Mini Normal #1838 - Game Over

[Zoronos]

I don't actually really want to lynch Gamma for being the top scum (despite my vote being there), I was mostly frustrated and exasperated with his persistent uncooperative anti-team-play bullshit.

Whoa. That switch from reluctant voter to impulsive voter... Either way, I found your case on PP pretty compelling. Are you abandoning it?

UNVOTE: Gamma Emerald

My patience is not an unlimited well. There's a lot of poor play going on, and frankly I've seem scum hide behind feigned incompetence before.
I'll rethink some later today.

[podoboq]

Official Vote Count 2.06

Lynching

With 11 votes in play, it takes 6 to lynch.

Gamma Emerald

(3): Shadow_step, Dierfire, PenguinPower

Lil Uzi Vert

(3): boring, Gamma Emerald, Prism

boring

(1): implosion

Not Voting

(4): Lil Uzi Vert, Grendel, nn30, Zoronos

Deadline

: (expired on 2016-10-30 12:31:00)

[Lil Uzi Vert]

@dierfire: last think I see you say about boring is that you've read up on her but don't find anything really alignment indicative. What do you think of her after the eager+maria townflips, and/or why don't you agree with my points on her?

@LUV: can you elaborate on why you disagree with the case on boring? Can you elaborate on your null-scum read on prism, and on your scumread of penguin (is it just lingering things from long ago, or is it more strongly based on his recent posting)?

You can find thoughts on boring when she had some serious heat on her are in #1048 and #1347. For current thoughts you will have to get back to me, still trying to understand why she's still currently voting for me.

As for Prism, I reread his ISO and something about his reads feel fake to me. I'm not sure if that's correct way to put it but basically the stances he is taking on everyone seem very safe. It feels like he can easily fall back on them or conveniently change them at a moments notice with little to no scrutiny.

My read on Penguin is still the same from #522. It has grown some with how quiet he's been and Gamma's insistence on basing his read on him on a reaction that could be easily faked.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

@Dierfire

After skimming the game with PP, reviewed already by both you and Implosion, I agree more with Implosion. His reaction earlier felt more genuine and more brash than the game linked.

Reading Dierfire as an ISO has made his posts a lot easier to parse. I like his reasoning for PP and Gamma even though I'm not suspicious of PP, his reads go into a lot of depth (not necessarily a towntell) but he's been straightforward and active all game. The only vote that strikes me as opportunistic would be his vote on Eager, but I and several other town players agreed on it and did the same thing. I agree with the first and third responses about boring in his #1659. My impression is that he's town but clearly competent-if I need to revisit it later, I will. I can go more indepth on this if anyone wants but I'm trying to keep my explanations short.

My reads have changed with that flip but first some thoughts on today's posts: reading Implosion I'm still suspicious but the more he posts the more I'm beginning to suspect it's just his ego. A lot of his Day 1 makes a lot more sense (in particular the "boring has the same reads as me") from that angle and his posts today have been a lot more solid. In particular, I see little reason as scum to not take the free mislynch on eager. I'd be surprised if anything other than two scum were on that wagon, and Implosion wasn't on it. His posts today have been equally condescending but after reading the game with PP that read of his seems legitimate, and the way he's playing is quickly boxing himself in for lategame if he's mafia. Some of his statements today I could see deeper machinations behind but it required a lot of mental gymnastics to arrive at.

That Maria kill was (obviously) made for a reason. Looking at our cast it's hard to imagine Shadow or nn30 getting lynched anytime soon, making them great kills. On the other hand, I was still suspicious of Maria and very few people outed a townread on her as far as I remember. She'd get some credit for trying to lynch outside Eager but how much? Scum needed 3 or 4 mislynches to win this game, and with at least 2 people I can think of who are unlikely to be lynched ever it's strange to go for Maria over them, or even over people like myself, Grendel, or Implosion if we're all town. It could have been made to implicate boring or Dierfire but as everyone and their mother has pointed out it'd be pretty minor and hardly worth the value of a dead nulltown over a dead hardtown.

Looking at Maria's ISO, either one of them is really scum, more likely boring than Dierfire in my opinion, or MariaR is 5/5 in her townreads in #751. I'm inclined to believe the latter regardless of if the former is true. Cry WIFOM but you want but you only WIFOM if you think you're more likely to win because of it. This kill doesn't make sense if other, more town players are on the right track. nn30, Shadow, and PP line up nicely with my reads, Eager is flipped, and Grendel isn't a stretch. It seems unlikely for any of them to kill her if they're scum. I think they're all town, Grendel being the one I'm least sure on.

