Mini Normal #1838 - Game Over

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Don't have a lot of time today but here's my current scum suspicions / thoughts:
Boring, PenguinPower, Implosion, Dierfire.

It's unlikely that Boring and Penguin are scum together.
LUV might deserve a place on the list but I'm not sure yet.

Obviously this list is bigger than it should be but w/e, I'll get to that when I have more time.

Shadow_step, you probably want to dial back the up-to-11 aggression.

Why Dierfire? To me, he's trying really hard to sort out who he feels is suspicious and none of the cases he presented so far have read like scum trying to push a mislynch.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

So other than Eager, Maria and implosion, who believed there could be 2 town ascetics?

LUV

VOTE: Shadow

If both of you are town we are seriously fucked.

Jeeeez this is terrible. When did I say all my reads are based in Eager's interactions with them?

It seemed implied and either way, I never said that was my reason for voting for you.

Then what is the reason Sherlock?
Did you iso me? You think I'm scum and ccing eager under no pressure when I didn't need to ?

I think you're gambling scum who failed to plan out a distraction.

Jesus Christ, stop playing you're fucking terrible. Gambiting mafia lmao

You're the one that's terrible my friend. The only case you have on Eager is that you cannot fathom that both you and him were given the same role. You either refuse or won't take into consideration a town motive for lying. If Eager had not claimed, your read on him would be null. You have no backup plan if he flips town and if he flips scum, it's an excuse to push on anyone who defended him or didn't vote for him.

If he thinks I'm scum, I would obviously not consider Eager to be town. Why the hell would I? He then says that Eager could be lying town. Implying he knows eager I town. Lying as town is very risky. Not just in that game. But you can get blacklisted.
LUV treats me as if I am town here.

To be noted

Wait, what? I didn't read you as town there. I was saying you're terrible because the case you had on Eager was terrible. As for considering town possibly lying, I had two reasons for town reading Snake, one was the time and the way he claimed and the other was I thought he was hiding the fact he had an actually useful PR and was intentionally acting the way he was so scum won't have a reason to kill him at night.

[Zoronos]

Why Dierfire? To me, he's trying really hard to sort out who he feels is suspicious and none of the cases he presented so far have read like scum trying to push a mislynch.

On looking back over the end of the day, listing Dierfire may have been a mistake.
Maria really wanted to kill him, and my gut dislikes him, but it certainly looks like he was trying to do work. *shrug*

PP is probably my top suspect atm.

[Shadow_step]

Wait, gamma is still scum.

[podoboq]

Official Vote Count 2.02

Lynching

With 11 votes in play, it takes 6 to lynch.

implosion (1): Shadow_step
boring (1): implosion
Lil Uzi Vert (1): Gamma Emerald

Not Voting (8): Dierfire, boring, Lil Uzi Vert, PenguinPower, Grendel, nn30, Zoronos, Prism

Deadline: (expired on 2016-10-30 12:31:00)

[Shadow_step]

VOTE: Gamma

[Zoronos]

???

[Shadow_step]

Zoro are you an alt?
I think gamma is scum because he was believing any vague stupid theories and voting people for shallow reasons without even thinking about it.

[Zoronos]

Not an alt.

[boring]

@Prism - You were after implosion yesterday. His tunnel timing me seems less than a coincidence,

I'm curious what you mean by this; it seems like it could mean pretty much anything. My best guess is that you mean to say that I brought up a wagon on you as a counterwagon to eagerSnake? And it sounds like you're trying to imply that that was a scummy thing to do? Which I find deeply confusing. So I'd like some clarification.

I'd also like some clarification on how you (seemingly, I may be misinterpreting things here) are simultaneously criticizing me for tunneling you on d1 and for not having strong reads on d1.

I was noting the sequence of events. Prism tunnels you, then you tunnel me. To expand, it's a good, risk-free distraction because there was already a wagon on me. It takes you from a defensive position to an offensive one. If you're scum, it's exactly the right move to keep you under the radar.

Regarding the issue wit reads, the criticism you noted wasn't all that confusing. You were criticized for not having reads (not by me). You responded by explaining that you don't have reads day 1, that it's just how you operate, and then proceeded to tunnel me (ironically, for something that's clearly personality based). It's the timing that I find fishy, not the action itself. Everyone who participates, and takes risks, gets tunneled at some point. Your tunnel in particular seemed artificial and "safe".

