Mini Normal #1838 - Game Over

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VOTE: Grendel

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Boring has nothing to say because they said it all in their day chat

You know it! Now stick to the plan, and we'll win this game like it ain't no thang.

@Boring You don't even have a witty one-liner to go with your vote... that's really... boring...

You say that like it's a bad thing.

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I expect more from the ultimate scum lord!

Give eagerSnake a break, he's doing his best.

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Nah Eager is lame, you're the one I want to see in action!

Dude, you're like the most adorable derp... You and I just played a game together, remember? It ended like 20 hours ago.

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I expect more from the ultimate scum lord!

I am out of the loop or maybe just missing an in joke. Mind explaining this?

Boring has only played scum games so far and if I remember correctly she won all of them. I was even present for the latter part of one.

No. I only won two.

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I usually try to form a good town-block and then consider the best scum-hunter of the block as the wise elder

I applaud the sentiment if it's genuine, but how do you intend to build a townblock in one day? You're either going to be NK'd for being conf. town, or you're going to survive the night, and anyone you'd want for your town block will have a healthy dose of distrust for you. I think you might have to table that plan for now.

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He's an eager snake.

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This seems overly aggressive.

Do you think my "over-aggressive"-ness is a sign of town, or scum? Explain your answer.

(700-750 words, APA style format)

pssh! APA format is for pussies. Make him do it in Chicago.

@Gamma, what's bold-telling? I've never seen that term, and I can't find it in the wiki.

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@Grendel, at your request.
1) What is your preferred alignment?
Town. It's the puzzle of the game that attracts me. Playing scum is just a chore that you perform to give town a fun challenge.
2) Are you often mislynched? If so, why is that?
I'm under 50/50. I've gotten better at reading. I've only completed town games offsite though, so I'm not sure that counts for much.
3) Can you describe your play style concisely in one sentence?
Nope. I've only been playing since June.
4) If you were the deciding vote at lylo with the slot above you, and the slot below you, which player would you lynch and why? (Ex: 1 would be deciding between 13, and 2. 2 would be deciding between 1 and 3. 3 would decide between 2 and 4.)
It would depend on what happens between now and LYLO.
5) How excited are you for this game?
Reasonably.

Well nn30 is probably town.

I don't like this. It seems in spirit with OMGUS. I don't think it's alignment-related, I just don't think it's effective scum-hunting. You shouldn't town read people for town-reading you.

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I don't think anyone has done anything that is towny or scummy yet but this is amusing to watch.

Amusing, disturbing, tomato, potato.

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Naked voting is Pro scum. ^

Why would an RVS vote accompanied by "baaa..." or "hello" be more defensible than a naked vote?

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Naked voting is Pro scum. ^

Why would an RVS vote accompanied by "baaa..." or "hello" be more defensible than a naked vote?

It isn't, unfortunately I only have one vote.

We've too many players who fall into your "unacceptable RVS vote" category for them all to be scum. How'd you come to the conclusion that this one in particular is scum?

Also, what do you think of Implosion sheeping you with what amounts to a naked vote?

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Since everyone else is playing...I don't want to be left out.

1.) Town. I'm always scumread, so being scum is hard.
2.) Never been mislynched. Come close several times, but never.
3.) Undefined.
4.) Below...for username reasons and whatnot.
5.) On a scale of Little Penguin to Emperor Penguin, about a Macaroni Penguin.

Actually, now that I think of it, I should correct my answer to #2. I was lumping all deaths together. I've been mislynched once (but I've only played 4.5 town games).

Also, your scale is bad, and you should feel bad. Macaroni penguin is the best penguin.

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We've too many players who fall into your "unacceptable RVS vote" category for them all to be scum. How'd you come to the conclusion that this one in particular is scum?

Also, what do you think of Implosion sheeping you with what amounts to a naked vote?

gut
Why, do you have a problem with my push?

I don't care about Implosion as long as he helps me lynch scum.

I'm just trying to figure out your motives. I don't care who's being pushed. I care about why. If it's just a gut read, carry on.

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Okay looking back at that no-claim thing mafia did it more it seems. I'm not quite sure what this means for Eager so I'll wait for Grendel's opinions on the matter.

This appears to be an insider-only train of thought. Are you planning to share with the rest of the class once you get an answer from Grendel?

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VOTE: Zoronos

Best vote atm I haven't liked any of his posts to put it in a simple answer.

This is a train that I can ride for a while. Have you ever worn a jacket so small that you can't button it up or move your arms properly? That's what he brings to mind.

VOTE: Zoronos

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VOTE: Zoronos

Best vote atm I haven't liked any of his posts to put it in a simple answer.

This is a train that I can ride for a while. Have you ever worn a jacket so small that you can't button it up or move your arms properly? That's what he brings to mind.

VOTE: Zoronos

Mind explaining this metaphor?

Sure. It's like nothing quite fits.

I'll give examples.
1. He said in post #162 "My gut doesn't like his post, but I think that's because a lot of it is talking about himself." But he can't stop talking about himself.
2. He jumped on Grendel for asking questions, and then says in post #97 "This is a decently analytical thought though for this point in the game. ++towniness." because Grendel soft-defended him.
3. Post #65 "Saying an ascetic claim is scummy is foolish; it is strictly non alignment determining. If you are town, you claim it to avoid wasting an NA. If you are scum, you claim it to avoid a cop hit." I'm uncomfortable with how comfortable he was with eagerSnake's [awful]decision.

It's awkward, and it makes me suspect that he's forcing himself to act or be a certain way (like a jacket that's too small).

p-edit: Gamma's weird. You get used to it.

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@Zoronos
Your reasoning is unsound, and it takes 2 seconds to realize it. Unless eagerSnake's just a vanilla town with an ascetic modifiers, he's blown a town PR for no good reason. He'll be dead before he can use it. We don't even need a conf. town Day 1, when his guess is as good as ours, and we outnumber scum more than we probably ever will. He should/could have just played the way any other PR plays: act town, and keep your head down to avoid a NK. That would have reduced the chances of wasted NAs, and given us something useful when we really needed it. Even if scum managed to get him mislynched Day whatever over it, that's fine. We'd see his flip, have whatever info he left behind, a good scum pool on his wagon, and he'd still be more useful then than he'll be now.

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S_s is also a good vote rn

Please explain. I'm town leaning him.

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Dammit Grendel!

I'm wary of Penguin too, but your reasoning sucks. Your questions were NAI, and the answers you got were NAI. Also, you failed to take personality differences into account, and that's a shame, considering how much effort you must have put into that whole thing.

However, I'm enjoying the irony of PP bucking your analysis when he's going after LUV for his. Not that I'm not fond of LUV right now, either.

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If anything you insiting that RQS isn't a valid means of catching scum sounds like scum annoyed that they got caught for the wrong reasons.

I'm sorry, but you can't scream confirmation bias much louder than this.

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However, I'm enjoying the irony of PP bucking your analysis when he's going after LUV for his. Not that I'm not fond of LUV right now, either.

So. Many. Pronouns.

I don't know how to respond since it could mean to entirely different things.

What I mean is this: You're scumreading LUV for the answers he gave to Grendel's questions. You're being scumread by Grendel for the answers you gave to the same questions. You're unhappy with Grendel's interpretation of your answers. While I sympathize with your frustration, I find the situation mildly humorous.

Further, I find both you and LUV worth some scrutiny, but that I'm dissatisfied with both your and Grendel's decisions to base scum reads off Grendel's "RQS".

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EBWOP

Further, I find both you and LUV worth some scrutiny, but that I'm dissatisfied with both your and Grendel's decisions to base scum reads off Grendel's "RQS".

