Mini Normal #1838 - Game Over

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Post Post #1650  (ISO)  » Mon Oct 17, 2016 9:05 pm

I agree that PP's end of the day yesterday is bad but I don't think it's all that scummy, maybe a bit. He mostly just looks disengaged to me, and that's null. I still think his early game was very townish.

@Grendel, I can somewhat see boring's read change as being not cautious enough for scum. I don't think that's nearly enough of a point in her favor to balance out all of the things that I've found scummy from her, a couple of which you paraphrased quite nicely.
Zoronos wrote:However, he doesn't spend a lot of time actually prosecuting his scum read on Boring (that's where his vote was),

I question this characterization of my play yesterday. I felt like I was beating a dead horse essentially writing essays on how scummy.

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Post Post #1651  (ISO)  » Mon Oct 17, 2016 9:11 pm

@dierfire: last think I see you say about boring is that you've read up on her but don't find anything really alignment indicative. What do you think of her after the eager+maria townflips, and/or why don't you agree with my points on her?

@LUV: can you elaborate on why you disagree with the case on boring? Can you elaborate on your null-scum read on prism, and on your scumread of penguin (is it just lingering things from long ago, or is it more strongly based on his recent posting)?

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Post Post #1652  (ISO)  » Mon Oct 17, 2016 9:15 pm

In post 1650, implosion wrote:I agree that PP's end of the day yesterday is bad but I don't think it's all that scummy, maybe a bit. He mostly just looks disengaged to me, and that's null. I still think his early game was very townish.

@Grendel, I can somewhat see boring's read change as being not cautious enough for scum. I don't think that's nearly enough of a point in her favor to balance out all of the things that I've found scummy from her, a couple of which you paraphrased quite nicely.
Zoronos wrote:However, he doesn't spend a lot of time actually prosecuting his scum read on Boring (that's where his vote was),

I question this characterization of my play yesterday. I felt like I was beating a dead horse essentially writing essays on how scummy.


Your definition of bad and my definition of scummy seem to overlap. Was my case wrong? Where was he scum hunting? Where was he making effort to solve the game rather than just parking his vote? Where did he explore Eager's alignment?

If he had a towny early game, point those out.

--------------------------

The first post was largely projection, NAI, and tone.
The second and third posts were largely defensive, in my estimation. You were justifying your own play, not trying to either explore Boring, or convince other people to vote boring. Your third post is also more tone / playstyle stuff.
Personally, my rule is 'talk to people like they're town, talk about them like they're [alignment]', so attacking Boring on the basis of "Your tone doesn't match your read" when she's interacting with the person she has a read on is classic NAI, and is either bad play or outright scummy. Frankly, I think almost all 'tone' argument are scummy, so your reliance on them is disturbing.

A towny line of play would have been to explore borings alignment, then to talk to the rest of the game about how they should be voting boring. You didn't do that.
You mostly argued with boring that yes she totally was scummy and defended yourself from the rest of the folks.

However, I think she's scummier than you are and I doubt you two are scum together, so I am granting you reprieve until such juncture as I change my mind.

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Post Post #1653  (ISO)  » Mon Oct 17, 2016 9:21 pm

I think if I were to put my dissatisfaction with Implosion into words it'd be that so far today he has more energy into shaming shadow, and treating Eagar, and MariaR like martyrs then progressing the game state. Treating Snake like he was Ob!town when he wasn't. Frustration could be real, but the townness behind it isn't there.

Also, late into yesterday he also fixated lots of energy on "Eager and Shadow are town!", the only moves outside of that was his boring case work, and interacting with players reflexively, ei they made the first move. Lots of busy work to make himself real shiny is what I saw.

Pre edit: Speak of the devil.
Wish you were on earlier then this. I actually have to get off in a sec.

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Post Post #1654  (ISO)  » Mon Oct 17, 2016 9:47 pm

Official Vote Count 2.04
LynchingWith 11 votes in play, it takes 6 to lynch.

Lil Uzi Vert (2): boring, Gamma Emerald
Gamma Emerald (2): Shadow_step, Zoronos
boring (1): implosion

Not Voting (6): Dierfire, Lil Uzi Vert, PenguinPower, Grendel, nn30, Prism


Deadline: (expired on 2016-10-30 12:31:00)
Last edited by podoboq on Tue Oct 18, 2016 1:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #1655  (ISO)  » Mon Oct 17, 2016 10:11 pm

I think if I were to put my dissatisfaction with Implosion into words it'd be that so far today he has more energy into shaming shadow, and treating Eagar, and MariaR like martyrs then progressing the game state.

