isn't helping your case.

[Prism]

My post was directed at Snake, not you. Incentives to get Snake to out his thoughts are obvious regardless of what he flips, though I suspect I know the answer.

[Prism]

I question the point of declaring intent when he already claimed. Are you fishing for an unvote or did you just not see the claim?

The switch is sketchy already but I'm not seeing the motivation to declare intent like that on top of it.

[Prism]

Hi all, sorry I've been busy, I'll have a big catchup post later with my thoughts on the flip+kill and results of me reading Dier and LUV.

[Prism]

Later meaning tonight

[Prism]

@Dierfire After skimming the game with PP, reviewed already by both you and Implosion, I agree more with Implosion. His reaction earlier felt more genuine and more brash than the game linked.

Reading Dierfire as an ISO has made his posts a lot easier to parse. I like his reasoning for PP and Gamma even though I'm not suspicious of PP, his reads go into a lot of depth (not necessarily a towntell) but he's been straightforward and active all game. The only vote that strikes me as opportunistic would be his vote on Eager, but I and several other town players agreed on it and did the same thing. I agree with the first and third responses about boring in his #1659. My impression is that he's town but clearly competent-if I need to revisit it later, I will. I can go more indepth on this if anyone wants but I'm trying to keep my explanations short.

My reads have changed with that flip but first some thoughts on today's posts: reading Implosion I'm still suspicious but the more he posts the more I'm beginning to suspect it's just his ego. A lot of his Day 1 makes a lot more sense (in particular the "boring has the same reads as me") from that angle and his posts today have been a lot more solid. In particular, I see little reason as scum to not take the free mislynch on eager. I'd be surprised if anything other than two scum were on that wagon, and Implosion wasn't on it. His posts today have been equally condescending but after reading the game with PP that read of his seems legitimate, and the way he's playing is quickly boxing himself in for lategame if he's mafia. Some of his statements today I could see deeper machinations behind but it required a lot of mental gymnastics to arrive at.

That Maria kill was (obviously) made for a reason. Looking at our cast it's hard to imagine Shadow or nn30 getting lynched anytime soon, making them great kills. On the other hand, I was still suspicious of Maria and very few people outed a townread on her as far as I remember. She'd get some credit for trying to lynch outside Eager but how much? Scum needed 3 or 4 mislynches to win this game, and with at least 2 people I can think of who are unlikely to be lynched ever it's strange to go for Maria over them, or even over people like myself, Grendel, or Implosion if we're all town. It could have been made to implicate boring or Dierfire but as everyone and their mother has pointed out it'd be pretty minor and hardly worth the value of a dead nulltown over a dead hardtown.

Looking at Maria's ISO, either one of them is really scum, more likely boring than Dierfire in my opinion, or MariaR is 5/5 in her townreads in #751. I'm inclined to believe the latter regardless of if the former is true. Cry WIFOM but you want but you only WIFOM if you think you're more likely to win because of it. This kill doesn't make sense if other, more town players are on the right track. nn30, Shadow, and PP line up nicely with my reads, Eager is flipped, and Grendel isn't a stretch. It seems unlikely for any of them to kill her if they're scum. I think they're all town, Grendel being the one I'm least sure on.

LUV probably needs to be strung up. I still don't like the quantity-over-quality posts early in the game and that flop was awful. This explanation in particular seems really unlikely to me:

Also, my case on Shadow was looking like it was never going to be taken seriously, so I decided to pressure my newly found scum read on Snake.

Does scumreading both Snake and Shadow yesterday make sense to anyone? It doesn't to me. I still need to reread him some more, and especially find other games to see if he's always like this, but for now he's a great spot to park my vote.

VOTE: LUV

Boring got mostly a free pass from me later in the day yesterday due to implosion/Maria/eager being the ones leading on her but 2 of these have flipped town and 1 is no longer a power scumread. She's earned a spot at the top of my reread queue along with LUV.

As a final note I don't like the record keeping on who believed the 2 town ascetics. We had a wide variety of views on the ascetic claims-from me believing either both were town or only Shadow was to Shadow's adamant belief that eager had to be scum. Assuming only 3 mafia and no third party that wagon had at least 4 town, and more likely than not 5 or 6. What to believe about the ascetics is definitely a lot easier to fake than faking reads on players outside them-I think it's a red herring and don't like looking too deeply into it.

[Prism]

I also don't like the reasoning behind the townreads on me. They're mostly for gunning for Implosion at a time when no one else was.

Considering no one really agreed with my reasoning, it seems odd for people to townread me for having it. If my push was town I imagine you would have liked something I said and voted with me-yet no one did so. It seems more like I'm being townread for having a read rather than having a legitimate read. Some of the people townreading me for it are likely scum. Some of them are likely town who didn't really take time to think through what they were townreading (because again, if they did they probably would have either voted with me or not townread me to begin with). That's not a good mix.

[Prism]

I don't see how I haven't made it clear why I started scum reading Snake towards the end of Day 1. Why are you implying that I was scum reading Snake for the majority of the day?

I never implied that you did it earlier. Your statement implies that you held both reads simultaneously at the end of Day 1. It still makes no sense to have ever had both.

As for Prism, I reread his ISO and something about his reads feel fake to me. I'm not sure if that's correct way to put it but basically the stances he is taking on everyone seem very safe. It feels like he can easily fall back on them or conveniently change them at a moments notice with little to no scrutiny.

Can you give examples of my reads that feel fake to you?
Can you give some examples of safe stances I've taken on people?

If anything I've been contrarian for a large part of the game-it took me a lot longer to come around to thinking nn30 was town than it did anyone else and I was the only one pushing Implosion yesterday...and even now that others are today I've changed my focus for reasons described in #1664. I also switched off of boring shortly before others started scumreading her, and never hopped back on, again for reasons described in #1664. If you're defining convenience as going with others, I've changed my reads at some really inconvenient times.

[Prism]

Why does it make no sense?

The premise was that they were direct counterclaims, for one?

Tone and gut for me, at least what I got from what when I reread your ISO last night.

Okay, but can you give examples of the reads you feel are safe or convenient?

Looking at your ISO I'm more skeptical of your interpretation of my reads, and even more skeptical of your reads.

In the meantime I'm going to VOTE: boring whose #196 left me wondering if she was trying to find inconsistencies or trying to find scum.

My original read on boring. A few posts later we get LUV reading boring...

I don't know how to put my feelings about her [boring] into the words but I can't shake this vibe from her. I think it's mainly her vote on Zoro, which read more to me as nitpicking about inconsistencies rather than looking for scum.

And in the same post...

Prism - Just subbed in. Nothing to go off of.

On the surface, it seems like you're the one being convenient between following me on boring and flopping on snake when he hit L-1.

On a deeper level, it seems really strange as town to directly plagiarize my reasoning on boring then subsequently claim, in the same post, that I had given "nothing to go off of."

More votes on LUV.

[Prism]

Nitpicking about inconsistencies =/= trying to find inconsistencies.

If you haven't voted LUV and need a reason, read my #1689 and this response.

Also another thing I noticed, you seemed concerned about how you look. A few posts in your ISO if I recall you were frustrated at people for their reasoning for town reading you. It's as if you worried someone will go back and wonder why you're so widely town read by the majority.

Is this a scumtell?

[Prism]

Hi all, apologies for my absence.

I haven't had time to do any of my project rereads and won't until Saturday.

Skimming the last few pages, Gamma's repeated inconsistency is definitely worth more looking into but it appears to be largely due to lack of caring. Can anyone with experience with Gamma weigh in on how well he keeps his read mapping straight in games he's flipped town?

Also still need more LUV votes, I hate to be mean but if he's town he's dug himself a hole he's not getting out of minus becoming mechanically clear. Plagiarizing me, saying I was null afterwards, denying it, and being unable to substantiate any of his claims about me all add up to a headscratcher of a game if he's town. I don't think assuming he's scum for it is a bad idea.

[Prism]

Hi all,

Sorry for being deadweight recently. I've got a few free hours today so I'll try and catch up later tonight.

[Prism]

Mostly caught up.

First thing that jumped out at me is Grendel's recent posts are high quality and worth looking into. In particular I really like his #1854

I've similarly thought about the Maria kill but my conclusions are different. I think her townreads either all were town or only one isn't. One of them has flipped it and nn30/Shadow are both likely town as well. There's literally no other reason to kill her when if they weren't, she's protecting scum and is a candidate for a mislynch later down the road. I think in general it points more towards boring being scum. I think not making NK speculation is a big mistake-every kill is made for a reason-out of perception of a threat, out of a desire to misdirect, or some combination thereof. My biggest strength as a player is playing the WIFOM game and winning.

boring's is a difficult read. #1609 I think brings up a good point on implosion but you don't have to be scum to find a good point. The frustration is hard to see through, last time I reread it I could see it being legitimate. I liked #1165 at the time but now I read things like this and just want to vote her for it:

I'm frankly baffled by my wagon, or that it's lasted this long. I'd congratulate scum, but I don't think they've earned it.

What came after was better but I feel her posts are always going to come off the wrong way. However, that doesn't mean I'm wrong. The MariaR kill is a really, really good reason to vote her, especially if Gamma's report on Implosion is legitimate. She is my top fallback pick for a vote today if LUV doesn't pan out.

I still want an LUV vote for reasons already explained. It's not changing. You don't lie about plagiarizing someone else's reasoning as town.

Implosion's posts are getting worse but he's town if Gamma is and I'm glad he was investigated. I was scumreading him again but traitor's page says that in normal games it must turn up guilty and I can't find any others in the list that return town as mafia. I typed up the next part before I went back and saw this but I'll leave it anyway. His posts have had me thinking he's just making up plausible reasons for his reads and not even bothering to interrogate himself for whether or not they make sense. The first part of #1895 in particular reads to me as either a fundamental misrepresentation or misunderstanding of what scum do and don't do in general.

I think Gamma is real. I really believe the claim. It'd be one thing if he kind of talked to Implosion Day 1 and then started today with a brief interaction but he literally never mentioned implosion once and then all of a sudden seemed to townread him. Either he planned on doing this from the start or it's legit and I lean the latter.The one thing I agree on in Implosion's post is that the read forgetting is a towntell but I would phrase it as less concern for keeping up a facade rather than less concern for his life. Finding a completed town game of his in 154 pages of posts was difficult so I just went back to the first one, he looked more consistent read-wise in it but he also has noticeably grown as a player and I don't put much faith in that. This is a bit less solid but based off that game I'd be willing to be he'd rather try and be consistent as scum than roll the dice on being townread anyway. Either way, he makes 47 posts a day and I'm not going to blame him if he's getting muddled as town. I'm not voting him or Implosion today. If they're both alive later I'll reconsider. If he flips scum I will almost certainly instavote Implosion and LUV after.

Rereading Zoronos is my next project, his early Day 1 was pretty town but recent posts tell me otherwise. Telling us not to NK speculate and not meta is a big negative as the value in both is obvious. If boring is scum, his chance of being so additionally shoots way up. For now, more people need to vote LUV. Even if I'm wrong and Gamma's scum we'll find out later. Giving implosion a pass by way of Gamma, the order I'd lynch in right now goes something like LUV, boring, Zoronos, gap, then Dierfire, Gamma, Penguin Power, Grendel, then everyone else.

As a reminder it is imperative that you vote in a relevant way at the end of the day as town, even if you are sure your vote is scum. Your second or third choice of vote is better than the scum's first choice. If your vote does not gain traction, it means switch to someone else. Do not throw away your vote by either not voting or by voting someone you know will not be lynched.

[Prism]

Case on LUV is mainly laid out #1686 and #1689.

a) I have been pretty clear I think Implosion is likely-scum. I just can't seem to get anyone else to agree with that point, or if they do they hand wring about it.

This is completely false. I literally spent the entire last half of Day 1 trying to get a vote on Implosion, including multiple posts at the end of the day asking for an open call for an Implosion bandwagon. You responded by walking back your scumread and refusing to vote him.

I am mentally weighing the Prism vs Implosion axis, because I am having a hard time making up my mind on Implosion. So, Prism's posting in terms of 'Here is how to play mafia effectively' goes along a lot of the same lines as my thinking about how you play the game (not necessarily same conclusions, but very similar mental rules for what to look for and what is meaningful). I want to say this is towny, but bias is so easy in that type of system. However, he is persecuting his reads pretty unerringly, so that is towny.

Now, on Implosion. He's been thin all game; that is, my general impression is that he doesn't do a lot to try and steer the conversation. He comments on this, but doesn't push. I am suspicious of anyone willing to just float along. However, he has had a few posts (I'm playing off the top of my head here rather than from notes / ISO, so if you want research it will have to be a follow up post later) that made me nod and decreased my suspicion. However, a body of work and a few posts aren't the same thing - It does mean he's not my top scum read, but I remain skeptical. When I last compiled a reads list, I had a note in there that said he couldn't be scum with SS (and I think one other player, but I forget who at this point), who was my other main read, and I think that's borne out at this point because I doubt SS is scum running the play he's running.

The last time you mentioned any reason to think he was town was 1000 posts back in #580. Every post in between these two you just gave more reason to scumread him only to give a weak obligatory post about why you still weren't sure. You scumread Implosion all game and apparently were pining for someone else to agree, yet you couldn't even be the second vote on him, instead preferring to build up to hammering Eager from #1168 on.

[Prism]

Prism you never answered my question on why you think Penguin is town.

Ctrl+F searching "Prism" in your ISO, you never asked me. I liked his reaction to the wagon on him, it was very brash and a bit selfrighteous. I took implosion's word (think it was multiple people's) word on it at the time that his meta suggested he wasn't like this as scum. Speccing the game linked myself, I agree that this one is noticeably different. It's possible he's grown as a scum player, and his end-Day 1 posts were lackluster, but for now I townread him.

Are you distorting on purpose, or just on accident?

On purpose.

Because 1852 was a D2 post where you had been afk all day or otherwise non-contributory. So while your spending the last half of D1 chasing down Implosion is all well and good, you weren't around to help me go after him on D2. If you had actually been around to do anything, it would be false. But you weren't, so.

The point isn't about Day 2 it's the fact that you had more than ample chance to push Implosion but consciously chose not to and even typed up a post about how despite being a top scumread you wouldn't. Be technical and claim it's true for strictly the present moment Day 2 if you want but it seems to me to be a lot more than that. You had just had your chance at Implosion and turned it down.

I am not sure what you think 1447 is saying other than that I had a lean scum read on Implosion and a lean town read on you so... ???

It came off to me as an explanation as to why you weren't voting Implosion with me, since again you made like 7-10 posts citing reasons you thought he was scummy, only to fencesit instead.

So why wasn't your vote on your primary scum read at the time?

Because I wasn't sure yet, that's why I was still busy asking questions when LUV swung the hammer.

Did you need to be sure to be a second vote on Implosion when Eager hadn't claimed and was sitting at L-3/L-2?

And I was never building up to hammer eager; I was trying to figure out Boring. Which should have been super obvious from my continual questions to her. And yeah, I'm not putting the second vote on a lean scum read when my primary scum read has 4 votes and is the primary counterwagon to a town read.

You made at least one post indicating a shift away from boring and then explicitly stated that you were starting to think you should hammer Eager. From what I see you never explicitly said you scumread boring-and if you did it might have been a good idea to vote her since she was only at L-3 at the end of the day.

This is kinda reasonable...
Talk to me some more about his contributions. I am going to ignore last night's "wtf is this" bullshit-a-thon for this purpose. Those posts were bad and dumb we both agree, talk to me about his posts from before then.

Also, which alignment do you think is more likely to go off on crazy conspiracy theories, town or scum?

Yes, I'm debating whether I want to hammer Eager or not, thanks for asking. I am trying to make up my mind. His play doesn't comport with rational scum strategy, but he's useless and I wouldn't mind him gone soooo.... deciding.

From what I see you never explicitly said you scumread boring-and if you did it might have been a good idea to vote her since she was only at L-3 at the end of the day. Instead you chose not to vote, or to wait to hammer Eager.

I was frustrated with Eager because I thought he was defending himself ineffectively and otherwise playing poorly, but I kept trying to throw him lifelines to pull himself back. Trying to paint me as having a scum read on Eager is fundamentally disingenuous.

I never said you had a scumread on Eager. I said you were building up to hammer him and this is demonstrably true.

[Prism]

@Prism - are you convinced by Zoro's post? Why or why not?

No, it just drew more attention to things I found scummy.

[Prism]

I was starting to scumread Zoronos so I'm glad he's the one cc'ing LUV. Between the two I'm still voting LUV and I'd be surprised if I was wrong.

Lynching outside isn't a bad idea, if we decide to do it my vote is probably going to be for boring. In boring's position as scum I would definitely be looking to bus to get some credibility back after that Day 1 and Maria kill. My next favorite choice after boring isn't really clear, I can see any of Gamma/PP/Dierfire/Grendel and I'm not voting Gamma today.

[Prism]

On my phone and don't have time to look it up right now, but how do kills work onsite? Does only one mafia perform a kill or do a majority (ex. 2/3)? If it's the former I see 0 reason for Zoronos to jailkeep Gamma if both are real. He roleblocks the cop and prevents getting a pseudoreport of his own.

In the event LUV is real I would be shocked if Zoronos or some scum wasn't a roleblocker, doc/cop is too powerful to have no way to negate. He's not real though, so there's that.

[Prism]

There is 0 reason, as scum, for Zoronos to cc there when a lynch on boring was the next likely candidate (in which case she would have done it)

There is still 0 reason, as town, for LUV to plagiarize my reasoning wholesale and then say I gave "nothing to go off of".

I'm assuming Zoronos isn't dumb enough to cc his own partner and I think that's a good assumption based off the playstyle he's shown.

[Prism]

There is 0 reason, as scum, for Zoronos to cc there when a lynch on boring was the next likely candidate (in which case she would have done it)

To clarify, if he's scum and boring isn't, he just lets us transition. If he's scum with boring, boring is the one who should have cc'd instead. Maybe another wagon like PP could have happened instead but practically half the town wanted boring and still do.

[Prism]

looking and nitpicking are not the same thing, not even close.

Uh, yeah, sure. If you say so.

Even if they were, he is implying that I couldn't have him as null because I plagiarized him. Does that make sense to anyone else? Why couldn't I have had him as null because I liked this thoughts on boring? How does giving thoughts on boring make one worthy of a town read?

Was I just null though?

Why couldn't I have had him as null because I liked this thoughts on boring? How does giving thoughts on boring make one worthy of a town read?

Prism - Just subbed in. Nothing to go off of.

I fail to see how as town you still vehemently insist that that thought was original even when a glance makes it obvious you were influenced in some way. Not even the only reason I'm voting you anyway.