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If anything you insiting that RQS isn't a valid means of catching scum sounds like scum annoyed that they got caught for the wrong reasons.

I'm sorry, but you can't scream confirmation bias much louder than this.

I have legitimately caught scum with RQS. I've legitimately identify'd town too.

I don't understand how people will treat gut, and tone like proper scum hunting methods, but will absolutely crap on RQS when is an excersie, that in my opinion, combines those things plus a decent degree of logic, and is an easy way to get a whole rosters worth of reads in sometimes just a few pages. Even if my reads were totally wrong I at the very least got to know a little more about who I'm playing with. I don't consider RQS to be a waste of time.

Utterly baffled by the general "lol no" response I'm getting this game.

it's a fun ice breaker, sure, and I think we can appreciate the effort you put in. I know part of my aversion lies in how weirdly you interpreted my answers. I can elaborate in a PM after the gave ends, if you'd like. Either way, there are very different, very plausible other explanations for people's responses that went unaddressed/unconsidered. So while you're free to form your reads however you want, it may not be helpful to the rest of us in our search.

Same goes for gut reads. You can't expect someone to follow another person's gut.

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He probably is. I'm the only person who's vocalized annoyance with the concept of a fake town block. I can do it again too. Only VI's and scum would be content with the idea of unconfirmed town being placed on a town block pedestal.

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@Boring, since you are around, what is you read on Eager atm, regarding his claim and stuff?

I'm pretty sure I've addressed this at length, but I can answer again. I think he's telling the truth, and I think that unless his only role modifier is ascetic, he made a mistake announcing it so quickly. Factor in his town block nonsense, and I have him as strong town with questionable judgement.

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Also boring: are you satisfied with my explanation of the thing between me and Grendel?

I guess. I mean, you explained it alright, I was just hoping there'd be more to it.

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Gamma, is it safe to say that your mutual scum-reading with implosion is centered around your differing reads on LUV, or am I over-simplifying. If I'm wrong, please correct me.

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Gamma is acting exactly like he did in our last game. I tunnelled him for it because he's easy to mislynch. I'm also doubting my scum read on Zoronos. He's just barrelled on without a single adjustment to his behavior. It's not something I'd expect from someone I'm scum-reading for being fake. They're each either cleverer at playing scum than I'm willing to entertain at the moment, or they're not scum.

UNVOTE:

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Gamma is acting exactly like he did in our last game.

Can you quantify exactly what you find similar?

Everything.

His opinions are hard to pin down, rendering him inscrutable. He's too brief with his explanations and doesn't seem to ever be quite on the same wavelength with the person he's talking to. This will become increasingly infuriating as the game goes on, which is why he's low-hanging fruit. Despite it all, he displays a few striking moments of clarity and insight.

I've never seen him play scum. I don't know if his scum game is just like this too. It's just that this is what his town game was like last time.

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Gamma is acting exactly like he did in our last game. I tunnelled him for it because he's easy to mislynch. I'm also doubting my scum read on Zoronos. He's just barrelled on without a single adjustment to his behavior. It's not something I'd expect from someone I'm scum-reading for being fake. They're each either cleverer at playing scum than I'm willing to entertain at the moment, or they're not scum.

UNVOTE:

Join me on Penguin please.

He nicely ignored my question.

I don't think your question was terribly interrogative, so that's not a super good reason. The vote on gamma makes no sense though.

@Gamma, I don't think you're too widely town read, so it's not like PP's going against the flow. It seems more like he's testing it.

VOTE: PenguinPower

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Well, at least Dierfire has given us something of substance, rather than just a prod dodge. If only Slandaar would see fit to do the same.

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Rainbow time!
Because I get bored going so long without a splash of color.

Shadow_step - Has an aggressive town persona. A hint of grandiosity. I haven't seen this behavior before with scum.
eagerSnake - He's got a most-likely-town claim. If he's still alive tomorrow, he'll probably be bumped way down because he's pretty useless
nn30 - Awkward, but in a townish way. Provides good observations.
Grendel - His line of speculation appears faulty, but not scummy. Probably town.
Gamma Emerald - Acting like he did in the last game, which was town.
Zoronos - Still feels off, but in consistent ways. I'm beginning to suspect part of it is personality. Doesn't seem survival-oriented.
MariaR - At least she admits that she's been coasting. No solid read yet.
DierFire - The vote-and-disappear thing, even during RVS, is pretty scummy. His one post was decent.
Lil Uzi Vert - I know people seem mostly over him now, but he's remains one of the scummier posters today. Might be personality.
Slandaar/Prism - Because prod dodging with no content. Sub-outs are more likely scum than town.
implosion - I get the impression that he's trying to blend in, and stay out of trouble. Reactive.
PenguinPower - Bad votes, reactions lack a feeling of authenticity, posts lacking substance, and dismissive in a way that I only see with scum.

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If we're developing a hive mind, I'm afraid for both of us.

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@Gamma - why on earth do you have implosion town and Shadow_step scum? o_O

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Wait wtf I forgot I changed my mind on implosion; make my read on him null-town
As for ShadowStep, I want him to not be as tunnely.

You think he's scummy for tunnelling, or you just wish he'd act differently? Town tunnels all the time.

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Hey everybody, I'm thrilled to join the game and can't wait to jump in.

That said, this is my busiest weekend of the year which makes it difficult to do so. I'll try to do a more comprehensive read on Sunday but for now I'm frozen in time at Page 12. In the meantime I'm going to VOTE: boring whose #196 left me wondering if she was trying to find inconsistencies or trying to find scum.

That's pretty thin, but it beats the hell out of eagerSnake's fear-vote. Welcome aboard!

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Grendel - His line of speculation appears faulty, but not scummy. Probably town.

But Boring, if you feel my logic is off base the why are you sharing my top scum read?

If I'm really off my game and I started the Penguin wagon wouldn't that give you pause?

Even blind acorns find nuts on occasion!

I didn't like your RQS analysis because it runs counter to my experience of people in general. I don't like your attempts to identify entire teams at once because it's incredibly speculative. But I'll be fair: all that matters is what works and what doesn't. If, at the end of this game you were right, then I'll gladly eat my words.

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Even blind acorns find nuts on occasion!

Sweet mango chutney, I wish I could say I worded it like that on purpose. I'm an old lady, and it's past my bed time. I'll see you crazy kids tomorrow.

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Anyone want to point out exactly what they dislike about my list? I know implosion seems to disagree with my opinion regarding PP. Feel free to argue for or against my scum and town leans.

I'll be less active until Wednesday or Thursday because real life, but I'll probably be able to pop in once a day, on my phone at least, to keep up and share thoughts.

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@Shadow_step - Are you scumreading eager, or was that just a statement of suspicion?
@Deirfire - I just read that whole post, and I can't tell if you're justifying your vote on PP, or moving away from it. Can you give us a thesis statement?
@Prism - I never considered that perspective on MariaR. Do you think she's likely scum, or are you just throwing it out there?

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The dichotomy between Boring and Maria here is interesting; Maria is hard to sort because she is content light (apparently purposefully), and Boring is hard to sort because some of her content makes me go "Yup, that's scummy def" and some is "Well, that is pretty darn reasonable".

Throw Grendel in there and lol

You suspensions of me actually strength my town read on you. The Scum!Eager I played with was totally okay with being a strong tr of mine. Your paranoia here makes me all the more sure you are town.

I mean, if you are scum you a mighty fine actor lol.

Does this seem uncomfortable to anyone else?

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We should definitely lynch Gamma. Not me.

I'm having a hard time understanding why people hopped off this wagon.

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I don't think Penguin is undeinably rocksolid town but comparing him to people like Implosion, boring, LUV, Gamma, Maria, or even Grendel he might as well be the Pope.

