Mini Normal #1838 - Game Over

[Gamma Emerald]

I think Grendel is being a bit unfair as the only way I caught him last time was by copping him. I never even though he was a lurker that game, because he kept posting steadily.

[Grendel]

@Grendel, that was actually worth waiting for. I doubt we have to wait long for Gamma's response.

@Penguin, you made me LOL.

p-edit - LOL

One of my favorite things about Gamma as a player is that he is v prompt with his replies. He has never kept me waiting for long.

I think Grendel is being a bit unfair as the only way I caught him last time was by copping him. I never even though he was a lurker that game, because he kept posting steadily.

I'm speaking in retrospect, You have an idea what my scum game looks like, yet things I were expecting to ping you didn't, which made me think, "Why was Gamma claiming to meta me when things like x, and y didn't phase him."

Also I question why you bothered metaing me at all if I left you with the inclination that I was that unreadable in Eggernuats game.

Maybe because meta is an easy way to try and sort somebody as scum because you don't necessarily have to do anything. Right?

[Grendel]

Dude, just because I have agreed with you doesn't mean I townread you.

So if I was not ever town to you why did you sheep me... twice.

[Gamma Emerald]

Ah so the main thing is the meta. As I said, I didn't really make any connections with your scum play as you told me you didn't have a reliable scum meta.
I said I "sheeped" you because your case was close to mine.

[nn30]

Compare these quotes:

Bold is for my emphasis.

@Gamma Outside of how I opened my game why are you town reading me?

I would also like an explanation as why Implosion went from scum to town, and why Shadow step went from town to what ever "need to contribute" means.

Lastly What do you think of Penguin?

Pre-edit

@Grendel

I prefaced my post with a town read on you so that you know I'm not coming at you from an antagonistic point of view.

Hmm, okay. I thought you might be worried I'd brush you off or something.

Which I wouldn't have btw.

I never stated I townread you, but this is your normal townplay, so yeah I townread you because your play is towny.

As for why I townread Grendel, I guess it's just that this feels a lot like NPBR again.

Reads atm, not ordered by strentgh, just who I chose.

Grendel: town

Compared with this:

As for Grendel and Zoronos, those are others I need to reconsider. I've actually been fostering a Grendel scumread because of the fact I can't find anything to townread him on that's non-meta. I'm hoping things will be easier to sort with a flip.

Dude, just because I have agreed with you doesn't mean I townread you.

This feels like you need something to talk about, so you're inventing a scum read on Grendel in order to have some "content" to create.

[Gamma Emerald]

Okay I had a townread on Grendel. I can't remember every damn read I post okay?
And thanks for quoting that because now I don't have to do so to say this: the only meta I used was NPBR because, of course, Grendel claims to not have a unifying scum strategy.

[nn30]

Ah so the main thing is the meta. As I said, I didn't really make any connections with your scum play as you told me you didn't have a reliable scum meta.
I said I "sheeped" you because your case was close to mine.

He's still just sassily answering questions. I've found no strong example of him trying to build a case on someone. Saying "I don't town read Grendel" isn't exactly scum hunting.

[Grendel]

And as I said, me pre-defending myself on ties to Eager clears me.

Please stop. Anyone can "pre-defend" or otherwise attempt to derp clear themselves when they know who's what. The only thing you're doing by claiming to be cleared is throwing (me at least) through a too-scummy-to-be-scum loop.

Do you think Grendel has any point at all? Is anything he said true to you?

p-edit: the fact that I predicted you'd be around soon to respond and you ninja'd my prediction.

So what about you though. Do you see the validity of what I'm saying?

Ah so the main thing is the meta. As I said, I didn't really make any connections with your scum play as you told me you didn't have a reliable scum meta.
I said I "sheeped" you because your case was close to mine.

I don't understand why you brought it up if you didn't think you could reliably meta me in the first place.

Okay, you did provide a case the second time. I'll let the second one slide for now. How about the first time where you listed my exact reasoning as to why I thought Penguin was scum right after I said it?

[Grendel]

Okay I had a townread on Grendel. I can't remember every damn read I post okay?
And thanks for quoting that because now I don't have to do so to say this: the only meta I used was NPBR because, of course, Grendel claims to not have a unifying scum strategy.

Oh, so you were looking solo for town meta?

Why didn't you wait so long to specify this fact?

[Grendel]

*did

[podoboq]

Official Vote Count 2.10

Lynching

With 11 votes in play, it takes 6 to lynch.

