Mini Normal #1838 - Game Over
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I am aware of the technical difference. That's the 'with a twist' part of the sentence. The idea is that it's a negative utility that causes a PR to return an ambiguous / unhelpful result.In post 25, Gamma Emerald wrote:Not a miller. Millers return guilty results, ascetic gives nothing.
Anyway, not really relevant.- Zoronos
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Only person who has both posted in thread and does not have an RVS vote.In post 29, Gamma Emerald wrote:Why are you asking Implosion?
It seems stupid to ask someone who they want to vote off when they already have a vote registered. And I think it's a tad early for lurker call outs. So- Zoronos
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I just got news that a good friend passed, so I might be afk a bit tonight. Sorry. Or maybe I'll be no filter posting we'll see.
Random non-game-related questions are an easy way to fake content. So, no, they're beyond useless and actively scummy. They should not be humoured, especially when they appear tangentially game related since that just makes it easier to disguise that they aren't a form of scum hunting.- Zoronos
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I am out of the loop or maybe just missing an in joke. Mind explaining this?In post 38, Gamma Emerald wrote:I expect more from the ultimate scum lord!- Zoronos
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Because I don't vote the instant I have an inkling of suspicion. Or moreover, because the simple act of asking the questions isn't necessarily scum play. Using the questions as a sole form of contribution on the other hand is (which doesn't necessarily mean Grendel, a townie putting down that kind of list gives the scum room to dwell on it to contribute, so it isn't even that Grendel is scum for doing it, it's just pro-scum to exist). So yes, I'd rather take the hard line early and nip camouflaging play in the bud.In post 64, implosion wrote:Zoronos, you're implying a scumread on Grendel; why not follow it up with a vote?
Or maybe these boards don't have a conception of 'fake content' or maybe I'm using the wrong jargon to explain the idea. If I'm unclear, well.- Zoronos
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Well, given your insistence on continuing this line of questioning, I'll go with scum. But really the answer is 'bare scum off neutral and mostly just being annoying and probably bad'. Conveniently there is no gun to my head, so such a determination is massively early.In post 86, Grendel wrote:Okay, gun to your head: Am I mislead town, or misleading mafia?
I disagree what you are saying about RQS, but I'll have to wait until I've gotten a decent sample size before I post full reasoning.
In the meantime it'd be super nice if you'd humor me and play along.
I will under no circumstance play along, and you should really stop asking non-alignment determining questions. Especially ones that open easy AtE avenues (the answer of 'Yes' to 'are you mislynched often' is an easy play for scum to make here. Opening it is short sighted, imo)- Zoronos
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This is a decently analytical thought though for this point in the game. ++towniness.In post 86, Grendel wrote:I'm interested why you find my entrance poitenally scummy when you feel Zoronos is legitimately scummy. If you thought that Zorones was implying I'm scum then why was your initial reaction to my post, "well that's kinda scummy"? Sorry, but its weird that you'd have me as a tertiary scum read while your top scum is, in your opinion, also scum reading me. If you think he is scum, why do you think I am scum too?
I am not seeing much town intent with these pushes of yours.- Zoronos
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True. But I don't hard-bucket anyone so. Everything is just a matter of probabilities. In weighs towny though, so it pushes the needle. He's at least thinking about the game as a whole rather than mono focusing on one or two targets.In post 98, eagerSnake wrote:Could be faux-analytical
I find town try to grab the whole game at once, whereas scum just find 'their target' for the day and tunnel in on it.
The least charitable explanation imo is that he's trying to undermine an accuser's confidence, but I think it more likely he's inspecting reasoning. I like inspection of reasoning so that's what I'm going with as most-likely-explanation-for-post.- Zoronos
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I'd cut him a little slack. I basically called his approach to the game bad and slightly scummy. No defensiveness would be really odd (and an indicator of a low-ego player, or someone artificially playing that way).In post 117, nn30 wrote: I'm suspicious of this post. It's too early for you to be this defensive.- Zoronos
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I'm trying to figure out if I agree with you on this one or not.In post 132, Gamma Emerald wrote:VOTE: Implosion
Serious vote. He doesn't talk about LUV at all but then votes him. Trying to flashwagon are we?
Implosion's logic and stances seem, to me, to be very confused.
It seems like he's holding contradictory opinions and trying to justify them after the fact because he was playing off gut and didn't think through whether they made sense together (which leans towny).