How on earth is PP less scummy than me? Do you have any decent reasons? Or is it just that I actually bothered to elaborate on my Zoro read like ten pages ago?

Either way, it's lovely to know that someone who apparently exists solely to swipe at low-hanging fruit is totally cool with you.

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The dichotomy between Boring and Maria here is interesting; Maria is hard to sort because she is content light (apparently purposefully), and Boring is hard to sort because some of her content makes me go "Yup, that's scummy def" and some is "Well, that is pretty darn reasonable".

Throw Grendel in there and lol

You suspensions of me actually strength my town read on you. The Scum!Eager I played with was totally okay with being a strong tr of mine. Your paranoia here makes me all the more sure you are town.

I mean, if you are scum you a mighty fine actor lol.

Does this seem uncomfortable to anyone else?

Why and to what extent?

I noticed how Eager wasn't content for me to scratch him behind the ears with a town read this game and thought it was townish. And decided to mention it while it was still on my mind.

It read to me like "greetings, fellow town-player. You are definitely town, and not scum. I am also not scum. You can see it clearly printed on my nametag. I will now go and do town things. Because I'm town."

I was open to the idea that I'm just being paranoid, which is why I opened the floor, rather than just sticking it into my notes.

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The dichotomy between Boring and Maria here is interesting; Maria is hard to sort because she is content light (apparently purposefully), and Boring is hard to sort because some of her content makes me go "Yup, that's scummy def" and some is "Well, that is pretty darn reasonable".

Throw Grendel in there and lol

You suspensions of me actually strength my town read on you. The Scum!Eager I played with was totally okay with being a strong tr of mine. Your paranoia here makes me all the more sure you are town.

I mean, if you are scum you a mighty fine actor lol.

Does this seem uncomfortable to anyone else?

Why and to what extent?

I noticed how Eager wasn't content for me to scratch him behind the ears with a town read this game and thought it was townish. And decided to mention it while it was still on my mind.

It read to me like "greetings, fellow town-player. You are definitely town, and not scum. I am also not scum. You can see it clearly printed on my nametag. I will now go and do town things. Because I'm town."

I was open to the idea that I'm just being paranoid, which is why I opened the floor, rather than just sticking it into my notes.

You're free to over analysis me as much as you want.

I do think its kind of funny that I just got finished saying how I town read Snake's paranoia, and suddenly you are acting paranoid of me too.

If the context wasn't so different, maybe. But remember, you were supposedly reading Shadow_step off meta. It's like you've already forgotten your excuse for the clumsy buddying....

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Of course I am, eager. I've miraculously drawn scum for the fourth game in a row to stroke your ego, and justify the fear vote you planned since the sign-up thread.

You don't even have to scum hunt. Just park a vote, make a shitty claim, and fake a hammer for lolz (because you got fuck-all info from it).

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Of course I am, eager. I've miraculously drawn scum for the fourth game in a row to stroke your ego, and justify the fear vote you planned since the sign-up thread.

You don't even have to scum hunt. Just park a vote, make a shitty claim, and fake a hammer for lolz (because you got fuck-all info from it).

Okay. This feels forced. And also out of left field.

It's not out of left field, you're just missing context. I'm irritated by his coasting, and I'm annoyed with town in general. I feel like too many people are tip-toeing, and there's no real scum hunting going on.

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This game just got easy .

Kidding lol

Hello eager, do you have any early reads?

Anyone else can also answer this.

Eager is probably a goon and would be doing most of the kills and hence might have the biggest chance of getting caught so he claimed to have ascetic.

I'm town ascetic.
First thing I did after reading Eager's claim was confirm with the mod that he sent me the right role PM.

VOTE: eagerSnake good enough for me.

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Lol. Why are you waiting until now to bring up that you're Ascetic?

Why aren't you considering the possibility of 2 Town having Ascetic?

Why are you willing to jump straight to the possibility of two town ascetics rather than challenging his claim?

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@eager - You're not the least bit incredulous? You went straight to bargaining without any fight. How is that not scummy?

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holy **** boring needs to eat rope rn

Feel free to elaobrate on this chainsaw.

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holy **** boring needs to eat rope rn

Feel free to elaobrate on this chainsaw.

Maybe if you ask nicely.

I'm not going to beg you to act pro-town.

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@Mod Do scum have day chat?

So you're trying for a derp-clear now?

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@Mod Do scum have day chat?

So you're trying for a derp-clear now?

WHAT THE ****
How do you get "Maria is going for a clear!" from that???

Did I ever say "I asked if scum have day chat i'm clear"

f off ty

Why ask the mod when you can just read the first page? Unless you're trying to announce that you can't possibly be scum, that is. The timing is pretty with SS threatening to look for buddies.

By the way, you don't get to pick and choose when players are going to address your in-game behaviors.

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With that, I'll bid you all goodnight.

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@eager - I'm not sure you understand what buddying means. Most of what you posted was criticism. Also, why do you keep repeating that I'm happy about the conflict? I've been around for very little of this little scum theater.

@town? - eager has been coasting, and the only thing in the way of my gut scumlean was the fact that he had an uncc'd claim. A cc from an obvious town player was more than enough reason to vote him. Either way, how can so many of you accept eager's piss-poor "town" performance without resistance? I mean, eager has bragged twice now about how shitty town is playing by not calling him out for his lazy vote. You're all just taking the insult with pride, it would appear. The only positive thing I can say about this development is my wagon. It decreases the likelihood that eagerSnake, MariaR and implosion are ALL scum. I'll have to try to knock at least one out of the running.

If scum want to chainsaw me up to L-1, that's fine, but don't let them hammer without warning. I'll try to be back again tomorrow to check on things.

p-edit - S_s's play and tone were very aggressive early on.

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Also, why do you keep repeating that I'm happy about the conflict? I've been around for very little of this little scum theater.

Where do you get "scum theater?" Who am I scum theatering with?

You're scum. You have at least one buddy (I was thinking MariaR at the time) spearheading/supporting this crazy chainsaw to try to get my lynched instead.

boring has experience on another site

Yes, i have some experience on Mafiauniverse, because the games here are so slow. But my first-ever game was here.

@eager - I'm not sure you understand what buddying means. Most of what you posted was criticism. Also, why do you keep repeating that I'm happy about the conflict? I've been around for very little of this little scum theater.

@town? - eager has been coasting, and the only thing in the way of my gut scumlean was the fact that he had an uncc'd claim. A cc from an obvious town player was more than enough reason to vote him. Either way, how can so many of you accept eager's piss-poor "town" performance without resistance? I mean, eager has bragged twice now about how shitty town is playing by not calling him out for his lazy vote. You're all just taking the insult with pride, it would appear. The only positive thing I can say about this development is my wagon. It decreases the likelihood that eagerSnake, MariaR and implosion are ALL scum. I'll have to try to knock at least one out of the running.

If scum want to chainsaw me up to L-1, that's fine, but don't let them hammer without warning. I'll try to be back again tomorrow to check on things.

p-edit - S_s's play and tone were very aggressive early on.

I find the first bolded so, so hard to believe. You had a scumlean on him and the thing holding you back from that was an uncced ascetic claim. When (1) tons of people have been explaining why it makes sense for him to claim it as a mafia ascetic (so the claim itself isn't a strong reason to townread him). And more importantly (2), being an uncced ascetic isn't a particularly townish thing... like, I can understand this if he were an uncced cop or doctor or tracker or generally an uncced power role, because making a power role claim puts you in the limelight and makes you suspicious if you don't die the next night. But I find it hard to believe that this was the only thing holding you back from scumreading him or more specifically that it would hold you back from scumreading him.