[Prism]

Way too much to respond to but I'm trying to figure out a way to respond to it all, give my current thoughts, and have it be readable. It'll be up in <1 hour at worst.

The biggest thing I can respond to and most want an answer to is this:

For all the people pointing out that my reasoning on LUV was "odd" or "weak", I've had no one tell me why this is the case.
If you are one of those people, I want to know what you thought was wrong with it, because right now it's being used to discredit me without doing any actual legwork.

[Prism]

Trimmed a lot of this down to maximize readability. If you think something needs more exposition or if I missed a question, let me know. My vote and explanation comes in the next post.

@penguin - please provide a case against me.

Ok. This is going to be a long one so:

Spoiler: The Case

You're scum.

Stop doing this. You've recognized that a significant number of people are townreading your brash behavior and at this point you have to be exaggerating it for effect. It's already starting to backfire. Flesh out your case, because nn30 isn't scummy to me.

Jailkeeper stuff

Jailing offensively was the right play. If they have a roleblocker, you were already getting blocked and couldn't both save Gamma and block the kill simultaneously. If they don't have a roleblocker, saving Gamma is useless anyway (would just die N3 reportless) and you instead get a potential guilty ie. If roleblocker you were already 100% negated, if no roleblocker an offensive jail is the best jail. More on this in a bit.

Would you be convinced by this vote analysis, then? I'm looking specifically at the LUV votes and Prism. We could also add boring to this but you and I are in agreement with her it seems and Gamma is dead so I'm leaving him out of it.
This is the first vote count that includes Prism voting LUV. His vote stayed there the rest of the day (even though there were a number of opportunities to hop off). Is that enough to clear Prism?

I think scum needed to bus LUV there regardless, especially if my scumread on boring is right. I'd look more at why I voted rather than just the fact that I did so.

I thought your case was dumb because I understood it as 'you agree with me but have me null that's impossible you're parroting my read'.

My read on LUV was two parts, the first that you're responding to: The point was not that he had me null, but because he specifically said "Nothing to go off of." immediately after plagiarizing a large part of my reasoning. A read worth stealing may not be enough for an alignment read but it is definitely "something to go off of." LUV himself recognized it as a telling mistake-why else would he deny it? The second is that his read on me seemed pretty bullshit, and he couldn't give any examples of "posts that rubbed him the wrong way" when I questioned him on it. Maybe LUV will come in the postgame and tell me that he really didn't mean to do XYZ but with his flip I'm inclined to believe I was on the right track.

I think the weirdest thing about Prism yesterday was that he didn't seem bat an eye over LUV's Doc claim. That said, he's still a town lean.

Shocker: I'm not surprised when someone I am 99% sure is scum claims a PR. And how am I going to bat an eye anyway when I wasn't even there to post? This is my first post after his claim and he was already cc'd by Zoronos:

I was starting to scumread Zoronos so I'm glad he's the one cc'ing LUV. Between the two I'm still voting LUV and I'd be surprised if I was wrong.

Lynching outside isn't a bad idea, if we decide to do it my vote is probably going to be for boring. In boring's position as scum I would definitely be looking to bus to get some credibility back after that Day 1 and Maria kill. My next favorite choice after boring isn't really clear, I can see any of Gamma/PP/Dierfire/Grendel and I'm not voting Gamma today.

@Prism - what's your current read on implosion? I think I asked this before and didn't get a response.

I figured he was town with the Gamma claim, if Gamma turned out to be scum I was going to revisit it later. Before Gamma outed that I was starting to scumread him again after initially returning to neutral with some thinking over the course of N1. My reasoning on this is given in #1933.

@Prism

Can you link some games where you bussed as scum?

I know its offsite, and unless the meta is drastically different I don't really mind that.

I prefer to stay private. One thing that doesn't require me to link anything is that I have virtually 0 experience playing forum mafia, and the last time I did so was approximately five years ago. If you want me to describe my own scum meta, I can do so on request, but I suspect it will not be helpful due to the credibility issue.

[Prism]

VOTE: boring

I do not get the boring townreads at all. Boring was coming off a borderline disastrous Day 1 where she got herself into a 1v1 with someone who flipped town, then had someone who hard scumread her nightkilled. It makes a lot of sense to bus Day 2. Reading boring does nothing to convince me that this isn't the case. The Day 1 pushes people are widely citing are offhanded comments here are there while she pushes someone else. Her end of day suggestion to go on LUV over eager was in #1452, when the vote was 5 eager 3 boring with Eager yet to vote. It was already locked between her and Eager and whether or not she'd lose seemed up in the air. A lot of these newfound townreads on boring are just reflexive reactions to the LUV flip, and at least one of them is coming from scum. I still think Maria dying wasn't a coincidence.

Then there's this:

I was expecting you to be dead today too, since going for Gamma would be a huge gamble, but here we are. I agree that it would have been unhelpful to block Gamma on his last productive night. I'm thinking that roleblocker is more likely, by the way.

It's unhelpful to block Gamma last night, and thus Zoronos isn't going to do it. She acknowledges this. If a random town knows it scum knows it. Why did she expect a Gamma death?

It doesn't help that her posts have come off the wrong way to me all game as that just makes me more prone to confirmation bias.

My other top votes for today so far would be Grendel and PP, still need to reread Dierfire. If boring turns out to be town then I'm pretty lost.

[Prism]

I had this weird feeling creeping up on me yesterday that Prisum has been trying to pocket me this whole game.

But has made zero attempts at white knighting since I've come under fire. So I guess I was wrong?

In past days I've said virtually nothing about your alignment, the only times I did were that I liked your RVS questions and that I liked one specific post Day 2. The only reason I've ever given to townread you is based off Maria's death. In contrast, I've also pointed out that certain posts of yours were bad, and some of them worse yet replying to me without actually reading the original post (which suggests you weren't interested in them to begin with). You've been basically in the middle to bottom half of the game, and I've made it explicit that I intend to vote you today if I can't get boring. If boring is town, you are almost certainly scum by PoE. If boring is scum, you are still a very likely candidate for the partner.

You didn't even acknowledge repeated announcements for you as a potential alternative lynch, both today and yesterday. I'm not just not whiteknighting you, I'm straight up more on the offense. Between this and 2-3 other posts that appear unconcerned as to what I'm actually thinking, and boring pushing a PP lynch, you've definitely earned the second spot. I'll ISO you sometime tomorrow night.

p-edit - not even how early she wanted LUV on day one

I think it means nothing when it was halfhearted at best up until Day 2.

Boring (wanted LUV's booty for two days)

I really, really don't feel like this is the case. When was the last time you ISO'd it? I see no realistic pushing on LUV until boring was a 50/50 for the lynch.

In both these arguments, you're suggesting that I've completely changed my scum-play (and possibly suffered brain damage in the interim). Hard bussing from Day 1 is idiotic. Especially when there are so many bad town running around to provide easy counter wagons. So is killing the person most vocal against you, by the way. Not to mention it being crazy for a scum team to allow that kind of reckless killing pattern.

1. You barely went after LUV Day 1 despite mentioning him repeatedly 2. No, it's not.

Okay, assuming that was a typo, and not a senior moment, there's a difference between suspecting and knowing. There's no way that scum would risk a no-kill night. Unless the scum team can't math.

Actually, the math shows they can afford one no death without giving town an extra mislynch. It's not about "suspecting" there was a roleblocker either-you acknowledged in the post that it's stupid to jail Gamma but were apparently surprised he died.

Of course, your assumption that I'm scum seems to be based on the belief that I'm stupid, so maybe simple arithmetic is beyond me.

Can you quote examples of me basing my belief on you being scum as the belief that you're stupid? I've suggested nothing of the sort. This just entire post just reads as a poor ad hom defense more than anything else.

I find scum tend to mark their scum buddies as 'neutral' and will constantly express mild to moderate suspicion on them *while not pushing them*. That is classic distancing. "Yeah A is scummy but let's all vote B" is scum play 101. So those things you flag as 'breadcrumbs' to me are potential setups to join the bus in case LUV goes down. Which is basically what happened yesterday. Those were specifically the things that led me to conclude he might be scum with LUV.

What you are describing is what boring did Day 1 with LUV.

Prism (he intentionally draws attention to himself for people to state reads on him as scum wouldn't do).

What's your basis for this? I do it because my reads are a lot more accurate when gained through 1 on 1 interaction, but this is precisely the thing you want to be said about you as mafia and I play as such accordingly. I don't mean to be arrogant but as scum I've got the behavioral quirks down pat. If you're going to townread me, it should be more on the basis of my votes and my reasoning/timing, and it should be done sooner rather than later. I think my reads on implosion prior to his confirmed status and now boring are the best chances to evaluate that.

[Prism]

Important enough to go into its own post: Still not convinced by any argument nn30 is scum. Defending your lynch opponent to towntell is an extremely effective scum tactic, but I rarely see anyone else do it. This might be confirmation bias speaking but I really don't see it coming from him.

And I never thought I'd say this but thank god for Implosion.

[Prism]

nn30 is today's lynch.

The fact that nn30 was off the Eager wagon is more damning. Scum knew he was town and didn't want to be on his wagon. They wanted town to destroy themselves, look at LUV's wagon position. He was so reluctant to join the Eager wagon.

I don't think it's damning to make a vote that three confirmed towns made. Another possible interpretation is that LUV was reluctant to bus Day 1, he took a hard stance between Eager/Shadow by voting Shadow and wound up just lolhammering Eager so I don't really think being on a wagon that flipped town was the biggest concern. His vote makes a lot of sense if boring is scum and Eager is town. P-edit: nn beat me to it but I'll leave this anyway.

Can you explain to me why you don't think his vote makes sense if boring is scum?

Prism, I'm going to need you to reread my post. I said your argument was crap because it's based on the assumption that I have the intelligence and subtlety of an Easter ham, which, frankly, anyone would find a bit insulting. Either way, it's time to move onto crazy tunnel #4. Maaaaybe PP?

I've read it. Saying "I'd have to be stupid to do that" is not convincing. On the contrary, I'm suggesting that you are too intelligent to be surprised by scum's choice of kill given the knowledge that jailing Gamma is a waste of a jail, and that scum can risk one kill-less night. I also think that killing someone who is suspicious of you is a solid play. I see no reason to go on PP-the only questionable thing he's really done is overplay the brash behavior when he realized people townread it. That's scummy, sure, but that's definitely possible as town. If anything right now my second choice would be Grendel-my first impression of his case on Shadow is that he knows he's not winning vs. nn30 and needs a hail mary, especially if you're scum with him. Assuming no two death nights, scum needs at minimum 3 mislynches to win, and they're not going to make themselves. Somebody has to create them, and it's not happening if a red flip comes today.

I'm not trying to insult your intelligence and I'm sorry if it comes off that way. That said, I think it's more likely that you're playing up your offense just to be more dismissive, because I have actual points I've given, and you're willfully just skipping to taking offense and insulting me. You can be frustrated because it's entirely possible that my theories are completely untrue, but acting like they're irrational and impossible is another thing.

What is the rest of the case, beyond 'a bunch of town voted for her D1'?

I guess I'm missing the thrust of the case kinda other than the bussing part but maybe I'm the dumb.

Only speaking for me but a few of the reasons I'm voting her are:
-Maria death
-Acknowledging why Gamma wouldn't be jailed but claims to be confused about why he died
-Voting LUV with me really doesn't convince me given the timing. LUV did something incredibly scummy and it doesn't take a town to see that. This may be confirmation bias speaking but a lot of her votes both today and other days seem opportunistic, ex. #1763 gives the possibility of her switching to Gamma. Kind of hypocritical of me to point out as I've said numerous times to make sure your vote is somewhere it counts, but the who it is question is still there.
-LUV voting Shadow then quickhammering Eager rather than just voting one of Eager/boring in a natural way to begin with is really strange if they're both town.
-Part of it is just me staring blankly at my computer, blankly looking at the names Dierfire/Grendel/boring/PenguinPower, and asking myself who's the most likely scum out of the 4.

Still trying to make time to reread Grendel/Dierfire but life happens and I'm really busy today and tomorrow. I'll try and make it happen ASAP because if this flips town I need to be ready to go with alternative ideas. Right now I'd be pretty lost.

[Prism]

The faster people get over the eager Lynch the better. Make a bridge and get the fuck over it.
When you get a cc someone you lynch them. Simple as, no two ways to it.

I was responding directly to a point you made and giving an alternative explanation. You brought it up.

As far as your read on boring/me goes-I don't really get the dichotomy but going with it: What incentive do I have to bus LUV that boring doesn't? If anything boring had everything I did, and a lot more.

[Prism]

Hey all,

I see a lot worth replying to but I can't really respond to them how I'd like right now. I will be free after 6 PM EST tomorrow so you can expect more there.

In the meantime, two things I should reply to sooner rather than later. First, people have asked me my impression of PP-he's a lot less town than he used to be because it seems to me that he was very intentionally overdoing the brash behavior. Meta changes and it's possible he's gotten more adept at faking his tone. The key thing to reread here is probably interactions with LUV, I'll review them along with the long-promised Grendel and Dierfire rereads tomorrow. Expect this read to change accordingly.

Second,

You can't lynch conf town, your case makes me laugh.

I don't give a flying shit about convincing you of anything.
If you're town you're a moron if you're scum you are trying to lynch me because I pretty much am confirmed town.

Your stupid theory of there being an ascetic RB is pretty much BS. It doesn't matter what Zoro's read on me is. Its the correct play numerically to kill Zoro and keep blocking GE. That way there are no conf towns and my scum team can still push an angle of GE fakeclaoming cop, so implosion wouldn't be clear either.

Now back to lynching ob scum nn30.

Sorry, can you remind me how you're confirmed town? I don't recall seeing that anywhere. By your own reasoning, there's no reason for any town to believe there's two town ascetics. Maybe we should follow you on that?

I think you're town. I think nn30 is a lot more town than you. Even if me and Implosion are wildly wrong rather than you, and I really doubt that's the case, you haven't done shit to justify your attitude right now, and whatever you're doing isn't convincing anyone.

ISOing you and scanning your votes you've declared Eager definitely scum, Gamma his confirmed scumbuddy, Implosion the next scum, and you didn't even vote LUV. I'm not seeing where this high horse is coming from at any point. I haven't done much better but jesus.

[Prism]

Implosion beat me to it damn.

[Prism]

Finished my Grendel reread. Next up is Dierfire. As always, I've tried to keep it short to keep it readable-ask if you think something needs more explanation.

I went into it with a pretty heavy scumlean on Grendel. I'm a lot more sold on it now, looking primarily for interactions with LUV. His opening game with LUV is incredibly awkward, in #215 and #232 he basically just calls LUV "lynch bait" as town and says he doesn't know how to read him. He had a big stretch Day 1 of encouraging people to think of who's scum with Gamma, and that it couldn't be LUV so they shouldn't really vote him as he's lynchbait when he's town.

The biggest red flag Day 1 is that he directs questions at LUV but then never actually follows up or interprets their answers:

@LUV Lets chat a bit:
How do you feel about the two leading wagons, as well as the individuals on them?
And if this were EoD which wagon would you join?
In this hypothetical situation where would you look next if the one you picked flipped scum? if they flipped town?

I want you to take more active stances. Your note taking, and your otherwise low key posting is not helping me get a hold on your alignment friend.

This was the last he had to say about LUV for the day.

Magically, day 2, he forgets LUV is in his words "lynchbait":

Luv looks worse in retrospect then I first thought.

This is exactly what he should have expected as town given his own meta. If it's comparatively worse to that bad baseline, I would at least expect further explanation given the emphasis Grendel has placed on it, but this never happens.

Before the Gamma wagon takes off:

Luv is all over the place and I'm having trouble pacing him. I definitely didn't like his hammer, or the unnatural transitions in his reads. I can't help feeling like it is all to easy though.
I might try to look into Gamma first. There is something he has not been doing that I have been expecting him to do for a while now. And that is bothering me.

After this he winds up hardshoving Gamma, then just kind of flops onto the LUV wagon with no explanation, the only reasoning is what I quoted and that was hundreds of posts before the flip.

Aside from his interactions with LUV, I think his approach to this game has been really suspicious in hindsight. He's prided himself on taking a very ambitious, intellectual approach to the game, but regularly stops at the most basic level of speculation. He said he looks forward to matching wits with us, and made ambitious statements like RQS working him but not "for the masses" and that he tries to pin the whole scumteam Day 1 collectively rather than focus individuals. Simultaneously, his night kill speculation on Maria's death was "boring wouldn't make that because it implicates her" despite that being exactly what you would expect a scum defense to be. Several of his stronger townreads have been for things as simplistic as "draws attention to themselves". It seems really strange to take pride in taking a "deeper" approach to the game yet settle for assuming the other players are incapable of more than one level of WIFOM.

With all of the above in mind, Grendel has shot up to #1 on my scum list. boring is a lot more likely to be town now. My reasoning for voting her has largely been based on PoE and not liking her attitude. The biggest thing that flags me to her being scum is Grendel's hesitance to vote her, and that says a lot about what I think about Grendel.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Grendel

[Prism]

That wound up a lot longer than I wanted.

tl;dr of that post: ISO Grendel and ctrl+F LUV.

I realize Shadow is giving us all a collective headache but this has become a serious distraction. His #2532 actually makes a pretty good point. Grendel's goal has been "to pin the whole team at once" but it doesn't really seem like his approach has really matched up to that.

I'm fine with seeing how the ordered list comes out and having Implosion hard veto it if he wants. I also see no reason for Implosion to claim unless he feels it is appropriate.

My list is: Grendel, boring, PenguinPower, Dierfire, Shadow, nn30.

@boring I'd put him at my third slot for a lynch, and I'm pretty sure one of you is happening. I'll reread him if that becomes necessary or if I have the spare time but right now it looks like I'm getting a top choice.

[Prism]

@boring I'd put him at my third slot for a lynch, and I'm pretty sure one of you (my top two, Grendel/boring) is happening. I'll reread him if that becomes necessary or if I have the spare time but right now it looks like I'm getting a top choice.

EBWOP

[Prism]

Thought more about Implosion's jail suggestion. He's absolutely right and he should announce a jail publicly-if we lynch scum today we get a free clear no matter what out of it if Zoro is town.

That said, we shouldn't bet on lynching scum today. Assuming there's two, we need to maximize his chance of jailing correctly given this. If our lynch flips town, Zoronos needs to pick who he thinks is best, regardless of but including the named target. I think Zoronos should keep his reads close to his chest for the rest of the day. The only vote he makes should be hammer. Scum can afford one no kill but it's a big opportunity for an extra mislynch or even autowin if we manage to get it. If Zoro never dies we can reevaluate that but it'd be pretty stupid to claim jailkeeper here as scum given that he has to die soon.

I'm also not the biggest fan of follow the clear but it's also a great idea to have implosion singularly pick today's lynch when we approach the deadline.

