California Trilogy - Dantès in Fresno (Game Over!)

[IH]

/confirm

We can only bold stuff in votes and unvotes? = ( This is going to be difficult.

I see votes and unvotes must be at the bottom of the posts and such.

Seems like it's more work enforcing these rules then the labor they actually save <.<;;

On the other hand, we need to watch people and make sure that when they vote, they don't try to abuse these rules.

Clearly, only a foul scumbag, cursed by the powers that be (read: mith) into being a god-forsaken, evil semblance of a man, would, at this point in the game, use Condorcet voting.

Confirm Vote: Skruffs

Curious how serious this is.

Why is everyone voting Skruffs for going ahead to use the list system? It's not like he gets extra votes, it seems it's only used for deadline lynches. How is it perceived as a bad thing to ensure a lynch happens as such? Just curious if this is just a focal point for a random bandwagon or not.

I almost just FoSed my Predecessor.

What the...? Why does Skruffs have four vote?

FoS:Cubsfan

I find it very interesting that Zindie felt a need for clarification on this point. That question makes me very uneasy. Quite like Zindy is looking for a way to seem more townlike. It's completely a hunch, but it's definately good enough for a D1 initial vote.

How so? Zindy asked for clarification on Bah posts? Zindy clarified that Iocaine powder doesn't have a smell? (which everyone would know if you had ever watched the Princess Bride)

Scruffs hit the scum meter with this post, but for the reason of the fact that, in his initial vote, he listed he would rather lynch "NO LYNCH" over "MGM". He then goes back to saying he has neither played with or wants to hear from them. Yet, by his initial vote, he has NO desire to hear from MGM

This may have some Merit. I'm unsure if it means that Skruffs is scum, but it does have some merit.

LML needs to spell Skruffs right.

Skruff's question of why did he put MGM on there at all was a better one, which would indicate that it didn't matter too much, since if he would truly want MGM alive, he just wouldn't have put him on the list.

I'm still unsure what it indicates.

FoS:LML

How is that a misrepresentation? I explained myself. Were you there, scruffs, when MoS rolled his dice?

How can you prove this though? It's kind of something that is useless to go after.

FoS:LML

I like some statements in VitR's post 74. I dislike ones defending LML (like "he put his opinion" when he is trying to use it as a point of suspicion against MoS and his Dice)

I'm lumping MoS and his dice voting with LML attacking him, as anyone attacking a random vote, because "scumbuddies like to vote each other in randomvoting!"

What is the list tag? Also we're allowed to use the URL tag? o.o;
Test-:Roll:

I would love to know why I am now on your list, especially we're voting for the same person.

Is Jeep exhibiting a scumtell?

FoS-LML

for the vaguery of "is Jeep exhibiting a scumtell"

Dragon Pheonix votes should be counted since in the rules, "Mispellings" and the like are counted.

I find Skruffs to be town at this point (Post 90 something) I INSULT SKRUFFS INTELLIGENCE! <3

List for reference atm-LML, DP, Talitha, VitR

The only reason I can see for NOT using a list in your vote is if you are scum and haven't yet figured out how you plan to make your list so that it reduces your risk while not tipping your hand.

vote: MGM, PlaysWithSquirrels, LoudMouthLee, Skruff

But unless we're nearing the end of the two weeks, other than to just indicate your suspicions, is there any reason to use condorcet voting yet? Just curious as to why you think MGM is suspicious for that....

Err Sanarth'd by CES.

(Seriously, MOS, why not just say it's random, rather than that whole easily-fakeable demo??? There is no level on which I get that, and it even seems a slight "honestly, guys, I'm honest!" move, you know?)

Because Dice Tags aren't allowed.

I find Cubsfan closer to town from post 132. Indication he just doesn't want to jump on an easy Skruffs wagon.

Talitha uses the word one too much = (

My belief: dice-tags and proven-random votes have no place, while arbitrary and possibly-random votes have a place.

Whats the difference?

I've decided to coin a term today.
Metascummy (Adj)
definition: behaviour that is unhelpful to the town but defended as supposedly unscummy due to the user's universal use of the tactic.

By your definition, smileys, jokes, pictures, and anything superfluous is scummy (indicated by the "supposedly unscummy") Which is horribly untrue.

LML and Adele seem to be arguing a point of semantics. Adele is attacking him because she just doesn't like dice rolls. LML is attacking him because they could have been faked.

Either way it is a null tell and a senseless argument.

Current list-LML, Adele, Jeep, VitR,

Okay, I've been asked why pro-town folks would want to use lists instead of a single vote. Well, because there is no reason not to, if you are pro-town. It's not that there is a compelling reason TO use the list. There is just no reason not to unless you are scum.

DP, you are correct that using a list before the deadline has no purpose. It didn't sink in that the lists would ONLY be used at the deadline. For some reason I thought that lists would be used more often. It's still not good policy to discourage people from using lists.

-JEEP

Ok there is no reason not to as town
but there is no reason to do so before deadline as town either.

Wouldn't this therefore be considered null?

one of Thesp's quotes struck me as interesting.

MoS's odd diceroll list is odd. I am unsure, at this time, if it is scummy.

What happened to this? How did it become scummy?

I find Thesp to be more protown with his last post.

I think at this point, condorcent voting has been blown out of proportion, and the importance they hold in the random stage.

Among players who stated as such would be Jeep and LML (LML for Skruffs nolynch and MGM, Jeep for the stance that there is no reason town players shouldn't do it, so all town players that aren't doing it are scummy. Somehow thats a logical fallacy)

Skruffs logic and posting styles looks like usual Skruffs town.

I would also find DP closer to being town as well.

I still don't see this as likely to happen at all, but I will answer you. It provides all the obvious information, eg. that the person was town, that Jeep wanted to lynch them as a 3rd/6th choice, and obviously others must have had him/her listed for a lynch as well. Now I ask to you, how much difference does it make if Jeep invents a logical sounding reason for all of those he has listed, to appease you? There are a thousand reasons he could make up, and people who have been playing this game a while are most likely going to be convincing. I am not saying that giving reasons never helps, I am saying don't stifle people from voting by pretending that it's a rule that votes must be accompanied by a reason.

Because if I am still alive later in the game and re-reading over day 1 trying to find the scum, I will be looking at the votes first, the reasons second.

In italics-Why? Wouldn't you think it more significant they didn't have a reason, or do you mean the later on condercent voting things.

i think I've repeatedly butchered the spelling on that.

Adele's logic looks like she's been trying to think of a reason why she could make random voting into something scummy.

I don't like post 181 from Adele either....

Guys... Jeep is scum....

For MGM to discourage the use of lists that way (Jeep Zindie exchange posts 183-189) For MGM to be discouraging lists, he'd have to have done it subversively, as he said, while things are hazy, he isn't going to. He isn't discouraging anyone else, he's just personally not going to do it.

So by that logic, anyone NOT doing it is discouraging it.

Therefore, anyone not doing it, is scummy, which is untrue.

Yes MoS,

I'm not saying your scum because of making a random vote.

I am saying you are scum because of the effort you've taken to make sure that your vote is seen as completely random.

Why go to that effort unless you have something to hide?
Heck if you had just voted alphabetically it would've taken much less effort, been about as random, and had about the same impact on the game in terms of voting(which is to say pretty much none at all since random votes are kinda worthless and I doubt we'll move into the stage where Condorcet actually plays out on day one)

Preview/Copy and paste ftw! No effort at all! That would make your effort argument moot.

VitaminR: made a positive contribution to the game in post 74, picking Scrubbs apart. Likely townie, even if he votes for me. Pretty strong town vibes.

Possible copy and paste? Just going off his old answers? Unsure. Noted.
(Same Skruffs typo. Not continuing the joke, as he already called Skruffs as "Skruffs" earlier in the post.)

I don't like Xyzzy's post 246. I kind of want him on my list.

I still think Jeep's logic on Condorcents is flawed. Especially towards the beginning of the day.

I think some things are being assumed in Adele's post 256 that are A. not plausible, or B.Do not have a place in this game (AKA Hypothetical)

Like MoS posting his random voting to be distracting.

Her Metascummy argument

Her argument about making MoS talking about making motivations clear. It's not exactly relevant about something being anti game. A player giving their motivations as a defense is not anti game.

I don't undestand that sentence, I'm afraid; If you're asking if I'm saying one of them is the case here, the answer's "I don't think so". If you're asking if I think they are really possible plays in games generally, then yes, absolutely.

I think he was asking if you think it's ever happened.

I find MGM to be closer to protown atm....

Third, I'm falling behind in the thread slowly. School just started,

I've got a lot of frat things I have to deal with because rush week has started.

This game is amazingly star-studded, but I've got another of these "post everyday" games over on MT plus a small array of other minis. I'm trying to catch up, but unfortunately it might be better if I'm replaced =/.

The underlined part is very significant.
A frat boy who plays mafia.
AND likes arrested development? O.O

You are voting me, and if I come up innocent, Cubs is very likely scum. But you didn't address, what if I come up scum, as you seem to be so sure I am (based on your votes)? Does that make cubs likely innocent? It's not hard for me to theorize that you only did one half of the equation because you already know I'm not scum. Error of omission.
I love how you can say "Skruffs hasn't convinced me", but you don't, say, explain why not, or give me the option to answer questions you have. No, you'd prefer to just say I haven't done a good enough job, and move on from there. You were more than willing to hop onto a quick wagon when you had the chance, and now your 'player posts' refer to not one, but -

I would say this is faulty. More likely that DP thought it was a null tell if you came up scum.

Skruffs does what he does from time to time. Just looking at things some way that nobody else seems to and loses everyone. <3 Skruffs.

I can never get a read on Skruffs = (

= ( Oh I replaced Oman right after he posted.

I'm sad and feel mean.

What?!?!? Scum will only do pro-scum stuff that they don't realize is pro-scum. If they do stuff that they think is pro-scum, they are stupid. This has got to be the most backwards thing I've read in a LONG time.

-JEEP

Jeep if he did it without knowing it's proscum, and thought it was protown, then how is it scummy? Thats faulty that scum don't do proscum things they know are scum.
If he thinks it might not be proscum, then how is him doing it a scumtell?
Oh Jeep is being replaced. Fart.

Ok, now for my list so far, in no particular order, except for the voting, man it feels good using a bolded tag = )

Sorry if this post feels incoherent. I really read this game indepth, and tried to comprehend everything. Also I tried to proofread = D

Town-Pooky, Skruffs, Talitha, Thesp, Zindy, CES, DP, MGM

Neutral-Tamuz, Logictus, MoS, PWS

Vote:Jeep/Jeeps replacement

, LoudMouthLee, Adele, Xyzzy, Foolinc, Cubsfan4ever, VitR, PWS, Logictus, MoS, Tamuz

[IH]

Foolinc needs to post.

Call me a conspiracy theorist, but someone who wants clarification on a "Bah" post is someone who wants the town to ultimately think that they will be nightkilled, and will be "in need" of a Bah! Post. I don't know if that makes sense, but to me, anyone who asks for clarification of rules in thread (IE: Mod, I need clarification of my role) is generally scum. I have used this scumtell in scumchat numerous times, and I feel it's pertinent.

False. You automatically disregard a lynch or a vig kill.

FoS:LML

Horrible scumtell.

I wanted to know WHY he felt the need to go and make such a extravagant to-do over it. Why not just "random vote- blah blah blah"? Instead, I feel that MoS "wanted us to definately know" his vote was random. It looked forced. Which, of course, was something you accuse me of later.

It's already been proved it took all of five minutes to do so. You could use the same argument for anyone who wants to use dice tags.

This is not relevant at all to early game.

If someone misattributed you to being "misrepresentful", you would be ALL over them too. Stop playing the holier than thou card. It's been discussed in this thread that, in turn, I wasn't misrepresenting anyone. Skruff's inability, at that time, to see that made me lose my temper. I am, after all, LoudmouthLee.

So did you understand what Skruffs meant? If you understood what he meant, then why are you attacking him for a pedantic of language? This is what bothered me. You most definitely ignored the arguments, and shouted "THat wasn't a misrepresentation!" and I'm pretty sure you understood the points from him.

Why? Are you afraid I'm going to catch you? Are you afraid that I'm going to call you on:

a) Making a case on me that really isn't a case at all?
b) Not adding anything to the conversation besides a throwback to IS?
or is it...
c) You just don't have anything better to do?

You're BETTER than this, Thesp.

FoS: Thesp

That didn't look like anything that wasn't a standard Thesp statement, after he's already asked questions. He's announced it before and continues to make his stance clear.
While this will be something of note, I'm unsure how much merit it has on day 1, and any questions you ask of the above and conclusions you make will be awfully inconclusive until we know one of your alignments.

unvote, vote:LML

[IH]

hey guys, i'm here. Dont worry-tomorrow i will reread, solve this entire game, and we can all go to my brother's house for tea.

Good Lord, lets just abandon this game now.

OK hun.

All numbers refer to Tally's PC

0: nada
1: Nada
2: Cubs is 2nd in her votecount, but mentioned nowhere else.
3: nada
4. Vote with Cubs still in it, nothing about it
5. Locking in the vote (this is where I made a mistake with zealous ctrl + F'ing)
6. nada
7. nada
8. Finally talks about cubs. and votes him.


So mistake with it being three, since one of the posts was a EBWOP, but there are still two instances with cubs being in the top of your concordet without you actually having a said a word about him, then you go and scribble two sentences about him, far less than other suspicions of yours (read PWS) and he becomes your top vote. I just don[t follow you.

How far down in the condorcent voting was he? This is very important.

I seriously don't like how Cubsfan just seems to be posting minimum. He's easily hiding in the activity.

Tag corrected. - Mod

[IH]

Does day end in around 4 days?

[IH]

I don't really know what you mean here. Obviously I can't just not post since we have a posting requirement. I do not see how am I "hiding" or could hide even if I wanted to. This post just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

The posting recquirement is what lets you "hide" in plain sight. With such an influx of large posts so quickly, if you post the 25 word requirement every 48 hours, and nothing more, then you stay in the game, and can essentially hide in the larger posts.