If you bothered to open an ISO, you'd see that I've been pretty clear about my feelings regarding eager's claim. That being, he was an uncc'd town claim, which left unchallenged, left him as a prime night kill target (because of the probably confirmed town status). As I also stated several times, if he lived to tomorrow, I'd re-evaluate. So for Day 1, uncc'd regardless of how untown he seemed, I didn't feel like I had much choice but to accept him as confirmed town.

Second bolded part feels super contrived. Calling an L-2 wagon on herself positive as if to shout "hey, i don't really care if i'm lynched bc i'm not scum" from the rooftops with no regard to how harmful it would be if we lynch her and not eagerSnake in the event that she's town and he's scum (which, to be clear, I do not believe but she does). Giving the positive that you've eliminated one out of 200+ possible scumteams further evidences that she doesn't actually feel like the wagon on her is a good thing, she's just BSing to try to look like town-who-doesn't-care-if-they're-wagoned. If she were town she would be concerned about the wagon on her competing with the wagon on eagerSnake, or if she was genuinely glad about it would have more to say about it than "these three people aren't all scum" which is so likely to be true a priori as to have evidence in favor of it be utterly meaningless (reducing an 0.5% chance to an 0.1% chance is not meaningful, and that would require insanely strong evidence to do). We'll see what she has to say when she gives more analysis on it.

Posting from work because I really needed to get this off my mind while it's fresh. Will have more to say on the es-ss fiasco later. But it's gonna be more of what you've already heard.

I very much care if I'm wagoned. You may have missed it, but I said "the only good thing"... as a rule, when someone says "only", they mean just the one.

Also calling it 'scum theater' implies that there is 2 scum involved, which in this scenario would mean S_S and I are performing scum theater. Basically setting herself up to lynch him tomorrow when I flip

Beautiful example of shitty play. Seriously, can you say "you'll all be sorry when I'm gone" any more ways before you're forced to actually participate?

Shadow_step - Has an aggressive town persona. A hint of grandiosity. I haven't seen this behavior before with scum.
eagerSnake - He's got a most-likely-town claim. If he's still alive tomorrow, he'll probably be bumped way down because he's pretty useless

These were Boring's top two town reads at one point. She flipped on her second top town read as soon as her first CC'ed him on a modifier, without further investigation. I find that questionable.
I am further surprised that not a single person brought up that she was willing to trash her town reads that quickly. But w/e.

Anyway, I want to hear what Boring has to say once she comes back; my gut wants her to be scum (hello conf-bias) but I can't justify just throwing down the hammer without giving her a chance to say her piece.

I question whether you read what you quoted. I said of eagerSnake, "He's got a most-likely-town claim. If he's still alive tomorrow, he'll probably be bumped way down because he's pretty useless". What about that makes it so unbelievable that I'd not flip on him when my top town read cc'd him? I don't get why your gut would want me to be scum except that I was scum-reading you before.

--

I'm frankly baffled by my wagon, or that it's lasted this long. I'd congratulate scum, but I don't think they've earned it. There's a weird social dynamic in this game that I can't seem to wrap my head around. How many more times, for example, is Zoro going to try to probe eager for a reason to have voted me in the first place without actually questioning his alignment?

I think we've had quite enough role claims for Day 1, but suffice it to say that I find it very, very unlikely that we have two ascetics. That is, unless the mod is a sadist. I also think it would be absolutely pointless for there to be a mafia ascetic. That is, unless things are far more complex than they appear from my point of view.

[boring]

I'll be back in a few hours.

[boring]

Boring I'd like your input on what I said about Eager and Maria(now including Implosion!) argued(the duplicate town roles thing).

I addressed this at the end of post #1165.

@boring
Anyway, here's my take on your play so far:
You've been in the middle of two trains - PP and Eager. Never the head of either - the player leading the charge for the lynch. While you were on PP, you didn't talk about him much at all or advocate for that train to move forwards. You mostly seemed to be talking to Grendel. (I kind of liked your evaluation of Grendel's conciliatory post to Gamma, actually 623).
However that suspicion also never seemed to get pushed based the suspicion phase.

At the time of the CC, you had Eager as your number 2 town read, after SS at number one. That suggests, to me, that you didn't have a lot of skepticism about his claim. Furthermore, I find "He survived the night, he must be scum" to be a really awful way to evaluate PR's (since it depends on the playstyle of the scum team on whether they are risk averse or not, which is hidden information). It makes it really easy for scum to try to lynch PR's by building up mistrust.

So, when you immediately flipped on him as soon as the CC happens, that seems scummy to me. You didn't take the time to re-evaluate the read or look for other indications on whether he was scummy. Just 'Oh counterclaim yup top scum' and a vote. There wasn't evidence of skepticism or evaluation. If someone counterclaims one of my top town reads, I am always going to try and think carefully about why my town read might have been wrong, or if something else is afoot.

So, I don't think you've done a lot of active scum hunting, haven't been an evangelist for the trains you've been on, and I question your sudden certainty on Eager-scum. Those things add up to my gut thinking you're playing a happy coincidence of two town having the same role modifier, and you get a free mislynch.
However, the logical case hasn't caught up to my gut and I am wary of just interpreting events into conf-bias land. So I'm not entirely convinced that you're the villain quite yet - at least not until we've had a chance to chat a bit more.

My read on you was a shot in the dark, based off the oddness I picked up. I've gone back through the thread to re-read since then, and I noticed you mentioning your friend. Something I missed my first time around, which would easily exacerbate the disconnect I was picking up at first. As your posts normalized, and I could see that you weren't adjusting your behavior to suit my scumread, I lost interest in your wagon. Even at the time of my vote, I'd have been more suspicious of a flash wagon than your behavior.

Then, I noticed PP being reactive, dismissive, and disingenuous, so I hopped onto his wagon with S_s. I did argue when people got off his wagon:

We should definitely lynch Gamma. Not me.

I'm having a hard time understanding why people hopped off this wagon.

I don't think Penguin is undeinably rocksolid town but comparing him to people like Implosion, boring, LUV, Gamma, Maria, or even Grendel he might as well be the Pope.

How on earth is PP less scummy than me? Do you have any decent reasons? Or is it just that I actually bothered to elaborate on my Zoro read like ten pages ago?

Either way, it's lovely to know that someone who apparently exists solely to swipe at low-hanging fruit is totally cool with you.

And then I admit that I was distracted by Grendel, with what I thought might have been a scum-slip (certainly worth attention in my mind).

Then the CC happened and I was more than willing to vote eager, who would have been a scum lean at the very least had he not been sitting on an uncc'd claim to a conf.town position.

If I haven't played perfect town, I apologize. But to be perfectly honest here, I don't have very much town play time under my belt. Especially not on this site with this site's meta. It's easier to just be what town wants than to actually try to solve the game not knowing who's who. Let alone dealing with any further complications.

Shadow_step - Has an aggressive town persona. A hint of grandiosity. I haven't seen this behavior before with scum.

@Boring - please explain this read on SS.

Okay, well, here's practically his whole ISO before my read list.

Spoiler:

VOTE: LUV

This is a scum PR we need to get riD of ASAP.

This game just got easy .

Kidding lol

Hello eager, do you have any early reads?

Anyone else can also answer this.

@Boring You don't even have a witty one-liner to go with your vote... that's really... boring...

You say that like it's a bad thing.

I like it when people make Beowulf jokes. Do you not like people referencing your name in jokes?

QUESTIONS FOR EVERYBODY

1) What is your preferred alignment?

2) Are you often mislynched? If so, why is that?

3) Can you describe your play style concisely in one sentence?

4) If you were the deciding vote at lylo with the slot above you, and the slot below you, which player would you lynch and why? (Ex: 1 would be deciding between 13, and 2. 2 would be deciding between 1 and 3. 3 would decide between 2 and 4.)