LUV probably needs to be strung up. I still don't like the quantity-over-quality posts early in the game and that flop was awful. This explanation in particular seems really unlikely to me:

Also, my case on Shadow was looking like it was never going to be taken seriously, so I decided to pressure my newly found scum read on Snake.

Does scumreading both Snake and Shadow yesterday make sense to anyone? It doesn't to me. I still need to reread him some more, and especially find other games to see if he's always like this, but for now he's a great spot to park my vote.

VOTE: LUV

Boring got mostly a free pass from me later in the day yesterday due to implosion/Maria/eager being the ones leading on her but 2 of these have flipped town and 1 is no longer a power scumread. She's earned a spot at the top of my reread queue along with LUV.

As a final note I don't like the record keeping on who believed the 2 town ascetics. We had a wide variety of views on the ascetic claims-from me believing either both were town or only Shadow was to Shadow's adamant belief that eager had to be scum. Assuming only 3 mafia and no third party that wagon had at least 4 town, and more likely than not 5 or 6. What to believe about the ascetics is definitely a lot easier to fake than faking reads on players outside them-I think it's a red herring and don't like looking too deeply into it.

I don't see how I haven't made it clear why I started scum reading Snake towards the end of Day 1. Why are you implying that I was scum reading Snake for the majority of the day?

[Lil Uzi Vert]

@boring

You seemed to suggest that you would be able to make useful information from the wagon on you (1037). You've made defenses against the arguments offered by nn30 and implosion (1614); would it be accurate to say that you found implosion the more suspicious of the two (for reasons given in 1609)? Would it be accurate to say that you found implosion the most suspicious of all those players who voted for you?
Also, I'm not seeing that Lil Uzi Vert voted for you. I assume therefore that you find Lil Uzi Vert more suspicious than the most suspicious player who voted for you (presumptively implosion, otherwise specify the player)?

Obviously, at the time, I thought eager was scum. I also thought either Maria or implosion might be a buddy. Obviously, eager and Maria have flipped town, which left me to re-evaluate. I still think there has to be at least one scum on my wagon, and that it leaves implosion, gamma, and nn30 as the scum pool. I don't think Gamma is scum, but if Grendel's right, I'm basing my assumption on something NAI. I don't think nn30 is scum, because even his conf.bias issues seemed towny. I really try not to OMGUS, so I want to take my time on implosion, but he's the POE candidate at the moment.

That's why I set it aside and started looking elsewhere. Regardless of that development, I think LUV is scum, and his flat response didn't help. Yesterday, the only thing that made me doubt his scumminess was that as scum, it would have been all too easy for him to hop on my wagon and save eager. Now, knowing eager is town, he looks worse again, as all he needed was for someone to be at L-1.

What was exactly flat about my response? You sound like you were having doubts about Eager being scum and if so, why didn't you state you were when I declared intent? We are all to blame for what happened Day 1 but no one seems to feel remorseful about it at all.

[Gamma Emerald]

@dierfire: last think I see you say about boring is that you've read up on her but don't find anything really alignment indicative. What do you think of her after the eager+maria townflips, and/or why don't you agree with my points on her?

@LUV: can you elaborate on why you disagree with the case on boring? Can you elaborate on your null-scum read on prism, and on your scumread of penguin (is it just lingering things from long ago, or is it more strongly based on his recent posting)?

You can find thoughts on boring when she had some serious heat on her are in #1048 and #1347. For current thoughts you will have to get back to me, still trying to understand why she's still currently voting for me.

As for Prism, I reread his ISO and something about his reads feel fake to me. I'm not sure if that's correct way to put it but basically the stances he is taking on everyone seem very safe. It feels like he can easily fall back on them or conveniently change them at a moments notice with little to no scrutiny.

My read on Penguin is still the same from #522. It has grown some with how quiet he's been and Gamma's insistence on basing his read on him on a reaction that could be easily faked.

I changed that after looking at the context of his ISO.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Gotcha. Still doesn't change my read on him.

[PenguinPower]

Then vote me.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

You want me to? Day is still young.

[PenguinPower]

I don't understand why you wouldn't put your vote on your strongest read. You seem to be actively refraining from casting votes until a solid wagon forms. Why is that?

