Mini Normal #1838 - Game Over

[Zoronos]

Literally nobody likes my case on Penguin? He has done absolutely fucking nothing all day D2, and basically did nothing D1, but "Nah, that's cool, let's just ignore him"?

You people.

[Gamma Emerald]

I'd vote him again if the wagon had one more person. He's a stronger scumread than LUV but I'm doing what I can to avoid being forced to claim under an intent statement.

[Zoronos]

Also, Grendel, your notes need some work or you actually need to read my posts since:
a) I have been pretty clear I think Implosion is likely-scum. I just can't seem to get anyone else to agree with that point, or if they do they hand wring about it.
b) I said back on D1 that I thought Gamma was lean town. Also, the word is 'cogent' not 'cognizant'.
You probably want to read closer if you think I have had remarkably little to say about Gamma.
c) Why the heck do you think Boring is town?

[Zoronos]

I'd vote him again if the wagon had one more person. He's a stronger scumread than LUV but I'm doing what I can to avoid being forced to claim under an intent statement.

And that fills me with fucking confidence.
</sarc>

[Grendel]

Also, Grendel, your notes need some work or you actually need to read my posts since:
a) I have been pretty clear I think Implosion is likely-scum. I just can't seem to get anyone else to agree with that point, or if they do they hand wring about it.
b) I said back on D1 that I thought Gamma was lean town. Also, the word is 'cogent' not 'cognizant'.
You probably want to read closer if you think I have had remarkably little to say about Gamma.
c) Why the heck do you think Boring is town?

C.
Something i was thinking about earlier was, “why would boring night kill Maria in the first place?” It looks like one of the worst possible kills for boring!scum. Doing so would box her in and defeat her, “scum on my wagon” theory. She had herself set up today to scum hunt off the wagon that formed on her yesterday. By killing off that wagon she reduces her mislynch options, and she is forced to back track at the start of the day. I don’t see why boring would intentionally botch her plans for day play, and create more work for herself. AS scum she’d want as few contradictions in her play as she could get, the kill last night would not help this. It doesn’t get me as much as the previous point, but were i come from many scum are scared to strike down one of their most vocal attackers N1. Not saying that scum don’t here, but it still takes a ballzy scum player to pull a kill like that because it _will_ draw attention to them.

If she were scum last night’s kill must have been with another players benefit in mind. What I’m thinking is that if boring were scum she isn’t getting set up to go deep, which means at least one of these three things. 1) That she isn’t a scum PR 2) She is the least town read member of her team 3) She is not the leader of the scum lords. (2) has scary implications i don’t feel like considering right now. (3) points to Zoronos as scum since Implosion makes no sense with Boring.

A.
You lack of a vote or memorable aggression on Implosion's slot makes the back and forth between your interactions look like two dudes just having a regular debate that isn't furthering a read for you. The only reason that comes to my mind as to why this could be so it that it is meant to be conflict taken at face value. That the two of you are just distancing. Also, if an Implosion wagon comes up in future and you aren't on it you'd better believe I'm going to make this an issue.

B.
If you had Gamma as a town lean D1, why would you ever vote him?
When you talked about how scum are hiding behind bad play, were you not referring to Gamma?

[Gamma Emerald]

Yo Grendel: formatting requires BBCode here.

[Grendel]

Literally nobody likes my case on Penguin? He has done absolutely fucking nothing all day D2, and basically did nothing D1, but "Nah, that's cool, let's just ignore him"?

You people.

I'd vote him again if the wagon had one more person. He's a stronger scumread than LUV but I'm doing what I can to avoid being forced to claim under an intent statement.

And that fills me with fucking confidence.
</sarc>

-Look at the genuine frustration that hasn't been done to death for town cred this game-

/sarcasm

So why are you town reading Gamma anyways?

Yo Grendel: formatting requires BBCode here.

*Thank you*

_I had totally forgotten_

[Grendel]

@My town pool.

If some of you could spare the time I'd like some secondary opinions on my post at 1847. I want to know if you all see what I see.

[Grendel]

But I've done it multiple times. Do you think I would be so bad as scum to screw up so much? Do you think I wouldn't have been told in daychat what to say?