This is completely fair, and is why I'm now trying to engage with the people that I have the weakest reads on.

My reads right now look something like {shadow, penguin, nn} town, {zoronos, prism} leaning town (someone mentioned that the way prism pushed me isn't likely scum-motivated and I somewhat agree but not super strongly), {grendel, LUV, dier} needing the most work to sort, and boring scum.

This list does not include gamma who I, despite still having heavy reasons to townread from earlier, has continuing to ping my gut as town lately. It's not that I need to evaluate him more, it's that I have evaluated him a lot and am conflicted. So I'm not going to put a ton of effort into him unless he becomes a major wagon or something.

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Post Post #1656  (ISO)  » Mon Oct 17, 2016 10:20 pm

You never explained that Penguin town read.

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Post Post #1657  (ISO)  » Mon Oct 17, 2016 10:22 pm

Zoronos wrote:Your definition of bad and my definition of scummy seem to overlap. Was my case wrong? Where was he scum hunting? Where was he making effort to solve the game rather than just parking his vote? Where did he explore Eager's alignment?

I agree these things are bad (they don't exemplify good play). I think he did explore eager's alignment in a few ways, not with as much depth as I'd have liked. But lack of effort isn't necessarily a scumtell. And his end of day to me just read as him being disengaged with the game. I could see it as scum just not wanting to commit to reads or do things, but I can also see it as town who thought there wasn't really much point in doing things until seeing eager's likely-scum flip.

Zoronos wrote:If he had a towny early game, point those out.

I spent a decent bit yesterday elaborating on PP being town; I first explain it , I elaborate a bit, and there are some other sprinkles here and there. tl;dr his attitude in the early part of this game felt antithetical to how he felt in the newbie game I just completed with him where I was town and he was scum. He feels more aggressive, more willing to throw himself out there, and less concerned about himself than he did in that game, and I think all of those are telling.
The first post was largely projection, NAI, and tone.
The second and third posts were largely defensive, in my estimation. You were justifying your own play, not trying to either explore Boring, or convince other people to vote boring. Your third post is also more tone / playstyle stuff.

I just straight disagree with this. The second post and second half of the third post were not defensive at all, they were both directly talking about boring's play and why it was scummy to me. I have no idea what you're getting that from.
Personally, my rule is 'talk to people like they're town, talk about them like they're [alignment]', so attacking Boring on the basis of "Your tone doesn't match your read" when she's interacting with the person she has a read on is classic NAI, and is either bad play or outright scummy. Frankly, I think almost all 'tone' argument are scummy, so your reliance on them is disturbing.

Well my personal rule, like I answered Grendel's rqs with, is that I basically just do what I feel like doing. I often will talk to people as if they're town but I'll often do other things. And empirically I do make tone arguments as town so... yeah. Feel free to meta me. Nothing specific comes to mind but.

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Post Post #1658  (ISO)  » Mon Oct 17, 2016 10:51 pm

In post 1657, implosion wrote:I agree these things are bad (they don't exemplify good play). I think he did explore eager's alignment in a few ways, not with as much depth as I'd have liked. But lack of effort isn't necessarily a scumtell. And his end of day to me just read as him being disengaged with the game. I could see it as scum just not wanting to commit to reads or do things, but I can also see it as town who thought there wasn't really much point in doing things until seeing eager's likely-scum flip.

I spent a decent bit yesterday elaborating on PP being town; I first explain it , I elaborate a bit, and there are some other sprinkles here and there. tl;dr his attitude in the early part of this game felt antithetical to how he felt in the newbie game I just completed with him where I was town and he was scum. He feels more aggressive, more willing to throw himself out there, and less concerned about himself than he did in that game, and I think all of those are telling.


Show me where he explored Eager's alignment.
I already explained what the first link (219) is explicitly a scumtell. He's not attacking Grendel's method, he's attacking Grendel. It is an attack on credibility "First year pysch student" is how you set up the rest of the thread to ignore Grendel regardless of what Grendel says. That's very scummy. Your second reference (221) is strictly NAI. He's pointing out that his own meta has changed which... says nothing since it's an empty statement. Scum say it to avoid getting meta'ed (and because it's usually true) and town say it because it's true.
At the time those interactions happened, PP was not under pressure. Grendel's vote was the first one on him. Discrediting an accuser who had just voted him would be pretty relevant to a scum game plan. The rest of your clear distills to 'meta', which I put no stock in. Show me why he's town in this game.