[Prism]

@implosion: What do you think of his questions directed at LUV? The reason they're a big red flag for me is that they're a big chance for LUV to give content, presumably to show Grendel and others he's town or scum, but Grendel never follows up despite LUV's comprehensive answers to his rigorous questions.

I view it as highly likely they were asked for LUV's sake rather than Grendel's given their other interactions. I considered that the last line would be better for the scum PT but 1. It's just giving context to the questions and 2. We don't know how extensively scum is using their daychat.

[Prism]

My list is: Grendel, boring, PenguinPower, Dierfire, Shadow, nn30.

and where are you putting yourself?

You shouldn't be putting yourself anywhere but at the very top if you're town. It is inherently suboptimal to have town claim before scum. Would you like to guess which one of the two I think I am?

Now what do you think about Grendel?

P-Edit:

You are ignoring all my points for nn scum and then you'll ask me why I think nn is scum.

No, I haven't and I won't, because I already fucking responded to it in #2421 and #2423 because I actually try to take other people's views into account.

Again, please, for the sake of the game, get off your high horse, it's annoying as hell, because the sooner you do so the sooner we might actually start listening to you.

This is a team game. I have ego issues of my own, I get it. It's incredibly hard to stay patient when you think everyone else is bad. Right now I'm being very impatient with you, and snapping at you helps little. You can relish being right on nn30 all you want if you are. It's easy to bask in the thought of being a better player than anyone else, but do you know what's better than that? Winning the goddamn game. Please work with us here.

[Prism]

And dier. But like. every game of mafia there's always that one person who you're like, oh god, they're in this game and i like haven't read a thing they've said and i feel like i haven't interacted with them and they voted on some wagons i guess but oh look gets distracted by all of the other players in the game

Bad part about this is Dierfire is demonstrably very competent and wellspoken, a difficult read, and if he's scum he's likely to go all the way to the end. This difficulty is exactly why he has the status but that doesn't make me feel better about him maintaining this "To Do" status with me for so long.

[Prism]

Hate to consecutively post so many times today but:

Now what do you think about Grendel?

To make this more explicit, because I know you townread him, this is in the context of my post about him.

Read it as "What do you think of my case about Grendel?" rather than straightforward what you think about him in general.

[Prism]

1) It appears that people are using their claim list as a scum-to-town reads list, in which case, here's mine: Penguin, Shadow (already claimed), Dierfire, nn30/Grendel, Prism, Implosion/Zoronos (already claimed).

Why am I so high on this given that you thought my points about you were nonsense, and my reads are close to the reverse of yours?

[Prism]

I meant about nn calling me conf biased, not the previous stuff.

I don't think it's what you're making it out to be. Statements that assume the other person is town are common, it's just kind of understood that the conditional qualifier "If you are town" is there. Recognizing he can be wrong and you be town, and speaking to you accordingly, isn't a scumslip.

[Prism]

And nobody puts Grendel at L-1 until claims are finished and Zoro has outed his jail for the night.

nn30 worries me a tiny bit, independently. You're next because you've got nothing particularly scummy going on, and you've banked a few towny moves.

The reasoning behind these isn't readily obvious to me. Can you explain them more?

There's a lot of material that I want to read again. When I'm finished (probably tomorrow), I'll decide whether I want to give hammer intent on boring.

That's the first helpful thing you've said all day. Thank you.

What?

Shadow turning into a talking orange twice made me crack up, I really needed that.

[Prism]

Still going to respond to stuff later but I'm VT.

Shadow needs to fullclaim before Implosion claims.

[Prism]

I'm still busier than usual and can't make the responses I want today but quick notes:

-nn30 is either a god or town. I'm an atheist, I think it's the latter.
-I haven't reread to see if PP is real but I believe Implosion's site meta. if he is, lynching red today should give us town auto which would be pretty sick. Only way I could see to avoid it is if scum has a strongman.
-I don't get most people's reaction to Grendel, the past few pages of his are all over the place and it reads as trying to dodge autoloss at any cost.

@Implosion: If Grendel flips red do you still consider me a possibility?

[Prism]

I've seriously turned into a ghost the past 3/4 days sorry, I'm still heavily of the opinion that Grendel should be the lynch today. I'm not sure where Dierfire has come from over either of him/boring. I don't see him as unlikely to flip scum but I think Grendel is a LOT more likely, again the past 10 pages just reek of desperation to avoid potential autoloss. It turned borderline nonsensical.

This is probably the most important lynch in the game, and I want it on Grendel. I want a catchup post before any lynches go down and I really encourage people to unvote DF. Grendel, Shadow, nn30, and boring (declared intent) are literally all on Dierfire. Assuming Penguin Power and Zoronos are town, and Dierfire is mafia, mafia is bussing into probable autoloss. The only way this lynch makes sense is that either Dierfire is town or I'm mafia and, spoiler, I'm not.

Assuming Dierfire is town, I see no world in which Grendel is. That's a lot of assumptions, but I don't see any issues with my reasoning.

Shadow needs to drop the attitude again. Zoronos possibly jailing PP is stupid and nets us 0 information if they kill Zoronos which is the most likely outcome.

[Prism]

And for Grendel and Implosion, yes, Fire Emblem 8 is my favorite. It's almost time for an avatar change.

[Prism]

Outside of those two I am wary of Prism because I think he has the ability to fake what he is doing as scum. At this point I still think he shouldn't get town cred for being on the LUV wagon. I also dislike how he accuses his scum reads of being "nonsensical", which is on the same level as "Either they're bad town or scum". I also think a lot of the rhetoric he uses to drum up support for his lynches is mischaracterizing, and misleading. Trouble is that idk if that's just how Prism likes to push his wagons, or if its actually something he prefers doing as scum. I also never finished rereading him because his posts are dense and I had to do lots of cross checking. I was null about a lot of it.

To me this reads a lot like trying to implicate me post-flip with how vague and weak it is, I feel like it has to be on purpose. I don't know how much good it will really do you when the game is likely over and bussing at this stage is unlikely.

I have time Saturday if we want to wait for me to read Dierfire but I still see no reason to think Grendel will flip town. The only reason I haven't gone indepth on why I think he's been nonsensical is because of time constraints.

[Prism]

@Grendel-Can you quote what are in your opinion mischaracterizing or misleading statements?

On another note I've been very transparent with the fact that I'm not satisfied with the reasoning people are townreading me. Faking tone and going through the town routine is trivial after over 6 years of play. Anyone, town or scum, can give and subsequently walk back reads with my surface appearance as the basis. I've appealed numerous times to get a read on me at a deeper level, and to do it sooner rather than later. Maybe I overrate myself as scum, and that deeper level really isn't needed, but without meta on me there isn't anyone who knows, and therefore it's the only way. The focus should be on the lynches I push and the ones I oppose and why, because those are the things that stick-if you're scum, you've got to get a certain number of mislynches somehow, and it will show. Understanding why I am town is the deeper level I'm pushing people to reach, rather than merely thinking so.

[Prism]

Zoronos needs to out a jail first and it's 7:30 AM EST. Giving people 3 hours when they're asleep and subsequently heading to work is not reasonable, I know my Saturday request is probably too much but 3 hours is ridiculous.

UNVOTE:

[Prism]

VOTE: Grendel

[Prism]

Obviously pretty sad about that flip, I picked that and just led us out of potential autowin. PP death is a mild surprise but not really a major one, too risky to leave him alive and risk autoloss if they don't get him lynched. Town gets a report via Zoro anyway if we lynch right. Zoronos needs to out who he jailed last night.

Current thought is just to shift down the list and go to Boring/Dierfire. The only way I can really see us losing this is if nn30 is a god. Despite being wrong on Grendel I expect that to be the team. If not, next on the list of reevaluation would be either Shadow or Zoro. I'm not even going to consider both of them being town right now.

Not voting until I finish rereading Dierfire as for all I know he could be obvious town even though I doubt it.

[Prism]

If boring and Dierfire are both town and the team is something like nn30/Zoronos I'm probably just going to cry and never want to flip town ever again.

[Prism]

So... no consideration for jailing Penguin, like, at all?

We got the better end of the deal here. The jailkeeper is more powerful than the cop at this stage. Offensive jail gives a solid chance of autowin as it's a report and a blocked kill in one, meaning it can be done twice in a row. Even if Zoronos fails, if there's only one scum, we still get a clear out of it. That's a lot better of a deal than we were getting out of PenguinPower who was worth one report max. If Zoronos jailed PP and they killed optimally yesterday we literally would have thrown all of our advantage out the window.

If we lynch correctly today, assuming Zoronos is town, we win the game. We have a mislynch and Zoro gets to either find the last scum or clear someone with his jail. You aren't getting lynched. With 3 lynches and a jail, we have enough to cover me/Dier/boring/Shadow.

Even if we don't lynch correctly today, which is going to take us collectively deciding to liability lynch Shadow, Zoronos has a chance to get us autowin by jailing successfully twice in a row.

I'm not cocky I'm using basic logic.
It isn't too difficult.

The last post about lynching 2/3 of me/Dierfire/boring is literally the best post you've made all game, and it takes assuming you're scum to not reach that conclusion. Can you fucking stop?

[Prism]

How you see at minimum 3/4 of your peers all collectively asking you to drop the attitude and the cockiness and decide that it's a great idea to keep powering forward, to the collective annoyance of everyone and to your own detriment, is beyond me.

Maybe if you cared more about winning instead of flaunting your own nonexistent superiority you wouldn't miss the broad side of the barn every other post and stop being deadweight.

P-Edit:

If boring and Dierfire are both town and the team is something like nn30/Zoronos I'm probably just going to cry and never want to flip town ever again.

This is a bad post. There is no way Zoro is scum. Cause setup spec.
You've been here since 15' you should know this.

1. This is my first game on the site and my first forum game in over 5 years.
2. The fact that I don't think it's either nn30 or Zoronos is literally the fucking point.

[Prism]

This is a team game. I have ego issues of my own, I get it. It's incredibly hard to stay patient when you think everyone else is bad. Right now I'm being very impatient with you, and snapping at you helps little. You can relish being right on nn30 all you want if you are. It's easy to bask in the thought of being a better player than anyone else, but do you know what's better than that? Winning the goddamn game. Please work with us here.

Quoting this for you to see again, because I don't think I've ever played with someone so perpetually frustrating in my life, it makes me want to replace out rather than deal with you your attitude is so unpleasant.

[Prism]

You like to misinterpret all my posts. Nice

Yeah, I sure misinterpreted you saying I should know the site meta with my extensive onsite experience of 0 games all right.

Jesus, I'm out for the night, I'll calm down and be back tomorrow, me getting angry isn't helping at all.

[Prism]

@Mod: I'm requesting replacement, I can't deal with this anymore, this is insufferable, my apologies.

My final reads are still nn30 town, I lean Shadow town still but I'm very confident on my nn read and I strongly advocate against lynching him at any juncture. I still think lynching boring/Dierfire is the right call.

[Prism]

I've taken a walk and calmed down. I'm sorry for going off. I'm going to stay. You should stay too, we're close to the end and nobody will want to read 116 pages.

I agree with you anyway on it being 2/3 of me/boring/Dierfire even if I'm frustrated with your side points. I still need to reread Dierfire and I won't vote until then but I'm staying and you should too, we're both being childish.

@Mod: You don't need to replace me, I'm really sorry for letting my temper get the best of me. It won't happen again, but I understand if you feel you need to replace me anyway.

[Prism]

As far as reads go, I spent most of the time I was spectating from D1 onwards thinking that Boring, Prism, and LUV were the scumteam because I was townreading everyone else. I was really sad to see Eagersnake lynched because despite being cc'd, he was really, really obvtown. Implosion was too and the cop investigation on him wasn't the best idea in my opinion.

Can you explain this more?

I understand EagerSnake, but calling Implosion obviously town from minute 1 is a real stretch. I realize I was tunneling at times but the only reasons I saw to townread him Day 1 were very small.

Additionally, townreading Grendel, Implosion, Gamma, PenguinPower, Zoronos, MariaR, nn30, and Dierfire, all on Day 1, is questionable to me.

[Prism]

Alright, that basically removes any doubt I had about the Shadow slot. Black gave that list in 30 mins, there's no way he faked it. Those reads were legit and I doubt it was convenient to keep the same reads as scum. Maybe he could have gone back and revised just one/two but there's no way the whole thing is fake.

I feel bad for DF since I literally have barely read anything he's said and basically haven't even given him a chance, but at this point I really don't think I need to. If boring flips town then I'll be forced to as that means I'm wrong on one of Zoro/nn but I'll cross that bridge if we get there.

VOTE: boring

[Prism]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not suicide pacting, if one is town (or even both) that means I can no longer afford to get lynched. I have no intention of getting lynched, ever.

[Prism]

He could very well have made a couple easy tweaks to his "stream of consciousness". Regardless, how long would it take to type something like that up? 5 minutes, if you have an excuse not to edit. There's nothing original in there, either. His every post thus far is middle-of-the-road designed to appease our lovely conf. town.

You're right in the sense that I undersold the chance of him making one or two tweaks-that doesn't take too much time. The whole thing, however, definitely wasn't made in 30 minutes. It cites specific posts and you can clearly see the trains of thought in motion for them.

[Prism]

I've been doing more thinking about what to do in the event of a scum lynch today.

Looking around at other large normals, the one I found so far most similar in terms of flipped power is this: Mini #1800 which has a town motion detector, a jailkeeper, an odd-night mason recruiter, and a scum neopolitan/jailkeeper enabler. Our town power seems a lot heavier, as even with ascetics they provide distinctive claims from the VTs. Assuming Zoronos is real I suspect it is very likely that either scum has a jailkeeper enabler (presumably the scum expected to go first) or that the player expected to go further is a strongman.

Without a circumventing scum PR, I think killing Zoronos was almost certainly optimal. Gamma/PP gave only one more report in the event they didn't die. PP was still potentially lynchable. Zoronos in contrast has a chance to block back to back scum and is not lynchable. Town also gets a pseudoclear post-death if he dies with only one scum left. This threat continues into the next night, even after cop/deputy has died. The only way not killing Zoronos is optimal is if they are confident that scum will not be lynched, either Day 3 or on Day 4.

With this in mind, I think I've drawn up the best strategy for tomorrow. Assuming we get a scum lynch today, we will still have a mislynch. If there is no kill tomorrow night, Zoronos outs who he jailed, and we lynch outside that person and Zoronos. That night, if our lynch is on town, Zoronos jails the same person. If we again get a no kill, it is safe to lynch that person as we've just been granted a second mislynch and therefore get no harm out of using it on the jailed. If Zoronos dies instead, we get the same pseudokill a day delayed.

This works best if there's no scum circumvention. If there is it prevents outright framing of a town before the kill. If they no kill once then kill the next day, our extra person we prevent the death of to turn 3 way into 4 way is Implosion. The only downside to this I see is if scum has an every other night strongman.

P-Edit:

Keep in mind he made the majority of those reads before he got a role pm.

That is the point. I asked about the reads because I was skeptical due to their convenience, but he posted it in less than 30 minutes. It's definitely legitimate, if not wholly than the vast majority. It's possible he tweaked them after seeing his role PM but the chances are lower, and it couldn't have been more than one or two.

Also, I want your opinion on my theoretical world where Boring/Dier are the next two to go. Who's do we lynch assuming the game doesn't end right then and there?

Probably BlackVoid or Zoronos. My reads are my worst part of my towngame (See: Implosion, Grendel) but I'm still very sure it's boring/Dierfire. I really don't believe Shadow pulled his Day 1 as scum, nor that you are this capable of a scum. I mean this not in the sense that I think you're incompetent, but rather that if you're scum to me you're god at a keyboard. If it comes down to it I'll spec your other games and make sure you're not.

[Prism]

In hindsight it might not have been in my best interest to label you that way publicly just as a hedge, but it speaks to my confidence in it.

[Prism]

I've got time later tonight that I can hopefully do something with.

In the meantime still not buying the boring reaction hammer. I'm assuming it wasn't a failed selfhammer because you don't do something like that without counting the votes first, but it still doesn't make her town.

[Prism]

I've basically ignored the past few pages of black/nn but I'll go over them and see if there's anything new or worth following up on.

[Prism]

Go ahead and hammer, I'm not even sure if I'll get around to it as sad as that is. I don't see myself backtracking on boring anyway-anything I can see about DF/Black/nn/Zoro can wait until after we see the flip.

I'm assuming Zoro outed his jail already, which I think he did as DF.

[Prism]

I'm going to feel kind of bad if it just ends on this note with DF getting autoloss and me never reading him but I mean nothing is saving boring here FMPOV regardless of what I can envision him saying.

[Prism]

Thinking about it more this almost certainly isn't scum autoloss, I forgot about boring's selfhammer shenanigans. The only way it's scum autoloss is if she really thought it was L-1, which given her playstyle seems unlikely.

[Prism]

I actually have some time now so give me a bit.

[Prism]

Just posting to confirm I'm still here and planning to post, I'm just multitasking and taking awhile to go through.

[Prism]

Breaking from my normal rule of conciseness as I don't have time to get it worded optimally. This one's pretty stream of though..

My townread on nn30 has honestly been very much mired in confirmation bias but I don't think that means it's wrong. I started townreading them sometime either late Day 1 or early Day 2 and from there there's just been constant affirmations to the fact dealing with demeanor/the timing of certain posts. They were fakeable but I found it unlikely, as they were basically exactly what I wouldn't expect from nn scum at exactly the right times. If he's scum he's a borderline psychic which is why I called him god at a keyboard. Based off Implosion's statements regarding nn30 he probably understands what I mean. Yeah, my read is largely tonebased and may be an exaggeration, and at some point I might have to read through a nn30 scumgame or really go through interactions with LUV/earlier boring interactions but that's a lot of effort for something that will probably wind up pointless.

The only reasons I can see for nn30 are the boring/Zoronos interactions the last few pages. The former feels like bad distancing, the latter scum is kind of forced to throw shade on Zoro here if there's no circumvention, or if boring is that circumvention. I find both unlikely given nn's readiness to lynch boring until her selfhammer shenanigans.

I don't Penguin was likely to get mislynched at all. I think people realized how well his role fit into the setup. Without it, town would be underpowered.

This really isn't immediately relevant to anyone's alignment I think as DF/nn30/you all would have made that kill, but I definitely wasn't sold on him being town, especially given that scum claiming all VT there was bad play with a jailkeeper in the mix (I probably would have fakeclaimed BP after the deputy claim to cast doubt on one). Part of the purpose of my #2699 and #2802 were in the hopes that they'd nightkill him over Zoronos who I suggested as the "likely kill". Jailkeeper is about as valuable as deputy given how likely I thought we were to lynch scum, but in my opinion Zoronos had a higher chance of being town than PP did at the time.

