Mini Normal 1843 - Endgame

[goodmorning]

Vote: Toffee

be town so i can just lazy

[goodmorning]

This game is already
A. entertaining, and
B. annoying.

SHOULD BE A GOOD TIME

[goodmorning]

Just in that usual early-game way where everyone's either too relaxed or too uptight.

I assume it'll go away.

[goodmorning]

goodmorning's fear of the dice is strange. Don't be afraid of what the universe has planned for you.

No, that was one of the entertaining bits.

@Cloud: People don't usually get quicklynched here.

First page discussion about dice voting
Second page post about not random voting

Only thing missing is a shameless bandwagon discussion

vote: goodmorning

OH NO

A SUDDEN BANDWAGON

LET ME CRINGE AND AWKWARDLY OMGUS SOMEBODY ON IT

OR SOMETHING

Is that what you were looking for?

Mfw everyones literally ignoring me when i put effort ;-;

I mean, mostly you just summed up your playstyle and were too lazy to click some links? (I was also too lazy to click some links so.)

I actually like what GM said about BBT unless it's a super catered pocketing attempt.

I mean, Toffee might still be mad at me from the time I spent a whole scumgame trolling him? So idk if I even could.

Post 16 seems to take for granted that Hoopla is town. Seems like a good enough start.

I looked at that post. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Vote: Victor

[goodmorning]

Is that what you were looking for?

Exactly.

Glad to be of help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[goodmorning]

mfw i don't ignore cloud but cloud ignores meeeeeee

[goodmorning]

So BV is Town I guess???

^not bad, not bad.

I feel like goodmorning is close to finally cracking and going into full meltdown, but consider me voting for Raskolnikov too.

AHHHH OH NO I AM MELTING

w a i t

Not much has happened so far - we need to get a wagon going.

butt

toffeeeee

, that's so

boorrringggggg

I can't believe we're letting goodmorning off the hook...

Me neither

I MEAN NOPE, I AM OBVIOUSLY INNOCENT

Havent outed a single read

can you please link me to where you have outed reads, I have trouble locating them when looking over your iso.

l o l

57 is a little ridiculous.

thatsthejoke.jpg

So Raskolnikov may have murdered an old woman with an axe but is still quite possibly Town, plus TwoFace. I think Scum probably gets the subtext more often than Town does here.

Will anyone see my problem with this?

I think you may be taking this a tad bit too seriously! (

it is only a game omg

)

If there is scum on the wagon

I like that you start by saying "IF" and then somewhere between there and the end of the post it magically changes to "IS" with no real explanation.

And by "I like" I mean "I don't like." Also VCA is dumb ok

VOTE: Good morning
Everything they've said is cringy and seems forced to me

thatsthejoke.dejavu

--

I kind of want to vote Toffee now but I really don't want to forget about Victor. Hmm.

[goodmorning]

Jaack's not wrong that it draws attention.

Is there some special reason you're not trying to engage with me here?

[goodmorning]

You're voting me but you don't seem interested in genuinely sorting me, is what I'm saying. I was here, it's a great chance to talk to someone you think is scummy in real time, I responded to you in my last post, and you just didn't bother.

Qs:
1.

cringy and... forced

2.

I kind of want to vote Toffee now but I really don't want to forget about Victor. Hmm.

3. I AIN'T 'FRAID OF NO GHOSTS

No, I'm not happy. The fact that you didn't bother reading the last sentence of 112 before you made the post that I had to ask you why you weren't making makes me especially unhappy.

[goodmorning]

Was it not obviously a joke?

[goodmorning]

tbqh i just expect better of toffee by this point than 'oh, let's just bamdwagons'



is that just me????

[goodmorning]

BV you are trying too hard i think; possibly this means nothing because it is 2am but i'll come back when awake & see

hoopla y u make vca type arguments


something about maria i've already forgotten

[goodmorning]

VOTE: BlueBloodedToffee

Feel better with my vote here. I think he's more likely to be scum than Rask for the reasons I gave earlier.

It's not so much process-of-elimination. Just an observation from my experience that early large wagons often tend to be town.

I get the logic there but I think it depends on the context. I can see scum jumping on an early partner-wagon to let it fall apart through paranoia. I can also see scum resisting early an town wagon for the opposite reason.

What do you think about the fact that the Rask-wagon dismantled so easily? Also, do you have a read on BBT?

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmk

[goodmorning]

Come join me on the Victor wagon, everyone! It's becoming better and better by the minute!

BV you are trying too hard i think;

Hey now, I gotta show off or else I'll have a hard time pocketing all the townies!

Ha.

What I mean is, does it look like you're trying hard because you're a tryhard or because you're scum who's having a slightly more difficult time of it than they expected? (Obviously this is a rhetorical question.)

I dont think mafia would dare alignement tell in GM/rask like wagons, ever (and lets hope i didnt jinx it).

Sometimes they do it by accident, that's why it's called a scum

slip

.

--

I keep running into a problem scumreading Toffee and Victor; namely, that although they're not actually doing anything, they are genuinely better than that as Scum too.

[goodmorning]

What I mean is, does it look like you're trying hard because you're a tryhard or because you're scum who's having a slightly more difficult time of it than they expected? (Obviously this is a rhetorical question.)

Neither. I feel it's productive to talk about what I'm thinking and push the game forward. Are you against analyzing wagons in general, or do you just feel mine wasn't useful?

I'm going to stick with BBT. Why Victor over him?

That's not at all the sort of thing I mean.

Because Victor's being much worse. Toffee is at least trying to do

something

.

LOL woops btw i just townsliped that i cannot be mafia with i am innocent or i am a pro at forum mafia in my first game

I've tried to write explanatory sentences six different times here, someone throw me an assist?

Hoopla is fussing over semantics rather than asking why I would vote either player. That's not a townie move.

No, she isn't. Hoopla is saying, "you've said you scumread a couple people but haven't actually explained why and that's absolute shit."

Which is the equivalent of insisting you explain yourself.

Which means

you're

the one playing semantic games.

[goodmorning]

Because Victor's being much worse. Toffee is at least trying to do

something

.

Victors pushing things though? Saying he did less than BBT in this game is kind of a stretch.

The part I do agree with is I want him to explain his reads.

saying 'this guy is a good vote' is not pushing anything; saying 'come bandwagon this guy,' while both useless and dull, is.

Also, Victor has yet to explain shit. Toffee at least has said he wants to bandwagon people for pressure and spent some time on his Raskolnikov townread.

Twoface and goodmorning?

I should certainly hope she doesn't want more from me, seeing as I have more content at this point than at least half the playerlist.

Hoopla is fussing over semantics rather than asking why I would vote either player. That's not a townie move.

No, she isn't. Hoopla is saying, "you've said you scumread a couple people but haven't actually explained why and that's absolute shit."

But she didn't say that. She said I wasn't sharing reads. Not sharing reads isn't the same as not explaining them. If she had actually said something like what you quoted I wouldn't be scum reading her.

She said you weren't sharing reads "

punctuated with something other than variations of "...is a good vote".

"

WHAT ELSE IS THAT SUPPOSED TO MEAN?????

Which is the equivalent of insisting you explain yourself.

Then why didn't she just ask like Maria did?

I don't know, but given that she shouldn't have HAD to ask in the first place, I don't really care.

Was about to vote victor actually but his response makes me think town, and goodmorning's push on him has been weird.

Go look at his entrance again. He comes in near the end of page two, throws a completely random vote, doesn't engage with the game in any way. Try and tell me that's in any way Town.

I think that probably answers your later question.

If I'm being honest though, it's because I don't like the over the top HEY IM NOT SRS tone in mostly 112

HEY THIS IS A GAME

(I AM VERY NOT SRS)

[goodmorning]

HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

[goodmorning]

i kind of want to vote cloud because he keeps flirting with the idea of being useful and then deciding against it

[goodmorning]

I haven't hated his responses to GM.

I have; he's been deliberately attempting to infuriate me, I think.

[goodmorning]

Scum want to be consistant and always try to give more reason behind a read it's more likely for town to be lazy or not be able to back up a read then scum that's just a proven fact

actually scum usually have a harder time backing up reads because they have to make them up but o k t h e n

[goodmorning]

you said lazy OR UNABLE.

i don't disagree with the lazy part necessarily but it's more playstyle than anything actually AI but that's kinda long to explain so i was gonna stick to short and pithy.

[goodmorning]

you said lazy OR UNABLE.

i don't disagree with the lazy part necessarily but it's more playstyle than anything actually AI but that's kinda long to explain so i was gonna stick to short and pithy.

what I mean by unable is from what I've got a lot more town are willing to say
"It's a gut SR or I won't tell you"
Then scum.

eh, unwilling =/= unable but w/e

1

Sure it is. First I was actually voting BBT, so while I didn't literally come out and say come bandwagon this guy I was putting pressure on him (and I wasn't the only vote on him at the time). Similarly saying I willing to vote another player is clearly an indication of my read, and gives other players a chance to see if they want to either question why I'll vote them, convince me to shift my vote, etc, etc. Saying let's have a bandwagon is simply saying let's pile votes without worrying about it. Given how early it was it doesn't even look like BBT is looking for anything particularly scummy from said player, but simply wants to get some wagons going to look like he's doing something without actually doing anything.

2

Where did the underlined happen?

1. actions =/= words. it's a proactive vs reactive thing. also i really don't want to get caught up defending toffee because he's also been awful thus far but less awful than you, much like cancer is less awful to us somehow when it happens to adults rather than children.
2. context of 97 makes it pretty clear imo.

Hoopla is fussing over semantics rather than asking why I would vote either player. That's not a townie move.

No, she isn't. Hoopla is saying, "you've said you scumread a couple people but haven't actually explained why and that's absolute shit."

But she didn't say that. She said I wasn't sharing reads. Not sharing reads isn't the same as not explaining them. If she had actually said something like what you quoted I wouldn't be scum reading her.

She said you weren't sharing reads "

punctuated with something other than variations of "...is a good vote".

"

WHAT ELSE IS THAT SUPPOSED TO MEAN?????

Again, the statement was;

As an aside, I don't understand the purpose of Victor and Maria declining to share reads.

However much you kick and scream, that's complaining I didn't share reads, not that I didn't explain them.

i

quoted hoopla's actual post

. 177.

KNOW THE FACTS

Which is the equivalent of insisting you explain yourself.

Then why didn't she just ask like Maria did?

I don't know, but given that she shouldn't have HAD to ask in the first place, I don't really care.

That's not an excuse. If your town you can't expect players to hand you their alignment on a plate. If she was town, I'd expect to be trying to get more information out of me. She didn't. She attacked and left, even after I gave her an opportunity to engage with me in 175. That's not townie.

if YOU'RE town you shouldn't be deliberately trying to make it harder for everyone else. bad play, very antitown.

Although I still don't know the purpose of saying you have two strong town reads and then not sharing who they are, let alone reasons why. Why bother mentioning them at all?

so he can draw attention to himself and pretend later that's good evidence against him beinng scum???

p-edit: OR YOU COULD JUST FUCKING EXPLAIN YOURSELF IN THE FIRST PLACE INSTEAD OF ACTING LIKE A SHIT FFS

[goodmorning]

it's 4 am and i broke a quote WHAT A SURPRISE

[goodmorning]

I keep running into a problem scumreading Toffee and Victor; namely, that although they're not actually doing anything, they are genuinely better than that as Scum too.

To be quite honest, I'm having trouble discerning what you're actually doing too. My general impression is that you're posting lots of words, but few reads.

Currently, I'm having an argument with Victor. I thought that was obvious.

You may have therefore missed me townreading BV, Face, Raskolnikov and scumreading Victor, Toffee but I really don't see how unless you were mostly ignoring me. (Which would be fine, by the way, given that I'm mostly ignoring you.)

I was in a holding pattern on Sotty and Hoopla but I really don't like Sotty's most recent post so half of that at least could change.

Rage post below.