[IH]

Why does day end in four days? I would think that while a deadline is useful, making everyone post every other day leads to a wealth of information. There are five or six players who have just replaced in who should have a chance to get their opinions out, as well, before the day is snubbed short.

According to the rules, day lasts two weeks, and then if no one has been lynched, then the condorcent voting comes into play.

it seems that post 328 has some random stuff.....

And I'm still confused about why Jeep replaced out, if it doesn't have to do with his family. Does jeep normally back out of games if he is put under any amount of pressure? That's what it looks like to me, which is why I would like some clarification. I wouldn't want to go chasing down a wrong alleyway.

It's useless to speculate about this, but considering how long Jeep has been playing, and making his "list of scumtells" and such, it could be for any number of reasons. Using this against BM isn't valid I think.

FoS:Skruffs

I think....

I'd feel better with a BM or LML lynch personally.

So, it's interesting to note my two top suspects are voting for LML ... I'm not sure if this means Lee is innocent, or if he's getting bussed, or if i'm wrong

Who is that? Just curious.

MGM, Cubsfan has made six posts in this game so far.
Just use the filter at the bottom.

[IH]

K.
Dp, you arent interested in a name claim, presumably because, just like you have been since your original band wagon vote, which you hastily found reasons for later, you just want me to be lynched. I'm presuming that it is better play to actually hunt scum rather than blindly try to get someone lynched.

If i do not understand back peddling, then, please explain why you only added sk as an option after i asked you about it?

Ih, i can understand that jeep may have left for any reason, but i seem to recall the mod posting that jeeps replacement doesnt have to do with his family. If it did, i wouldnt be curious, and im not fossing BM over it. You avoided the two family thing because oman also said a similar thing about me and DP, i am guessing? If i am wrong, just point it out to me.

Is Anyone else who is voting me not interested in a name claim? Or would they rather keep pushing for a mislynch?

Well, it said it didn't have to do with Jeep's sister, who he had already expressed concern for and been slightly away for it, remember?
Also, how does a name claim help us at all? Just curious.

[IH]

btw, if you think that hypotheticals don't have a place in the game, then, sucks to be you. I don't know how not to argue with hypotheticals - they're too big a part of my brain.

There' a difference between a hypothetical and a very specific hypothetical <.<;

Yeah IH isnt doing anything to alleviate my vote which was based on his predecessor.

Curious what makes you feel this way. Pooky sounds like his is a gut. Yours sounds like I have done something specific which makes you suspicious of me.

For why I have voted LML see post 311 (in response to peoples "Why is there an LML wagon")

[IH]

^agree^

[IH]

Glork/Primate-I'm ready for you two to have a disagreement in thread = )

You are up to date on the theme of the game, right? I can't tell if this is fishing or not.

Read closer. "loosely" based.

GLORK SUXXORZ

It proves I have other things to do than going to the front post every time someone is replaced so I can fix my vote list, but have it your way.

Unvote;
Vote: Jeep/BM, Logicticus, xyzzy, LoudmouthLee, Skruffs, VitaminR, [Tamuz/Thestatusquo, Oman/IH, Thesp, Talitha, PookyTheMagicalBear, Dani Banani/Mastermind of Sin, foolinc, Cubsfan4ever], [Adele, Dragon Phoenix, Cogito Ergo Sum, Zindaras, Gaspar/PlaysWithSquirrels], No lynch, Mgm

1.Tamuz has clarified it about 4-5 times,
2.The mod announces replacements in thread

More later.

[IH]

Please pay close attention to the wording here - this is a subtle point, a freudian slip. "If I mention a second family, this implies that there is a first" - as if he's talking not about how things might be, but how they are.

Except that was a smart ass comment. (Good job! If I mention a second one, I'm betting theres a first)

FAIL

In t'middle o' t' readthrough now. Finish it tomorrow n' post notes.

Who is this posting?

BM why did you answer when Thesp said he wanted to hear Adele's thoughts for himself?

[IH]

Condorcent list in a bit.

I'm not trying to "reach" anything. His replacement, in and of itself, is not based on him breaking the rules, and not from teh family thing, which spurred a question: "Why?". I am sorry that some people do more than bandwagon vote to figure out who is scum or not. If jeep has a scum=tell where he leaves or replaces otu of a game if he screws up somehow, than yeah, I will definitely move my vote to him. Some of the more experienced players in the game may very well be able to point that out. I have no idea. REMEMBER: NEVER PLAYED WITH HIM. It probably was not very tactful to probe into the events surrounding his departure, but, I went there.

This is extremely wifom and misleading. All it does is cast doubt on Jeep. The question itself is useless because there are way to many variables.

I would personally not count it scummy towards Skruffs himself because this just looks like the kind of tangent Skruffs would take regardless of alignment. = \

on the other hand....

Again, do not take me ASKING if jeep's request to be replaced as SAYING that he is scummy. I was asking because I have no idea. If I thought it was, I would not have asked.

This waffling I would consider scummy.

Most of your posts have been (rightly) asking why I got such a wagon on me and saying I'm town, etc. I appreciate it, to a point. You did something similar to this in Anime mafia as an SK. Are you scum?

Please answer this cubsfan.

I agree with post 363

Xyzzy needs to post. Gogogogo.

I like MGM's post 369, though his quote about DP never saying there were two families are misleading. Pretty much both Skruff and DP are being scummy about that one = \

BM, some questions.

I didn’t like MgM’s opening vote of CES. It looked like an attempt to protect himself from an inevitable vote (no respectable player likes to resort to OMGUS).

What? How? I'm confused....

Skruffs seems to be posting prolifically, and evidently seems keen to contribute. On the other hand, the speed of the BW on him, seems more like bussing than an attempted mislynch…

Wow. How uncomittal. Why do you think it's bussing?

Also didn’t like the way DP deliberately put Skruffs at -4. Requires explanation imo.

How is this scummy?

Then Jeep joins in, as does Oman, who puts Skruffs at -2! I also disagreed with several aspects of DP’s analysis in post 115. Post 132 seems like a roundabout way of saying “Skruffs hasn’t done anything wrong, LEAVE HIM ALONE.” Lol

Are you sure Skruffs made it to Lynch -2?

MgM joins DP bandwagonning Jeep.

Now, first you don't like DP putting skruffs at minus 4, now you don't like him "bandwagoning jeep" yet this had reasons for it. Why do you just look at the vote and ignore the reasons?

Oh god. Post 148 is a corker. I’ve seen this stuff from Oman before. The only time you are likely to see Oman so cautious about joining a BW is when he is scum. CES meanwhile, gives me town vibes. VitR also seems to make a lot of sense at the top of page 7.

I'd like metagaming proof. I want specific games. Sounds like you're pulling this out of thin air.

Interesting to see the numbers jumping to the aid of DP, despite the early stage of the game. Xyzzy is among these in post 156. I think Foolinc was helpful with his post early in the game, concerning potential characters. On the other hand, I felt his analysis of the players, later in the game, was less than brilliant. TSQ finally shows up, exhibiting a desire not to be replaced, yet also an inclination not to help the town.

BM fails at looking at dates, and only at post numbers.
BM has pretty much omgused his way onto the vote list. He has completely ignored any reasons or cases against Jeep, or anyone else, and just views it as a bandwagon.
I am pretty certain my vote will be moving back to him when I make up my voting list.

MgM-Erm, unfortunately, no i can't, as the game is still in progress. Hence this can only serve as a validation for my vote, but it would be interesting to see whether others who have seen OMan play before as scum, can corroborate my suggestion.

Exactly what I thought.

I will explain again: People who ask for clarification in thread, IMHO are trying to appear more townie when they are really not.

This is stupid. How does that make you appear more townie? You are citing a SCUMCHAT game. For a BAH post. This is not valid.

I'm uncertain how you have such divination powers. ("You would have acted like Z" arguments are always very problematic - and troublesome.)

I don't. I get angry (need proof?) when I get bandwagoned / mislynched / etc. as pro-town. I det downright insulting and nasty. I'm trying to break that habit. I know many excellent players who do the same thing.

Err, what?

PR3 - 24 players, One family, one faction, both hinted at in opening post

Untrue. You forget about the trio killers and the mafia. Thats two families. Two groups of scum.

Except for PR3, which was a bit of an exception anyways, any game witwh two families referenced those families in the first post. Maybe there are tons of games that break the mold, but these are the games I have had experience with.

You wouldn't consider this game a "bit of an exception"!?!?!

Largely. It seems to me that the fact that LML was vocal about what he saw as scummy is mostly what led to this position. He just picked out a few things and voted people for them. I don't see it.

No. Not at all. It's not him being vocal and loud about it. It's what he's accusing people of. I don't like him saying that a question about a bah post is scummy. I don't like him saying that MoS went out of his way to look like dice tags, even though it has been stated MULTIPLE times that it would take all of three minutes to do so.

I'm conflicted over Adele's post 388. I like most of the points, but I still think she misinterpreted this quote.

. Congratulations on the astute observation that if I mention a second family, that this implies that there is a first. Excellent. If you think my next comment you refer to (about there also being a possibility of one family and a SK) is backpedalling, then you don't understand the meaning of that word.

I still think this, which was apparently her deciding factor, didn't actually have that much to do with it. I mean I automatically assumed it was hypothetical in a smart ass way. "Duh, if I was going to talk about a second, there is a first". I mean, how else can you talk about a second unless there is a first? Or else the second family would be the first by default.

Adele,

So you are voting for DP because he seems to have slipped up indicting that there are two families. So my question is, do you believe that DP has some sort of role that gives him information that there are 2 families?

Typically in a 2 family game, the families are ignorant of each other. Its not until they see a death of the other family that they realize they are not alone.

Pssshhhht
^^^^The sound of a hole being poked in a case.

I would like both Skruffs and Adele to respond to this post by Logictus.

Hi, QFT, kthxbai.

Question. You QFT'd it, but seem to disregard Jeep's main point. His point that it is scummy to not use it. Do you agree? If so, why? Why is it scummy not to?

I think this whole logic of "if Skruffs turns out to be innocent than it means Cubs is scum" is a great big pile of crap logic. As town I think part of my duty is to not only ensure that scum is lynched but work towards that in part by ensuring people that I think are town are not lynched. I do not think it is scummy to defend somebody that you think is town. It's something that could be scummy but to use that alone was somehow evidence that I am ultra-scum does not work.

So.... as a duty of a protown player could you do more than post 25 words per 48 hours?

@Talitha-what you say is true, but i dont want to intentionally mislynch here. Atm my vote is most likely to go to DP, though if necessary i will go back to Cubs in order to assure a lynch.
Dont worry-i'm as bloodthirsty as they come. I just try and employ a little logic first.

So can we kill this guy yet?

No. It's not. There still hasn't even been a remotely decent case on me. So far, you're voting me because:

-You dont agree with the scumtell I cited (and, while I'm at it, Thesp, do you think Zin's playing a pro-town game?)

-You think that my anger at Scruffs is manufactured.

-

You think I'm being too aggressive.

(nods) You have one kickass case.

Please cite this italicized part.

Notice BM unvoted and never resubmitted a condorcent list. Which means his condorcent list has been reset.

Yes I am voting like this for a reason, and I do still want BM dead.

unvote, vote:LML

Battlemage, Cubsfan, Xyzzy, Adele

[IH]

Have you actually read my posts? Did you not read the lengthy explanations about how posting Concordet votes helps the town? Did you see my explanations on how not-posting them (and/or discouraging others to post them by calling them pointless or scummy) hurts the town?

Minor FoS: IH for simply not paying any attention to what's going on.

Yes I read, and I disagree. Especially in the beginning of the game, which this is mostly about. Not using a condorcent list is not scummy for sake of keeping things simple in the beginning.

I have only used it twice myself. This accomplishes the same thing as someone listing their scum list. Do you expect everyone to do that in every game automatically and everytime?

IH putting Lee on his vote while in effect only moving BM up since his vote was already on Lee so he's effectively while putting Lee in his "vote part" actually exonerating Lee by putting BM ahead of him in Condorcet Rankings since he is moving up BM. Looks Hella scummy.(Someone correct me if I'm misinterpreting how these condorcet rankings work)

Yes, since I pointed it out.

The latter part of your sentence isn't really true. LML is voting MoS because he said it looked contrived. That has little to do with how long it takes. It seems strange to vote someone purely for disagreeing with their argumentation, especially since he hasn't really pushed the Zindy thing all that much.

I believe his main contention was that he went to great efforts to make it look random, just so it would look random. When it really is a simple process this argument loses alot of gusto. The only way it would have taken him a great deal of effort is if he was actually trying to contrive it.

5. DP had reasons for BWing Jeep, but from what i can gather from my own comments, those reasons were either copied, or very very 'suspect'.

How?

Hey-didnt you just accuse me of trying to cast bogus suspicion onto people without committing to a vote? strange how comments like that come back and bite you in the butt, eh?
Metagame evidence is often only valid for the individual who has that experience. I cannot refer to ongoing games, as even if nobody here is playing in those games, information here will probably leak, and it will ruin those games for everyone. If you don't believe me, why dont you go and find some COMPLETED games of Oman's in order to refute my claims. I mean, you love metagaming proof right?

Since you're the one who brought it up, you should already have a completed game where it is valid.

You think me naming post numbers in order to make it clearer for the rest of you, is a scumtell? ROFLMAO! I'm not quite sure how i have 'OMGUSed my way onto a vote list', as i've only voted for 2 people since joining, and as i'm pretty sure that 1 of them wasnt even voting for me. I might be wrong, but then, just because someone is voting for me, does that make them confirmed town?
Oh and me ignoring the case on Jeep is BS, as i have shown recognition of it multiple times. If i didnt KNOW he was protown, he would probably have been fairly high on my suspect list. As i do KNOW he was protown, i am naturally very wary of the arguments that are being manufactured against him.

