California Trilogy - Dantès in Fresno (Game Over!)

[Gaspar]

Glork here... obviously, mith has ok'd the two of us working together, as together we can maintain the posting requirements for the game. I read the first ~4 pages of the thread a few days ago, but didn't pick up on a whole lot. I'm going to try to dedicate a large chunk of time to read the thread tomorrow evening (likely between 8 and 10 PM EDT)... don't know Primate's schedule, though.

I'm trying to decide if Primate and I should let you know who is posting beforehand, or whether we should just post. I'm leaning towards the former, but thought I'd open it up to discussion.


In the meantime...

Unvote

[Gaspar]

Hi. I haven't actually been following the game up until this point, though I'll catch up first chance I get. I was actually looking at the thread earlier today, but it was only to be very saddened by the fact that jeep wasn't playing in it anymore.

^^^Not Glork.

[Gaspar]

In t'middle o' t' readthrough now. Finish it tomorrow n' post notes.

[Gaspar]

Ok, Glork is on page 3 and will start posting some assorted thoughts as he goes along. I generally find that the best way to do things when I replace into a game. (Note that this is different from my "Big Game Analysis" posts, a la Kingmaker 1 and Face-To-Face. The purpose is not to bust all of the scums or anything... I'm just pointing out whatever sticks out and sending out some feeler questions. I won't even promise to have a vote by the end of all of this, because I will naturally want to see responses to my post. But, as I am never one to shy away from diving right into a replacement gig, I'm just going to churn through as much of this as my brain will allow tonight.) Also, apologies if I re-hash points that have already been said. I'm literally writing paragraphs as I read, so if I say/ask something that has already been said/asked, I'll tell you all to disregard it.


I definitely advocate the use of the Concordet voting method right from the get-go. Somebody (Skruffs, I believe) mentioned how, like any regular votes, they're free to be changed at will.

By the end of page 3, though, he seems particularly obssessed with the wagon against him. As far as I can tell, the earliest votes (aside from Oman's) were more or less random/jokey. Zindaras' tone in particular should make it obvious that he is goofing around. I am not a big fan of Skruffs' OMGUS, but I find those jumping on him (particularly VitaminR, who struck a chord with me in Post 74) to be far more suspect.

FoS: VitR

Pooky's Post 77 made me laugh, but I sortof see where he's coming from. Skruffs' logic often comes across as being odd in others' eyes. (Sidenote: I think, though, it has more to do with the presentation than the logic itself sometimes, though. But that is neither here nor there.) In fact, I was just thinking of asking VitR if he had taken Skruffs' C&H play into account when launching his Post 74 offensive. VitR? What is your meta on Skruffs, and how does that affect your opinion of him?

My predecessor's first posts are, in my opinion, uninspiring. As I said before, I *like* using the Concordet method, and I definitely see myself having multiple suspicions D1 (I usually do have at least two leads going on at once). Obvious difference in personal playstyle/philosophy.

LmL's Post 86 pinged me. Do the words "bus" or "distance" mean anything to you? Is it really unreasonable to suspect two people on opposite sides of an argument?

FoS: LmL

I'm going to ask Pooky approximately the same question I asked VitR earlier. In Post 98, you explain your stance on MoS. However, taking into account his often-flippant playstyle in the early parts of games, what distinguishing factors make you think that MoS is actually worth running up?

Oh, Logic's post 105 brings up something that I meant to address at the start of my post but forgot to do so. I'm surprised that Foolinc's post got virtually no reaction. I somewhat expected a few players to jump on it for setup/rolename speculation, but there wasn't much talk about it. For the record, I find foolinc's post to be misguided, but well-meaning. Plus points to fool.

In the meantime, Logic's "VitR gives me good protown vibes" post baffles me to no end.

Parts of DP's post 111 surprise me.

• I disagree with his take on Jeep. Though Jeep hasn't posted the volume that others have, I think that his votes give a pretty good indication of where he stands. (Note: This is another reason that using the Concordet method from the get-go is a Good Thing.)
  
• I also disagree with his take on MoS -- anybody who has played more than a couple of games with MoS knows that he
  ALWAYS
  starts his games out with a random vote
  using the Dice function
  . Since he couldn't do that, he did the next best thing. I cannot, at this time, think of a non-dice method to "prove" randomness, so I think it's entirely reasonable to take MoS's word for it that he simply made an entire list of random votes. And furthermore, as I indicated in my criticism of Pooky's stance, I don't see why it should be that big of a deal. I think that MoS's series of random-votes has generated at least as much fruitful discussion as "Hay guyz, LmL is scum cuz he talks a lot and annoys me lolololol" or a long-winded but clearly unfounded "case" against somebody as laid out by Zindaras against Skruffs.
  
• VitR -- mentioned that already, though I suppose I could be arsed into explaining what I didn't like about VitR's post. Long story short, I found it opportunistic and a little overdone for Page 3 (Page 2, really, if you don't count the confirms) of the game.
  
• Zindaras' play makes sense to me as somebody who made a whole lot of noise to kick off the game and then made his first observations/analyses based on that. i think that his play makes a lot of sense here, though I understand where you're coming from with the IGMEOY.

I will note that I did, however, agree with the neutral/no-read level comments, as several players have not contributed (much) up to this point. That said,

Minor FoS: DP

for his "I agree with VitR" stance. I feel like this could be a setup to go after VitR later if Skruffs turns up town (which, at this point, I find somewhat likely to be the case).

Why don't you agree? I don't understand why any pro-town role would not use a list.

Hi, QFT, kthxbai.

LmL's Post 120 reminds me of something I should've caught the first time around.

FoS: Adele

, similar to the one I levied on DP just a second ago. Pooky's stance towards MoS is bad enough. Those falling in line with that stance are worse.

DP: Could you

PLEASE

explain Post 122? Do you think there is an advantage to

NOT

using Concordet voting? Do you think that scum are more likely to use (and/or advocate the use of) Concordet voting (and if so, why)?
I am simply not seing your stanc here at all. I agree completely with Jeep's take, and I'd really like you to explain why protown players should find not-using-Concordet preferrable to using-Concordet.

Jeep, does that mean in a regular game that all pro town roles should always be voting?

YES! Absolutely yes! The vote is the protown player's best weapon. It should virtually

always

be used unless a player has a very distinct reason for not using (such as at/near endgame or wanting to prove a point by withholding it).

To expand on Jeep's point (just read Post 137), a vote (or series of votes, such as the case may be) is an official advocation for a lynch on the subject(s). If you're protown, it is assumed that you are voting your top suspect(s). If you are protown, you should have a vested interest inseeing your top suspect(s) lynched. Thus, it is always advantageous to list a preference of players as accurately as possible, because under the Concordet system, that gives the best chances of having somebody at/near the top of your suspect list lynched. That is why, in general, it is useful to use Concordet voting.

The reason it is useful in early-game (some people have said "I'll do it later, but it's pointless now) is because it gives a quick sum-up of your current suspicions. This is important for numerous reasons:

• People can see the progression of your suspicions. If you're town, you've got nothing to hide, so you should be able to respond to any inquiries as to why your suspicions have shifted or adjusted.
  
• An extension of the above point, forcing scum to constantly list all of their top suspects in order limits their ability to suddenly or strategically launch a new attack on a different player. While it does not completely eliminate this possibility ("I just did a re-read on Adele's posts, and I find her to be scummy for these reasons...."), it forces scums to keep up some similar threads of thought/suspicion
  from the very start of the day
  . It's *MUCH* easier to catch flip-flops and inconsistencies if we have repeated detailed lists of suspects.

If you use a list, you should do the legwork and explain why every single individual is on it and why each of them is in the position they're in. Otherwise, we're still clueless on voting reasons if it comes to a deadline lynch.

If you want somebody to explain their list, ask them exactly why they have voted the way they have, in that order. Sometimes a player will not have the time to adequately explain his thoughts.
As a reference, see this post and the following excerpt from this post:

So... it seems that that Thok and I are literally the only players in the game who were absent throughout this entire thing. Truth be told, I don't remember what I was doing around that time, or what my activity level was on the rest of the site. I honestly have virtually no recollection of what happened. I can say that I would've jumped on Emp had I been paying more attention to the game at that point, but that's a claim that can't be validated in the least. What I *do* remember, however, is seeing a sudden burst of "OMG EMP IS SCUM!" And a series of votes and confirm votes. Having not properly grasped the situation, I believe (though I cannot say for certain) that my "MM, VitR, SV?" post was my reaction to thinking that Emp had been quick-wagoned due to the deadline, and that his lynch was probably a mislynch.

In that game, I felt it was important to post my gut thoughts/reaction to a situation, even though I didn't have the time to properly analyze the situation at the time. Still, I wanted to note my reactions so that I could refer to it later. Players did ask me about that post and my thoughts/actions (at least half a dozen times *rolls eyes*), and I explained them.

Basically, the philosophy is that anything is better than nothing. A protown player should have little problem expressing his weighted suspicions. He should also have relatively little trouble expanding upon those suspicions when asked to. Mgm, DP:

NOTHING

is stopping you from asking Jeep to explain his lists. Yet instead of doing that, you have both chosen to simply attack him for his chosen play.

Major FoS: DP, Mgm

Adding players to a list won't magically tell the town what people are thinking, Oman. If you want to know who someone suspects, just ask them, which is true of every game.

Failure. Adding players to the list

will

tell you what you're thinking. It just won't tell people

why

you're thinking it. However, in a game like this, stating your conclusion generally invites questions as to reasons and motives. I find this post particularly uninspiring. In light of CES's prior lack of content, I think it's enough for a

FoS: CES

There is obvious a growing rift here, as VitR has jumped in to the Jeep-camp and ZZ/CES believe that DP's behavior is in the right. I'm actually really liking this conflict now, for all of the info it will provide later.

I would strongly suggest that, later in the game, players come back and revisit this entire debate.

Obviously, I don't yet know what it'll lead to, but I can pretty much guarantee that it will have some Good Information when all is said and done. I'm not sure whether that information will come out until we've seen some bodies, but this is the sort of stuff that people should absolutely pay attention to when looking back on Day One.

Post 158 by foolinc makes me cringe. Brief thoughts on anybody, but the only one he definitely describes as scummy are Skruffs and Jeep.

FoS: foolinc

for what looks like a suspicion-sheep post if ever I saw one.

<--- I am at Post 160, and my eyes are finally starting to glaze over --->

I think I've done more than enough for one night. I want to see the fallout of my grand entrance, as I'm sure there will be a great deal to respond to. In the meantime...

Vote: Dragon Phoenix

, Mgm, foolinc, Adele, CES, Xyzzy, LoudmouthLee

[Gaspar]

Oh, I should probably ask about any relevant claims... I didn't realize we were close to deadline.

Could somebody link me to all relevant claims/information that has been made thus far?

Thankee. <3

[Gaspar]

Also, a brief addendum to my votes, as I somehow missed including VitR:

Unvote
Vote: Dragon Phoenix

, Mgm, foolinc, Adele, CES, VitaminR, Xyzzy, LoudmouthLee

[Gaspar]

(Glork here again)

The accented post came from Primate. I had not begun reading the game at that point.

Mgm, could you please comment on the parts of my post that pertained to you. In particular, I would like you to explain exactly what your stance on early Concordet voting is, and I would like you to respond to this paragraph:

Basically, the philosophy is that anything is better than nothing. A protown player should have little problem expressing his weighted suspicions. He should also have relatively little trouble expanding upon those suspicions when asked to. Mgm, DP:

NOTHING

is stopping you from asking Jeep to explain his lists. Yet instead of doing that, you have both chosen to simply attack him for his chosen play. Major

FoS: DP, Mgm

Right now, I can see from the current vote count that both you and DP are still (or once again) voting for Jeep, and I think that your behavior towards him early in the game was inexcusable. I want you to explain posthaste.

Zindaras: I realize that there's a lot of theory, but I think that it's very applicable to the game. The attacks made by DP and Mgm are, in part, based on Jeep's use and defense of the Concordet method and his theory that those not using it are suspect. And like I said, I'm going for impressions/reactions here, but the manner in which DP and Mgm have launched their attacks on Jeep seems highly suspect to me right now.


As a note to everyone, I will not be able to read the rest of the game until Saturday afternoon/evening EDT. I am going out in a little bit, working all morning tomorrow, and will be at game on Saturday afternoon. Hopefully Primate will be able to jump in with his thoughts before then.

[Gaspar]

And I already shared my opinion on early Condorcet voting.

I'm asking you to

further elaborate

on your opinion of early-day Concordet voting. I would like you to address these two points specifically, without simply saying "I already talked about this." Keep in mind that I have not read much of the game, so I'm not caught up on all of your explanations. I don't care if you have to re-state your opinion, I just want you to do it clearly and concisely:

• People can see the progression of your suspicions. If you're town, you've got nothing to hide, so you should be able to respond to any inquiries as to why your suspicions have shifted or adjusted.
  
• An extension of the above point, forcing scum to constantly list all of their top suspects in order limits their ability to suddenly or strategically launch a new attack on a different player. While it does not completely eliminate this possibility ("I just did a re-read on Adele's posts, and I find her to be scummy for these reasons...."), it forces scums to keep up some similar threads of thought/suspicion from the very start of the day. It's *MUCH* easier to catch flip-flops and inconsistencies if we have repeated detailed lists of suspects.

As far as your attitude towards Jeep, I take issue with a couple of things:

a. He starts out by saying that there's no reason not to use the list unless you're scum who hasn't discussed it with his buddies, or not figured a way to use it to your advantage, but later changes it to saying that by saying that "I don't like using Condorcet voting" discourages other people from doing so - which isn't true and is change to what he first said. (aka backpeddeling)

I don't see the backpedaling here. I think that "Only scum who haven't found a strategic advantage for Concordet won't use Concordet early" is a different point from "discouraging others to use Concordet voting is scummy." I will grant that the two points are

related

. Anytime that a player actively fails or discourages the inclusion of information (such as a series of Concordet votes), that denies the town the ability to analyze said information.
* By refusing to use Concordet, you are denying the town the ability to analyze your own votes.
* By discouraging others to use Concordet, you are attempting to deny the town the ability to analyze their votes.

Different, but related points. I don't think that Jeep backed down from anything.

b. Jeep claimed that votes only need to be justified if people want to follow you. Complete and utter bullocks. Votes need to be justified so you can use someone's vote to deduce their intentions.

How many times have you seen Glork, Fritz, CES, Simenon, Zindaras, or other players make votes without justifying them? Do you fly off the handle at them each and every time? (Glork's answer: I highly doubt that.) If not, why is Jeep's case different than, say, Fritzler back in Face-To-Face?



Furthermore, Mgm:
If you wanted Jeep to explain his votes, why did you not simply

ask him to do so

before launching into a series of explanations as to why he is scum for not having done so?
If Jeep had not used concordet-voting and just had his single votes, would you have gone after him for not explaining his choices? Why or why not?
What do you think of players such as foolinc who made a few vague comments on several players but never fully explained themeselves (as in Post 158 -- See Cubs, Jeep, Logic, Loudmouth, Oman -- all players that he made statements on and/or gave an opinion on without explaining the

WHY

of those statements)? What did you think of foolinc at that point? What separates a list of vague, unexplained comments from a list of Concordet votes?

[Gaspar]

Do you agree? If so, why? Why is it scummy not to?

Have you actually read my posts? Did you not read the lengthy explanations about how posting Concordet votes helps the town? Did you see my explanations on how not-posting them (and/or discouraging others to post them by calling them pointless or scummy) hurts the town?

Minor FoS: IH

for simply not paying any attention to what's going on.

[Gaspar]

Yes I read, and I disagree. Especially in the beginning of the game, which this is mostly about. Not using a condorcent list is not scummy for sake of keeping things simple in the beginning.

I have only used it twice myself. This accomplishes the same thing as someone listing their scum list. Do you expect everyone to do that in every game automatically and everytime?

"Automatically and everytime"? No. Although I've noted your exaggeration/use of extremes.

I will point out, however, that I am the kind of player who, in the vast majority of my games, tries to force players to branch out and talk about other people. I have a tendency to ask for suspicion lists, ask W to give his thoughts on X, Y, and Z.

I have found great success in

FORCING

other players into interactions with each other. Interactions/Opinions from a protown player will be genuine and will have their own indicators. Those coming from a scumbag will be forced and/or contrived and will also have their own indicators. Reading those indicators is a pretty damned good way of finding scums.

While I do not request full suspicion lists from all players in every game "automatically and everytime," I would say that I *DO* generally ask more questions of more players. That is something that not enough players do in Mafia, I think.

I think that players hiding behind the "We don't do it every game, so we shouldn't do it here?" philosophy is using a flawed line of reasoning to avoid making commitments on their thoughts on certain players.

It seems, to me, to be a front to avoid talking about more things. There are probably *DOZENS* of playstyles and strategies that are helpful to the town, but not all of them are employed by every player in every game all the time. Why? Because that is an absolutely preposterous notion. However, that does not mean that we shouldn't employ each of those strategies from time to time. A brute-force method of opinion-sharing is something that I don't think I've ever seen a town try before. I think we should definitely give it a shot.

[Gaspar]

Is anyone worried that tiering innocence rather than to guilt will help scum line up a few targets that they would like to take out if a large amount of people find them innocentish rather than less guilty.

I say this to perhaps suggest we should take off our no-read/inconclusive/innocents from our Condorcet lists (ie lump all 3 of those in 1 category). I say this because from experience if people stress that they feel one player is innocent, and that player is, then scum are often more likely to hit them. Barring other circumstances.

I understand your concern, but I don't think it's a huge issue. Most of the time, players have well-defined opinions of at least a couple of players near the end of days. And in general, I would speculate that not talking about a player means no-read or near-neutral (anywhere from slightly scummy to slightly protown). Scums may not have detailed, person-by-person lists, but they know the top suspicions, usually the biggest protown suspicions, and they can tell who is flying under the gun. When you stop and think about it, I don't think we're giving out hardly any more information than in a game with a normal voting system.

[Gaspar]

Glork here.

DP: Somewhere along the line I got the impression that you were attacking use of the Concordet system early on. I'd have to re-read that part of the game to figure out why I thought that, but I've yet to finish my first readthrough of the game. (I'm on approximately Page 15 -- I actually forgot to mark what post I had stopped on in my notes, but I could probably find where I left off without much trouble.)

Is anyone worried that tiering innocence rather than to guilt will help scum line up a few targets that they would like to take out if a large amount of people find them innocentish rather than less guilty.

I say this to perhaps suggest we should take off our no-read/inconclusive/innocents from our Condorcet lists (ie lump all 3 of those in 1 category). I say this because from experience if people stress that they feel one player is innocent, and that player is, then scum are often more likely to hit them. Barring other circumstances.

I understand your concern, but I don't think it's a huge issue. Most of the time, players have well-defined opinions of at least a couple of players near the end of days. And in general, I would speculate that not talking about a player means no-read or near-neutral (anywhere from slightly scummy to slightly protown). Scums may not have detailed, person-by-person lists, but they know the top suspicions, usually the biggest protown suspicions, and they can tell who is flying under the gun. When you stop and think about it, I don't think we're giving out hardly any more information than in a game with a normal voting system.