[goodmorning]

1

Sure it is. First I was actually voting BBT, so while I didn't literally come out and say come bandwagon this guy I was putting pressure on him (and I wasn't the only vote on him at the time). Similarly saying I willing to vote another player is clearly an indication of my read, and gives other players a chance to see if they want to either question why I'll vote them, convince me to shift my vote, etc, etc. Saying let's have a bandwagon is simply saying let's pile votes without worrying about it. Given how early it was it doesn't even look like BBT is looking for anything particularly scummy from said player, but simply wants to get some wagons going to look like he's doing something without actually doing anything.

1. actions =/= words. it's a proactive vs reactive thing. also i really don't want to get caught up defending toffee because he's also been awful thus far but less awful than you, much like cancer is less awful to us somehow when it happens to adults rather than children.

First, don't compare to child cancer. That's just disgusting, and frankly I thought you were a better person than that.
Second, are actually suggestion that words are better than actions? How so? Actions are what move the game forward. It's completely unrelated to being either proactive or reactive, and I have no clue why you would bring that up.

1. It got my meaning across, no? I would probably have chosen a different analogy had I been able to think of one but things are very dark indeed at 4am.
2. No, I'm suggesting that actions, and words that call for actions from others, are more efficacious than words, and words that only imply actions from oneself.

Also, Victor has yet to explain shit. Toffee at least has said he wants to bandwagon people for pressure and

spent some time on his Raskolnikov townread.

2

2

Where did the underlined happen?

2. context of 97 makes it pretty clear imo.

Well 97 said:

UNVOTE: Rask

Cool, Rask is town. Rask, who do you think is most likely to be scum from your wagon?

So, I'd love to know the context which leads to the conclusion that he spent some time on his townread.

The context of 97 is the time in which it was posted, the previous posts from Raskolnikov, etc.

And, again, I'm not going much farther than this. I hate being roped into defending my scumreads.

Again, the statement was;

As an aside, I don't understand the purpose of Victor and Maria declining to share reads.

However much you kick and scream, that's complaining I didn't share reads, not that I didn't explain them.

i

quoted hoopla's actual post

. 177.

KNOW THE FACTS

And post 177 came after 170.

DOES THAT MAKE IT LIKE IT DIDN'T HAPPEN???????? ONE SEVENTY-SEVEN WAS THE POST I WAS REFERRING TO THE WHOLE TIME; I HAVE NOW EXPLAINED THIS TO YOU AND YOUR RESPONSE IS THAT

IT WAS SEVEN POSTS LATER?????????????

And for the record, your logic only works if you assume everyone reading the thread is town (which obviously is not the case).

WEIRDLY, THE VAST MAJORITY ARE AS THIS IS THE NATURE OF THE GAME WHAT THE FUCK

p-edit: OR YOU COULD JUST FUCKING EXPLAIN YOURSELF IN THE FIRST PLACE INSTEAD OF ACTING LIKE A SHIT FFS

If you don't change your tone GM, I'm just going to blacklist you and replace out. Last warning!

If you would otherwise persist in being extremely unfun then I dearly hope you do.

[goodmorning]

This is starting to get confusing.

GM can you go into your 1-2 of your other reads so I can judge them instead of this exchange?

So I mostly townread you and Face for totally missing the joke, though you in particular have made a lot of really Town-looking posts since then.

BV is a little more complicated to explain because that was the first read I got, but basically I townread the perspective his posts seem to be coming from, if that makes sense?

I have some very mild other ones but I'll wait for them to actually be meaningful and explainable first.

If there is scum on the wagon

I like that you start by saying "IF" and then somewhere between there and the end of the post it magically changes to "IS" with no real explanation.

And by "I like" I mean "I don't like." Also VCA is dumb ok

Just looking for a place to start. While you may disagree with my methods of getting there, I do think my logic for scumreading sotty is solid, which is, you know, why I posted it.

And there's nothing wrong with that. There's still a gap in logic there though. When/why does if -> is?

It's goodmorning's reaction that strikes me as most strange of them all. Her posts #18 and #20 acknowledge that there are early game oddities in playstyles, but flat out refuses to draw any conclusions based on that whatsoever. Goodmorning, what was the reason that you responded the way you did?

Because I just did?

Alright, I'll try and be more thorough: I don't think I've ever played a game with Hoopla. Being too relaxed or too uptight in RVS can simply be a function of playstyle; just because someone knows lots about theory doesn't mean they won't joke around when it doesn't matter too much. And the dice thing was pretty unconcerning. I usually play as an IC, so I've seen much weirder stuff than that.

Firstly, the way she's pushing BBT based on past games (along the lines of "I know you and you are better than this") came across as town. Scum tend to townread their "friends" because they'd be expected to know how to read them and it's easier to just correctly call them town.

Unless we're both scum together

oh no

Actually I think I scumread the hell out of him last time we played me-Scum vs him-Town so? But then again that might make me more likely to not do the same thing twice? WIFOM!

Found: O570. tbf I did start that game trying to townread him but then I 180d.

Thirdly, from the back-and-forth with Victor, I agree with and understand GM's argument and I think her passion on pushing Victor is genuine. From more recent posts, the angry outbursts and swearing would be way over the top and unnecessary as scum. I think that's town that's genuinely mad that Victor isn't explaining himself.

I angry outbursts/swearing a lot. Usually I keep a slightly cooler head as Scum but not necessarily.

[goodmorning]

My 180 on him was precipitated by Wisdom replacing in and looking too Town for me to keep scumreading, because I was able to read Wisdom like no-one else. So I did a near-total 'reassess' because 'if I was wrong about that then my fundamental view of the gamestate needs adjusting' or some bullshit like that.

Why, is that important?

[goodmorning]

What's your take on Sotty's and BBT's pushed on each other?

I can only assume you don't mean Toffee but I'm not actually sure who you do mean. TwoFace maybe?

do you find it weird that two people volunteered to step in and argue on my behalf

The defense of you was purely incidental.

GM can you go into your 1-2 of your other reads so I can judge them instead of this exchange?

Or if you can break down your issue with Victor into like a paragraph without the quote wall. That would be extremely helpful, cause I'm not getting it. At all. Actually I have the same request of Victor RE: his GM read as well.

Victor's entrance was scummier than anyone else's (including IAI's, while we're going there); it came near the bottom of p2, when there was plenty to comment on, yet he dropped an RV and left. Currently, he's playing the semantic game he accuses others of playing, misrepping Hoopla, refusing to provide much useful content, and attempting to infuriate me.

And there's nothing wrong with that. There's still a gap in logic there though. When/why does if -> is?

It doesn't. It's very possible that there were no scum on that wagon, although I think that it's more likely that there were. I just didn't see the need to fluff everything up with conditionals, particularly when my though process arrived at what I think is likely scum.

Then I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on the methods at least.

Also something something hope it's not ex post reasoning something.

[goodmorning]

I meant BlueBloodedToffee. I was asking what you thought of Sotty7 and him pushing each other (what it says about either of their alignments). I'm still trying to figure it out.

toffee hasn't actually said a damn thing about it so not much to gather from that side

sotty mostly only talks about it in 119, finding the bandwagoning scummy because... i'm not actually sure. she also says some stuff about meta but the things she says are different alignments look mutually inclusive. then she just harasses a lot of people to join the wagon.

idk if it really says anything about either of their alignments. sotty's disappointment at toffee's disappearance looked genuine but that's nai. didn't really get much else out of it.

[goodmorning]

The caps was unnecessary

caps is NEVER unnecessary

tbqh i just expect better of toffee by this point than 'oh, let's just bamdwagons'

I need to have time to invest in the game.

that is a totally ok answer

--

victor leave off toffee

i like when people catchup post as if in real time

--

@Cloud: It makes me uncomfortable how often you keep asserting that I'm the towniest towny to ever town.

(Almost like it's a blatant WK...)

--

sotty mostly only talks about it in 119, finding the bandwagoning scummy because... i'm not actually sure. she also says some stuff about meta but the things she says are different alignments look mutually inclusive. then she just harasses a lot of people to join the wagon.

idk if it really says anything about either of their alignments. sotty's disappointment at toffee's disappearance looked genuine but that's nai. didn't really get much else out of it.

Well it does, because Sotty was attempting to push a baseless scum read and instantly gave up on it when it wasn't going anywhere. She literally gave no reasons for why I was scum.

This is also an OK answer.

--

toffee just fucking quote your shit, i really didn't need you to make maria spam non-content

--

p19: I could join the Sotty wagon forming. Too many associatives before flips. Nothing else. (though if we are doing associatives before flips, sotty/michel. choosing weak reasons to tr scumpartners is p much my jam)

--

p20-21: Nothing. That one post from Jaack, but functionally nothing.

--

I hate having to catch up after <48hrs. Someone (not Victor) should ask me something.

[goodmorning]

If I hadn't already said Face was Town then 542 would have convinced me.

It seems that part of my feelings for goodmorning were caused by skimming. Posts like #112 do have solid content buried within the fluff, but that's not immediately obvious when skimming.

Protip: In posts that have some grammatically correct sentences and some non grammatically correct sentences, the correct ones are more likely to be important, and the incorrect ones are more likely to be entertaining.

In posts that have none, I was too tired for grammar, probably.

--

Between the two wagons, I prefer Sotty. I don't have a huge problem with either wagon nor with us suddenly being in some way constrained to them alone. I'd like to see more from Toffee before I commit to anything though.

[goodmorning]

@GM, why do you prefer Sotty7 to BBT?

For a start, Sotty's posted a lot more, so we'd have more to go on in terms of associatives.
Besides that, I've seen Town-Toffee have these slow starts before, and if he's under a heavy time constraint that could explain the things I haven't liked. Some of them also seem too obvious - and, as I've said, Toffee is better than that.
(Plus I've played Toffee several times before, but that's more an insight into me than Toffee.)

@GM, upon re-read, there are a ton of things about you that caught my attention which I missed the first time around that I want to discuss. Your read on BBT is a little weird in retrospect. You say you expect better from him as early as page five. Then, you say that BBT was at least better than Victor for spending time on his Rask read. But all BBT had done up till that point was pressure Rask, back off and call him town for no reason. I can't see how he was better than Victor here especially since you seem to expect more from him.

He was at least better than Victor at the time when I initially made that statement. I've said all I care to say about it.

Then there's your take on the competing wagons of BBT and Sotty7. You spent the early game throwing suspicion at BBT but he always takes a backseat for you, first behind Victor, now behind Sotty7. I dislike everything about your 528. You quote posts of BBT where he says he needs time to invest in the game and call it an okay answer. If someone is inactive, it already means that they don't have time for the game. BBT showing up and saying that is a very mundane answer and I don't understand what you found okay about it. You even go so far as to tell Victor to "leave off Toffee" which makes zero sense given Toffee is a scumread for you.

"I'm busy" is fine. It's not a great response to concerns - a great response would be actually producing quality content - but it's fine. It certainly won't be fine if it persists, but that's if it persists.

I wanted Victor to leave off Toffee

for real-time-type catching up

. I do that shit and I love when other people do that shit and anyone attempting to discourage it should be discouraged.

Why do you even suspect Sotty7 anyways? I don't think you've given any reason for it. Given BBT is explicitly a scumread for you, I find your preference of the Sotty7 wagon highly suspect.

I touched on it very vaguely in 315. Since then I've had some small issues but none are as convincing as the ones people have already posted so I didn't really bother. (a. k. a. Pushing a case on a good player is hard & I don't wanna.) They include:
-response to Face is bad
-asked me and Victor to condense reads on each other; didn't follow up when I did this, vaguely commented on like one line of Victor's
-support for entering Toffee wagon shallow (which I was pretty indifferent to (366)), continued reasoning on Toffee shallow (which I am much less indifferent to)
-projects a lot of what I think of as 'surface activity' which is basically looking like you're posting content, but not actually posting content. A good way to do this is to seize up on little things or get into a tunnel battle.