No, you're looking at post numbers, but ignoring the amount of time in between posts.

Other than that, almost everyone who was on your condorcent list was on the jeep wagon or expressed suspicion against him.

"manufactured?"

8. Rofl. You've never used information from ongoing games before? I mean, what the hell would you do in my position? Quote from an ongoing game, thus ruining it for everyone, and probably getting myself banned?
Yeah, that would suit you just great wouldnt it.

No, I was pretty sure that you didn't have any proof of it.

actually, i sometimes get visions like that. Sometimes they are right, but sometimes they arent. In my experience its probably better to use logic first, and perhaps use the dream to back up that logic. I do find it a little coincidental that you NOW want to switch to LML, just as IH has done the same thing.

I was already on Lee.

But you are on the top of my condorcent list now, which should make you the condorcet leader.

I'd like to note that although IH says he wants BM to die in 438, he puts BM behind Lee on his Condorcet list, which actually means he's keeping BM alive that way.

Please correct me if the above is lwrong.

[IH]

Have you actually read my posts? Did you not read the lengthy explanations about how posting Concordet votes helps the town? Did you see my explanations on how not-posting them (and/or discouraging others to post them by calling them pointless or scummy) hurts the town?

Minor FoS: IH for simply not paying any attention to what's going on.

Yes I read, and I disagree. Especially in the beginning of the game, which this is mostly about. Not using a condorcent list is not scummy for sake of keeping things simple in the beginning.

I have only used it twice myself. This accomplishes the same thing as someone listing their scum list. Do you expect everyone to do that in every game automatically and everytime?

IH putting Lee on his vote while in effect only moving BM up since his vote was already on Lee so he's effectively while putting Lee in his "vote part" actually exonerating Lee by putting BM ahead of him in Condorcet Rankings since he is moving up BM. Looks Hella scummy.(Someone correct me if I'm misinterpreting how these condorcet rankings work)

Yes, since I pointed it out.

The latter part of your sentence isn't really true. LML is voting MoS because he said it looked contrived. That has little to do with how long it takes. It seems strange to vote someone purely for disagreeing with their argumentation, especially since he hasn't really pushed the Zindy thing all that much.

I believe his main contention was that he went to great efforts to make it look random, just so it would look random. When it really is a simple process this argument loses alot of gusto. The only way it would have taken him a great deal of effort is if he was actually trying to contrive it.

5. DP had reasons for BWing Jeep, but from what i can gather from my own comments, those reasons were either copied, or very very 'suspect'.

How?

Hey-didnt you just accuse me of trying to cast bogus suspicion onto people without committing to a vote? strange how comments like that come back and bite you in the butt, eh?
Metagame evidence is often only valid for the individual who has that experience. I cannot refer to ongoing games, as even if nobody here is playing in those games, information here will probably leak, and it will ruin those games for everyone. If you don't believe me, why dont you go and find some COMPLETED games of Oman's in order to refute my claims. I mean, you love metagaming proof right?

Since you're the one who brought it up, you should already have a completed game where it is valid.

You think me naming post numbers in order to make it clearer for the rest of you, is a scumtell? ROFLMAO! I'm not quite sure how i have 'OMGUSed my way onto a vote list', as i've only voted for 2 people since joining, and as i'm pretty sure that 1 of them wasnt even voting for me. I might be wrong, but then, just because someone is voting for me, does that make them confirmed town?
Oh and me ignoring the case on Jeep is BS, as i have shown recognition of it multiple times. If i didnt KNOW he was protown, he would probably have been fairly high on my suspect list. As i do KNOW he was protown, i am naturally very wary of the arguments that are being manufactured against him.

No, you're looking at post numbers, but ignoring the amount of time in between posts.

Other than that, almost everyone who was on your condorcent list was on the jeep wagon or expressed suspicion against him.

"manufactured?"

8. Rofl. You've never used information from ongoing games before? I mean, what the hell would you do in my position? Quote from an ongoing game, thus ruining it for everyone, and probably getting myself banned?
Yeah, that would suit you just great wouldnt it.

No, I was pretty sure that you didn't have any proof of it.

actually, i sometimes get visions like that. Sometimes they are right, but sometimes they arent. In my experience its probably better to use logic first, and perhaps use the dream to back up that logic. I do find it a little coincidental that you NOW want to switch to LML, just as IH has done the same thing.

I was already on Lee.

But you are on the top of my condorcent list now, which should make you the condorcet leader.

I'd like to note that although IH says he wants BM to die in 438, he puts BM behind Lee on his Condorcet list, which actually means he's keeping BM alive that way.

Please correct me if the above is lwrong.

[IH]

I will attempt to have a post before deadline. = \

[IH]

bleh didn't notice this opened

will post later.

[IH]

I already quoted the guy. I have evidence (the quote that states what he actually said), you have speculation (the idea he might've slipped up).

But I never said he slipped up. I just think it's misleading.

I don't like the oocam's razor argument, and agree with CES there.

Also, Gaspar, dude, as I repeated previously, there's nothing special in non-deadline situations about making lists of suspects in this game, so if you want to advocate making lists all the time in this game, you should advocate it in all games.

QFT

"Automatically and everytime"? No. Although I've noted your exaggeration/use of extremes.

Well that seemed to have been your stance at the time. That MGM was suspicious because he hadn't done it YET.

I have found great success in FORCING other players into interactions with each other. Interactions/Opinions from a protown player will be genuine and will have their own indicators. Those coming from a scumbag will be forced and/or contrived and will also have their own indicators. Reading those indicators is a pretty damned good way of finding scums.

While I do not request full suspicion lists from all players in every game "automatically and everytime," I would say that I *DO* generally ask more questions of more players. That is something that not enough players do in Mafia, I think.

And I do the same, but do you do so in the beginning of the game?

Not for the first time in this game, I am being misquoted or misinterpreted. I never stated or hinted that protown players should find not-using-Concordet preferable to using-Concordet. I never stated that using it would be scummy. I argued against the opposite stance: that not-using-Concordet is a scum tell (see jeep's posts: his opinion is that the only reason not to use it is if you are scum). I am perfectly happy with someone using this method straight from post 1 but I don't think there is any meaning behind a Condorcet list unless you have a reasonable opinion on a number of players, hence my preference to wait until the mid of day one.

.....quotes please, I remember you arguing that pushing for not using it as a scumtell was scummy

Gaspar is proving to be a worthy replacement for PWS. I feel comfortable with GASPAR because of the amount of text being posted in a short time makes me feel that they are comfortable in the role and therefore less likely to be scum.

I would disagree with this statement, simply because a component of Gaspar is GLork.

And Glork=Text

right, time for a claim. I am Pierre Picaud. My role is basically that of a Cop, except that instead of a guilty/innocent investigation, i get a piece of information corresponding to the character of my target. As such, i become confirmable after night 1. My role itself doesnt actually catch scum, but it can be used to trap liars (assuming the scum characters of this theme are distinguishable from the town characters). But the fact that post-Night 1, i become a confirmed innocent, means its worth keeping me around. lol

I'm actually surprised BM died last night, as he wasn't really confirmable.... a rolecop is much more likely to be scum than town.

I also feel obliged to point out at this point that Primate and I talked over AIM a bit last night, and he disagrees with most of what I've said. We're currently trying to figure out some system of balancing our own suspicions (aside from discussing with each other to try to come to a consensus on what to do). So far, the two things we've come up with were a ranking system (where we each do our own ranked suspicion lists and then weigh/average them against each other to come up with a single Concordet list) or to just focus on the points where we do agree.

XDXDXD

I understand how condorcents work now I think.... the vote leader as counted as the condorcent leader, right? And then if the vote leaders are tied it goes to the next condorcents?

See I thought at deadline the current votes were disregarded, and it just went straight to condorcent lists.

Was his life the basis for the story or the Count of Monte Christo himself? I'm kind of weary he's an inspiration rather than an actual character from the book.

The second person (other being Skruffs) who has concern about roles being in the book or not.

His life was the basis/inspiration behind the novel. However, I'm not sure what makes you think that all roles must be characters in the book. If you are protown, you're bleeding information that you probably don't want to reveal. Remember that this game is "Dantes in Fresno" and that it is "based (very) loosely" on the novel.

1.If you think he's protown, why did you reveal this information? I'm unsure many would have connected MGM having a role from the book

2.

remember this when/if MGM claims

SOMEONE PLEASE

I'm unsure how I feel about the sudden Lee turn, as I wanted Cubsfan dead.

but I wanted LML dead too

= \

I didn't count it explicitly as two families because it says that the trio killers were only mafia like. I thought it was two families, but the first post suggests otherwise - a band of three SKs or something. Do your research!
Why would I consider this game an exception? IT is themed around a book, but other than that, I am not sure what you are saying is exceptional about it. Of course, ANY game run by Mr. Gray will be exceptional in it's lay out. Is there something exceptional about this game in your opinion, IH, that you would say something like that?

Skruffs, they are a group that win if they become the majority with a collective kill.

THAT is a mafia family.

It's not really an exception. I don't think I said it was an exception, did I? If so I'll have to look at my post and see what I'm talking about. >.<;

updating my voting:

vote IH/oman, mgm, cubs, [adele, foolinc], [everyone not mentioned], no lynch, battle mage, logicticus

Could you please explain your reason for this voting Logictus?

Side note to future readers: VitaminR and Cubs playing similarly 'behind' other, more obvious players.

Right, because I've used LML's reasoning to back up every accusation I've made. Oh wait, I haven't done that once. Even you I went after for my own reasons.

Playing Similarily and backing each other up are TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.

I also have a meta-read on IH as scum as well. Truth be told.

I'd like to see this, as the last game I played with you in you were scum and I was town.
Vague scumtells are horrible.
I also wonder if characters from the book are scum.... which would fit Skruffs and MGM's questions if they are scum.

Unvote
Vote: Cubsfan, Xyzzy, MGM, Zindaras, Skruffs, Adele, Thesp, [foolinc, pooky, tally, Tamuz, IH, Logictius, Dani Banani ], [DP, Gaspar, VitR], CES, BattleMage / Jeep

Notice the list as well, he has a supposed scum meta on me but I am below Zindy, Adele, AND Thesp. I am actually 8th on the list, tied up with 6 other players.

Damn lazy player, Primate. READ MY ROLECLAIM.

I don't like how he's relying on his claim either.

I propose Gaspar post an underlined P or G in the beginning of each one of their posts.

I really dislike Lee's posts on page 22

Madre de dios translates into Mother of God.
Woo!

Assuming this is true, if we are inactive during the day portion of the game, we are handing a clear advantage to the scums.

I <3 Glork

Mgm: Have you read the links in the first post? Have you read them carefully? Why on earth did you ask "what are Dantes"?

I didn't read those... I'll read them after this post.

I never liked this. I feel that her vote on me was a policy vote and had nothing to do with any of my posts. She has left her vote on me since then.

Then why was she on the top of your condorcent list?
Also, according to the votecount, Adele was on DP, not you.

Let it be known that IH, who I believe is scummy, refused to unvote me with his post.

Let it be known that I am way down on your condorcent list, and you who are relying on a claim to back up on your authority and an unclaimed meta, claim to be suspicious of me.
Also I had not been reading when I posted that so I was unaware of yours AND BM's claim.

hee the heart of the cards.

Well since I can't challenge again till the next day I guess I'm fucked. The role PM says I'd be sure to kill them so I suppose it doesn't always work or something? Just saying this for the town's benefit tomorrow. LML is probably scum.

This should be noted. Something about LML is weird.

ah ok. does that mean that LML is neutral, seeing as the supposed scum result, and the town result didnt happen?

This is interesting

Though in regards to his argument with Zindy.....

BM continues to PHAIL

Buh? Tamuz, I think you overstepped yourself there... I do not see myself as being able to be able to 'yank us along on my RC', in as much as I haven't roleclaimed yet.. Of course, if mafia has a roleblocker, and they blocked me, they would of course immediately want to discredit me for it, wouldn't they? Only they'd want to wait until a more oppurtune time, after more had been revealed. You jumped the gun.

vote : tamuz

You essentially softclaimed.

A poisoner seems to have killed Xyzzy.

MGM actions yesterday do not raise my opinion of him. I will note that this doesn't have anything to do with his condorcent thing.

I continue to agree with CES.

I expect LML to answer my questions.

= \ I am extremely unsure in this game, yet again. I dislike LML pointing towards flavor for a vig role. A LOT. Especially since both protown roles so far have been real people not in the book. I also wonder why LML would do such a thing. To essentially give someone a fake claim.

I expect LML to answer my question about the meta he has on me. If he says it's in an ongoing game I'm going to be angry.

Pending that... even WITH the evidence for him as town and the claim from him, I want to do this which is mostly based off of hunches and things from late yesterday which I hit upon in this post.

vote:LML

MGM, VitR, Logictus, Talitha

[IH]

a) You haven't been reading. Did you even notice the duel that basically (for all intents and purposes) cleared me? No one has counterclaimed my role. My role makes sense. Cubs tried to duel me, and he was PROMISED by the mod if I were scum, I'd be dead. He said that himself. He's dead now, confirmed as innocent.

yes I have read that.

b) You havent been posting in this game, even when you're online. I know this is completely WIFOM, but You were online AND in Theme Park while I made my post. i can't be sure that you saw it, but a good mafia player ignores nothing.

What time did you see me online? Because there have been plenty of times when I'm looking in other games I'm dead at. I haven't had too much time lately to make long posts and in depth read, but I HAVE had time to make replies to shorter things.

It actually took me two hours to make my preceeding post from reading the last 8 pages I missed.

Stop voting for the most confirmed innocent this town HAS right now

This is another thing. I dislike you relying on your claim, and Cubs word, who could have possibly misread his role since he DID claim count of monte cristo. I find it scummy.

I find a LOT of things about your play yesterday scummy.