Finally having read Dierfire: Going through I see nothing suggesting he's not scum with boring/LUV, #2070 makes a case for lynching LUV only to backtrack and give a vote on boring that wasn't happening. Despite saying in #2194 that 1. He didn't believe LUV's claim 2. He saw no convincing reason to put it off. he still didn't hammer him. #2277, the first post after the LUV flip where DF kept his vote on boring, is all about justifying townreads. At the end he says he'd like to vote Grendel or boring and picks Grendel despite not mentioning him the entire post.

To be honest I don't think anything here is a strong affirmative to go for Dierfire, but I really don't see a reason not to. Nothing about LUV/boring and DF tell me that's not the team and everyone else has towntold harder. If I were to go more indepth and find deeper reasoning to scumread him not based off of PoE I imagine it's there but DF is clearly no slouch at staying rational or consistent. His townread on me despite it being advantageous to walk back awhile ago is probably the only plus in his favor, but at this point it's looking more like a failed bet.

The last 2/3 pages I'm too tired to go through, I see more on roleblockers & strongmen, and I see more speculation as to the setup. I don't really want to get into it, I think I already explained my point about nn30's interactions with boring, and why I find it unlikely that Black faked the reads. Black townreading me for that replace out makes 0 sense if he's mafia because all he'd have to do is just not mess up and ride into the sunset, and townreading me as scum has the potential to backfire.

I'm not 100% sold that there's guaranteed a JK via the setup (I still think ascetics are powerful in their own right and we don't know the scum PRs, if any) but the doubt being thrown on Zoros suddenly isn't the best idea. Being paranoid is how we throw away a free win. Save it for 3/5 way LyLo. In the event boring is a circumvention PR or scum have none, scum throwing shade on Zoro is literally their only chance to win. boring's last statement on him is a pretty obvious WIFOM in my opinion and I think he's more likely town for it. 0 reason to even draw attention to her partner here, I would have told her to keep quiet long ago for reasons like this below:

Actually, @Prism - What do you think of nn's sudden turn on Zoronos?

I guess you being scum would also explain why you're so very twitchy about the slightest hints that you might be scum, and why you always try to force others to do the research for you. It's a pretty typical power play, and it's something I've been observing all game. I had pretty much chalked it down to your personality, but if someone's doing a meta dive, they might as well check for that.

If nn is your partner over DF you did him a pretty big disservice with this, not that I'm going to lynch him before DF but maybe if we keep going. If you were trying to irritate me Shadow-style with that last part, it didn't work.

tl;dr: I'm still not convinced it's anyone but Dierfire, and I don't see any reason to pore over nn's meta and Shadow/Zoronos's ISOs when we don't even know if we need to yet. Hammer away.

[Prism]

You need to be on your claimed jail regardless tonight.

Best case: boring flips strongman, we know you're real because why would there be a strongman without a town protection role. Anyone you jail is either clear or scum (Scum can't NK two nights in a row and is thus forced to give us the clear or the second ML night 2).

Worst case: boring flips goon or traitor, there may or may not be a strongman. You lose nothing by outing your jail beforehand as scum circumventing it or not is predetermined. If you die we may or may not lynch your kill regardless.

If boring flips town go ahead and yolojail but that selfhammer gives that practically a 0% chance. Scum cannot do anything with the knowledge of your jail.

[Prism]

Neopolitan flip makes strongman less likely but still seems weird to me to have no direct counter to either the jailkeeper or the cops. I was really hoping for a no death and swift end, at this point the game feels solved and I've lost excitement for it.

Scum still probably DF as I don't think BlackVoid is scum and instant thought to the flip is that nn30 bussing such a strong scum PR day 1 is nearly unthinkable. It also makes me wonder why they all claimed VT (unless Black is mafia) given that they had 2 or 3 results. I had a bit more speculation with the Neo typed up but it wasn't useful other than to as a "next time" lecture.

I thought about holding off on voting DF pending more setup discussion but I see no point. I think Strongman DF is more likely than scum nn or scum Black.

VOTE: Dierfire

I'm V/LA until probably Monday.

[Prism]

Mafia doesn't have an ascetic for reasons listed by Implosion. I obviously disagree on the strongman point-scum having no counter to not just one but two cops and a jailkeeper does not seem balanced to me. X-night/oneshot strongman seems likely to me and while I hope Zoro jailed DF but the way he said "If boring flips a blocking role" does not inspire me with confidence that he didn't jail me or BV instead. People seem to be viewing ascetic as a negative utility role which is not necessarily true-any separate title for role has power in itself, but there's more. Purpose of the ascetics was to counter the scum neopolitan. While it works against town's cops too, I find it difficult to see a setup in which scum only has neo, where it has town counters via ascetics and JK (three ways to block), and scum has no counter to cops or JK except through JK jailing a cop.

[Prism]

And I agree with nn, there's no real reason to rush this lynch, getting our eggs out of one basket in case he flips town is a good idea as long as we don't spend the time being paranoid and swapping away.

[Prism]

UNVOTE:

[Prism]

or the second, I think that Lil Uzi Vert was scared to have all three Mafia votes on eagerSnake.

nn30 never voted EagerSnake so your logic isn't matching up here, assuming nn30 would be your pick for the day.

Given that boring has flipped neopolitan I find it really unlikely that nn30 kept his vote on her Day 1.

[Prism]

Sorry, I somehow missed that that first post was directed at Black Void. Ignore that last question.

[Prism]

I just realized I missed all of #2995 too, Jesus Christ, I'll do a better review in the morning. I knew I was being lazy but clearly it's costing me more than I thought.

[Prism]

Reading the past page is going to have to wait, I've been busier than I thought which is a common theme but unavoidable. I'm dealing with minor health issues right now which has made it difficult to function normally and really do anything other than bare minimum.

With that in mind if I don't change my mind on DF, and I see no reason to, then I want to get this show on the road ASAP.

[Prism]

If we're talking doublechecking DF it might be worth reading, but in the context of "Picking someone in case Dierfire flips town", unless your name is Implosion I see no reason to worry about that now. It's not like random pages are going to disappear on Day 6.

[Prism]

Preliminary proddodge, I'm trying to make time but you see the results.

[Prism]

Last dodge, I promise.

[Prism]

Okay, have time now, post will come in an hour at the latest. I'll hammer unless something about my thinking changes while I read.

[Prism]

Still reading and thinking.

[Prism]

Reading DF's #2955 makes me more confident in the flip. As usual, I've tried to keep it readable, but given that this is for all the marbles I think it's important that I out reasoning in full.

I don't like DF's certainty on me being town using only what he listed. #2955 points to #2277 for the reasoning on me.

I think that Prism is unlikely to be Mafia given the protracted conflict with Lil Uzi Vert. More powerful than his reasons for voting Lil Uzi Vert is the reaction that Lil Uzi Vert has to those reasons and the way that Prism follows up in conversation. In the quotes below, Prism is pursuing Lil Uzi Vert while Lil Uzi Vert appears to be evading Prism rather than engaging with him, which is an unusual pattern for Mafia partners.

I think his reasoning here for why me/LUV aren't partners is a good one, but given that someone besides boring had to be scum at #2955, I really think this was worth more consideration. Any interaction is fakeable, especially in daystart, and given our current state I find it really difficult for any town to not be paranoid. The follow up:

New this issue: I also find Prism an unlikely partner for boring due to the fact that Prism and boring both voted for Lil Uzi Vert throughout D2. As boring was a major wagon D1, it would not make much sense to me that Lil Uzi Vert would be selected as the target for a committed bus; rather I would read boring's vote as designed to create distance and I would expect that the lack of a significant wagon on boring D2 indicates that the Mafia were not attempting to sacrifice there.

is also really strange to me. I basically saved boring Day 3 by switching to Grendel after I reread in #2545, and I backed off my early scumread of boring pretty early Day 1 (granted that LUV did try to piggyback off it). This is virtually impossible to miss given an ISO of me. The biggest reason I've had internally to be paranoid was that Dierfire townreading me here is strange given his spot on the block. This is a big leap on my end but I suspect it is because you wanted me as the second mislynch rather than the first.

Reading the reasoning on the boring/BlackVoid team I'm also unconvinced. I don't want to focus too much on the LUV portion as it's really speculative but LUV's vote on Shadow was WIFOM city, and if anything I'd imagine him throwing a vote on a different town if he was counting on an Eager mislynch. If Shadow was his partner he'd be the one setting up to go deep-so why bus him Day 2? boring/Shadow flips do a lot more to solidify him as town than an LUV flip did for either of them. I don't consider the "afraid to vote" part to be an active descriptor of someone who flipped his vote to Shadow's cc on a dime. More importantly than the stuff with LUV,

Furthermore, I found that the reaction that Shadow_step had to seeing boring at L-1 (2401 and 2403, no hammer on boring and continues to push the nn30 lynch despite what appears to be a case against boring in 2400) makes Shadow_step more likely to be partners with boring and less likely to be partners with nn30. More recently, I note that boring and Shadow_step have been fighting (2727, 2734, 2846) but without voting in a way that resembles creating distance (for example, Shadow_step claimed to have found my VT claim most suspicious in 2636 and to have preferred to lynch boring in 2639, but kept a vote on nn30 throughout). In fact, Shadow_step never voted for boring, and boring votes Shadow_step in 2704 at a time when the lynch is unpopular (marked opposition from me in 2559, implosion in 2709, Zoronos in 2746, PenguinPower in 2762).

The only thing I really agree on this is about post #2401. The rest really don't seem that suspect to me, Shadow made it clear he thought one of me/boring was mafia but was more sure on nn30. All of this was plausible with Shadow town. Boring's vote on Shadow is basically inviting discussion on the subject of her/Shadow as partners which is the last thing she wants given leading wagons on DF/Grendel and the knowledge that she just barely dodged a lynch prior. Solo scum with deputy and jailer alive is disastrous. The traitor theory in #2955 was interesting but was voided when the game didn't end, and you haven't really given anything to replace that hole in your reasoning since.

I agree that the only major reason to townread Shadow_step in memory was the claim, but you said yourself the claim was sufficient/convincing beforehand. There's reason to doubt that but it feels like there's even more reason to doubt me/nn30, and in particular it bothers me that you've looked so much into casting boring's interactions with Shadow in a negative light but didn't catch the BIG redflag of me fucking up the Day 3 lynch which cost us potential autowin. Even I don't see the reason to have me as your strongest townread, at least not just from the reasons you've given.

I reread Shadow's Day 1 to make sure he really was crumbing ascetic and it definitely looks like it, #169 is the only questionable one I see. That would be a very strong coincidental focus on Eager early, unless he was hoping to just push him in general rather than cc'ing originally. I hate to be mean, especially after I've already made him replace out, but I don't think Shadow is capable of coming up with that cc on the fly as scum, even if he was hoping to do that general push. It seems a lot more expedient to just have boring do the cc rather than risk two, as Shadow himself was the one that said "there can only be one ascetic".

Ever since BlackVoid has replaced in he's played to his own detriment as scum. His townread on me was hasty and is something he will inevitably have to walk back in 3 way to win. It made little sense to give it when Implosion likely would have agreed on me/you going back to back. I don't necessarily agree with BV's reason for me being hard town, because I like to think I would have replaced out as mafia too, but even I have to agree I might not have and either way BV gave a townread that really wasn't to his benefit if he was scum.

You've admitted in post #3086 to other problems with your theory but never really followed up with closing or reconciling it or others left. It really just reads like you've given up today, and sure I expect rhetoric like that as town too since we've all been set on your lynch, but I think the general disinterest in reconciliation of your reads is telling.

IN CONCLUSION, FRIENDS, FELLOW CITIZENS, READERS AND PLAYERS ALIKE OF ALL OF MINI NORMAL #1838

IT'S HAMMER TIME

VOTE: Dierfire

[Prism]

Also jailer+cop/deputy was hella broken with the people who happened to get them, like one VT died at night and scum still nearly got autoloss. Gamma/Zoro were all super lynchable imo, and PP wasn't out of the question. Scum got FUCKED even if they make it to three way.

[Prism]

Sweet heavenly mod in the sky, podoboq, you have been summoned. I, Prism, call you forth. Rise from your slumber, pick up the hammer of destiny, and flip it for all to see and witness its glory. Reveal thyself!

If this flips town I'm calling dibs on the first one to say "Fuck". If it doesn't this post never happened and I also don't look at explosions behind me.

[Prism]

Looking at podo's history it looks like that won't happen for another 6-7 hours. In the meantime here's some 80s hits to jam to. Last post of the night, promise.

[Prism]

I called dibs, so "Fuck."

Jokes aside my attitude yesterday was clearly inappropriate so my apologies, I promise to take today deathly seriously. I'm working on a larger post that isn't finished yet due to time constraints, the tl;dr of what to expect from of it is that nn30 being god is now a real consideration so I'm doing a close read of his one scumgame and I might do the same for Shadow_step. My first inclination is to suspect BV over nn but this is liable to change given the results of my reread-nn30's votes, especially Day 1, and general ability to say the right things at the right time stick out to me as being less likely scumplay than Shadow fakeclaiming, despite my defense of BV in my last post yesterday.

[Prism]

@nn: For most of the game you've given a really hard townread on me for drawing attention to myself, specifically for interrogating the veracity of reads on me. I've readily admitted (I think) that this is something I do as scum as well. (For the record, the reason I do it as town is because it is the easiest thing for me to run through the bullshit detector, and encourages smaller townreads on me to solidify through further thought)

Can you expound a bit on:

1. How much of your desire to vote BV is based on this townread
2. Whether or not any other factors exist in your townread on me and if so what they are

P-Edit: BV's last post serves as a good example of what I mean-my attempt to replace out before cooling down is likely more alignment indicative than I would have liked it to be, but I've repeatedly challenged people all game not to toneread me or townread me for things that are pretty routine/simple to fake. The earlier I get people to dig deeper and double down, the better, both for getting a read on them and for getting townreads on me that aren't easily walked back in LyLo situations

[Prism]

I had started going through nn30's ISO and even on D1, he was very aware of Boring being scum to the point where he already tying other people to Boring. More tomorrow.

My issue with this is that it requires nn trying to bus their Rolecop on Day 1. The possibility of a second scum PR is still there but whatever it is it's not stronger than a Rolecop, especially with two town ascetics already claimed early Day 1.

I'll keep this in mind when I reread but ignoring my getting good vibes from the timing of certain nn posts, the boring vote Day 1 is my single biggest reason for townreading them. IIRC he voted Eager for like 30 minutes but I don't recall backlash being strong enough to justify a reversal (Surely he knew as scum what he was getting himself into). Only other explanation I could see for this if they're scum is that boring wasn't in as much danger as I remembered, but considering LUV offered himself on a platter for her that seems unlikely to be wrong to me.

[Prism]

Sorry, boring was neopolitan which is definitely weaker than a Rolecop, but the point still stands-it's an incredibly powerful role and I don't see nn bussing it Day 1, especially when LUV was obviously desperate to avoid it.

[Prism]

His 3122 was really bad. It came kind of out of nowhere (check his feelings towards Dier previous to making that post).

It seemed pretty consistent to me, rereading he made it clear that he wasn't sure between you and Dierfire. It's an obligatory post to make as scum but it also follows naturally from his prior statements as town.

Right now I'm mulling over the issue of:

I was scumreading Prism all the way up until he said he was going to replace out. I don't think scum would ever do that out of frustration from being caught. It's just poor sportsmanship especially if Shadow had called the scumteam. I get that this may be a controversial reason to have a read but Prism's almost replacing out pretty much confirms him as town for me. But I'm making a note to ISO him just to be sure.

my townread on Prism is mostly based on Prism's replace out so I want to look at Prism's actual play before voting.

This makes me a lot more wary of your intention behind townreading me through the end of yesterday into today. Specifically, you've said today that you needed to doublecheck my play to make sure it matches, but it looks like you've already done that prior and found reason to say it doesn't. You've given your reasoning and your list of reads prior to entering so I don't doubt that it was your legitimate read, but it seems really questionable to me to recognize I'm scummy to you, hit the hard override, then subsequently wonder if my outside play was scummy a week later. It seems like a really easy to just revert to a prior state of scumreading me using your original reasoning and claiming that it's stronger than you originally thought. The only thing scummy from BV so far to me is what I stated above so this 3 way is a lot more about either convincing me you're town or convincing me Shadow showed he was scum.

I get the reason for the original hard override and understand it, but it still doesn't sit right with me despite being rationally consistent. My defense of you yesterday was because I saw no real reason for you to give that townread on me, but your statements here give a very easy way to back out of it depending on the flow of the game.

@Prism - on mobile rn so I Can't really go in depth. Basically you've made earnest efforts to solve the game. I don't really and any opportunistic behavior from you. So as you say - unless you're God at a keyboard you're town. If you are scum I don't deserve to win this game.

I obviously get the intuition behind this but I have all the pieces of my own thought and you don't. This goes double when I regularly slimmed down posts to maximize readability. I don't really feel like it's helpful to ask for examples of which you think are earnest efforts because I think that's a test more of time than of skill as scum to come up with, but I do want something else, because it's been this intangible thing all game. I understand that since a lot of my reasoning on you has been the same, and two townreads never really doubting each other is a powerful thing, but a town and a scum doing it ends in a loss and really I'm just looking for something to assure me that you're not just reflecting my own reasoning back onto me.

[Prism]

The only thing scummy from BV so far to me is what I stated above so this 3 way is a lot more about either convincing me you're town or convincing me Shadow showed he was scum.

This was supposed to go at the very end of that post, directed at nn, rather than in the middle and directed at BV.

[Prism]

Rereading nn's Day 1 I see how it could be an opportunistic vote, as #983, where nn first voted her, is a bit presumptive and is the vote putting her at L-2, but I still am not really sold on it being a bus. If that's all there was, maybe, but nn went ham in #1238 and made repeated posts trying to persuade people like Gamma not to lynch Eager. #1266 is really awkward from boring but she made a lot of awkward posts with basically everyone, and I really liked nn's response to it.

More likely faked than I originally thought? Yeah. Still less likely faked than anything Shadow did? My instinct says yes despite not having reread Shadow in awhile.

[Prism]

Posts like #1251 not really helping my paranoia of nn's read on me but hopefully that'll be cleared up soon.

[Prism]

If Shadow was scum, he likes to fly pretty close to the sun.

That was always my assumption and why I didn't give it serious consideration until today. CC'ing ascetic is incredibly ballsy. The only way it's possible is through scum making gratuitous use of daychat.

Also, his actually subbing out would never happen if he was scum.

Was one of my first thoughts but it was strange to me that he had such a high ego after basically never being right. Despite his statements about "having LUV" he never voted him outside of RVS and boring had yet to flip. His ego made no sense to begin with.