5) How excited are you for this game?

Nah Eager is lame, you're the one I want to see in action!

What am I? Chopped liver?

1. Mafia, cause I love the wifom. But I probably play better as town.

2. I'm not often mislynched. Occasionally might be a better word.

3. I'm a good analyser and gut reader. My reads are generally good but I have a hard time convincing town that X is scum[Hint-that person is actually scum](Ask Maria).

4. Probably the one below me.

5. 7/10

Grendel, you mind answering your own questions?

Also I think LUV is scum and everyone should be voting there.

Naked voting is Pro scum. ^

Naked voting is Pro scum. ^

Why would an RVS vote accompanied by "baaa..." or "hello" be more defensible than a naked vote?

It isn't, unfortunately I only have one vote.

2.) Never been mislynched. Come close several times, but never.

Seriously?

We've too many players who fall into your "unacceptable RVS vote" category for them all to be scum. How'd you come to the conclusion that this one in particular is scum?

Also, what do you think of Implosion sheeping you with what amounts to a naked vote?

gut
Why, do you have a problem with my push?

I don't care about Implosion as long as he helps me lynch scum.

Cool, you wanna answer my question?

Looks like LUV has been advised to play dumb and play newb like.
Needs death.

How is it negative? Doesn't it make you immune to nightkills?

No: Ascetic

So, do you believe eagersnake?
What is your current read on him?

Actually I wouldn't mind if everyone answers this ^

I personally think Eager could have waited a bit and tried ti develop some reads before outing that he is ascetic. More info to be gained from reactions after that.

Shadowstep, sorry. My mistake.

What is your opinion on Grendel, since it sounds like you know him better?

I've only played with PP, eager and Maria before. So I'm not familiar with Grendel.
From my exp, scum are more awkward during RVS, and RQS is more or less NAI.
I'm currently leaning null town on him.

So, do you believe eagersnake?

Have no reason not to at this point. How about you?

What is your current read on him?

Null. Yours?

This is a very safe stance
How can you believe him and not town read him even if slightly ?

Like mafia ascetic is very strong modifier for mafia, unless you believe that town would have those many PRs to counter that.
Hence you null read him. But I doubt you would have thought that much.

He does stuff after he's prompted to do it.
My read hasn't changed on him.

@Dier, I'm waiting for those walls man.

@mod, can we have a replacement for Slandaar if he is town and a modkill if he is mafia? K thanks

Good this should be an easy game. I have a couple of town reads too.
Need to hear more from Slandaar/Maria/Diet to sort them out.

There's a scum who is intent on breaching the town block /note

Elaborate.

@Boring, since you are around, what is you read on Eager atm, regarding his claim and stuff?

@Boring, since you are around, what is you read on Eager atm, regarding his claim and stuff?

Maria, same question.

Gamma I really think your Zoronos vote is terrible. What is your case against him?
I think there are better places to put your vote, like PP.

@Zoro, let's wagon Penguin.
There seems to be more potential in this.

VOTE: PP

Gamma is acting exactly like he did in our last game. I tunnelled him for it because he's easy to mislynch. I'm also doubting my scum read on Zoronos. He's just barrelled on without a single adjustment to his behavior. It's not something I'd expect from someone I'm scum-reading for being fake. They're each either cleverer at playing scum than I'm willing to entertain at the moment, or they're not scum.

UNVOTE:

Join me on Penguin please.

He nicely ignored my question.

Yeah implosion is town.

So:

Won't read LUV = scum > Will read LUV later = leantown > Still hasn't read/posted about, but post stuff about PP = town.

Dude...seriously.

I'm actually done with LUV for now.

VOTE: Gamma

The fact that so many people townread me and yet he doesn't makes him Town.

This is a fallacy, scum will try to get people who are town read by the majority --> lynched
Especially PP's reply to your comment is terrible. He scum reads you and is okay with you town reading him. He doesn't accuse you or buddying.

Flail scum flail

Naked voting is Pro scum. ^

VOTE: Pp

Dude...

Why would it be directed to you ? Are you scum?

Like nn30 is ob town after that. Unless he is a very good scum player. I'll have to check his games to make sure.

@nn I was already voting PP and I had given reasons to vote him.

I would call Maria prob town but she is so good at faking town reactions I'm not gonna town read her for this.

N30 has been obv town since the start of this.

The fact gamma isn't obv town when I've obv town read him before is worrying

the LUV townreads make me laugh.

I'm gonna look more into a few players that don't need names but with the amount of people I am slowly going like "you can be town" these players are....

If penguin is scum, LUV is town.
I do agree on that town reading LUV is kinda dumb.

@Eager what did you learn from that hammer?
What are you current reads?
Even a readlist with one line explanations would be fine.

@eager stop ignoring my questions.

If it needs further explanation, I can summarize:
He's been unflinching in pursuing his scum reads, and doesn't hesitate to push forward with them. He isn't exactly being polite about it either. He doesn't seem to care about gaining buddies, being likeable, or developing sympathy [aggressive town persona]. He also very clearly believes that his own reads and opinions are right, and when compared to others, others must be wrong [hint of grandiosity].

[boring]

Sorry about my spacing in that post.

[boring]

From what I see, what you saw in Shadow was powertown play.
That's totally something scum never does. /s

I've never seen it like that. Not without softening the edges to avoid animosity and OMGUS.

[boring]

Anyone on eagers wagon who can answer this:

Why does scum eager claim day 1 when he'd be the most powerful maf role?

Because it would provide a free pass with town investigators for at least a little while. Long enough to pick off doubters.

p-edit: @Zoro. I gave you what I have to give. I can't say where I was going next with my train of thought on PP because as I said, I was distracted by Grendel. I guess you're just going to have to be dissatisfied. Did you have any other questions that I can help you with, or is that the extent of your questioning?

[boring]

I was distracted by Grendel.

You were in awe of my stunning magnificence weren't you?

I'm a sucker for purple.

[boring]

@eagerSnake, I appreciate that you're finally making some kind of effort, but I'm missing the point. Can you summarize at all?

[boring]

From before the CC:

Boring was doing little / no scum hunting. She joined the Zoronos wagon (3rd there). Aside from questioning his logic once or twice, she loses interest in Zoronos fairly quickly. She joins the Penguin wagon (also 3rd) and aside from her rainbow read list (putting Penguin as her top scum read) she spends the next 15 posts without engaging with Penguin again.

After the CC:

She votes Eager with little to no thought about the CC (literal minutes between SS announcing and her voting Eager). She drops Eager (previously a 2nd to top town read) to her biggest scum read with little to no explanation, thought, consideration... nada. This feels very opportunistic.

Also, this:

@town? - eager has been coasting, and the only thing in the way of my gut scumlean was the fact that he had an uncc'd claim. A cc from an obvious town player was more than enough reason to vote him.

She is specifically referring to the period of time before the Shadow CC that she had a scumlean on him. This directly contradicts her read list from that period of time (where snake was her second to top town read).

...
If you bothered to open an ISO, you'd see that I've been pretty clear about my feelings regarding eager's claim. That being, he was an uncc'd town claim, which left unchallenged, left him as a prime night kill target (because of the probably confirmed town status). As I also stated several times, if he lived to tomorrow, I'd re-evaluate. So for Day 1, uncc'd regardless of how untown he seemed, I didn't feel like I had much choice but to accept him as confirmed town.
...

Further contradiction. He's probably confirmed town without a counter claim - yet in 1037 (when there was still no CC) she has a scumlean on him.

Fishy. Fishy fishy.



I had a slight scum read on Boring before the CC. The most quantifiable thing is that her read list felt hinky to me (like she was posting it instead of actually scum hunting). There was also a gut feeling, which is more difficult to quantify.