Also: can we all please stop conflating things like "X is better than Y" with "OMG Y SUCKSSSSSS" or "X is worse than Y" with "OMG Y IS THE GREATESTTTTTT"? Those are functionally not the same thing. Chocolate cake is better than key lime pie.

I also have a hard time understanding your townread on me. You call me town early but then cast suspicion on me for "trying too hard." You make a few vague accusations that you don't fully explain. Can you tell me what you meant in 161 and 224? After that, I call you town and then there's no mention at all about my previous "tryharding," you just townread me back. It looks like you think you can pocket me because I was townreading you and there's no progression there that makes sense from a town POV. I found it odd that you refute my townread on you despite reading me as town. Your other reads (like on TwoFace for not getting a joke) also feel really weak.

I said in the very post where I said you were trying too hard that you could just be a tryharding townie. No prizes for guessing my conclusion.

161: I thought your Toffee vote was weak.
224: Tryharding isn't about what specific things you analyze; it's a state of mind.

Every read has to start somewhere.

--

Why is it that when Face asks people to tell him to do shit people tell him to do shit but when I ask people to tell me to do shit I get ignored?????

[goodmorning]

@Sotty: I disagree, as is probably obvious. I'm not really looking to have an argument about it and wouldn't have even bothered posting any of that had I not been directly asked. I've been pretty averse to pushing weakish wagons on players who are probably better than me since NY169.

@GM, I still find your read on Sotty7 weak.

Weirdly, I said

the same thing

.
You: "Oh, gm, why didn't you say anything about sotty?"
Me: "Well, everyone else's reasons are better, but here are mine if you care that much."
You: "GM that is so weak"
Me: "No shit?"

Active players are more useful later on.

For their faction, yes.
(After reading more of the thread it appears most everyone with a stated opinion agrees it's better caeteris paribus to lynch the guy with more content than less so...)

I also initially disliked Sotty7's reaction to TwoFace but her thoughtfulness in trying to see if she was tunneling rang town.

I saw no such thing.

Furthermore, if you know BBT has slow starts, why would you scumread him so early in the game? Given you dislike both my and Sotty7's pushes on BBT, what was

your

reasoning for scumreading him?

He doesn't usually have slow starts. I have seen him have a slow start twice and twice only. My reasoning for scumreading him has been clearly enumerated.

--

Oh look, it's Grey.

--

Well Maria is Town ok. Consistent 'omg let him catch up' could be Scum faking to look Town but I think Scum isn't that irritating about it.

Scum wouldn't vanity right? they'd either CW or bus I think

I vanity ALL THE TIME so never say never?

--

Guys, why all the wagon analysis????????? Like, I don't like the wagon either but it's silly to say it's necessarily on Town just because there's no real counter.

--

Hoopla sounds far too reasonable and responsible and this is bothering me for some reason.

But sotty hasn't done much. His pushes lack substance. He's saying all the right things to look town but when you actually look at what he's saying it's just meh.

that is exactly what i said

p-edit: holy shit grey

[goodmorning]

@grey: i mean, i'm not pushing them very hard. (aka i have been totally ignoring victor for a shitload of pages)

@hoopla: ah, the jokes are back again hmk

She started out scumreading BBT,

bv i was NOT SOLD on either of my main srs at the time as i said


idk why you are just suddenly deciding to unread my posts from your head but i wish you wouldn't

So, the more I think about this, GM is probably town. I do like her points on Jaack and I think the emotional push on Victor looked townish which means my scumteam theory is probably wrong. There was also something about the way Jaack was grilling MariaR that gave me townvibes.

Making a note to myself to look at Grey/Rask/Hoopla interactions. All of them are weird and there might be something there. The Rask/Hoopla early game cases on each other + Rask voting Sotty7 after he called her scum with BBT and then defending GreyICE + Hoopla's unvote of an L-1 wagon with intent to hammer. There's something there and I need to figure out if that's the team. That's my new working theory.

a. what
b. associatives before flips are still silly
c. no, seriously, what
d. 'i just thought about it a little' what
e. small application of pressure = you about-face????????
f. what
g. idgi
h. scum can have good points too
i. and my push on victor wasn't really based in emotions at all
j. just having emotions and getting ragey doesn't mean that's why you're pushing
k. seriously, idgi
l.

what

p-edit @ victor:

Victor's entrance was scummier than anyone else's (including IAI's, while we're going there); it came near the bottom of p2, when there was plenty to comment on, yet he dropped an RV and left. Currently, he's playing the semantic game he accuses others of playing, misrepping Hoopla, refusing to provide much useful content, and attempting to infuriate me.

(in response to sotty asking for a very condensed version)

mmmmk.

[goodmorning]

ftr genuinely trying to infuriate someone is a huge scumtell imo

because it's a really anti-town action but you can pretend it's not your fault

[goodmorning]

ftr genuinely trying to infuriate someone is a huge scumtell imo

because it's a really anti-town action but you can pretend it's not your fault

Dam I must be the most scummy person ever in your eyes then cause I find that fun

If you were better at it I might, but you were aiming for Toffee and didn't even make fun of Everton so???

@hoopla: ah, the jokes are back again hmk

Lets be honest, was there any other appropriate reaction to your comment about me that essentially boiled down to

"too townie to be town"

(the rare, but charming companion piece to

"too scummy to be scum"

)?

Being responsible and reasonable isn't necessarily a Town thing though.

--

I could vote IAI today if that wagon becomes a thing.

Like, "he voted someone other than the most popular of his SRs, thus Scum plus buddy!"
But if Grey had voted Jaack instead of Victor I bet it would be, "he has other SRs but voted the popular one, he is Scum!"

--

Also Jaack still going with all this Sotty stuff makes me think he's more likely to be Town because that's a hell of a brick wall for Scum to throw themselves at.

[goodmorning]

So GM, how did you go from not having "a huge problem with either wagon" to chainsawing me for pushing that wagon:

I could vote IAI today if that wagon becomes a thing.

Like, "he voted someone other than the most popular of his SRs, thus Scum plus buddy!"
But if Grey had voted Jaack instead of Victor I bet it would be, "he has other SRs but voted the popular one, he is Scum!"

Yeah that is a strange 180 from someone you thought might be scum, to say I'm scum for falsely pushing him regardless of what actions he did.

Also noted the poor town read of Jack later in that same post. Grey/Jack/GM?

Because that was 200 posts ago. Shit has been happening. Reads change. Grey replaced in and is reading a similar game to the game I'm reading.He could have picked that path as Scum, because disagreeing with most people on many reads can make people think you're Town for effort-related reasons, but I think if he was Scum doing that he'd have picked someone better regarded than me to have similar reads to.

You, on the other hand, came in and magically had almost the same reads as almost everyone. That's lazy/busy Scum tactic if I ever saw it. Moreover, you made a push on the Grey wagon that was, as I pointed out in the above, exceedingly flexible in nature.

So yes, I think you're Scum and the push is desperation to keep that wagon going because Grey is scary to you.

Also Jaack still going with all this Sotty stuff makes me think he's more likely to be Town because that's a hell of a brick wall for Scum to throw themselves at.

why would sotty be a brick wall? twice they were the largest vote getter and twice votes went elsewhere. logic suggests sotty is scum and everyone else is a counter.

Because

the votes keep going elsewhere. (I still don't buy the wagon analysis, btw. A lot of times wagons just collapse because Town spooks for no apparent reason.)

Sotty could easily be Scum but taking associatives into consideration pretty much results in the same answer; if they were Scum together he'd still have found a reason to quit after the second wagon collapse because you can't keep tempting fate like that and expect to get away with it.

--

Weird that Victor steps into the middle of an attempted discussion that's only tangentially related to him.

--

Grey, if you value your own survival, you'd be voting Jack about here.

Sorry, I don't value my own survival above a scum death.

Don't you scumread Jaack though?

He realized that GM wasn't going to happen a few people were town reading her, and he moved on.

I like that you wrote this and didn't go, "well, Scum has no interest in pushing a wagon for which they have no support..."

Seriously, who do you think is responsible for 90% of vanity wagons? Because according to ^,

apparently Scum

.

@Sotty: I disagree, as is probably obvious. I'm not really looking to have an argument about it and wouldn't have even bothered posting any of that had I not been directly asked. I've been pretty averse to pushing weakish wagons on players who are probably better than me since NY169.

Okay. Lets try this then. You're the only vote on Victor, what would you say would be the most compelling reason that he is scum. The entrance into the game point you made I don't agree with. He's moved on from interacting with Hoopla. What about his other stances makes him scum? Did you think his BBT/Grey vote was scummy?

A. I am not the only vote on Victor.
B. I am not interested in helping you look like you're doing more than you are.
C. Does the fact that the misrep was in the past make it not a misrep?
D. I am clearly not going to be able to convince you on this and I really don't want to try.
E. Is there something about the vote that I

should

find particularly scummy? And why ask me about that in particular?

--

thx jaack and face

[goodmorning]

A. I am not the only vote on Victor.
B. I am not interested in helping you look like you're doing more than you are.
C. Does the fact that the misrep was in the past make it not a misrep?
D. I am clearly not going to be able to convince you on this and I really don't want to try.
E. Is there something about the vote that I should find particularly scummy? And why ask me about that in particular?

Fair enough, Grey did just join you.¹ I'm just trying to engage you when it comes to Victor to try and understand where you're coming from.² I could be wrong, it won't be the first time and sadly not the last time. When I have different reads from someone who I read as town I want to see if maybe I'm missing something.³ "I don't want to help you look like you are doing something" but maybe help yourself?⁴ I'm looking at your Victor vote like Jaack's vote on me, stuck back on page 5 or whatever when all this other stuff has happened in the game that should have strengthened or weakened your point.⁵ Instead your just content to sit on there. I don't get it.⁶

1. "Just"?
2. No, you're not. Also, this sentence feels super slimy.
3. Given that you find everything I said previously and everything Grey said recently unconvincing, and given that any other point I'd be likely to make would be in similar vein, I would be wasting my breath.
4. I don't care if I look useful, so long as I'm providing useful content.
5a. Sometimes, the person you scumread at the beginning of the game is still a scumread many pages later!
5b. No. Jaack has provided a lot of new analysis based on recent posts. You don't get to claim his vote is parked and unchanged; it may be the same vote but it's damned sure not for the same reasons.
6. Stop trying to make buddying me happen. It's not going to happen.

As for trying to get your lynch off -- besides that sounding like disturbing innuendo, if I wanted your lynch off, I wouldn't have unvoted you to begin with and given you a chance to survive.

This really doesn't ring true to me.

You're not an idiot, you're aware of how things are perceived. You know getting off someone 'so they can breathe/catch up/whatever' usually gets pretty widely townread and I think you could tell as well as I could that Grey's lynch is reasonably inevitable - and even if another wagon had sprung up, you'd still get some amount credit from Grey for 'derailing the wagon.'

Maybe I'm paranoid, listening to Grey too much, etc. But this is the first thing you've said that I've had really strong feelings about so????

Greyice I don't think hoopla-IAI are teamed

AHHH NO MORE ASSOCIATIVES BEFORE FLIPS PLEASE

ESPECIALLY NOT NAKED ONES

What other options do we have at this stage, though?

I've seen several people recently saying they'd be chill joining the Victor wagon.

(and then they joined it, niftily)

--

@Jaack: I've posted bits of a case, Grey's posted bits of a case, are you telling me you've not been bothered to read?

@BV: I'm still completely baffled by your IAI tr.

[goodmorning]

Town is voting GreyIce. There is not any scum on that wagon, so no, no bussing is happening. If he was town, scum would have hammered at one of these points already.

you are better than this

[goodmorning]

like, if iai is not dead when we wake and someone tries to claim vig later i'm fucking lynching them

[goodmorning]

like, if iai is not dead when we wake and someone tries to claim vig later i'm fucking lynching them

Is this still true if we lynch Grey and he flips scum?