It might be inexperience talking but wouldn't this limit information given to the town? It seems to me the best way to find scum is to be as honest as possible and as just as willing to share information. That gives us the best possible chance of the uniformed majority becoming informed before the mafia become the majority (ok, so the mafia will only get to 50% before winning, but screw it, I'm on a roll). So, when using this thought process it seems to me that tiering votes is a good thing for the town as well as the mafia.

That's exactly my point.

The scums already have a pretty good idea of who each player suspects the most. They have a decent idea of which players each of us find likely to be protown.

The town obviously has a pretty good idea of who people suspect (or "suspect," such as the case may be), but the more detailed information gives us a lot more to constructively work with.

I agree with you, foolinc, that it helps both of us. Tamuz guessed that laying out all suspicions in order would help the Mafia choose their kill. I responded by saying that it likely won't give them

that much

more info. The pros to using Concordet definitely outweigh the cons, IMHO.


I also feel obliged to point out at this point that Primate and I talked over AIM a bit last night, and he disagrees with most of what I've said. We're currently trying to figure out some system of balancing our own suspicions (aside from discussing with each other to try to come to a consensus on what to do). So far, the two things we've come up with were a ranking system (where we each do our own ranked suspicion lists and then weigh/average them against each other to come up with a single Concordet list) or to just focus on the points where we

do

agree.

In the meantime.... here is a new list based mainly on my opinion but with some of Primate's thoughts taken into consideration. Obviously, we'll expand more upon this later, but Primate is still churning through the thread just as I am.

Unvote
Vote: Mgm

, Adele, CES, LoudmouthLee, foolinc, Dragon Phoenix

[Gaspar]

EBWOP: Okay, so BM is definitely not the play for today. I am naturally wary of his claim that he will be a "confirmed innocent" based on his ability to gather information. Scum Cops certainly exist (and I've even had an SK with an investigative ability in a game I modded). Still, I've liked Jeep/BM so far, and definitely do

NOT

think that he is the play.

Unvote
Vote: Mgm

, Adele, CES, LoudmouthLee, foolinc, Dragon Phoenix, [logicticus, Pooky, Talitha, Tamuz, Thesp, Xyzzy, Zindaras], [Cubsfan, Skruffs, IH, Dani Banani], Battle Mage, No Lynch, Gaspar

[Gaspar]

His life was the basis/inspiration behind the novel. However, I'm not sure what makes you think that all roles must be characters in the book. If you are protown, you're bleeding information that you probably don't want to reveal. Remember that this game is "Dantes in Fresno" and that it is "based (very) loosely" on the novel.


Also, I'd be okay with Adele as an alternate lynch. The whole "I'm going to sheep" thing doesn't sit well with me.

[Gaspar]

No. Unless your vote removes us from having a Concordet winner, you should be voting for whomever

you

believe is scummiest. Remember that we don't necessarily need a majority before deadline to secure a lynch.

Unvote
Vote: Adele

, Mgm, CES, LoudmouthLee, foolinc, Dragon Phoenix, [logicticus, Pooky, Talitha, Tamuz, Thesp, Xyzzy, Zindaras, VitaminR], [Cubsfan, Skruffs, IH, Dani Banani], Battle Mage, No Lynch, Gaspar

[Gaspar]

Primate: Sorry about my non-participation. I've been leaning on Glork harder than I should be doing. This is my reread to page 10. I have 10-20 on another computer, so if I can get to the bank and back before the deadline hits (I'm not entirely sure when it hits), I'll be able to get that up too.

-Dislike the wave against Condorcet voting during the early stages. Don't care that it's pointless, so is normal random voting, and sticking an extra few second suspicions in there really doesn't actually matter very much at all unless specifically doing it in a scummy way. Unless I don't get something, I don't see why it's any more suspicious than a normal vote. The only way I can really see is if you're attempting to vote in a fashion that will push the lynch of an unexpected candidate at the last minute, and if we're anywhere near the end of the lynch period without our candidates being clear, if not agreed upon, then we deserve the punishment.

-Skruffs wagon was understandable in the sense that skruffs doesn't really make a lot a sense a lot of the time, so I don't think it's surprising there would be a wave against him. I haven't really seen anything particularly scummy from him yet, though I have trouble reading skruffs' posts without it becoming :words:.

-LML's 'bluster' is annoying. I gather it's not that scummy coming from him, but things like that point against mos because 'we dont know his random vote is really random' are just stupid. (also, dislike pooky's point against this. Divestment of responsibility may be a fair criticism if Mos didn't do it every single game ever. I personally reckon thats why he did it. Pervasive habit.)

-Not a fan of Logiticus' #105.

-Like DP's #115.

-VitR's #151 is a bit of a stretch.

-Like foolinc's #158. Disagree with a few of the views, but there's thoughts behind it. I dislike a couple of his townie slots and one of his scummy slots.

-Adele's 178 is pretty much 100% wrong, and despite being technically possible, happens pretty much precisely never.

- Pooky's #199 makes me realise that I still have no idea the difference between pooky being scummy and pooky just being pooky.

- ...Then in #200, LML goes and agrees with it.

Given the nature of the game and the situation here, I'll chisel out a condorcet with Glork first chance I get.

I don't really agree with Glork regarding much, but I feel like a dick moving his Condorcet this close to deadline, considering how much more involved he is than me, and we still haven't figured out a method to sort our votes. It's mostly a moot point anyway, considering I'm quite happy with a LML lynch, and that looks like what's happening here.

[Gaspar]

P: I missed the claim. ugh. It's annoying that we don't have a chance for people to possibly counterclaim, but claims like that are retarded in scums hands regardless. I don't think Cubs is that likely to be scum though.

@LML: I completely missed it.

Give me a sec to look at the lynchlist to see if there are other possibilities.

[Gaspar]

This seems incredibly scummy.

Why wouldn't there be a chance for people to counterclaim, if I were lying about my role (which i am not)? We're in D1, Primate. They can easily COUNTERCLAIM D2, right?

It seems obvious to me that you want there to still be a significant amount of heat on me in regards to my claim. Why is that?

I rejected that idea because if I had to believe you as town, it means the near-inevitable lynch of someone I think is town, and I don't want that, it's especially jarring when up until this point I'd had you as one of main suspects as scum (mainly for doing absolutely ridiculous things like changing your vote in a huge way based on one post made by another guy whilst absolutely failing to take into account anything else the guy has ever done). Sorry. Factor it up to me taking too long to me finding the lesser of the two evils.

Anyway, I've got to go the bank now, if deadlines still up, I'll post the rest of my reread.

Unvote, Vote: Adele

, Mgm, CES, foolinc, Dragon Phoenix, [logicticus, Pooky, Talitha, Tamuz, Thesp, Xyzzy, Zindaras, VitaminR], [Cubsfan, Skruffs, IH, Dani Banani], Battle Mage, No Lynch, Gaspar

[Gaspar]

(For all intents and purposes, since we are truly dealing with two different players, I hereby request the following:

Gaspar: Please state at the beginning of each of your posts who it is we're talking to.

Players: If you are directing a question or comment at Gaspar, please state which head of the twoheaded monster you are asking.. for instance: Glorkspar or Primspar

@Primspar: What makes you think that Cubs is innocent? You seem to have a level of feeling on this that makes me uncomfortable.

Glorkspar here, though I can answer your request to Primspar because this is actually something that we had talked about over the weekend.

As Prim pointed out in his notes, Skruffs' play seems weird to those who aren't familiar with his posting/playstyle. Cubs has obviously indicated that he is familliar with Skruffs by stating that he doesn't see anything out of the ordinary. The thing is,

that is the exact same assessment that I had marked on Skruffs as I was reading the game

. People jumped all over Cubsf or sticking up for Skruffs, based on "he's trying to buddy up to a townie." This argument is terrible for two reasons:
1) Good reads on protown players exist. I played terribly for the most part early in LO2, but in that game, I made a list of some seven or eight players who I had a strong protown meta on. Guess what? Every single player on that list was protown.
2) It assumes that Skruffs is a townie. This is most alarming for the people who

first

attacked Skruffs and

then

went after Cubs for defending Skruffs. That is one of the reasons that we came to suspect you as one of our top choices, LmL. I got a very distinct "I'm going to attack Skruffs while his wagon is big, but as it's fading, Cubs is becoming the chic second option, so I'll switch there."

Based on the fact that A) Cubs felt smilarly to

both Primate and myself

regarding the entire Skruffs issue, and B) people seem to assume that because he's defending Skruffs, he's buddying up to Skruffs, I don't like the Cubswagon. At all.

Zindaras: Could you sum up your case against Xyzzy? I've

still

not had a chance to read the last few pages before we replaced into the game, and I definitely seem to be missing something.




Completing the list by re-inserting LmL near the bottom:

Unvote, Vote: Adele

, Mgm, CES, foolinc, Dragon Phoenix, [logicticus, Pooky, Talitha, Tamuz, Thesp, Xyzzy, Zindaras, VitaminR], [Cubsfan, Skruffs, IH, Dani Banani], Battle Mage, LoudmouthLee, No Lynch, Gaspar

[Gaspar]

2) It assumes that Skruffs is a townie. This is most alarming for the people who first attacked Skruffs and then went after Cubs for defending Skruffs. That is one of the reasons that we came to suspect you as one of our top choices, LmL. I got a very distinct "I'm going to attack Skruffs while his wagon is big, but as it's fading, Cubs is becoming the chic second option, so I'll switch there."

Do you believe that a no lynch is better than a cubsfan lynch?

No. I am not

that

convinced that Cubs is town. But seriously, this wagon is far worse than the ones that cropped up on you and even Skruffs and BM/Jeep.

Cubs steps in to defend Skruffs.
Cubs gets attacked for defending Skruffs.
Cubs defends himself.
Cubs gets attacked for not contributing enough.

Do you really think that there's a good, solid case against Cubs, Lee? Make it explicit yet concise.

[Gaspar]

What is your opinion of Adele anyway, LmL?


(Also, I'm currently reviewing Xyzzy's posts and making an analysis. In a few words: "Zindaras might have something here.")

[Gaspar]

Okay, looking at ZZ's (Xyzzy's) posts, I'm not all that impressed.

Post 0 is a flavor/intro post.
Post 1, votes PWS because he thinks the "happiness for the game starting is a scumtell" tell is dumb. Also adds Skruffs and LmL for no discernable reason.
Post 2: Defends DP.
Post 3: Mgm's posts are each "a little scummy," but passes it off as possible playstyle and calls it useless. Based on my opinion of Mgm, I could definitely see this as a weak distancing tactic. "He's scummy but not really" pings hard.
Post 4: Defends his analysis of Mgm, as Zindaras accuses him of a misrepresentation. ZZ basically says he's calling it like he sees it.
<--NOTE: He fails to address Skruffs' question to him in GamePost 201. Skruffs asked how he factored into ZZ's Post 1 -- the same thing I found curious at a casual glance just now.-->
Post 5: Um... that's just confusing.
Post 6: "Yeah, that last post didn't make much sense." I think what he's getting at is this: Defending rapid changes in stance such as LmL's Condorcet change is okay. Post 6 and the relevant part of Post 5 came in response to Zindie's GamePost 244.
Post 7: An attack on Skruffs for Yay Thesp (assumes Thesp to be protown because Thesp is good) is a misrepresentation. The second point (not going to analyze Adele because he likes playing with her) is actually somewhat reasonable, though that doesn't surprise me much coming from Skruffs.
Post 8: Basically invokes a variant of Too Townie against Skruffs, with a dash of admitted WIFOM tossed in. He says if he's scum, he's going to try to look protown, so Skruffs outing himself in a way that is admittedly scummy means nothing for Skruffs. Ironically, ZZ points out his own WIFOM at the start of his post, but uses this reasoning anyway.
Post 9: Was working on PBPA of LmL, lost it, internet went down, might rewrite it. Somebody explain to me how this is any different than posts made by PWS, TSQ, Cubs, or anybody else who has been accused of flying under the radar.
Post 10: Says that "nothing is ever not a huge issue" in response to my thoughts on whether Condorcet-voting helps the scums choose who to kill. I believe I already addressed this, and that I saw it as a genuine misreading of my post.
Post 11: Three things. First, he is voting for PWS and not Gaspar. Lazy and/or not paying attention. Second, PWS is still near the top of his list for unknown reasons. I doubt it's based on the "dumb" scumtell that ZZ pointed out in his first post, but if it is, that's awfully weak. Third, in Post 10, he said that he "didn't think [Gaspar] was scum for" his response to Tamuz, yet he still has PWS at the top of his suspicions.


Bottom line, I would like Xyzzy to explain all of his current top suspects much more clearly. He's thrown down a couple of votes, but I don't feel that he has adequately explained

ANY

of them. Instead, he has pseudo-defended and pseudo-distanced from Mgm (somebody I believe is scum), made a really bad attack on Skruffs right at the height of the Skruffswagon, and he's made a few nonposts. I am rather unimpressed.

[Gaspar]

I'm merely trying to point out that there is no especial reason TO lynch now

I know a rather large handful of players who would say "Information," and I don't disagree with that opinion. And I myself would say that No-Lynching D1 is at least on the Top 5 of the

Worst Things a Town Could Possibly Do

.

[Gaspar]

(All posts since Glork stepped in to respond to LmL have been made by Glork, including this one. Primate is, as far as I can tell, not around.)


Okay, BM.

Presumably, day play favors the town. It is the town's best (and oftentimes, only, in the case of mountainous games) method of eliminating scum. As a balancing factor, night play should favor the scum slightly. Between that and the "informed minority" aspect, a game should be properly balanced.

Assuming this is true, if we are inactive during the day portion of the game, we are handing a clear advantage to the scums.

As I stated, information is important. We've seen a wagon on you which led to claim, a wagon on LmL which led to claim, and two wagons which have not (yet) produced claims: The earlier one on Skruffs and the currentone on Cubsfan. The problem is, none of these give us any solid information. You are not confirmed town. LmL isn't confirmed town. We don't know anything definitive about Skruffs' or Cubs' role or alignment. As bodies hit the ground, we will eventually learn this information, but in the meantime, we will be making less informed decisions with our night actions.

Furthermore, the idea of waiting around to see what night actions occur is preposterous because the scums will take their action(s) based on what will suit

them

the most and/or what will help the town the

least

. It's for this kind of reason that, even though I don't like a Cubslynch, I would rather see him lynched over no-lynching. At least it's something that is supposedly supported (to an extent) by protown players.

[Gaspar]

Oh, that reminds me.

Mgm:

Have you read the links in the first post? Have you read them carefully? Why on earth did you ask "what are Dantes"?

LmL:

If you're around, I still want to hear your thoughts on Adele. If you're not, I want you to prepare something overnight so that I can hopefully see it tomorrow.

[Gaspar]

(Glork.)

Oh, okay. Yeah, I just misunderstood the point you were trying to make. I'm still curious/confused as to why you unvoted and advocated a No Lynch to begin with.

[Gaspar]

(Glork.)

Mgm, it makes ZERO sense as a scum ability. Once the duel had happened and nobody died, what do you think would be each player's alignment?

If Cubs were scum and failed to daykill LmL, does that mean LmL is scum? That's a silly ability.... if Cubs were lynched that day (which he was), he would have outed his scumbuddy.
If Cubs were scum and had daykilled LmL as town, he'd be outed for sure (for claiming he only kills if his opponent is scum). If Cubs were scum and killed LmL as scum, it would only make sense if there were multiple scumgroups. Not ruling that out as a possiblity, but I see that as something of a ridiculous stretch to conclude this early on.

I guess I could see the case where Cubs were an SK with an extra scumkilling daykill, but that seems like a bit of a stretch as well. And I would have to question whether you honestly could have believed that that was the case.


Needless to say, my top suspects remain approximately the same.

Vote: Adele

, [Mgm, Xyzzy], [other people], No Lynch, LoudmouthLee, Gaspar

[Gaspar]

(Glork.)

> : (
Somebody blocked me. That pisses me off.

Did you get some kind of message that your action was blocked?

Mmm, rolefishing.

FoS: foolinc

I feel obliged, however, to point out that Foolinc/Mgm are probably not scum together. The way Mgm attention-shifted from himself to Foolinc suggests a lack-of-connection.


It has already been pointed out, but

Minor FoS: Tamuz

for talking about Skruffs nonexistent "claim." At this point, I take it as a sign that he's probably just not paying any attention, but it's definitely noteworthy.


Also, I probably should have listed DP on my Condorcet voting list. And

IGMEOY: CES

for his most recent post. I don't want to see him get into a habit like he did in FTF. He seemed to clarify reasonably well D1, and while I more-or-less understand his reason for voting Skruffs, I:
A) Disagree with his conclusion (obviously); and
B) Would like to see him give thoughts on other players.

Unvote
Vote: Adele

, [Mgm, foolinc], DragonPhoenix, Tamuz, [other people], No Lynch, LoudmouthLee, Gaspar

[Gaspar]

EBWOP: CES, how likely do you find there to be two "Dayvig" roles in the game? Assuming Cubs was telling the truth about his ability (which seems to be the case given the duel post made by Grey), that makes him better than a strict Dayvig? Do you have a compelling reason to believe that it was a Dayvig, as opposed to a Day-SK?

[Gaspar]

(Glork. Also, IH, this is how I've been signing my posts for a while, and it's how I will continue to do so. I think it's clear enough.)

And I do the same, but do you do so in the beginning of the game?

Yes, definitely. Beginning of the game is the best time to get information by forcing players' hands. In my experience, most scumbaggos aren't terribly comfortable at the onset of the game... I've found that many of them take about half a day to settle into their roles, so hitting hard at the very BEGINNING of the game can be crucial.

1.If you think he's protown, why did you reveal this information? I'm unsure many would have connected MGM having a role from the book

Obviously I don't think he's protown -- he's second on my Condorcet list right now, and definitely one of my top suspects. However, A) Protown players in general shouldn't display their ignorance because it often reveals information about who they are (not); and B) On the chance that Mgm

is

actually protown, it would serve as a warning to him to quiet down and do his homework.


In other news, I agree with Dani's assessment that IH/LmL are probably both town. I find IH's most recent post to be rather genuine, and I've not seen much reason to suspect him at this point.

[Gaspar]

(Glork here. I need to get Primate to post his thoughts at some point... asked him to do so over the weekend, and got a quick "no worries" response, but he obviously hasn't done so since then.)


A quick check-in post... I'm still waiting to hear Adele give some thoughts on players. (And yes, I realize that I've not made much of an explicit case as to why I suspect her, other than the few vague things I mentioned yesterday. I myself am bogged down and have not found the time to make an explicit post.) I'm also interested to hear DP's updated perspective after yesterday.

The response to CES's "woo, daykill!" post has been interesting. A select handful of people have pointed out that they're not particularly fond of it, but nobody's actually made a move on CES. I almost get the feeling that scums are waiting to see if anything will actually come of it.

Random note: Pooky got bugged about Logic "having a hard time reading people," yet he never acknowledged that Dani said effectively the exact same thing in Post 690. Any particular reason for this, Pooksters?