Snake also pointed out that he parked his vote on Boring the entire day - and nobody nibbled - meaning 0 scum tried to hop onto the wagon and test the waters (implying that Boring herself is scum, causing the lack of interest in her wagon). I like this logic a lot.

Fin.

So, you haven't been paying attention like, at all? Hopefully when this trip is over, I'll have time to go through and show you point-for-point where you've clearly glossed, ignored, and misrepped. I realize this isn't the first time you've gotten totally confused in this game, but geez.

It's like you're pretending to be Zoro, except Zoro actually brought up some valid concerns (unfortunately for me).

Anyway, my request stands. Please wait for me to come back and post if y'all get to the point of intent to hammer on me. Or just lynch eagerSnake. Either one works.

[boring]

gotten totally confused

That was supposed to be in quotes. "gotten totally confused"

[boring]

@town? - eager has been coasting, and the only thing in the way of my gut scumlean was the fact that he had an uncc'd claim. A cc from an obvious town player was more than enough reason to vote him.

She is specifically referring to the period of time before the Shadow CC that she had a scumlean on him. This directly contradicts her read list from that period of time (where snake was her second to top town read).

...
If you bothered to open an ISO, you'd see that I've been pretty clear about my feelings regarding eager's claim. That being, he was an uncc'd town claim, which left unchallenged, left him as a prime night kill target (because of the probably confirmed town status). As I also stated several times, if he lived to tomorrow, I'd re-evaluate. So for Day 1, uncc'd regardless of how untown he seemed, I didn't feel like I had much choice but to accept him as confirmed town.
...

Further contradiction. He's probably confirmed town without a counter claim - yet in 1037 (when there was still no CC) she has a scumlean on him.

Fishy. Fishy fishy.

So you highlighted my explanation and called it a contradiction? Are you talking about my conflict with his read, which I was open about? That's fishy? That I can see a slot as mechanically town but still believe they're behaving questionably? If that's the case, then your reasoning is atrocious. Or you're intentionally taking something transparent and are pretending it was something subversive.

What you're calling out as "fishy" is a big part of my scum-hunting process. I throw out ideas and voice the concerns I have with players so that I can interact with others in the game to solve the issue. It's brainstorming, and anyone remotely Ne-heavy (for lack of a better summary) does this as naturally as breathing. The fact that no one cared to take part in that conversation, is just another element of my frustration with town.

Snake also pointed out that he parked his vote on Boring the entire day - and nobody nibbled - meaning 0 scum tried to hop onto the wagon and test the waters (implying that Boring herself is scum, causing the lack of interest in her wagon). I like this logic a lot.

Fin.

You spent half a page making random arguments without even realizing that eager had his vote on me. He actually had to "explain" it to you. At the time, I figured you were just absent-minded. Now, I'm not so sure. It certainly set you up to accept his "reasoning", which he didn't even sound super enthused by:

Mainly wanted to see if anyone would react to my obviously parked vote or not
.. no one really did

Wish I could give you more than the fact I've been parked on boring all game and scum haven't even taken a nibble at it, so that also makes it more likely boring is scum

There were a lot of RVS's that no one nibbled on, which is what his vote was when it was cast. The fact that no one even bothered to question it, or supposedly even notice it (in your case) as the day progressed, tells me that there's some gurd-awful town and ("town") play going on.

I had a slight scum read on Boring before the CC. The most quantifiable thing is that her read list felt hinky to me (like she was posting it instead of actually scum hunting). There was also a gut feeling, which is more difficult to quantify.

I'm okay with gut feelings when you admit they're gut feelings. But don't take a gut feeling, turn it into a wonky-ass tunnel, and pretend you're scum-hunting. If you are town, which, unfortunately remains relatively likely, it looks to me like you're picking out what you want to believe is scummy, and ignoring the rest.

So, you haven't been paying attention like, at all? Hopefully when this trip is over, I'll have time to go through and show you point-for-point where you've clearly glossed, ignored, and misrepped. I realize this isn't the first time you've gotten totally confused in this game, but geez.

It's like you're pretending to be Zoro, except Zoro actually brought up some valid concerns (unfortunately for me).

Anyway, my request stands. Please wait for me to come back and post if y'all get to the point of intent to hammer on me. Or just lynch eagerSnake. Either one works.

Well that's one way to deflect.

I know, dude. It's almost like I'm on, like, V/LA or whatever. Such deduction very wow.

[boring]

So I never really voted for this reason, but I should address it anyways I feel.
Boring has a point about finding someone's play scummy even though they are likely town. There have been point where I've said "dude that's scummy" to people I townread.

I've forgotten. Why are you voting me, again?

[boring]

So I never really voted for this reason, but I should address it anyways I feel.
Boring has a point about finding someone's play scummy even though they are likely town. There have been point where I've said "dude that's scummy" to people I townread.

I've forgotten. Why are you voting me, again?

Because your read on Shadow is faulty and I don't like your turnaround on Eager.
Basically everyone else's reason.

So, because you disagree with my read on Shadow and you don't think I should readily believe him over eager?

[boring]

@Boring - still not buying it.

If you were conflicted about your read on Eager, why the hell was he your second to top town read?

Because he was, until the CC, mechanically town. I would have put him as #1, but I couldn't bring myself to do it.

Anyway, if your case is reduced to disliking the order in which I arranged my town, null, and scum reads in my pretty, pretty rainbow, then that's your prerogative.

Who's your second highest read? Who will you pursue when/if eager flips red? What about if he flips green? Why'd you switch from SS to me? Do you believe he's town, now? What game set up do you think could possibly support two town ascetics? What do you think about Gamma's mind change? How about eager? Are you really sure he's town? What re you willing to commit to print at this point?

Anyone can feel free to answer any of these questions, by the way.

[boring]

@Boring - You didn't answer the question I posed last night. The short version was "Who is your best non-Eager scum read, if you want you can assume Eager is scum for the sake of this exercise."

Hm I see your point but I don't see any other better lynches then LUV and that clearly isn't happening

I would like to lynch eager today, but if it's absolutely not going to happen, I'd be willing to settle for LUV. He's the most probable scum when I look outside the CC-related wagons. By that, I mean it seems like regardless of eager's flip, LUV could be scum. I admit that part of my reasoning is that he keeps trying to push S_s, which is making zero sense to me. That, and his eagerness to accept bizarre theories just to keep the S_s suspicions going.

[boring]

What about nolynch?

So, rather than lynching scum (or at the very least learning from a town flip), you're suggesting we give them a free night kill, and start this mess up again tomorrow? We're better off lynching today. Even if it turns out to be me (though I'd hardly call that "plan A").

[boring]

But yeah I think you're scum even more after that last post

VOTE: boring

I only recently learned this myself. I'm going to assume you don't know it (though I plan to read through your old games for no lynch discussions now).

No lynches in games with odd numbers of people give an advantage to scum. Assuming lynches don't hit scum for the rest of the game we'll get to LYLO with one less total lynch attempt than if we had just lynched on day one.

Games with even numbers of people don't have this problem. The impact of a no lynch with an even numbered game does not "steal" a lynch from town.

Precisely.

[boring]

@Boring - You didn't answer the question I posed last night. The short version was "Who is your best non-Eager scum read, if you want you can assume Eager is scum for the sake of this exercise."

Hm I see your point but I don't see any other better lynches then LUV and that clearly isn't happening

I would like to lynch eager today, but if it's absolutely not going to happen, I'd be willing to settle for LUV. He's the most probable scum when I look outside the CC-related wagons. By that, I mean it seems like regardless of eager's flip, LUV could be scum. I admit that part of my reasoning is that he keeps trying to push S_s, which is making zero sense to me. That, and his eagerness to accept bizarre theories just to keep the S_s suspicions going.