I still wonder why you didn't mention your meta yesterday, but only said you had one? Not only that you repeatedly said I was scummy, only presenting this reason I believe, and had me way down on your condorcent list?

and... I am merely speculating the TYPES of kills we have. So we can chart them later. You are being completely remiss if you don't look at the players who die and draw conclusions from there, wether it a framing or not. The more info the town has, the better.

Looking at nightkills and coming up with potential roleclaims are two different things.

[IH]

I was not coming up with potential RCs, I, instead, was trying to figure out if we had a vig or an SK doing those kills. As of now, I posted both to see what the town thought.

To push really hard for a mislynch D1, IMHO, is a pro-town manuveur. I find that it brings undue attention, something that scum is trying to avoid.

But you did! You gave way to much flavor attention, and just pretty much gave someone a roleclaim that had more flavor than your actual claim had.

Also, I would disagree with this point, and say it is more of a null tell. Pushing for a lynch that turned out to be a mislynch day 1 would depend upon the player I think. It's not something generic.

[IH]

Yes, definitely. Beginning of the game is the best time to get information by forcing players' hands. In my experience, most scumbaggos aren't terribly comfortable at the onset of the game... I've found that many of them take about half a day to settle into their roles, so hitting hard at the very BEGINNING of the game can be crucial.

next time we're on the equivalent of page 4 of a game I'll be sure to ask for a complete read on every player of the game.

Obviously I don't think he's protown -- he's second on my Condorcet list right now, and definitely one of my top suspects. However, A) Protown players in general shouldn't display their ignorance because it often reveals information about who they are (not); and B) On the chance that Mgm is actually protown, it would serve as a warning to him to quiet down and do his homework.

Ah misunderstood as such.

Just in case this was lost in the depths of my post, I would like to see people's opinions on this.

This is another thing. I dislike you relying on your claim, and Cubs word, who could have possibly misread his role since he DID claim count of monte cristo. I find it scummy.

I also wonder what happens if Cubs did understand his role, but LML was neither town nor scum?

[IH]

IH:
That was a horribly batched defense of Tamuz there. Soft claiming is not the same as ROLE CLAIMING, which Tamuz accused me of being scum and doing. Where were you trying to go with that? He later said that I *did* claim, because I claimed to have a night action - but that doesn't match at all with his first post. Why would you validate his statement?

Claiming to have a night action=a softclaim=a scummy claim

Also you're trio killers argument is pure semantics. You know that it is TECHNICALLY a mafiate family = P. A group of players who win if they are the majority and have one kill.

Are there any non-anti-town roles that are worth lynching?

I personally advocate Survivor lynches myself, after having lost many a game on IRC from survivor speedlynches.

[IH]

I don't associate Mgm with good play. (I'm sorry to say that, Mgm.)

Already forgot about Mafia 60, did you?

I contest mafia 60 was an accident, and MGM's play was but a fluke, where he looked at the wrong name.

I will eventually make my MGM burn even better when I can prove MGM sucks <.<;;;;

I still have yet to get my head properly around all these latest developments, but right now I'm interested in Dani. I can't really relate to Dani's confidence that the two people mentioned are town. The opinion as expressed seems a little strong to me, considering how hard i am finding it to get a read on people in this game.

Also, MoS early on seemed more defensive about being voted for than I would have expected if he were town.

So, until I have time to reassess all other players,

vote: Dani Banani

This makes me have a better opinion of Talitha in this game.

Okay, IH... What is my roleclaim, then? How have I jerked you along on it? If I was scum, all I've done is kept myself from being able to claim vanilla later on. If I am town, I've alerted the rest of the town of an existance of a roleblocker. The immediate disbelief and lack of curiousity you and Tamuz show towards what I've said tells me a lot more about your state of mind regarding the game than some others.

You have alluded to a night action, which alludes to a power role, which alludes to the town leaving you alone.
Or have you forgotten about Ubertimmy and Zufaul in mini 414 so quickly?

Tags removed. Please use bold tags only for voting and unvoting. - Mod

[IH]

ok, just letting everyone know... Dani Banani is an alt for LyingBrian... well not as much an alt as a new account... i'll be using this account to play games & LB to mod until i hit my 3 months, then i'll use this account exclusively...

Seriously.......

I like Zindy's 689

Logictus, it's spelled DUEL not DUAL.

Sweet. Daykill! *hi-fives dayvig*

Vote: Skruffs

I hate so much about this post.

What do you hate about it? That CES, like in every other game, appreciates a daykill?

I can see a real dayvig taking out xyzzy though, as a result of a desire to avoid the deadline rush that plagued Day 1. If you kill him early, then the town has all the time in the world to find a new lynch candidate.

You sound about 100% certain that you knew xyzzy was townie. This is an extremely scummy post.

I'm unsure how you gathered that? You first of all seem to be assuming that CES made the kill. Even if it would have killed scum, it's not like the day would have seemed to have ended either way.
PHAIL.

fos:Logictus

Dont know why IH is attacking LML. I feel LML is the most likely to be town at this point and there is no reason to be going after him with such vigor.

If people would only read......

There has been many things I dislike about LML's play. I am unsure if this is how he always plays or not, but it just feels scummy to me.

Many people are just off of him because of his claim and cubs action. I personally don't trust his claim at all, because of how heavily he seemed to be leaning on it to confirm him. I also don't like how he leans even more on the Cubs failed daykill. The biggest reason why I also don't believe Cubs duel doesn't clear him is Cubs claim, and the gigantic possibility that he misread his PM.

The guy claimed count of Monte Cristo when he was not.
He was town.
Why would he claim Count of Monte Cristo if he didn't read SOMETHING wrong?

This doesn't condemn LML in it's own right, BUT it also doesn't clear him. In other words, since it does not clear him, I am still suspicious of him.

LML.... please help me to get a better grasp of your claim. What are you searching for as a searching townie? Did you also claim your rolename? I can't remember.

I don't like how Logictus deciphered the posts in around 8 minutes.

Skruffs constantly pokes happy vibes and a George Bush like support to Thesp (allowing that Thesp is Dick Cheney). And then once Skruffs gets under fire Thesp is there, the gallant knight in shining armour to help bail his child out.

I haven't actually seen Thesp coming to Skruffs rescue.....

[IH]

He is saying that a real dayvig (which i find to be odd terminology, how does he know it wasnt a real dayvig? why does it need to be qualified?) would want to take out xyzzy out early to avoid the deadline rush.

Aside from the terminology, i find this logic lacking. If anything, taking out xyzzy is more likely to lead to a deadline rush. He was second in the voting after cubs and it wouldnt have taken much to get him lynched before the deadline. In the couple posts before his death, people were already lining up to lynch him. Now that he is dead, we are starting without a lead candidate which will prolong the day.

1.You completely ignore the discussion at the time, that it could have been an SK, daykilling SK, or Poisoner/delayed kill.

2.This doesn't lead to him knowing Xyzzy would come up townie

3.I believe he was basing it off yesterday.

I don't like how Logictus deciphered the posts in around 8 minutes.

MGM posted he had a breadcrumb.

8 minutes later you deciphered it and posted it here.

You did indeed LML I had forgotten.

Is the person you're searching for guaranteed to of alignment for future reference, or not?

[IH]

RE:Logictus figuring out the claim.

I don't like how Logictus figured out MGM's claim 8 minutes after he posted.

First of all, it seems as if he's expecting it.

Second of all, he deduces the name, and has time to search wikipedia with the exact rolename after using the filter, and correctly deduces that MGM's name is Eugenie.

Now, perhaps I'm a little slower than that, but to read MGM's post (almost exclusively), ignore all other posts, look at his posts in the filter, and find the correct name on wikipedia, with their posts 8 minutes apart is just not innocent to me.

[IH]

I didn't know Dantes was in the game when I started, but I am pretty sure he's in there now. As for trust, no matter how much I'd like to see it happen, I don't think the town as a whole is trusting me: officially or not.

I may be contesting this and I may not.

Nobody answer for him.

Why do you think Dantes is in the game or not?

I feel unsure about Logictus and MGM's claim, but I think I still support it.

NOTICE-Adele is right, they are circumstantial
Some factors that are based off of it for me.
1.Connection speed
2.Logictus knowing which letters to omit(which ties in two three)
3.Assuming he searched for what I would have (eugene) Which comes up with this list http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene
4.Me having switched to google instead of Wikipedia.

[IH]

ALSO, I will be doing a significantly more indepth post sometime in the next few days, it may wait until the weekend or not.

[IH]

I actually would consider a super kill being from one player, and would classify the mentioned action as "simultaneous".

I'm also unsure if it has been discussed or not, but has anyone thought to try and refute my points about Cubs action? Or even Read it? Any other comments would be appreciative?

Does anyone think anything from the flavor can be gathered from it? The way the duelist action happened where both players received a gun may have actually been the reverse, as only a killer would have known how to use a gun, and Cubs wasn't a killer, so he therefore missed.....

I'm unsure.

So for the moment, while I review and possibly make a better post that has a little more content and isn't so theoretical I will unvote and consider doing a reread.

Unvote

[IH]

curious why my name is up there? o.o;

[IH]

There is always the possibility that

A.There isn't a doc
B.They targetted LML.

Speaking of LML....

LML who did you target last night? If you are looking for a specific person, and you have not found them, the least we can do is stop someone else claiming the said rolename.

[IH]

If anyone has an explanation for why Cubsfan lied (which could've resulted in a really bad counterclaim), I'm all ears. Also, I'm pretty sure that I'm not going to lynch LML today.

Curious.

MGM isn't lynching LML today, presumably because of Cubsfans action, yet he also brings up about Cubsfan lying.

It does bring something interesting to mind though. There was no cubsfan counterclaim! I would personally be wary of a count of monte cristo claim after this.

Vote: Logicticus, xyzzy, Skruffs, VitaminR, [Tamuz, IH, Adele, Thesp, Talitha, PookyTheMagicalBear, Dani Banani, foolinc], Gaspar, No lynch, [Zindaras, Cogito Ergo Sum, Dragon Phoenix], LoudmouthLee, Mgm.

Would you mind explaining this list at the beginning of the day MGM?

Somebody blocked me. That pisses me off.

I'm personally unsure why you would bring this up at the beginning of day 2.

Just for the sake of defending myself before this even comes up:

I don't think Cubs's PM says what happens if they aren't scum. His operative word here was guess. I didn't die, so that's a positive.

I continue to dislike this as well. One of the reasons I continue to be suspicious of LML. He brings it up before anyone even mentions it, effectively cutting off all inquiries of him.

Why wouldn't that power be attributed to scum? Scum who have one or two daykills at their disposal - which a duel basically is - are rare, but it's not unheard of. The only thing that duel proved is that he had the power to initiate one, not that the results would be as he said they would be (kill a scum, guess: not kill an innocent).

Also, if he was so obviously town, there were plenty of people who could've unvoted after the claim. If someone claims the main character you either believe them or you don't.

Whats funny is that MGM was more likely to believe LML before Cubs, and LML's claim was much less convincing than LML. Not only that, MGM didn't even reply to the claim until after the duel had happened. So the claim and power, which was proven, was a package deal.

MGM wasn't concerned at all with what that meant though, he wasted time and posts by asking Cubs why he targetted LML.

I wouldn't fault MGM if there had actually been results from the duel, but there was none, and neither player died, which indicated that the player was probably town, since if it was scum, it would have mostlikely been an SK, and that would have been it's only kill more than likely.

Xyzzy's role-Barbara Morgan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_Morgan

Wikipedia says that she was an astronaut from Fresno. Just born in fresno. Nothing from the book at all about her I believe.

I continue to like my theory about characters from the book being scum.

VitR's post 640 is full of loss.

I continue to generally dislike MGM's play....

LML, I still see no reason why you felt the need to completely outline a claim, since all confirmed innocents seem to have just been from Fresno, and not necessarily in the book.

If I get time I will try to do a full recap of day 1. This was just a little bit of more indepth towards the beginning of day 2 up until my first content filled post.

For the moment I feel comfortable with this vote I believe. It will probably change after I go over day 1 again, and start to get a more comfortable feel. LML is staying off until I decide the validity of my own arguments against him.

Vote:MGM

VitR, Logictus

[IH]

Foolinc, the point is that you slipped up on the specifics of your secret word/password, so you must therefore not have one, in case you didn't understand what DP was implying.

Closer to a slip than a scumtell.

Your reaction to it was notable though

FoS

[IH]

I'm personally not to keen on the secret word as I would guess that every role has one, but I'm kind of unsure.

I was fosing your reaction mostly.

[IH]

EBWOP-Sorry Glorkmate if I'm giving things away you don't think should, but there are some things I just think are irrelevant to whether scum know them or not.

[IH]

I'll try to respond in more substance, but I like how Skruffs twisted my Theory into "I'm sure"

[IH]

NOTE:My theory is useless until we have confirmed dead scum, btw, so I'm unsure why there's that big of a deal made out of it.

It's not like I asked for a "Book/not book claim"

[IH]

mmk, time to stop dicking around.

I've been trying to answer this question for some time, but the best answer I can give is a less than sound idea, IMO. Skruffs would do so because he, if he was scum, would pretend to be town. In an attempt to gain the trust of the town he shared some information. However, like I have said, a soft claim is scummy in my eyes. This means that scum would be unlikely to make this move unless Skruffs is the poisoner. In this case, since only BM died that night he assumed someone blocked him and posted. The reason he would post would be because the best way to survive as an SK is to pretend to be a vig, which would not only kill someone they voted for, but also probably share that they were roleblocked.

However, this idea is way too complitcated for my liking. The simplest answer is that my logic on the situation was flawed and that Skurffs is really a townie that made a less than omptimal play. I think the timing with his roleblocked claim and Xyzzy's death might have played a part in my views on Skruffs and I "saw" something that wasn't there.

Even though I did indeed push the soft claim as being scummy, I think that Gaspar and the above is the most logical....

It would have to be a horrible gambit for Skruffs scum to push through.

I also have a better opinion of foolinc from this post I believe. I would also like the town to note this and express their opinions on the following when he was pushing Skruffs softclaim to be scummy before this post.