When half the game hates you, you're going to take personal offense regardless of what you are. You're working under the assumption here that I took personal offense despite being scum but not giving the same consideration to Shadow.

I'm not seeing anything town in the first spoiler, #2294 is awful and he spent a decent amount of time trying to get me lynched over boring in #2870, #2882, #2884, and #2888. He only flipped off of you when it became apparent I wasn't budging and it's not really clear when/why he did so if he were town. His appeal to you to lynch me was basically "God you fucking noob can't you understand?" when he literally had no reason whatsoever to be this arrogant. He spent the whole game voting Eager, Gamma, Grendel, and you (nn), and Dierfire-and all but the last two, had flipped town when he was going on his explanationless egokick.

More importantly, why on earth would he replace out if he thought I was scum? Making scum ragequit is a townsperson's wet dream. There's no reason to take offense and replace out when the person you are pushing as scum is taking offense to you supposedly nailing them.

It's obvious he replaced out due to taking personal offense, but this is more likely to happen as mafia, not as town. You replace out if you're feeling disrespected by the town, either as town or mafia, because you're doing what you're supposed to and they're insulting you for it, you don't replace out as town because you think mafia is flailing.

More in a sec.

[Prism]

As for Prism:

The bolded in the first quote reads as helly manipulative.

It's my telling you how to get my vote. I know that you can make the logical connection that voting me is a possibility, but why on earth would I encourage you to? I'm not going to let you bark up the wrong tree all day if it's not going to convince me of anything if you're town, it's not a game of "Keep Away"

He's apparently forgotten 2927, too.

I said it removed all doubt because I was confident it was Dierfire and anyone who reads my yesterday can see that. When it's not Dierfire, that means that yes, I do have to backtrack, because one of my townreads was completely wrong. Me being wrong doesn't mean it's time to scumread myself. This doesn't work as a defense in my favor because it's something I could do as scum too, but it's very clear that I had to know ahead of time that I would be forced to backtrack on one of these reads were I scum.

Re: Second Spoiler
Some great quotes of boring doing the same against me:

Spoiler: Especially the 3rd/4th ones

I don't think Penguin is undeinably rocksolid town but comparing him to people like Implosion, boring, LUV, Gamma, Maria, or even Grendel he might as well be the Pope.

How on earth is PP less scummy than me? Do you have any decent reasons? Or is it just that I actually bothered to elaborate on my Zoro read like ten pages ago?

Either way, it's lovely to know that someone who apparently exists solely to swipe at low-hanging fruit is totally cool with you.

@Prism, I don't get how you can be sitting on the bandwagon I'm leading and say I'm your second most likely scum. It makes no sense at all. I dug through his ISO and made a case today. I named him as probable scum end of day 2 too. If you really think I'm scum, wouldn't that make you question your read on LUV, of vice versa?

VOTE: boring

I do not get the boring townreads at all. Boring was coming off a borderline disastrous Day 1 where she got herself into a 1v1 with someone who flipped town, then had someone who hard scumread her nightkilled. It makes a lot of sense to bus Day 2. Reading boring does nothing to convince me that this isn't the case. The Day 1 pushes people are widely citing are offhanded comments here are there while she pushes someone else. Her end of day suggestion to go on LUV over eager was in #1452, when the vote was 5 eager 3 boring with Eager yet to vote. It was already locked between her and Eager and whether or not she'd lose seemed up in the air. A lot of these newfound townreads on boring are just reflexive reactions to the LUV flip, and at least one of them is coming from scum. I still think Maria dying wasn't a coincidence.

In both these arguments, you're suggesting that I've completely changed my scum-play (and possibly suffered brain damage in the interim). Hard bussing from Day 1 is idiotic. Especially when there are so many bad town running around to provide easy counter wagons. So is killing the person most vocal against you, by the way. Not to mention it being crazy for a scum team to allow that kind of reckless killing pattern.

Then there's this:

I was expecting you to be dead today too, since going for Gamma would be a huge gamble, but here we are. I agree that it would have been unhelpful to block Gamma on his last productive night. I'm thinking that roleblocker is more likely, by the way.

It's unhelpful to block Gamma last night, and thus Zoronos isn't going to do it. She acknowledges this. If a random town knows it scum knows it. Why did she expect a Gamma death?

I can't even.

Okay, assuming that was a typo, and not a senior moment, there's a difference between suspecting and knowing. There's no way that scum would risk a no-kill night. Unless the scum team can't math. Of course, your assumption that I'm scum seems to be based on the belief that I'm stupid, so maybe simple arithmetic is beyond me.

Prism, I'm going to need you to reread my post. I said your argument was crap because it's based on the assumption that I have the intelligence and subtlety of an Easter ham, which, frankly, anyone would find a bit insulting. Either way, it's time to move onto crazy tunnel #4. Maaaaybe PP?

[Prism]

@BV - I think we've been scum reading each other incorrectly. I think that I'm still alive because I'm a bit of a VI (meh...) - Prism felt he could manipulate me with a hard town read on me.

Every death since N1 has been a PR. When did I mastermind time to keep you alive? I could have pushed you in earlier days for a lynch but I didn't because again, you've been a hard townread. At some point I'm going to have to walk back one of the townreads on you/BV if I'm scum. In that scenario this three way was decided eons ago and I've had weeks to plan it. Hard townreading anyone is a dangerous game, because of cases like this, and because of me being forced by way of being dead wrong to reconsider statements I made with certainty day/days ago.

This means a lot less because it's coming from me but after being tipped off looking for her behaving aggressively towards me, just look at the way boring interacted with me repeatedly.

Spoiler: Lots of quotes

Honestly, I think Prism's copy-cat thing seems a little petty to be the main issue leading to a primary scum read. I've thought LUV was scum most of the game thus far, and I've been glad for the company on his wagon, but I wish Prism was a little less near-sighted with his reasoning.

This is directly discrediting my read on LUV and encouraging me to rethink it without actually coming out against his lynch.

I think the weirdest thing about Prism yesterday, aside from his odd reasoning on LUV, was that he didn't seem bat an eye over LUV's Doc claim. That said, he's still a town lean.

More discrediting even when he flipped scum, but makes it clear she doesn't want to 1v1 me (To see why, who wins if she tries?)

I already linked #2286. She tries to basically shame me into getting off of her and make me doubt myself. It didn't work and immediately she becomes more amicable in future posts as she realizes she's more likely to get results that way:

Prism, I'm going to need you to reread my post. I said your argument was crap because it's based on the assumption that I have the intelligence and subtlety of an Easter ham, which, frankly, anyone would find a bit insulting. Either way, it's time to move onto crazy tunnel #4. Maaaaybe PP?

@Prism, thank you for understanding, somewhat. Please, do me a favor and give me a tl;dr of the items you feel I've left unaddressed. I'll do my best to go over them one-by-one.

We have plenty of time, so there's no need to rush my lynch. (well, I'd understand PP's urgency, but most of the rest of you can afford the time).

@prism - I don't remember if you've been asked this already. I get that you're all gungho on the boring wagon today, but how are you feeling about PP? If I was off the table, how willing are you to lynch him?

1) It appears that people are using their claim list as a scum-to-town reads list, in which case, here's mine: Penguin, Shadow (already claimed), Dierfire, nn30/Grendel, Prism, Implosion/Zoronos (already claimed).

Why am I so high on this given that you thought my points about you were nonsense, and my reads are close to the reverse of yours?

First, I wouldn't describe our reads as reverse. Yours was Grendel, boring, PenguinPower, Dierfire, Shadow, nn30, which reads like scrambled eggs to me.

Second, thinking you're way off base is different from thinking you're scum. Regardless your rank is less a reflection of you, and more a reflection of the game-state. I think Penguin is the most likely scum, followed by Shadow. Close after that is Dier, whose neutral/null play is concerning. Then nn30's and Grendel's ranks are a bit of a concession to the VCA and POE arguments that can't all be generated by scum. Though while the arguments against nn30 are more likely generated by scum than those against Grendel, nn30 worries me a tiny bit, independently. Though, certainly not enough to leap over my already-bursting scum pool. You're next because you've got nothing particularly scummy going on, and you've banked a few towny moves. Implosion and Zoronos are obviously the highest town, as they're confirmed, and unchallenged JK, respectively.

You have been off in your own world with your cases and reads, which I think indicates a town motivation. Not only that, but you are clearly shooting in the dark, which also indicates town. I know I'm projecting somewhat, but I think you'd be swim more toward the middle if you were scum.

Again trying to loosen my grip while qualifying her stance on me.

-I don't get most people's reaction to Grendel, the past few pages of his are all over the place and it reads as trying to dodge autoloss at any cost.

I'm not seeing it. When you have more time, can you explain what you mean?

Sees me being wrong on Grendel and pushes me further along the path while tagging along.

Alright, that basically removes any doubt I had about the Shadow slot. Black gave that list in 30 mins, there's no way he faked it. Those reads were legit and I doubt it was convenient to keep the same reads as scum. Maybe he could have gone back and revised just one/two but there's no way the whole thing is fake.

He could very well have made a couple easy tweaks to his "stream of consciousness". Regardless, how long would it take to type something like that up? 5 minutes, if you have an excuse not to edit. There's nothing original in there, either. His every post thus far is middle-of-the-road designed to appease our lovely conf. town.

My gut says it's Black Void. Here's why:

Sure, I can post the stream-of-consciousness notes I took in excel. Not sure how helpful it'll be to read me since I did them all before receiving my role PM but it'll help you see my reasoning.

If you're reading a game and you don't have a role pm, you're a ghost with a town's perspective.

This quote suggests that Black Void's reading of the game changed when he received his role pm - suggesting he received a scum pm.

Thoughts?

I makes me question why you're on my wagon with him if you think he has ulterior motives. Since it's clearly unlikely that I'm SvS with that slot, why not vote Dierfire? He's likely scum in either scenario (me or Blackvoid), and it gives you time to decide what to do next.

We need to have as many scum lynches as town in order to survive to the end (preferably more scum than town!), so we need to lynch the player that's in nearly everyone's bottom two by POE (i.e., DIERFIRE).

p-edit: I started writing this like an hour ago and got distracted. In the meantime, i was ninja'd by like 5 or so posts. Hopefully I haven't posted moot. I'm too pressed for time to read again. I'll try to be back tomorrow. Sorry.

Takes the time to take us to WIFOM city knowing she's going down, her next post is the hammer WIFOM.

Those wound up being a little bit more than just showing her interactions with me but you get the idea. She tried pretty desperately to get me to loosen grip on her, switching even the way she was addressing me when I showed I was more willing to work with her that way (to no avail for her). This doesn't happen in a world with daychat and outlined expectations of what each other are doing.

I still think Dierfire presented a pretty good reason for why I'm town with his analysis of the LUV interactions-LUV trying to evade me and hope nobody listens rather than addressing me directly was telling. While I wound up saving boring with a Grendel lynch Day 3, I don't think any of my interactions with her/LUV were scum interactions or indicative of me bussing. Of course I'm going to think that, but this is my attempt to back that up from a more objective standpoint, whether it's successful or not.

[Prism]

I also want to know how I went from "God behind a keyboard" to "Probably scum" so quickly. The replace out reasoning you gave applies better in reverse against Shadow, and is less likely to come from me as scum as BV pointed out. You didn't even look at boring's interactions with me.

Really not doing wonders for my paranoia that your townread on me was just pingponging it back to me. You've used the same phrasing but clearly have a different mindset about it, my mindset is hard to explain but when I find something incriminating with you my first instinct is to find something that must balance it out or point to it being less than I think, rather than not comparing it to anything at all and taking it at surface level.

[Prism]

Regarding your replace out, everyone wants to be townread for their awesome play and not because of some silly reason like saying they replaced out. But when something like that happens, as town I can't ignore it. I really don't think that if you and Boring were the scumteam and Shadow kept insisting that you be lynched back to back (even if he was a little overconfident about it), I think you'd find some way to wiggle out of it rather than decide to replace out because you got caught. But as town, I could see you in the heat of the moment thinking "that's it, I'm done with this guy" and post a replace out request.

I understand why even if it's not my favorite, I'm not disputing that it's a valid read.

As far as your play, Prism, while I was reading the thread as a spectator, I thought you were probably scum. I stopped reading closely somewhere near the end of D1. I remember second-guessing my original Boring-Prism-LUV scumteam guess when I saw you and Boring pushing LUV together. I wondered if he might be town being pushed by scum but he flipped scum. Boring was a very strong scumread so that remained but I wasn't sure if you were scum or if someone I was townreading was but I felt that I was most likely wrong in my initial guess. I wasn't writing everything down because I thought I might not get a chance to play because of how active everyone was.

It's not about posting an "easily retractable reason" and then rescinding it. Honestly, as scum I wouldn't even have bothered mentioning that. I haven't actually rescinded my townread on you. My feeling is still the same. The only reason I'm reading the thread is that this is 3-way lylo and it would be irresponsible to vote without thoroughly considering the possibility of you being scum.

I realize you haven't retracted it-I'm stating why I don't townread you as strongly as I did towards the end of yesterday. You can wind up retracting your townread on me and still wind up town, and you can wind up keeping it and still be scum. My problem with your prior post is that it seemed to forget that the first part of this was true, ie. you should expect to find the reread scummy FYPOV. I'm wary of basically recycling your old reasoning but now saying "Oh yeah but it overpowers the replace out attempt now" (whereas before it was the opposite). This is all speculative on my end-the point is that I townread you for it before, but now I'm the one walking it back.

[Prism]

If you're town - you have to understand that it is in both of our best interests to sufficiently vet one another.

That post wasn't just vetting me, it was a complete flip.

If you're scum - this vague 'quit scum reading me or else' threat isn't going to work.

It's again me telling you that I think you've been reflecting my own read/reasoning on you back to me, and that I want more. I've said it 3x now.

[Prism]

To flip this back, if you're town, you're not realizing that my vote is not a given in your favor. That post didn't even try to consider me as town, which is weird as fuck for someone who supposedly shared my sentiment that you had to be town.

[Prism]

I actually agree that I don't think Shadow would have been frustrated in quite the same manner if he were scum. I wouldn't say it's the strongest reason I've townread him. It's his general demeanor and high confidence as well as how hard and how genuinely he pushed that Eager lynch that I found most town when I didn't know his alignment.

I disagree strongly on the Shadow replace out point. I didn't really think that much of it until nn brought it up but after chewing on it for the past few days it makes less and less sense for me as for why he replaced out if he were town.

If he's town who thinks he's nailed the scum he's got scum flailing and even trying to replace out out of frustration with him. While I wasn't the only one hounding him, nn was too, it's apparent based off the followup post that he did it with me in mind.

His post itself is completely bullshit. It's possible he was really that delusional but who on earth reads Shadow's ISO and agrees with this conclusion:

I can't take this constant misrep and insult of my play when I'm not being arrgant or cocky at all. I can't help it if people perceive it that way.

Some highlights of Shadow's humble play:

Don't want to start a dick measuring contest, but I'm better than you at Mafia. And nowhere near useless as shit. Get your head out of your ass.

:facepalm:

Why are you so horrible at seeing the obvious.
Gawd I hate newbies.

And the post nn keeps referring to, coming right after explaining how he hasn't been arrogant at all all game:

Also, playing with clueless newbies like nn isn't really thrilling either.

There was again 0 reason for him to ever be this arrogant as town. He never voted or led on mafia, being on town wagon after town wagon. He spent the whole game tunneling nn, taking eons to switch.

It is again possible that he really was this delusional/forgetful about his own statements, but given the context of the replace out I'm finding it unlikely. He's nailed me in his eyes, he's got me flailing, why replace out? Why is he taking so much offense to something scum is saying to discredit him? Why is he even this arrogant to begin with?

He obviously thought he was doing his job and doing it very well and getting trashed for it. He wasn't doing his job well all game unless he was mafia, and thinking he was doing well at that instant just makes replacing out make less sense. Possible explanations for doing this as scum are 1. Feeling prideful because as scum he would be doing a great job and was just getting trashed for it, which grates on any player 2. Recognizing he was ruining the game for me and taking trying to piss me/nn off too far. I imagine it's a bit of a combination but probably moreso #1 if the Shadow/BV slot is scum.

[Prism]

My scumread on Prism was based mostly off of his Implosion push. Contrary to most of the game, I thought Implosion was not only town but one of the few voices of sanity that was making sense in a chaotic game. I looked at any case on him negatively and at some points, even wondered if Zoronos was hamming it on pointlessly complaining about Implosion writing words but not saying much - when in reality, he was saying a lot of good stuff.

I can't remember exactly what it was that pinged me on Implosion because it was so long ago but in general I'm very wary of making sense as being a towntell. Implosion was noticeably competent, and a lot of his posts were reaching vastly different conclusions from my own or making distinctions that I didn't agree with. The one that I most remember is that he scumread someone for inconsistency even when that inconsistency was much more likely from a town perspective-and later he affirmed that inconsistency itself wasn't a scumtell. He was rational and is good at the game, but neither of those decided his role PM, and everyone else was giving him largely a free pass for those things.

But most people had other reasons for me thinking they were town. Prism didn't have that. He replaced into a lurky slot and made pushes I didn't like D1. D2, he started making a lot more sense. The LUV push was what eroded my scumfeels for him.

This isn't consistent with what you said when you first replaced in:

I was scumreading Prism all the way up until he said he was going to replace out. I don't think scum would ever do that out of frustration from being caught. It's just poor sportsmanship especially if Shadow had called the scumteam. I get that this may be a controversial reason to have a read but Prism's almost replacing out pretty much confirms him as town for me. But I'm making a note to ISO him just to be sure.

Your reaction to nn is what I expect out of you as both alignments.

[Prism]

The biggest reason for me to townread the BV/Shadow slot is still the ascetic claim itself so I'm probably going to go over that some more soon.

[Prism]

To flip this back, if you're town, you're not realizing that my vote is not a given in your favor. That post didn't even try to consider me as town, which is weird as fuck for someone who supposedly shared my sentiment that you had to be town.

@Prism - if I'm the last remaining scum and I read this from a townie:

The only thing scummy from BV so far to me is what I stated above so this 3 way is a lot more about either convincing me you're town or convincing me Shadow showed he was scum.

I'd say 'yeah mean, I'm town look at me! oooohhhh look how scummy BV is!'

And then I'd take that check and cash it at the bank for a free Win.

By creating my best scum case on you, I've taken that olive branch and thrown it to the ground. I'm taking the path of least resistance and, frankly, you should be town reading me for it.

Your above quote DOES mean that if I wanted to I could have taken your vote on BV for granted. I didn't do that.

That quote directly says that you have to do more to earn the vote and that's it's not a given. It's directly telling you that convincing me that something BV did Day 5 was scummy was likely a waste of time and giving you clear goals telling you what I'm looking for. Nothing about that says that I'm autovoting outside you.