Boring - Her posting was mostly defensive, we went over this in detail yesterday about why he read flipped. She didn't seem to do any work to suss out which of Eager and SS were the correct lynch, she just followed her top read SS to turn on her second to top read. I was in the middle of inquisiting this a bit when the hammer came down, but there we are.

This was largely due to time constraints. I only had about 30 minutes a day to play, so I had to focus on avoiding my mislynch in abstentia (also, I was pretty confident that eager was scum). I'm really hoping that my time will open up now so I can better immerse in the game.

[boring]

I think gamma is scum because he was believing any vague stupid theories and voting people for shallow reasons without even thinking about it.

Gamma does this as town. I can't rule out the possibility that he plays the same as town and as scum. All I have to go on is his town game, and this looks just like his town game.

My first newbie game had mostly experienced players by Day 2, and one thing they effectively drilled into my head is that actions are NAI. Motives are all that matters. That's probably why the more experienced players seem to ignore the traditional "tell" lists and VCA.

There's no scum motivation for Gamma to hop around, apply moon logic, weave between his own path and arguments he likes in thread. Especially not with scum daytalk. Either he'd have been instructed to knock it off, or his buddies would be gearing up to bus him for town cred.

[boring]

Why Dierfire? To me, he's trying really hard to sort out who he feels is suspicious and none of the cases he presented so far have read like scum trying to push a mislynch.

You realize I had just asked that, right?

Wait, what? I didn't read you as town there. I was saying you're terrible because the case you had on Eager was terrible. As for considering town possibly lying, I had two reasons for town reading Snake, one was the time and the way he claimed and the other was I thought he was hiding the fact he had an actually useful PR and was intentionally acting the way he was so scum won't have a reason to kill him at night.

So does this mean that Shadow is your top scum read at this point?

[Zoronos]

for something that's clearly personality based.

Can you point out where / what this was?

Since by definition something personality-based is NAI, seeing where someone is casing off NAI behavior is instructive.

[Zoronos]

I'm bored and I feel like I'm primarily talking to myself.
Let's talk about this then: VOTE: PenguinPower

[boring]

for something that's clearly personality based.

Can you point out where / what this was?

Since by definition something personality-based is NAI, seeing where someone is casing off NAI behavior is instructive.

This is the example with implosion:

Spoiler:

On the other hand, I hate to beat a dead horse of almost-everything-boring-says-sounds-scummy but I really dislike boring's reaction... again.

So, rather than lynching scum (or at the very least learning from a town flip), you're suggesting we give them a free night kill, and start this mess up again tomorrow? We're better off lynching today. Even if it turns out to be me (though I'd hardly call that "plan A").

This is such an incredibly tepid response for someone who has been pushing eager so consistently since shadow claimed. Compare penguin's reaction, and Zoronos's reaction, and even nn who remarks that it's worth looking at his old games based on this. boring's reaction just reeks of scum who doesn't know how people are going to react and wants to test the waters before committing to saying something like "oh my god, only scum would possibly suggest a no lynch, can we please lynch him already." Which I would expect from town-boring here (obviously not in those words but etc).

That paragraph from boring does not read like town talking to their top scumread. It does not read like town with a strong investment in lynching the person they are talking to. I could buy it as town talking to someone that they're trying to make up their mind on. But I can't buy it as town talking to their top scumread. It just sounds like detached, rehearsed advice.

So... Your problem is that I'm not throwing a temper-tantrum right now? I don't know about you, but I can only fire all thrusters for so long.

It's been days, and eager isn't lynched yet. I've not had a whole lot of time for this game, but unless I'm mistaken, this CC situation has been analyzed, in depth. I'm not the only person on his wagon, why does its push rest entirely on my shoulders?

Why should I have to use your preferred wording to make my point about his awful no-lynch idea? I made it pretty clear I found his idea scummy and that any lynch was preferable to none.

It's more than a little irritating, by the way, that you give a whole paragraph on how you do you. Apparently, you don't develop strong reads day 1 (which is generally viewed as scummy), and then segue into how my approach to in-game conversation is too civil, and therefore scum.