This is kinda reasonable...
Talk to me some more about his contributions. I am going to ignore last night's "wtf is this" bullshit-a-thon for this purpose. Those posts were bad and dumb we both agree, talk to me about his posts from before then.

Also, which alignment do you think is more likely to go off on crazy conspiracy theories, town or scum?

I think LUV has been lurky, beetlegeuse-ish, and unoriginal throughout the game. It's really easy to float to day 1 or day 2 in order to give your teammates something to bus, and that matches his behavior. When he was getting heat, he basically disappeared until people moved onto someone else.

As far as who is more likely to come up with (and follow) crazy theories, I think it's pretty individual. Some people have wild imaginations and are prone to conspiracy. Some people aren't. I can see such a person coming up with something crazy as town or scum (perhaps more likely as town, but how would they know it's crazy as scum if they think it's perfectly sane when they're town). I think scum (or insanely conf.biased town) is more likely to pretend to buy into someone else's crazy theory hoping it'll stick.

On the other hand, I hate to beat a dead horse of almost-everything-boring-says-sounds-scummy but I really dislike boring's reaction... again.

So, rather than lynching scum (or at the very least learning from a town flip), you're suggesting we give them a free night kill, and start this mess up again tomorrow? We're better off lynching today. Even if it turns out to be me (though I'd hardly call that "plan A").

This is such an incredibly tepid response for someone who has been pushing eager so consistently since shadow claimed. Compare penguin's reaction, and Zoronos's reaction, and even nn who remarks that it's worth looking at his old games based on this. boring's reaction just reeks of scum who doesn't know how people are going to react and wants to test the waters before committing to saying something like "oh my god, only scum would possibly suggest a no lynch, can we please lynch him already." Which I would expect from town-boring here (obviously not in those words but etc).

That paragraph from boring does not read like town talking to their top scumread. It does not read like town with a strong investment in lynching the person they are talking to. I could buy it as town talking to someone that they're trying to make up their mind on. But I can't buy it as town talking to their top scumread. It just sounds like detached, rehearsed advice.

So... Your problem is that I'm not throwing a temper-tantrum right now? I don't know about you, but I can only fire all thrusters for so long.

It's been days, and eager isn't lynched yet. I've not had a whole lot of time for this game, but unless I'm mistaken, this CC situation has been analyzed, in depth. I'm not the only person on his wagon, why does its push rest entirely on my shoulders?

Why should I have to use your preferred wording to make my point about his awful no-lynch idea? I made it pretty clear I found his idea scummy and that any lynch was preferable to none.

It's more than a little irritating, by the way, that you give a whole paragraph on how you do you. Apparently, you don't develop strong reads day 1 (which is generally viewed as scummy), and then segue into how my approach to in-game conversation is too civil, and therefore scum.

There are more than one scum in the game, and we don't have to stand still while we're waiting for the undecided to sift through the very ample material and decide.

But don't worry. Next time eager posts, I'm sure it'll be yet another scummy line. If I'm around, I'll be sure to maintain sub-optimal wording.

[boring]

@nn30, confirmed town and PRs are primary NK targets for obvious reasons. Since S_s is conf. town, he's on the chopping block.

[boring]

As far as who is more likely to come up with (and follow) crazy theories, I think it's pretty individual. Some people have wild imaginations and are prone to conspiracy. Some people aren't. I can see such a person coming up with something crazy as town or scum (perhaps more likely as town, but how would they know it's crazy as scum if they think it's perfectly sane when they're town). I think scum (or insanely conf.biased town) is more likely to pretend to buy into someone else's crazy theory hoping it'll stick.

What I get from this is you scumread LUV for following my moon logic?

It's not the source of my read, it's just another tile in the mosaic.

[boring]

@boring
Of which players are you suspicious now?

I'm still suspicious of LUV. My read on him was independent of the wagons yesterday. The rest, I'm trying to piece together.

@Shadow - Why implosion, exactly? I'm not sure about him at the moment. Obviously, his tunnel yesterday was really skewed, and he's never been high on my read list, but I don't know why he'd kill MariaR, when she'd gladly hop on my wagon. That seems counter-productive. Unless scum!implosion was really banking on her NK convincing the "swing votes".

@Prism - You were after implosion yesterday. His tunnel timing me seems less than a coincidence, though I don't recall you bringing it up (I could have missed it). Did you just give up on him for the time being, or did your read change?

@nn30 - What is your current read on Shadow?

[boring]

Don't have a lot of time today but here's my current scum suspicions / thoughts:
Boring, PenguinPower, Implosion, Dierfire.

I can understand being wary of me, PP, and implosion, but why Dierfire? He's been pretty darned towny since he started contributing.

[boring]

Town doesn't react the way he did to my claim. I think the site meta and all was BS.
It was implied knowledge. He knew both of us were town.

Can you elaborate for the lazy among us?

[boring]

Town doesn't react the way he did to my claim. I think the site meta and all was BS.
It was implied knowledge. He knew both of us were town.

Town doesn't react the way he did to my claim. I think the site meta and all was BS.It was implied knowledge. He knew both of us were town.

Except he was town, ergo town does react the way he did to your claim. You can't just claim that which is provably true isn't true.
If you *think* town doesn't react that way, your impression of how town plays is wrong and you're conflating scum reaction with NAI reaction.

Wait. who are you talking about?

[boring]

@Prism - You were after implosion yesterday. His tunnel timing me seems less than a coincidence,

I'm curious what you mean by this; it seems like it could mean pretty much anything. My best guess is that you mean to say that I brought up a wagon on you as a counterwagon to eagerSnake? And it sounds like you're trying to imply that that was a scummy thing to do? Which I find deeply confusing. So I'd like some clarification.

I'd also like some clarification on how you (seemingly, I may be misinterpreting things here) are simultaneously criticizing me for tunneling you on d1 and for not having strong reads on d1.

I was noting the sequence of events. Prism tunnels you, then you tunnel me. To expand, it's a good, risk-free distraction because there was already a wagon on me. It takes you from a defensive position to an offensive one. If you're scum, it's exactly the right move to keep you under the radar.

Regarding the issue wit reads, the criticism you noted wasn't all that confusing. You were criticized for not having reads (not by me). You responded by explaining that you don't have reads day 1, that it's just how you operate, and then proceeded to tunnel me (ironically, for something that's clearly personality based). It's the timing that I find fishy, not the action itself. Everyone who participates, and takes risks, gets tunneled at some point. Your tunnel in particular seemed artificial and "safe".

Boring - Her posting was mostly defensive, we went over this in detail yesterday about why he read flipped. She didn't seem to do any work to suss out which of Eager and SS were the correct lynch, she just followed her top read SS to turn on her second to top read. I was in the middle of inquisiting this a bit when the hammer came down, but there we are.

This was largely due to time constraints. I only had about 30 minutes a day to play, so I had to focus on avoiding my mislynch in abstentia (also, I was pretty confident that eager was scum). I'm really hoping that my time will open up now so I can better immerse in the game.

[boring]

I think gamma is scum because he was believing any vague stupid theories and voting people for shallow reasons without even thinking about it.

Gamma does this as town. I can't rule out the possibility that he plays the same as town and as scum. All I have to go on is his town game, and this looks just like his town game.

My first newbie game had mostly experienced players by Day 2, and one thing they effectively drilled into my head is that actions are NAI. Motives are all that matters. That's probably why the more experienced players seem to ignore the traditional "tell" lists and VCA.