Most day chats I have read had little, "No no, don't do that, do this instead", probably because post coached play can be pretty OB.

I am not a fan of all the vocal undermining of you capabilities. You are much smarter then you are making yourself out to be these last few pages.

Is Desperation Day your only completed scum game on this site?

[Gamma Emerald]

Yes Desperation Day is my only completed game.

[Zoronos]

B.
If you had Gamma as a town lean D1, why would you ever vote him?
When you talked about how scum are hiding behind bad play, were you not referring to Gamma?

Because I was annoyed at his persistent uselessness. Useless town reads are the fucking worst because lynching them is against win con, but you can't actually get them to help kill scum.

[boring]

Literally nobody likes my case on Penguin? He has done absolutely fucking nothing all day D2, and basically did nothing D1, but "Nah, that's cool, let's just ignore him"?

You people.

I've said that i like your argument on PP. I like Grendel's argument on Gamma. But unless the scum team is LUV+Gamma+PP, the situation bears some further scrutiny. (if the scum team is them, and we lose, we should all permaban ourselves in shame).

You say "On the other hand, he might not be scum" which is kinda true for every player in this game. Which side do you think is more likely? My apologies, but having an on-the-other-hand makes this read seem a bit wishy-washy.

That's because it is wishy-washy. I'm afraid to risk another TvT day when there are 2-3 other scum running around. His posts feel scummy. His big-picture is scummy. When it comes to inferring motivation, I'm falling a little short. He could be trying to stir up trouble and get some easy mislynches. I'm pretty low-hanging fruit right now, and everyone knows it. But, I have to ask myself whether I'd still see him in a scummy light if he was tunneling someone else instead of me? Am I having a knee-jerk reaction?

Your partial validation of my observations helps. I know Prism was after him a while back, and I'd like to see an update on implosion from him. Dierfire also appears to have a problem at least with this approach, but I'm not sure if he's inferring alignment with it. His perspective could also help. I think the three of you are town. I also think nn30 and Grendel are town. So their views won't hurt either.

I feel like you didn't really answer my question.
When you say you're afraid you don't want to risk another TvT day is that because your read on Implosion is just a slight lean versus a full blown This Is The Scum Vote It Now? Or something else?

Sorry, yes. I think implosion is scummy. I'm just hesitant to go down that rabbit hole for the reasons stated above. I need more info before I'd feel comfortable pushing a wagon on him like I'm doing LUV. I know my read on LUV isn't reactionary.

[Zoronos]

Also, Grendel, your notes need some work or you actually need to read my posts since:
a) I have been pretty clear I think Implosion is likely-scum. I just can't seem to get anyone else to agree with that point, or if they do they hand wring about it.
b) I said back on D1 that I thought Gamma was lean town. Also, the word is 'cogent' not 'cognizant'.
You probably want to read closer if you think I have had remarkably little to say about Gamma.
c) Why the heck do you think Boring is town?

C.
Something i was thinking about earlier was, “why would boring night kill Maria in the first place?” It looks like one of the worst possible kills for boring!scum. Doing so would box her in and defeat her, “scum on my wagon” theory. She had herself set up today to scum hunt off the wagon that formed on her yesterday. By killing off that wagon she reduces her mislynch options, and she is forced to back track at the start of the day. I don’t see why boring would intentionally botch her plans for day play, and create more work for herself. AS scum she’d want as few contradictions in her play as she could get, the kill last night would not help this. It doesn’t get me as much as the previous point, but were i come from many scum are scared to strike down one of their most vocal attackers N1. Not saying that scum don’t here, but it still takes a ballzy scum player to pull a kill like that because it _will_ draw attention to them.

If she were scum last night’s kill must have been with another players benefit in mind. What I’m thinking is that if boring were scum she isn’t getting set up to go deep, which means at least one of these three things. 1) That she isn’t a scum PR 2) She is the least town read member of her team 3) She is not the leader of the scum lords. (2) has scary implications i don’t feel like considering right now. (3) points to Zoronos as scum since Implosion makes no sense with Boring.