In post 1657, implosion wrote:
The first post was largely projection, NAI, and tone.
The second and third posts were largely defensive, in my estimation. You were justifying your own play, not trying to either explore Boring, or convince other people to vote boring. Your third post is also more tone / playstyle stuff.

I just straight disagree with this. The second post and second half of the third post were not defensive at all, they were both directly talking about boring's play and why it was scummy to me. I have no idea what you're getting that from.

Of course you're disagree with it because I'm using it to call you scummy. The first half of 1463 was a justification of your playstyle before you wandered into a tone argument.
Reading 1295 again I think I was mistaken to call it defensive. It's just poor casing. You're quibbling about phrasing instead of exploring mindset, motivation, or intent.

In post 1657, implosion wrote:
Personally, my rule is 'talk to people like they're town, talk about them like they're [alignment]', so attacking Boring on the basis of "Your tone doesn't match your read" when she's interacting with the person she has a read on is classic NAI, and is either bad play or outright scummy. Frankly, I think almost all 'tone' argument are scummy, so your reliance on them is disturbing.

Well my personal rule, like I answered Grendel's rqs with, is that I basically just do what I feel like doing. I often will talk to people as if they're town but I'll often do other things. And empirically I do make tone arguments as town so... yeah. Feel free to meta me. Nothing specific comes to mind but.


And that's my point - your personal rule and mine are different. However, you're hanging a case on it; you are using tone and manner-of-engagement as alignment indicating pillars. They're not, they vary depending on the style and mood of any given poster. That's why your case is bad. And bad cases built on NAI factors are scummy.
Also, I don't meta anyone - Meta is a waste of time and a one way trip to conf bias land.

So, if you want to help me lynch boring, cool, but I'd rather you do it with a case that isn't poop.

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Post Post #1659  (ISO)  » Mon Oct 17, 2016 11:08 pm

@implosion
In post 1651, implosion wrote:@dierfire: last think I see you say about boring is that you've read up on her but don't find anything really alignment indicative. What do you think of her after the eager+maria townflips, and/or why don't you agree with my points on her?


Obviously the death of MariaR is a minor point against boring (MariaR was voting for boring), but no more than a minor one.
I still don't see any evidence that she processed the conflict between eagerSnake and Shadow_step in a suspicious manner.

For your points:

You made the point () that you don't see why boring would read eagerSnake as Town for the initial claim. I think that, from a probabilistic perspective, it makes more sense from a Town player claiming legitimately than from a Mafia player making a gamble (this is where I was after the initial claim). Whether that was a reason sufficient to justify the apparent strength of the read given by boring is a matter best answered by boring (I, for example, had eagerSnake as one of my weaker reads); I looked to for an answer and it seemed that boring thought the claim sufficient that eagerSnake would either die or be held in suspicion for living. Therefore none of the reaction from boring to the second claim seemed out of place to me. In fact, of all the players that wanted to lynch eagerSnake after the second claim from Shadow_step, boring had the most prior evidence that her read on eagerSnake was primarily based on the first claim.

You also made the point that boring seemed artificially rather than genuinely unconcerned about the wagon forming on her. To assess this, I would look at her attempts to read those voting for her (if she is genuine that the wagon on her is in part a positive thing because it informs the alignments of players on the wagon, she should show evidence of trying to use that information). She had appropriate questions out to nn30 (, , especially ) and Gamma Emerald (). She appears to have made some attempt to read you as well (, ) and to have revisited Gamma Emerald in . I was hoping to have a deeper analysis from her with the results of those inquiries; I will prompt her directly.

You made the third point () that boring had a "tepid" response () to the suggestion from eagerSnake that we pass on the lynch. It seems clear to me that boring was demonstrating that better play from eagerSnake as Town would have been to push for lynching boring rather than no lynch at all (I don't read "are you suggesting that we give a free kill to the Mafia?" as a serious question but rather as a rhetorical one). I've no problem with the tenor of her response; I acknowledge your argument that it sounds "detached" but find this unpersuasive as a reason to vote for boring.