My gut doesn't like his post, but I think that's because a lot of it is talking about himself. I want to call him scummy for that, but he's responding to a direct question about his behavior, so talking about himself makes sense. He's answering a direct question after all.
So basically my head and my gut disagree on that slot.- Zoronos
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Explain please?In post 161, Gamma Emerald wrote:LUV is town.- Zoronos
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Playing completely absent annoys me, but something being annoying doesn't make it scum. But it also doesn't make me really want to jump in front of a train and yell "No this is wrong don't lynch it" and I really love doing that, so give me something to work with if this is your sincerely held belief.In post 164, Gamma Emerald wrote:Oh just the fact LUV did this last game I played with him.- Zoronos
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That's not what I said. I said you were absent. And I'd appreciate it if you'd stop; having no opinions or contributions of your own is frustrating.In post 178, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:In post 166, Shadow_step wrote:Looks like LUV has been advised to play dumb and play newb like.
Needs death.
Why does it seem like you're implying I'm not paying attention to what's being said or done?In post 167, Zoronos wrote:
Playing completely absent annoys me, but something being annoying doesn't make it scum. But it also doesn't make me really want to jump in front of a train and yell "No this is wrong don't lynch it" and I really love doing that, so give me something to work with if this is your sincerely held belief.In post 164, Gamma Emerald wrote:Oh just the fact LUV did this last game I played with him.- Zoronos
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Yes. I am having a real bad day.In post 186, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:
That's exactly what absent means last time I checked. You seem upset. Are you having a bad day?
Also that's not what absent means; for all I know you're reading the thread, stroking a beard and saying "Hmmm... yes, insightful" to each post then taking a puff on your old english pipe and making notes in a leather bound journal. But that's not making its way into the thread, and you're getting a lot of votes lined up on you for what is essentially "I don't like this slot's RVS vote and continued absence".
So, while I find absence annoying (because it means I can't get a useful read on your slot) I am not a fan of simply lynching it down. But I can't make a cogent argument that "Hey, this seems like a not great plan" without some reasoning to back it up beyond simply "Lets not lynch lurkers" because that will convince exactly nobody.- Zoronos
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a) Ascetic is functionally the same as Miller in terms of being a net negative utility role for town, so claiming it early, just like claiming miller early is important. (Yes I know they work differently, I'm making a broader point about negative town utility)In post 169, Shadow_step wrote:Actually I wouldn't mind if everyone answers this ^
I personally think Eager could have waited a bit and tried ti develop some reads before outing that he is ascetic. More info to be gained from reactions after that.
Waiting to claim it for 'reactions' just opens up an easy scum pushback line of "Why didn't you claim Miller [or whatever] in your first post?!". Not opening easy scum lines is good.
b) I don't see a reason to do anything about it other than nod and go "Yup, certainly a thing he claimed." It tells us very little about the slot. There is a pro-town reason to say it, and a pro-scum reason, and beyond that it's more instructive, imo, to just read the slot for its posts.
c) Fishing for strong reactions to it is a bad plan in my opinion, since the people most disposed to react to a PR-interacting claim are themselves the folks with PR's.
I have the slot leaning slight town, and that's enough for me to look elsewhere.- Zoronos
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Tell me more about this, because I've ignored his RQS answers. (I've ignored basically everyone's). Why are they scummy?In post 191, PenguinPower wrote:For me, it's not his RVS vote. It's his RQS answers.
Oh, and the continued absence thing - though that's really more of a continued non-contribution thing.
My last? (maybe two games ago?) game on these boards, about a year ago, I got burned lynching down someone who was aggressively non-contributory. It felt good but they were town, which was less good. So I am a bit skeptical of running that same play back.- Zoronos
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@Penguin
Ah, gotcha. I agree that his play is anti-town. I further agree that it's frustrating.
I'm just hesitant to immediately lynch it down without attempting to draw him into more normal play first.
I have a lot of sympathy for GE's position on this one.In post 195, PenguinPower wrote:And, it's offputting to me that GE is defending LUV as strongly as he is.