3000%.

@BV: I'm still completely baffled by your IAI tr.

IAI has pinned all his credibility on GreyICE flipping scum. He's putting all his eggs in one basket and going for broke. The only reason scum would do such a thing either late-game for a crucial mislynch, or if they are backed into a corner in a 1v1. Neither is the case here. If he were scum, there are other options like Victor, Sotty7, and Jaack. They can't all be scum with him. When he started posting, he had a clean slate and could push pretty much anywhere he wanted. He could have built up a reputation to look pro-town. But as early as D1, he went all in, and bet his heart and soul and everything else on this GreyICE scumflip. He thinks he's going to be vindicated and all the antagonism that he's gathered this day phase will be set right.

That's

something I can't see scum faking and I don't think that in this context, and at this time, it makes sense for scum to do that.

"*shrug* whoops, i was wrong. THIS time, we're gonna vote Y, and he's TOTES scum guys"
Do you know how many times I've seen the above work? Waaaay too many.

You know why? Because everyone's going to be wrong sometimes, and you can't hold it against them. If you can come up with a convincing enough case on the next guy, people will listen. And Scum reap the benefits of this attitude just as much as Town do.

Okay friends if you're so smart walk me through this
you're getting close to the deadline and you're mafia.
your partner is at L2 or L3 and is close to getting lynched
WHAT DO YOU DO

uh... vote him to fuck FOR THE TOWNCRED

Unless you mean me specifically, in which case - keep weakly townreading him and then go "oh, darn."

--

hoopla why are you giving long playstyle lectures instead of campaigning for someone to be the last vote on the grey wagon? Like, isn't your whole point that wagoning on D1 is an extra pain in the ass? I don't think you have #7 locked down at this point. I guess maybe BV?

--

Creature!

[goodmorning]

Every one of her posts to me is directed at a townie.

I mean, that could just be playstyle. I do that shit kind of a lot.

Is a lurker!IAI common?

Why is that relevant?

[goodmorning]

VOTE: goodmorning

Didn't push his vic wagon over GI, barely commented on either wagon actually, read very apathetic. Would expect a basic "lynch vic guys" or "either is fine" or just any input.

811 - scumreads IAI a lot, that grey is scary to IaI, presumably a townread onto grey then. At no point puts effort to get vic lynched over grey or defend grey.

Really weird focus onto other/side things in the time instead of the big 1v1 struggle to decide the lynch of the day, especially with greyice going super ham ranting there's no way he could've missed it or thought it wasn't worth commenting on. ISO him and look at the thread-context/timing of each post and see if it makes any sense. I know some people lurked through it or weren't there, but I think showing up and posting about other things on purpose instead of addressing it at all is a lot worse because there isn't that benefit of the doubt.

I haven't read a single one of victor's posts since my ragewall. (Well, one, actually, because it came up on preview. But only that one.) I still think Victor is Scum and I still want him lynched at some point, but I wasn't convincing anyone active and I'm not inclined to waste my breath, particularly not now that he's claimed Mason (which is totally not Scum's favourite FC or anything, nope).

I don't like you equating tunneling with towniness. Tunneling is a mildly scummy behaviour. Also: showing up and talking about something I'd already made up my mind on would have been very boring indeed, and useless. Far better to post thoughts on a wide range of subjects so they can survive my inevitable death.

That said:

Vote: IAI

[goodmorning]

I'd like to see Creature, goodmorning, and Cloud participate more today.

how the fuck am i supposed to participate more than i already have been???????

--

maria is totally town btw

not sure if i've said that already but it's true

--

I don't see why scum scotty kills Two face when two face was the main person going after Scotty it's way to obvious

there are multiple people on a scumteam tho

Not interested a Hoopla vote, I feel like too many people are saying they don't like her with no one actually putting their vote were their mouth is.

People only started to vaguescumread Hoopla late D1 when there would have been no point voting her and it is now early D2 with nearly everyone's top scumreads still alive and pushable.

What a terrible excuse to townread someone.

Let it also be known I do not believe this mason bs but for now I can't do anything to victor.

This can stop right now. We're not lynching Victor today, no matter how anyone feels about the mason claim. I don't have the patience for anyone floating the "scum fake claim masons all the time" theroy. It's bullshit.

Are you saying you think Scum don't fakeclaim Mason? Because I have a nice bridge to sell you.

--

so BV could actually maybe be scum???? this requires attention

also creature. whan i'm awake i'll probably get right on this

[goodmorning]

@GM, why MariaR town? What happened to your Sotty7 scumread from D1?

Besides what I said in 694, I liked the tone of her rant @ you in 1171.

It's still around. My IAI scumread is stronger though.

And you have less posts than everyone besides Jaack.

That's because I'm a quote-striper. If I multiposted like the rest of you assholes I'd have 4 times as many. (This post, for instance, would be something like 4-6 posts instead of just 1.)

If you were going by # of posts, why wasn't Jaack in your list?

I haven't read a single one of victor's posts since my ragewall. (Well, one, actually, because it came up on preview. But only that one.) I still think Victor is Scum and I still want him lynched at some point, but I wasn't convincing anyone active and I'm not inclined to waste my breath, particularly not now that he's claimed Mason (which is totally not Scum's favourite FC or anything, nope).

You're saying yesterday you just stopped reading the posts of your scumread at one point and didn't think it was worth it to talk about them anymore?? There were competing wagons extremely close and a lot of people on the fence, you wanted victor lynched and greyice not-lynched, but thought it was a waste of breath to comment, really? He didn't claim mason until the very end of the day so that's not justification for yesterday either.

NOBODY WAS ON THE FENCE. I'm convinced he's Scum and reading his posts was making the game extremely unfun for me, so yeah, I stopped. I said all I had to say and nobody who wanted Grey lynched bought it, so there was no point wasting my breath repeating myself.

I don't like you equating tunneling with towniness. Tunneling is a mildly scummy behaviour.

If you care about something you don't ignore it. This is a false dilemma you're creating; the game is not black-and-white where you either say nothing or tunnel.

AGAIN, I'M NOT GOING TO WASTE MY BREATH REPEATING MYSELF.

IF I SAY IT IN CAPS WILL YOU COMPREHEND IT THIS TIME?

Also: showing up and talking about something I'd already made up my mind on would have been very boring indeed, and useless. Far better to post thoughts on a wide range of subjects so they can survive my inevitable death.

WTF kind of logic is this, it's better to post my thoughts on a wide range of subjects than to read my scumread's posts which I just stopped doing halfway through the game and comment on either wagon when both were competing.
Even without victor, if I completely ignore that part; you didn't care about greyice there either. YOU SAID YOU THOUGH IAI WAS SCUM AFRAID OF GREYICE. How do you not say ANYTHING about why you think lynching greyice might not be a good idea. TWO OF YOUR SCUMREADS WERE PUSHING HIM AND HE WAS THE VICTOR CW.

From last to first:
4. Counterwagons are a bullshit reason to change your reads in any way.
3. Scum can bus.
2.

Grey replaced in and is reading a similar game to the game I'm reading.

He could have picked that path as Scum, because disagreeing with most people on many reads can make people think you're Town for effort-related reasons, but I think if he was Scum doing that he'd have picked someone better regarded than me to have similar reads to.

You, on the other hand, came in and magically had almost the same reads as almost everyone. That's lazy/busy Scum tactic if I ever saw it. Moreover, you made a push on the Grey wagon that was, as I pointed out in the above, exceedingly flexible in nature.

So yes, I think you're Scum and the push is desperation to keep that wagon going because Grey is scary to you.

(Kept the 2nd-3rd paragraphs there to show you THIS IS A POST YOU REFERENCED WTF
1. There is literally no reason to read someone's posts if they are being rude and you are unshakably convinced they're Scum.

I think I am seeing lynchbaittown!GM rather than trollweirdscum!GM here.

I really don't know why I end up like this so often.

I want to see who's familiar with how GM plays as town and scum.

I'm not sure anyone here is.
You have that one game in which I was ICScum, which isn't a good indicator of the rest of my play.
Victor has one game as well, in which he was Scum and I played the worst ICTown game of my life.
& that's it.

--

oh, creature

[goodmorning]

hey creature, what do you think of rask accusing me of not backing up a tr on grey when i did it

in a post he's obviously read

[goodmorning]

i was hoping for something along the lines of 'it's not very polite' but ok

[goodmorning]

^joke.

What I actually mean is that it implies ridiculous confbias which implies Town. Could be trying to shoehorn a scumread onto me but Scum is probably more careful than that. Also the former jives better with my previous read.

[goodmorning]

What about them? Which one would I dayvig? Sotty.

[goodmorning]

creature that did not answer my question

[goodmorning]

there were plenty of players (TwoFace, Maria, GreyICE) who clearly willing to listen to a Victor scumcase.

Vc to be posted eventually, but it was a lynch.

Votecount 1.Final

GreyICE (7)

Sotty7 , VictorDeAngelo , I Am Innocent , Hoopla , BlackVoid , Creature , Raskolnikov LYNCH!,

VictorDeAngelo (4)

goodmorning ,

GreyICE , MariaR

, Jaack ,

Sotty7 (1)

TwoFace ,

Not Voting (1)

CloudKicker ,

Day one deadline is Thursday November 3, 8 AM PST. (expired on 2016-11-03 08:00:00)

With 13 alive, it's 7 to lynch!

[/size]

If victor gets to l-1 I'll hammer.

If he's town he doesn't read well and is a liability. If he's scum well I can actually see a sotty/hoopla/victor team and yes I'm a little crazy

ok.jpg

Man, I'm glad I stopped reading your posts if they're all like that.

p-edit: thx creature

[goodmorning]

i forgot to take the links out, bother

[goodmorning]

there were plenty of players (TwoFace, Maria, GreyICE) who clearly willing to listen to a Victor scumcase.

Vc to be posted eventually, but it was a lynch.

Votecount 1.Final

GreyICE (7)

Sotty7 , VictorDeAngelo , I Am Innocent , Hoopla , BlackVoid , Creature , Raskolnikov LYNCH!,

VictorDeAngelo (4)

goodmorning ,

GreyICE , MariaR

, Jaack ,

Sotty7 (1)

TwoFace ,

Not Voting (1)

CloudKicker ,

Day one deadline is Thursday November 3, 8 AM PST. (expired on 2016-11-03 08:00:00)

With 13 alive, it's 7 to lynch!

[/size]

If victor gets to l-1 I'll hammer.

If he's town he doesn't read well and is a liability. If he's scum well I can actually see a sotty/hoopla/victor team and yes I'm a little crazy

ok.jpg

Man, I'm glad I stopped reading your posts if they're all like that.

p-edit: thx creature

FTFM

[goodmorning]

there were plenty of players (TwoFace, Maria, GreyICE) who clearly willing to listen to a Victor scumcase.

Vc to be posted eventually, but it was a lynch.

Votecount 1.Final

GreyICE (7)

Sotty7 , VictorDeAngelo , I Am Innocent , Hoopla , BlackVoid , Creature , Raskolnikov LYNCH!,

VictorDeAngelo (4)

goodmorning ,

GreyICE , MariaR

, Jaack ,

Sotty7 (1)

TwoFace ,

Not Voting (1)

CloudKicker ,

Day one deadline is Thursday November 3, 8 AM PST. (expired on 2016-11-03 08:00:00)

With 13 alive, it's 7 to lynch!

[/size]

If victor gets to l-1 I'll hammer.

If he's town he doesn't read well and is a liability. If he's scum well I can actually see a sotty/hoopla/victor team and yes I'm a little crazy

ok.jpg

Man, I'm glad I stopped reading your posts if they're all like that.

p-edit: thx creature

Doesn't this just prove my point? Maria and Grey were on my wagon and TwoFace is clearly not townreading me based on the post you quoted (and plenty more in his ISO if you look there).

I didn't need to convince them because

they were already convinced

.