Zindaras: You've made a "note to self" to look at both Adele and Dani, but Adele is listed at one full notch higher than Dani. Before re-reading, what distinguishes Adele from Dani on your most recent list?

Mgm's claim is uninspiring... however, in my experience, scums don't often breadcrumb Townie. I feel slightly less confident in lynching him now than I did before his claim, but I'm still none too pleased about his play/suspicions.

I find the Tamuz/Skruffs debate distracting and uninteresting... but I'm not really getting any scumvibes from either player.



No changes to my list as of now; I'd like to see some people (Adele, DP, Tally, VitR) come in and post extended thoughts on current events.

[Gaspar]

(Glork.)

Pooky: Yes, I see that now. I more or less skimmed the most recent posts because I was trying to lay down some gut thoughts/reactions. My fault.

I am somewhat baffled by the ordering of your list, Foolinc. Why is Dani at an even level with me? Why are IH/Mgm at a lower level? What do you think of LoudmouthLee's claim and his subsequent behavior?
What do you think of the Tamuz/Skruffs discussion? How about Thesp? CES?


...an awful lot of trains of thought so far today, and yet Fool chooses to use the

kills

as his primary basis for suspicion (and under the assumption that the same mafia group killed both BM and Xyzzy)? That seems a bit off to me.

(Preview Edit: It seems that all Fool did was modify his end-of-day VC from yesterday by bumping up the people who were mutually suspected by the dead players. While it shows consistency, I have to question Foolinc's failure to take into account any of the discussions today, as I just indicated above.)

[Gaspar]

And today's discussions DID go into the process. Skruffs had his softclaim. The events between Mgm and IH also played a part in them getting bumped up (I was close to moving logicticus up as well), and the fact that LML is grouped with my likely townie group and not by himself inbetween that group and no lynch or even on the other side of the no lynch should have tipped you off that I have some suspisions about him, even with his role claim and the whole duel.

Okay, let's attack this point-by-point:
1. Skruffs did his softclaim, but what are your exact thoughts on it? You just now brought it up without actually

saying

anything about it.
2. Again -- Reasons? What about the discussion bothers you about Mgm, IH, and Logic?
3.. Almost logic.... so you suspect IH for being suspicious of Logic, but you suspect Logic and almost bumped him up on your list. Care to elaborate on this one?
4. The LmL thing is interesting. You have suspicions of LmL, but you've got IH (who is the only other person, as far as I can tell, actively going after LmL's claim) "bumped up" and near the top of your list. Do you suspect busing? How does the LmL/IH debate affect your suspicions? This

also

seems inconsistent to me.

Also, you failed to address my questions regarding Skruffs/Tamuz, Thesp, and CES.

And the reason you are on the same level as Danni is because I did augment my old list and while you were moved up I did see any reason to move Danni.

So what you're saying is that even though everyone has posted today, none of your other suspicions have shifted at all?

And no, I don't think that they were both killed by the same scum group, however I do believe that they both were on the right track in some fashion or else they wouldn't have been killed.

CES already pointed out why this is flawed.
BM claimed to be an information role. Those, regardless of whether they are "on the right track" are always threats to the scums and instantly become viable nightkill targets.
Xyzzy was being run up, which indicates that his death likelly came from somebody who A) vigilante; or B) wants us to think they are a vigilante.

Unvote
Vote: foolinc

, [Adele, Mgm], DragonPhoenix, [other people], [Dani Banani, IH, Skruffs], No Lynch, LoudmouthLee, Gaspar

[Gaspar]

(Glork.)

It's not the fact you said you were blocked. It's:

I'm not a fan of the soft claim in general because it points out that you are a powerrole which will make you a target of scum, while not giving information to the town.

Erm... this logic is flawed.
1) He might not be power. Though they are relatively rare, there

are

roleblockers whose targets are told that they are blocked, regardless of whether they have an active ability or not.
2) Unless I am mistaken, your reason for suspicion assumes that Skruffs' claim of "power role" is legit. If you believe that he gave information about his role to the scums, then wouldn't that mean that he's not scum? In contrast, if you believe his scum, why would his claim of "I was roleblocked" have to do with anything? Do you believe that he is scum with power and that he was roleblocked? If so, why would he choose to share that with the town?


I think foolinc slipped up here, though I'm not certain. There's something here that I can't quite articulate properly... a presque vu of sorts. But there's definitely something wrong with this line of thought.

[Gaspar]

(Glork.)

Oh my god. LmL is exactly right in that we should

ABSOLUTELY NOT

be discussing why BattleMage died last night.

I could think of probably a dozen different possibilities. The fact that people keep coming into the thread and suggesting one or two possibilites gives off an awful lot of info.


Mgm, I came to the same conclusion as LmL: That it seemed like you were fishing. If you're town, you are almost certainly doing the scums' work for them by making people give hints about their roles. If you're scum, I think that you were a bit crude, but you seem to have gotten responses from a few players already... and if you're already going down in flames, I could definitely see you blatantly trying to squeeze information from us. You may not have definitively outed a Doctor, but you have caused players to label themselves as very likely "Not-Doctors," which is just as bad if the scums are looking for a Doc to kill.

[Gaspar]

....obligatory post by Glork.

I'm still okay with the pressure on Foolinc, Mgm, and Adele. I will also concede that Dani's mentioning of the Secret Words is a bit odd, but I maintain that the rest of his play seems pretty reasonable.

I expect the people who have bee making useless check-in posts to actually contribute something substantial very soon. Making posts like the one Zindaras just made is really nothing more than mere lurking, and it does bother me somewhat, and it makes me wonder if there are scums riding out the day to see what happens.

[Gaspar]

*pats Thesp's head condescendingly*

It's okay to be imperfect, Thesp. Even I was imperfect once.

[Gaspar]

Incidentally, Thesp, could you articulate your suspicion of Dani? A brief skim doesn't turn up very much, and I'm not seeing the "case" against him.


Thanks in advance.

[Gaspar]

(Glork.)

@Thesp,
i already gave my reasoning for bringing up the secret word... Mgm hit it right on the head when he said

He obviously had a secret word. It's quite hard to be the first to ask about them if you don't know they exist...

your attacks on me feel a little strained, almost like you're looking for a reason to make me look suspicious... i wouldn't be surprised if you're a lyncher w/ me as a target...

This looks bad to me.... the fact that you would come to the conclusion that Thesp is a lyncher with you as a target makes me think this is more OMGUS and less "you're scum reaching for an attack on another player."

Is there any reason you believe Thesp to be a lyncher specifically? Do you think his D1 play would indicate that such is the case?

In other news, I find the "how useful is nightkill analysis" debate to be surprisingly boring. (In recent past, I'd side with Zindaras that it's too unreliable to use properly, but I've shifted to a more "It really depends on the specific game situation, and neither "it's useful" or "it's useless" generalization is particularly accurate.) Point being, I'd rather be looking for scum than debating game theory.

That's the thing - I think you're lying about your reasoning for bringing up the secret word. I agree I think you have a secret word. Was I unclear on that point? Asking

in the way you did

makes a heck of a lot of sense if you're scum with a secret word, and afraid that other people might not have one - testing the waters to see what comes up.

If that's true, why test the waters? Keeping his mouth shut would be by far the safer option if he didn't know it was safe to talk about it. What if scum was the only one with secret words? Asking about it would make it suicide.

This is a much more reasonable defense than the "I think you're a lyncher" OMGUS that Dani provided.

...and then I find Thesp's response to be really bad. Now I think he

is

reaching. In fact, I would posit that the first person to bring up Secret Words would be more likely town, since they would theoretically be willing to discuss it with

ZERO

reservations about it getting them in trouble.


IH, I say this only because I think you're town and that you're playing really carelessly right now.

STOP GIVING INFORMATION TO THE SCUMS.

Your post 868 gave out information on two different accounts (that none of the non-counterclaimers are probably the real Count/Dantes), and that your role is a person from Fresno and not a character from the book.
For somebody who was so disgruntled with Skruffs spewing information at the start of the day, you seem to have just soft-claimed yourself. Tack on your theorizing about BM's death last night, and you've given more information about who you are/aren't. For the love of Pete,

think

before you post.

MrBuddyLee replaces Adele.

....oh boy. This ought to be interesting.

In the meantime, DP's continued active lurking (yes, I know people have real lives -- my limited access will be coming up starting next week) still disgruntles me.



No changes to my Condorcet because I'm lazy, but if I made a change, I'd just bump Thesp up a little bit.

[Gaspar]

Okay, well that would change the validity of your argument. I didn't know that your response was based on experience with Thesp as a lyncher. I had concluded that it was "You're going after me hard, but you're wrong so you must be scum" which would indeed have been OMGUS.

[Gaspar]

(Glork, obv.)

Skruffs, in the same backwards kind of way I cleared you from suspicion in Calvin&Hobbes Mafia, I think that IH's behavior regarding this matter is an indication that he's probably protown, even if he is severely misguided. I sense no maliciousness in his theory. Also, you should note that IH

does

suspect Mgm (he is currently voting Mgm). But it iis failure to notice the inconsistency with LmL's role, the duel result, and his current theory that makes me think he's just not got his head on straight.

[Gaspar]

(Glork.)

MBL, why do you insist on posting selectively when you read? You said this:

gaspar wants LML dead, final answer (lee just claimed) fos: gaspar

...yet you fail to acknowledge that no more than two posts later, LmL points out to Primate that he claimed, and Primate acknowledges that he missed the claiming post.

Do you actually think that Primate would want to lynch LmL in spite of the claim?
Do you think that he lied about missing the claim?
Do you think that Primate would pretend to miss the claim, hoping to push through a lynch on LmL anyway?


Total weaksauce.



On another note: I'll have my indeterminate period of Limited Access starting tomorrow, as I will be moving out in less than 24 hours, staying a week and a half with various friends, and moving into my new apartment (for which I have not yet sought internet services) on Oct 6. I'll try to post to avoid replacement, but I'm really counting on Primate to actually do something. If Primate continues to stay disappeared, I might talk to Mith about seeking a temporary replacement for up to two weeks.

[Gaspar]

Under most circumstances, I don't think I'd necessarily see it as either laziness or scumminess, LmL; it seems to just be part of MrScumbuddyLee's playstyle to omit significant details in order to push his agenda. I will say, though, that given my past suspicions of Adele (bad sheeping, active lurking, general avoidance of inquiries in her direction), an omission such as the one I pointed out does

not

leave a good taste in my mouth.

[Gaspar]

gaspar, I added that line because i found it bizarre that primspar would miss such an important event 2-3 hours before he voted. i didn't miss the claim, i didn't miss the retraction ("oops"). i find it mildly scummy.

In case you haven't noticed, Primate has been neither active nore attentive throughout this game. He posted his notes at my request, because I thought it was important to get both of our opinions out there (sortof like a mason group all wrapped into one role). I can't say for sure, but I would guess that Primate didn't even read the most recent posts because all he did was post his notes from Pages 1-10 and state that suspicion of LmL was one of the few things that he and I had agreed on.


Could you explain why exactly missing the post or the "oops" reaction is "midly scummy" to you?
And again, what did you think Primate would have hoped to accomplish ether by pretending to miss the post or by stating that he missed the post?
If you were a protown player in that same situation, what would your response to LmL's "Hey idiot, I claimed" post be?

[Gaspar]

Primate didn't post a Condo before he missed, saw, and acknowledged missing LmL's claim. The only Condo he posted didn't even have LmL listed as an option because he took LmL away from the top of the list. Get your facts straight, MBL.

[Gaspar]

On an unrelated note, a question for you, MBL:
If Foolinc is lynched today as town, what kind of player on the "avoiding/letting slide the issue" list would you be inclined to believe is likely scum?
If Foolinc is lynched today as scum, what kind of player on the "avoiding/letting slide the issue" list would you be inclined to believe is likely scum?


This whole "let's lynch Foolinc then look at the people who avoided the issue" thing reeks of going for a double mislynch, and it's giving me butterflies about a Foolinc lynch.

[Gaspar]

(Glork.)

I find it odd that LmL is more certain that IH is scum, because I feel the exact opposite. My past experiences with ThespScum are Scrubs (a bit of an anomoly given VitR was wrongly outed immediately and I got Thesp to kill himself a night later) and modding Board Games Mafia (in which I barely recall Thesp putting suspicion on his scumbuddies). I don't think that his attacks on IH are indicative of a scum pairing, and I'd like to hear LmL's take on Thesp/IH interactions and on whether he feels IH could be soloscum or part of a secondary scumgroup.

[Gaspar]

MBL needs to die today.

Well, this is something I (Glork) can at least agree with. I'll re-read the end of yesterday and make a Condorcet later, if Primate hasn't posted by then. In the meantime...

Vote: MBL

[Gaspar]

Prim:

If you take a look at Verbose 2, mith's last game, you'll note that (unless I'm reading it wrong), there was an Italian Mafia, and the Italian Mafia were the only scumteam.

Mith's last game was mememeet, and that had 2 scumgroups plus a bunch of neutrals, as did the big copgame, so you can't really say that mith prefers one type of model based on that game. That said, mith does have that whole 'scumgroups have it too easy nowadays' thing going on, so either way is plausible. The nightkillings could also go either way at this point.

*snip* as does the "agreement" with Thespscum where the statement about lurkers could have EASILY been made without mentioning Thesp. Check it out.

Do you mean the argument re: secret words? Yeah, I don't get why DB jumped to the conclusion of lyncher either. Thesp's argument wasn't especially vehement at all.

re: Tally. She's good enough to fool me, so I'm wary, but I don't especially think she's scummy.

I'll try to stick to a post a day from now on. The fact I'm not keeping in the game is the main thing encouraging me to lurk.

[Gaspar]

ah, ok then.

[Gaspar]

Well, that's just idiotic, LmL. If there

is

a poisoner SK out there, you've just handed him his next victim. If you're lying scum, you'll try to weasel your way out of it by asserting that you yourself are being set up.

[Gaspar]

Well then, how about we try something... Considering I've not yet made a Condorcet, I'm willing to move my vote to Grey for the time being.

Part of me wonders if Grey can't be voted outright, but

can

be lynched if he is the Condorcet winner on a day without a regular lynch. If that's the case, we'd have to split our votes approximately evenly while all listing Grey as our second choice. Still, I guess we'll learn if we can vote Grey outright at the top of the next page...

Unvote MBL
Vote: Mr. Grey

[Gaspar]

EBWOP: Glork, btw.

[Gaspar]

You're kidding, right?

Presumably, Grey/mith knows the setup to the game. Are you arguing that, if Grey is has a role within the game, it would be

completely broken

to have that role be protown. The role, as LmL has already explained, really only makes senes if it's an independent (Serial Killer, possibly Survivor) role. The fact that Xyzzy was the one poisioned gives us

no

benefit right now. I cannot fathom that you'd want to keep alive a role that is almost certainly not protown.



My vote will be going right back onto you once this whole thing is sorted out.

[Gaspar]

EBWOP: "I would argue that..." Sorry, I changed the wording of part of that sentence and didn't fix the other part.

[Gaspar]

Prim:

You're kidding, right?

Presumably, Grey/mith knows the setup to the game. Are you arguing that, if Grey is has a role within the game, it would be

completely broken

to have that role be protown. The role, as LmL has already explained, really only makes senes if it's an independent (Serial Killer, possibly Survivor) role. The fact that Xyzzy was the one poisioned gives us

no

benefit right now. I cannot fathom that you'd want to keep alive a role that is almost certainly not protown.



My vote will be going right back onto you once this whole thing is sorted out.

Disagree. I've seen modpersonas that were protown. I don't see any harm in it, assuming the modpersona can't actually post, and can't do anything that capitalizes on his extra knowledge. (The one I saw interacted with a couple of roles in the game, could only vote for a person that another player told him to vote for, and couldn't post.)

I mean, hell, I'm just about to run NPC mafia, where I take on over a dozen personas, so I'm definitely assuring you that it is

possible

to come up with these things as town.

If he's killing people, though, he's operating to a pattern. And I don't think a pro-town vig persona that operates to a pattern is a good idea at all. It is effectively screwing over a town for not being able to speculate that the mod is a person in the game

and

not being able to figure out what that pattern is. Also, that kind of indiscriminate killing is acceptable in a SK, but is rarely acceptable in a vig. (I'd also say that the kill method is a little weird for a vig, but it's not totally implausible).

Honestly, this is an incredibly odd line of questioning. I'm a teacher of English. Is "lacing into somebody" such an odd idiom?

I'd call it fairly peculiar, but I've got no idea what your idiolect is.

[Gaspar]

Prim:

I'm wondering though if mith will just include anything on the votecounts if they are voted for. I vaguely recall a similar argument in mememeet mafia, though my memory ain't what it used to be.

[Gaspar]

(Glork.)

Prim:

You're kidding, right?

Presumably, Grey/mith knows the setup to the game. Are you arguing that, if Grey is has a role within the game, it would be

completely broken

to have that role be protown. The role, as LmL has already explained, really only makes senes if it's an independent (Serial Killer, possibly Survivor) role. The fact that Xyzzy was the one poisioned gives us

no

benefit right now. I cannot fathom that you'd want to keep alive a role that is almost certainly not protown.



My vote will be going right back onto you once this whole thing is sorted out.

Disagree. I've seen modpersonas that were protown. I don't see any harm in it, assuming the modpersona can't actually post, and can't do anything that capitalizes on his extra knowledge. (The one I saw interacted with a couple of roles in the game, could only vote for a person that another player told him to vote for, and couldn't post.)

I mean, hell, I'm just about to run NPC mafia, where I take on over a dozen personas, so I'm definitely assuring you that it is

possible

to come up with these things as town.

Okay, Primate, in all fairness, I have also seen protown "modpersonae" before. MBL in Snakes on a Plane was the director and couldn't talk, but I think he got to see all night actions or something. But in my experiences, those kinds of roles are fairly rare. I still disagree with the

likelihood

of him being protown, and at this time, I am choosing to see Grey (assuming he is in fact in the game as a poisoner) as almost certainly a threat.

I actually have a few theories/ideas that I would like to explore over the course of the next gameday or two, in order to hopefully out more information about mith/Grey. I already told you (Primate) about the most relevant one.

[Gaspar]

(Glork.)

The Mr Grey thing is a silly distraction, IMO.

Do you feel that Mr. Grey's inclusion in a Condorcet list was a mistake on the mod's part? If so, I would

gladly

like some explanation. If not, I don't see how you can call it a mere "distraction." Do you feel that it was an intentional attempt on the mod's part to mislead us in some way? Or is there something that I'm just missing here?

[Gaspar]

How can Mr Grey's inclusion in a condorcet list be a mistake on the mod's part? The players make the lists, right? I'm not even sure when Mr Grey first popped up, but I assume a PLAYER included him, and Mr Grey, conscientious mod that he is, simply followed the player's wishes.

The

VAST

majority of times I've seen players try to vote or take actions against the mod, they were ignored or told that they cannot do so. In fact, I don't think that I have

EVER

seen a mod include himself in a vote count, night action choice, or any similar list simply because the player expressed a desire to take action against the mod.