Maybe I am projecting here, but I read GE's argument as "Playing useless is not a tell either way for LUV". 2 of my last 3 games on these boards before I left had people that were aggressively useless (as town). I got burned by lynching them. I'm hesitant to run that play out again without at least attempting to cajole the slot into playing normally.- Zoronos
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Claiming early and clearly as negative utility roles is absolutely correct. It is the best line of play as town in that situation.In post 196, boring wrote:I'm uncomfortable with how comfortable he was with eagerSnake's [awful]decision.
Throwing 'why did you not wait for reactions?!?!?' stuff, as ShadowStrike did, is not.
It's a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" setup. If a negative utility claims early, it opens "Why didn't you wait for reactions". If they claim late, it opens "He's faking a real [x] would have claimed immediately / claiming miller late is scummy because he was making sure there wasn't a counterclaim." There is no route that doesn't face critique, so you take the one that gives the most clarity.
So yes, I am totally okay with the manner in which EagerSnake claimed. Also, ascetic seems a really off the wall thing to fake claim, I'd expect a much simpler 'miller' or something if he was just scum faking.- Zoronos
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I don't know.In post 198, PenguinPower wrote:
And how do you propose to do that?In post 197, Zoronos wrote:attempting to cajole the slot into playing normally.
I was hoping a momentary relief of lynch pressure would convince him to come and play seriously but idk.- Zoronos
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I disagree with most of that in terms of 'how 2 PR properly', and as you note, you're making an assumption about what PR he may or may not have. He could just be vanilla ascetic. But having that argument isn't really game related, so we can discuss it in post or dead thread.
Suffice that I think EagerSnake's play was legit, and Shadowstrike's rejoinder is scummy.- Zoronos
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As I noted previously, I'm pretty skeptical of him and how he's handling Question Time. I'm willing to give him a chance to synthesize something from his results but I think the chances of that actually happening in a non hand-wave fashion are low.In post 209, Gamma Emerald wrote:He's probably town based on his current actions, but I want to see more.
But what I'm looking for here is some context on his play style. If this is just A Thing He Does, I'm willing to write it off as a bad habit if he plays the game in front of us, and I'm getting false bad juju off his playstyle.- Zoronos
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Dierfire posted once this game (before Grendel asked the questions), and Salandaar hasn't posted at all, but Grendel didn't seem to notice that / take that into account when assigning reads. Giving a light town read because they haven't posted at all is nonsense (He says probability of scum in main list, but that assumes a PoE that can't really exist yet unless he's Super Confident in his scum reads on there)
But initial suspicion confirmed, hand-wave or over-analysis of non-alignment-indicating details. Your biggest determiner of order of response is "Who was reading the thread when you posted the list", so treating that as alignment indicating will likely lead you down a hole, since 'people that post more' are correlated with 'people that answer soonest'. So using that as an alignment indicator is a bit specious.
If anything, the answer I'd have been looking most closely at would have been "Are you often mislynched". A Yes to that answer might lead me to believe scum opening an AtE avenue. But he ignores that line of play. <In case people misread since apparently my posts get misread, I'm not saying this makes him scum I'm saying it means I think he's just doing it wrong>- Zoronos
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Penguin - Let's make the assumption of Bad Town for the moment, if only because I don't feel like digging into this more and would like to see what he contributes based on actual gameplay.
Who does that leave as your top scum read, other than LUV? (Again, putting LUV's unhelpfulness aside. Looking Actual scummy posting in thread)- Zoronos
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He's not even voting me.
I'm mostly just calling him bad and sighing loudly.- Zoronos
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I am saying that if you have caught scum, it is entirely RNG and has nothing to do with your analysis.In post 232, Grendel wrote:Why are you implying that I couldn't possibly have caught scum?
It did make me re-read Penguin to think about his actual content, so maybe you prompted something useful, since his questions have all been pokes without followup, and his vote on LUV was a lurker / Anti-town (rather than pro-scum) callout. So maybe something useful but we'll see.
I am going to inspect that, as you can infer from my question to him.- Zoronos
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This is not a bad observation.In post 231, nn30 wrote:Also, implosion went dark after leaving his vote on luv. It's been ~18 hours since he last posted (compared to some pretty heavy activity on his part early on).
He could just be lurking for legit reasons.
Or he could have started lurking in response to getting some heat and just let the thread move past thinking about him.
Also, implosion went dark after leaving his vote on luv. It's been ~18 hours since he last posted (compared to some pretty heavy activity on his part early on).He could just be lurking for legit reasons.Or he could have started lurking in response to getting some heat and just let the thread move past thinking about him.