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Never said you were my strongest scum read and I'm not refraining from anything. I'm taking my time and reevualting.

[Prism]

I don't see how I haven't made it clear why I started scum reading Snake towards the end of Day 1. Why are you implying that I was scum reading Snake for the majority of the day?

I never implied that you did it earlier. Your statement implies that you held both reads simultaneously at the end of Day 1. It still makes no sense to have ever had both.

As for Prism, I reread his ISO and something about his reads feel fake to me. I'm not sure if that's correct way to put it but basically the stances he is taking on everyone seem very safe. It feels like he can easily fall back on them or conveniently change them at a moments notice with little to no scrutiny.

Can you give examples of my reads that feel fake to you?
Can you give some examples of safe stances I've taken on people?

If anything I've been contrarian for a large part of the game-it took me a lot longer to come around to thinking nn30 was town than it did anyone else and I was the only one pushing Implosion yesterday...and even now that others are today I've changed my focus for reasons described in #1664. I also switched off of boring shortly before others started scumreading her, and never hopped back on, again for reasons described in #1664. If you're defining convenience as going with others, I've changed my reads at some really inconvenient times.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Why does it make no sense?

Tone and gut for me, at least what I got from what when I reread your ISO last night.

[PenguinPower]

Never said you were my strongest scum read and I'm not refraining from anything. I'm taking my time and reevualting.

I was one of two of your scumreads in 522 which haven't changed, and I've only grown since then. According to you.

You seem to like to stay in an unvote state...it's kind of nice not to take a stance on anything, right? Gotta keep those options open until you can hammer town.

Actually, while looking back at vote counts at yours, Zoronos was in an unvote state in every. single. one. He has lots to say, but not much to do.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Zoronos

[Prism]

Why does it make no sense?

The premise was that they were direct counterclaims, for one?

Tone and gut for me, at least what I got from what when I reread your ISO last night.

Okay, but can you give examples of the reads you feel are safe or convenient?

Looking at your ISO I'm more skeptical of your interpretation of my reads, and even more skeptical of your reads.

In the meantime I'm going to VOTE: boring whose #196 left me wondering if she was trying to find inconsistencies or trying to find scum.

My original read on boring. A few posts later we get LUV reading boring...

I don't know how to put my feelings about her [boring] into the words but I can't shake this vibe from her. I think it's mainly her vote on Zoro, which read more to me as nitpicking about inconsistencies rather than looking for scum.

And in the same post...

Prism - Just subbed in. Nothing to go off of.

On the surface, it seems like you're the one being convenient between following me on boring and flopping on snake when he hit L-1.

On a deeper level, it seems really strange as town to directly plagiarize my reasoning on boring then subsequently claim,

in the same post

, that I had given "nothing to go off of."

More votes on LUV.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Nitpicking about inconsistencies =/= trying to find inconsistencies.

Also another thing I noticed, you seemed concerned about how you look. A few posts in your ISO if I recall you were frustrated at people for their reasoning for town reading you. It's as if you worried someone will go back and wonder why you're so widely town read by the majority.

[Prism]

Nitpicking about inconsistencies =/= trying to find inconsistencies.

If you haven't voted LUV and need a reason, read my #1689 and this response.

Also another thing I noticed, you seemed concerned about how you look. A few posts in your ISO if I recall you were frustrated at people for their reasoning for town reading you. It's as if you worried someone will go back and wonder why you're so widely town read by the majority.

Is this a scumtell?

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Never said you were my strongest scum read and I'm not refraining from anything. I'm taking my time and reevualting.

I was one of two of your scumreads in 522 which haven't changed, and I've only grown since then. According to you.

You seem to like to stay in an unvote state...it's kind of nice not to take a stance on anything, right? Gotta keep those options open until you can hammer town.

Actually, while looking back at vote counts at yours, Zoronos was in an unvote state in every. single. one. He has lots to say, but not much to do.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Zoronos

I do, I like to be 90 percent sure that whoever I'm voting for is scum unless my hand is forced, like it was yesterday with Snake.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Nitpicking about inconsistencies =/= trying to find inconsistencies.

If you haven't voted LUV and need a reason, read my #1689 and this response.

Also another thing I noticed, you seemed concerned about how you look. A few posts in your ISO if I recall you were frustrated at people for their reasoning for town reading you. It's as if you worried someone will go back and wonder why you're so widely town read by the majority.

Is this a scumtell?