If someone is a poisoner, they wouldn't expect their target to be dead in the morning... I would think.

Depends on the mod. Some have them die in the night. Some have them die later.

I didn't ask a question, so I'm not asking anyone to answer me. Surely we can discuss how BM managed to die without outing the doctor.

Eh.... useless speculation I think. There are lots of possibilities. I mentioned other possibilities earlier, because I didn't think it would give scum any advantage, but I believe I might have been flawed in thinking so.

Nothing is stopping the doctor from mixing with the crowd and posing alternate possibilities himself. Unless their posts outright say what they did, I don't think they tell much about the poster's role.

Your mileage may vary.

Interesting how a lot of those comments came after I said I wasn't interested in more discussion on the topic.

FoS:MGM

Well, I'm not a fan of foolinc's latest posts, so I can't say I'd protest a foolinc-lynch.

I'm not really seeing the case on Adele though. I haven't seen anything out of the ordinary from her.

Skruffs, if you want to know why I'm voting for you, you can look back to yesterday. It's the same reason for your place on my list. Everyone above you died.

Why are you not a fan of foolinc's posts?

Notice CES's list also after he claims he doesn't like them.

Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 11:12 am Post subject: 830

My suspicion of you was never related to Cubs, nor did I ever suggest it was.

You are being incredible OMGUSy, Skruffs.

Also, time to condorcet!

Vote: Skruffs, [Mgm], [everyone else, excluding me], [Dragon Phoenix, logicticus]

*pats Thesp's head condescendingly*

It's okay to be imperfect, Thesp. Even I was imperfect once.

Quick Pod! Change the password!

When I get around to posting a new condorcet list I am going to move Dani back up into 1st or 2nd as (from memory) I put Adele above Dani, but I've never played with Adele before and a

lot of my suspicion on her has come from other people's opinions.

Note underlining.

FoS:Talitha

Is nightkill discussion inherently not useful?

I would assume it's inherently wifom, like Zindy said.

In other news, IH still needs to die.

So, I like how you add in still. When had you expressed abject suspicion about me before?

If that's true, why test the waters? Keeping his mouth shut would be by far the safer option if he didn't know it was safe to talk about it. What if scum was the only one with secret words? Asking about it would make it suicide.

You and your WIFOM.

I'm liking VitR's posts more than the posts I reviewed earlier in the day.

Why is MBL still alive? He should be lynched within the first 48 hours he's in a game.

This looks bad to me.... the fact that you would come to the conclusion that Thesp is a lyncher with you as a target makes me think this is more OMGUS and less "you're scum reaching for an attack on another player."

Is there any reason you believe Thesp to be a lyncher specifically? Do you think his D1 play would indicate that such is the case?

In other news, I find the "how useful is nightkill analysis" debate to be surprisingly boring. (In recent past, I'd side with Zindaras that it's too unreliable to use properly, but I've shifted to a more "It really depends on the specific game situation, and neither "it's useful" or "it's useless" generalization is particularly accurate.) Point being, I'd rather be looking for scum than debating game theory.

I agreeeeeeeee

With the above.

IH, I say this only because I think you're town and that you're playing really carelessly right now. STOP GIVING INFORMATION TO THE SCUMS. Your post 868 gave out information on two different accounts (that none of the non-counterclaimers are probably the real Count/Dantes), and that your role is a person from Fresno and not a character from the book.

So. You don't think it's worth future reference that a real count didn't counterclaim? That it's too much information?

I mean it's possible scum could

Mgm's play has been HIGHLY scummy this past day. I'm really confused why he'd give up his breadcrumb to his role, but not his password. It's like getting your meal supersized and getting a diet pop because you're watching your weight. The two moves don't match up. I'm also not a fan of the whole Doctor discussion. If we have a doctor, we want to protect him/her as much as possible and this type of discussion won't help do that.

I also agree.....

I'm still unsure
1.Why MGM claimed
2.Why MGM breadcrumbed

personally

more Why he claimed.

I wanted to make sure sharing my secret word was a good idea before doing so. I've had conflicting responses, so I'm still not sure. If it helps. I happen to have used my word.

So... your idea is that your secret word is more important than your word though?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not pushing for you to out your secret word, but you'd think if you took this mentality you wouldn't have claimed either.

At the start of the game I had foolinc down as a likely townie, just because his 'roles that might be in the game' and speculating on which roles the mafia might have, and seeming pretty genuine, didnt strike me as something a mafioso would likely do. Then I moved him to 'unsure', as the way he popped into the thread with helpful comments (eg. Reminding me to put my vote at the bottom of a post, etc.) made me feel like he might be scum keen to appear extra helpful.

I hate this reasoning. Bumping Talitha up.

Which pushed my suspicion of foolinc even further, as I would expect someone who is genuinely trying to find scum would reassess things after a lynch and a nightkill and all that added information.

I believe CES and MGM both did this though.

I don't see what's so weird about it. If you can't convince people you're innocent by talking and reasoning, you claim. As logicticus said, my secret word doesn't help my claim at all, so I'd rather make an informed decision about revealing it than just throw it out there.

Dani, what do you say?

How close were you to lynch?

Foolinc's reaction makes me want to put him on the very bottom of my list.

IH just baited town by saying "I'm pretty sure anyone from the book is scum" - Absolutely FIshing!!! Why would he say that?? Because he seems to know he's from OUTSide the book. Has anyone ELSE claimed to be from outside the book? CUbs? LML? BM did, but he also claimed to be from Paris in 1807.

Err no, I said I had a theory. Which is not the same as "I'M PRETTY SURE EVERYONE FROM THE BOOK IS SCUM, LAWL!" I've even withdrawn my vote and everything from LML because my suspicions against him were way to unsubstantial. It's all theoretical. Same with Logictus.

Question about IH's theory that "People from the book are scum"...
Everyone who has claimed, has claimed roles from inside the book or about the book. Presumable, IH has no connection to the book. He is therefore NOT Dantesian in nature. THIS DESERVES TO BE CONSIDERED.

Take a moment and think about why Cubs would claim to be the count of monte cristo, if he wasn't.

So do you consider me protown or scummy by this action. Instead of letting the town consider it and make your mind up for you?

There will be more. And they will not be scummy.

Major FoS:Skruffs

I dunno, pooky, seems kind of noncommittal, something you seem to be fussy about yourself towards other players.
Just sayin.

Omgus. Woo!

So if you think IH is scummy - why are you picking on the person who noticess it while ignoring him?
This is the bulk of my questioning towards you.
Wether you have a readon me or not, would you say that I try to stimulate discussion and that I try to pull out things that I see as potentially in scummy in people? Do you think that is a scummy thing to do - looking at players and trying to base a decision on them?

He's saying you're being hypocritical of me.

You just felt like padding your post count?

I call foul on Pooky. I might even lynch him for it. The 25 word minimum was finished before he even began to discuss the football game. His charms will not get him out of this one. There's something legitimately wrong with his claim of padding.

If the football comment was the only bit in the entire post, I would be perplexed, but I wouldn't think it was overly bogus.

I think he's lying, and I'm going to update my condorcet to show.

Unvote
Vote: Foolinc, Adele/MBL, MGM, IH, Pooky, Tally, CES, [everyone unlisted], [Gaspar, Zindy], NL, LML

1.Quit trying to figure out a players breadcrumb if you think it's a breadcrumb.

2.Why would you think a breadcrumb is scummy if you do think it's a breadcrumb?

3.I believe Pooky and his padding, since he did make a full post earlier in the day that was just dealing with football as a filler. Glork responded to it.

I've decided the best way to do this is to keep a seperate document open and then move players up and down as I find them scummy.

so based on my document open...

Vote:MGM

, Skruffs, Talitha, CES, Thesp, VitR, Foolinc, [Everyone Else], IH, Nolynch

[IH]

IH - why did you answer Pooky's question for him? He deliberately avoided talking about the game, instead talking about the 25 word thing and nothing else, in his last post.

I don't think Pooky is too high a priority on my list atm, as I mostly think he's town.
Also, if you see something scummy, you're not going to point it out?
Finally, he was talking about the 25 word thing because it was a question asked of him I believe, that was a breadcrumby fishy question.

Pooky did similar things day one, regarding the fossing of me and not of you. I do not understand how he consider me bringing up something you said fishy, when the point I brought up was that you were being fishy.

The entire point is you're accusing someone (me) of fishing, while you're doing the SAME EXACT THING if not worse. You don't think thats scummier than the original fishing?

My theory is based almost entirely about what is known about players roles, and what they have claimed. This is why IH, and Pooky, to a smaller extent, and anyone else who claims to be Fresnian is more likely to be suspicious to me.

Which is entirely false since you only are working off of two roles. BM's role wasn't an incarnation of the count anyways. What about Xyzzy? His role was a freaking astronaut and just a fresnian. Your theory is already proven false.

Skruffs might've made an unfortunate word choice in that last quote, but nothing word a FOS. He was clearly trying to get across that there will be more claims of book characters and that not all of them will be scum. Your ridiculous theory is going to get you bumped up on my list. You're just trying to get claimed innocents lynched.

Sorry the full quote didn't come across MGM

Lastly :
Claiming to be the count is scum?
Nobody counter claimed Cubs' count claim?
The game is about a man who was scizophrentic. Multiple personality disorder. Alraedy there have been two players who have been 'forms' of the count.

There will be more. And they will not be scummy.

Which actually has nothing to do with my theory. I just felt this was scummy, as Skruffs was essentially clearing any count 'forms', which he cannot do without knowing the setup.

"Now that IH has claimed to not be from the book AND fossed any claims to the main character, that the game is titled after, i am pretty sure he's'a good lynch.

Ok, would you please stop saying I have FoSed any claims of the main character? I said I would be wary because there was no counterclaims of the count of monte cristo.

So, if a player claimed count of monte cristo, and turned out to not be him, why would you believe that claim from a later player Skruffs? Why would they not have counterclaimed?

I was trying to not bring this back up, but you insist on using it as a point of suspicion against me.

[IH]

My theory is based almost entirely about what is known about players roles, and what they have claimed. This is why IH, and Pooky, to a smaller extent, and anyone else who claims to be Fresnian is more likely to be suspicious to me.

This is what I have gathered of Skruffs theory.

let me guess if you can draw the same conclusion I have to his theory.

Something about the way IH (see post 924) is reacting to every single post and bumping people up and down his list as he reads singular posts seems very mechanical to me... I can understand players who play by their gut, and I can understand players who insist on trying to apply logic, but I tend to believe that IH is trying to give the appearance of hunting scum, while not actually hunting scum.

Ah but he's already second on my list, so that's good.

You're joking, correct? Me trying to make sure everything is covered is scummy?

Also Tally, some things you seemed to have missed and just not responded to, which i thought you might want to do.

At the start of the game I had foolinc down as a likely townie, just because his 'roles that might be in the game' and speculating on which roles the mafia might have, and seeming pretty genuine, didnt strike me as something a mafioso would likely do. Then I moved him to 'unsure', as the way he popped into the thread with helpful comments (eg. Reminding me to put my vote at the bottom of a post, etc.) made me feel like he might be scum keen to appear extra helpful.

I hate this reasoning. Bumping Talitha up.

Which pushed my suspicion of foolinc even further, as I would expect someone who is genuinely trying to find scum would reassess things after a lynch and a nightkill and all that added information.

I believe CES and MGM both did this though.

MBL, since you just reread Day 1, and I don't seem to have heard anyone else really talk about this....

What do you think of LML leaning on his claim and Cubs action?
What do you make of Cubs claim and his actions results?
Do you think LML is cleared?

[IH]

Oh shiz I just noticed the top of that votecount. 40-30 hours to deadline.

[IH]

Oh, and by the way betch, (ih)- i didn't incorporate xyzzy's role claim into my theory because he never claimed. Here's'a blast from the past: 'way to misrepresent me!'
More after i get home tonight.

Oh, so it's just people who claim it. Not actual roles.
Wait... What? How is that applicable.....

Just selectively?

Indeed, but i wasn't concentrating on them at that time. Foolinc had asked about why i was voting for him and i was explaining my thought processes about him as the game went along. Please note that foolinc is no longer my top vote. Pay attention to context, sir!

Which is scummy because you're willing to hold it against a player just to push your case against him, and not to uniformly apply it to every player.

So how is it scummy, if it's only scummy for foolinc?

Talitha, you can look at any of my other games, as I believe theirs quite a few to draw an example of my play.

[IH]

Well, my theory is shot I believe.

Wanna know why I thought my theory was mostly correct? Because I don't have a rolename. My PM is almost an exact carbon copy of the one in one of the mod's first post.

I didn't even realize it until later yesterday after MGM claimed, and I double checked with my mod my rolename.

._. Innocent Fresnoite.

I am relatively sure IH is scum, and NEEDS to be lynched today.

Thesp came up as scum, and yes, that's a surprise to me. However, Thesp was a member of the mafia AND a character from the book.

Why else would someone think that Members of the book MUST be scum? If they are scum and know that the scum team is proposed of SOLELY mafia members, and all who had died at that point are people from Fresno.

Condorcet coming later.

Vote: IH

Well, for one thing, how many people believed my theory? How long did I keep expressing it anyways? If you think my theory is suspicious, why didn't you think Skruffs was yesterday, when his was clearly wrong, because Xyzzy's role, an innocent, was a confirmed fresnoite that was not related to the book in anyway.

Also, I know this is Wifom, but wouldn't you think scum would take a more confirmable claim from the book? Thesp could have even taken a more confirmable claim by playing off of the fears that the count was not protown (If he's even in this game)

Thesp's role doesn't have a Wikipedia entry...

First entry of a Google search http://www.dvdverdict.com/reviews/gankutsuouchap2.php Reveals Danglers was someone the Count was getting revenge on.

[IH]

So.... you know you're abilities and members and maintain there should be another?

[IH]

Bleh, Talitha is going the same path Thesp was yesterday about speculating on Nightkills.