I am inclined to agree with it, forebearing that he might just not be in thread yet for w/e scheduling reason. But +1.- Zoronos
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Yeah, I know. Work with me here.In post 240, PenguinPower wrote:Ok. That makes sense. Thanks.
But, I'm scum reading LUV for his lack of answers to the RQS AND his lack of contribution since. So...yeah...not the same.
Ok. That makes sense. Thanks.But, I'm scum reading LUV for his lack of answers to the RQS AND his lack of contribution since. So...yeah...not the same.- Zoronos
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Super busy day at work so I'm behind, but I agree with this sentiment.In post 295, MariaR wrote:
I think you're looking into that a bit to much and overthinking I don't think that's what he was going for that seems way to smartIn post 294, nn30 wrote:
Yep.In post 291, MariaR wrote:
What I get from what you're saying is he's only posting when it's convenient for him to post yes?In post 289, nn30 wrote:@town - can you follow my line of reasoning? I ask because I want to see if Implosion is the only one not understanding me.
Also that from 247 - 261 he addresses a significant number of issues, but ignores the ones I've raised with him. The most he responds to me is by giving an explanation for why he hasn't posted in a while.
Apologizing for not posting for a while would have been a fine explanation - had he directed it at me. Instead, to me, it feels like he tried to slip an explanation under the radar without having to directly confront me on anything. THAT felt more scummy than the post pattern itself.
I do think you're town though for all this
NN30 sees himself as the focus of questioning / investigation and assumes that his target is considering his posts foremost when responding (assumes active neglect vs just not noticing / not caring). It reflects a stance wherein he believes everyone should be responding first and foremost to him; a responsibility seeking rather than a responsibility avoiding posture. He thinks his questions are super important and should always be answered, and that any avoidance of those questions is scum. Scum are happy to appear contributory, but this goes past simple appearance into active investigation attempt.
It's a 'Not considering equally plausible alternatives' fallacy, but this expression of the fallacy is much more likely to come from town than from scum, imo.
tl;dr active followup / active attempts to solve ergo leans towny.
I am reasonably pleased with what LUV posted over night and appreciate that he's taking a more active role in the game.
I need to find time to ponder Grendel more.
I still want a response from Penguin to my earlier question. Especially now that LUV made a big contribution post.- Zoronos
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I asked before LUV made his big post, but question remains relevant enough.In post 226, Zoronos wrote:Penguin - Let's make the assumption of Bad Town for the moment, if only because I don't feel like digging into this more and would like to see what he contributes based on actual gameplay.
Who does that leave as your top scum read, other than LUV? (Again, putting LUV's unhelpfulness aside. Looking Actual scummy posting in thread)
I guess with the secondary follow up - Your initial case on LUV was that he was non-contributory / not helping solve, do you feel that is still the case now that he wrote a [wall of words]? (Seems like your answer is Yes but I don't want to put words in your mouth)- Zoronos
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I was going to write a whole bunch of :words: on my opinion on Gamma, but going to hit Save Draft on that one for the moment.In post 309, PenguinPower wrote:
Original question: Gamma.In post 307, Zoronos wrote:
I asked before LUV made his big post, but question remains relevant enough.In post 226, Zoronos wrote:Penguin - Let's make the assumption of Bad Town for the moment, if only because I don't feel like digging into this more and would like to see what he contributes based on actual gameplay.
Who does that leave as your top scum read, other than LUV? (Again, putting LUV's unhelpfulness aside. Looking Actual scummy posting in thread)
I guess with the secondary follow up - Your initial case on LUV was that he was non-contributory / not helping solve, do you feel that is still the case now that he wrote a [wall of words]? (Seems like your answer is Yes but I don't want to put words in your mouth)
Follow up: I'd like to see LUV take a hard stance on something before I'm going to consider moving elsewhere.
Why Gamma?- Zoronos
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Earnest effort to solve with evidence of a town mindset, sure. Reducing that to 'trying' is a bit reductive but w/e.In post 319, nn30 wrote:Translation - Nn30 is cute, he's trying, ++town points.
I'm still wary of implosion. Since I'm not getting any traction with him at the moment, I'll drop it and see if I have anything to contribute to the other wagons occurring right now.