@BV - Take a look back at Prism's ISO. His first post of the game 488 is a vote for Boring, then his second post of the game (591) contains a weak walk back on his scum read of Boring, possible FoS on LUV, and a vote for Implosion.

For him to enter the game, peg two scum in the way that he did, and end up on the Eager wagon (1042) is bizarre.

I hadn't fully caught up with the game yet and had just voted based off the first post I didn't like. I got my Implosion scumread (just explained a bit of it to BV) and went for it with full force. As far as LUV goes, again may I direct you to Day 2 where I powertunneled LUV and boring tried to discredit my read on LUV without actually removing herself from the wagon. My vote on Eager was due to me also thinking that two town ascetics was unlikely (thinking Eager flipped scum ascetic and assumed he was the only one). I made it clear that I thought that either Eager was scum or both

He began D3 with a fairly strong scum read on Boring (2278). Yet, directly following that vote, he spends 2336 a lot 2338 of time 2421 and energy 2423 on other people 2472 until finally he switches over to Grendel 2545.

The chain of posts I just linked to were in chronological order starting with his vote for Boring in 2278 and ended with his vote on Grendel in 2545.

For somebody who felt strong enough to vote for Boring, he didn't spend a whole lot of time trying to gather votes onto her. He mostly just argues with other people about unrelated things.

This isn't true at all.

#2236 is almost entirely dedicated to boring, with only the first and last quotes being unrelated. The rest is all me questioning/explaining my read to boring, telling you why I didn't agree with your townread on boring, and encouraging Zoronos to reconsider his read.

#2238 was purposely separated from #2236, people were pushing you over boring and I wanted to make it clear I wasn't going to go along. "Thank god for Implosion" is also referencing him coming back and voting boring, because nobody else was agreeing with me until he rolled in 3-4 posts before.

#2421 also dedicates significant time towards explaining more of my scumread on her to boring and more convincing Zoronos boring is mafia. The only thing unrelated is me trying to convince Shadow to stop tunneling you...again so he'll vote boring.

#2423 is a direct response to Shadow and still is me trying to convince him boring is scum.

#2472 is the only one completely unrelated and it was to give Shadow an ego check because he was making it impossible to work with him, and the posts that you've linked here show that I tried very hard to.

I'm not going to dispute that my Grendel read was off the mark, he was the first person I got a chance to reread between him and Dierfire and I found a shit ton I didn't like, and it wound up costing us a lot, and that's my fault. I've been the first to own up to me likely costing us the win that day and have listed it myself as a reason against me. The biggest thing I can say here is to actually go through and evaluate my reasoning on Grendel and see that it's coming from a town point of view. This is what I've been saying all game.

This line of play could obviously come from town. But... the more I read it the more it feels scummy to me.

You didn't even read them.

[Prism]

@Prism - your entire feeling towards shadow in 3149 is predicated on Shadow having enough self-awareness to know how arrogant he was being.

He did not have this self-awareness.

No it doesn't. The point of it is that he had no reason to be that arrogant to begin with as town, consciously or not, and he had no reason to take that level of offense to me as town given that I was his scumread. This doesn't respond to that point at all.

[Prism]

Scumread it for AtE all you want but yes, if you're mafia you probably should have just taken the olive branch and tried to work with it, because your case on me sucks, the first one still didn't even try to consider counterpoints in my favor, the second one you didn't read any of the posts you linked.

[Prism]

Still waiting on a response to any of #3154-#3158, the only thing you responded to was the lowhanging fruit of explaining why you're making a case on me which didn't even answer the question.

[Prism]

I made it clear that I thought that either Eager was scum or both were town

EBWOP, obviously this has become less certain to me since the DF flip but I'm explaining my Day 1

[Prism]

Sorry to post so many times in a row but a bonus from #2236 before I ISO'd Grendel:

You've been basically in the middle to bottom half of the game, and I've made it explicit that I intend to vote you today if I can't get boring. If boring is town, you are almost certainly scum by PoE. If boring is scum, you are still a very likely candidate for the partner.

You didn't even acknowledge repeated announcements for you as a potential alternative lynch, both today and yesterday. I'm not just not whiteknighting you, I'm straight up more on the offense. Between this and 2-3 other posts that appear unconcerned as to what I'm actually thinking, and boring pushing a PP lynch, you've definitely earned the second spot. I'll ISO you sometime tomorrow night.

[Prism]

Prism - you're quoting everything I'm saying and replying with 'nuh uh!'

Stop that.

Because all of it is bullshit.

Why didn't you read any of the posts you linked?

[Prism]

I'm not going to "chill", if you're town I want an explanation and if you're scum I'm going to sink my teeth into you. Stop dodging and respond to me.

[Prism]

I did read them.

Mentioning Boring/talking to Boring and pushing townies to vote for boring are not the same thing.

No, you haven't, even when I've explained why.

These are all in the posts you quoted:

p-edit - not even how early she wanted LUV on day one

I think it means nothing when it was halfhearted at best up until Day 2.

Boring (wanted LUV's booty for two days)

I really, really don't feel like this is the case. When was the last time you ISO'd it? I see no realistic pushing on LUV until boring was a 50/50 for the lynch.

I find scum tend to mark their scum buddies as 'neutral' and will constantly express mild to moderate suspicion on them *while not pushing them*. That is classic distancing. "Yeah A is scummy but let's all vote B" is scum play 101. So those things you flag as 'breadcrumbs' to me are potential setups to join the bus in case LUV goes down. Which is basically what happened yesterday. Those were specifically the things that led me to conclude he might be scum with LUV.

What you are describing is what boring did Day 1 with LUV.

What is the rest of the case, beyond 'a bunch of town voted for her D1'?

I guess I'm missing the thrust of the case kinda other than the bussing part but maybe I'm the dumb.

Only speaking for me but a few of the reasons I'm voting her are:
-Maria death
-Acknowledging why Gamma wouldn't be jailed but claims to be confused about why he died
-Voting LUV with me really doesn't convince me given the timing. LUV did something incredibly scummy and it doesn't take a town to see that. This may be confirmation bias speaking but a lot of her votes both today and other days seem opportunistic, ex. #1763 gives the possibility of her switching to Gamma. Kind of hypocritical of me to point out as I've said numerous times to make sure your vote is somewhere it counts, but the who it is question is still there.
-LUV voting Shadow then quickhammering Eager rather than just voting one of Eager/boring in a natural way to begin with is really strange if they're both town.
-Part of it is just me staring blankly at my computer, blankly looking at the names Dierfire/Grendel/boring/PenguinPower, and asking myself who's the most likely scum out of the 4.

As far as your read on boring/me goes-I don't really get the dichotomy but going with it: What incentive do I have to bus LUV that boring doesn't? If anything boring had everything I did, and a lot more.

[Prism]

For those of you keeping track at home, double bussing on Day 2 with a claimed cop and later that day a claimed JK while town still has 3 lynches to burn is not conducive to winning the game as mafia.

[Prism]

I'm clearly getting way too heated about this in the moment so I'm going to step away for the night but yes, if you're town, you need to read what I'm typing and actually respond to it, because yes it matters, because I'm doing a fuck of a lot more than just saying "nuh uh", and I don't see how you could possibly hold the opinions you're having if you read them.

I'll be back tomorrow.

P-Edit: Already ahead of you but it's really hard not to treat it as an affront to my existence when from my perspective I can't see it as anything other than hogwash.

[Prism]

I don't have a lot of time the next few days so my apologies. I'll try to be as active as I can (but hopefully less so than I was last night).

Reflecting on last night, I did understand even then that I typed up a huge wall and that you (nn) were interested in BV's opinion, but fundamentally I think your points were atrocious, and those walls were me expressing that. Some of them weren't important and some were, ones that were important were in quick memory: not even trying to consider things from the perspective of me town (like you did for BV, with one example being the boring interactions but there were others), not even reading the posts you linked/giving a distinction that just reinforced that, stomping on an olive branch doesn't mean much when the olive branch never existed (Me saying "You have to do this to win my vote" is not telling you you already have my vote). I definitely wasn't just saying "nuh uh" and feel strongly that I made points that can't be denied even if I'm the one they're coming from.

I realize it's a lot to ask but yeah, I still want a response to them. A lot of the paragraphs are clearly not needing a response (ex. My explanation for Grendel, my explanation of my opening votes on boring/implosion) but a lot of them, like the ones listed above, I expect a response to. If it's unclear what those things are, I can try and list them another day. It would probably do wonders for clarity given how long those posts were/how frustrated I was when I made them but I don't have time to do it right now.

I think he didn't want people to replace out on his account and would rather do it himself as a courtesy. If I were in his place and I pushed someone really hard, they get mad at me and post a replace out request, my reaction would be to apologize or to offer to replace out myself. It wouldn't be "haha, I pressured scum so hard they cracked and now they want to replace out." That kind of thought process would be ridiculous and I have no idea why you'd expect Shadow to think that way.

I think that's also a solid possibility, and was my first assumption was that it was entirely out of courtesy for me. I'm now reevaluating that assumption. Why wouldn't he think that way given that I was scum misrepping him in his eyes? I can definitely see it given his attitude throughout the game (I had this scum fuck, fucking noobs, why does everyone suck, etc.) It's strange to replace out for your scumread's sake, and all game Shadow showed he didn't give a damn about other people's feelings or perspective.

You're kidding, right? Do you really think he'd perceive himself the same way you perceive him? Everyone has their own perspective of themselves. Just because you believe someone is arrogant doesn't mean they agree with you and also think of themselves as arrogant.

My point isn't that he was lying. My point is that he had no reason to be that arrogant as town, especially unconsciously. I don't think he was conscious of it, in fact. He literally never voted mafia except for his RVS vote on LUV. Where on earth was that attitude coming from? It's weird to envision with that history thinking they were rocking the game as hard as Shadow thought he was rocking the game.

To be explicit because I feel this is misinterpreting what I'm saying, I'm not saying Shadow replacing out or being arrogant was a huge scumtell. I think it's possible for both to have happened with him as town-but thinking about it it makes a lot of sense as scum, too. If he's scum he was playing great, only to be getting shit on 24/7 for doing his job exceptionally and treated like a VI, and that attitude makes a lot more sense. Replacing out because your strongest scumread hates you is noticeably weirder.

It's against him in my mind, yeah, but this isn't an airtight case in my book, and I wouldn't be surprised either if Shadow is scum yet my speculation is entirely wrong. The main reasons I'd vote against you now is for my nn townread, despite it being on the decline, and to a lesser extent the interactions with boring that I didn't like and finally what I've brought up here.

[Prism]

Thought I had already explained more on the nn read but I'll revisit it later. For now do you understand what I'm saying about Shadow? (Even though I know you won't agree.)

@BV - check my join date, and read through my 1 completed scum game.

I recall that you said you'd do a meta dive - I don't think that you ever gave the results of that dive.

I think that if you read my completed scum game and compare it to this game I behave much more boldly (and erratically) in this game than that game.

That was me, and I did pick up on the increased aggressiveness in this game, or rather how much you bent over backwards in your other game (#133 was the one that stuck out to me). One of the reasons it's taken longer (besides me obviously getting entangled elsewhere in the game) is because whereas at first I thought that style of posts was nonexistent in your scumgame, when I saw #174 which suggested that it was more complex than it first seemed. Glancing through now I don't see any others as aggressive but the fact that my initial conclusion was wrong is the reason it's taken so long, but I agree that so far it points to you being town. It's expected that you'd play the games differently even if you were scum in both but that's not what I'm looking for here.

[Prism]

Big timecrunch, my priority right now is meta dive but if there's something you want me to look at let me know. This has been my first forum game in eons so I didn't have an idea of how to time manage well at all so my apologies.

On my end the thing I want is the nn response (BV should probably give his thoughts on it too) but I understand the time difficulties

[Prism]

Dodging

[Prism]

Just a heads up that I can't get to anything until around 7 pm EST on Friday.

@nn30: I haven't gotten a chance to go over your post completely, but yes, you almost certainly should respond to my posts, I can tl;dr them on Friday if you want. (Don't have time now to review and make sure I'm not missing anything)

[Prism]

Hey everyone, my posts today are going to be a little bit later. I'm still going to get to them sometime tonight because we're getting close to the deadline, but I can't right now.

I didn't hear the best news today. My apologies.

[Prism]

I'm sorry, I know I've said so many times I've been going to reread only to procrastinate, and especially promised to tonight because we're getting so close to deadline and I haven't done all I wanted, but I was really blown away by something unexpected, and this is one of those days you want to have woken up and had never happen.

I really will get to it in the morning, but I can't think straight right now.

[Prism]

I'm not really sure what to make of nn's meta and trying to sort it has just served as a point of confusion rather than a point of bringing clarity.. Newbie #1741 is the game I'm talking about here.

The scum sample size is one game and nn has gotten noticeably a lot better as a player since it. but from what I see nn's attitude in general has been very different. I gave some of my original thoughts in a prior post:

That was me, and I did pick up on the increased aggressiveness in this game, or rather how much you bent over backwards in your other game (#133 was the one that stuck out to me). One of the reasons it's taken longer (besides me obviously getting entangled elsewhere in the game) is because whereas at first I thought that style of posts was nonexistent in your scumgame, when I saw #174 which suggested that it was more complex than it first seemed. Glancing through now I don't see any others as aggressive but the fact that my initial conclusion was wrong is the reason it's taken so long, but I agree that so far it points to you being town. It's expected that you'd play the games differently even if you were scum in both but that's not what I'm looking for here.

#174 was really the only post of its kind as far as aggression goes, nn has been significantly more aggressive this game but some of that can be chalked up to just the sheer fact that we had to deal with Shadow for awhile (ex. #1549)
nn liked to push on inconsistencies that game, ex. this post, and posts like #542 in this game do the same but seem a lot better thought out and more precise about what made it a tell, and in general makes a lot of sense to me in hindsight even though I can no longer remember the read I had on Gamma.

The more useful thing to me was just a chance to go over more of nn's posts. #542 above is one I liked, but there is a whole host of posts large and small trying to get a boring lynch, in particular #1238 (a promised case a few hours before if people would hold off on hammering eager) and when he still didn't switch in #1473. I'm not going to go through and make links for them/quote them all because that'd take all day, but you can look at the ISO for yourself. There was a point at which nn said something along the lines of "When boring flips red, we need to take a hard look at Shadow" which is sketchy in hindsight, as it looks like it could be setting up for an Eager/Shadow back to back mislynch, but nn later winds it back and agrees to work with Shadow when he really didn't need to. There's a lot more to this, such as the tone being off in some posts but really on in others and me thinking it's a me problem, but in general I still am leaning nn town. He pushed boring Day 1, he continued to push her a bit even in possible autoloss (though there were two posts trying to get me/Implosion on Grendel). He pivoted after the LUV flip but posts like this #2279 are not the type of posts I'm expecting from a scum partner here, and he comes around pretty quickly by #2354.

I agree that nn's reads this week have been really strange, and I'll get to that in a second, but really this feels more like just waiting for me/nn to implode given the sequences on pages 127 & 128 more than anything else. You're asking nn why he's not rereading, despite the fact he just did a pretty significant one on me/Shadow even though it was incomplete, and you've yet to really give the results of any of yours. I'm failing to see what makes nn's prior days scummy.

[Prism]

As for what I want you to answer nn this is the thing that bothers me the most:

He began D3 with a fairly strong scum read on Boring (2278). Yet, directly following that vote, he spends 2336 a lot 2338 of time 2421 and energy 2423 on other people 2472 until finally he switches over to Grendel 2545.

The chain of posts I just linked to were in chronological order starting with his vote for Boring in 2278 and ended with his vote on Grendel in 2545.

For somebody who felt strong enough to vote for Boring, he didn't spend a whole lot of time trying to gather votes onto her. He mostly just argues with other people about unrelated things.

This isn't true at all.

#2236 is almost entirely dedicated to boring, with only the first and last quotes being unrelated. The rest is all me questioning/explaining my read to boring, telling you why I didn't agree with your townread on boring, and encouraging Zoronos to reconsider his read.

#2238 was purposely separated from #2236, people were pushing you over boring and I wanted to make it clear I wasn't going to go along. "Thank god for Implosion" is also referencing him coming back and voting boring, because nobody else was agreeing with me until he rolled in 3-4 posts before.

#2421 also dedicates significant time towards explaining more of my scumread on her to boring and more convincing Zoronos boring is mafia. The only thing unrelated is me trying to convince Shadow to stop tunneling you...again so he'll vote boring.

#2423 is a direct response to Shadow and still is me trying to convince him boring is scum.

#2472 is the only one completely unrelated and it was to give Shadow an ego check because he was making it impossible to work with him, and the posts that you've linked here show that I tried very hard to.

I'm not going to dispute that my Grendel read was off the mark, he was the first person I got a chance to reread between him and Dierfire and I found a shit ton I didn't like, and it wound up costing us a lot, and that's my fault. I've been the first to own up to me likely costing us the win that day and have listed it myself as a reason against me. The biggest thing I can say here is to actually go through and evaluate my reasoning on Grendel and see that it's coming from a town point of view. This is what I've been saying all game.

This line of play could obviously come from town. But... the more I read it the more it feels scummy to me.

You didn't even read them.

I did read them.

Mentioning Boring/talking to Boring and pushing townies to vote for boring are not the same thing.

No, you haven't, even when I've explained why.

These are all in the posts you quoted:

p-edit - not even how early she wanted LUV on day one

I think it means nothing when it was halfhearted at best up until Day 2.

Boring (wanted LUV's booty for two days)

I really, really don't feel like this is the case. When was the last time you ISO'd it? I see no realistic pushing on LUV until boring was a 50/50 for the lynch.

I find scum tend to mark their scum buddies as 'neutral' and will constantly express mild to moderate suspicion on them *while not pushing them*. That is classic distancing. "Yeah A is scummy but let's all vote B" is scum play 101. So those things you flag as 'breadcrumbs' to me are potential setups to join the bus in case LUV goes down. Which is basically what happened yesterday. Those were specifically the things that led me to conclude he might be scum with LUV.

What you are describing is what boring did Day 1 with LUV.

What is the rest of the case, beyond 'a bunch of town voted for her D1'?

I guess I'm missing the thrust of the case kinda other than the bussing part but maybe I'm the dumb.

