In post 1851, Gamma Emerald wrote:I'd vote him again if the wagon had one more person. He's a stronger scumread than LUV but I'm doing what I can to avoid being forced to claim under an intent statement.
Zoronos wrote:Also, Grendel, your notes need some work or you actually need to read my posts since:
a) I have been pretty clear I think Implosion is likely-scum. I just can't seem to get anyone else to agree with that point, or if they do they hand wring about it.
b) I said back on D1 that I thought Gamma was lean town. Also, the word is 'cogent' not 'cognizant'.
You probably want to read closer if you think I have had remarkably little to say about Gamma.
c) Why the heck do you think Boring is town?
Zoronos wrote:Literally nobody likes my case on Penguin? He has done absolutely fucking nothing all day D2, and basically did nothing D1, but "Nah, that's cool, let's just ignore him"?
You people.
Gamma Emerald wrote:Yo Grendel: formatting requires BBCode here.
In post 1835, Gamma Emerald wrote:But I've done it multiple times. Do you think I would be so bad as scum to screw up so much? Do you think I wouldn't have been told in daychat what to say?
In post 1854, Grendel wrote:B.
If you had Gamma as a town lean D1, why would you ever vote him?
When you talked about how scum are hiding behind bad play, were you not referring to Gamma?
In post 1850, Zoronos wrote:Literally nobody likes my case on Penguin? He has done absolutely fucking nothing all day D2, and basically did nothing D1, but "Nah, that's cool, let's just ignore him"?
You people.
In post 1830, Zoronos wrote:In post 1816, boring wrote:That's because it is wishy-washy. I'm afraid to risk another TvT day when there are 2-3 other scum running around. His posts feel scummy. His big-picture is scummy. When it comes to inferring motivation, I'm falling a little short. He could be trying to stir up trouble and get some easy mislynches. I'm pretty low-hanging fruit right now, and everyone knows it. But, I have to ask myself whether I'd still see him in a scummy light if he was tunneling someone else instead of me? Am I having a knee-jerk reaction?In post 1810, Zoronos wrote:You say "On the other hand, he might not be scum" which is kinda true for every player in this game. Which side do you think is more likely? My apologies, but having an on-the-other-hand makes this read seem a bit wishy-washy.
Your partial validation of my observations helps. I know Prism was after him a while back, and I'd like to see an update on implosion from him. Dierfire also appears to have a problem at least with this approach, but I'm not sure if he's inferring alignment with it. His perspective could also help. I think the three of you are town. I also think nn30 and Grendel are town. So their views won't hurt either.
I feel like you didn't really answer my question.
When you say you're afraid you don't want to risk another TvT day is that because your read on Implosion is just a slight lean versus a full blown This Is The Scum Vote It Now? Or something else?
In post 1854, Grendel wrote:Zoronos wrote:Also, Grendel, your notes need some work or you actually need to read my posts since:
a) I have been pretty clear I think Implosion is likely-scum. I just can't seem to get anyone else to agree with that point, or if they do they hand wring about it.
b) I said back on D1 that I thought Gamma was lean town. Also, the word is 'cogent' not 'cognizant'.
You probably want to read closer if you think I have had remarkably little to say about Gamma.
c) Why the heck do you think Boring is town?
C.
Something i was thinking about earlier was, “why would boring night kill Maria in the first place?” It looks like one of the worst possible kills for boring!scum. Doing so would box her in and defeat her, “scum on my wagon” theory. She had herself set up today to scum hunt off the wagon that formed on her yesterday. By killing off that wagon she reduces her mislynch options, and she is forced to back track at the start of the day. I don’t see why boring would intentionally botch her plans for day play, and create more work for herself. AS scum she’d want as few contradictions in her play as she could get, the kill last night would not help this. It doesn’t get me as much as the previous point, but were i come from many scum are scared to strike down one of their most vocal attackers N1. Not saying that scum don’t here, but it still takes a ballzy scum player to pull a kill like that because it _will_ draw attention to them.
If she were scum last night’s kill must have been with another players benefit in mind. What I’m thinking is that if boring were scum she isn’t getting set up to go deep, which means at least one of these three things. 1) That she isn’t a scum PR 2) She is the least town read member of her team 3) She is not the leader of the scum lords. (2) has scary implications i don’t feel like considering right now. (3) points to Zoronos as scum since Implosion makes no sense with Boring.
A.
You lack of a vote or memorable aggression on Implosion's slot makes the back and forth between your interactions look like two dudes just having a regular debate that isn't furthering a read for you. The only reason that comes to my mind as to why this could be so it that it is meant to be conflict taken at face value. That the two of you are just distancing. Also, if an Implosion wagon comes up in future and you aren't on it you'd better believe I'm going to make this an issue.
B.
If you had Gamma as a town lean D1, why would you ever vote him?