I also didn't say "you are wrong Implosion is town", I said your current case is not alignment indicating. Basically, you're hanging your hat on the rack for the wrong reason. Not necessarily that it's on the wrong rack. By all means, continue exploring and if I have something to contribute, I'll pipe up.- Zoronos
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Time to hit that load button then. (I didn't want to pre-answer in the event that it prejudices your response)In post 312, PenguinPower wrote:I get bad feels from him.
Gamma strikes me as the kind of person that likes to be 'technically correct'. As soon as he pounced on my 'Ascetic is like Miller' with a 'Well actually...', I figured that I was dealing with someone that placed a high value on conversational point scoring over communication of intent.In post 309, PenguinPower wrote: Original question: Gamma.
Follow up: I'd like to see LUV take a hard stance on something before I'm going to consider moving elsewhere.
This kind of play annoys me, however, I feel that it is less likely to come from scum because it's an inherently antagonistic stance. He didn't call me scum for thinking about Ascetic in terms of being like Miller since they were both negative utility; he just called me wrong and insinuated that I was bad. That's a stance that engenders bad feelings from me towards him, and as scum that's not in favor of his win condition (since negative perception aka anti-charisma means I'm more likely to interpret other things he says negatively, and thus more likely to vote him). Basically, either his personality is so in favor of winning internet arguments that he's willing to lower his chances of winning for it, or he's town being contentious for the sake of being contentious.
Even though he's voting me now, he hasn't brought that up at any point in his reasoning (others have, but w/e). That suggests it's just a personality thing for him. Ergo, town mindset.- Zoronos
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Do you feel it could be consistent with a scum who feels like they've been accused for bs reasons?In post 330, implosion wrote: I think the reaction of calling you bad town or scum is relatively unlikely to come from the scumgame that I saw in that game. 3, those posts in addition to contempt show a certain level of him feeling like he's in-the-right (since he's talking about how he was just being honest with his answers) that I think is consistent with town who feels like they've been accused for bs reasons.
Alas that hypocrisy is not alignment indicating. But actually being correct or incorrect is irrelevant to the point I was making; it was about personality and how he chose to engage with the thread / other players.In post 330, implosion wrote: Ironic since I can think of at least three counts in this game where he has used terminology (omgus, tunneling, and even literally calling LUV town) to mean things that they don't mean at all.
I don't think arguing about what a Miller is is likely to trick anybody into thinking that's valid content. It's pointless quibbling. Also, scum in my experience definitely mute pointless quibbling. Why be hostile to the people on whose good side you need to rely. Some personality types will do it anyway, but most will tamp it down. Not a solid tell, but enough to move the needle slightly.In post 330, implosion wrote: If anything this is scummier than if he had called you scum for his analysis; by taking the antagonistic stance towards you without actually giving any meaningful commentary on your alignment to go with it, he provides the illusion of content. And I don't think contentiousness is an aspect of personality that scum are likely to consciously mute to a large degree; maybe somewhat but *shrug*
As to the scumminess thereof, other players in this thread certainly tried that line. He could have +1'ed it and doubled down at any time on those player's votes. He chose to not do so. He seemed content to assume I was town or neutral and moved on with the game. He seemed to basically ignore me until I picked a fight with Grendel over Random Questions. If any conclusions can be made here, it's that was willing to board mid way when others had already started up the train, and when I got aggressive against Grendel.
However! We know he's played with Grendel before and stated a belief that Grendel was town (not one that I necessarily share, but we're exploring mindset and intent here). There is a plausible line of play where town Gamma reads my post about Grendel's methods, assumes I'm running a discredit line, and reflex votes. Built into that is his prejudice to be friendly (and assume Town) for Grendel since they're from the same forum and he stated a town read on Grendel, and to be unfriendly to me (since we argued earlier), but those prejudices make sense based on how the thread has gone so far.
Basically what I am saying here is that his vote on me is a textbook case of a not alignment indicating behavior, since there are similarly plausible play patterns for either alignment to have taken the actions observed.- Zoronos
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Putting the answers to the random questions completely aside, can you point to why Penguin is scum, based on things he's posted in game?In post 302, Grendel wrote:Oh and, I'm about to get really busy on something, and won't be on tonight.