Nevertheless, this is one of the things I have already discussed with Primate, and as I indicated earlier, I

am

willing to test a couple more theories. Once we've moved into the Concordet stage of vote counts, either Primate or I will try voting MBL, Mr. Grey, and somebody who has never at any point been in the game (say, petroleumjelly). We'll see how the Condorcet list looks then. If PJ shows up on it, I'll accept your theory as being true. If not, Grey is a dead man. Today.

What I find disturbing about you, Tally, is not that you think he may have done so 'out of courtesy' of the players, but the fact that you're not even

interested

in seeing if he could be an SK. If you're a protown player, your job is to eliminate all threats to the town. A possible threat has emerged, and you're gunning down that possibility as a mere "distraction." That kind of attitude stirkes me as patently scummy.

[Gaspar]

Prim:

If I were scum, Gaspar, and I thought i had found a possible SK, or someone that I could convince others was an SK, I would be following it like a hound. A bit like you are.
FOS: Gaspar

I know the question wasn't really directed at me, but are you implying that if you were town and you had found a possible SK, you

wouldn't

be following it like a hound?

I think the mod is an unlikely SK too, but I've discussed this with Glork and he's fairly convinced about it so *shrug*

Tags removed from quoted material. - Mod

[Gaspar]

If I were scum, Gaspar, and I thought i had found a possible SK, or someone that I could convince others was an SK, I would be following it like a hound. A bit like you are.
FOS: Gaspar

As it is I see two FAR better candidates to be discussing right now and other people are dismissing them to talk about the MOD, who isn't even a player for crissakes. What are you trying to achieve here? Go ahead, lynch the mod, likely get us a no-lynch and a lost day. Whatevs.

That's silly, Tally. I've made it explicit that my current intent is to first find out if Grey is actually a player in the game. If PJ turns up in the Condorcet, I'll drop this whole thing and we won't be wasting the day. If PJ isn't in the Condorcet, I will hold my "Grey is SK" theory as true and gun for his lynch as hard as possible. Why? Well....

....to get into some general mafia theory, I would like to point out that, especially early in a game, offing an SK is one of the best things a town could possibly do. It is precisely MBL's attitude of "let's leave him around for a while" and your attitude of "it's 'distracting'" that bothers me, because *IF* he is the SK and we choose *NOT* to worry about him,

he will continue killing players beyond our own control

. I'm not really sure where you got the idea that more antitown kills are better, but offing an SK as early as possible is a HUGE boost to a town.

My entire point is that there is an as-of-yet-unexplained (and very unusual) happening in this game, and that it's our job to find out the nature behind that happening. I generally call that "playing Mafia," and . Maybe you really do think that the Grey thing is nothing and that there are "better candidates" out there. I simply don't understand that kind of reasoning. Scum is scum, and if you've got an opportunity to explore to find scum, you'd best be taking that opportunity.

Tags removed from quoted material. - Mod

[Gaspar]

lolsimulpost. The latter one was Glork, obvobv.


And yes, Primate disagrees with me. I am very unhappy with him right now.

[Gaspar]

(Glork.)

See, I disagree with you there. I think that, if Grey is in the game, he is a Serial Killer with the following qualities:

• He cannot post
  
• He knows the game setup

I also hold the following possible theories regarding Grey's role:

• It is possible that he cannot be outright voted for -- this is being tested by my current vote for him, and will be tested upon a Condorcet vote for him later
  
• It is possible that he may choose to forfeit his kill in favor of being lynch/vote-immune. It might explain why he chose not to kill D1 and why he hasn't killed today. It would also explain why he did not show up in a Condorcet until after Xyzzy was killed (this is assuming that this fact is accurate; I have yet to actually verify LmL's comments regarding this and have taken them at face value up to this point)

Yes, I have put an awful lot of thought into this. I really do think that it's important to get rid of a killing role, and probably an entire killing "faction." I'm pretty sure that I've stated two things about having multiple scum factions in mafia games: 1) Mods should never rely on crosskills to balance a setup; 2) Towns should never rely on crosskills to balance numbers out during a game. The latter is what applies here, and your "he might kill scum" insinuation is, IMO, a very foolish attitude to take because it is indirectly putting

OUR

chances of success into the hands of an

ANTITOWN PLAYER

.

[Gaspar]

EBWOP: That was directed at Tally, not IH.

IH: I believe I already mentioned Thesp in BoardGames. He shied away from going after his partners a bit and focused more on attacking townies. I would guess that the people that Thesp went directly after are significantly less likely to be his scumbuddies.

[Gaspar]

Then I'll vote for Violet. Or Jade. Heck, I'll vote for Violet, Jade,

AND

PJ.

[Gaspar]

Quick check-in post by Glork. I was out of commission all weekend (various complications which ultimately resulted in me spending the entire weekend out of town), and I've only skimmed recent posts. Interesting to note that I actually managed to vote for Grey. Time to test the next part of this exploration.

Also, because some people apparently think I'm trying to swing a no-lynch, I'm going to ask for some clarification on this whole matter:

Unvote
Vote: petroleumjelly

Please see the Post Content section of the rules regarding asking questions of the Mod. - Mod

[Gaspar]

Aha. No vote for petroleumjelly. That strikes out one possibility, but we still need to check for other present-bodied characters. I suppose it's time for yet another test vote:

Vote: Violet

, Mr. Grey, MrBuddyLee, Jade, Talitha, [CES, Sarcastro, Dragon Phoenix, logicticus, PookyTheMagicalBear, Tamuz, VitaminR, Zindaras], [LoudmouthLee, IH, foolinc], No Lynch, Gaspar

[Gaspar]

(Glork.)

fos: Gaspar

Can you please explain why I'm your top suspect?

Absolutely.

It starts with Adele's play, which I feel is pretty well-documented. I have already talked about my dislike of her. I also realize that you have said "yeah, I don't get it, but I'm not her," and I don't like

that

response either. Even if you disagree with or do not understand her behavior, you are still accountable for it. As far as I can recall, you've barely made any effort whatsoever to explain where she might have come from. The vast majority of competent replacements for scummy players at least try to offer some objective, protown rationale for what their predecessors might have been thinking. Your downplaying of Adele's play strikes me as very shady. I distinctly feel that you were just trying to sweep Adele under the rug, hoping nobody would notice.

I didn't like your initial Condorcet. No Lynch, then a dead player. I realize that you said it was temporary and you were still reading, and blahblah, but it just doesn't make sense to me at all.

Also, while FoSing me for "hammering on irrelevant issues at T-48" (I would argue that criticizing part of your game review and your choice of votes were both perfectly relevant -- another point, that you seemed to want to downplay my attention on you as being), you never managed to answer a significant mark I had against you:

On an unrelated note, a question for you, MBL:
If Foolinc is lynched today as town, what kind of player on the "avoiding/letting slide the issue" list would you be inclined to believe is likely scum?
If Foolinc is lynched today as scum, what kind of player on the "avoiding/letting slide the issue" list would you be inclined to believe is likely scum?


This whole "let's lynch Foolinc then look at the people who avoided the issue" thing reeks of going for a double mislynch, and it's giving me butterflies about a Foolinc lynch.

You had stated that you felt people were "trying to slide by" but you didn't know which way. The way I interpreted it (and correct me if I'm wrong)... if he turned up town, people would be "sliding by" and voting for him. If he turned up scum, people would be "sliding by" and avoiding lynching him.

It certainly strikes me as being a ploy you'd make if there are two mafia groups. While we don't yet have anything definite regarding that matter, I've filed it away for further use. Either way, I am especially wary of the "mislynch Foolinc, mislynch somebody who was voting him lazily" ploy, as that's exactly the kind of thing I'd expect from you.



This wasn't one of the reasons I had suspected you, but this comment makes me curious:

I lynch people who are lazy and who lack curiosity, because those traits bely the fact that you aren't uncertain about alignments for the most part.

What exactly is it about a lazy or "uncurious" player that makes you think they "aren't uncertain about alignments"? I see lazy players all the time who are protown -- probably at least as often as I see lazy scums. Could you explain how you differentiate between LazyTown and LazyScum?

You spent an awful lot of time asking people questions about Foolinc (town), Mgm (town), Skruffs (town), and Dani (whom I believe is town). Yet you seemed hesitant to give your actual opinions of many players beyond your initial reread of the game. While I appreciate the "make other people talk" sentiment, much of the middle portion of your posts is just you asking questions without giving a single actual opinion of anybody.

You did start off D2 with a reasonable listing of your thoughts on select players, but you have once again resorted to asking a few questions and commenting on recent discussions without contributing much of your own personal opinions. You've yet to vote today, and only recently have you begun to defend LoudmouthLee, whom you labeled scummy in that start-of-day read.

Basically, I get the impression that you're asking select questions to/about select players to direct discussion and appear to contribute without actually giving any of your own personal input. That's a pretty major tell in my book.





PREVIEW EDIT: Pooky, what are your thoughts on players not named LoudmouthLee?

[Gaspar]

Gaspar why did you wait so long to start testing and checking off those options?

Honestly it was your idea and so easily checked that you could have done it at any time.

In case you didn't notice, Grey didn't start doing Condorcet listings until today, in accordance with the rules of the game, as cited in this post. Thus, I had to wait for Grey's voting updates each page before I could move my vote elsewhere.

[Gaspar]

The vast majority of competent replacements for scummy players at least try to offer some objective, protown rationale for what their predecessors might have been thinking.

This is awkward

I think it would be, except there was not clearly defined case against PWS. He fell behind on his reading early and then requested replacement due to time commitments. In fact, as indicated when I made my case againg Xyzzy towards the end of D1, people were just kinda lumping him towards the upper third of their suspicion lists without really saying much concrete about him. If anything, that's the sign of scums going after a weak sheep.

[Gaspar]

I would imagine, Pooky, that he said "Mercedes" because it was obvious which character he was talking about. You're really,

really

reaching, I think.

FoS: Pooksies

[Gaspar]

I don't see how that makes any difference at all.

[Gaspar]

EBWOP: And no, it wasn't exactly as it appears in our role PMs. It says "[bold]Role Name:[/bold] <<rolename>>"

It's obvious he didn't copy/paste anything, because it didn't have the accent, but I'm guessing he probably was more concerned with getting his claim posted quickly and not worried about formatting or writing the full name. Does that seem so unreasonable to you?

[Gaspar]

EBWOP Again: Oh wait, he

did

say it with the accents. You're just the lazy one. Also, he italicized it, and the next line said "Role Type: Searching Townie."

Now I'm just confused. Pooky, could you explain what exactly leads you to believe that his claim was fabricated?

[Gaspar]

Yes. Why?

[Gaspar]

This vote should be pretty self-explanatory:

Unvote
Vote: Mr. Grey

, MrBuddyLee, Talitha, PookyTheMagicalBear, [CES, Sarcastro, Dragon Phoenix, logicticus, Tamuz, VitaminR, Zindaras], [LoudmouthLee, IH, foolinc], No Lynch, Gaspar

[Gaspar]

I think the whole Mr. Grey as player discussion is a useless tangent. While I can't say I know mith's modding style, I don't think he'd use this kind of role, mainly because I think it's just plain silly.

and at this time, I am choosing to see Grey (assuming he is in fact in the game as a poisoner) as almost certainly a threat.

I think these are dangerous assumptions to make. I also think Glork is being too hasty with assumign that Mr. Grey must be scum if he is a part of the game. The comparison to MBL in Snakes on a Plane is definitely unwarranted, as MBL wasn't the mod in that game.

Just a qiuck note: I find it amusing that you're critcizing the MBL-SoaP reference, which suggests taht godlike

protown

roles exist, while simultaneously criticizing my conclusion that Grey is probably scum.

Incidentally, what do you think of the fact that Grey can be voted for, but no other flavor-based characters or nonplayers can be voted for?

foolinc: did not buy his doctor claim fully yesterday, but two scum groups could indeed have relied on the other to take care of him.

Do you really think that any scumteam would expect another scumteam after the events of Night 1?

Sure. Say Group 1 killed Battle Mage while Group 2 attempted to kill Loudmouthlee. Neither group killed Fool, yet Group 2 would know that there's a different killing group out there. Furthermore, as people have already suggested, knowing the size of one's scumgroup might lead towards the belief that there are two scumgroups based on numbers.

Note to self: This is a sign that, if there are two scumgroups, Zindaras is either playacting very well or he's not scum. If there's one group, I think the chances of him being scum increase slightly.

Foolinc (town)

Why are you so sure about this?

Because it's obvobv.

[Gaspar]

Incidentally, what do you think of the fact that Grey can be voted for, but no other flavor-based characters or nonplayers can be voted for?

I think it's odd, but I don't think we should rush into lynching him. If we can interact with him via votes, then we can probably interact with him via roles as well.

Okay, allow me to rephrase:
If you had to choose right now, would you posit that Grey is scum, protown, or a red herring?

Note to self: This is a sign that, if there are two scumgroups, Zindaras is either playacting very well or he's not scum. If there's one group, I think the chances of him being scum increase slightly.

Wait, what?

The two scumgroups thing makes sense because your response makes it look like you didn't think about things from a "two scumgroup" perspective.
Looking at the "one scumgroup" thing, I'm really not sure how I got you being slightly more scummy, but it made sense in my head. My thought process was roughly as follows:
If there is only one scumgroup, the number of scums in their group probably makes sense

Because it's obvobv.

It is obvobv, yes, but I'm curious as to why you think it's obvious.

*shrug*
I think the role and name check out well enough, I buy Foolinc's explanation as to why he targeted LmL, none of the reactions from other players appaer to be of the "protecting a scumbuddy" nature, and Foolinc would be suicidal to claim Doctor as a Serial Killer. Based on observations and overall impressions, I would be absolutely floored if he turned out to be protown. He's pretty much confirmed in my eyes, even if he's not technically 100% confirmed all-around.

Removed broken tags. - Mod

[Gaspar]

Oh dear god. I'm in a meeting right now, and I skipped outlining my thought process because I got distracted. <.<
My thought process was roughly as follows:

• If there is only one scumgroup, the number of scums in their group probably makes sense from a balance perspective.
  
• If there are two scumgroups, the number of scums in each group almost certainly makes sense from a balance/numbers perspective.
  
• Zindaras' claim, that the scums couldn't possibly believe two scumgroups based on N1's happenings, fails miserably fo the "two scumgroups numbers" hold (and especially for a scumgroup which targeted notBattleMage
  
• Zindaras' assumption could be based on the existence of one "large" scumgroup, which could imply that he knows of the existence of one "large" scumgroup

Looking back on it, I don't think that's exactly right. Maybe I'm just confusing myself.

Removed broken tags. - Mod

[Gaspar]

I'd just like to point out that less than half of the town is even voting, and we're over halfway through the day.


CES, foolinc, IH, logicticus, MrBuddyLee, Pooky, Tamuz, and Zindaras: Is there

any

reason that you're holding back your votes? Are you happy with the "sit around and wait, and then leave less than 48 hours to allow for adjustments pending a significant claim" approach that has been prevelant during the first two days?

[Gaspar]

mrbuddylee could u reply 2 my case against u and post some of ur own opinions plz and explain y u havent voted yet??

kthxbai



ps o yea die 2 lolol

[Gaspar]

MBL, please respond to my posts about you and directed toward you.

@ CES: We have scums to lynch. Their names are MBL and Tally. And Mr. Grey.
PS: Grey, kill whichever one of Tally/MBL we don't lynch, please. Thanks. <3


Note to self: Go find out why DP slipped on your suspicion list.

[Gaspar]

(Glork, obv.)

Even if you disagree with or do not understand her behavior, you are still accountable for it. As far as I can recall, you've barely made any effort whatsoever to explain where she might have come from. The vast majority of competent replacements for scummy players at least try to offer some objective, protown rationale for what their predecessors might have been thinking. Your downplaying of Adele's play strikes me as very shady. I distinctly feel that you were just trying to sweep Adele under the rug, hoping nobody would notice.

LOL, why would I waste my time doing this? "Hi, I'm replacing Battle Mage, here's a DSM-IV eval that should explain his post history."

Because it's part of the responsibility of being a replacement. In the past, I had

always

been asked to respond to any reasonable, outstanding allegations directed towards my predecessors. That's part of the job description, and you seem to have skirted it entirely up until now (and you're only now responding because I've hounded you to reply to me).

you never managed to answer a significant mark I had against you:
foolinc, double mislynch, blahblahblah

Since when is it "going for a double mislynch" to point out who's obfuscating the most relevant issues in a game? I'm actually going to go back to D1/D2 right now and see what Thesp was talking about when townies and LML were being run up and forced to claim or being lynched:

(oh look, thesp was dicking around about secret words and plum pudding while foolinc was forced to claim and mgm was lynched)

Again, you're mitigating the issue here. You were calling Foolinc the "elephant in the room" and demanding his lynch while accusing non-commentors of either protecting him or letting him hang.

What does this do? It tries to

force

everybody to talk about

one

specific topic -- Foolinc. The way I see it, you wanted all of the attention on Foolinc, so that when he got lynched (likely as town), you could set up somebody else for the next day. It's too bad for you that your carefully laid plans went to waste.

Could you explain how you differentiate between LazyTown and LazyScum?

It's not easy, but ultimately LazyTown has at least a mild curiosity about alignments and LazyScum does not. Sometimes it's possible to smell the difference. Do you really not do this yourself or are you just making hay?

I do attempt to differentiate for myself, MBL, but we all have different standards and perspectives. I was merely curious as to what your own personal perspective was. That's why I made it a point to say "This isn't one of the reasons I suspected you."

I like how you've tried to turn this question into an attack against me, though. "Making hay" indeed. I'm going to go ahead and add "Poorly disguised OMGUS" to my mental list of transgressions against you.

You spent an awful lot of time asking people questions about Foolinc (town), Mgm (town), Skruffs (town), and Dani (whom I believe is town). Yet you seemed hesitant to give your actual opinions of many players beyond your initial reread of the game. Basically, I get the impression that you're asking select questions to/about select players to direct discussion and appear to contribute without actually giving any of your own personal input. That's a pretty major tell in my book.

At the time you posted this, I had exactly ten days to get acclimated to this game. I was also packing, moving 1000 miles, attending a bachelor party and unpacking in that time. I really wanted to be in this game because of the quality of the talent, and mith found a spot for me. My contribution's as good as it could get in that limited timeframe, and now I'm taking a look at each player one by one. Your attack here is hyperaggressive, and I believe the sleaziest part of your argument against me.

Honestly, you probably picked the exact wrong person to make these kinds of excuses to, given the fact that I've moved 550 miles, started a new full-time job last week (for which I am still taking on out-of-work training sessions), and have been living out of a pair of suitcases for the past eleven days since my apartment lease got fucked up.

But making excuses is not the point. The fact of the matter is that you've followed the thread closely enough to be able to judge where people are/aren't lacking in contributions (based on all of the "hey, what do you think of X?" questions), and yet you have continually chosen to simply ask other people to talk rather than giving your own opinions. Only recently have you come out to divulge your own thougths on LmL, and it wasn't until yesterday evening that you actually laid out a vote at all. Your only FoS of the day is an entirely unreasonable FoS of MeMe (which may even have been a joke -- I'm not really sure).