A.
You lack of a vote or memorable aggression on Implosion's slot makes the back and forth between your interactions look like two dudes just having a regular debate that isn't furthering a read for you. The only reason that comes to my mind as to why this could be so it that it is meant to be conflict taken at face value. That the two of you are just distancing. Also, if an Implosion wagon comes up in future and you aren't on it you'd better believe I'm going to make this an issue.

B.
If you had Gamma as a town lean D1, why would you ever vote him?
When you talked about how scum are hiding behind bad play, were you not referring to Gamma?

c) NK spec is awful play. Do you have a non NK-speculation based reason? Because I haven't seen Boring doing much of any scum hunting today. So, maybe that's exactly what happened. She left herself no where to scum hunt, so she just hasn't and we're all kinda excusing that.
But I'll indulge you for just a monent - because it's one less person voting Boring. That's pro-scum if Boring is scum. Town has an amazing capacity to WIFOM themselves out of obvious explanations.
NK's are a place where town fundamentally don't have enough information to figure out the answer, so it's best, imo, ignored. It's playing a card game without knowing which cards are in the deck.

a) Seriously? Stop being dumb. How many times do you want me to repeat that I think he's scum. If I thought I could get a train, I'd move my vote right this moment. Penguin is a stronger read but I can't get a train going on him either because you guys are busy voting my town reads but oh well.

b) Yup - But I was also referring to you, LUV, Implosion, and Penguin. (Obviously that list is massively too large to be scum). We have a lot of folks playing badly or lurky, and generically non-contributory.

[Zoronos]

I've said that i like your argument on PP. I like Grendel's argument on Gamma. But unless the scum team is LUV+Gamma+PP, the situation bears some further scrutiny. (if the scum team is them, and we lose, we should all permaban ourselves in shame).

I don't think I believe there can be a Gamma+PP scum team. Based on their D1 arguments I just can't bring myself to countenance that being the case.

re: Grendel's arguemt: I think Grendel's conclusions follow from his premise, and he presented it quite well. However, it's fundamentally a meta argument, and I give no shits about meta. So it tells me that Grendel is probably town because it looks like genuine scum hunting. But in terms of "Meta says X!" I just kinda shrug and move on.

[Zoronos]

I wonder if the possibility of an LUV / Implosion / PP team exists... idk.
Have I just been completely wrong about Boring this entire time?

[Grendel]

Spoiler: stuff

Also, Grendel, your notes need some work or you actually need to read my posts since:
a) I have been pretty clear I think Implosion is likely-scum. I just can't seem to get anyone else to agree with that point, or if they do they hand wring about it.
b) I said back on D1 that I thought Gamma was lean town. Also, the word is 'cogent' not 'cognizant'.
You probably want to read closer if you think I have had remarkably little to say about Gamma.
c) Why the heck do you think Boring is town?

C.
Something i was thinking about earlier was, “why would boring night kill Maria in the first place?” It looks like one of the worst possible kills for boring!scum. Doing so would box her in and defeat her, “scum on my wagon” theory. She had herself set up today to scum hunt off the wagon that formed on her yesterday. By killing off that wagon she reduces her mislynch options, and she is forced to back track at the start of the day. I don’t see why boring would intentionally botch her plans for day play, and create more work for herself. AS scum she’d want as few contradictions in her play as she could get, the kill last night would not help this. It doesn’t get me as much as the previous point, but were i come from many scum are scared to strike down one of their most vocal attackers N1. Not saying that scum don’t here, but it still takes a ballzy scum player to pull a kill like that because it _will_ draw attention to them.

If she were scum last night’s kill must have been with another players benefit in mind. What I’m thinking is that if boring were scum she isn’t getting set up to go deep, which means at least one of these three things. 1) That she isn’t a scum PR 2) She is the least town read member of her team 3) She is not the leader of the scum lords. (2) has scary implications i don’t feel like considering right now. (3) points to Zoronos as scum since Implosion makes no sense with Boring.

A.
You lack of a vote or memorable aggression on Implosion's slot makes the back and forth between your interactions look like two dudes just having a regular debate that isn't furthering a read for you. The only reason that comes to my mind as to why this could be so it that it is meant to be conflict taken at face value. That the two of you are just distancing. Also, if an Implosion wagon comes up in future and you aren't on it you'd better believe I'm going to make this an issue.