I'm quoting both of our statements and showing that they're not the same thing. One is saying she was nitpicking about inconsistencies, the other is saying she is trying to find inconsistencies.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Nitpicking about inconsistencies =/= trying to find inconsistencies.

If you haven't voted LUV and need a reason, read my #1689 and this response.

Also another thing I noticed, you seemed concerned about how you look. A few posts in your ISO if I recall you were frustrated at people for their reasoning for town reading you. It's as if you worried someone will go back and wonder why you're so widely town read by the majority.

Is this a scumtell?

It might be. Not sure what to make it, just pointing out what I noticed.

[boring]

You sound like you were having doubts about Eager being scum and if so, why didn't you state you were when I declared intent?

I'm not sure where you're getting that from. You mean now? Yes. At this very moment, I have enormous doubts about eager being scum. He flipped town. Before the flip, I was as confident about him being scum as one can be without absolute proof.

[boring]

Looking at the lynch yesterday, he provided no arguments for why Eager specifically was scum in the pair, didn't make any strong efforts to decide between the two competing claims, and didn't seem to examine the alternative trains. He just parked and went effectively afk other than an occasional 'this needs rope' style comment.

That to me suggests scum happy to take an easy lynch. He doesn't make an effort to sort out the alignments of all three players being discussed (boring, Eager, SS) because he doesn't care.

No, I cared. I just legit thought that Eager was scum. You should probably put your vote back on me with how strongly you think I'm scum.

VOTE: Gamma

Unlike you, this vote is because I think he's scum.

Never said you were my strongest scum read and I'm not refraining from anything. I'm taking my time and reevualting.

I was one of two of your scumreads in 522 which haven't changed, and I've only grown since then. According to you.

You seem to like to stay in an unvote state...it's kind of nice not to take a stance on anything, right? Gotta keep those options open until you can hammer town.

Actually, while looking back at vote counts at yours, Zoronos was in an unvote state in every. single. one. He has lots to say, but not much to do.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Zoronos

Ewww..

[boring]

@Grendel, what are your thoughts on PP and LUV?

[Gamma Emerald]

Looking at the lynch yesterday, he provided no arguments for why Eager specifically was scum in the pair, didn't make any strong efforts to decide between the two competing claims, and didn't seem to examine the alternative trains. He just parked and went effectively afk other than an occasional 'this needs rope' style comment.

That to me suggests scum happy to take an easy lynch. He doesn't make an effort to sort out the alignments of all three players being discussed (boring, Eager, SS) because he doesn't care.

No, I cared. I just legit thought that Eager was scum. You should probably put your vote back on me with how strongly you think I'm scum.

VOTE: Gamma

Unlike you, this vote is because I think he's scum.

Never said you were my strongest scum read and I'm not refraining from anything. I'm taking my time and reevualting.

I was one of two of your scumreads in 522 which haven't changed, and I've only grown since then. According to you.

You seem to like to stay in an unvote state...it's kind of nice not to take a stance on anything, right? Gotta keep those options open until you can hammer town.

Actually, while looking back at vote counts at yours, Zoronos was in an unvote state in every. single. one. He has lots to say, but not much to do.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Zoronos

Ewww..

What is this about?

[boring]

Spoiler:

Looking at the lynch yesterday, he provided no arguments for why Eager specifically was scum in the pair, didn't make any strong efforts to decide between the two competing claims, and didn't seem to examine the alternative trains. He just parked and went effectively afk other than an occasional 'this needs rope' style comment.

That to me suggests scum happy to take an easy lynch. He doesn't make an effort to sort out the alignments of all three players being discussed (boring, Eager, SS) because he doesn't care.

No, I cared. I just legit thought that Eager was scum. You should probably put your vote back on me with how strongly you think I'm scum.

VOTE: Gamma

Unlike you, this vote is because I think he's scum.

Never said you were my strongest scum read and I'm not refraining from anything. I'm taking my time and reevualting.

I was one of two of your scumreads in 522 which haven't changed, and I've only grown since then. According to you.

You seem to like to stay in an unvote state...it's kind of nice not to take a stance on anything, right? Gotta keep those options open until you can hammer town.

Actually, while looking back at vote counts at yours, Zoronos was in an unvote state in every. single. one. He has lots to say, but not much to do.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Zoronos

Ewww..

What is this about?

It's scummy, scummy. He's made two scummy votes in a row, and I figured they belonged in a compilation together.