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Post Post #1660  (ISO)  » Mon Oct 17, 2016 11:08 pm

@boring
You seemed to suggest that you would be able to make useful information from the wagon on you (). You've made defenses against the arguments offered by nn30 and implosion (); would it be accurate to say that you found implosion the more suspicious of the two (for reasons given in )? Would it be accurate to say that you found implosion the most suspicious of all those players who voted for you?
Also, I'm not seeing that Lil Uzi Vert voted for you. I assume therefore that you find Lil Uzi Vert more suspicious than the most suspicious player who voted for you (presumptively implosion, otherwise specify the player)?

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Post Post #1661  (ISO)  » Mon Oct 17, 2016 11:08 pm

Zoronos wrote:I already explained what the first link (219) is explicitly a scumtell. He's not attacking Grendel's method, he's attacking Grendel. It is an attack on credibility "First year pysch student" is how you set up the rest of the thread to ignore Grendel regardless of what Grendel says. That's very scummy.

It is very much not a tact that I would expect Penguin-scum to take based on my other game with him. I also just don't think it's as likely of a scum tact in general as you think it is; my focus as scum isn't generally on making ad hominem attacks. It's on looking town. Ad hominem attacks don't generally look town. And making one, like Penguin did, puts him out there in a way that (1) is, again, not consistent with the scum I saw in the other game and (2) just bad play as scum. It isn't good play as scum to discredit your attacker in a way that puts you in the limelight, like with an ad hominem.
Zoronos wrote:Your second reference (221) is strictly NAI. He's pointing out that his own meta has changed which... says nothing since it's an empty statement. Scum say it to avoid getting meta'ed (and because it's usually true) and town say it because it's true.

You use the word "strictly" and I don't think it means what you think it means... you aren't going to like this, but I really think the tone in that post is town-indicative. It seems like, beyond the similarities in our styles that I think I've seen in this game, you simply approach scumhunting differently. I don't think that the content of what people say is the only thing important about it; certainly it is important, but emotional inflection, tone, and so on can also very much inform whether something is genuine. As an example, my main tact as scum is to, in the majority of cases, try to emulate what I would do as town by observing the game state and mimicking the opinions that I would hold if I were town. I'm sure other people use a similar tact, and to the extent that they are successful, it is important to use things other than simply content to discern alignment. Sure, there are actions, which are, again, also useful. But in cases like the one I'm describing tone is important.

And I really think PP's tone is townish.

Zoronos wrote:At the time those interactions happened, PP was not under pressure. Grendel's vote was the first one on him. Discrediting an accuser who had just voted him would be pretty relevant to a scum game plan. The rest of your clear distills to 'meta', which I put no stock in. Show me why he's town in this game.

Your entire reading of these posts is just one-dimensional. Discrediting an accuser is something that makes total sense as either town or scum. For scum it makes sense, yes, because it's a part of their game plan; for town, it makes sense because a townie who is accused knows for a fact that the accuser is in the wrong, and that they are in the right, and being mislynched is bad. In the latter case, where PP is town, we would expect him discrediting a bad attack on him (or at least, an attack that he perceives as bad) to be charged with the kind of condescension that we see; I frankly just don't think he would have gone through the effort of faking that condescension as scum, and I don't think he would have been able to do it convincingly enough to match what I'm seeing from him.

I also just disagree with putting no stock in meta, but I don't want this post to be entirely a long theory argument.

Will respond to the rest of this later.

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Post Post #1662  (ISO)  » Mon Oct 17, 2016 11:16 pm

I'd rather vote for Gamma Emerald than for PenguinPower or Lil Uzi Vert.
I'm still assessing whether I'd prefer to vote for Gamma Emerald than for boring.

I guess that for the purpose of clarity I'll put my vote on Gamma Emerald for now.

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

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Post Post #1663  (ISO)  » Mon Oct 17, 2016 11:38 pm

I don't actually really want to lynch Gamma for being the top scum (despite my vote being there), I was mostly frustrated and exasperated with his persistent uncooperative anti-team-play bullshit.

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Post Post #1664  (ISO)  » Tue Oct 18, 2016 12:21 am

@Dierfire After skimming the game with PP, reviewed already by both you and Implosion, I agree more with Implosion. His reaction earlier felt more genuine and more brash than the game linked.