Gamma Emerald (4): Shadow_step, Dierfire, Grendel, nn30
Penguin Power (2): Gamma Emerald, Zoronos
Lil Uzi Vert (2): boring, Prism
boring (1): implosion
Zoronos (1): PenguinPower

Not Voting (1): Lil Uzi Vert,

Deadline: (expired on 2016-10-30 12:31:00)

[boring]

So what about you though. Do you see the validity of what I'm saying?

It's your word against his. So this sets up the question of how sure I am about you. All I really need is to be more confident in my read on you than him.

You've both been town leans for me. His through meta, and yours through your play in this game. On principle, I think town leans earned in-game should trump meta.

My problem is, I've relied on meta with him because (I'm repeating myself) I find him impossible to follow. He's a nice enough fellow, and I value flexibility in a person, but I can't tell his head from his butt, and I don't think he can either, sometimes. I preyed on that in our last game because it makes him a really easy mislynch. I saw no difference in his playstyle, so I've spent the game thinking of him as scum bait.

It's a little lazy, but it's all I've got on someone so foreign to me.

You and he have a lot of experience together, from what I gather. So you're someone I'd have depend on for help reading him. You're saying he's scum. It looks like you're sticking your neck out to do so (which is something scum is less likely to do).

I think your point is valid. As is nn30's, which is riding along behind yours. Assuming you're town. But I think of the two of you, I have to choose you.

I'm very comfortable on LUV because scum, but if that wagon isn't happening today, I'm open to Gamma.

[Zoronos]

1769
That's a pretty cogent case. Not what I was expecting to see. I give no credence to meta, but you're clearly making conclusions that fit the facts *as you see them* (which when determining the towniness of a case is what matters more than the facts-as-they-are).

[implosion]

Of course you're disagree with it because I'm using it to call you scummy. The first half of 1463 was a justification of your playstyle before you wandered into a tone argument.

Yes... and then the second half of it was an attack on boring. I'm not sure what you're criticizing; should I have had more posts that are specifically dedicated to attacking boring? Like the first, second and fourth?

Reading 1295 again I think I was mistaken to call it defensive. It's just poor casing. You're quibbling about phrasing instead of exploring mindset, motivation, or intent.

This is somewhat true of the second half of 1295 (which I think is pretty clear from what I said is me thinking I misunderstood what she said and trying to clarify), but the first half is me continuing to elaborate on how I don't think her read on eagerSnake should have been as strong as it was based on the reasoning, which I think is an important thing to think about.

And that's my point - your personal rule and mine are different. However, you're hanging a case on it; you are using tone and manner-of-engagement as alignment indicating pillars. They're not, they vary depending on the style and mood of any given poster. That's why your case is bad. And bad cases built on NAI factors are scummy.
Also, I don't meta anyone - Meta is a waste of time and a one way trip to conf bias land.

So, if you want to help me lynch boring, cool, but I'd rather you do it with a case that isn't poop.

You say this as though it's objective fact. It really isn't. The degree to which intonation is an indicator of alignment is an extremely complicated question, and I think my example in my previous post shows that it's nonzero. I personally think it's a useful scumhunting tool. That isn't my "personal rule"; when I said that I was referring to my own playstyle, not the tools I use to scumhunt. Tone does vary based on style and mood; it also varies based on mindset, and it varies based on the actual thoughts going on in someone's head in a way that is often more difficult to convincingly fake than actual brute content. And I also just disagree on a very basic level that meta is a waste of time, from the perspective of scumhunting.

Calling my case scummy for being built on factors that you personally think area NAI and I do not (and if you want very simple proof that I do think that they're indicative of alignment, you can look at past town games of mine) is just nonsensical. You're the one projecting the way you play the game on others, not me.

[implosion]

You made the point (1068) that you don't see why boring would read eagerSnake as Town for the initial claim. I think that, from a probabilistic perspective, it makes more sense from a Town player claiming legitimately than from a Mafia player making a gamble (this is where I was after the initial claim). Whether that was a reason sufficient to justify the apparent strength of the read given by boring is a matter best answered by boring

I disagree that this is best answered by boring. Or at least, it's not a matter where we can simply take an answer from her at face value as being certainly true... because she can lie as scum. 73 is interesting, but it doesn't really strongly change my stance; it's just an earlier example where it seems strange for her to imply that eager is towny enough from the claim to be nked for being conftown.

So I have my POE on you, and my tilting on Shadow. Him being alive still, is questionable as well. Unless scum kept him alive as a potential mislynch. Of course, your post seems like exactly the thing scum would do if disappointed that their easy mislynch candidate is being ignored (i.e., trying to maneuver a tunnelee into a vote).

