LoL eSports Discussion

[mykonian]

This isn't really a great comparison because a lot of what holds the MLS back is the salary cap. There are clubs that could fork over more money to buy more international talent (LA Galaxy and NYCFC are pretty loaded), but the salary cap and the wonky rules around it with designated players and funny money limit how much clubs can bring in "top players" to bolster their rosters. You could also argue that international slots, to a degree, hold back the MLS, but that would really only be a compelling argument if the salary cap weren't already such a big hamper.

it's a retirement home for top players atm, who rake in some more money after a succesful carreer. Really don't think a salary cap is the issue, exposure and competition is.

Going back to the soccer thing, look at Michael Bradley. He'd probably be a better player if he stayed in Europe, but $6.5m Canadian/yr was too hard to pass up.

See, salary cap isn't the issue. Bradley had the name (bc lets be honest, I've seen him play, not an exceptional talent), and cashed out on it.

Which is why I think the comparison is rather apt. Do you think Piglet, or Ryu, or Deft left Korea, because they had some will to compete at the highest level? Neither do the Europeans who move over to the states in football. Ryu wanted an easier route to worlds, maybe Piglet too, but lets be fair, money played into it. And we'll still watch EULCS and NALCS with the same amount interest, even when they are playing worse. It doesn't make those leagues pointless, because your team plays in it and you get your Phreak puns.

[zoraster]

Yeah, it's not new either. I have some signed stuff from Pele from when my great grandmother met him on a plane during his time in the North American Soccer League.

The MLS is pretty wise to have a salary cap, I think.

One other thing to consider is that a big problem with professional league at the moment is player longevity. Because it's not a physical sport, there's a large drive to practice 14 hours a day. That's fairly effective on a short term basis, but over time it makes participating at the top level difficult. My understanding is that Korea is particularly bad in this regard. Coming to North America where they're required to play relatively less can be attractive from a potential burnout standpoint, with the knowledge that even if you "only" play and practice 10 hours a day, 6 days a week you're going to be an effective player within the league.

Think about it: the dream for most people working is more money earned in less time.

[BROseidon]

it's a retirement home for top players atm, who rake in some more money after a succesful carreer. Really don't think a salary cap is the issue, exposure and competition is.

How's the view from like 3 years ago?

Hard to call the MLS a retirement home when you have Altidore, Bradley, and Giovinco all

on the same team

, among other arguments that this is becoming less true.

[BROseidon]

See, salary cap isn't the issue. Bradley had the name (bc lets be honest, I've seen him play, not an exceptional talent), and cashed out on it.

He cashed out at 27, though. That's a pretty early retirement. The drop in competition has also definitely hurt his play - he's playing substantially worse now than he was 2-3 years ago. Klinsmann playing him out of position 1/2 the time doesn't really help, but Bradley does himself no favors (I'm personally in favor of giving his starting spot on the USMNT to Kitchen at this point, since Kitchen is defensively a lot stronger, even if he lacks some of the creativity that Bradley theoretically provides).

You're right that money buys talent, but the difference b/w NALCS and MLS is that the NALCS is the second highest paying league. MLS has a salary cap literally lower than what some players make, and very limited rules to help teams kind of get around it.

[BROseidon]

The MLS is pretty wise to have a salary cap, I think.

Forced parity is good for building a fan base. Every MLS Cup final being LA Galaxy/Seattle Sounders vs. NYCFC or Toronto FC, with Orlando or NYRB able to occasionally break through would be really boring.

Although tbf that's basically what's happening to League.

[zoraster]

it's a retirement home for top players atm, who rake in some more money after a succesful carreer. Really don't think a salary cap is the issue, exposure and competition is.

How's the view from like 3 years ago?

Hard to call the MLS a retirement home when you have Altidore, Bradley, and Giovinco all

on the same team

, among other arguments that this is becoming less true.

I think Giovinco is the only one there that helps prove your point. Altidore and Bradley have a geographic reason to be there.

[PJ.]

You mean serie a washout sebastian giovinco?