[IH]

vote: IH, IH, IH, IH, Mr Grey, IH, ih, Dani, MBL.

What does this do to the condorcent lists? = ) Also who is ih?

[/lazy]

[IH]

Podglork if you'd look he was making the point that their groups having names actually means nothing, not that Mith prefers one type of game.

[IH]

I need to compare Thesp's play here to Boardgames mafia, as he was scum that was also Nightkilled in that game. Possible similarities to give off buddies.

[IH]

Why I think IH needs to die. My answer is in two parts. Firstly the behaviour of Oman and to a slightly lesser extent IH has always struck me as likely scum. I'll back this up when I go over the thread, hopefully tomorrow. Secondly the roleclaim. I think IH made a mistake when reading the example role that the mod gave us - a little misunderstanding that caused him to think that there are townies in the games called 'Innocent Fresninos' when in fact I believe that every role PM has an actual proper name - 'Innocent' being the first name in the example role, and 'Fresnino' being the surname. (This was hard to explain... I hope it's understandable.)

Which is why I pm'd the mod to make sure of my rolename, because I was doubtful as well.

Wow... that may just be fun coincidence! Let's try it again!

LACE SARCASTRO

Now, if you die, it'll be worth it. My role says nothingh about this. I doubt I have the charms to do daykills.

This reeks of overconfident scum who considers himself confirmed. = | I'm forcibly reminded of a scumchat game I was in as a confirmed doc, but was doc scum.

Dude, remember when I said.. "Hidey Ho! Mr. Grey's in the cordorcet?"

Put two and two together and get four. 5 will get you 15 that Mr. Grey's the recursive serial killer.

eh. I'm personally unsure about the mod being the SK. For some reason I'm wondering if the game would just end as a draw between all players if the mod was lynched, basing it off the flavor about all of us actually missing and being held captive.

I have never heard the word Lace used in that context....

^_^ PodGLork Argument.

I know that if I would get a role that I was unfamiliar with, I would look him up. What's even dumber about Cubs's play is obvious. It was a head scratcher, and I will, at the end of this game, absolutely LACE into Cubsfan.

The correct lynch today is XYZZY. Especially with the fact that Cubs only lost to Xyzzy by 1 vote.

I am also going to go back over endday 1 to see if anyone COULD have unvoted cubs, but didn't.

Vote: Xyzzy, Adele, IH

I can see the Lace capitalization. I cannot see the Xyzzy capitalization....

hey you know what's funny? You know how Cubsfan said he knew what would happen to someone if they were mafia? Did he know what would happen to someone if they were neutral? = |

[IH]

SK kills are rarely gunning for scum, especially in the early day.... unless they're trying to blend in as a vig, and then they can be even more dangerous.

GLorkPod-Do you remember anything about Thesp's play from Boardgames? Anything significant as in relations and such?

[IH]

Talitha, why don't you test it by voting for the bot?

[IH]

LML it's already been proven that that proves nothing I believe.

[IH]

1.That's in a different format, first off. When your Lace Xyzzy was posted, it was seperated. It was in two different paragraphs. It was seperated by a quote. It wasn't in the same sentence. There are way to many possible restrictions for that to prove anything.

2.It could be a one shot, or alternating action (as has been mentioned) Like you can only do it on even days.

3.Maybe you can only do it on certain players. Or it was a gift from someone.

4.The method of sending it in could be changed. Maybe one day it would be all caps, the next day pm, the third day italics, the fourth day a different phrase, etc etc etc.

This doesn't mean that LML did it, btw, it just means that his Lace X proves nothing. The scenario of SK noticing it and killing is just as likely. I think the above proves that LML didn't breadcrumb it at least.

[IH]

DP, what do you think of LML's 'confidence' in posting the Lace X players? What do you think of his general attitude since the duel between cubs and his claim?

[IH]

Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 1:47 pm Post subject: 1136

I think the whole LACE XYZ thing is bollocks and that LML is reacting on it in a way that I can't blame him for. Hence I still have him as very low on my suspicion list.

This wasn't the answer. I asked how you felt about his attitude. About how he said it. Not about if you thought it meant anything.

IH, your top suspicions have been Skruffs, Mgm, BM, VitR, LML. You've mentioned that you found DP scummy on a particular topic but never included him in ANY of your Condorcets and you've actually defended him from two players. Can you please explain the evolution of your thought on his alignment in this game?

Bleh, I'm really on the fence about DP. I felt that in the beginning he was town, and then I felt later that my initial read seemed to be wrong, and atm I just don't know.

I'm going to have to eventually go through some more of the thread to try and get a better read on this game. This is why I haven't made a condorcent yet, but if I had to make one right now, it would probably have Talitha, you, LML, Grey, Sarc, and maybe VitR in it. Unsure of the order.

[IH]

Not to mention that that assumption totally doesn't jive with the xyzzy kill. I don't really care that LmL used LACE and XYZZY. FoS: whoever brought it up. You wasted our time with your petty suspicions. Die, person whose identity I'm too lazy to look up!

Uh, yeah it was Sarc, and he even admitted it's just as possible that someone set LML up.

[IH]

Four corners offense is actually pretty good against a spread or a man.

[IH]

Two thoughts about that post, on just how it LOOKS.

First off, it looks like Lee is panicked. I rarely see the statement "There's no other way I can defend myself, I didn't do it!" from anyone but a newbie player. Why this choice of words? We know that Lee.

Also the second part looks more like a distraction at hand.

Lee, what is your opinion on Glorkpod and DP? How about Pooky for that matter?

[IH]

Obligatory placeholder post. Will post content tonight.

[IH]

Oh shiz three days.

kay so here's a place holder vote until I can get a decent post up

NOTE:This will put LML at lynch -1

Vote:LML,

Mr. Grey, Talitha, Sarc, MBL

[IH]

The LACE thing is still bull. Wesson certainly doesn't seem the type for poisoning people. So I stand by my position from yesterday and just gonna say you all got lucky.

I thought he was some form of scum regardless.

Talitha, what do you think of my claim after seeing VitR's role?

That's interesting the way you say that CES, it almost sounds resentful.

When you say "you all got lucky" it almost sounds as if you are not including yourself with us.

Do you consider yourself not a part of the town?

If not, are you scum?

If yes, would you consider the town not lucky for lynching the SK?

FoS:Pooky

I will explain more after CES's response.

The biggest question is, why would LML self hammer? Have you thought about an SK self hammering? It's counter productive. Scum have a reason too, as they can still win.... but an SK?

Based on that, and the nature of his role.... it may be possible that he's not an SK. Notice his alignment is Mass murderer, not SK, or Neutral. I don't think he's a "mafia" group, but.... the biggest thing that factors in is that he was hiding something.

Night scene information isn't usually reliable, but perhaps a bit of foreshadowing... meh.

[IH]

I think the self-hammer was caused because he was pissed off at the circumstances and vehemence of his bandwagon. Pooky, for one was relentless, and LmL got run up/into a reaction by something thats probably straight up bullshit coincidence. Either that or is God's way of making sure a positive balance between good and evil exists in this world.

I think thats just a stupid doubt to put into the town's heads IH.

Like LML wasn't town.

yeah.

So why would an SK selfhammer?

Pooky, why did you throw suspicion on CES for an arbitrary statement?

[IH]

An SK would selfhammer because he was upset and angry.

Why do you want to know?

Ok, now think about the purpose of a self hammer. Is it anger, or to limit information to help partners?

Am I mistaken in the purpose of a selfhammer?

[IH]

His death, as an SK would not lead to more suspicion on his interrogators, I could probably quote 3 games where mafia have seemed cleaner due to a vehement attack on an SK with very little research to look at them. The adverse? I haven't heard of it happening. So "sacrificing" himself so his pursuers would look scummy is just plain wrong. A player of his caliber wouldn't waste his effort. Plus if he was trying to be beneficial to the town he wouldn't CUT the day.

You're not taking LML's personal vindictive personality into the equation.

[IH]

I am with Pooky on not liking CES' "You guys got lucky" comment. It seperates us from him, us being the majority of the players. Even if I was 100% certain that LML was town and was completely against lynching him and defended him the whole way to no avail and he came up town, I would say "We got lucky." not "You guys got lucky." So I dont buy that defense.

Thats kind of stupid.

Especially considering how CES probably wouldn't bother with a semantic of language, since he protested against LML's semantic of language. I would doubt he would distinguish it.

[IH]

I don't think that really works so well as a phrase IH.
Can you reproduce your thoughts in intelligible English. Like, what you did, but without the butchering.

No. Because the English language hates me.

But I'll try.

Like.... ok CES didn't think LML was guilty because of him using LACE like Pooky did.

I don't think he'd distinguish as town or scum that people got lucky based on alignment, based on that knowledge.

I read your post and understood it completely. You stated that you thought you were wrong, but that you felt it might have been a safeclaim (something on which I would like you to elaborate, if you don't mind). You also stated that you wanted to reasess exactly why you were suspicious of Oman/IH and whether you still felt it was valid. Have you made that reasessment? Do you feel that your suspicions were valid? Why exactly did you suspect him to begin with?

Ok, thanks to Glork and his awesomeness, I am now confident of Talitha as not being town.

Why?

Declaring she was going to reassess something, and then completely forgetting about it, which means she's not taking her suspicions seriously. Thats how I'm viewing it anyway.

I was wrong about doubting his claim
- My intial reaction when the day broke was, 'OK, IH must certainly be town...' I obviously didn't post that as I do not like to announce a player as cleared.
- Someone else (can't remember who) mentioned safe claims
- Thought to myself.. 'Hmm, i bet LML was given Mercedes as a safe claim.. he was awfully willing to claim'
- Thought to myself.. 'Hmm, I wonder if the other scum have safe claims too'
- Thought to myself.. 'Hmm, I bet the mafia, if they are given safe claims, would be given lesser believable safe claims than 'Mercedes', as a balance thing'.
- Thought to myself.. 'Hmm, I guess IH isn't cleared after all.'

I take issue with your time process....

Based on Post 1345, this doesn't seem to be your thought process.

For me, it's back to the drawing board. I had two top suspects yesterday, one is now dead and the other one is less suspicious. Not cleared because mith might have been sneaky enough to give 'Innocent Fresnoer' (or whatever) as a safe claim. Anyway, what it means is that I will have to go back over the thread to see what made me suspicious of Oman/IH in the first place, and whether I still feel that way.

I'm drawing it off of this. I think Glork hit on something significant when he mentioned you not doing this.

vote:Talitha

Logictus, Mr. Grey, Pooky

[IH]

I think *I* hit on something significant when I mentioned that me not doing this yet was because of my busy week, and recovering from said week. A small amount of patience please, m'dear.

Don't act like Mos ;_;

I know what you said, but I'm voting you, not because you haven't done it, but because I got the feel from one of your earlier posts that you hadn't remembered it until Gaspar mentioned it.

[IH]

MBL. Cubs claimed what his action would do on scum, or probably I would guess mafia.

Now look at Thesp's alignment, and look at LML's alignment.

I was actually just thinking about this last night.

[IH]

Also Mr. Grey is in my condorcent, because I'm kind of curious what will happen if he's lynched, and I'd rather him be lynched than someone I don't have a read on I believe.

[IH]

Err, aren't their alignments in the first post though?

Doesn't Thesp's say Parisian mafia, and LML's say something killers?

[IH]

Huh, seems like my last post wasn't 25 words long, so this one should be.

More specifically this should be a placeholder post and allow me to look over the last two to three days, to see if

1.There was any interaction that would support my theory of LML having some form of partner that was previously informed of it

2.To try and formulate some other suspicions, because I feel like we're starting to grasp at straws. I know I've probably been doing it a little bit more, but right now we're about to start relying on slips (Pooky attacking CES for saying "you" and Gaspar attacking Setael for stuff on the first post(which I actually kind of agree with, because I find that excuse of hers lame)) . ANYWAYS, we can only go so far with slips like that.

[IH]

I suddenly have a strong urge to move to Logictus

unvote, vote:Logictus

, Talitha, Mr. Grey, Pooky, Setael

[IH]

Ok here's the playerlist

Cogito Ergo Sum
Dragon Phoenix
foolinc
Gaspar, replacing PlaysWithSquirrels D1
IH, replacing Oman D1
logicticus
MrBuddyLee, replacing Adele D2
PookyTheMagicalBear
Sarcastro, replacing Dani Banani D3, Mastermind of Sin D1
Talitha
Tamuz, replacing Thestatusquo D1
Zindaras
Mr. Grey


Striking off the players I have in my condorcet. Underlining the players you asked me about.

Cogito Ergo Sum

Dragon Phoenix

foolinc

Gaspar

IH

logicticus

MrBuddyLee

PookyTheMagicalBear

Sarcastro

Talitha

Tamuz
Zindaras

Mr. Grey

Kay, so my biggest question is, what is so important about those three, that I seem to have to place them in my condorcet. Why not Zindy, Tamus, or Foolinc?

I'm curious why you want me to put you four in my condorcet, but not these three.

Clearly, the people on my list are there because they are people I have had more than some suspicion on them, in a slightly less than random order. I do not have a clear enough grasp at this point to form a complete condorcent, and decided to make this one, like I have the past few times I've made one I believe.

My question still stands why you left Tamuz, Zindy, and Foolinc off that list.

[IH]

<3 Zindy.

Zindy how do you feel abot CES's replacement though? (as I said the same thing as you)

[IH]

Foolinc - What specifically makes you think that LML couldn't have made a day kill? I'm really curious because it's not obvious to me.

If I may, I want to answer this if Foolinc doesn't answer sufficiently, as I'm unsure what you're trying to do here.

DP-

You say you don't want to change your condorcent, and I've seen another question of why we should "waste" a lynch on him.

A better question is, if you think he's a risk,

why

wouldn't you have him on your condorcent? I've been thinking about a Mr. Grey lynch, and I think one of a few of these things will happen.