See you all tomorrow... evening?- Zoronos
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Why specifically is that change suspicious? He was clearly entertaining the possibility of town in 221 (you summarized it above, 'Town playing poorly or Mafia'), and Grendel posted a whole bunch in between those two posts. Explain your thinking to me.In post 351, Dierfire wrote:The rapid change between 221 (Grendel is either Town playing poorly or Mafia) and 242 (Grendel is Town) is also suspicious to me. While I agree that the last line of 241 sounds more like the kind of thing that Grendel would say as Town than as Mafia, the speed of reversal from the aggression in the earlier posts makes me believe that the aggression was feigned.- Zoronos
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I was trying to put together a bucketization of the players, and couldn't decide how to bucket Implosion, then thought there was suddenly a hammer.
Here's what I had, but I'm a little less comfortable with my scum reads than normal. My enthusiasm for them is low, which suggests to me I'm missing a critical detail. So I've been trying to pick at my ???? tier of players. I don't like it when I'm not enthusiastic about my scum reads. Usually that correlates with lurking scum.
Spoiler: list time- Zoronos
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So, yes, tonal shift. But I feel you're explicitly missing the point of a post; look again at 232 and 241 and Penguin's reaction to it in 242. Penguin goes from aggressive to dismissive. I basically came to the same conclusion / point in 234. Grendel's posting is bad; not scummy bad, just dumb. The tone I get from Penguin is exasperation. He's moving from 'scum or bad town' to 'Oh gosh this is just earnest bad town', in my opinion.In post 489, Dierfire wrote:@Zoronos
In 221, PenguinPower is saying (as an immediate response to Grendel's post above) that the case that Grendel presents against PenguinPower is groundless, and that this makes Grendel either Town playing poorly or Mafia. The phrasing communicates a certain level of aggressive pushback. When I read 242, the aggressive pushback seems to have disappeared (while the essence of the argument that Grendel's suspicions are unfounded remains). To me, this suggests that 221 was intended to simulate an emotional reaction. I'm also not sure that I see anything from Grendel in the intervening posts that would persuasively point to Town alignment for someone who had such a strong feeling that Grendel was playing so poorly as to possibly be masking Mafia intent, but the tonal shift is the main point.In post 362, Zoronos wrote:
Why specifically is that change suspicious? He was clearly entertaining the possibility of town in 221 (you summarized it above, 'Town playing poorly or Mafia'), and Grendel posted a whole bunch in between those two posts. Explain your thinking to me.In post 351, Dierfire wrote:The rapid change between 221 (Grendel is either Town playing poorly or Mafia) and 242 (Grendel is Town) is also suspicious to me. While I agree that the last line of 241 sounds more like the kind of thing that Grendel would say as Town than as Mafia, the speed of reversal from the aggression in the earlier posts makes me believe that the aggression was feigned.
The cause of the town shift is very simple; he is super fucking adamant that his method works. That's basically the most responsibility seeking behavior possible; in the face of multiple people telling him that his method won't catch scum and moving on, he chooses instead to double down on his poor method. He all but stamped his feet and crossed his arms in the thread. It's perhaps the least responsibility avoidant behavior I've seen this entire game.
So, you're either missing an obvious cause for the tone shift, or not understanding the tone shift. There is a better case available against Penguin (in my mind), so I'm really curious why you chose this specific case.- Zoronos
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Gamma is probably town. Also, the odds of Gamma and PP being scum together is very low. If they are, they've been working very hard to distance from each other all game. I think it's more likely at least one is town. They've been sniping at one another pretty consistently this game.
Unless PP has decided he's dead and Gamma is already on the bus and PP is just waving for the train to complete, I don't see them being a scum team pair. Likelyhood of both scum: Low.- Zoronos
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I'm not convinced yet that PP is town, but I agree that amongst the cases on PP, I dislike Dierfire's case. (As can be surmised from my initial question, and response above this). So, I am vaguely in support of this sentiment.In post 512, Gamma Emerald wrote:I'm feeling like the most likely person to be scum on PP's wagon was Dierfire. Also, my SS read has shifted to the town side.
VOTE: Dierfire- Zoronos
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In this theoretical world, who are the town on your wagon?In post 519, PenguinPower wrote:Second question: That's a strange conclusion. I think there a some town on my wagon that seem to be doing worthwhile things, and if my lynch gets them moving on the right track, then...yeah. String me up.- Zoronos
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I may be projecting, since I moved from aggressive/dismissive to straight up dismissive. But, I think that's the accurate read on Penguin's tone and that yours is wrong.In post 533, Dierfire wrote:I suppose that the best explanation that I could give is this: I'm not seeing the tone shift from aggressive to dismissive, but more like aggressive/dismissive to avoidant.