Only speaking for me but a few of the reasons I'm voting her are:
-Maria death
-Acknowledging why Gamma wouldn't be jailed but claims to be confused about why he died
-Voting LUV with me really doesn't convince me given the timing. LUV did something incredibly scummy and it doesn't take a town to see that. This may be confirmation bias speaking but a lot of her votes both today and other days seem opportunistic, ex. #1763 gives the possibility of her switching to Gamma. Kind of hypocritical of me to point out as I've said numerous times to make sure your vote is somewhere it counts, but the who it is question is still there.
-LUV voting Shadow then quickhammering Eager rather than just voting one of Eager/boring in a natural way to begin with is really strange if they're both town.
-Part of it is just me staring blankly at my computer, blankly looking at the names Dierfire/Grendel/boring/PenguinPower, and asking myself who's the most likely scum out of the 4.

As far as your read on boring/me goes-I don't really get the dichotomy but going with it: What incentive do I have to bus LUV that boring doesn't? If anything boring had everything I did, and a lot more.

This is a complete mischaracterization of my posts, and you even followed up by defending it further, and I find them practically impossible to miss unless you already knew what conclusion you were going to draw to begin with. This doesn't seem like someone who read my posts thinking I was town, this reads like someone who wanted a reason to scumread me and took the first one they thought of. I think the way I phrased it in one post put it best, the rest of your game reads very town, but that case on me reads like you didn't even try to consider me as being town, despite thinking I was all game and regurgitating my "town or god at a keyboard" line. I also really didn't like the olive branch case for why you were town, because as BV said it seemed like a power play, especially coupled with the ??? case on me.

Most of the posts were me angrily defending myself or tearing into your case for Shadowtown, and reading them I think will be helpful, but I don't think they're anything requiring response in hindsight.

[Prism]

Prism, I want to draw your attention to 3122 once more - but this time read starting at the beginning of the day (starts on 3045). This was his first meaningful contribution to the day beyond 'I'm going to re-read and get to it later.' BV basically lurked his way through the day, waited for town to talk itself into lynching another townie, and then hopped on at the last minute in 3122 with some weak attempt to join the consensus (which he did absolutely nothing to help form).

Today, he's even stolen some of the same logic his predecessor (at least, I think it was Shadow) used to scum read me.

The previous use was when Boring was still alive. Shadow (I think) used VCA to point at the wagon full of dead townies, and me, and say 'whelp I doubt that the entire wagon was made of townies, NN must be scum then.

Now that Boring is dead he's just recycling it.

Most of his attempts to scum read me are cherry picking events and interpreting them through the lens of conf-bias. He's not actually trying to get at the motivation of anything - he's just stating plausible ways that a scum!Nn30 would have made that move. It's not an attempt to solve the game - it's just weak.

I get the first paragraph and can definitely see how scum BV makes the posts (especially with the lukewarm approach to DF that can indicate prior knowledge of the flip) but don't really find them convincing that he was scum. I don't think asserting that it wasn't an all town wagon is damning, either, even though I think it was an all town wagon.

My biggest issue here is that you're skeptical of BV going through the motions and forcibly mashing in the puzzle pieces until they fit the narrative, but to me this just makes me think of your case on me, because that's definitely something you were doing there, town or not.

P-Edit: Your Zoro post reads more like setup speculation and your Grendel post gives reasons for both alignments before saying you leaned town on him. Your post on me didn't read to me like considering things from the perspective of me being town. (Ex. Didn't look at boring's reaction to me like you did for yourself/BV, didn't give my posts towards boring a fair light) I don't think these are the same at all.

[Prism]

I feel like both of these are again gross mischaracterizations, as a nicer way of saying flat out false, and by default someone is doing it as town. Both my posts today and in prior days are being regularly misinterpreted or ignored. Cut it out.

I'll have more explanation later.

[Prism]

That one I can respond to without being at a computer-that one's not a misinterpretation, ignoring boring was entirely purposeful. I saw no reason to get into an extended dialogue with one of my scumreads-her opinion didn't matter to me. Instead I spent my time advocating her lynch to Zoronos and others and explaining it that way. Her opinion was the last one I cared about. If I had spent more time talking to her, you'd probably just label it bussing.

I didn't dodge the boring issue, I dodged boring. Nobody is going to vote boring because of what I say to boring. However, they might vote boring because of what I say to them about boring.

[Prism]

ie. That one you're actually right on but you're drawing the completely wrong conclusion. I didn't care to distance from boring, I just wanted her lynched.

@BV - Re: Bussing seeming foreign to me: Check out my 29 and 48 from the scum PT. I discuss my feelings on bussing with my partner.

viewtopic.php?f=90&t=68401&start=25

D1 of this game (podoboq's mini normal) went from October 4th - October 16th. My comments in the scum PT of my completed game occurred on October 3rd and October 19th - so approximately the same time frame.

This is some next level shit, I didn't even think to compare the dates here.

Despite the mischaracterization I'm 99% sure (mildly exaggerated) it's nn town and will probably vote soon.

[Prism]

It's a litte bit different than the game due to 3 scum vs 2 but I don't know how you can justify this scum nn as likely:

"I think bussing is overrated" "Don't start it on me but hop on if you need to" "I don't think bussing should be a go-to"

busses neopolitan Day 1

I'm biased as hell and think that my play and interactions shine through if you care to look etc etc but I don't have anything outside of the game with a big flashing sign pointing to the town signal

[Prism]

Can't respond tonight, will tomorrow sometime after 9 PM PST.

[Prism]

@Podoboq: Is it possible to get an extension through Thursday?

It is impossible for me to answer even a third of what is here the next two days without doing massive corner cutting. I have all the free time in the world after Wednesday, but today through Wednesday 9 PM EST I've got <2 hours a day to dedicate to the game.

[Prism]

I know 1-1.5 hours a day sounds like a lot but it's really not.

[Prism]

Alright, I'm headed home now, then it's time to get cracking.

[Prism]

Bless you podoboq.

First two things I'm pointing out especially now that BV is putting all of his chips on it. This is what I mean when I say everything is being falsified/mischaracterized:

His reasoning for voting Eagersnake is pretty much crap. Eagersnake apparently is playing it exactly like he should as scum? How on Earth was he expecting a town-Eagersnake to play it if Eager was reading Shadow as town? That consideration was never there and the vote was incredibly opportunistic.

I wasn't scumreading him for it, I was saying it was NAI. Here's the post:

Moving on, I think either Eager is mafia or they're both town. Eager is playing this exactly how he should as scum, because there's really no way for him to come out of this alive unless he convinces everyone they're both town. I believe he's ascetic-I don't buy so much that he's a town one. Implosion being one of the ones pushing that eager isn't mafia for it really doesn't ease my mind.

Follow ups:

WHAT IS THIS BS?????

The same thing I've been saying the past 5+ pages, nn30 and implosion are my top two scumreads and despite Eager playing his role strongly he's doing exactly what I'd expect if he was cc'd scum. If it flips town I wouldn't be shocked at either of you/Gamma turning out to be scum.

You mean I'm doing exactly what I should do regardless of alignment, which makes my actions either

A) Genuine townplay
OR
B) Perfect scumplay

I don't think realizing that getting Shadow lynched is suicidal takes a mafia genius and you're not going to sell me on that one.

The post where I voted Eager after realizing I can't get Implosion:

Eager has pretty quickly switched from "perfect scumplay" to overplaying his hand hard with the constant "I'm town and I'll flip it watch out." It shows that he saw what was working and decided to keep approaching that angle without realizing the returns diminish significantly as you go. I really wanted to vote Implosion here but it's pretty clear to me that nobody is willing to do it-hit me up if that changes.

My reasoning for thinking Eager was scum was just like everyone else's-mechanical skepticism, followed by his reaction well after his "perfect scumplay/genuine townplay". His assertion that Shadow was town too was what was NAI-the Shadow lynch was straight up never happening Day 1 and everybody knew it. Scum Eager is forced to call him town, just like town Eager might arrive at the conclusion naturally.

[Prism]

His Boring push is similar. There's no real smoking gun. Just a lot of calling Boring scum for I don't know what reason. It's not like Implosion's suspicion which was absolutely dead-on.

Really? Because I gave a shit ton of reasoning. The best summary is this one but I've included others:

Only speaking for me but a few of the reasons I'm voting her are:
-Maria death
-Acknowledging why Gamma wouldn't be jailed but claims to be confused about why he died
-Voting LUV with me really doesn't convince me given the timing. LUV did something incredibly scummy and it doesn't take a town to see that. This may be confirmation bias speaking but a lot of her votes both today and other days seem opportunistic, ex. #1763 gives the possibility of her switching to Gamma. Kind of hypocritical of me to point out as I've said numerous times to make sure your vote is somewhere it counts, but the who it is question is still there.
-LUV voting Shadow then quickhammering Eager rather than just voting one of Eager/boring in a natural way to begin with is really strange if they're both town.
-Part of it is just me staring blankly at my computer, blankly looking at the names Dierfire/Grendel/boring/PenguinPower, and asking myself who's the most likely scum out of the 4.

There's literally no other reason to kill her [Maria] when if they weren't [correct], she's protecting scum and is a candidate for a mislynch later down the road. I think in general it points more towards boring being scum. I think not making NK speculation is a big mistake-every kill is made for a reason-out of perception of a threat, out of a desire to misdirect, or some combination thereof. My biggest strength as a player is playing the WIFOM game and winning.

boring's is a difficult read. #1609 I think brings up a good point on implosion but you don't have to be scum to find a good point. The frustration is hard to see through, last time I reread it I could see it being legitimate. I liked #1165 at the time but now I read things like this and just want to vote her for it:

I'm frankly baffled by my wagon, or that it's lasted this long. I'd congratulate scum, but I don't think they've earned it.

What came after was better but I feel her posts are always going to come off the wrong way. However, that doesn't mean I'm wrong. The MariaR kill is a really, really good reason to vote her, especially if Gamma's report on Implosion is legitimate. She is my top fallback pick for a vote today if LUV doesn't pan out.

Bonus: "Playing the WIFOM game and winning" in the context of a night kill does not include immediately using it to double bus the two people the kill would have been meant to protect. Call it more next level WIFOM if you want, I call it a one way ticket to being trapped solo in a town that has 3-4 mislynches and multiple PRs left.

Prism, I'm going to need you to reread my post. I said your argument was crap because it's based on the assumption that I have the intelligence and subtlety of an Easter ham, which, frankly, anyone would find a bit insulting. Either way, it's time to move onto crazy tunnel #4. Maaaaybe PP?

I've read it. Saying "I'd have to be stupid to do that" is not convincing. On the contrary, I'm suggesting that you are too intelligent to be surprised by scum's choice of kill given the knowledge that jailing Gamma is a waste of a jail, and that scum can risk one kill-less night. I also think that killing someone who is suspicious of you is a solid play. I see no reason to go on PP-the only questionable thing he's really done is overplay the brash behavior when he realized people townread it. That's scummy, sure, but that's definitely possible as town. If anything right now my second choice would be Grendel-my first impression of his case on Shadow is that he knows he's not winning vs. nn30 and needs a hail mary, especially if you're scum with him. Assuming no two death nights, scum needs at minimum 3 mislynches to win, and they're not going to make themselves. Somebody has to create them, and it's not happening if a red flip comes today.

My transition was "eh what's the first reason I see to vote while I catch up" -> "This is really strange play" -> "Every time I read her posts her tone gets to me, is this a me problem or a her problem?" -> "Oh Eager probably claimed ascetic not think there'd be a town one, RIP dude" -> "Okay Eager flipped town, back to the drawing board, that Maria kill was strange. Maybe I wasn't wrong on boring?" into a whole bunch of other mishmash.

[Prism]

The irony here further is incredible:

His reasoning for voting Eagersnake is pretty much crap. Eagersnake apparently is playing it exactly like he should as scum? How on Earth was he expecting a town-Eagersnake to play it if Eager was reading Shadow as town?

If he's scum, he covered his bases really, really well.

The thing that's bugging me is that Prism's play is almost a bit too perfect. It's the kind of scumplay I would expect from someone that's very, very good at scum.

If he's scum, he's been pretty smooth with that and the reasons have flowed pretty well. But the more experience you have, the more believable you can make your busses.

[Prism]

My prior posts are just the tip of the iceberg, this is a fullblown collapse on BV's end, there's a lot more coming.

Thanks for making me go through my own ISO, I forgot about this completely which probably deserves an answer:

But most people had other reasons for me thinking they were town. Prism didn't have that. He replaced into a lurky slot and made pushes I didn't like D1. D2, he started making a lot more sense. The LUV push was what eroded my scumfeels for him.

This isn't consistent with what you said when you first replaced in:

I was scumreading Prism all the way up until he said he was going to replace out. I don't think scum would ever do that out of frustration from being caught. It's just poor sportsmanship especially if Shadow had called the scumteam. I get that this may be a controversial reason to have a read but Prism's almost replacing out pretty much confirms him as town for me. But I'm making a note to ISO him just to be sure.
Your reaction to nn is what I expect out of you as both alignments

[Prism]

Sorry, have had to pause due to more real life issues, but there will be more posts tonight and I should be able to carve out an okay chunk of tomorrow and all of Wednesday.

[Prism]

@Prism - as of right now, the game ends in 30 hours. The mod has not spoken as to whether or not the game will be extended.

Not my choice. My fault, not my choice.

You'll have more than you'll know to go through in the morning. I realize I've been full of hollow time promises, and I can elaborate more on why if you want, but I'm here to play mafia, not give you a sob story or justify my inactivity.

P-Edit: Don't know what to say other than sweet.

[Prism]

If you want to wait like 2 hours, sure.

[Prism]

@Prism - post all the walls you want, but this is what I'm hung up on. I don't see a way for scum Shadow_Step to diss me before he replaces out.

Can my last few posts and think them through? BV's last two pages are a trainwreck and I don't see a way for them to come from town, and that's trying to be as objective as possible. I have more I want to point out-a lot more indicative than that-but it doesn't make sense to until you process what I've already thrown out there-especially the last one. I posted the easy stuff first, that's not even the heavyhitters.

I don't see what you see about the diss. It's a final parting shot, I can speculate that it's just continuing to play to his alignment on the way out or that he was even legitimately frustrated (and I think it was the latter-I think he sincerely very frustrated). What makes it town to you?

[Prism]

I wrote this and realized I've been really snappy today so my apologies. It's just been a really bad week, and despite promising to come into today with everything I had I really haven't, for reasons both inside and outside my control, and that's led to me getting more frustrated when it doesn't help.

2) Scum!Shadow would know that I'm town. I don't see a world where he calls me a clueless newbie on his way out the door. He should pride himself for being part of why I've been chasing my tail all game.

3) Town!Shadow, on the other hand, would be pissed at me for not seeing anything he's said all game. I see a world where town!Shadow disses me on the way out the door.

I don't see why scum Shadow would make that comment when he's been playing the "nn is a dumb newb" angle all game and probably even meant it. His replace out makes 0 sense if he wasn't frustrated to begin with, the parting comment means literally nothing to me and I don't get how to convince you of that. I've already explained why Shadow's frustration was likely legitimate, if you're looking for me to convince you that it wasn't I can't do that.

Also, I'm not reading BV's last page as a trainwreck. I'm noticing a lot of the same things he is.

That would be because you're not looking in the right places, so again, can you actually give my posts a shot? The reason I scumread you to begin at the start of the game was because you weren't reading what I was saying when you responded, before I realized it wasn't purposeful, and that's happening again.

[Prism]

Thanks for understanding. I still want to do as much as possible even if I can't play up to my usual standards, as I've clearly dropped the ball all day at the worst possible time.

It's putting a lot on me to read the quotes you've presented in the same way that you are.

Yes, but you don't really have a choice, and my quotes haven't been for you to scrutinize with a magnifying glass-it's to get you to see that these claims are blatantly false.

Example:

But most people had other reasons for me thinking they were town. Prism didn't have that. He replaced into a lurky slot and made pushes I didn't like D1. D2, he started making a lot more sense. The LUV push was what eroded my scumfeels for him.

The other thing is what I mentioned before when I took a break from the game. It seemed like the evidence on the surface pointed towards you but it just didn't feel right: you didn't push Boring much after D1 or after the LUV lynch and Prism's record seemed pristine. And yet, you put so much content in the thread in so many different directions I had a hard time pulling the trigger. So, I looked at the alternative: Prism has a low rate of posting, is usually concise and to-the-point, and he's been accurate with his reads, yet his analysis wasn't very strong. "LUV plagiarized me" is a weak thing to pick up on and that he was right felt more like an informed stance. A close look at his jump onto the Eager wagon was what finally sold it for me. That reasoning was total nonsense and it got a mislynch when it looked like scum was in trouble.

I want you to read these. He claims here a few things, but the key ones here are:

1. He stopped scumreading me Day 2. My LUV push eroded his scumfeels for me.
2. My play was "pristine", I've "played perfectly as scum", "covered all my bases", etc.
3. My reads have been accurate all game.

I want you to really think through everything that BV has said about me, not just today but previously.

I played a perfect scumgame, too perfect, so much that it's hard to believe I'm mafia-he's thought I was town basically all along, but this isn't true. He had me as mafia before.

I was scumreading Prism all the way up until he said he was going to replace out. I don't think scum would ever do that out of frustration from being caught. It's just poor sportsmanship especially if Shadow had called the scumteam. I get that this may be a controversial reason to have a read but Prism's almost replacing out pretty much confirms him as town for me. But I'm making a note to ISO him just to be sure.

On Prism, I'll just give you the stuff I remember. I didn't like his preference for lynching Eager over Boring. I didn't like his Implosion push. I'm not going to go into the nitty-gritty of every argument as I'm confident he's town now for that attempted replace out. There was also POE as most others did something I thought was town.

See the bolded which is a clear contradiction, and one that's virtually impossible to make if he were town. That's a lot more than just forgetting something/having trouble keeping memory straight. That's a straight up lie.

Second he's playing a very manipulative game with regards to how he's portraying my reads. On the one hand my reads have been impeccable, highly accurate, etc. but simultaneously they've been atrocious like on Implosion. I'm going to go back over my LUV reasoning in a bit, and explain it more clearly even though I thought I did a good job Day 2. With boring I wound up being dead wrong until it was literally just her and Dierfire to choose from. I was the first to own up to blowing the game by voting Grendel over her, even though IIRC it was only after you requested me to. Even if if I were, my reads being right are the last reason you want to lynch me.

[Prism]

3) Where do you suggest I look?

I can try and explain again.

Put yourself in the shoes of a Shadow_step. You are town. You have been wrong literally every day of the game, leading on town after town. You claimed a right to the LUV lynch but never voted him and never pushed him. In this alternate universe I guess you can justify this to yourself as still being right and claim victory for it. Your ego grows and inflates more over the coming days despite you just lynching more town. You thinks you've nailed the mafia-it's boring and Prism. Prism, your scumread and the person you're trying to get lynched today, disagrees with your ego and assertiveness. Eventually Prism replaces out over the ego. In a change of heart, Shadow turns a new leaf and offers to replace out of the game for his top scumread's sake. You make sure to give a parting shot to that darned nn30 who prevented you from lynching scum back to back before turning down Prism's offer to both stay and work things out.