You may as well scumread all of them for not pushing your wagon or fighting the Grey one very hard either. OH WAIT.

[goodmorning]

@grey: i mean, i'm not pushing them very hard. (aka i have been totally ignoring victor for a shitload of pages)

i am not attempting to hide this fact from anyone if that's what you're implying victor






victor's been weirdly active D2 as opposed to D1, someone should draw a conclusion from that so i don't have to

[goodmorning]

Also, no point in doubtcasting a mason this early.

This is not early and he's almost certainly not a Mason.

I think he's been more active today because he feels like he has to be. I think he wants me dead because he thinks nobody else feels enough doubt on him to cause him any trouble. And I think he thinks being active is the only way to accomplish that.

Are you saying you think Scum don't fakeclaim Mason? Because I have a nice bridge to sell you.

No. What I am saying is that if Victor is scum that will reveal itself over the next day or two as scum will have to kill him. Having people constantly throw doubt on his claim does little to help us right now because in a perfect world we need to keep his partner(s) hidden and force a night kill. Having every other person questioning his claim is a haven for scum.

And having everyone go 'oh no, he's Mason, it's fine' is a great way to accidentally confbias yourself into believing it 100%. I'm not arguing that we should lynch him today. I'm saying we shouldn't forget how sketchy he is.

It's not trollweirdscum, he had scum motivation for his actions. He wanted to cast doubt on people for mislynching greyice and definitely used that (IAI), and even though out of his victor read he couldn't "support" the wagon, he wanted greyice gone anyways as an experienced player so he didn't comment. His ISO is pure casting doubt on people with barely any push or commitment behind it, read what his focus was around the mid/end of yesterday.

This is a stretch. If GM wanted Grey gone she would have voted him. There was plenty of time for her to switch and she had been scum read BBT at the start of the game.

On the other hand, Grey was townreading me pretty hard, so I don't know that Scum-me would have wanted him dead.

(Actually, as Scum I would probably have pushed a lot harder against his lynch because I'd have known I was right. But self-meta, so...?)

[goodmorning]

jaack why are you doing busywork questions

[goodmorning]

that answers the letter but not the spirit

[goodmorning]

Hate to interrupt but I haven't posted for more than a day so here are my token busywork questions to make it look like I'm doing something:

@GM, how do you feel about the idea of lynching Sotty7?

Besides IAI, who do you suspect and who are your townreads?

interestingly, you will find the answers to these questions in my iso

On the other hand, Grey was townreading me pretty hard, so I don't know that Scum-me would have wanted him dead.

Grey was also hard town reading me.

you and i are two different people sotty


i can see the writing on the wall

[goodmorning]

interestingly, you will find the answers to these questions in my iso

Actually I read your ISO before I asked. I have a vague idea of some of your reads. I'm asking because I want you to commit to clear positions and so I can get an idea of which read is stronger than the other.

You said D1 that you were scumreading BBT but didn't want to forget Victor, but then decided that you liked the Sotty7 wagon more than BBT and said you'll move there. Then you stayed on Victor and never brought up Sotty7 again. It's all a bit confusing and I'd like some clarity going forward.

That looks to me like you read the first ~10-15 and skimmed the rest. I'll go through when I get home and do some nice quoting for you though.

Statements like this and "well he was my scumread so naturally I stopped reading his posts or commenting on him" are just so over the top ridiculous that I can't see them coming from town.

See, this is the foundation of your entire scumread on me, and it's not a good one.

Scum don't act ridiculous.

Granted, I have a higher ridiculous baseline than most people, but come on.

If you want to cast shade on people for being on a wagon you don't switch to that same wagon yourself.

this would be a great point if i was doing that

if.

Tired, will look at sotty and hoopla cases tomorrow. Not as interesting,

no smoking guns just thorough could-be-scum mediocrity if I remember

.

And you wonder why I've not talked much about Sotty. Or was that BV wondering that?

First of all, kudos to GreyICE for replacing into a probably doomed slot and putting a ton of effort into providing analysis for the town -- I think if I were around late in the day that effortposting might have been enough to sway me and I'll review your reads later.

um.

Vote: Hoopla

Personally, I find the mason claim highly likely to be true. I'm very curious about those who claim scum do this all the time, because I rarely see it... at least not in mini normals where balance can be judged upon massclaim. Two mason fakeclaims will stick out like a sore thumb in a sea of PR claims if they are indeed fake. The most likely situation is we have two masons and one other good PR or two masons and two weak to middling roles. There's pretty much never two masons in a town with three or four other PR's, so we can easily tell later in the game if the mason claim is fake. So, everyone should just drop it until massclaim occurs... which we'll be doing the Day before mylo/lylo.

A. We don't have 2, we have 1. Scum doesn't have to all FC together.
B. Historically, # of roles in Normals has been decreasing. We could very well have few enough PRs that a couple Masons wouldn't look that weird. And Scum has a vague idea how night-strong Town is - their # and roles have to balance.

[goodmorning]

Very Important Theory

, quoting so everyone will read it:

Personally, I find the mason claim highly likely to be true. I'm very curious about those who claim scum do this all the time, because I rarely see it... at least not in mini normals where balance can be judged upon massclaim. Two mason fakeclaims will stick out like a sore thumb in a sea of PR claims if they are indeed fake. The most likely situation is we have two masons and one other good PR or two masons and two weak to middling roles. There's pretty much never two masons in a town with three or four other PR's, so we can easily tell later in the game if the mason claim is fake. So, everyone should just drop it until massclaim occurs... which we'll be doing the Day before mylo/lylo.

A. We don't have 2, we have 1. Scum doesn't have to all FC together.
B. Historically, # of roles in Normals has been decreasing. We could very well have few enough PRs that a couple Masons wouldn't look that weird. And Scum has a vague idea how night-strong Town is - their # and roles have to balance.

[goodmorning]

Relative is a silly word to use. If I haven't talked about them, I have no read, or a valid reason not to mention a strong read. If I've talked about them, they're strong enough for me to mention. If I've talked about them a lot, they're stronger. If I've voteparked on them, they're the strongest.

Generally, anyway.

[goodmorning]

Alright, I'm bored, I'll take pity:
Strong Town: Raskolnikov, BlackVoid, MariaR
Weak Town: Jaack, CloudKicker
Scum: Hoopla, VictorDeAngelo, I Am Innocent, Sotty7

idek: Creature

Scum are in No Particular Order but note where my vote currently is. That Hoopla post was the single scummiest thing to come from anyone this entire game.

[goodmorning]

Yeah, I wasn't a fan of that Hoopla post either although I felt Sotty7's D1 play had almost no town motivation. I'm considering whether TwoFace was killed because he had Sotty7/Hoopla pegged as a team as opposed to me who argued that they weren't partnered.

Pretend for 5 seconds that this is a 13p game and thus likely to have a 3p scumteam.
Then pretend that Scum aren't particularly one-dimensional in their NKs.

With that, you'll find yourself in a world more closely approximating the real one.

Wait, I seem to have glossed over this but the last thing you said about me was that I could be scum and then you have me in your top town list?

I'm assuming you think Rask's case is town and misguided? Still wondering what your response would be. He's not wrong that you didn't do much around deadline to push Victor over GreyICE.

Need to think this over. This game is hard.

Yup.

How many more times do I have to waste my breath saying it would have been a waste of breath?

Yup.

lol you're strong townreading MariaR.

Yup.
I don't see why it surprises you.

@Hoopla RE: spec: There are probably 3 Scum, not 2, so who's to say what Scum might/might not be willing to do? Also, 3 Town PR +2 Mason wouldn't be outside the realm of possibility in most folks' opinions.

I, too, am a data collector. I'm not going after Victor today, as you may have noticed.

But all this theory is hiding the fact that you're not actually doing anything!

--

oh look, a semantic argument

hoopla, you realize that if what you're implying about creature is true, i'm much more likely to be town? i don't know that that's something you ought to have picked up on given that you're voting me.

p-edit: we have a game or 2; yes, as i recall.

[goodmorning]

I'm not talking activity, I'm talking content.

[goodmorning]

l o l

p-edit: nice work bv, now i don't have to do shit

[goodmorning]

Actually GM back this up. You've seen scum fakeclaim mason more than once? Link it.

I'll see what I can do!

The most famous example is, of course, Cabd claiming Mason

with some actual Masons

but I forget what game that was. Pinniped, I think. The others have mostly blended in to the mass but I'll have a look when I can.

Are you ever going to respond to 1270?

Can I just assume scum wouldn't bother putting in the time to do that?

See: My sig.

Also, the mod of this game links the votes in the VCs. It's the easiest thing in the world to ISO the mod and just click the links. I could do the whole damn game in 15 minutes or less.

--

Most of the votes on Sotty are nrg...

[goodmorning]

Also, the mod of this game links the votes in the VCs. It's the easiest thing in the world to ISO the mod and just click the links. I could do the whole damn game in 15 minutes or less.

And votes that may have changed multiple times before vote counts???

Get lost dude.

Fine. ISO 3 people at a time, ctrl-f "vote:" and it's done in 20.

Stop pretending it's hard. It's not.

GM summarise why IAI is scum in a few sentences so someone would understand without reading any of your other posts.

He dodged posting as long as he could while being very active elsewhere. When he finally showed up and had reads they were identical to the majority. His vote on the Grey wagon was one that he could have justified no matter what action Grey had actually taken. His vote on Sotty doesn't make any sense; he strong-pushed TownSotty D1, spoke to her like he was SURE she was Town, now suddenly he's just decided she's Scum for no real reason? And his D2 start was the same as D1: he delayed posting as long as possible so he could see the lay of the land and quietly go along with - who again? - the majority. He still hasn't done anything but randomly vote Sotty (majority wagon hint hint) today either.

Also he's trying to undermine my credibility but that's a separate point.

Also I assume your victor scumread is still based on his entrance and the semantic argument he had with hoopla? Haven't heard anything from you on his play around grey or in general for most of the game since that point, just claim speculation now. You said you stopped reading his posts d1 but have you not went back since then?

Why would I read his posts? I'm very sure he's Scum and reading them would only piss me off.

This is a game.

It's supposed to be fun, not relentlessly awful.

And since he's claimed Mason, there's no point in me trying to convince anyone to lynch him - neither I nor anyone else with any sense is going to lynch a claimed PR before massclaim.

Out of everything I think I don't have much a problem with your hoopla read but you should explain anyways why that specifically stuck out to you as the worst post instead of expecting people to come to the same conclusion by themselves.

Because she was here long enough to be impressed by his effort and still didn't get off his wagon. Claiming she would have is trying to duck potential negative repercussions before they happen. She's doing revisionist history to try and make herself look better.

It's like gm literally doesn't care about getting anyone on the same page as her when we have to have a fucking inquisition to try to get a comprehensive explanation out of her too.

I expect that everyone else is intelligent enough to understand what I mean. That's what the quotes are for. Are you saying you need your hand held through this?

As though she automagically expect her scumreads to get lynched, and people to naturally decipher her vague statements and comments made about quotes.

Comments made about quotes are far better than comments off-the-cuff, because comments about quotes have the evidence written right there for everyone to see.

[goodmorning]

Still think it's very convenient you didn't speak up on grey and are now using that wagon to justify what you're doing today but I guess I can't prove that.

I still haven't said a single negative thing about the Grey wagon today. It's really starting to bother me that you keep pushing this when it's not the case.

Also, 1270?? I'm not going to stop asking.

Your posts piss me off, but I still read them anyways.

How certain are you of your read on me?

@IAI: Saying "Cloud is doing nothing" really doesn't count as doing something other than stating the obvious.

[goodmorning]

Hey goodmorning, how are you feeling about the L-1 Sotty wagon?

Most of the votes on Sotty are nrg...

(I don't know what nrg means... not really good?)

Not really good.

I liked the idea but the execution is pretty terrible.