1.Multiple roles will be crippled
2.We'll go into a happily ever after situation
3.We'll all lose
4.We'll all draw
5.We'll no lynch
6.Mr. Grey will be lynched, and somebody else will become an incarnation of dante.

I find the 6th the most unlikely, and any of the first five to be on equal terms.

[IH]

No Tamuz. There was a bandwagon against Lee for that. Pooky was not on the bandwagon because of that.

[IH]

so you admit you are just being lazy then?

but its not just you, there is so little conversation going on right now it disgusts me.

we have to lynch in less than 5 days and i dont know where half the town stands and those that i do, i dont know enough about it seems.

what can we do to get more posting from everyone?

So.... do you think he's scum, or are you just trying to discredit him?

Also how is this not consistent with normal Sarc play?

Ok the weekend is coming up, and I just finished a big history paper that was due today, so I should start my review of the last day or so relatively soon.

[IH]

EBWOP:Deadline is the 30th I believe, since the day post was made on the 16th.

[IH]

Blah, another replacement.

Well, good luck seteal, but I think you are the best lynch today through no fault of your own, just the fault of your predecessor.

I really didn't like this post. It's a gut thing/I don't like how he voted CES, and then auto decides that Seteal is the best lynch for the day. I feel like he said this, just because Pooky had mentioned it, and there really wasn't to much opposition to it, so he automatically voted Seteal, and said that she was the best lynch.

Closer to a hunch I guess.

[IH]

Pooky-Can you show me a game where you've been town and haven't tried to start an alliance?

[IH]

so because someone is a replacement they should automatically get a reprieve? You couldnt possibly believe that.

The problem with this response is it automatically disregards everything I say, by misinterpreting it.

I really didn't like this post. It's a gut thing/I don't like how he voted CES, and then auto decides that Seteal is the best lynch for the day. I feel like he said this, just because Pooky had mentioned it, and there really wasn't to much opposition to it, so he automatically voted Seteal, and said that she was the best lynch.

Closer to a hunch I guess.

Now if you'll read closer, Logictus, the meat of my argument is the argument against CES, which you applied to Setael, instead of someone else (as Pooky even seems to have dropped it), because you proclaimed they were obviously the best lynch.

In fact, I don't think her replacing in has anything to do with my argument at all.

[IH]

@Pooky:Is that a yes or a no.

If that is a yes, please do.

[IH]

It's just a hunch. Thats why I listed so many possibilities.

I came up with that idea when someone mentioned he was the "current incarnation of Dantes". I don't have any reason to believe as such, but from a modding standpoint, it would be an interesting mechanic to use.

It's not that I think that'll happen, but I think it's possible, which was why I listed it.

[IH]

Placeholder post so I don't get replaced.

See I'm posting. Why is foolinc still alive, btw. -_-; Seriously.

By that I don't necessarily mean lynch.

[IH]

Why did you target zindy last night?

[IH]

I was actually stating about a nightkill as well.

I've also expressed that I think Foolinc is town, yesterday. I'm getting more unsure about that, especially with his night choice.

I think if Foolinc is scum, then there are two scum groups, or else Logictus was killed by a vig.

[IH]

I'm not sure why you think Logic would have been targeted by a Vig. No vig in their right mind would shoot a claimed Mason like that.
The "two scumgroups" bit is interesting, given Tally's earlier statement/conclusion that multiple kills was likely a result of multiple scumgroups.

Actually it could be another SK.

If Foolinc is scum there HAS to be another killing group, because they'd surely know about Foolinc. They'd want to keep Logictus alive, because that would implicate Foolinc too much.

So, IF Foolinc is scum that means that there is another killer other than whatever group Foolinc is in.

[IH]

Setael could you direct me to where your suspicions were by either Post number, link, or reposting them? Thanks in advance.

[IH]

When this was suggested earlier, an attack was made.

What has suddenly changed your minds? (See day 1)

Setael I will respond to your attacks soon.

[IH]

...... so why is that provisional? I'm not sure what the advantage is. It's like withholding a vote outside of lylo.

[IH]

Hi SBL

[IH]

EDIT-After lunch if I have time between then and when I meet with my student advisor to sign up for classes, I'll respond to Setaels attacks on me.

[IH]

I did not ._.

[IH]

Placeholder post of 25 words before I respond to the post on Setael.

Also is it just me, but how has Zindaras not been replaced yet? It doesn't seem like he's posted yet today.

[IH]

First of all, I can confirm Zindy has been doing like this in most of his games. I have a very good example for it in a bit, but a game hasn't ended yet.

Posts 1447, 1517, 1548

298- I can see IH being scum after his intro to the game. Replacing in when he did, scum would not want to support the Skruffs wagon. Rather, they’d treat it just like IH did. He also seemed to be careful about Thesp. Everything he said about Thesp could be expected from a scumbuddy. Also in this post, based on the fact that he doesn’t say a word about foolinc but then lists him as scum, I would guess that foolinc was thrown in for distancing and is also likely scum with IH.

IH’s 400 is scummy. Attempts to discredit Adele and throw suspicion on BM.

Skruffs wagon-Uh, couldn't have been the only one not supporting a Skruffs wagon. Would you say that it would be mutually exclusive for scum to do it? Did you also take this into account which was in post 298?

I can never get a read on Skruffs = (

Thesp-How was I careful about Thesp? I mentioned I thought one of his quotes were intriguing, and that I thought he was protown. There were probably other players I mentioned even less than Thesp.

Foolinc-Foolinc was probably in my condorcent where he was because he was scummy neutral. He was indeed preceeded by 4 players in my condorcent.

Post 1517-
So, how is me stating a fact subtly defending Thesp?

746 IH still pushing at logic for figuring out MGM’s breadcrumb so quickly. This argument makes IH look scummy and logic look town since IH’s logic makes no sense to me. It seems a lot more likely that scum would avoid being the one to figure out MGM’s hidden code, since it draws attention to them and can bring up the very argument IH is making against logic.

Either a differing of opinions, and the fact that you don't understand my logic is unanswerable for me.

808 – 811 : IH and foolinc unlikely to be scum together

Noted

Also curious how Setael thinks it more likely Thesp was bussing me, while there were surely others doing the same thing, even some carrying on an Oman vote?

This pots makes gaspar look town but I think his conclusion about IH is wrong. I find it hard to believe that IH would be “stupid town” and give info to scum. More likely he is scum who felt the need to subtly tell his scum buddies that they should NOT claim to be the count.

Wouldn't I have just told them the preceding night? It would be insanely retarded for scum to try to convey a message like that to buddies. How likely do you think that is that it actually happened. Would YOU do it as scum?

DP 889 and IH in 892 and 894 re: “password” vs. “secret word”. Both DP and IH’s posts come off looking scummy. IH has never actually said he has a secret word, but has tried to subtly imply it. Same with DP.

So do you think that only town roles would have a secret word? I do indeed have one, but I don't see why having one and not having one should matter, or else the game would be broken by claiming words.

IH’s comments on foolinc in this post way too over the top for buddying up. Looks like IH is mafia, and foolinc isn’t.

if I turn out to be town, what would you think about Foolinc? Why do you auto clear foolinc for me 'not being scum' with him. How is it more likely I'd buddy up to a buddy, but not try to secretly convey a message to them in the middle of the day?

You also agree with MBL I'm artful and attentive. Thanks.

[1020 IH claims (WHY?) and says he has no role name, just innocent fresnoite

To explain my skepticism of MGM, and to clear up a few things. Notice MGM's rolename. He is a townie with a rolename.

I am a townie without one.

Though he doesn’t point it out, what IH is saying could be applied to himself as well – seems like he wants the town to think “if IH was scum, he would take a more confirmable claim from the book and he certainly wouldn’t say he has NO role name” without him actually having to say it.

I stated it was Wifom

Setael you seem to be on a one track mind. Please refer to open 19. I know you know the game,

Actually on that note

Fos:Setael

as I've just drawn a slight connection between the two games. Slight.

1064 MBL’s analysis of Thesp’s play. Says “Glued to IH all day, gives very few ongoing specifics. Sticking doggedly to a scumpartner or riding the easy lynch? I'd lean towards the latter.”
How was IH the easy lynch? I see no reason to make the conclusion MBL did here unless he has a reason to defend IH

I've had votes and condorcents on me on and off. You don't think I would, or would've been, an easy lynch?

1138 IH looks like he’s trying to distance from DP

If DP comes up scum, I will be suspicious of Setael. It seems she's been linking him with people alot. I could possibly be wrong, but I the only name I see more than mine (or quite possibly Thesp) in her posts is DP, and I have a feeling as scum, she'd link a buddy with others.

I suddenly feel alot less confident about a Foolinc lynch of any kind. I'm seeing to many opinions, including mine, leaning towards "why is he still alive?" feels like scum trying to throw a lynch off... of course it could also be a good bussing job as well.... meh, I don't feel he should be the play for the next day or two (or possibly three)

Setael agrees that it's possible LML is part of an SK scum group.

I think it's funny Setael doesn't think it's possible for Gaspar to be scum with me. Gives me a funny feeling.

1379 scummy. Trying too hard to appear active and pro-Town without actually doing anything

I don't see how a semi place holder post by DP is scummy. I think she's starting to grasp at straws.

Setael keeps wavering on whether Foolinc is town or scum.

BLAH ... I don't like the vibe coming from Setael after looking at those three posts from her. I know someones probably going to ignore this whole post, and just say Omgus, but meh.

I don't even know who else I want to go for at this point, but I think right now it's pretty imporant to do condorcents if we want to get a list with activity slowing down. I feel if we were going to do this, we should have done it at the beginning of the game, with a less solid feel on suspicions. I also feel like it's partially to blame for the lack of solid suspicions amond alot of players.

I do know that I thought that CES was town but... bleh. I just dunno.
These other people in my condorcet are there from half formed hunches, Gut feelings, and memories of stuff.

Vote:Setael

, SBL, DP, Talitha, Sarc

Tags removed. Please use bold tags only for voting and unvoting. - Mod

[IH]

IH, you just made your monthly "post that reads protown". You have me as your #2 suspect. Otherwise, our condorcets are similar except for Gaspar. Please explain your take on him this game. In my opinion, his attack on me is so mealy-mouthed you couldn't POSSIBLY explain it in a rational sense. And yet you sheep along with him. You found me clean, then pretty much nothing happened, then you moved me to #2. The rest of your suspicions jive to me but wtf on those two.

Meh, I don't think Gaspar has actually done anything to scummy atm, but I really need to go over some things indepth. Gaspar is kind of pinging my senses in a way where he's... on the edge of suspicions. I probably should add him into my condorcet at the very end. It's closer to a gut feeling with t/him.
You on the other hand, I'd have to do the same thing. From things I remember, there were things I agreed with a game day or two ago, and there were other things I didn't like. When I said half formed feelings, memory of things, and gut, I was most definitely serious.

If DP comes up scum, I will be suspicious of Setael.

What a coincidence, because if DP comes up scum, I will be suspicious of IH. This statement very much felt like he knows DP will come up scum and would then like to somehow get me lynched for it.

Uh I said that because you were linking DP with people. Did I not state that? That's kind of important.

If DP comes up scum, I will be suspicious of Setael. It seems she's been linking him with people alot. I could possibly be wrong, but I the only name I see more than mine (or quite possibly Thesp) in her posts is DP, and I have a feeling as scum, she'd link a buddy with others.

[IH]

Zindaras was also unattentive scum in open 20, where in lylo he didn't hammer for something like two days or so. I can't remember the exact time frame.

IH: post 1573: Logisticus killed by a vig? O rly?

If Foolinc is scum, yahrly.

DP why do you think Sarc is scummier than Setael, when you said she was likely scum?

I may be adjusting my condorcet and putting Sarc lower... I'm getting a better vibe from him, kind of like his play at the end of royal family.

[IH]

DP, if Foolinc is scum, or by that I mean Parisian mafia, then I'd say there has to be another killing group out there or that Foolinc is a traitor, or possibly that they're stupid scum.

First of all, why would the scum kill a claimed power role that the town would expect doc protection? That would implicate foolinc even more. While it is entirely possible the scum didn't think that through, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and base it's possible there is another mafia group, another Sk, or some form of a vig out there.

[IH]

I think it's more likely that there's a mafia roleblocker that has been blocking foolinc. Another mafia group or an SK would be equally concerned about the doc protecting a claimed power role, so they wouldn't be any more likely to target him. A mafia roleblocker would better explain the mafia's confidence in picking off claimed power roles without being worried about wasting their kill.

Since the whole reason for my above was if Foolinc was scum. If he's town, it doesn't matter anyway.

Tags removed. Please use bold tags only for voting and unvoting. - Mod

[IH]

Hey. Glorkspar. Look closer.

1.Only if Foolinc is parisian mafia
2.It's not necessarily a vig, it's another killing group other than the parisian mafia

I've explained reasoning. If you don't want to read my rationale, please quit asking = (

[IH]

I didn't say vig.... someone else said vig.

I said another killing group.

Ok, once more. Last time.

Let's assume Fool is scum and in contact with his buddies. Surely, they know that the majority of the town believes Log's claim. They know that Fool has claimed doctor, and that he will be expected to protect, right? So, if Fool is actually NOT a doctor (or is a scum doctor) why would they implicate their own member?

On second thought there are other possibilities, though I'm unsure how much more likely they are. Like Fool is a traitor, that there are scum that didn't think it through, or there are scum that are trying to get their on buddy lynched by way of bussing.

If neither of those three are true, then it means that either there is A.Another killing group (Second SK, Vig, second Scumgroup, etc etc) B.Fool is town who seriously didn't protect logictus last night.

Further more, Foolinc HAS to be Parisian mafia for any of this to make sense, since if he's part of a second group, then the Parisian could have done the kill. I repeat. Only for this to MAKE SENSE.