B.
If you had Gamma as a town lean D1, why would you ever vote him?
When you talked about how scum are hiding behind bad play, were you not referring to Gamma?

c) NK spec is awful play. Do you have a non NK-speculation based reason? Because I haven't seen Boring doing much of any scum hunting today. So, maybe that's exactly what happened. She left herself no where to scum hunt, so she just hasn't and we're all kinda excusing that.
But I'll indulge you for just a monent - because it's one less person voting Boring. That's pro-scum if Boring is scum. Town has an amazing capacity to WIFOM themselves out of obvious explanations.
NK's are a place where town fundamentally don't have enough information to figure out the answer, so it's best, imo, ignored. It's playing a card game without knowing which cards are in the deck.

a) Seriously? Stop being dumb. How many times do you want me to repeat that I think he's scum. If I thought I could get a train, I'd move my vote right this moment. Penguin is a stronger read but I can't get a train going on him either because you guys are busy voting my town reads but oh well.

b) Yup - But I was also referring to you, LUV, Implosion, and Penguin. (Obviously that list is massively too large to be scum). We have a lot of folks playing badly or lurky, and generically non-contributory.

I'm not gonna sit here an argue about theory any more then I have too. But I do believe that NK analysis has some uses, and it has short comings, I feel it is more useful then it is useless. So I do partake.

Why is Gamma Town?

Why am I being dismissed as bad town here? Is it just because I like using meta as a scum hunting tool?

[Grendel]

I've said that i like your argument on PP. I like Grendel's argument on Gamma. But unless the scum team is LUV+Gamma+PP, the situation bears some further scrutiny. (if the scum team is them, and we lose, we should all permaban ourselves in shame).

I don't think I believe there can be a Gamma+PP scum team. Based on their D1 arguments I just can't bring myself to countenance that being the case.

re: Grendel's arguemt: I think Grendel's conclusions follow from his premise, and he presented it quite well. However, it's fundamentally a meta argument, and I give no shits about meta. So it tells me that Grendel is probably town because it looks like genuine scum hunting. But in terms of "Meta says X!" I just kinda shrug and move on.

I don't think it can be GammaXPengiun. Gamma seemed perfectly happy to see Penguin strung up when he sheeped me.

[boring]

@zoronos - I've found my scum, made my case, and I've staked out a few more options. Sure, I have one more scum read than there are scum, but I'm working on it. I've hunted down some town too, whom I'm using as a gauge for my own reads.

So I don't know where you get off saying I've not been hunting. Especially with all your largely voteless posturing.

Vote LUV, and find out how much hunting I've done.

[Zoronos]

I'm not gonna sit here an argue about theory any more then I have too. But I do believe that NK analysis has some uses, and it has short comings, I feel it is more useful then it is useless. So I do partake.

Why is Gamma Town?

Why am I being dismissed as bad town here? Is it just because I like using meta as a scum hunting tool?

Because you're making classic mistakes; you're overvaluing meta, you're engaging deep in NK spec, during D1 you constructed elaborate explanations for RVS questions, you're constructing elaborate pre-flip associatives, etc. You look, to me, like you're trying to solve the game and that makes you town, which means I want to work with you. However, it's really frustrating because from my perspective you're jumping into holes over and over.

I layed out my reasons for Gamma being town back on D1, if you are too lazy to find them in ISO, the basics was that he was playing actively anti-charistmatically, but wasn't using those objections to drive a scum case. Basically, he was playing in a fashion that made himself easier to lynch and that was likely to induce prejudice, which is against the scum win-con.
For the D2 case, he's basically just playing like an idiot - His play right now is in no way contributing to a scum win con. He's not playing to survive, at least not constructively. He's under pressure and is flailing, but is making absolutely no effort to conceal that flail. If he were scum and my train were the mislynch (or boring's), he'd have been massively incentivized to vote park and then not participate further. Instead, he painted a massive target on his back by acting loud and crazy.
If he's scum, then his scum game plan is awful and makes no sense. It looks the same to me as the behavior of Eager at the end of D1.
So yeah, I don't really want to lynch him.

[Zoronos]

I don't think it can be GammaXPengiun. Gamma seemed perfectly happy to see Penguin strung up when he sheeped me.