Lean scum:

VictorDeAngelo (only reason he's not in scum is mason)

@RASK: YOU MAY SAY I'M A DREAMER

1270 is reducing my read to one part of it and arguing against that with mafia theory.
Something OTT ridiculous is bad in the sense when I can't see how it could possibly come from town as a legitimate viewpoint, whereas natural town pov should be able to be followed and understood to some degree. Your "scum don't act ridiculous" does not really apply here; your actions are only ridiculous in a town context, but the scum motivation for them are fairly simple (laziness+opportunism). And it's not as if you would know they are ridiculous while doing them, because it took me noticing and analyzing for this to even become a point of public discussion, whereas if it was obvious I wouldn't have been almost alone in my concern.

I don't like shifting to more general theory instead of specifics, every scumtell can be argued against from a theory standpoint. Then with focus there, everyone says "hey it's just a disagreement of theory opinion" and ignore the original points.

Then why can't I be lazy and opportunistic Town?

[goodmorning]

GM address my mason point then. How can you say mason fakeclaim is common when I assume you haven't seen it more than once ever? How do you think it would be a thing given what hoopla brought up, which I agree makes sense whatever her align?

I have seen it more than once ever. I don't have time to troll back through the ~175 games I've played or the ~500 I've read to pull the ones with Mason fakeclaims right now.

If I did maybe you'd townread me for putting in the effort though.

What does NRG mean anyone?

Not really good?

Yes.

Or Normal Review Group. But those might be the same thing.

Then why can't I be lazy and opportunistic Town?

"Why can't I just be scummy town?"

why do you hate fun though?

@Sotty: I think Rask means the me-wagon (despite having placed their second weird L-1/2 vote in a row and it not being on me)? We can talk if you have anything in particular to say but ??????

Like, I'm not convinced you're Town 100% but your reaction to the wagon feels ok so ??????????????????????????

[goodmorning]

I don't actually think my wagon is that unlikely at this stage so...

[goodmorning]

I don't think it's 'was' at all.

[goodmorning]

I'm sorry, do you feel like you're wasting your breath?

[goodmorning]

Do you think maybe you'd like to stop pushing your scumread because there's nothing more you can say?

[goodmorning]

I wonder who might have had the same feeling in this very game...

[goodmorning]

I'm trying to convince you that your scumread on me is based in non-indicative things.


Admittedly I'm being a bit of a dick about it at this point.

[goodmorning]

I don't have any other point on Hoopla. People can take it or leave it. I'm not going to say the same thing over and over again and expect different results; that's the definition of insanity.

Not rocking the boat?? Are you actually serious?????????

[goodmorning]

My reads don't really align at all with the majority, and I keep touching on them all rather than focusing on one.

[goodmorning]

slightly too busy having a meltdown to answer Qs atm

[goodmorning]

what makes you think cloud is scumreading sotty?

[goodmorning]

Well, I won't answer for him.

[goodmorning]

^^that was what i thought
A. lazy
B. ridiculous

p-edit:i n t e r e s t i n g

[goodmorning]

No, I meant I thought you asked for intent because you were being A and/or B.

[goodmorning]

I don't know what you're talking about!

[goodmorning]

SHADE SHADE SHADE NO SBUSTANCE NOTHING, ALL SHE DOES IS ASK WHY I AM LURKING AND CONSTANTLY PUT ME IN THE NULL CATEGORY SINCE THE START OF THE GAME FOR LITERRALY NO REASON, THIS IS NOT TOWN PLAY SHADE SHADE SHADE

nah man

i can see where someone not used to reading newer players would nullread you

You should probably vote her so Jaack can state intent. I really want to get the claim out so we can move to the next step of figuring out whether we buy it.

Why not you?

[goodmorning]

Qs I missed (why didn't you guys remind me??):

@GM, could you explain your townread on Rask and why you don't like Sotty7's wagon?

Right now, the way I'm seeing it is that scum get pressured and her partners (two out of Hoopla, Rask, MariaR) start up a counterwagon because they don't want to bus which makes me more confident she's scum. So, if you could explain what you think is going on, that would be nice.

rask just looks really town ok, look at the pigheadedness of the me-wagon. sotty wagon is bad because most votes are contentless.

I don't try to read wagons in progress. Or at all.

Strong Town: Raskolnikov, BlackVoid, MariaR
Weak Town: Jaack, CloudKicker
Scum: Hoopla, VictorDeAngelo, I Am Innocent, Sotty7

This is all pretty common apart from the victor scumread. IAI isn't as much commonly scumread as he was yesterday, but I don't think it's a controversial position to hold either.

BV is scumread by several; Maria by more than several; Jaack by a couple. Cloud is nullread by most everyone. Hoopla isn't widely scumread atm; nor is IAI. Sotty I'm beginning to look at very differently.

[goodmorning]

SHADE SHADE SHADE NO SBUSTANCE NOTHING, ALL SHE DOES IS ASK WHY I AM LURKING AND CONSTANTLY PUT ME IN THE NULL CATEGORY SINCE THE START OF THE GAME FOR LITERRALY NO REASON, THIS IS NOT TOWN PLAY SHADE SHADE SHADE

nah man

i can see where someone not used to reading newer players would nullread you

Yo im not even a new player and sotty is experienced

You're new to this site and Sotty doesn't play even 1/4 as many Newbie games as I do.

--

are we wagoning IAI now? I'm pretty happy with that.

p-edit: cloud there's only been one night phase

[goodmorning]

@BV: Trackers and Cops are 2 very different things.

[goodmorning]

8 non-hoopla people aren't voting hoopla


i don't like it

[goodmorning]

vanilla cop is investigative bv

also rask is probably too ridiculous to be scum

--

ugh guys stopp making wagons i like gross

[goodmorning]

On Sotty7's claim - I don't buy her night actions. It seems too much of a co-incidence to me that one of Sotty7's biggest antagonist was nightkilled and the other was tracked by her.

It seems more likely she's scum, figured out that TwoFace and Jaack were her biggest threats during the night, killed one, and rolecopped/tracked the other.

With this as an assumption, you would also essentially have to assume that victor was scum as well. Neither TwoFace nor I would have been very likely mason partners for victor (I was voting him at the end of the day and TwoFace had a pretty nasty back-and-forth with victor). If sotty was a role cop, that would mean scum had two assets to find a mason and used neither of them for that purpose. I find that hard to believe.

I guess sotty could be a scum tracker with victor as a mason, but I definitely can't see sotty as a scum role cop with victor as a mason.

neither of these posts makes any sense.

[goodmorning]

goodmorning:

Despite not understanding GM's play at times, I think she's town. One of the biggest tells I've noticed was when she told Sotty7 that she doesn't want to argue with good players when she suspects them. It seemed like such a bizarre thing for scum to say. If GM was scum and scared of Sotty7 beating her in an argument, couldn't she simply attack weaker players? Stuff I wrote in 323 about her early play still apply.

No, because if I attacked "weaker" players I'd be accused of picking (on) low-hanging fruit.

Creature's stances and positions are amazingly consistent

dude

consistency is NOT A TOWN TRAIT

But then if he was so sure that he went to absurd lengths to write a wall of text about her, how did he so easily switch to Sotty7 instead of arguing that Sotty7 was a counterwagon to GM?

This is actually kind of a decent point though?

(especially given that rask seems to find not-pushing scummy)

I also think that hoopla voting alone on gm (who isnt getting lynched) isnt a good play as scum when youre being heavily fosed

hoopla isn't voting me though?

--

EFFORT IS NOT INDICATIVE OF ALIGNMENT

--

Whoever reviewed this should feel bad.

I made the NRG joke before, right?

--

Kinda feeling indifferent to the Hoopla wagon atm...

Vote: Creature

(CC: Maria)

[goodmorning]

@gm, he was voting you before flipping to jack

sure, but not now

the distinction is important, i think

goodmorning:

Despite not understanding GM's play at times, I think she's town. One of the biggest tells I've noticed was when she told Sotty7 that she doesn't want to argue with good players when she suspects them. It seemed like such a bizarre thing for scum to say. If GM was scum and scared of Sotty7 beating her in an argument, couldn't she simply attack weaker players? Stuff I wrote in 323 about her early play still apply.

No, because if I attacked "weaker" players I'd be accused of picking (on) low-hanging fruit.

Okay then, you are scum. My mistake.

Glad we got that straightened out!

[goodmorning]

1550: To tell you that would be against the rules!

1552: Why should I waste time responding to Rask's case when nobody seems to give a flying fuck about it?

[goodmorning]

like, you can fight fire with fire, sure


but maybe it's better to fight fire with ice.

[goodmorning]

I didn't think it was that scummy, just a bit silly/misguided.

[goodmorning]

(but if you thought it was then you're welcome to explain why)

[goodmorning]

@GM, how can we work together to lynch scum? It seems like you are hopping off of every good wagon because of paranoia. Sotty7 is scum and a great wagon. Hoopla is also scum. You sort of talked yourself out of both wagons and finally winded up on obvtown Creature. We can't lynch scum without wagons being formed. What are you expecting exactly? That every person who votes Hoopla write a thesis about why she's scum? Creature doesn't seem like a player who gives lots of reasoning for his reads. You claim you are townreading me so my presence on the wagon shouldn't deter you. IAI has always suspected Hoopla so there's no surprises there? Can we get back to lynching Hoopla? Would you be willing to lynch Rask instead?

Creature's not Town. He's playing a very superficial game atm. He's way too consistent. He doesn't rock the boat. He keeps quietly joining leading wagons for no particular reason.

I don't expect a Rask essay, but I expect a decent reason.

I don't change my mind about voting wagons based on who's on them.

I don't know why you're trying so hard to appeal to me in particular.

consistency is NOT A TOWN TRAIT

Not a scum trait either.

Consistency is like a clock. The area between about 11 and 1 is scummy. 100% consistency is at 12 o'clock. 0% consistency is at 11:59.

When you tell a lie, you're far more likely to be completely consistent. When you're telling the truth, especially if it's a long story, you're more likely to have to correct small details.

And consistency is a town leaning trait for the record

Nope. See above.

I've ranted about this a lot in the past, ftr.

[goodmorning]

(in case anyone wants to go look and see it better explained and better structured)

[goodmorning]

Spoiler: actually i like to see myself talk so here

Being consistent is a town tell,

Actually, being too consistent is a scumtell. We're trained to think 'consistency = good' from a very young age, but if I change 'consistency' to, say 'keeping his story straight,' suddenly I have the same meaning, but his story's too consistent - he's memorised the details of what he wants us to think happened.

RE: Indecisiveness: Here in the West, especially America, we've been trained to think that consistency is "good."
Actually, though, someone being too consistent is almost certainly lying - he's keeping his story straight. Some inconsistency is a good thing; not only does it show someone not worrying about being believed, it also shows someone willing to synthesize evidence and change his mind if the evidence dictates such.
Too much inconsistency, though - think fence-sitting, flip-flopping, wishywashiness - goes back to being a bad thing. In Mafia it can be used by Scum to play the opportunistic game.

If that makes sense.

Consistency is a trap a lot of newbScum fall into because we've been wired to think of consistency as good; in actuality, Town have reads progressions, growing and changing with new materials and assessments.
You can go through mild inconsistency and come out the other side - we call that fencesitting. That's nearly as scummy as consistency, though Town do it much more often.

When we lie, we're likely to keep our story very consistent; it makes it easier to remember. When we're telling the truth, we may forget things, have to reassess, e.g. "It was 5:00 - no, more like 5:30."
For some reason we in the US expect our politicians to be consistent. When new info comes up I guess they're just supposed to ignore it?
They can go too far - their fencesitting is what we all know as flipflopping.

[goodmorning]

Oh nice, now we'll talk about why not frequently changing reads is a scum tell.

Consistency is a trap a lot of newbScum fall into because we've been wired to think of consistency as good;

in actuality, Town have reads progressions, growing and changing with new materials and assessments.