If you see a better case (and if it doesn't look to be related to my existing line of questioning), I would like to hear it (particularly given your most recent posting).
The case I would make, if I were doing one, would look about like this:
I'd be focusing on if I were looking at Penguin's interactions with Grendal was his pejorative "Are you a first year psych student or something?" -> It's an attack on credibility of the player, rather than the argument.
I think his original case (312) on Gamma was flawed. He cracks back at Gamma for Gamma's Implosion vote (Implosion talked about A, then voted B without any further mention of that player), which was an incongruence on the part of Implosion; I can see a town mindset where Gamma brings that up. So painting it as scummy is incorrect. Going after Gamma for it is not really reasonable; it's searching for something that can be painted as guilty but which has no real correlation with guilt.
Similarly, going after the wording 'serious vote' is silly; why is clarity suddenly a scumtell.
I attempted to engage him on Gamma, but he just waved it away without discussion (327) then voted 335. I can kinda see a world here were PP thinks I'm just a moron, and envisions an Implosion / Gamma scum team, but he already got on Gamma's case for voting Implosion, and now he's voting Gamma for thinking Implosion is town.
So, yeah, I think Penguin's case on Gamma was built on a heap of not alignment indicating factors, and that to me says it's a bad case and one worthy of attack.
He's also not spending any time working with other players or cooperatively developing reads. He's camped out in his own valley, where he mostly just squabbles with Gamma and Grendel; not very contributory towards the greater town objective.
HoweverI am not really ready to make that case yet. There are some counter indicating factors I'd like to sort out first.
Reading the connecting theme of his posts, there is a strong tone of aggrieved frustration. Between asking for the lynch to complete, complaining at Grendal about his methodology (without calling Grendal scum, this is important), and generally just sniping at Gamma. When he noted that Salandar's slot was afk, that's could be a legitimate frustration. Having someone just not participate is shitty for town, so it's easy to envision a town getting annoyed at an obvious oversight. For scum it's much less of an issue (unless that slot is also scum) since it's one less person they have to trick.
I also think your commentary in 515 is off base. It's NAI (in my opinion) for him to note it. He responded to Grendel (in a frustrated fashion), posted about an AFK, and then went right back to talking to Grendel. It wasn't some epic deflection.- Zoronos
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Village Idiot.In post 535, MariaR wrote:VI means?- Zoronos
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I am (pointedly) not voting you. You're not my top suspect. Anyway.In post 538, PenguinPower wrote:Grendel, boring, nn30, maybe you. Of course, several have dropped off my wagon now.
I'm really not sure what to think about Boring at this point; what makes you think she's town? She's in the middle of my ???? bucket.
I may be giving her less credit than she deserves because of that 'small coat' metaphor.- Zoronos
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I have mentioned this a couple times, but I am leaning town on Gamma.In post 545, nn30 wrote:@Zoro - what are your thoughts on my 542?
I don't find the base act of inconsistency to be scummy. If his reasoning doesn't match his conclusion, that's scummy. If he's calling someone scum for things that aren't alignment indicating, that's scummy. But just changing his mind? not indicating, imo. I find that scum try a lot harder than town to be 'consistent' in their reads, whereas town just post whatever is on the top of their heads at the moment they thing it so just reversing course tells me little.
I also don't find 'outing' or declaring a town read to be scummy, *assuming that town read is supported by reasoning*. There's nothing wrong with bucketing a player into 'I don't want to lynch this slot'. I also put basically no stock in meta soo.....
I think his read on SS is wrong, so my question to Gamma here is "Why the heck is SS town?!?".
But basically I'm not super convinced by 542.- Zoronos
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I believe that Grendel is town, and have said that a couple times now. I think most of his questions are bad and his lines of inquiry (prior to today. I really haven't taken the time yet to process the stuff that has happened today) betray a lack of knowledge about what behaviors are actually scummy. His beliefs, whoever wrong or poorly guided, seems sincerely held however. He's trying to solve the game, or at least giving a damn good impression that he's trying to do so. That says townish to me.