If Foolinc does turn up scum though (especially doc scum), I would say that Zindy is his partner. Why? Because he protected Zindy. I have a feeling, from what I would do as a scum doc, that he is telling the truth of his target, mostly from fear of a tracker or something of the like. Therefore, if he is indeed protecting a buddy last night from some type of kill, then that would be Zindaras.

Understand?

[IH]

Then take what you will from my logic. If you believe my logic, then you believe one of four things.

Fool is town
Fool is being bussed
Fool is a traitor
Fool is with stupid scum

If there is a second killing group..... it's a tossup, but I would guess further that they could be a restricted killing group (see Freaktown IV, where Scum group A could only kill on even nights and Scum group B could only kill on odd nights) thought I'm personally unsure how well that would hold up.

Atm though, my mind is drawn to the possibility of LML being in a group.

I'll try to post something other than speculation about this sometime soon.

[IH]

IH: post 1573: Logisticus killed by a vig? O rly?

I am an angry guy with glasses. Phear me >= |

Talitha whatever happened to you going through your case on me again?

I am not giving foolinc a free ride, but I do think it is too soon to string up our only claimed doctor. Especially since there are in my opinion better candidates.

I would not put it past mith to exclude a pro-town doctor altogether. But I am not willing to put my money on that right now.

This post feels scummy.

I think if we all come together on a DP lynch, we'll hit scum. His last post telling us "we're handing the game to scum on a silver platter" just sounds like something scum would say to sound town.

Maybe anyone who thinks I'm wrong about DP and thinks he's town tell me why you think he's town. Otherwise vote him.

This post feels scummier. It's the "If we all come together" part that does it.

Also-
@Glorkspar-If you'd look at my condorcet, I'm actually unsure if this says anything about Foolinc's alignment atm, but it should be noted for when his alignment inevitably shows up. Nobody seems to notice that I said if, and didn't draw any alignment conclusions from it, they just say "OH EM GEE, YOU THINK THERES A VIG, WHAI?"

IH SMASH!

[IH]

I actually may move my vote to Zindie soon, if only because I feel like we need a natural lynch. Leaving it up to a maybe for condorcet won't cut it.

Setael, I am unsure about DP, but I do know that he's been posting placeholder posts the most out of anyone. I'm actually unsure if this signifies anything other than a busy DP, but it is something to note.

I have already listed my views on you and him being possible scum.

I demand a Foolinc post.

[IH]

I'm a normal townie doctor who did not protect logictus. That's it. Nothing more. However, I am going to note that you are trying to connect me with Zindy with this "what if I was scum post."

I'd also like you to explain what makes you think there is the 3rd killing group?

Yes. I did indeed connect you with Zindie. If you're scum.

Also I refuse to explain my reasoning. If you can't read, I can't explain.

[IH]

I'd also like you to explain what makes you think there is the 3rd killing group?

Well, I'd have to explain through my logic again.... and I don't think I'd do a very much different job of what I did last time (since he asks what makes me think there is a third one), I'm not going to do it again, as it would distract away from the importance of what we're talking about it.

Also, IH SMASH.

Pooky, you're not following the Zindie trend for ALL of his games though......

pretty much for me, a Zindy lynch would be a complete tossup, a 50/50 chance to try and avoid the no lynch, especially after the fiasco yesterday. Zindy, claim TONIGHT, so we don't have literally HOURS to try and figure out if we want to lynch someone else.

[IH]

You can't make the comparison!

Watch me.

When someone doesn't have time to get on and is apathetic for everything.... well it's not really dependent on game, or status. You act like Zindie has so much put into this game he should care, but with the game growing this lage (almost 70 pages at this point), it's only going to get worse.

I would also compare players that began to get apathetic in LO or LO2.

I'd just say at this point it's not a tell for Zindie. Not at the moment.

[IH]

I dislike the way that this pooky wagon has started up literally right before the deadline. DP is going second in an attempt to make sure there's a condorcet leader.

unvote, vote:Zindaras

, DP, Setael, Talitha, Sarcastro

[IH]

I agree with this lynch, but....

stop voting, as I have no clue how close we are to lylo, but I personally do not approve of a speed lynch this close until at least everyone checks in.

I'm pretty sure that, regardless of Zindies alignment, two-three scum gave themselves away on the pooky wagon btw.

[IH]

.....Sarc and Gaspar may be scum together.

I need to review their interactions to see if my theory is supported with evidence, but I'm near certain most of the game they've mentioned that the other is scum, but not really followed up with a vote.

[IH]

Gaspar
DaniBanani/MoS/Sarc

Kay this will be a mini pbp of GaspGlorkPodSpar.

(Glork.)

Mgm, it makes ZERO sense as a scum ability. Once the duel had happened and nobody died, what do you think would be each player's alignment?

If Cubs were scum and failed to daykill LmL, does that mean LmL is scum? That's a silly ability.... if Cubs were lynched that day (which he was), he would have outed his scumbuddy.
If Cubs were scum and had daykilled LmL as town, he'd be outed for sure (for claiming he only kills if his opponent is scum). If Cubs were scum and killed LmL as scum, it would only make sense if there were multiple scumgroups. Not ruling that out as a possiblity, but I see that as something of a ridiculous stretch to conclude this early on.

I guess I could see the case where Cubs were an SK with an extra scumkilling daykill, but that seems like a bit of a stretch as well. And I would have to question whether you honestly could have believed that that was the case.


Needless to say, my top suspects remain approximately the same.
Vote: Adele, [Mgm, Xyzzy], [other people], No Lynch, LoudmouthLee, Gaspar

Does anybody notice what I noticed? Notice LML, with Gaspar confirming him as town. I didn't really catch that vibe from this post at all.....

The response to CES's "woo, daykill!" post has been interesting. A select handful of people have pointed out that they're not particularly fond of it, but nobody's actually made a move on CES. I almost get the feeling that scums are waiting to see if anything will actually come of it.

I may investigate this if the Gork Sarc theory comes belly up.

Incidentally, Thesp, could you articulate your suspicion of Dani? A brief skim doesn't turn up very much, and I'm not seeing the "case" against him.

I will also be reviewing Thesp and any attacks against Dani/MoS

This looks bad to me.... the fact that you would come to the conclusion that Thesp is a lyncher with you as a target makes me think this is more OMGUS and less "you're scum reaching for an attack on another player."

Is there any reason you believe Thesp to be a lyncher specifically? Do you think his D1 play would indicate that such is the case?

I totally forgot about the thesp/dani interaction. I wouldn't think to much about this until Glork just totally let him off the hook with this.

Okay, well that would change the validity of your argument. I didn't know that your response was based on experience with Thesp as a lyncher. I had concluded that it was "You're going after me hard, but you're wrong so you must be scum" which would indeed have been OMGUS.

Slight connection so far.

I find it odd that LmL is more certain that IH is scum, because I feel the exact opposite. My past experiences with ThespScum are Scrubs (a bit of an anomoly given VitR was wrongly outed immediately and I got Thesp to kill himself a night later) and modding Board Games Mafia (in which I barely recall Thesp putting suspicion on his scumbuddies). I don't think that his attacks on IH are indicative of a scum pairing, and I'd like to hear LmL's take on Thesp/IH interactions and on whether he feels IH could be soloscum or part of a secondary scumgroup.

......How did LML know thesp was scum? = | this is making me want to do a full reread.

I don't like the Primate Glork disagreement anymore. It seems.... staged. = |

What I find disturbing about you, Tally, is not that you think he may have done so 'out of courtesy' of the players, but the fact that you're not even interested in seeing if he could be an SK. If you're a protown player, your job is to eliminate all threats to the town. A possible threat has emerged, and you're gunning down that possibility as a mere "distraction." That kind of attitude stirkes me as patently scummy

I dislike this as well.

fos

Gaspar why did you concentrate so hard on experimenting?

Huh, it seems that so far (Glork's post 102) that he has mainly ignored dani/sarc, other than calling them protown.

I'd be up for wagoning some fools and forcing some claims right about now. If there are three Parisian Mafiates left, we're only a single mislynch removed from LyLo, potentially. Like Pooky said, yesterday's No-Lynch was pretty terrible, and there are a lot of people who seem to be content sitting on the sidelines and watching. The more I think about it, the more it bothers me... minus points for TSS, Zindie, Sarc, and DP. Consequently, it's time for a Condorcet update:

Unvote
Vote: the silent speaker, Zindaras, DP, Talitha, Sarcastro, Foolinc, Saetel, Pooky, IH, No Lynch, Gaspar

Suspicion enters here, but Sarc is still below the other three he mentions AND talitha. Why was Talitha above Sarc here?

He also points out about Sarc's omgus attack a little bit later. For Dani you thought that was protown, but now you think it's scummy? DId you think it was scummy? Why?

Unvote
Vote: Zindaras, Talitha, DragonPhoenix, SilentLee, [foolinc, IH, Pooky, Sarcastro, Setael], No Lynch, Gaspar

Glork's 143rd post. Why is Sarc suddenly down with me, foolinc, Pooky, and Setael?

Something in Sarc's play reminds me of the way CES said "I'm going to follow your lead regarding MBL" to me in Face-To-Face Mafia. Both CES and MBL were scum. I'm not really all that convinced there's a direct parallel (mostly because I don't find Sarc's predecessors to be all that scummy), but the thought just occurred to me, and I feel like pointing it out. Even though Sarc has said he's having issues with reading people in the game, I'd like to see, before day's end, a rundown of his thoughts on each player, as best as he can give them. This applies paricularly to the folks he hasn't really mentioned so far.

...this sounds like he has a thinly veiled suspicion of Sarc, but... Sarc is still with the "relatively protown players", right?

fos

and now his last few posts.... feel like the turnaround he had right after the no lynch, and pretty soon Sarc will be forgotten.

Ugh, I'm trying to decide what it means, because he has had the same treatment with DP, except he's suspicious of him....

Bleh, I'm not sure I want a Gaspar lynch atm. The way that pooky wagon went down.... I want to lynch someone that hopped on it last minute, either Pooky, DP, or Sarc.

DP-Why did you hop on the pooky wagon?

[IH]

Well that was useless

[IH]

EBWOP:That would also explain all of the jumping around Gaspar did, and the attack on Mr. Grey.

Also the interest he took when I was talking about the reincarnation of Dantes.

Remind me about those thesp interactions later.

[IH]

I'll be gone Wednesday and Possibly Thursday.

[IH]

You mean post 1781? ^_^

err, anyways, if Glork is neutral, it is entirely possible that Glork is neutral and Sarc is scum. It wouldn't be to much of a stretch for Sarc to just agree with him no matter alignment actually....

[IH]

Ok, I want to lynch Zindie after his last post.

Seriously. I will be happy with him dead.

[IH]

argh, quick check in, sorry I've been sick and sleeping.

[IH]

Gaspar, you have a kill? You seem to imply it in your above post.

If so, what were your targets?

Sarc's rolename claim didn't look anything like a cop claim, it looked more like "hey look, I believe Gaspar, and this is why, etc etc" similar to when I explained myself after MGM's lynch.

I still would like a Zindaras lynch, it looks like he's just trying to keep a faltering wagon on someone who had attacked him alot.

[IH]

I would say DGB's claim is extremely null. It feels more like a rolecop/hider, but it could just as well be something akin to a gunsmith/hider......

meh, I agree with SL claiming. Sarc as well.

[IH]

gunsmith tells if a player has a kill or not?

Maybe closer to a watcher or nightwatchman.

but whatev

[IH]

Yes I am a vanilla townie.

More later mebe.

If only I knew how to count... or had a brain!

Now that... is... irony. Wait, no it's not...

25 yet?

[IH]

Quick question to Sarc. Did you use your secret word everyday? Has everybody else?

I personally haven't used mine at all, and didn't put any stock in it.

= ( We should have claimed them on day one and see if they made a sentence. Meh

[IH]

zomg quick check in to have posted in 72 hours so I don't get replaced while reviewing the last few pages.

[IH]

Why is Silent Lee scum again?

Why is Talitha cleared? I don't really like DP buddying with her.

huh I missed SL's and Talitha's claim. Going back to look at em.

Kay townie and limited hider. DP is also a limited hider..... one of them is probably scum, though I think they're possibly both telling the truth.

I'd say it's DP. I feel it would make more sense for scum to have a set number of times to hide, while SL just can't do it twice in a row. Just feels more like a scum action.

so, atm...

unvote, vote:DP

, Talitha, Setael, SilentLee, Gaspar, Sarcastro

[IH]

EBWOP:This is also based partly on my speculations from earlier where I thought DP could be scum with just about anyone

[IH]

SL, the scum won't kill Gaspar, because he'd be more likely to hammer in Lylo. With DGB dead, it's no longer lylo.

Sarc, who had limited abilities?

[IH]

Meh didn't even know day had started.
Will be catching up soon. I had my first final today. Last one Monday. Might have time for a few good posts this weekend.

[IH]

Meh I'm sorry guys, I will continue to be useless until Tuesday I'm afraid. Breezing over some of your points GlorkPod, I will note that one or two things (like the fishing thing) you basically thought I was doing it on accident. What now?

Meh the only thing I've gotten is LML, as I've been wrong a good bit lately.

Talitha why have you cleared DP again? Because I COULD be scum, you're going to daykill me? I would prefer you daykill DP personally, as there are so many links to him from EVERYONE.

Ah just noticed Setael is missing. Meh, thats kind of alarming in regards to LML's lynch scene, but I'm still unsure how much stock can be put into info from the mod.

[IH]

I made you a post, but I eated it.

I might make you another one, but I might also have eated it.

Note:I'm at the hospital atm, so I may have time to post, idling the hours away.

[IH]

I have none to speak on my behalf, because it seems you are not scumhunting, but going through the process of elimination.

... someone try to vote Setael, and see if she can be voted. I'm not bothering because if I'm killed, then my vote will be gone in the votecount.

[IH]

Talitha, it made me sad when you said you were hunting scum by elimination, and then said "why did he have to play like that" = (

[IH]

I'm not criticizing, it just made me sad. = \

[IH]

= O Zomg, I didn't notice it until then.