You can go through mild inconsistency and come out the other side - we call that fencesitting. That's nearly as scummy as consistency, though Town do it much more often.

mmk

--

besides your flipflopping on me, yes you are.

[goodmorning]

man it's been a while since anyone's posted anything interesting

[goodmorning]

That it exists.

None of the votes have any attached reasoning with them at all. I have a mild townread on Jaack. Suffice it to say I'm not voting there.

[goodmorning]

It feels a little revisionist

That's what I said.

I'm also concerned that currently 100% of the Hoopla wagon is made up of people on the GI lynch. But whatever, it's not a great wagon but its an okay one, and okay is better than the actual worst (which is my wagon).

What about Creature?

[goodmorning]

Go pay him some attention for a bit and see how you feel?

[goodmorning]

iai it is eminently possible that maria joins the creature wagon

don't be so hasty to consolidate

[goodmorning]

From whom?

[goodmorning]

From anything.

This is not an answer that makes sense in the context of the question.

@BV: I choose Creature. Deal with it.

--

oh god so many pages

--

@Maria: there's aperfectly good Creature wagon you know........

[goodmorning]

MariaR would be my top choice to lynch if we can all agree on her.

Other than that, I really want to lynch Sotty7. Everyone's just letting the claim sway them but I buy Victor's claim a whole lot more and Masons + Tracker seems too much investigative power. Adding onto that, everyone just seems to ignore that if Sotty7 were scum, killing TwoFace and tracking Jaack is exactly what she would do. And no, she wouldn't be trying to find Victor's mason partner because Masons are not a threat to scum at night. It's more important to find any other PRs and to check whether Jaack is mislynchable.

masons aren't investigative, and tracker is weak at best

but o k t h e n

[goodmorning]

The fact people are letting BV live shocks me to the core

and @GM you're right but there's also a cool jack wagon and I like both

but he looked

so town

and now he's gone weird but he could just be town descending into madness and i have 0 idea how to read him help

but why

Others I'd be willing to vote today would be goodmorning, IAI and now also Sotty if it gets off the ground.

GUYS

HOW DID I FORGET I TRIED TO START AN IAI WAGON

LET'S DO THAT

Are you trying to Flash wagon GM right now Rask? Why?

Because I don't always use correct grammar and have several unpopular opinions and am getting wishy-washier as the game goes on and thus am an easy wagon?

Or that 10-page case Rask posted on me a little while ago. Possibly that.

--

Tunneling is mildly scummy ftr.

--

Can we lynch Creature?

Hop on the wagon and we'll find out!

--

guys i am getting really tired of all the nightkill spec when the obvi answer is that 2face was just a pretty universal tr in the wrong place at the wrong time

[goodmorning]

I would also support a IAI lynch should that pop up.

still want to try to make the creature wagon go but holy shit quickwagon sounds pretty awesome too

[goodmorning]

Usually the scum template at critical junctures like those are more along the lines of lurking, sitting at the base of wagons (or votes going nowhere), not getting super involved in trying to upset the applecart and just letting townies make the scummy looking L-1 votes and hammers, and then attacking them tomorrow.

except the point, as scum, is not to get caught...

[goodmorning]

except the point, as scum, is not to get caught...

Well yes, but the point is also to get town lynched.

There is risk involved in not accepting town lynches when then materialise, as you often don't get townread for moving the votes elsewhere, and just increase personal risk (and on your partners) for no reason. You have to be reasonably sure you'll look good from putting yourself in the spotlight in order to do it. Otherwise it's easier to sit back and accept the sacrificial lamb the town has offered up for you.

Except everyone understands Town can be wrong? Sometimes a gentle whiteknight is a great strategy as Scum, for instance.

--

Guys I just want to point out that our CLAIMED MASON

ISN'T DOING SHIT

.

BUT OH YEAH, HE'S TOTES A REAL MASON ALRIGHT

--

I'm having this feeling MariaR is gambiting, not sure why.

Tell me what gambiting is again please I've heard it so many times and the tldr I get from it is making a stupid play.

No, you've got the right definition there.

It's making a play that's "so stupid it just might work!"

Hey creature why do you clear gm again?

Because I think GM is way different to Newbie 1683.

I play very differently as an IC...

(And absolutely garbage as Scum IC)

TwoFace nightkill directly points to her.

HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

[goodmorning]

what is happening

[goodmorning]

if i see anyone beyond this point trying to argue that nightkill analysis is efficacious i'm voting them



fuck actually trying to win, this is way more important

[goodmorning]

We could lynch maria.

no.

Vote: Rask

CC: Maria, Cloud



GO GO QUICKLYNCH

[goodmorning]

GM's a potential sotty partner tbh.

obviously the best thing to do when my partner's about to be lynched is obv chainsaw




o b v i o u s l y

[goodmorning]

Rask you're acting just like 1820 can you just take a step back ffs -_-

Can't be bothered. I could have lurked this day or just stuck on GM vanity style like a stubborn mule, but I go out of my way to reach out and try to get agreement and compromise and people just hate me for it.

...

Vote: IAI

BETTER QUICKLYNCH 10/10

With that said, my townread on GM is nowhere near as strong as before. She's more nullish to me now.

Why, what happened for this shift?

i assume i went slightly erratic

but maybe bv has a better reason than that, who knows?

GM finally flipping should vindicate me and get people to stop annoying me,

i have some sad news for you

Why, what happened for this shift?

She told me

she wasn't town and

that my reasons for townreading her are rubbish.

ftfy

and they are fyi

Though it is weird I'm phased about this and sotty's been leading lynch most of the game, as PR, and doesn't seem a fraction as concerned.

different people different playstyles!

--

@Hoopla: So when I said "let's lynch Victor, he's Scum" and he said "I'm a Mason," and everyone said, "oh, we shouldn't lynch him then," everyone was wrong?

Nobody's saying we shouldn't lynch PRs ever. They're saying we shouldn't lynch PRs

today

.

[goodmorning]

@hoopla: i'm not saying it's very provable

i'm saying it's dumb to lynch her today

potential gains greatly outweigh potential losses

what.

I like the GM turn from me to IAI vanity and barely saying anything about sotty despite it being literally the biggest point of interest.

i already said the wagon was bad when it originally formed, so much so that it scared me off of it which almost never happens

currently i'm arguing against lynching pr claims day of claim, idk who else you think that means

what more do you actually want me to say???? if you're town this is just a stupid amount of confbias.

also: OMGUS looks scummy. who knew?????????????????

[goodmorning]

well no, i don't

because i scumread sotty but the wagon on her is literally the worst


so i don't really know




but we shouldn't lynch a fucking pr claim day of

[goodmorning]

Hoopla literally tipped the balance on the Sotty wagon. There are better ways to bus. Not that it's impossible, but I don't think it's plausible.

Vote: Creature

I think I still want this. I'll be rereading later though.

[goodmorning]

Haven't actually done anything with this game. Maybe I'll have time today.

I'm going to chime in in a bit but in the meantime, does anyone want to comment on why I'm still alive? In fact, I'd like everyone's comments on that. I was obviously right about Sotty7 which means I'm very likely wrong about someone else. I want to hear thoughts on who that could be.

oh.

Vote: BV

Now I think about it, IAI kill suggests against maria-gm, as both are likely too lazy to masonhunt and IAI reads-only weren't threatening to that team.

IAI was tied pretty hard to Victor but I assumed they were both Scum so...

goodmorning

- Saying she wants to join the Sotty7 wagon over BBT's seemed unnecessary because she had been laying down the groundwork to push BBT anyways. Then there's the way Sotty7 reacted to her scumread by trying to placate her and make her see reason that I don't see as scumbuddy interaction. GM pushing in 588, Sotty7's response in 590, GM's 694, Sotty7's 795, GM's 811, Sotty7's 827 and GM's 884 are the back-and-forths I'm referring to. GM's basically going "you are scum but I'm not going get into why" and the gist of Sotty7's response is "please do tell me."

inb4 GM goes "but I totally would have pushed Sotty7 D1 if I was her partner and your reasons are rubbish." I'm just going to point out that I'm not going to call GM town because she seems allergic to that - let's just call her a cat in wolf's clothing.

I'm well-known for not bussing so I can't play the projected disagreement.

--

And now pushing massclaim? My vote is concrete.

(More seriously: I could maybe vote Creature too still & would probably be willing to deadline compromise on Cloud. That's it.)

--

Guys what are you doing we are not massclaiming til tomorrow

--

goodmorning - "Only scum is consistent, town will be all over the place no matter what"

that is not what i said at all

that is not it, at all.

^ this [cloud post] isn't scum

I kind of agree.

goodmorning was doing her usual thing of pushing unrealistic wagons by herself

thx hoopla

@GM, why did you vote for Rask when you did? You were reading him as town and Sotty7 as scum. That vote makes no sense to me and the reasoning was that you quoted Rask saying that he would lynch MariaR.

Because Maria is obvTown and I didn't like the way it looked like Rask was trying to make it a thing.

Was the context not clear?

--

damn, rask, back at it again with the confbias!

[goodmorning]

Maybe you should see if what Rask is saying is true, I have a lot of games you can check.

Not everyone can fake town meta.

Cold meta is less than useless and self-meta is not reassuring in the slightest.

--

@Maria: That's why I don't like wagon analysis.

[goodmorning]

Assuming that every scum plays the same is worse.

The only assumption I make about 100% of Scum players is that they're not morons.

[goodmorning]

I'm going to chime in in a bit but in the meantime, does anyone want to comment on why I'm still alive? In fact, I'd like everyone's comments on that. I was obviously right about Sotty7 which means I'm very likely wrong about someone else. I want to hear thoughts on who that could be.

oh.

Vote: BV

I agree this is an uncharacteristically airy remark from BV (BV; you ain't dead because twoface was very town D1 and we have masons soaking up NK's now), but why is it scummy?

It's the same kind of "this player is fairly new" scumtell as the "oh noes we lynched a PR D1" tell, if that makes sense?

Like, a kinda-sorta fake towntell?

[goodmorning]

Anyway it was the massclaim push that was the most concerning.

Reminded me a lot of Rainbowdash in some Open a while back.

[goodmorning]

Anyway it was the massclaim push that was the most concerning.

Reminded me a lot of Rainbowdash in some Open a while back.

O496.

[goodmorning]

This post gave me the heebie-jeebies though, and makes Cloud my top suspect atm:

And you sotty, i dont want to be a dick to you but you should really fucking step up your game if ur real, like now

"goddamn it Sotty, we really can't afford you to get lynched right now, step up your game so I don't have to suspect your claim more any more"

Since mafia can talk during the day, why wouldn't he just say this in his private chat? This is only a tell if communication between the mafia is restricted.

for a second i was excited about this being a pure scumtell

then i read the ruleset

now i'm sad

[goodmorning]

Sorry man, not good enough. I want to see a specific claim. You were quite intent on making anyone who reached L-1 claim. We can't just give you special treatment here and let you off with a vague "PR claim."

I'm pretty OK giving him a couple days to either prove it or give us enough rope to hang himself and his remaining partner.

p-edit: Hey Hoopla, do we setup spec maybe only 1 remaining Scum?

[goodmorning]

Can someone remind me how Cloud reacted to Sotty's claim?

[goodmorning]

Went and looked. If he's implying what I think he's implying I'm not sure it's at all believable.


p-edit: It only occurred to me based on how heavily some people weight Encryptor but you're probably right.

[goodmorning]

thx cloud

[goodmorning]

cloud people have already pushed you for various things

how many more do you actually need?

[goodmorning]

why they pushed you? they've already said why they've pushed you.

[goodmorning]

Because Maria is obvTown and I didn't like the way it looked like Rask was trying to make it a thing.

Pushing someone you townread is worse than pushing you?

Pushing someone like you looked like you were about to push Maria is worse than pushing someone because of silly confbias.