[Voidedmafia]

Although tbf that's basically what's happening to League.

But how much of that is because TSM/C9/CLG/IMT have the best people possible (and therefore lower teams have lesser people who can't match up) or because lower teams don't have a certain something or somethings to make them be able to truly reach for the finals? Honest question because I don't know (though I'm not trying to say it's not because teams like TSM just have the near-objectively better players since I think Bjergsen and Sven and Doublelift are some of the best if not the best players in NA in their roles)

...if that wasn't clear, is it a lack of player talent or an inability to properly foster and develop good teams?

[zoraster]

Well, IMT is new this year so at least for that one it answers your question.

[mykonian]

Hard to call the MLS a retirement home when you have Altidore, Bradley, and Giovinco all on the same team, among other arguments that this is becoming less true.

I've seen two of these a couple of seasons as they got picked up in Europe. Not straight to the main competitions, and Altidore in fairness never made it. He was a striker of a subtop team in the eredivisie, of which you haven't heard, wasn't the star, was a decently hard worker when his trainer got his head into it. Tried a major league (Great Brittain) and failed. Bradley was a stable piece in the same competition, the eredivisie, with a team of similar standing, and made it to the big leagues after, Italy, Germany. Never on the top teams, just below that, never the star of his team either, but a hard worker and you need those as well. He had a good carreer.. and now he's in his football retirement home. He can be proud of what he achieved.

Your glasses have stars and stripes here Bro

[PJ.]

To be fair, Altidor is only 26 years old. We're not even certain if he's a finished product let alone a declining one. Giovinco and Bradley are 29 and probably each have 1 more big contract coming. Bradley could certainly be in a more distinguished league basically doing the same thing he was doing in the beginning g of his career, being a serviceable defense minded central midfielder with a mid table team, he's just decided not to.

[mykonian]

eh, if Altidore had ambition, he wouldn't be in the MLS. This should be his prime. He has tried, and it didn't work out. He's the talent that could never quite deliver.

[BROseidon]

it's a retirement home for top players atm, who rake in some more money after a succesful carreer. Really don't think a salary cap is the issue, exposure and competition is.

How's the view from like 3 years ago?

Hard to call the MLS a retirement home when you have Altidore, Bradley, and Giovinco all

on the same team

, among other arguments that this is becoming less true.

I think Giovinco is the only one there that helps prove your point. Altidore and Bradley have a geographic reason to be there.

The point is that teams in the MLS are starting to have more than 1 incredibly good player, and they aren't just ancient. Toronto FC's the most stacked in this regard, but you've got Lodeiro+Morris in Seattle. You have Birnbaum+Lucho+Hamid+Mullins at DCU. You have Kljestan and Wright-Philips at NYRB. Yeah, teams that are mid-table in the EPL, Serie A, Bundesliga, etc, are comprised entirely of players this good, but those are leagues that pay way, way more with clubs that have been around for way longer (NYCFC's literally been around for 2 years, and yeah they've started with "retirement home" with Villa/Pirlo, but they've got the money to be more interesting as the MLS continues to grow).

If you want to just talk about non-US players, beyond Giovinco there's Lodeiro, Valeri, Wright-Philips, LUCHO, Adi, Afful, Ciman (although he came over at 30), etc. The MLS is starting to get very good international talent that isn't just there to retire.

[BROseidon]

You mean serie a washout sebastian giovinco?

Yeah, he wasn't good at Juventus, but he was pretty fucking good while on loan. Who you play around and what system you play in can matter a lot, especially for guys like Giovinco.

[BROseidon]

Hard to call the MLS a retirement home when you have Altidore, Bradley, and Giovinco all on the same team, among other arguments that this is becoming less true.

I've seen two of these a couple of seasons as they got picked up in Europe. Not straight to the main competitions, and Altidore in fairness never made it. He was a striker of a subtop team in the eredivisie, of which you haven't heard, wasn't the star, was a decently hard worker when his trainer got his head into it.