All I've seen from you is a lot of handwaving and interrogation, but

YOU YOURSELF

have to contribute. You don't find it the least bit hypocritcal that, while you're trying to extract opinions from everyone else, you get all huffy when I insinuate that you're not talking enough about your own personal thoughts?

Vote: Sarc

, CES, Gaspar, IH, Tamuz, Dragon Phoenix, Talitha, Pooky, VitR, logicticus, Zindaras, LML, foolinc

Why is CES second on your list? Why Tamuz so high? Why Zindaras so low?
(See, I can do it, too.)

[Gaspar]

Actually, Tamuz, the only reason I dropped it is precisely

because

I can't seem to drum up enough support for a Grey lynch. I'am sensible enough to not harp on a topic for which I recieve zero support.

My desire to have him lynched is still reflected by the fact that Grey is first and MBL second on my list. But I know when to stop beating a dead horse. :/

[Gaspar]

I take it my suspicions of Sarc, IH and Gaspar make sense to you, considering you didn't ask me to explain them? Ditto with my trust of logicticus and foolinc? It's a relief to know that you find yourself scummy as well--Primspar, do you agree?

No, I was following your example of only asking questions about select players as a show of how one can attempt to direct discussion through seemingly innocuous means.

I never implied that I was okay with your other feelings, and I most certainly did

NOT

state or imply any agreement with them. In fact, if you'll note, I've stated multiple tiems taht I believe MoS/Dani/Sarc to be protown. You're putting factually incorrect words into my mouth and making erroneous insinuations ("you find yourself scummy") based upon them.







Seriously, people. MBL is the play, and he's trying to throw as much dirt on me as possible.

[Gaspar]

Two reasons:
1) As I already said, I want the GreyVote on there as an indication/reminder of my attitude towards Grey.
2) I'm too lazy to redo my Condorcet to switch Grey and MBL as my 1-2.

*shrug*

[Gaspar]

EBWOP: And 3) There is no functional difference between me voting Grey and MBL right now, as Grey's not anywhere near being lynched over MBL. (And 3a - If he were, I'd be perfectly okay with that. )

[Gaspar]

I've made more than enough posts today for you to know what I think about Lee right now.

If you can't read them, that's not on me, it's on you.

I don't know what Lee is, but I believe with a high degree of certainty that he's lying about his usage of the word "lace" and it doesn't make sense for him to be dodgy that way unless he is anti-town.

I agree with Pooky.

I'd also like a better explanation from MBL for his vote on me. As far as I can tell, it's a holdover from some weak suspicion he had of Dani.

Gee, it's like my point about MBL asking selectively-chosen (and apparently redundant) questions to others to hide his own noncontribution is a valid one!


Crazy how that works, ain't it?

[Gaspar]

(Glork.)

Well. Now that that's over with...

It should be fairly obvious that LmL almost certainly did

not

kill Xyzzy. I am also wililng to pass his allegations of PookyScum off as "you took me down, so I'm going to try to get you lynched" behavior. His passive mention of Zindaras is interesting, though; I did not take any time overnight to look at Zindaras or LmL's thoughts on Zindie, but I've made a little note to go back over Zindie's play eventually. Flavor aside, I agree with Tally that the role could be reasonably balanced.

Response to MBL's Gaspar-addressed post is forthcoming. I've been busy with work (and I'm actually *at* work as I type this up <.<). Definitely expect it before the end of the week.

[Gaspar]

Why do you consider us lucky?

The LACE thing is still bull. Wesson certainly doesn't seem the type for poisoning people.

[Gaspar]

Okay, then I'm not really understanding what you're getting at. Do you think CES is implying that the people who lynched LmL are protown?

Remember at the end of 2-Headed Giant when whomever it made the right lynch (on PJ) for completely wrong/flawed reasons. He got lucky. He nailed the scum when good logic should've directed him to a mislynch and he used flawed logic instead.



I think the only assumption CES makes is that the People Responsible for LmL's Lynch all benefited from lynching him, so they all made a "good" lynch based on bad reasoning (the whole LACE thing, which was entirely inaccurate to begin with, assuming LmL did not poison ZZ). Thus, LmL's lynchers made a theoretically good lynch on bad reasoning, so they got lucky.

CES, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but that's how I'm reading the statement.

[Gaspar]

Ah. Now I understand your perspective.

As something of an aside, I would argue that nailing an SK, while still theoretically a "mislynch" for the Mafia, is generally a Good Thing. I don't have any numbers/stats to back up my opinion, but I think that the average SK poses a greater threat to the Mafia than the average protown role.


Nevertheless, if we assume that Mafia treated LmL's lynch as a "mislynch," I agree that we can't ignore the people on his wagon.

What I noted overnight is that Tally and DP -- both of whom I've suspected mildly to moderately already -- both joined the LmLwagon late, when beforehand MBL (whom I obviously believe is scum) would have been the Condorcet winner. If MBL doesn't end up being the lynch of the day, I certainly wouldn't mind seeing either of those two hang.

[Gaspar]

IH, in Caddyshack Mafia the SK (raj) self-hammered at Lynch-1 because he wanted to give the Mafia a chance at beating the town.


Now granted, LmL said "go town" before going down, but I would imagine that he didn't see the point of dragging out the day through the weekend.

[Gaspar]

What I noted overnight is that Tally and DP -- both of whom I've suspected mildly to moderately already -- both joined the LmLwagon late, when beforehand MBL (whom I obviously believe is scum) would have been the Condorcet winner. If MBL doesn't end up being the lynch of the day, I certainly wouldn't mind seeing either of those two hang.

Sure, I wanted to make sure that MBL would not be lynched. That's why I voted for him all day.

If you want to throw suspicion, try to do it in a more clever way. You are moving up the condorcet ladder once I preparae a new one.

Actually, the fact that you ragged on MBL for much of the day before switching makes me want to put you above Tally on my list. You might've heard the ploy; it's called "distancing."

And while you had been gunning for MBL right up until the most crucial part of the day, he has been suspiciously quiet regarding you. He has asked you a single question and threw out a weak FoS of you (along with FoSes of VitR and Gaspar, all of which, I might note, had more than atouch of OMGUS to them)... other than that, nothing.

[Gaspar]

Gaspar is basing his suspicions on who wasn't voting for MBL at the end of the day. This reasoning might be useful if MBL turns out to be mafia, but at this stage most of us just don't know whether that is the case.

You're slightly off here. I am not "basing" my suspicions of you and DP on the fact that you jumped LmL instead of MBL. As I stated,

I already found each of you suspicious at points in the game

, and I happened to notice a connection between you and MBL, whom I also believe is scum. If I were "basing" my suspicions on people not voting MBL, I'd have like nine suspects right now.

[Gaspar]

I would agree with Foolinc if it were a D1 situation more. One of the methods I use from time to time is applying an unusually intense level of pressure for something relatively minor. Watching reactions based on that can be effective scumhunting.


The difference with LmL is twofold:
1) This came in D3 when simply attacking somebody hard generally shouldn't (and doesn't) cut the mustard. Supposing LmL were in fact protown, I could almost have guaranteed that there would be people all over his lynchers for running him up for a bad reason. But apparently this is turning into a game where the ends justify the means. I don't particularly like that.
2) The only person who really clearly expressed "I'm voting LmL because his response to this whole issue is what's scummy" is DP. Plus points for him, in retrospect. If you look at the actual people who laid down votes on them, most of them gave little to no real reasoning, and some were on it because of the LACE thing specifically (which is certainly up-in-the-air as to whether it was accurate).

[Gaspar]

Lee was trying to tell us that he uses the word "lace" commonly. He does not. He tried to present 'proof', that wasn't. These things didn't prove that he killed xyyzy, but they showed that he was not on the level.

Foolinc is

exactly

right in this situation.

First of all, I would disagree with him not-using-lace as being indicative of him being scum.

Assuming that he did not kill Xyzzy (which is a conclusion I am willing to draw), that would imply that he

does

use "lace" in the manner he meant it. I personally found Pooky's demands of proof to be a little ridiculous; there are words that I use all the time in meatworld that simply aren't a part of my online persona.

Additionally, I was of the opinion that LmL's reaction seemed reasonably justified. In retrospect, the adamancy (is that a word?) with which he tried to avoid being lynched is consistent with him being an independent entity. However, at the time, I don't feel that there was enough to say that he was scum based on the way he had behaved.

Answer this for me, Tally:

How would you have expected LmL to react as a

protown player

in the face of the accusations placed against him, esepcially when Pooky demanded explicit, timestampped proof of him using it in an online setting? Why?
How would you have expected LmL to react as

Mafia

in the aforementioned situation?

One final thought for the day: I love how the three people I've expressed suspicion of (MBL, DP, Tally) are the three people who most seem to want me dead. Coincidence? You decide.

[Gaspar]

EBWOP: Why exactly is IH still third on your list, Tally,

especially

when you just admitted within the last 24 hours that you thought you were wrong about disbeliving his claim?

[Gaspar]

I read your post and understood it completely. You stated that you thought you were wrong, but that you felt it might have been a safeclaim (something on which I would like you to elaborate, if you don't mind). You also stated that you wanted to reasess exactly why you were suspicious of Oman/IH and

whether you still felt it was valid

. Have you made that reasessment? Do you feel that your suspicions were valid? Why exactly did you suspect him to begin with?

It seems that you saw the claim, said "oh, I need to check on this" and suddenly he's back at the top of your list without another word of explanation. I'm curious as to know what your full thought processes are right now because from what I can see, they don't make any sense to me.

[Gaspar]

EBWOP (again): To clarify

my

perspective:
IH asks you what you think of his claim. You say you think you were wrong about [disbelieving] it. To me, that implies that you now believe it.
You stated that you wanted to re-examine why you were suspicous of him to begin
with and whether that suspicion was valid. Indication: You are no longer aware of your initial suspicions of IH.
Now he's third on your list. That indicates to me that you've reviewed and are still suspicious of him. Is that the case, or are you voting him based on past suspicions that you couldn't even fully articulate in your own mind?

[Gaspar]

Okay... aside from the chronological discrepancy of MBL mentinioning safeclaims

before

you made your "IH is significantly less suspicious" post, that makes a bit more sense than "I was wrong about your claim" followed by putting him third on your condorcet with no elaboration.

I still don't like your justification for jumping LmL, nor your suspicions in general, nor your sudden dislike of me after I've begun applying pressure to you... and I am not entirely satisfied by your flipflop on IH just now.

And I still want you to make good on your promise to review your case on IH. Having somebody third on your list when you can't even explain why you're suspicious of them is likely indicative of subpar townie play, or it's evidence of a scumbag trying to slide under the radar. I fully intend to find out which is the case.

[Gaspar]

Yeah, I've not had the time to go through your post quote-by-quote. But the point I was going to make is that you're blowing most of your "outstanding contributions" out of proportion. Here is the beginning of the post I was working on, as saved in my notes:

Post 1262, as a reference for both myself and others following along....
I'm just going to number MBL's quotes rather than citing them all here to save space.

A few things on your "WALL O' TEXT," MBL.
1) A lot of what you listed as questions. I've already acknowledged that you have readily asked questions of others; my contention is with the fact that you didn't seem especially interested in giving your thoughts in light of said questions. Case in point: Quote #2, a question to IH. You ask him to give his best game as scum. IH never followed up on this request, and you

NEVER

mentioned it again. One would think that

if you were genuinely interested in hearing and analyzing the responses to the questions you ask, you would make sure that your questions/requests did not go unanswered

.
Tell me, MBL. Why exactly did you ask that question to IH?
What do you think of his lack-of-response?
Why didn't you say or do anything back when IH failed to respond?
Did you even notice that he didn't respond?
I'm not seeing how "but look at these questions I've asked!!" is a legitimate 'defense' against my accusations when you're obviously not even bothering to comment on the responses (or, apparently, the lack thereof).
<<EDIT>>
#10, you ask IH to post his thoughts on Mgm/Skruffs. He doesn't; you don't push him on it.
Others that fall into this category: 14,

2) This could be called 1a, because it does tie in with the previous point. A handful of your questions were completely open-ended and revealed no real conclusion on your part. #6, 7, and 8 were all of the "is this indicative of scum or not?" nature -- they all came from a list of things you said you wanted to investigate. Looking through your posts, I find that -- lo and behold! -- you didn't follow up on any of them! I mean, I could say something like "MBL: Contentless content or genuine, thoughtful musings?" just as easily as you have done.

3) A significant percentage of the comments you listed were made as direct responses to direct questions to you. Sure, if somebody actually calls to your attention a specific case/request/query, you'll respond. For example: Quotes #1, #3, #9
To say that you've made healthy contributions hardly applies to answering direct questions -- you, as a player, are expected to answer them, and you don't show the same kind of willingness to share your suspicions just by answering to others.

4) Even the questions you do ask which go answered immediately are never follwed up on by you. #11, 12,

Almost all of the posts that don't fall into one of these categories are centralized among about three (maybe four) general analysis posts. I noted that you quoted each of these statements individually, so as to make your post seem longer/more significant. Essentially, MBL, I'm perfectly willing to admit that you've made about one real, original, contributive post per day. Everything else is asking questions without following up on them, answering others' questions about your thoughts, or making vauge and inconclusive remarks (which you also never elaborate on).

[Gaspar]

FoS: Saetel

You seem to be of the assumption/conclusion that LmL and Thesp were on the same side, and that LmL was actively distancing from others. This is.... well, completely different from what everybody else in the game has concluded. Do you have any particular reason to believe that LmL was Mafia and not a Serial Killer?

[Gaspar]

What IH said.

Looking at the playerlist, LmL was a "Mass Murderer." Thesp was part of the "Parisian Mafia." That would lend itself towards the conclusion that LmL operated independently of Thesp.

Either you're not paying any attention at all, or you know something that the rest of us could not possibly know.

....or are you telling me that reading "not enough of the thread" includes the list of living and dead players?




Also, I (Glork) am leaving in a couple of hours, for two weeks. I may have some spotty access, but you'll be in the care of Primate for the next 12 days or so. Enjoy.

[Gaspar]

And what I have a problem with is that Gaspar just pulled the FoS out of nowhere. I don't really see how it automatically looks scummy. I understand the question completely, but the FoS just seems like an odd gut reaction to have, along the lines of the "this is weird so it's scummy" thought process I hate so much.

How did it "come out of nowhere"? Saetel replaced into the game and immediately made analysis based on an assumption (LmL's alignment) that every other person either didn't make or made completely differently (him being an SK rather than a Mafia member). As I said, it implied that she had inside information or she wasn't paying attention. The reason it was simply an FoS is because I wanted to bring it to attention and have Saetel explain exactly why she chose to believe that LmL was part of the Parisian Mafia. I don't understand how it

couldn't

raise a flag. Many of her points were based on LmL-X interactions, but if LmL operated solo, those points are invalid.

I feel that this is absolutely worth probing, and I'm actually baffled that you take issue with such an inquiry. Looking at Saetel's reaction, I am leaning towards thinking that it was an honest mistake now. Nevetheless, bringing it up got me the reactions that I needed to see. And if Saetel is legit, it prevented her from reading the thread under a flawed assumption, as she just pointed out.

Sarc:
Do you feel that there was a downside to pointing out the flaw?
Why did you state that I automatically concluded she was scummy based on it, when I clearly stated that it was possible she just wasn't paying attention?

Saetel:
What alterations do you have to your early-game notes based on the last page's happenings?

[Gaspar]

A better question is, if you think he's a risk,

why

wouldn't you have him on your condorcent? I've been thinking about a Mr. Grey lynch, and I think one of a few of these things will happen.

1.Multiple roles will be crippled
2.We'll go into a happily ever after situation
3.We'll all lose
4.We'll all draw
5.We'll no lynch
6.Mr. Grey will be lynched, and somebody else will become an incarnation of dante.

I find the 6th the most unlikely, and any of the first five to be on equal terms.

Okay, the latter part of #6 piqued my interest. What exactly do you mean by "become an incarnation of Dantes"?

By the way, there's a #7 that you missed. There's probably a #8 as well, and maybe even more beyond that.


Saetel's bringing up the D1 Condorcet debate is interesting -- no, I don't believe I have gone back and looked over it. I was thinking at the time that scum would try to flock onto this debate, because it gives the appearance of contribution without actually hunting for scums.
Mgm is dead town
VitR is dead town
Jeep/BM is dead town
ZZ is dead town
CES and DP are the only ones (other than me) left on the list. DP is fairly high on my list still, whereas CES (now Saetel) is middle-of-the-road.
Obviously I'm still alive... but I know I'm protown.

That's something I'll have to think about in the coming days.


I will note that Tally never properly responded to my questions regarding LmL from Post 1369. I let her go at the time because she cited RL issues, but I want to make sure that she's not sliding out of something that she couldn't find a reasonable answer to.

Also, I just realized today that I haven't voted. MBL and Tally are neck-and-neck right now. I expect Tally to give an analysis before the gameday ends. I may switch the two of them based on how the next couple of days go.
I realize I haven't said much about Pooky, Tamuz, or Zindaras. I don't find any of them particularly scummy. I'll have to look them over when I find the time to do so.
IH, Sarc, Foolinc are still protown.
I'm not sure where the logichate is coming from. I feel that this is the sortof ghostwagon on a protown player, and I'll look at who's got Logic secnond-to-fourth on their lists if he turns out protown.

Vote: MBL

, Tally, DP, Saetel, [logicticus, Pooky, Tamuz, Zindaras], [Foolinc, IH, Sarcastro], No Lynch, Gaspar

[Gaspar]

Just a note: I also want Tally to state whether she's done her review of IH's play. If so, what does she think? If not, why not?

[Gaspar]

You'd No Lynch before you'd lynch Zindaras? That's awfully bold. Mind explaining that one, Tamuz?


MBL: What do you mean by "solve the IH problem"?


I haven't bothered to count, but I want to make sure this is 25 posts to keep my gameday quota up. Yay words. <.<

[Gaspar]

Tamuz: I didn't notice it before. I was kinda hellbent on getting Grey and MBL killed. I'm trying to do a better job of not tunnel-visioning myself to the point of unhelpfulness.
Now, could you please explain?

Pooky, a few months ago I may have thought the same thing. I've lost some faith in seeing statements as genuinely protown. Also, you stated thatyou "still" think she's not scum -- even though the quote you cited came from her most recent contentful post. What can you point to from earlier in the game that led to your opinion in the first place? (Or does "still" refer to the last page?)

IH: Could you please explain why you suddenly felt the urge to move to Logic? What convinced you that he is today's play?

[Gaspar]

Prim:

I'll make a post in about 10 hours or so. I have to do a presentation, then I'll get on it straight after that.

[Gaspar]

(Glork.)

Pooky, IH, and Tally have all posted and not properly responded to my questions for them. Why is this the case?

IH, please explain this "somebody else will become an incarnation of Dantes" thing. Do you think Grey was Dantes? Do you have reason to believe that somebody else would become Dantes upon Grey's death?