--

creature do you think mentioning the mason in your townbloc a lot is going to make them tr you?



because that idea is actually dumb enough that it just might work

--

BV's logic doesn't make SENSE
he was okay with pushing socty regardless of the tracker claim yeah?
So question why the unvote and "okay" from Cloud when cloud does even worse and just claims pr

Answer: Bv pushed on his partner for towncred and unvoted cloud because cloud is town.

GUYS THIS POINT IS PRETTY GOOD

Though it does make me a lil nervous you felt like qualifying that GM one tho.

damn, rask, back at it again with the conf-

wait, did i do that joke already? whoops.

[goodmorning]

creature do you think mentioning the mason in your townbloc a lot is going to make them tr you?



because that idea is actually dumb enough that it just might work

How can there be a true townblock without conftown on it?

why are you continually mentioning a townbloc at all?

Someone who's played with GM before - can you comment on the general accuracy of her reads? If she's normally accurate as town and doesn't bus as scum, having bad reads counts against her. If she's normally inaccurate as town, it isn't as telling. Accuracy is subjective but I'm just looking for opinions.

My efficacy varies wildly.

Calling the council of not dumb players to analyse 2236.

if you don't think that post is a pretty good point then you probably don't belong on that council yourself

but maybe that's none of my business.

--

definitely dumb enough to work jesus christ

never thought i'd want victor back but i really really do

--

Would also like to comment that BV was a major townread for me during my read and I'm confused as to why we're starting to entertain the theory that he was bussing sotty?

See also: my most recent posts on BV. Read them please.

And stop taking the consensus view of the game. You're confTown at this point, you should be a leader and not a follower.

--

Stop trying to lynch Maria.

This is a fucking hill I will probably die on but I don't care.

[goodmorning]

Would also like to comment that BV was a major townread for me during my read and I'm confused as to why we're starting to entertain the theory that he was bussing sotty?

See also: my most recent posts on BV. Read them please.

And stop taking the consensus view of the game. You're confTown at this point, you should be a leader and not a follower.

quoting this again because it's important and i suspect arona might not read my full posts because they're long

[goodmorning]

if you don't think that post is a pretty good point then you probably don't belong on that council yourself

No it isn't. The fact that I explained why and MariaR just ignored that and continued harping on it like it was a silver bullet showed me she just wanted something she could sell, and wasn't interested in trying to read me.

I didn't find your explanation at all convincing and I certainly don't get how you thought it was going to change Maria's mind.

[goodmorning]

@Rask: a song that accurately depicts my feelings towards your ridiculous confbias

@BV: a song that accurately depicts my interpretation of the general feeling behind your rebuttal of maria's post

[goodmorning]

Analysis of Gamestate:
So basically we're in 2 camps atm, which I'll refer to as apples and oranges because why not.

Apples: GM, Maria, Cloud, Hoopla
Oranges: Rask, Creature, BV, arona, Jaack?

Which means we all know who's getting lynched today.

I don't know where I was going with this. I volunteer as tribute?

[goodmorning]

I pointed out that I wasn't.

How could I forget that I had given her an extra key?

[goodmorning]

@GM, how did you forget about your Rask scumread from yesterday? The one you suddenly voted for when it looked like he could be lynched and now you are back to "Rask is conf-biasing."

Because Rask obvTowned, as I pointed out here:

Rask you're acting just like 1820 can you just take a step back ffs -_-

Can't be bothered. I could have lurked this day or just stuck on GM vanity style like a stubborn mule, but I go out of my way to reach out and try to get agreement and compromise and people just hate me for it.

...

Vote: IAI

BETTER QUICKLYNCH 10/10

You voted a lot of people that are flipped town or that I think are town or that I know to be town (Victor, IAI, Hoopla, Creature, me), but despite having Sotty7 as a supposed scumread, your vote was never seen there. Why? D1, you said you'd join the Sotty7 wagon. Why didn't that ever happen?

This was asked and answered about 300 posts ago:

well no, i don't

because i scumread sotty but the wagon on her is literally the worst


so i don't really know




but we shouldn't lynch a fucking pr claim day of

[goodmorning]

I am not claiming ever even with intent until its 2 days before the deadline. Hammering me here should be considered a full scumclaim and this wont change, i wont claim because theres a very fine reason that i dont want to, its better for town if i dont

Cloud. Everyone has reacted to your refusal to claim by now. You are impeding our ability to reach a lynch. Claim.

[goodmorning]

The bit that I quoted from Rask, that's the bit they obvtowned in.


It was an extremely honest piece of self-assessment and rang true with the kind of exhaustion you feel when it seems like nobody is listening to you. Probably the most genuine thing that anyone in the entire game has posted.

[goodmorning]

Analysis of Gamestate:
So basically we're in 2 camps atm, which I'll refer to as apples and oranges because why not.

Apples: GM, Maria, Cloud, Hoopla
Oranges: Rask, Creature, BV, arona, Jaack?

Which means we all know who's getting lynched today.

I don't know where I was going with this. I volunteer as tribute?

I sort of remember where I was going with this. It was something to do with Apples not being as cohesive a group as Oranges in terms of matching reads.

[goodmorning]

BV you're scumreading me for not remembering something pls my brain doesn't care to think about every fact that goes into this game I just think of something and post and if someone requests something of me I'll do it.

Fun fact: I once replaced into an Open and forgot what the setup was.

Then I was scumread to the end of time for it.

(I was not Scum.)

[goodmorning]

By the way, if Cloud doesn't claim in his next post, anyone that hammers him will be considered

confirmed town

in my book tomorrow and I won't entertain their lynch.

guys how are you not voting this?

@Maria: I mean tbqh it's mildly Town-indicative because Scum are rarely that stupid.

[goodmorning]

Maria, GM, back to this.

But to resond more specifically, I don't see why BV would have to bus sorry for towncred when he was the most consensus town player there was at the time. Sotty's lynch wasn't inevitable at the time so it's not like he had to move on it to mantain those townreads.

Why does BV as scum bus when already heavily townread? What does he gain from it?

Worry that he might not be if he didn't?

Also:
Just how heavily townread was he really? And how heavily townread did he personally feel? These are questions we can't really know the answer to.

--

Hoopla!

[goodmorning]

How do you look at 2369 vs 2370 and go YEP THAT'S TOWN ALRIGHT???????????????????????????

[goodmorning]

(Also,

V/LA until Saturday night

in case I didn't say)

[goodmorning]

For a functioning town, you need people working together, not divided into their own camps because it makes it harder to get a lynch.

I'm the person who gave the apples/oranges dichotomy a name, but I didn't cause it.

For that, look to Creature.

Also:

Vote: BV

Vote: BV

Vote: BV

Vote: BV

Vote: BV

Vote: BV

Vote: BV

--

ugh bodyguard is such a suck role

[goodmorning]

Despite everything I said, one of GM or Maria with hoopla is looking a little more reasonable than GM+Maria acting in the exact same fashion this past while as team >_>

Your reads are bad Rask stop it

i mean, it's true that we're not both scum so ????

@Cloud

Maria, GM, back to this.

But to resond more specifically, I don't see why BV would have to bus sorry for towncred when he was the most consensus town player there was at the time. Sotty's lynch wasn't inevitable at the time so it's not like he had to move on it to mantain those townreads.

Why does BV as scum bus when already heavily townread? What does he gain from it?

Rask. Hoopla, Maria, and I have all responded to this question already.

(And you reiterating it on this page does nothing to progress the gamestate.)

Alright, listen up APPLES

I'm a proud apple through and through but BV is pretty obviously town and I can't tow the party line on this one. Come on now!

hoopla i disagree

but i'll vote creature eventually

[goodmorning]

bv is 100000000% scum

but as i said

I volunteer as tribute?

I'm really interested to see who changes their reads after I flip Town (Rask, probably) and who doesn't (Creature, probably).

[goodmorning]

I don't have time now, I have to make pie.

[goodmorning]

I mean, I'm fine being lynched if it'll turn some oranges apple-y.

[goodmorning]

A. 17 pages whyyyy
B. why am i not dead yet? i was supposed to be lynched, remember?????

Hey maria!

Why does scum-BV risk antagonising me right after you/gm and sort-of-cloud push him?
What benefit does that give over just lynching GM if gm was actually town?

WK points for when I do get lynched like I asked??

The problem is even if you're town your reads are so different to mine your continued existence furthers scum agenda.

Rask 100% confirmed Town by this. No way Scum says something so dumb as "I'm completely right and you're completely wrong so you can sit and whistle."

She replaced into that game around mid-late d1, made a catchup, fluffed around the wagon similar to here d1 and was insta lynched on start of d2.
The game wasn't divided into 2 main camps and she didn't even get that far in so it's not really even comparable (and even then what do you make of that point? she didn't say apples/oranges in that game so it's a towntell?).

yo rask do you untownread creature yet?

@BV's matrix of possible scumpairs: I frequently null/slight Town read my scumpartners. Harddefending is not something I typically do.

I get that this is selfmeta but eh.

--

On to 108.

[goodmorning]

I keep forgetting Jaack is playing.

idk how to feel about that.

As I relearn every game, being a dick isn't scum indicative. If anything a trend to the opposite...

I find that I tend to act more like a dick when I'm Scum.
But I think there's something to the idea that Scum want to smooth things over, not ruffle feathers.

It's not "ehhh" GM hoopla is LITERALLY the case if you're the town in that trifecta.

EVER THINK YOU COULD BE WRONG FOR ONCE RASK???????

thx maria

Maria if you're town, I'm town, AND gm is town why has it been so ridiculously hard to push or wagon her this game?

Because Town people who TR me and/or Scum people who want me to continue to exist in this game so people keep trying to lynch me have been resisting it?

(Literally it's just a conspiracy to keep your confbias alive and well.)

when in rome

silly rask, this isn't road to rome

--

I dearly want Hoopla to be Town.

--

That's 112.

[goodmorning]

yowza, it's happening!!!

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Creature

Do we have a fifth willing to vote? If so, lets get a claim.

Me! Hope he's still at L-1 in 7 pages or so!

If you dolts lynch creature I'm not saying a word tomorrow.

No offense, but nobody is as accurate at meta reads as you think you are. He has a good chance of flipping scum.

I was once, but only when reading Wisdom.

--

Mason BV means it's Creature and one of Hoopla/Jaack, I guess?

--

I didn't even know 3 masons could be a thing.

You can have INFINITE MASONS

(I think there are a couple Open setups based on 3-4 Masons.)

We don't need to hammer just gotta wait for GM to come for any counter claim buddle talk etc

would i have volunteered as tribute if i had a pr maria pls

--

on to 118

[goodmorning]

The apples and oranges statement was a good statement because it was shockingly true

It's laughable that you of all people are casting doubt about the direction and leadership of our fine and honorable town captain, when your reads have been in the toilet all game.

yeah ok hoopla is scum

I feel like Hoopla is trolling at this point.

But regardless, the suspicion of me was from people that weren't on the Sotty7 lynch apparently thinking I bussed, blaming me for it is just silly. I'm not even sure who scum is anymore. I'll come back with a fresh head tomorrow. Hopefully GM has checked in by then. Please don't end the day until this happens and I get a chance to talk to GM about her reads and stuff. Then we'll see.

this is my last catchup post so throw me your Qs.

--

Summary:
Not lynching: masons, rask, maria
Lynching: anyone else i guess

[goodmorning]

If you're a Mason you're a Mason, no point getting all silly about it.

Well Maria is Town ok. Consistent 'omg let him catch up' could be Scum faking to look Town but I think Scum isn't that irritating about it.

maria is totally town btw

not sure if i've said that already but it's true

(new post note: this was RE: gamesolving feels in 1147-8)

@GM, why MariaR town? What happened to your Sotty7 scumread from D1?

Besides what I said in 694, I liked the tone of her rant @ you in 1171.

Plus Maria's reading a similar game to the one I'm reading, which helps.

Forgot Cloud! Cloud is also in Not lynching.

[goodmorning]

nv?

[goodmorning]

we're killing me today or not at all

that's it

lynch me right the fuck now