Now put yourself in the shoes of a Shadow_step again. You are mafia. You have convinced everyone you are town. You made a risky play Day 1 and it's paid off in spades, you're just getting to trash everyone knowing you're playing them all for suckers. Your ego inflates more as the days go by, even though you're frustrated with that darn nn30 who is still throwing a wrench in your plans and occasionally FoSing you even when everyone else hasn't. Calling him a noob seems to be getting to him and Prism both, and I mean how can he not townread your sick play? The whole game fucking hates you and trashes you but that's okay because you're clearly a rational, levelheaded person who is okay with not getting credit despite thinking it's due considering your stellar play, evidenced by your rational, levelheaded posts that matched your accomplishments ingame. It looks like Prism hates you so much that he's about to replace out over it. You really have been a dick all game, you have to say. You still hate that darned nn30 too. You think you hate this game. Why do you not make this post?

[Prism]

1) You point out a contradiction. I scum read Gamma for this (I was wrong) probably Penguin (I was wrong) and, frankly, I've contradicted myself all game. I don't see this as scummy. I see this as indication of reads evolving.

That's not an evolving read. This is his historical read. The contradiction is not just forgetfulness.

He said the LUV flip made him townread me, but this is fundamentally untrue, in a historical sense, and not in a way that is easy to forget.

He never townread me until he replaced in, only thinking I was town based on the replace out. But that isn't what he says here. The fact that his flip comes at a time when I'm obviously not switching and probably wouldn't even have time to consider his arguments even if I might, whereas you instantly bit when you threw out that it might be me, is telling as fuck.

Go find things that Shadow did that aren't related to you and give me interpretations of those. Go find things BV did that don't involve you and find scum motivations for those actions. I'm not interested in you defending yourself; you'll do so, and do so well, regardless of your alignment. I want your analysis.

I'm already working on doing this but I want to scream, this is how I scumhunt. It's the reason I asked for people's opinions on me 500x over, and is what wound up catching LUV. It's fine to want more than that but if you're just disinterested in anything else you're turning a blind eye to my biggest strength here.

[Prism]

I missed his explanation on the last page.

When I was reading as a spectator, yeah I thought you were scum initially, then the LUV push made me second-guess but I stopped following the game really closely and didn't have anyone I was suspecting in your place. When you posted that replace out request, initial reaction was "oh, well I was wrong. No way Prism posts a replace out request here."

Still fundamentally different from what was portrayed and took twice around to get it, and there's still more I want to get to and will.

[Prism]

Okay, sorry, but the reread on Shadow is going to have to wait until tomorrow. I've been awake for almost 56 hours straight and I feel like death. I'll be able to post more around 5 PM PST tomorrow.

My parting words for the night even though I know they're not what you prefer to hear is more refutation of what I still am adamant is a BV trainwreck.

3194 - I did understand what you were saying about Shadow. You're saying that he's scum being disrespected despite doing his job well and that's why he replaced out. That's ridiculous. If you are scum, everyone dismissing you as bad town is a dream. They're the ones who'll get a shock after you win against them. I'm aware that you didn't say his arrogance was a scumtell. But even saying that he had no reason to be arrogant is a poor argument because it's perfectly possible that Shadow thought that the Eagersnake lynch was absolutely necessary. In fact, the way he reacted to it by saying that only scum would be against it makes perfect sense with the rest of his personality and opinion of himself. He still thinks he did the right thing by pushing that lynch.

Wtf is this? Shadow had an ego and you didn't understand why so he's scum? You claimed to have played mafia for five years so surely it would occur to you that there are so many players who look at their town play through rose colored glasses. Who think that their scum lynch rate is absolutely awesome and when they are wrong, they just blame it on the person they mislynched because "he shouldn't have been so damn scummy!" Shadow being convinced that the Eager lynch was necessary was frustrating but is hardly something that you would never see from town. This entire post reads like you are manipulating nn30 and trying to make him angry that Shadow called him a newbie. Shadow's replace out was absolutely not likely to happen as mafia. I'm not even saying it wasn't alignment-indicative. I'm flat-out saying it's a towntell. As mafia, if people are dismissing you as VI-town or calling you arrogant-town, you thrive on that, you win the game, and you show them who's the VI. But as town, being disrespected can be frustrating and I assume that's why he's had enough and replaced out because of that.

This is a serious double standard here. The base claim is that for someone egotistical, you only get indignant over your quality of play midgame if you're town. I definitely have gotten indignant as mafia on numerous occasions. I'm willing to bet you and BV have too. I'm definitely willing to bet Shadow did. The claim that Shadow is prone to bias and irrationality as town but a by definition an old martial arts master moving chess pieces, chuckling behind the curtain, as mafia, free from the pitfalls of pride and selfdelusion, is ridiculous.

Also, trying to use the fact that I'm directly responding to your question about that specific post when I consider it a nonevent as evidence of further mastermind Prism manipulation is borderline hilarious. I don't even get what you find town about it let alone know how to use it to rile you up. The only thing I've riled up all game was myself over Shadow.

Maybe I'm so tired and fatigued from this marathon of a week that I can't see straight, maybe I'm not doing a good job verbalizing my thoughts, maybe I just haven't verbalized enough of them since I still have so many floating around from the paragraphs upon paragraphs of garbage selfcontradictions, but I don't see how you can view anything in the last two pages as anything but a trainwreck when you compare his statements to reality and really try to match up his thought process.

[Prism]

Thank you to both of you for voting to extend, by the way, I really appreciate it.

[Prism]

A lot of what I said was definitely unclear, now that I'm better rested I can hopefully explain a bit better.

1) You point out a contradiction. I scum read Gamma for this (I was wrong) probably Penguin (I was wrong) and, frankly, I've contradicted myself all game. I don't see this as scummy. I see this as indication of reads evolving.

To highlight the difference here, Gamma and Penguin would give a read and have it magically change a page or two later, like they forgot that they scumread someone or why as they moved on. This is simple forgetfulness and difficulty keeping track of a quickpaced game.

This is different from BV's contradiction. BV is saying that he always townread me for the LUV flip, but his entrance flat out says this wasn't true. This isn't a read that could have changed over time or gotten lost in the flow. He made it in his entrance to the game.

You forget minor things or have your thinking change with new things. Nothing new happened in between BV replacing in to now that would change his read on me at the point he entered. The thing he would have had to forget is not a small thing, it's a complete 180. Neither of these explanations adds up if he were town.

Go find things that Shadow did that aren't related to you and give me interpretations of those. Go find things BV did that don't involve you and find scum motivations for those actions. I'm not interested in you defending yourself; you'll do so, and do so well, regardless of your alignment. I want your analysis.

I'm already working on doing this but I want to scream, this is how I scumhunt. It's the reason I asked for people's opinions on me 500x over, and is what wound up catching LUV. It's fine to want more than that but if you're just disinterested in anything else you're turning a blind eye to my biggest strength here.

Clarifying this some more, I'm not just defending myself, I'm showing why these viewpoints are unlikely to come from town. The way I scumread people is to try and get into their mind and add up whether or not what they're saying is really what they'd be thinking as town, which amounts to my best guess. The thing I have the most knowledge on, by a mile, is my own play, in the sense that if someone starts bullshitting-I can immediately tell. The strength that came from me questioning reads on me all game was doublesided, 1) It served as my best vehicle for reading them and 2) It serves to cement reads on me if they turn out to have basis.

I am doing analysis on BV and more will be done, but you have to realize that the easiest way for me to show you he's scum is to show why what he's saying is bullshit. It's me playing to my strength and the way I've always played, not me dodging analyzing BV. This is the vehicle for the analysis.

[Prism]

Okay, well that was a great wall saying "Prism is twisting my words and taking things out of context and is mafia for it" while admitting in that post that you are at minimum doing the same thing, but how about explaining how you magically forget that no, you never townread me through the replace out, both according to your Excel sheet and according to your words.

The most recent one is just digging yourself a bigger hole:

Some reads switched around but I stopped updating when I felt that I figured out the scumteam through POE.

With LUV's lynch and scumflip, I started wondering whether I was wrong on Prism but I didn't have anyone else I could solidly slot as scum. Maybe Grendel? I wasn't paying much attention to the game at that point as I felt chances of replacing in were slim. But it was definitely a case of me thinking about both Prism-town and Prism-scum possibilities. After Grendel started towntelling and flipped town, I started wondering if it was Prism again but it wasn't really a strong, confident read.

[Prism]

I've been focusing way too much on this even though there's a lot others to tackle so I'll try and dig through some Shadow posts now.

[Prism]

I'm really disappointed in my play this game. I don't really know what else to say. I'm sorry to boring and LUV.

My plan was never to pocket you, nn.

[Prism]

You and BV both did a spectacular job this final day and earned the win through and through so congratulations, I'm in a bit of a state of shock still from outside things that drew me away yet again, but you really earned your keep and I'm glad you did it.

If you want to read my notes on the final day, I gave them completely on page 10 of the scum QT.

My frustration with Shadow was also 100% legitimate.

[Prism]

yall had a great lylo tbh and Prism should feel good cause they would've won if they just placed a vote

I appreciate this but I don't feel good at all. I played the LyLo horribly. nn/BV took every inch I gave them and ran with it but when I look at this last day I feel ashamed and disappointed, because I don't think I've ever played worse.

[Prism]

As I've been stating in my QT, it's time for an icon change in light of the reveal.

@Prism you made it to LyLo with a power town read from everyone who was alive the previous day. You did fine.

And I proceeded to completely drop the ball and play the worst I have ever played, by a mile. It meant that months of hard work went to waste, not just from myself but from boring and LUV.

I'm not trying to take away anything from you, you both earned that win fighting tooth and nail, and took every inch I gave you without hesitation. I'm just the type of player that can't be happy with leaving something halfway done, and I did that here. It's not really worth it trying to console me, this is something really worth celebrating for you, you've worked for months and you did it.

[Prism]

Also the fact that my own frustration with Shadow in many ways wound up being my downfall is hilarious and a good lesson in humility.

One thing that I didn't mention in the thread is that it made me really happy to see nn use this:

3) Can you describe your play style concisely in one sentence? Whatever it takes to win.


Maybe his plan was always to pretend to 'cool back down' and come back to the game?

It wasn't my plan, but that opening RVS statement was intentionally made against my own alignment. It was intended to be the only warning all game as for what was coming. I wound up deciding to give a second warning with the "WIFOM game and winning" statement and I'm glad that was eventually noticed as well, even if it was to my own detriment.

Some notes on my meta that I gave in my QT that you may or may not find interesting: I despise being the scum to go deep. It is my least favorite way to play scum and the way I am worst at. I heavily prefer either the whole team following through or me being the first one to get lynched. I am much better at setting up my partners than I am setting up myself, unfortunately.

P-Edit: I'm glad to hear that boring, but I'm sorry I couldn't do more to bring home the win. I don't really know what to say-I tried my best, but it really wasn't enough this last day. I don't really gauge my play by whether I win or lose, so much as how satisfied I am with it. My play wasn't satisfactory in my book. It was my worst scumgame in years. And that's on me, not on you/LUV who set me up to succeed, and especially not on nn/BV who smelled blood and took home the W. That in itself is enjoyable, because I love seeing my own errors and my own room for improvement-which I clearly have a lot of.

[Prism]

I think it's pretty clear I'm pretty prideful about my scumgame, and definitely to a fault. So it's lesson time:

One of the key takeaways from this game is just how much more interesting forum mafia is-I got to let out a lot more of my creative side. I set up so many things and didn't even bring up 1/4th of them-it was just a delightful process to go through and really got me to think about how to implement them more/finding more ways to bring them to the forefront. Another half of my ideas I didn't even try, and will have to wait for another game.

I was simultaneously really impressed with the level of play, but also kind of disappointed at just how much information was lost in the mishmash. I really felt like I had strong rebukes to BV's day today but didn't even know where to start, let alone with everything else that was going on.

I really needed to be more transparent with LUV/boring about what my thought processes and visions for the game were. I think we would have made a much stronger team if I had.

I also clearly need to work on my deep runs. I can't always avoid them like I want and need to be able to square up better.

Finally find ways to deal with time commitments. This last week was an outlier in that it was literally the worst week of my life, having everything from health issues, severe sleep deprivation (Past 7 nights the total is about 20 hours), to urgent trouble with family and work, but there's a larger takeaway here. I wouldn't have had those issues if I learned to do less than more, and be sharper with my posting.

If anyone has any tips for me, please let me know, because I'd love to grow. If it's post more Day 6 I know that one, unfortunately.

[Prism]

Just finished reading the dead thread.

Shadow's posts are hilarious. I don't really know what else to say about them. I'm not even mad, they should have always been funny and honestly I don't think I've burst out loud laughing from reading a forum post in a really long time. I really needed this this week, so thanks Shadow.

I'm really grateful for boring's approval and cheerleading along the way, along with the real faith that LUV and boring placed in me. It really warms the old scum heart.

But above all holy shit podoboq, you are the real MVP, and won my heart. I actually love you. I don't know what else to say other than thanks so much for putting on a great game, not modkilling me, and for offering the extension when I desperately needed it even if I wound up not making good on it.

My not voting was strategic to prolong the day, I didn't think nn would vote until I would. Obviously backfired.

My coasting wasn't purposeful except for whatever day it was that we got Dierfire lynched. That one I wanted the angle that I had lost interest in the game as I was pretty sure it was DF and it made no sense to be hyped up and investigating every other player given that assumption.

I mean, as for how I felt about my activity and my posting Day 6, you can read the scum PT for yourself. I left my heart right there on page 10. I didn't want to proddodge, and I wasn't making excuses for myself. I really wanted to post up a storm but just couldn't find the time to do it, and it broke my heart, because I put so much work into this game and I couldn't follow through. It just got worse the last week, which was literally the worst day of my life.

Special shout out to Shadow, who is so deluded in his own mind to think that I'm playing mafia in the scum PT and to the mod. It's been hard to find anything to be cheerful about the past week, but at least I can know there's still empathetic and loving 15 year olds like Shadow here to support me.

[Prism]

Just finished reading the dead thread.

Shadow's posts are hilarious. I don't really know what else to say about them. I'm not even mad, they should have always been funny and honestly I don't think I've burst out loud laughing from reading a forum post in a really long time. I really needed this this week, so thanks Shadow.

I'm really grateful for boring's approval and cheerleading along the way, along with the real faith that LUV and boring placed in me. It really warms the old scum heart.

But above all holy shit podoboq, you are the real MVP, and won my heart. I actually love you. I don't know what else to say other than thanks so much for putting on a great game, not modkilling me, and for offering the extension when I desperately needed it even if I wound up not making good on it. I felt bad for making you put up with so much, and seeing you defend me in the thread means a lot to me.

My not voting was strategic to prolong the day, I didn't think nn would vote until I would. Obviously backfired.

My coasting wasn't purposeful except for whatever day it was that we got Dierfire lynched. That one I wanted the angle that I had lost interest in the game as I was pretty sure it was DF and it made no sense to be hyped up and investigating every other player given that assumption.

I mean, as for how I felt about my activity and my posting Day 6, you can read the scum PT for yourself. I left my heart right there on page 10. I didn't want to proddodge, and I wasn't making excuses for myself. I really wanted to post up a storm but just couldn't find the time to do it, and it broke my heart, because I put so much work into this game and I couldn't follow through. It just got worse the last week, which was literally the worst day of my life.

Special shout out to Shadow, who is so deluded in his own mind to think that I'm playing mafia in the scum PT and to the mod. It's been hard to find anything to be cheerful about the past week, but at least I can know there's still empathetic and loving 15 year olds like Shadow here to support me.

[Prism]

Nice doublepost Prism. Real smooth.

Two things that got me Prism: Your hammer on Dier was over the top & you weren't interested in figuring out people's alignments in LyLo. You stuck to your town read on me without confirming it by finding scum motivation in shadow/BV

Yeah I realized a bit later that I had done too much with the length, and the rest of the game never got to see the humor that the other mafia did-making it uncharacteristic in your eyes. Specifically, the idea behind it when I made it was that it was a final post explaining to DF my vote, with the idea being that he deserved that much. One of the things I did that I was hoping would be picked up on was the way that I transitioned who my post was directed to-it gradually changes from an objective explanation to everyone, eventually shifting to solely addressing Dierfire. This was purposeful, and was meant to portray 1. That the post was for his sake 2. That I was earnestly becoming more and more convinced it was him as my reread progressed.

The LyLo was mainly due to time considerations, unfortunately, I had a lot more I wanted planned, including a thorough review of all three of you/BV/SS, but it never worked out like that. I think in general I needed a vastly different gameplan/approach to make Day 6 work with the time considerations in mind.

[Prism]

I came on the verge of replacing out in LyLo but I really wanted to see it through, and it would have really sucked Podoboq had I done so. I thought I could make it work anyway. I feel bad for boring/LUV that I didn't.

[Prism]

Please don't ever replace out of a game at its end state. Its not fair to the other players. And its a huge pain for the mod.

Even if your faction loses at least you can say you cared enough to not abandon it!

That was the idea, and I am glad I saw it through, it's more just the lingering question of "What if?" because I honestly think anyone could have played that 3 way better than I did. I knew no one wanted to replace into a 120 page game-we got lucky the first time around with BV.

And again, as much as I'd love to blame my RL circumstances for it entirely, I definitely could have found a way despite them and I didn't. The players that show up win, and BV and nn both showed up the last day. They deserve full credit-as do several town players that didn't quite make it that far, such as Maria and Implosion.

[Prism]

Also, to Maria and PP who were of the opinion that I should have really replaced out given my anger-it was one outburst, and I immediately calmed down 30 minutes later after I went for a walk. I was being immature and irrational, and I didn't want to let 30 minutes of my temper flaring get in the way of literally months of meticulous planning and hard work. It also, again, would have sucked for Podoboq to do a replacement for me-we got incredibly lucky that BV was in the waiting.

Yeah, I felt horrible when I got townread for it, and hinted the best I could that it was possible for me to do it as scum because of it. It's not how I would have wanted to win at all. It's important to keep in mind here that I was not the one assigning an alignment read to it or trying to milk it-there was no rule stating Prism will only try to replace out as town that I was trying to subvert. That was everyone else's speculation as to what I would and wouldn't do as scum, and guessing incorrectly. The only things I did were 1. Get mad enough to want to replace out to begin with 2. Not want to let a 20/30 minute emotional outburst ruin something I sunk months into.

P-Edit: Yep, sometimes people notice, sometimes they don't-and that's just the way it goes, I needed to find better ways to draw attention to it, and numerous other things, without saying it myself. I won't reveal all my secrets this game because they're reusable later, but that was one.