Pooky, what from earlier in the game led you to conclude that Tally is protown?

Tally, as patient as I may be, I don't trust you and I don't like the fact that you can't seem to find time to explain yourself regarding IH.

Condorcet Update:

Unvote
Vote: Talitha

, MBL, DP, Saetel, [Pooky, Tamuz] [IH, logicticus, Zindaras], [Foolinc, Sarcastro], No Lynch, Gaspar

[Gaspar]

Major FoS: Zindaras

No Lynch less than 24 hours before deadline?

[Gaspar]

Gaspar, why do I get the feeling you would be voting for me regardless of whether I found the time to adequately explain myself. My current theory is that you are scum, and you know that IH is not scum, and you saw my waivering suspicions of IH as an opportunity to go after someone you know to be wrong and trip them up on their own reasoning.

I don't know. I made it pretty clear about a week ago that I wanted you to make good on your promise to look over IH and explain your thoughts on him. The fact that you hadn't is something that really bothers me, and it's something I've seen as indicative of scum in the past. The fact that you didn't make an effort to say anything at all really is what pushed me over the line. There was no "I took a really quick skim of IH's posts and this is the general feeling I get." If you'd said even that much, I'd probably not have jumped to you.

The FOS on Zindaras I don't agree with and see it as the actions of a scum. It's quite gutsy to place a no lynch vote 24 hours before deadline, and draws attention to oneself. Zindaras's unsureness and placeholder vote looks like a town-ish action, even if it's not particularly helpful.

I find it very unusual for Zindaras to fail to take a stand during D4. And yes, it

DOES

matter if he votes No Lynch because we have no Condorcet winner (meaning the day would result in a No-Lynch). His top four suspects are the three Condorcet winners and IH, which I find very sheepish. He's not willing to stick his neck out and just go for one of them. While I will concede that caution can be a protown sign, but that is completely unlike what I'm used to seeing from protown

Zindaras

.



I'd really like to see Zindaras choose between his top four and actually contribute to acheiving a lynch today. I *should* be around to move back to MBL to ensure a lynch, but I honestly can't make any promises -- I'm in training all day and shouldn't be on MS in the first place.

[Gaspar]

It's so...silly not to vote.

No Lynch essentially denotes a blank vote.

Could you explain the difference between not voting and making a blank vote? How exactly are you hunting for scums? How do you expect to provide any accountability or responsibility for your contributions to the game? Why did you say that Voting No Lynch didn't matter, when Grey

just made a vote count indicating that the result of the current Condorcet would have no single winner

?


Update because I don't think I'll get on before deadline, but Zindaras has

SKYROCKETED

up my list.

Unvote
Vote: MrBuddyLee

Talitha, Zindaras, [DP, Saetel], [Pooky, Tamuz] [IH, logicticus], [Foolinc, Sarcastro], No Lynch, Gaspar

[Gaspar]

No, Logic -- if there is no winner from the condorcet method, then my understanding is that we no-lynch:

If a single option beats every other option in these pairings, that option is the Condorcet winner, and is lynched. If there is no Condorcet winner (or if "no lynch" is the Condorcet winner), no one is lynched.

Zindaras' failure to choose a player to vote had, until my shift back to MBL, resulted in

no Condorcet winner

, meaning that we *WOULD* have no-lynched.

[Gaspar]

You're funny, Gaspar.

You're not accusing me of voting No Lynch, you're accusing me of listing MBL and logictitus in the same brackets. What's your point? Deadline hasn't hit, I've got time enough to change my list.

I'm accusing you of fence-sitting, having all of the general game's top suspects at the top of your own list but refusing to distinguish between any of them. Your current position is completely unreasonable for any protown player.


Basically, Zindie, at this point: Nobody will be lynched becasue there is no consensus favorite between MBL and Logic (as you have aptly noted). If you choose to vote one of them over the other, we'll secure a lynch. Otherwise, we won't.



Do you really think that nolynching is a good idea at this point?

[Gaspar]

And it's still 2 hours until deadline. I will break the tie if there is one.

Yeah, for some reason I thought it was in less than half an hour. Time math for the loss.

Setael, I'd like you to make a list containing all players.

*scoff*
I find it amusing that you're demanding a bottom half to his list when you can't figure out the top half to your own.
What about Logic only posting a top 4, then "everyone else" and then No Lynch and then himself? Saetel's list is, functionally, the exact same... yet you didn't ask Logic to outline anything.

[Gaspar]

Zindaras, don't play stupid.

Admitting to fence-sitting is not an excuse or a reasonable explanation for the fence-sitting itself.

I'm not asking Saetel because she has made it quite obvious that she believes both are protown. If you bothered to read her posts, you'd know that, too.

[Gaspar]

You don't *have* to, Saetel. Zindaras just wants you to (probably to distract from his own scumminess <.<). Anyway, you missed the point -- he wants you to break down that "[everyone else]" block into more detail.

[Gaspar]

Uh, Grey, I've got MrBuddyLee as the Condorcet winner when I put in the information from that file.

[Gaspar]

Right, my fault.

Yeah, somebody needs to decide on MBL or Logic fast, or we're not going to lynch today.

[Gaspar]

No, we have like 15-20 minutes from now.


Seriously, Zindie. Just pick somebody, even if you're actually not entirely sure.

[Gaspar]

Oh, well that settles that, I think.

[Gaspar]

So

Sarc

dies instead of MBL now?

[Gaspar]

I think foolinc might have been recruited by the mafia. That could explain the mentioning of all the characters early on (trying to signal the mafia?), and why he is still alive now. I have asked about this before and only got a snarky reply, but

would that fit with the doctor character in the book???

Someone must be familiar with the story, please speak up.

The "recruited by the mafia" observation is interesting, and (as much as I'd hate to admit it given how dead-set I was on you being scum yesterday) something I see as a somewhat protown sign, but I'm awfully curious to know how you got "recruited by the mafia" as opposed to "dirty lying scumbag from the start."

Either way, I don't buy it. This is the 3rd night the mafia has opted not to NK the doc which makes no sense since he is a big hindrance to them and can potentially mess up their NKs.

It's not the "Scums left Foolinc alive" that gets me. I can't recall any specific games off the top of my head, but I've seen games where the scums leave the Doc alive for the WIFOM of it all.

The kill on Logic is definitely alarming, especially when combined with Foolinc's repeated poor decision-making. The each kill choice seems like really logical choices for the scums to make. BM claimed to be an info role (and given the alignment "Parisian Mafia," it's obvious that a rolename cop would have been quite damning for the scums). Skruffs had softclaimed a role with an ability. I don't think there was a single person in the game who really suspected VitR. And Logic had just claimed a confirmable-innocent role. If the scums were dancing around the "really obvious kill choices" and killing fringe players, I could understand it. But it's as if they don't even need to worry about there

being

a doctor. The most logical explanation for this would be the existence of a Mafia Roleblocker -- a possibility which I am definitely not yet willing to discount.



I look forward to hearing from TSS, given that MBL's been riding the top of my suspicion list for a couple of days now.

I still want Zindie to explain why he felt his earlier fence-sitting was justifiable. Consciously choosing not to try to contribute to a lynch is something I cannot comprehend, and wishy-washiness/indecision is definitely a scumtell in my book, whether you hide it or flaunt it.

Vote: the silent speaker

, Zindaras, Talitha, Foolinc, DP, Saetel, [Pooky, Tamuz], [IH, Sarcastro], No Lynch, Gaspar

[Gaspar]

protected the person lowest on the voting lists, Zindaras.

You should try reading foolinc's posts, IH.

Sarc, same deal to you: Zindaras said that he looked at the vote count and you/MBL were tied,

while he had MBL ahead of you

. Lynch without claim > No Lynch; unfortunately, as Grey pointed out yesterday, the tiebreaker methods listed on the condorcet counting website are inaccurate.

I want to hear from Pooky. I am interested to know how I became his top suspect.

[Gaspar]

I think if Foolinc is scum, then there are two scum groups, or else Logictus was killed by a vig.

I'm not sure why you think Logic would have been targeted by a Vig. No vig in their right mind would shoot a claimed Mason like that.
The "two scumgroups" bit is interesting, given Tally's earlier statement/conclusion that multiple kills was likely a result of multiple scumgroups.

IH - if foolinc is scum do you think there's a doc in this game that hasn't claimed? If so... why do you think they didn't protect logicticus?

Kind of makes no sense.

This is quite a turnaround from just a handful of posts ago, when you were voting Foolinc. Reason?
Also, IH is implying with the two scumgroups or a vig thing that Logic would have been targeted by multiple kills, meaning Doc protection on him would have failed.

[Gaspar]

Pooky brings up a really good point.


I'd like to hear DP respond to Saetel, as he promised to "pick [her attacks on him] apart" today.

I'd also like to hear more concrete input from Sarcastro and TSS (still).



I'd be up for wagoning some fools and forcing some claims right about now. If there are three Parisian Mafiates left, we're only a single mislynch removed from LyLo, potentially. Like Pooky said, yesterday's No-Lynch was pretty terrible, and there are a lot of people who seem to be content sitting on the sidelines and watching. The more I think about it, the more it bothers me... minus points for TSS, Zindie, Sarc, and DP. Consequently, it's time for a Condorcet update:

Unvote
Vote: the silent speaker

, Zindaras, DP, Talitha, Sarcastro, Foolinc, Saetel, Pooky, IH, No Lynch, Gaspar

[Gaspar]

EBWOP: Pooky, where were *YOU* at the end of the day yesterday? Were you keeping an eye on the game? If not, why are you claiming the need to be responsible for "kickstarting the game"? If so, why did you not try to secure a lynch somewhere?

[Gaspar]

I kind of just want to lynch Gaspar. I'm not entirely sure why.

Oh My God, I Suck.

[Gaspar]

Now *that* I can agree with.



Let's start with TSS.

[Gaspar]

Run that by me again, Gaspar? In what way am I "content sitting on the sidelines and watching" when I've been in the game for all of three days, and one of them was a Saturday?

That's re: Your most recent predecessor, MBL. I've already explained why I feel his "contributions" feel forced, insincere, or otherwise shady. I trust by now you've read my case against him?


It's no fault of your own (as of now, anyway)... Adele and MBL have pretty much convinced me that you, collectively, are scum.

[Gaspar]

When this was suggested earlier, an attack was made.

What has suddenly changed your minds? (See day 1)

No, I believe the suggestion was simply that not making Condorcets early in days had no point and therefore should not be done. I argued against that rationale on the basis of information-sharing and tracability.

I think the goal should always be to acheive a lynch normally -- the Condorcet is to be seen as a way of forcing people to show their hands when it comes to suspicions, and to serve as a possible tiebreaker in the event that we are unable to lynch the old-fashioned way.

[Gaspar]

I find TSS a lot scummier than MBL and would like to list them on my condorcet separately. OK?

However. Right now I'm thinking that if I were Gaspar and I were scum, I'd be going after one of my scum buddies..
a) because I (Gaspar) am under some suspicion myself and aren't all that likely to be followed, but...
b) if my scum buddy does get lynched I (Gaspar) want it to look like I was the driving force behind the wagon, and...
c) with any luck this condorcet lottery means that someone else (or no-one) will get lynched anyway even though my vote is safely on my scum buddy

Crazy theory? Time will tell. I am frustrated to bits that the only time i get to spend online lately i'm half-dead from exhaustion. it makes it hard to be very sure of myself and gather evidence from the thread etc. So, I apologise for this and wish I had more time. I'll try my best though.

Oh and welcome back MBL.

vote:

Gaspar,

Silent Lee

Heh... I'm naturally biased, but I think your theory would have more merit if I hadn't been going after Lee since well before I garnered any suspicion. Your "Gaspar would go after his scumbuddy" theory would fit more with someone like Zindaras -- somebody who has moved up more recently in my list.


I like what you've done there, though. Now if SiLee dies as town, I look bad for having gone after him for so long. If he dies as scum, I've been busing him all along.




Your flavor bit with Foolinc actually makes a fair amount of sense. My only thing is that I don't think there's a missing mafia kill anywhere to have time to recruit him... unless somebody vigged Skruffs (which, now that I think about it, is quite possible, as a select handful of players expressed suspicion of him).

If there's a Doctor out there who is sure that Foolinc is scum, I personally believe that *now* is the time to claim, before we get into possible endgame. Take that for what it's worth.


(Also, limited access for about 48 hours... I may be able to snag some time Thursday night. We'll see.)

[Gaspar]

Fun Fact: I have a layover in Atlanta tomorrow as well. Mine's only an hour, though.

[/offtopic]

[Gaspar]

Glork here... I know I've complained about the number of "obligatory posting requirement"posts, but I have to make one for now. I *will* read and post serious content on Saturday; I just wasn't sure how much time had passed since my last post, and I wanted to get something in.



Cheers.

[Gaspar]

I am extraordinarily sure that there are exactly three allied scumbaggoes left. Playing Outguess the Mod on the character identities of the scums is awfully dangerous, IMHO... we don't know if one of the "obvious" four isn't scum, or if Foolinc fake-claimed himself, or what. I find it alarming that people are throwing around discussions of characters and setup rather than looking more stictly at gameplay.

I am currently thinking that if Foolinc *IS* protown, DP is almost surely scum. He seems to want to wrangle a lynch on Foolinc without actually doing so. Am I the only person who finds it odd that while he's got Foolinc

lowest

on his Condorcet, he just openly stated that he A) Doesn't think there's a Scum Roleblocker [and by the way, DP, I've modded at least one game in which a Scum Roleblocker's target was not notified of having been blocked]; and B) isn't willing to accept the existence of a protown Doctor? This seems to be a product of a

very

conveniently-shifting stance as momentum against Foolinc continues to mount.




Also.... IH, I'd

REALLY

like you to explain the rationale behind a vig killing a claimed Mason, because I'm not seeing it

at all

. I'd also like you to throw your weight around in a manner more relevant to finding scum here and now, rather than debating why Logic died.

I'd give 85% that the remaining scums are among [Tally, DP, Zindaras, SiLee]. Accordingly:

Unvote
Vote: Zindaras

, [Tally, DP, SilentLee], [Pooky, IH], [Sarc, Saetel, foolinc], No Lynch, Gaspar

[Gaspar]

*shakes head*

You are missing my point, sir. Supposing Foolinc is Parisian Scum and somebody else killed Logic, there's still no reason a Vig would kill Logic. And if there were two scumgroups, there's no explanation as to why there has been at most one kill each night (if we assume that LmL's claim to Thesp's death is still legit).



I don't know why you're giving any weight behind a VIG killing Logic.
I don't know why you're giving any weight behind there being a second scumgroup.

[Gaspar]

I understand your logic. I really do.

My whole point is that the evidence from the night actions, to date, does not support there being another Mafia (or a second SK). And any halfway decent Vig would *NOT* have killed a claimed Mason. So while I understand how your logic would make sense IF FOOLINC WERE SCUM, I argue that the EVIDENCE FROM THE GAME'S NIGHT ACTIONS IS INCONSISTENT WITH A SECOND KILL"GROUP" OUT THERE.


Do you think that there's a second killing group? Why or why not? If so, what nature do you think the killing group is (Mafia, SK, Vig, Other)?

[Gaspar]

Then take what you will from my logic. If you believe my logic, then you believe one of four things.

Fool is town
Fool is being bussed
Fool is a traitor
Fool is with stupid scum

If there is a second killing group..... it's a tossup, but I would guess further that they could be a restricted killing group (see Freaktown IV, where Scum group A could only kill on even nights and Scum group B could only kill on odd nights) thought I'm personally unsure how well that would hold up.

Atm though, my mind is drawn to the possibility of LML being in a group.

I'll try to post something other than speculation about this sometime soon.

Yes, note that Foolinc is in the bottom group of my Condorcet. I think the conclusion I've ultimately reached is fairly obvious. The only other one I'd be willing to give weight to is him being a Traitor. But I find it more likely that scums are raising a stink and trying to get us to ring up Fool just short of LyLo.


Scumgroups with alternating kills doesn't make much sense to me. In fact, I think the non-Parisian group would be *MORE* likely to kill Foolinc if that were the case. Plus, it doesn't sound like a very mithy thing to do.

[Gaspar]

Just so I'm not accused of making up stuff - apart from my usual reasons of gut instinct, these posts contain my reasons for why these 3 are scum from reading the early thread:

Gaspar (was PWS)
- Thesp's post 160 (Seems very aware of PWS.. finds him suspicious but is hazy about it.. like he knows PWS is scum, but doesnt really want to know).
- post 223 ("There's no info to gain from this..you know this" - Why would there be no info to be gained from pressuring someone?)
- post 263 (Sort of implies MOS is town.. doesn't seem to consider the MOS=scum possibility!)

1) I can't do much about Thesp's play. There are a number of players that he didn't give a lot of attention to.
2) If you bothered to look at context, you would know why. MoS starts of literally

every single game

with a random vote. Attacking him for demonstrating the randomness of his vote obviously wasn't something that PWS found helpful. (Note that Pooky gave a following explanation, which prompted PWS's 263.)
3) I don't see how there's an assumption that MoS is town. What I'm seeing is PWS saying "Pooky, I don't see how you as town would vote somebody to see if people jump on." Where is the "MoS = Town" assumption exactly?


Actually, a bit more on Point 1.... People who Thesp commented on but did not directly attack during his lifetime:
Skruffs (protown)
Glork (unknown -- alive)
Pooky (unknown -- alive)
cubsfan (protown)
Adele/MBL/TSS (unknown -- alive)
foolinc (unknown -- alive)
IH (unknown -- alive)

---Actually, what I find interesting is this quote

Hmm, looks like Glork/Gaspar beats me to most of the points/thoughts I'm making here.

...which looks more like an ass-kissing job than a scumbuddy interaction. (Furhter notable given he lauded my performance after our most recent game together, Face-To-Face. I could easily see him trying to get on my good side.) Thoughts, people?---

(continuing with the list...)
odd banter with CES (unknown -- alive) after Thesp said his "theory" regarding the game was blown out of the water


Basically what I'm getting out of Thesp is that, other than gunning hard for a couple of select players, he never really

did

anything to go after

anyone

. He mentions just about everyone in passing, but he only explicitly goes after LmL, Mgm briefly, and then IH and MoS/Dani/nowSarc.

In fact, Tally, I think he mentioned or interacted with you less than just about anybody. Literally the

ONLY

interactions are where he quotes you and says you win here and indirectly defends you here and here (note also more "let me buddy-buddy up to Glork" behavior in this post as well) while attacking DaniBanani.

If you're going to accuse me of being Thesp's scumbuddy based on Thesp's behavior, you're going to have to be a hell of a lot more explicit than a mere one-liner.

[Gaspar]

EBWOP:

(note also more "let me buddy-buddy up to Glork" behavior in this post as well)

Actually, looking at context, I'm the one who prompted that by bantering with Thesp.

Brings up another odd point, though. One of Tally's points against PWS is that she believes he assumed/knew MoS was town. When I called Thesp "imperfect" for his stance on Dani (Post 837), wouldn't that imply belief/assumption/"knowing" that Thesp was protown (as opposed to "you're scum going after Dani")? Obviously he wasn't.