There are more than one scum in the game, and we don't have to stand still while we're waiting for the undecided to sift through the very ample material and decide.

But don't worry. Next time eager posts, I'm sure it'll be yet another scummy line. If I'm around, I'll be sure to maintain sub-optimal wording.

Here's another, involving nn30:

Spoiler:

@town? - eager has been coasting, and the only thing in the way of my gut scumlean was the fact that he had an uncc'd claim. A cc from an obvious town player was more than enough reason to vote him.

She is specifically referring to the period of time before the Shadow CC that she had a scumlean on him. This directly contradicts her read list from that period of time (where snake was her second to top town read).

...
If you bothered to open an ISO, you'd see that I've been pretty clear about my feelings regarding eager's claim. That being, he was an uncc'd town claim, which left unchallenged, left him as a prime night kill target (because of the probably confirmed town status). As I also stated several times, if he lived to tomorrow, I'd re-evaluate. So for Day 1, uncc'd regardless of how untown he seemed, I didn't feel like I had much choice but to accept him as confirmed town.
...

Further contradiction. He's probably confirmed town without a counter claim - yet in 1037 (when there was still no CC) she has a scumlean on him.

Fishy. Fishy fishy.

So you highlighted my explanation and called it a contradiction? Are you talking about my conflict with his read, which I was open about? That's fishy? That I can see a slot as mechanically town but still believe they're behaving questionably? If that's the case, then your reasoning is atrocious. Or you're intentionally taking something transparent and are pretending it was something subversive.

What you're calling out as "fishy" is a big part of my scum-hunting process. I throw out ideas and voice the concerns I have with players so that I can interact with others in the game to solve the issue. It's brainstorming, and anyone remotely Ne-heavy (for lack of a better summary) does this as naturally as breathing. The fact that no one cared to take part in that conversation, is just another element of my frustration with town.

Both have been projecting their own thought processes onto others without considering that it's merely a matter of personality/personal preference. Shadow is doing it too, which is why I argued his vote on Gamma. I'm not saying it automatically makes them scum or town, seeing as it's some people's default mode for relating to others. It's just that it leads down NAI paths.

[boring]

I'm bored and I feel like I'm primarily talking to myself.
Let's talk about this then: VOTE: PenguinPower

What makes Penguin stand out in your scum pool?

[Zoronos]

Looking at the lynch yesterday, he provided no arguments for why Eager specifically was scum in the pair, didn't make any strong efforts to decide between the two competing claims, and didn't seem to examine the alternative trains. He just parked and went effectively afk other than an occasional 'this needs rope' style comment.

That to me suggests scum happy to take an easy lynch. He doesn't make an effort to sort out the alignments of all three players being discussed (boring, Eager, SS) because he doesn't care.

[Gamma Emerald]

Hm. Zoronos presents an interesting case. Want to see PP's response as soon as possible.

[boring]

Spoiler:

Yeah I honestly don't know what the hell happened the last 5 pages, just seems like poorly calculated move by Shadow regardless if he's telling the truth or not.

Yeah I'm actually in agreement with Shadow here, if you guys can show at least two to three examples of that happening in a mini, that would go a long way into putting this to bed for now. Since from my understanding, both Implosion and Snake are implying that the average player on this site would be to able to play optimally in such a setup.

VOTE: Shadow

If both of you are town we are seriously fucked.

Jeeeez this is terrible. When did I say all my reads are based in Eager's interactions with them?

It seemed implied and either way, I never said that was my reason for voting for you.

Then what is the reason Sherlock?
Did you iso me? You think I'm scum and ccing eager under no pressure when I didn't need to ?

I think you're gambling scum who failed to plan out a distraction.

If this is true, what was he distracting from with the CC?

My best guesses are PP and GE - since they both had (small) wagons on them when Shadow CC'd.

But... that wasn't enough pressure to do much.

What are your thoughts? What was scum!Shadow's goal with CCing?

GE and PP. Their wagons were small but there were various players discussing the cases presented against both in great detail and length. There was pressure for both players to explain their actions and things they've said. It was understood that we would be lynching Gamma or Penguin today. Discussion was happening and it was discussion that would lead to finding scum regardless of how either flipped.