Uh, of course I've heard of the Eredivisie. One, my sister lives in the Netherlands; two, I'm currently managing PEC Zwolle in FM; three, it's super condescending to assume that someone hasn't heard of the Eredivisie because of course I have.

39 goals in 67 appearances at AZ is... actually good? AZ also finished 4th and 10th, which, while not amazing, is still pretty good.

Tried a major league (Great Brittain) and failed.

Yeah, he wasn't quite up to snuff for Sunderland for w/e reason. That said, he's kind of pulled the opposite of Bradley, where he's looking like he's still getting better, even with the "subpar" competition of the MLS.

Bradley was a stable piece in the same competition, the eredivisie, with a team of similar standing, and made it to the big leagues after, Italy, Germany. Never on the top teams, just below that, never the star of his team either, but a hard worker and you need those as well. He had a good carreer.. and now he's in his football retirement home. He can be proud of what he achieved.

Except he hasn't retired - he's still trying. He prioritized money over being the absolute best footballer he could, but he's still out there giving his all and contributing for Toronto and for the USMNT (as much as his USMNT performances have been lackluster recently)

Your glasses have stars and stripes here Bro

I think you're misinterpreting what I'm saying. I'm saying that calling the MLS purely a retirement home for star players is a dated reference - we were definitely that several years ago, but the league is improving in terms of the quality of international talent it's attracting, when it's attracting that talent, and the quality of US players staying in the MLS (a good chunk of the USMNT still plays in the MLS, and a few of them have actually been BETTER in the MLS than in Europe for some reason). Nevertheless, there's an upper limit on how good the MLS can really get, put in place by the salary cap.

[BROseidon]

eh, if Altidore had ambition, he wouldn't be in the MLS. This should be his prime. He has tried, and it didn't work out. He's the talent that could never quite deliver.

Altidore's been playing the best he's ever played the past 6 months, though. This isn't a phenomenon unique to him, either (look at Kljestan since he's come to NYRB).

Playing against better players is better for some people (Bradley's clearly declined the past few years), but for others, it's more important to be in a team setup where they can play confidently.

[mykonian]

three, it's super condescending to assume that someone hasn't heard of the Eredivisie

yes, but to who or what?

That league is irrelevant.

[BROseidon]

I mean, to me specifically in this context.

Eredivisie isn't EPL/La Liga/Bundesliga/Serie A/Ligue 1, but it's still a 2nd-tier competition.

[BROseidon]

Like, saying that "all competitions that aren't the very best ones don't matter" is pretty gross.

[BROseidon]

Also, weirdly enough, in my FM file, by 2022 (when I moved from DCU to PEC Zwolle), MLS was a more competitive/better league than the Eredivisie, despite the salary cap still being a thing in the MLS.

I think it had to do mostly with the US producing bizarrely good regens at that point.

[mykonian]

But if your only European success is a mid tier team in a 2nd tier competition, where as a striker you manage to score goals with Beerens on your flank (not to say he's great but with multiple strikers he delivered a silly amount of assists, serviceable winger) and Maher or Maartens behind you (and there was no doubt, Maher, a teenager, hardcarried that team after Maartens got injured), I am quite happy to call that a failure, yes.

I mean, to get back on topic, you say he looks good now in his comfortable league. So did TSM's botlane in NA LCS. You can't have it both ways, the level can't be great bc you have 3 "great players" in one team, while they only look good because they are in your league playing whoever.

[BROseidon]

The difference between League of Legends and Football is that one of those is the largest sport in the world where there is a much larger range of competitions, and the other is absolutely tiny.

The NALCS isn't equivalent to the Eredivisie or even MLS right now. It's equivalent to, like, the Hyundai A-League.

[BROseidon]

If even that tbh.

[BROseidon]

Actually I like TSM-as-Saprissa, so NALCS=Costa Rica

[Voidedmafia]

Like, saying that "all competitions that aren't the very best ones don't matter" is pretty gross.

To go back to my original point, would saying "competitions that aren't the very best can be difficult to feel incentivzed to support" be less gross?

To another point: Can I say Bjergsen is the Dade of 2016?