I was actually thinking more about their argument when Penguin was in danger of being strung up on D1. That looked reasonably genuine, rather than like distancing. But your point here is a good one.

[Zoronos]

@zoronos - I've found my scum, made my case, and I've staked out a few more options. Sure, I have one more scum read than there are scum, but I'm working on it. I've hunted down some town too, whom I'm using as a gauge for my own reads.

So I don't know where you get off saying I've not been hunting. Especially with all your largely voteless posturing.

Vote LUV, and find out how much hunting I've done.

@zoronos - I've found my scum, made my case, and I've staked out a few more options. Sure, I have one more scum read than there are scum, but I'm working on it. I've hunted down some town too, whom I'm using as a gauge for my own reads.So I don't know where you get off saying I've not been hunting. Especially with all your largely voteless posturing. Vote LUV, and find out how much hunting I've done.

I feel you've been much more reactive than pro-active, but if I can't get any traction on PP, my vote will be on LUV because I don't think it's going on Gamma at this juncture.
My vote is exactly where it should be and I find it crazy that nobody else will join me here. PP has done *nothing* today. How is that possibly town play? The heat is off him, so he just nope'd out of playing.

[PenguinPower]

PP has done *nothing* today.

Found scum. Might be unpopular, but found it. End game should be fun to see. Do I really need to write out lots of words, theories, and arguments? Those really tend to end up wrong and meaning nothing.

I'll hammer Gamma if that's the consensus towards end of day. Still 8 left.

[Grendel]

I layed out my reasons for Gamma being town back on D1, if you are too lazy to find them in ISO, the basics was that he was playing actively anti-charistmatically, but wasn't using those objections to drive a scum case. Basically, he was playing in a fashion that made himself easier to lynch and that was likely to induce prejudice, which is against the scum win-con.
For the D2 case, he's basically just playing like an idiot - His play right now is in no way contributing to a scum win con. He's not playing to survive, at least not constructively. He's under pressure and is flailing, but is making absolutely no effort to conceal that flail. If he were scum and my train were the mislynch (or boring's), he'd have been massively incentivized to vote park and then not participate further. Instead, he painted a massive target on his back by acting loud and crazy.

If he's scum, then his scum game plan is awful and makes no sense. It looks the same to me as the behavior of Eager at the end of D1.
So yeah, I don't really want to lynch him.

Okay, so if you reasoning for Gamma!town today is that his play style isn't helping move a scum win-con. How is Penguin's laziness going to help his win-con as scum?

Low content posting will most likely result in Penguin's lynch if he keeps it up over time.

The trouble with your D1 Gamma case is that Gamma always plays in that manner. You're town reading him for reasons I find non-AI as far as Gamma goes.

[PenguinPower]

The trouble with your D1 Gamma case is that Gamma always plays in that manner. You're town reading him for reasons I find non-AI as far as Gamma goes.

I do, begrudgingly, have to support this. He was almost mislynched in a newbie game I was obvscum in because he just wears it on his sleeve.

[Zoronos]

Okay, so if you reasoning for Gamma!town today is that his play style isn't helping move a scum win-con. How is Penguin's laziness going to help his win-con as scum?

Low content posting will most likely result in Penguin's lynch if he keeps it up over time.

The trouble with your D1 Gamma case is that Gamma always plays in that manner. You're town reading him for reasons I find non-AI as far as Gamma goes.

Lurking is a great way to avoid lynches, and is exactly what Penguin is doing. I mean, he's got one vote on him (mine). Lurking is a strong scum strategy because there's nothing to hang a case off of. It's really hard to get people to agree to lynch the guy just not posting because there's almost nothing in his history to grab and say "This is a scummy post". Nobody is paying attention to him, or at least he's nobody's TOP SCUM (other than mine), so I'd say it's advancing a scum win con great. He's being forgotten, and he's not contributing to town. He's not collaborating with his town reads (does he have any? I couldn't really say), he's not investigating.

I explained my D1 read in greater depth earlier, it's in my ISO if you want to go find it. I certainly don't know how he 'always plays' but it strikes me as a really stupid way to play scum to start by immediately offending town players. His play just doesn't seem survival-oriented, at least not in any effective way.