[Gaspar]

Oh snaps. Glork is on a roll now. I just noticed something else that's convinced me that a vote change is necessary. Let's look at literally every single one of

Tally's

mentionings of

Thesp

while the dirty scumbaggo was alive. Ready? Go!


Mentioning #1 -- Tally makes a point to go over Thesp's posts later and tacks him to the end of her Condorcet. Interestingly enough, the post in which she implies a Thesp/PWS connection, Thesp says the same thing to PWS.
Matthew 7:5 comes to mind here.

Mentioning #2 -- Tally mentions Thesp in passing while defending herself against Dani.

Mentioning #3 -- Tally defends Thesp against Dani. Double-team gogogo!

Mentioning #4 -- Thesp is still sitting lazily at the bottom of her Condorcet, which comes after another "I need to look over some players" comment. Also noteworthy (mostly because I'm an egocentric bastard) that she sheeped on to Foolinc following my reasoning.

Mentio... no wait, that was it. The next time she mentions Thesp is after he's dead.



I think Tally's got a few gaping holes in her current situation. She picked out a single quote from Thesp to try to show a "Thesp knows PWS is scum but doesn't want to admit it" feel, yet their interactions have been no better. In fact, the only capacity in which they've existed was in a situation that absolutely

screams

scumbuddy: Help each other out and build a case against another player, but otherwise ignore one another so as not to leave trails.

Now, how does this affect my opinion of everyone else? If Tally is scum (increasingly likely), then Zindie is probably scum. She's using her suspicions of Pooky/Gaspar as justification to keep Zindie lower on her list. If one (or both) of us died as scum, she'd have nothing, and her only option would be to hammer away at somebody while she went down in flames. Zindaras fits perfectly into that "other option" slot, where you don't want to go after them, but you want to make it seem like you were willing to go after them while not actually putting any real pressure on them.

I'd currently put DP as the third scumbaggo. Unless I'm mistaken, both DP/Zindie and DP/Tally interactions have been fairly scarce. DP is picking up a little heat, courtesy of Saetel and myself, and now he's mysteriously at the bottom of Tally's list. This one's a bit up-in-the-air right now, though. I'm less certain of it than I am of Tally and Zindie.

I'm going to leave my vote on Zindaras for a few reasons... he's got votes on him, he's suspicious in his own right for his blatant fence-sitting yesterday, and it just makes sense to me in relation to everything that's going on right now.

Unvote
Vote: Zindaras

, Talitha, DragonPhoenix, SilentLee, [foolinc, IH, Pooky, Sarcastro, Setael], No Lynch, Gaspar

[Gaspar]

Deadline in just over two days... Zindie should claim, and we should be getting a bit more serious about what we're going to do here and now.



I'd move to Tally or DP or possibly even SiLee before the end of the day, but Zindie's the best bet for now.

[Gaspar]

Perhaps there were two pairs of lovers, since Tamuz's scene makes it clear his death was not the work of any anti-town poisoner? If so, what are the implications for whether Lee was part of a scumgroup vs. working alone?

I'm not convinced that the poisoner was anti-town to begin with.
I am also not sure why you seem to bring up Lee being part of a scumgroup. The character and the role ID "Mass Murderer" don't really add up to "Mafia Scum" in my opinion. And yet

again

I bring up the general lack of multiplekillspernight. LmL was almost *certainly* working solo.

Glork decided that I'm sitting the fence, which is also a quite stupid suggestion, since I made my decision before we got a lynch.

No, Logic made your decision for you. You'd have to be a wretchedly awful player to lynch a claimed mason at that stage in a day.


Other assorted news and notes:
Something in Sarc's play reminds me of the way CES said "I'm going to follow your lead regarding MBL" to me in Face-To-Face Mafia. Both CES and MBL were scum. I'm not really all that convinced there's a direct parallel (mostly because I don't find Sarc's predecessors to be all that scummy), but the thought just occurred to me, and I feel like pointing it out. Even though Sarc has said he's having issues with reading people in the game, I'd like to see, before day's end, a rundown of his thoughts on each player, as best as he can give them. This applies paricularly to the folks he hasn't really mentioned so far.

I'd like to hear from Pooky what *exactly* he wants Zindaras dead for. IIRC, yesterday he said he wanted Gaspar/Sarc dead without reasoning, and today he's done the same to Gaspar/Zindaras. I want to know what Pooky thinks about each of the three of us and

why

he's thinking that, because at this stage the why is at least as important as the who.

IH: I think Foolinc's request was to have you explain what (if anything) makes you think an additional killing group is

likely

at this point, separate from what you think of his own alignment. I don't really have a good picture of that myself, so if you've explained "I think that there are two killgroups still alive because X, Y, Z" then I don't think you did a very good job of it.

[Gaspar]

You're not to be blamed for Logic claiming. You're to be blamed for the fact that you never took a stand before his claiming.... which is exactly my point.

[Gaspar]

Seeing as it's likely we are not going to reach a lynch today I would like Pooky to use a condorcet list to vote with. Because he's not using one right now I consider him to be protecting Gaspar. He has mentioned that he thinks Gaspar is scum more than once, but he consistently won't do anything about trying to kill him.

That's nice. Would you care to reply to my post regarding you?

Zindaras needs to claim

now

, because there isn't that much time left until deadline. We may need another claim or three before today runs out, too. Now is not the time for people to be ignoring/downplaying cases on them or failing to take a reasonable stand.


Also, I will be mostly unavailable this weekend (college reunion)... possibly as early as this evening. I'd *REALLY* like to be absolutely sure of what I'm doing before then.

[Gaspar]

EBWOP: Post

s

, not post. 1687-1689, Talitha.

[Gaspar]

Responses to your points against me:

1) I can't do much about Thesp's play. There are a number of players that he didn't give a lot of attention to.
2) If you bothered to look at context, you would know why. MoS starts of literally every single game with a random vote. Attacking him for demonstrating the randomness of his vote obviously wasn't something that PWS found helpful. (Note that Pooky gave a following explanation, which prompted PWS's 263.)
3) I don't see how there's an assumption that MoS is town. What I'm seeing is PWS saying "Pooky, I don't see how you as town would vote somebody to see if people jump on." Where is the "MoS = Town" assumption exactly?

I noted that Thesp didn't really interact with much of anybody, aside from trying to get LmL, IH, and MoS/Dani/NowSarc lynched.

I noted this:

---Actually, what I find interesting is this quote

Hmm, looks like Glork/Gaspar beats me to most of the points/thoughts I'm making here.

...which looks more like an ass-kissing job than a scumbuddy interaction. (Furhter notable given he lauded my performance after our most recent game together, Face-To-Face. I could easily see him trying to get on my good side.) Thoughts, people?---

...and analysis of your interactions towards Thesp.

Mentioning #1 -- Tally makes a point to go over Thesp's posts later and tacks him to the end of her Condorcet. Interestingly enough, the post in which she implies a Thesp/PWS connection, Thesp says the same thing to PWS.
Matthew 7:5 comes to mind here.

Mentioning #2 -- Tally mentions Thesp in passing while defending herself against Dani.

Mentioning #3 -- Tally defends Thesp against Dani. Double-team gogogo!

Mentioning #4 -- Thesp is still sitting lazily at the bottom of her Condorcet, which comes after another "I need to look over some players" comment. Also noteworthy (mostly because I'm an egocentric bastard) that she sheeped on to Foolinc following my reasoning.

Mentio... no wait, that was it. The next time she mentions Thesp is after he's dead.[

I think that should suffice.

[Gaspar]

EBWOP: What issue? Pooky's protown, and I am, too, and you're pointing in the wrong directions. In case you haven't been paying attention,

I have already asked Pooky to flesh out his thoughts on me, Zindaras, and Sarcastro

. Not really sure what you're looking for.

[Gaspar]

You think Thesp wouldn't ass-kiss a scumbuddy? Why? I think he would be trying not to treat his scumbuddies any different to how he treats the townies.

In my experience, talented & experienced players who buddy up to me are somewhat more likely to be scum (such as MoS in a recent game, where he died as scum and I died as town). I've also been shown to not really pay attention to people who aren't pinging on my scumdar but who

At any rate, to address your point: If you're claiming to believe that Thesp treats scumbuddies and townies in the same way, then you're admitting that interactions between Thesp and anybody aren't a strong (or even particularly viable) tell. To say "Well, this seems like something Thesp would do to a townie, but he could have done it to a scumbuddy" or vice versa destroys the whole point of analyzing the interactions.

I already pointed out that Thesp didn't really try to get on anybody's bad side, so I'm mostly looking for what makes you distinguish a Thesp-Glork interaction from, say... Thesp-Talitha or Thesp-CES. Since you were talking about Thesp/Glork using a single post, I took a look at what Thesp said about you:

In fact, Tally, I think he mentioned or interacted with you less than just about anybody. Literally the

ONLY

interactions are where he quotes you and says you win here and indirectly defends you here and here (note also more "let me buddy-buddy up to Glork" behavior in this post as well) while attacking DaniBanani.

...and I took a look at your interactions towards him (which I just cited in the above post).



I guess, to sum up, my ultimate point is that your attacks on me make no sense from my perspective because A) PWS made perfect sense; and B) Your attack based on Glork/Thesp relations is indistinguishable from Thesp's interactions with multiple other living players in the game, yourself included.

[Gaspar]

That's quite the Axis of Evil post. I don't like it one bit. Vote stays on Zindaras; somebody is almost certainly protecting him at this point.

[Gaspar]

OH MY GOD, ZINDARAS IS SUCH SCUM. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, SOMEBODY KILL HIM PLEASE.

He has been one of, if not

the

leading vote-getter all day, except right until now, and he asserts that a claim hasn't been necessary? If Saetel wasn't so damned stubborn, and if MBL/TSS didn't insist on putting their vote somewhere useless (sidenote: This fits with my meta on MBLscum, and I've definitely noted it -- assuming I survive the night, I'll actually go through and point out the specific reference to my meta on him, but for now I'll just point to Mr Stoofer's "Face-To-Face Mafia" in New York -- you can find it all there), you would probably be DEAD already. I mean, I know it doesn't matter because you're scum, but if you're town, you should have claimed long ago so we wouldn't be in yet

ANOTHER

single-digit-hours-to-lynchy situation with nothing in place.

Zindaras, you are

OBVIOUSLY

content to let this town just sit around in their stubborn rifts. No claims, no lynches, keep on killing people off at night. And now, instead of doing something productive, you throw OMGUS at me less than 24 hours before day ends. I cannot believe that other players are so blind to this. It really seriously infuriates me.

[Gaspar]

So I'm wrong for voting my suspicions because it's not helping you steer the lynch where you want it to go? No thanks.

No, you're suspicious because it's the protown thing to do to try to secure a lynch. You have Pooky above Zindaras on your Condorcet, and it is obvious that Tally is not going to be lynched.

By the way, is this MBL or TSS?

[Gaspar]

Why would I want to claim if I were town? Why would I want to give the scum information I don't want them to have?

I'm referring to what has happened over the course of the day, in response to your vote for me. My claims were not "defiant" if you were the leading vote-getter and most likely to get lynched at the time. Instead, you waited it out and now your scumbuddies are probably bailing you out.

My OMGUS is always very person-specific. Look at where these guys are on my Condorcet list: IH and Sarcastro are in the neutral camp, Pooky is even on the town side. This isn't OMGUS, Glorkybuns.

The OMGUS referred to your vote for me (see above on why your reasoning is terrible/wrong -- the bad kind of OMGUS), and it's also a reference to your noted failure to just vote Pooky. There is ZERO reason for you to be the cause of a no-lynch today if you are town. One of the only reasons you would want a no-lynch today if you are scum is if Pooky is your scumbuddy. I don't understand why you're voting for me. It's OMGUS, and it is :nothelpful:


Between yesterday ("Logic claimed, so I made a decision in the end! I wasn't scummy for fence-sitting!") and today ("I didn't need to claim earlier, because

now

I'm not the most likely to get lynched!"), you seem to have a serious problem with thinking that the ends justify the means. I don't buy any of your crap, and I'm disappointed that so many others are just eating it up.

[Gaspar]

Between yesterday ("Logic claimed, so I made a decision in the end! I wasn't scummy for fence-sitting!")

No, I wasn't. I've already linked you to a game where I did a lot worse as town. I'm not one to rush decisions, and

you should know that

.

Eh. If you're anything like me, you've played more than enough games to be able to say to literally anything "but I've done this as town." If you honestly think that waiting until a few minutes before deadline to lay a vote is good for a town, you're delusional. That is an

AWFUL

play philosophy, because

other players need to have time to think and react to whatever decisions you make

. There is no opportunity to make objective post-lynch analyses here, like there was in that nightless game. Making a decision and not allowing a town to adequately talk about that decision is harmful to that town. Period.

[Gaspar]

Oh, that VC remidns me of something else.

Another reason it's good to get your vote down early, Zindie, is that the rest of us can actually look up and plug in voting records to see if we're at a lynch yet. Right now, because I don't know how your vote is going to change, I have

NO IDEA

if "Zindaras moves to Pooky and nobody else changes" will lead to a lynch or not. Had you gotten your vote on record earlier, I (or any other player) would be able to see that quite easily.

[Gaspar]

Impossible.

We're certainly at LyLo. Sarcastro is probably gambiting (though I suspect Zindaras is one of Sarc's scumbuddies so that he can gain credibility).

Before anything else happens, I want Sarcastro to claim fully. He is not going to wrangle a lynch today just by making a "guarantee."

If

the rest of the town

wishes it (i.e., a majority besides Sarc), I will claim before he does. I will say this: I think that my claim will be very clarifying for just about everybody, as far as this game goes.

I also want Setael to unvote simply on the basis that we're at LyLo, and she shouldn't be rushing into a decision if she's town.



Sarc, you really picked the wrong guy to try to gambit against. Had you picked somebody else, I would have quite happily gone along with you.

[Gaspar]

I do believe Sarcastro, a scum wouldn't have felt the need to throw in the arrogant comment

No, that's indicative of Sarc's personality. Read his sig. If you want more evidence of Sarc as an arrogant ass, I will go find further examples if I find myself with the time to do so.

[Gaspar]

Ugh, you idiots.

I am not scum. I am Neutral. My rolename is Auguste Maquet, and my win condition was twofold. I had to find and kill Dantes (which I did), and I have to survive. That's it.

"Mr. Grey" was Dantes. I put two and two together when LmL brought it up, and that's why I gunned so hard for his lynch. The following night, I checked to see if Grey was Dantes, and lo and behold, he was. I was informed by the mod that I had killed Dantes (who was actually posing as our lovely host, Mr. Grey). Note that the ensuing day, I dropped the Grey subject and Grey disappeared from Condorcets altogether. Since then, I've been playing to survive. Look for scum, but try not to find too much success.

I'm telling you all straight up, right now, that if somebody hits Lynch -1, I will hammer without hesitation. That's your fair warning -- if we hit scum, good for all of you. If not and the scums kill someone else, I win anyway.

Assuming you believe my claim (though I figure there will be at least one or two naysayers), I've done my job. You can't lynch me because based on numbers, I'd almost guarantee 3 Mafia, me, and 5 protown players left. Scum would nightkill and the town would lose. Mafia won't kill me because if they can wrangle a Lynch-1 situation on a townie, I hand them the victory.


Sarc, your claim that I was "weakly" busing Zindaras is ridiculous. I spent the better part of two days going primarily after Zindie, and I ridiculed people for not lynching him. I agree that his play has been terrible and that he's almost certainly scum. Hell, I've been stating it at least as long as anybody else around here.

[Gaspar]

Er check that, four protown players left. Go go math major.

[Gaspar]

Gaspar
DaniBanani/MoS/Sarc

Kay this will be a mini pbp of GaspGlorkPodSpar.

(Glork.)

Mgm, it makes ZERO sense as a scum ability. Once the duel had happened and nobody died, what do you think would be each player's alignment?

If Cubs were scum and failed to daykill LmL, does that mean LmL is scum? That's a silly ability.... if Cubs were lynched that day (which he was), he would have outed his scumbuddy.
If Cubs were scum and had daykilled LmL as town, he'd be outed for sure (for claiming he only kills if his opponent is scum). If Cubs were scum and killed LmL as scum, it would only make sense if there were multiple scumgroups. Not ruling that out as a possiblity, but I see that as something of a ridiculous stretch to conclude this early on.

I guess I could see the case where Cubs were an SK with an extra scumkilling daykill, but that seems like a bit of a stretch as well. And I would have to question whether you honestly could have believed that that was the case.


Needless to say, my top suspects remain approximately the same.
Vote: Adele, [Mgm, Xyzzy], [other people], No Lynch, LoudmouthLee, Gaspar

Does anybody notice what I noticed? Notice LML, with Gaspar confirming him as town. I didn't really catch that vibe from this post at all.....

I "confirmed" LmL as town because of exactly what I stated. Cubsfan's claim and ability made no sense as a scum ability, so he had to be telling the truth. Given that LmL didn't die, I concluded that LmL wasn't scum.

Okay, well that would change the validity of your argument. I didn't know that your response was based on experience with Thesp as a lyncher. I had concluded that it was "You're going after me hard, but you're wrong so you must be scum" which would indeed have been OMGUS.

Slight connection so far.

How?
I asked Dani how he could've been thinking "Lyncher" and he explained a connection between this and past behavior. I didn't previously know about that past behavior, but it is perfectly consistent with Dani's conclusion and why nobody else would have come to that conclusion.

I don't like the Primate Glork disagreement anymore. It seems.... staged. = |

It wasn't. We'll both tell you in postgame that we disagreed on just about everything. Fortunately, Primate pretty much let me take the lead on this one.

Gaspar why did you concentrate so hard on experimenting?

See claim.

I'd be up for wagoning some fools and forcing some claims right about now. If there are three Parisian Mafiates left, we're only a single mislynch removed from LyLo, potentially. Like Pooky said, yesterday's No-Lynch was pretty terrible, and there are a lot of people who seem to be content sitting on the sidelines and watching. The more I think about it, the more it bothers me... minus points for TSS, Zindie, Sarc, and DP. Consequently, it's time for a Condorcet update:

Unvote
Vote: the silent speaker, Zindaras, DP, Talitha, Sarcastro, Foolinc, Saetel, Pooky, IH, No Lynch, Gaspar

Suspicion enters here, but Sarc is still below the other three he mentions AND talitha. Why was Talitha above Sarc here?

Sarc moved up for his noncontribution, but given how protown I had seen MoS/Dani, I wasn't willing to jump him to the top of my list. Tally was still hellascummy (I wouldn't expect

all

of the scums to be lurking, noncontributive bastards), so the order makes perfect sense to me.

He also points out about Sarc's omgus attack a little bit later. For Dani you thought that was protown, but now you think it's scummy? DId you think it was scummy? Why?

Sarc has rubbed me the wrong way, and I'm not entirely sure why. I do think hsi attack was OMGUS, but I don't believe I stated he was scummy because of it. I could be misremembering, though.