Okay. So you're subtly implying that I'm manipulating you to vote shadow. While I forever have and still am loudly calling him the strongest townread i have. And there is no momentum on him, and very few people have considered him today (which was the entire point I was making).

I very much question the narrative that if I'm scum here shadow is my easy mislynch candidate. If anything if you're town and I'm scum here you would be my easy mislynch candidate, since you were the counterwagon to the town wagon I was decrying all day yesterday and plenty of people have indicated interest in voting you. But instead, you imply that I'm trying to manipulate you, the person who i have been tunneling for half the game, into voting for the person who i have been yelling at everyone to stop considering as possible scum.

Ugh.

[Zoronos]

Implosion - You just wrote a whole lot of words, and I'm having trouble understanding whether you're just arguing with folks (maybe you see it as defending yourself, but w/e I'm less interested in that), or developing scum reads on them.

Are you scum reading Boring / Dier here?

[implosion]

And hey, why not, theorypost/metarant.

Meta is a tool, just like any other tool in the kit of scumhunting. It's misapplied more often than others, but it is ultimately necessary in some cases. Some players tend to have specific patterns as specific alignments in such ways that directly contradict those patterns in other players. Some players are more aggressive as mafia, some as town; some are more active as each alignment; some are more logical or more logically consistent as each alignment; and so on.

To the degree that that is accurate, meta is an indispensable tool when used correctly. There are actions that can be taken that may be acutely indicative of alignment in different directions on different players. Take for example you (Zoronos) criticizing me for attacking based on tone, and calling it scummy. If you meta me, you will find very objective proof that I do, in fact, do such things as town. You can find games where I have made arguments as town based on tone. That very simple, undisputable meta fact means that calling a point I've made scummy based on tone is inaccurate, unless you can show a trend where I don't do it frequently in my towngames and do do it frequently in my scumgames. That's the simplest application of meta, and also probably the least disputable IMO - using meta to show a simple fact that a player does do something as some alignment, and that they do it frequently as that alignment, so that it can't be accurately used as a tell that the player isn't that alignment.

My use of meta on PP is, admittedly, much shakier. It's based on a single game, in a significantly different context. That context does matter; it might be more likely for PP to display this kind of behavior as scum in this game because it's not a newbie game, or because the person he's arguing with isn't a newbie game IC. But based on the scum play I saw in that game, the tactics he'd have had to be employing as scum when he talked to Grendel just don't seem like his style; the way he was condescending is not like the way he was argumentative towards me. I think that him being condescending towards Grendel in the way that he was would have required thought processes and a way of looking at this game that I just don't think PP would be capable of given what I saw of his scumgame. Or, at the very least, I am confident that the condescension was not faked, and I think that genuine condescension in that case is indicative that he was town disgruntled by someone saying something that he saw as really stupid.

Are you scum reading Boring / Dier here?

boring obviously yes. Dier I'm still digesting a bit; I think I might actually have an inkling of a scumread contingent on boring being scum, but I don't like putting stock in contingent reads on unflipped people, and I wasn't intending to communicate that in my response to him. His post towards me is overall just a dry response to what I said. Which is tough to read much off of.

The response I gave to Dier is just an argument, it's not an alignment-based criticism.

[implosion]

I also think I actually dislike the GE wagon which is :S given that I really didn't think anything he did in the first 20ish pages was even vaguely townish. He just keeps making posts now that ping me as town... hold me to justifying that tomorrow.

[Zoronos]

Why is Boring scum?
Your post above read like a defense of boring calling you scum, not an offensive action to either get a read on her / clarify your read on her, or an attempt to convince the rest of us that your read is the right one.

[Zoronos]

"Post above" -> 1789.
Sorry, that was ambiguous since you wrote a whole bunch of :words: and it wasn't clear which post I was referring to.

[podoboq]

Shadow_step has been prodded

[Shadow_step]

Prodded

happy with where my vote is ATM, still not properly caught up. Will do it during the weekend. Just busier IRL

[podoboq]

Prism and Lil Uzi Vert have been prodded.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Woah, forgot about this game. I read up and this what I have so far.

I'm a little disturbed by Penguin's push on Zoro. It reads as if he's not been reading what Zoro been asking and thinking. Just skimming. Zoro has been sorting like a mad man and his conclusions and observations have been worth the read so far.

I also don't forget how you can forget a read on someone. This is the only thing that has pinged me about Gamma really. I find it hard to believe and the only explanation that seems to make sense is that he's faking his reads. The question then becomes, is this some sort of next level strategy to catch scum or is he scum feeling pressured to put up content?

[Zoronos]

zzz

Nobody posting such boring.
The condition not the player.

Actually, hey Boring who do you think is the scum and why?