When you talked about how scum are hiding behind bad play, were you not referring to Gamma?
In post 1861, boring wrote:I've said that i like your argument on PP. I like Grendel's argument on Gamma. But unless the scum team is LUV+Gamma+PP, the situation bears some further scrutiny. (if the scum team is them, and we lose, we should all permaban ourselves in shame).
In post 1862, Zoronos wrote:Spoiler: stuff
c) NK spec is awful play. Do you have a non NK-speculation based reason? Because I haven't seen Boring doing much of any scum hunting today. So, maybe that's exactly what happened. She left herself no where to scum hunt, so she just hasn't and we're all kinda excusing that.
But I'll indulge you for just a monent - because it's one less person voting Boring. That's pro-scum if Boring is scum. Town has an amazing capacity to WIFOM themselves out of obvious explanations.
NK's are a place where town fundamentally don't have enough information to figure out the answer, so it's best, imo, ignored. It's playing a card game without knowing which cards are in the deck.
a) Seriously? Stop being dumb. How many times do you want me to repeat that I think he's scum. If I thought I could get a train, I'd move my vote right this moment. Penguin is a stronger read but I can't get a train going on him either because you guys are busy voting my town reads but oh well.
b) Yup - But I was also referring to you, LUV, Implosion, and Penguin. (Obviously that list is massively too large to be scum). We have a lot of folks playing badly or lurky, and generically non-contributory.
In post 1863, Zoronos wrote:In post 1861, boring wrote:I've said that i like your argument on PP. I like Grendel's argument on Gamma. But unless the scum team is LUV+Gamma+PP, the situation bears some further scrutiny. (if the scum team is them, and we lose, we should all permaban ourselves in shame).
I don't think I believe there can be a Gamma+PP scum team. Based on their D1 arguments I just can't bring myself to countenance that being the case.
re: Grendel's arguemt: I think Grendel's conclusions follow from his premise, and he presented it quite well. However, it's fundamentally a meta argument, and I give no shits about meta. So it tells me that Grendel is probably town because it looks like genuine scum hunting. But in terms of "Meta says X!" I just kinda shrug and move on.
In post 1865, Grendel wrote:I'm not gonna sit here an argue about theory any more then I have too. But I do believe that NK analysis has some uses, and it has short comings, I feel it is more useful then it is useless. So I do partake.
Why is Gamma Town?
Why am I being dismissed as bad town here? Is it just because I like using meta as a scum hunting tool?
In post 1866, Grendel wrote:I don't think it can be GammaXPengiun. Gamma seemed perfectly happy to see Penguin strung up when he sheeped me.
In post 1867, boring wrote:@zoronos - I've found my scum, made my case, and I've staked out a few more options. Sure, I have one more scum read than there are scum, but I'm working on it. I've hunted down some town too, whom I'm using as a gauge for my own reads.
So I don't know where you get off saying I've not been hunting. Especially with all your largely voteless posturing.
Vote LUV, and find out how much hunting I've done.
@zoronos - I've found my scum, made my case, and I've staked out a few more options. Sure, I have one more scum read than there are scum, but I'm working on it. I've hunted down some town too, whom I'm using as a gauge for my own reads.So I don't know where you get off saying I've not been hunting. Especially with all your largely voteless posturing. Vote LUV, and find out how much hunting I've done.
In post 1870, Zoronos wrote:PP has done *nothing* today.
Zoronos wrote:I layed out my reasons for Gamma being town back on D1, if you are too lazy to find them in ISO, the basics was that he was playing actively anti-charistmatically, but wasn't using those objections to drive a scum case. Basically, he was playing in a fashion that made himself easier to lynch and that was likely to induce prejudice, which is against the scum win-con.
For the D2 case, he's basically just playing like an idiot - His play right now is in no way contributing to a scum win con. He's not playing to survive, at least not constructively. He's under pressure and is flailing, but is making absolutely no effort to conceal that flail. If he were scum and my train were the mislynch (or boring's), he'd have been massively incentivized to vote park and then not participate further. Instead, he painted a massive target on his back by acting loud and crazy.
If he's scum, then his scum game plan is awful and makes no sense. It looks the same to me as the behavior of Eager at the end of D1.
So yeah, I don't really want to lynch him.
In post 1872, Grendel wrote:The trouble with your D1 Gamma case is that Gamma always plays in that manner. You're town reading him for reasons I find non-AI as far as Gamma goes.
In post 1872, Grendel wrote:Okay, so if you reasoning for Gamma!town today is that his play style isn't helping move a scum win-con. How is Penguin's laziness going to help his win-con as scum?
Low content posting will most likely result in Penguin's lynch if he keeps it up over time.
The trouble with your D1 Gamma case is that Gamma always plays in that manner. You're town reading him for reasons I find non-AI as far as Gamma goes.