I'm not entirely sure what his goal is other than to remove suspicion from one of Gamma and Penguin, maybe potentially even both. Either that or he read Snake as being a potential threat and he's willing to gamble in order to get rid of him.

Shadow still reads the same to me but I'm willing to move my vote with enough convincing.

To me it still reads like Shadow made look premeditated. The timing is too convenient for me.

Uhh... Please clarify what exactly you mean by these two sentences. I'm not getting it.

I'm saying that Shadow made it look like he intended to counterclaim Snake and that when he did counterclaim, it conveniently was at time where there were some serious discussion and debate going on about the wagons on Gamma and Penguin.

Maybe I've gone too far into the deep end due to the games I've been reading on here. I've seen scum attempt some crazy things and I'm always in the belief that anything is possible. So much that with the experience Snake seems to possess, I think he asked for a no lynch as sort of reaction test to see who would immediately jump on it to reveal who really is impatient and wants to end the day. Of course, he could have possibly been advocating for no a lynch and I can't rule that out in the slightest and just the thought alone doesn't sit well with me.

So intent

As for my popping in and out I'm not really sure what to say. I don't buy the case on boring and I was for Shadow over Snake as all of you know. I wanted to push Maria and Penguin more but we've long moved pass those ideas and/or wagons so I'm sort of left just here on the sidelines until we get some flips.

I didn't even hammer bud!

UNVOTE: Shadow
VOTE: Snake

Since I have time for ISO diving, I thought I'd dredge up these gems.

VOTE: LUV

Now, since we have plenty of time before EOD, I'd "luv" it if you could explain how/why you so drastically flipped script with your intent and hammer. From here, it looks like you magically went from suspecting Shadow (while agreeing that there couldn't be two ascetics) to deciding "yolo! I'm going to hammer the other guy". As far as I can tell, all that happened in between was your trip down the rabbit hole with Gamma.

[boring]

Looking at the lynch yesterday, he provided no arguments for why Eager specifically was scum in the pair, didn't make any strong efforts to decide between the two competing claims, and didn't seem to examine the alternative trains. He just parked and went effectively afk other than an occasional 'this needs rope' style comment.

That to me suggests scum happy to take an easy lynch. He doesn't make an effort to sort out the alignments of all three players being discussed (boring, Eager, SS) because he doesn't care.

I noticed that with him in general yesterday. I've certainly never lifted him out of my scum pool. What do you think are the chances that he and LUV might be on the same team?

[Zoronos]

On phone so don't have time to log dive. I am skeptical of a pre flip associative either way.

[Zoronos]

Hm. Zoronos presents an interesting case. Want to see PP's response as soon as possible.

What do you think about it? Agree / Disagree? Why am I wrong / why am I right?

(I assume PP's response is going to be that he's not the scum, so is probably not super interesting. Moreover, the way out of it isn't to talk to me about it, it's to demonstrate scum hunting / attempts to sort. So him addressing it directly isn't super worthwhile, nor is you asking him to.)

[Gamma Emerald]

Well boring kinda did the same thing, though I feel she did more to explain it. I do agree it is odd PP decided to cut and run.
Actually that's pretty telling.
VOTE: PenguinPower
This is better than my LUV vote for now, but I am still down for an LUV lynch.

[Zoronos]

Both have been projecting their own thought processes onto others without considering that it's merely a matter of personality/personal preference. Shadow is doing it too, which is why I argued his vote on Gamma. I'm not saying it automatically makes them scum or town, seeing as it's some people's default mode for relating to others. It's just that it leads down NAI paths.

Ah. That's different.
I find projection to be NAI or very slightly towny (though quite poor play, and don't tell anyone I said this or I'll have to deal with more of it because it's annoying as hell)

I was hoping to see that you had a case where they were upselling a NAI behavior on your part as a scummy behavior from a bad rationale.

[Zoronos]

Well boring kinda did the same thing, though I feel she did more to explain it. I do agree it is odd PP decided to cut and run.
Actually that's pretty telling.
VOTE: PenguinPower
This is better than my LUV vote for now, but I am still down for an LUV lynch.

I agree that Boring kinda did the same thing. That's why she was on the same list as Penguin that I posted earlier.
But I figured it was time for some left turn to shake up the thread so here we are discussing something new.

So, do you have anything else to add or just "+1 Zoronos is the best great case" ?