Reading Dierfire as an ISO has made his posts a lot easier to parse. I like his reasoning for PP and Gamma even though I'm not suspicious of PP, his reads go into a lot of depth (not necessarily a towntell) but he's been straightforward and active all game. The only vote that strikes me as opportunistic would be his vote on Eager, but I and several other town players agreed on it and did the same thing. I agree with the first and third responses about boring in his #1659. My impression is that he's town but clearly competent-if I need to revisit it later, I will. I can go more indepth on this if anyone wants but I'm trying to keep my explanations short.

My reads have changed with that flip but first some thoughts on today's posts: reading Implosion I'm still suspicious but the more he posts the more I'm beginning to suspect it's just his ego. A lot of his Day 1 makes a lot more sense (in particular the "boring has the same reads as me") from that angle and his posts today have been a lot more solid. In particular, I see little reason as scum to not take the free mislynch on eager. I'd be surprised if anything other than two scum were on that wagon, and Implosion wasn't on it. His posts today have been equally condescending but after reading the game with PP that read of his seems legitimate, and the way he's playing is quickly boxing himself in for lategame if he's mafia. Some of his statements today I could see deeper machinations behind but it required a lot of mental gymnastics to arrive at.

That Maria kill was (obviously) made for a reason. Looking at our cast it's hard to imagine Shadow or nn30 getting lynched anytime soon, making them great kills. On the other hand, I was still suspicious of Maria and very few people outed a townread on her as far as I remember. She'd get some credit for trying to lynch outside Eager but how much? Scum needed 3 or 4 mislynches to win this game, and with at least 2 people I can think of who are unlikely to be lynched ever it's strange to go for Maria over them, or even over people like myself, Grendel, or Implosion if we're all town. It could have been made to implicate boring or Dierfire but as everyone and their mother has pointed out it'd be pretty minor and hardly worth the value of a dead nulltown over a dead hardtown.

Looking at Maria's ISO, either one of them is really scum, more likely boring than Dierfire in my opinion, or MariaR is 5/5 in her townreads in #751. I'm inclined to believe the latter regardless of if the former is true. Cry WIFOM but you want but you only WIFOM if you think you're more likely to win because of it. This kill doesn't make sense if other, more town players are on the right track. nn30, Shadow, and PP line up nicely with my reads, Eager is flipped, and Grendel isn't a stretch. It seems unlikely for any of them to kill her if they're scum. I think they're all town, Grendel being the one I'm least sure on.

LUV probably needs to be strung up. I still don't like the quantity-over-quality posts early in the game and that flop was awful. This explanation in particular seems really unlikely to me:
In post 1633, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:Also, my case on Shadow was looking like it was never going to be taken seriously, so I decided to pressure my newly found scum read on Snake.
Does scumreading both Snake and Shadow yesterday make sense to anyone? It doesn't to me. I still need to reread him some more, and especially find other games to see if he's always like this, but for now he's a great spot to park my vote.

VOTE: LUV

Boring got mostly a free pass from me later in the day yesterday due to implosion/Maria/eager being the ones leading on her but 2 of these have flipped town and 1 is no longer a power scumread. She's earned a spot at the top of my reread queue along with LUV.

As a final note I don't like the record keeping on who believed the 2 town ascetics. We had a wide variety of views on the ascetic claims-from me believing either both were town or only Shadow was to Shadow's adamant belief that eager had to be scum. Assuming only 3 mafia and no third party that wagon had at least 4 town, and more likely than not 5 or 6. What to believe about the ascetics is definitely a lot easier to fake than faking reads on players outside them-I think it's a red herring and don't like looking too deeply into it.

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Post Post #1665  (ISO)  » Tue Oct 18, 2016 12:34 am

I also don't like the reasoning behind the townreads on me. They're mostly for gunning for Implosion at a time when no one else was.

Considering no one really agreed with my reasoning, it seems odd for people to townread me for having it. If my push was town I imagine you would have liked something I said and voted with me-yet no one did so. It seems more like I'm being townread for having a read rather than having a legitimate read. Some of the people townreading me for it are likely scum. Some of them are likely town who didn't really take time to think through what they were townreading (because again, if they did they probably would have either voted with me or not townread me to begin with). That's not a good mix.

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Post Post #1666  (ISO)  » Tue Oct 18, 2016 1:01 am

Official Vote Count 2.05
LynchingWith 11 votes in play, it takes 6 to lynch.