Unvote
Vote: Zindaras, Talitha, DragonPhoenix, SilentLee, [foolinc, IH, Pooky, Sarcastro, Setael], No Lynch, Gaspar

Glork's 143rd post. Why is Sarc suddenly down with me, foolinc, Pooky, and Setael?

I'm pretty sure this had to do with altering Condorcet numbers.

Something in Sarc's play reminds me of the way CES said "I'm going to follow your lead regarding MBL" to me in Face-To-Face Mafia. Both CES and MBL were scum. I'm not really all that convinced there's a direct parallel (mostly because I don't find Sarc's predecessors to be all that scummy), but the thought just occurred to me, and I feel like pointing it out. Even though Sarc has said he's having issues with reading people in the game, I'd like to see, before day's end, a rundown of his thoughts on each player, as best as he can give them. This applies paricularly to the folks he hasn't really mentioned so far.

...this sounds like he has a thinly veiled suspicion of Sarc, but... Sarc is still with the "relatively protown players", right?

It's more like "I just made this observation, but I'm not willing to say that it's indicative of somebody being scum."

[Gaspar]

...btw, meetings for next two hours, then errands, etc. I'll be back in ~6 hours max.

[Gaspar]

I'm telling you all straight up, right now, that if somebody hits Lynch -1, I will hammer without hesitation. That's your fair warning

Then why are you convincing players to unvote, slowing down the wagon?

Because if a Zindie quicklynch had gone through and somebody had vigged me or something, I would have lost. I needed to explain myself and I've been short on time as of late. Also, if Sarc was hinting information, I needed to know what kind of information -- Cop, Gunsmith, etc -- so that I could tell if he was lying scum or not.

[Gaspar]

Tally: The real Grey lives. Dantes is dead. If you want evidence that he stopped showing up in Condorcets, IH voted for Grey in Post 1415, and in Post 1431, there is a vote count in which Grey does not show up. (See the txt file associated with the 1431 VC here.)

Anyway, until I killed him, Dantes was posing as Grey but was voteable, lynchable, targetable, etc. Now that I killed Dantes and the

real

Mr. Grey is with us, he's just your typical untouchable moderator. It's all flavor to support the mechanics of my role.'


Also, this:

I don't buy a neutral in this game. Gaspar hasn't been playing like someone who must only survive the game to win.

is preposterous. In my only other game as a Survivor, McDonald's Mafia, I sought to find scum and

pegged all three scumbags on Day One of the game

. I realize that my style of playing Survivor roles doesn't fit with the norm, but I try to be as protown as possible (funny how that works) without making myself an obvious kill target.

Examples of posts I made in McD's

AFTER

I claimed (here):
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 900#539900
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 881#548881
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 574#549574
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 943#549943
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 178#563178
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 348#567348

I have never been a low-profile player, and changing that as a Survivor would almost certainly bring

more

attention to me, Tally. I realize full well that my play does not congeal to the "typical" Survivor role. But I am far from your typical mafia player.


Also, if I were scum, I'd have had to be preparing my roleclaim since I first made the decision to go after Grey, not "last night." And I would have had to know that the scumgroup could have killed Grey. And I would have had to convince the scumgroup that Grey was worth nightkilling as an NPC. Your theory that I'm scum relies on so many variables that just don't make sense, it's a wonder you believe it could hold any water whatsoever. I won't deny that, if the Parisian Mafia consists of who we would guess, they'd have an interest in seeing Dantes dead... but especially after LmL showed up as the SK, Grey/Dantes did not appear to pose any realistic threat, and choosing to kill him rather than an active threat (i.e., VitaminR) is a ridiculous insinuation.

By the way, I should also point out that in my first post after Grey was killed, I started it with "Well. Now that that's over with..." as a weak hint-drop that Grey was no more and that I could focus on not getting lynched or nightkilled.

Finally, regarding PWS -- there is zero evidence to back up your stance. It is just as likely that, if PWS kept making "Hi, I'm here and not following the thread" posts, he would have just picked up a lot of attention that he would not have been able to fend off. And then he'd have gotten lynched and then he'd have lost. I'd really like to know exactly where you got this "loyalty to scumbuddies" sentiment.

[Gaspar]

Oh, I forgot about Shrek Mafia (where I replaced into the game as a Survivor Mason). Same deal there, except I only claimed Mason. I still behaved as distinctly protown as possible, for obvious reasons. I was still just as vocal as anybody else. I'm too lazy/busy to go find another set of quotes, so you can hunt them down yourself if you feel it is necessary.

[Gaspar]

So I just found out earlier today that I'm likely going to be in Indianapolis Fri-Sun, possibly without the use of a computer. This is an obligatory post for the usual obligatory reasons.


Needless to say, I'm okay with lynching Zindie. Now granted, I'm okay with lynching anybody who isn't me, but I honestly do believe he is scum.

[Gaspar]

Gaspar - If you had checked Cubs when he was still alive, do you think that would have also done the job of "killing Dantes"?

I am almost positive that the answer here would have been 'no.' I don't know what's going on with the "multiple Dantes" thing, but what I do know is that after Night Three, I asked the mod if I needed to keep targeting people at night and he told me I did not.

Why has no Dantes body shown up? Why did your role want to kill Dantes. What's the flavour?

Okay... first, flavor of the kill, as revealed to me via PM:
I snuck through the mansion, eventually found Mr. Grey's room, awoke him, he told me it's not safe, I called him Dantes, he fliched, he goes on about some poetic justice for bringing everyone here, I shoot him, another Mr. Grey shows up, I pull a WTF?, Grey says that I killed

Dantes

, another guest -- not Mr. Grey himself. I try to shoot Grey but fail. He tells me that he cannot be killed and to go back to bed.

As far as why this wasn't revealed to the rest of the town, I can only speculate. I believe he could have been targeted/killed by somebody else, although I have no idea what would have happened with revelation of his death. My role just states that I want Dantes dead, so this leads me to believe that A) others can target/kill him; and B) at the very least, I would be informed of his death.

Now, as far as flavor of my role in general goes: I find myself in a mysterious place with mysterious people, but I recognize some as being from one of the books I co-wrote. Concluding that Dantes is likely the mastermind behind this odd sequence of events, I decide that offing him would fix everything. In the meantime, I need to cover my own ass.

Were you the only one who could kill Dantes?

Again, don't think so, but there's nothing firmly indicative either way, and I never bothered to ask. I had assumed that others could kill him because up until the day before I did kill him, I figured Dantes was a regular player.

Does any of this explain why Cubs showed up as someone else on death?

Y'know, this thought literally

just

popped into my head as I was typing the first paragraph.
I'd be willing to bet that others were made to believe that they were Dantes partially as red herrings to my own role. It'd keep me running around a bit longer, and it does give everyone something to think about.

Gaspar - Who are the scum here, in your neutral opinion?

You actually move down on my scumlist, being the only person to actually investigate my role flavor/mechanics thoroughly. I was pleasantly surprised that so many took it at face value, but I'd generally expect protown players to want to dig a little deeper.
Right now, I'd say Zindaras, DragonPhoenix, and SilentLee. Sarcastro is sortof a wild card here, IH gets bonus points for being a Fresnonite or whatever he is, and Setael's play just strikes me as being distinctly protown. (I decided, in retrospect, that her mistaking LmL for teamscum is almost certaintly a protown oversight and not an attempt to mislead as scum.)

If I had to make a Condorcet right now, it'd look about like this:
Zindaras, DP, SiLee, Sarc, Tally, [IH, Setael], No Lynch, Gaspar

Gaspar, does your role PM give any clue about the number of Dantes in the game?

It does not, but as I said before, when I asked if I needed to keep searching and was told no, that pretty much confirms that there are no living Danteses (which is why I consider Sarc to be a wild card -- either he's lying through his teeth, or there's some subtle-but-significant difference between being Dantes himself or being the Count, #34, etc.)...

I've just seen Tamuz-voting-Grey and him appearing in the Condorcet as a very, very fortunate sequence-of-events for me. I suppose that, if I survived to near-endgame and had checked all of the living unknown players, I could see myself targeting Grey. DP, being the resident mod-role mastermind, may be able to share some insight into the psychology and mechanics of having an NPC in a game.

[Gaspar]

what I do know is that after Night Three, I asked the mod if I needed to keep targeting people at night and he told me I did not.

Check that, I asked him this during Day Four, after IH had done his Dantes-incarnation speculation, not right when I killed Dantes. I just want to make sure that's not confusing anybody because I just said "after Night Three."

[Gaspar]

Not really. The mafia has less reason to kill me than any protown player because, as I said earlier, any Lynch -1 will see me hammering immediately. Even if I help lynch scum today, they still have the "If we get Lynch-1 on a townie, Gaspar will hammer that townie" tomorrow.

I'm about 75% sure that I'm going to win regardless of what happens from here on out, and I run the risk of appearing shady if I don't come truthful to the protown players 'round here.

[Gaspar]

Gaspar, you have a kill? You seem to imply it in your above post.

If so, what were your targets?

I wouldn't say that I "have a kill" exactly. I would only have killed if I targeted Dantes.

N1 I targeted Pooky more or less randomly.
N2 I targeted Skruffs because he had soft-claimed power and I guessed Dantes would be a power role of some kind.
N3 I targeted Grey. Results obvobv.

[Gaspar]

CrapCrapCrap. With Sarc's claim, I suddenly feel less confident in my ability to, um... live. You aren't by any chance considering vigging

me

, are you Sarc?

One thing I do want to ask about, though -- Why would you rather have the day end in a post where you hammer and kill? Why not just kill Zindaras now and be done with that and get us going on the next scumbag?

DGB: You should be claiming immediately, as your predecessor disappeared from the game without so much as a word on his role, and there are easily five people who would be happy with his death right now (including the person who can apparently make him dead in a heartbeat -- Sarcastro).


Also, I think I know exactly where Sarc's daykill came from. I declined a similar opportunity yesterday, fearing a trick resulting in poisoning.

[Gaspar]

Mod: In the hypothetical situation of 2x+1 players alive, with x protown players, x mafia members, and 1 survivor, would the game continue or end immediately?

Please see the Post Content section of the rules regarding asking questions of the Mod.

[Gaspar]

Feh. (By the way, sorry for the triple-post.)

I suppose my hands are tied. The best I can hope for is to cut a deal with Sarc. If he promises to leave me be, I'm bound to play as a protown player from here on out. I've expressed this sentiment in the past -- that once Survivor claims, he must essentially be protown or he destroys the meta towards him and the Survivor role in future games. I'm basically counting on Sarc to trust that I'll keep to my word and not screw you guys over, because I'm pretty sure that I'm the strategic vig of the day.

This sucks. I was quite confident that I'd locked up a victory. Now, unless Sarc is willing to throw me a bone, I'm probably going to lose... because of something allegedly random and entirely out of my control.

[Gaspar]

DGB, I claimed several pages ago *WITH* rolename AND flavor. It's obvious that you haven't read a word of the game.


Anyway, you need to claim. NOW. Sarc, Setael, Glork, DP, Tally, and IH all have expressed a strong desire to have you killed.

[Gaspar]

Okay, that makes me feel infinitely better.

I know you can't just take my word at face value on this, but given that there's a daykill, I pretty much am forced to promise (and follow through on my promise, if I want to preserve my integrity as a player) not to do the whole hammer thing. As a show of goodwill, I can vote Zindie/DGB and you can unvote, so that Lynch-1 will occur with me already on the wagon.

[Gaspar]

Heh. Results?

Also, here, here, and here.

[Gaspar]

'kay.


Needless to say, I am skeptical of the claim. Pooky and I both made it explicitly clear yesterday that information roles were to claim before LyLo. I believe that Zindaras would have adhered to that philosophy as town, and he obviously didn't claim.

[Gaspar]

Vote: DrippingGoofball

[Gaspar]

....d'you think there's a second Doc out there, Setael?

[Gaspar]

So... I think I am going to start taking odds on whether SiLee shows up to post or ends up getting replaced himself in the next eight hours or whatever it is. This is getting a bit ridiculous and in the meantime, we're wasting our time. Can we have DP claim in the meantime or something?

[Gaspar]

Unless I missed it, Sarc never claimed his role ability -- only that he's #34 and has a daykill today that has nothing to do with his actual role.

SiLee's claim is interesting. Obviously at least one of DGB/Gaspar is lying scum, and at least one of DGB/SiLee is lying scum. I'm undecided on whether I believe SiLee's claim or not, but since I know DGB is obvlyingscum, my vote stays where it is.

[Gaspar]

Sarc, IH claimed to be some form of "Innocent Fresnonite" (I forget what specifically, and I'm too lazy to go back and look) back on Day 2 or 3. Implication is townie, though I suppose it couldn't hurt to have him verify that.

[Gaspar]

Wow, I managed to miss that Setael posted that exact same thing over an hour ago. That's what I get for not refreshing the page.

[Gaspar]

....and you, Sarc.


Interesting to note that DGB switched from me to SiLee after the claim. Her claimed results

directly

conflict with my claimed role, yet there's a possibility (however slim it may be) that DGB/SiLee are both as they claim. You'd think that DGB would stick to the person who is, from her perspective a guaranteed liar (and therefore almost certainly scum).

[Gaspar]

Interesting.... a third hideresque claim.

I am thinking that DGB is almost certainly scum, and one of SiLee/DP

probably

is scum. Having those three as the scumbags would be bold -- probably a little too bold to be reaslistic. There is the possibility that DP and SiLee are both telling the truth to some degree. I am wondering if one of them has an ability like or identical to what they've claimed but is actually a scumbag anyway. It's really interesting that both are limited in some way -- SiLee can allegedly hide at most every other night, and DP has a net number of nights during which he can hide. DP's fits in with Sarc's role (and as another potential red herring to my role).

What gets me right now is that there's no claimed gift-giver. Pooky was lynched during the day yesterday, and Foolinc was nightkilled as a regular claimed Doctor. None of the living players (except Sarc) have admitted to being the gift-giver, and I don't expect that Sarc could gift himself (especially as he stated the kill has nothing to do with his role). This

greatly

concerns me. That means that the person sending gifts, for some reason, saw fit not to claim, which would indicate a scum role.

I can't work my head around why the gift-giver wouldn't claim as such. My first reaction was "oh no, they're going to think I did it," but I can't understand it from any perspective -- protown, mafiascum, or independent (whether neutral or scum). If town, there's ZERO reason to lie about it. If scum, it's a very easy fakeclaim to make -- just keep targeting people whom you have called protown. On the other hand, as scum I can't imagine the role existing unless the chance to kill was at least 50%, in which case the claim would have to fudge numbers -- equal chances to grant investigation, day/night cycle roleblock, extra vote, dayvig, or to kill -- something like that.

Tally, what are your thoughts regarding Sarc's mysteriously granted daykill and why nobody claimed responsibility?

[Gaspar]

I haven't used my secret word and I don't think either Primate or PWS did either. Truth be told, I forgot I had one for most of the game.

I agree that ZZ's death and Tamuz's death are almost certainly unrelated. In fact, Tamuz posted before he died that he was Logic's lover, so there is no reason to conclude anything different.

I want Sarc to claim fully, and I want him to kill DGB. I'd also like him to paraphrase the flavor of the PM he got regarding his gift -- as far as I can tell, what happened to him is exactly what happened to me at the start of yesterday, but I'm curious to know if our gift-giver is being consistent or not. That might be a big clue regarding motive or intent.

[Gaspar]

I think a vig kill of DGB would be stellar right now since if she comes up scum, it would clear both Sarcastro and Gaspar as townies.

Just to caution you, DGB being dirty lying scum does not clear either Sarc or myself.


I still think there's an approximately 50% chance that we hit scum if we lynch one of DP/SiLee. The other scumbag is probably one of Setael/Tally. IH and Sarc are almost certainly protown at this point.

[Gaspar]

Not really, Tally. I've seen scums counterclaim the counterclaim. I'd rather lynch based on whom I believe is more likely to be scum (both on individual tells and in relation to Thesp/Zindaras). That's what I'm mulling over right now.

[Gaspar]

Regarding the gift: The message I got had said the same thing, minus the "nobody has accepted my offer yet" part. It said something about purchasing the product to use, which at first made me think I could buy some but not use it. That's about it.

[Gaspar]

Perhaps I should be letting Sarc answer for himself, but I'm going to guess that this from 1901 answers your question:

I believe Gaspar, though.

[Gaspar]

EBWOP: Looking at the list of people from Fresno... it's alphabetical by last name, Setael. Of course Ickey Woods is near the bottom.

[Gaspar]

Because the "way down on the list" bit seemed completely irrelevant (and thus entnirely unnecessary as part of your case against her claim) given the organization of the list, and I felt the need to point that out? I'm not defending any of the important parts of the claim (i.e., the character or Townie claim), and I don't think that Tally could possibly have responded in any incriminating fashion. (In fact, I would expect her to make the same observation that I just did. And if not -- regardless of her alignment -- she'd have no choice but to stand by the nameclaim.)

Based on your reaction to my observation, you seem to want to try to trip her up somehow, even if it's through dubious tactics such as questioning the "Ickey Woods" claim based on position on an alphabetical list.



IH, I think you ought to be giving your input as to whom you believe are the most likely scumbags still remaining.

[Gaspar]

Since we need 25 words per post not including voting actions, I have decided that I shall make an obligatory statement in order to allow this post to count towards my limits. SiLee/Setael is looking good enough to me right now. Let's rock and roll.

Vote: SilentLee

, Setael, [Talitha, DragonPhoenix], [IH, Sarcastro], No Lynch, Gaspar

[Gaspar]

I'm curious to know why you think I'm "blindly following DP." Your reactions to the pressure on SilentLee and your earlier attitude has me pretty convinced that

you're

trying to protect

him

. Now you're eschewing a Tallyvote in favor of the only non-SiLee person with a vote -- DP. I'm only drawing the natural conclusion here.

Also, you seem to be ignoring my claim and all of the evidence pointing to it in favor of an assumption that me moving on SiLee is indicative of me being scum with DP. What do you think of my claim? Of Mr. Grey's existence and disappearance?

[Gaspar]

....because we both suspect a SilentLee/Setael pairing?

[Gaspar]

No, you said it was a possibility, and only discussed in the scope of you being right about DGB being town:

So if I'm right about DGB, Gaspar is scum because he was found out of bed last night. The neutral claim is not true, though he may have had a task as mafia to kill the real Dantes.

[Gaspar]

...without having your own reasoning for it.

Oh? So you making a stink over Tally when she voiced suspicion of you, demanding why I 'defended' her when I questioned the irrelevant inclusion of your attack, and reaction to DP (from "your claim is likely to be in the game" to voting him second after he voted you) have

NOTHING

to do with it?

[Gaspar]

After defending DGB until she died, you're now jumping at anything that moves and isn't named SilentLee. You've especially focused on people who suspected you and/or SilentLee, which indicates both OMGUS and protection of another scumbuddy.

I think it's pretty much a foregone conclusion that the town will win if we hit scum today, so right now is when you've got to give it your all and hope that I'll screw them over in endgame tomorrow. That's how I'm seeing things.