One thing that stands out to me is that he seems to think calling something wrong and calling something scummy are one and the same. Which is not true, but it is an indication that he very much wants to be taken seriously and have his views respected.
I threw together a bit of a reads list in 393 and my reads on Boring and Maria haven't really changed since that point. I find both have been content light, exempting Boring's last reads list which I haven't really internalized yet. Some of it I disagree with, some of it I agree with (I'll come back to this in a bit).
Maria explicitly mentioned that she doesn't want to share in the 405 through 408 sequence, and I really just don't know how to play through that. It's so off the wall I don't find myself able to shake my head and call it scummy. It just is so orthogonal to the way I analyze the game I don't know how to engage her. So, basically, bucket of ????.
Boring is in the ???? bucket as well. I really don't understand her 'strong town' reading on Shadow_Step. He's at the top of her town list and it makes no sense to me. She cites aggresiveness and grandiosity as town tells, and the former I don't find a town tell unless backed by reasoning and consensus building, and the later I don't think I see in ShadowStep's posting. I agree with her Implosion read at the time she made it, for basically the reason she listed in her list, so I'm wondering if I don't have that read wrong.
Basically, I feel like she's coasting in the middle of the pack, and that itself puts me on edge. I am not seeing effort to get out front and lead a case or do real deep scum hunting. But some of her opinions and thoughts are quite solid, so I am conflicted on her to sort her.
The dichotomy between Boring and Maria here is interesting; Maria is hard to sort because she is content light (apparently purposefully), and Boring is hard to sort because some of her content makes me go "Yup, that's scummy def" and some is "Well, that is pretty darn reasonable".- Zoronos
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I am catching back up, but here is what I had on Friday: 393[/[pst].In post 568, eagerSnake wrote:Zoronos, Slandaar, Lil Uzi Vert, Grendel, MariaR
Who do you think is suspicious and why (2 points)
Dierfire's response to questioning his moved him towards the scummier side of my ???? bucket. I think his case on PP was hung on non alignment indicating behaviors; check [post]523 for reasoning.
Prism I am holding in abeyance until he catches up and am trying to ignore that his main read is that I am town, so as not to bias my judgement.
Implosion was in my scum pile in that list, but I find myself agreeing with a lot of the things he wrote in 562, specifically his thinking on PP and Boring. I disagree with what he wrote in 565; see below for commentary on 399, and I don't find sarcasm to be towny or scummy, so citing it for town points is out of step. I also maintain that his read on gamma is wrong. So, Implosion is moving in the right (townier) direction, but there are still some unresolved ???? there. At the very least, I find some of his reads questioning or not in agreement with my own.
I am still happy with leaving Shadow_step in my scum list for the moment. I don't feel like he's driving the game in a productive direction. I especially don't like 399; that seems to me like he's building a hedge into a town read in case he needs to turn it around later. Same in 397.
See my post above this one for commentary on Boring. That's a slot which my gut dislikes but I haven't gotten enough real data on to make a decision via logic.
I'm going to sleep, so let me know if you want me to expound on any of this and I can do so when it's not 6am.- Zoronos
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Eh, Grendel I feel like I understand. I think his posting is towny; he appears to be making an earnest attempt to solve the game. I think his methods are ineffective and it's taking him to conclusions I don't agree with, but that's not the same as scummy or content light.In post 582, eagerSnake wrote:Throw Grendel in there and lol
(Is 'lol' supposed to be LUV there, or am I just misreading your post entirely?)- Zoronos
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Well.
The fuck is all this.
Okay, going to try to unpack thoughts a bit:
I ISO'ed Shadow first because frankly he was in my scum list before. His behavior is roughly consistent with a CC, which pains me to say because that means my reads list from previous was super wrong. He does come back to Eager over and over as his touchstone, and frankly I do the same thing when I think I have a lock scum - Get everyone's reads on that player to look for partners. What I can't figure out in that context is he continue to whip votes for LUV after Eager's claim, and then moved on on PP. If he has a hard counter-claimed Eager, why LUV / PP? I get PP more in that context, based on him questioning PP for a read on Eager and PP ignoring it.
I like Maria's commentary on Implosion instantly calling Eager's claim scummy; that's a good analysis of hidden information. Of course it only works if Eager is actually scum, which I'm not frankly super convinced about yet, but +1 Insightful.
Eager:
Why did you vote Boring here: - Zoronos
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