Gamma Emerald (3): Shadow_step, Zoronos, Dierfire
Lil Uzi Vert (3): boring, Gamma Emerald, Prism
boring (1): implosion

Not Voting (4): Lil Uzi Vert, PenguinPower, Grendel, nn30


Deadline: (expired on 2016-10-30 12:31:00)
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Post Post #1667  (ISO)  » Tue Oct 18, 2016 8:27 am

In post 1660, Dierfire wrote:@boring
You seemed to suggest that you would be able to make useful information from the wagon on you (). You've made defenses against the arguments offered by nn30 and implosion (); would it be accurate to say that you found implosion the more suspicious of the two (for reasons given in )? Would it be accurate to say that you found implosion the most suspicious of all those players who voted for you?
Also, I'm not seeing that Lil Uzi Vert voted for you. I assume therefore that you find Lil Uzi Vert more suspicious than the most suspicious player who voted for you (presumptively implosion, otherwise specify the player)?

Obviously, at the time, I thought eager was scum. I also thought either Maria or implosion might be a buddy. Obviously, eager and Maria have flipped town, which left me to re-evaluate. I still think there has to be at least one scum on my wagon, and that it leaves implosion, gamma, and nn30 as the scum pool. I don't think Gamma is scum, but if Grendel's right, I'm basing my assumption on something NAI. I don't think nn30 is scum, because even his conf.bias issues seemed towny. I really try not to OMGUS, so I want to take my time on implosion, but he's the POE candidate at the moment.

That's why I set it aside and started looking elsewhere. Regardless of that development, I think LUV is scum, and his flat response didn't help. Yesterday, the only thing that made me doubt his scumminess was that as scum, it would have been all too easy for him to hop on my wagon and save eager. Now, knowing eager is town, he looks worse again, as all he needed was for someone to be at L-1.

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Post Post #1668  (ISO)  » Tue Oct 18, 2016 8:30 am

We're in serious mode right now. As much as a wagon on me isn't that much of a problem, I'd prefer it be people with actual grievances and not people throwing hissy fits.
TL;DR: Zoronos, unvote me.
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Post Post #1669  (ISO)  » Tue Oct 18, 2016 8:32 am

Also, I think me putting up a promise of a case of why me and Eager can't be buddies pretty much clears me now that he flipped town.
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Post Post #1670  (ISO)  » Tue Oct 18, 2016 8:36 am

In post 1663, Zoronos wrote:I don't actually really want to lynch Gamma for being the top scum (despite my vote being there), I was mostly frustrated and exasperated with his persistent uncooperative anti-team-play bullshit.

Whoa. That switch from reluctant voter to impulsive voter... Either way, I found your case on PP pretty compelling. Are you abandoning it?

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Post Post #1671  (ISO)  » Tue Oct 18, 2016 9:50 am

In post 1616, Zoronos wrote:Looking at the lynch yesterday, he provided no arguments for why Eager specifically was scum in the pair, didn't make any strong efforts to decide between the two competing claims, and didn't seem to examine the alternative trains. He just parked and went effectively afk other than an occasional 'this needs rope' style comment.

That to me suggests scum happy to take an easy lynch. He doesn't make an effort to sort out the alignments of all three players being discussed (boring, Eager, SS) because he doesn't care.


No, I cared. I just legit thought that Eager was scum. You should probably put your vote back on me with how strongly you think I'm scum.

VOTE: Gamma

Unlike you, this vote is because I think he's scum.

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Post Post #1672  (ISO)  » Tue Oct 18, 2016 9:53 am

Wait. Whoever said PP didn't say my theory was interesting was right; that was in response to nn30. He called my theory "icky". Not sure what this means, but I feel this could be easily faked as scum. Revoking my PP townread.
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Post Post #1673  (ISO)  » Tue Oct 18, 2016 9:53 am

In post 1387, PenguinPower wrote:Oooh...that's an interesting variation on current events. Unlikely, but interesting nonetheless.

p-edit

Even more interesting. Thanks, LUV.

This was responding to:
In post 1383, nn30 wrote:Moon logic here. This is pure speculation. Please don't take this as super serious - I'm just throwing it out there.

Shadow's CC, to most people's reading, was premeditated.

What if Boring's "scum read list" intentionally had Shadow as her top town read so that she could use it as justification for jumping on Snake?

Scum have day chat - if SS's claim was premeditated, he could have warned his scum buddies to set up bread crumbs they could point back to.
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Post Post #1674  (ISO)  » Tue Oct 18, 2016 9:56 am

Not caught up yet.
Will do it later
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