There's no scum motivation for Gamma to hop around, apply moon logic, weave between his own path and arguments he likes in thread. Especially not with scum daytalk. Either he'd have been instructed to knock it off, or his buddies would be gearing up to bus him for town cred.

[boring]

Why Dierfire? To me, he's trying really hard to sort out who he feels is suspicious and none of the cases he presented so far have read like scum trying to push a mislynch.

You realize I had just asked that, right?

Wait, what? I didn't read you as town there. I was saying you're terrible because the case you had on Eager was terrible. As for considering town possibly lying, I had two reasons for town reading Snake, one was the time and the way he claimed and the other was I thought he was hiding the fact he had an actually useful PR and was intentionally acting the way he was so scum won't have a reason to kill him at night.

So does this mean that Shadow is your top scum read at this point?

[boring]

for something that's clearly personality based.

Can you point out where / what this was?

Since by definition something personality-based is NAI, seeing where someone is casing off NAI behavior is instructive.

This is the example with implosion:

Spoiler:

On the other hand, I hate to beat a dead horse of almost-everything-boring-says-sounds-scummy but I really dislike boring's reaction... again.

So, rather than lynching scum (or at the very least learning from a town flip), you're suggesting we give them a free night kill, and start this mess up again tomorrow? We're better off lynching today. Even if it turns out to be me (though I'd hardly call that "plan A").

This is such an incredibly tepid response for someone who has been pushing eager so consistently since shadow claimed. Compare penguin's reaction, and Zoronos's reaction, and even nn who remarks that it's worth looking at his old games based on this. boring's reaction just reeks of scum who doesn't know how people are going to react and wants to test the waters before committing to saying something like "oh my god, only scum would possibly suggest a no lynch, can we please lynch him already." Which I would expect from town-boring here (obviously not in those words but etc).

That paragraph from boring does not read like town talking to their top scumread. It does not read like town with a strong investment in lynching the person they are talking to. I could buy it as town talking to someone that they're trying to make up their mind on. But I can't buy it as town talking to their top scumread. It just sounds like detached, rehearsed advice.

So... Your problem is that I'm not throwing a temper-tantrum right now? I don't know about you, but I can only fire all thrusters for so long.

It's been days, and eager isn't lynched yet. I've not had a whole lot of time for this game, but unless I'm mistaken, this CC situation has been analyzed, in depth. I'm not the only person on his wagon, why does its push rest entirely on my shoulders?

Why should I have to use your preferred wording to make my point about his awful no-lynch idea? I made it pretty clear I found his idea scummy and that any lynch was preferable to none.

It's more than a little irritating, by the way, that you give a whole paragraph on how you do you. Apparently, you don't develop strong reads day 1 (which is generally viewed as scummy), and then segue into how my approach to in-game conversation is too civil, and therefore scum.

There are more than one scum in the game, and we don't have to stand still while we're waiting for the undecided to sift through the very ample material and decide.

But don't worry. Next time eager posts, I'm sure it'll be yet another scummy line. If I'm around, I'll be sure to maintain sub-optimal wording.

Here's another, involving nn30:

Spoiler:

@town? - eager has been coasting, and the only thing in the way of my gut scumlean was the fact that he had an uncc'd claim. A cc from an obvious town player was more than enough reason to vote him.

She is specifically referring to the period of time before the Shadow CC that she had a scumlean on him. This directly contradicts her read list from that period of time (where snake was her second to top town read).

...
If you bothered to open an ISO, you'd see that I've been pretty clear about my feelings regarding eager's claim. That being, he was an uncc'd town claim, which left unchallenged, left him as a prime night kill target (because of the probably confirmed town status). As I also stated several times, if he lived to tomorrow, I'd re-evaluate. So for Day 1, uncc'd regardless of how untown he seemed, I didn't feel like I had much choice but to accept him as confirmed town.
...

Further contradiction. He's probably confirmed town without a counter claim - yet in 1037 (when there was still no CC) she has a scumlean on him.

Fishy. Fishy fishy.

So you highlighted my explanation and called it a contradiction? Are you talking about my conflict with his read, which I was open about? That's fishy? That I can see a slot as mechanically town but still believe they're behaving questionably? If that's the case, then your reasoning is atrocious. Or you're intentionally taking something transparent and are pretending it was something subversive.

What you're calling out as "fishy" is a big part of my scum-hunting process. I throw out ideas and voice the concerns I have with players so that I can interact with others in the game to solve the issue. It's brainstorming, and anyone remotely Ne-heavy (for lack of a better summary) does this as naturally as breathing. The fact that no one cared to take part in that conversation, is just another element of my frustration with town.

Both have been projecting their own thought processes onto others without considering that it's merely a matter of personality/personal preference. Shadow is doing it too, which is why I argued his vote on Gamma. I'm not saying it automatically makes them scum or town, seeing as it's some people's default mode for relating to others. It's just that it leads down NAI paths.

[boring]

I'm bored and I feel like I'm primarily talking to myself.
Let's talk about this then: VOTE: PenguinPower

What makes Penguin stand out in your scum pool?

[boring]

Spoiler:

Yeah I honestly don't know what the hell happened the last 5 pages, just seems like poorly calculated move by Shadow regardless if he's telling the truth or not.

Yeah I'm actually in agreement with Shadow here, if you guys can show at least two to three examples of that happening in a mini, that would go a long way into putting this to bed for now. Since from my understanding, both Implosion and Snake are implying that the average player on this site would be to able to play optimally in such a setup.

VOTE: Shadow

If both of you are town we are seriously fucked.

Jeeeez this is terrible. When did I say all my reads are based in Eager's interactions with them?

It seemed implied and either way, I never said that was my reason for voting for you.

Then what is the reason Sherlock?
Did you iso me? You think I'm scum and ccing eager under no pressure when I didn't need to ?

I think you're gambling scum who failed to plan out a distraction.

If this is true, what was he distracting from with the CC?

My best guesses are PP and GE - since they both had (small) wagons on them when Shadow CC'd.

But... that wasn't enough pressure to do much.

What are your thoughts? What was scum!Shadow's goal with CCing?

GE and PP. Their wagons were small but there were various players discussing the cases presented against both in great detail and length. There was pressure for both players to explain their actions and things they've said. It was understood that we would be lynching Gamma or Penguin today. Discussion was happening and it was discussion that would lead to finding scum regardless of how either flipped.

I'm not entirely sure what his goal is other than to remove suspicion from one of Gamma and Penguin, maybe potentially even both. Either that or he read Snake as being a potential threat and he's willing to gamble in order to get rid of him.

Shadow still reads the same to me but I'm willing to move my vote with enough convincing.

To me it still reads like Shadow made look premeditated. The timing is too convenient for me.

Uhh... Please clarify what exactly you mean by these two sentences. I'm not getting it.

I'm saying that Shadow made it look like he intended to counterclaim Snake and that when he did counterclaim, it conveniently was at time where there were some serious discussion and debate going on about the wagons on Gamma and Penguin.

Maybe I've gone too far into the deep end due to the games I've been reading on here. I've seen scum attempt some crazy things and I'm always in the belief that anything is possible. So much that with the experience Snake seems to possess, I think he asked for a no lynch as sort of reaction test to see who would immediately jump on it to reveal who really is impatient and wants to end the day. Of course, he could have possibly been advocating for no a lynch and I can't rule that out in the slightest and just the thought alone doesn't sit well with me.

So intent

As for my popping in and out I'm not really sure what to say. I don't buy the case on boring and I was for Shadow over Snake as all of you know. I wanted to push Maria and Penguin more but we've long moved pass those ideas and/or wagons so I'm sort of left just here on the sidelines until we get some flips.

I didn't even hammer bud!

UNVOTE: Shadow
VOTE: Snake

Since I have time for ISO diving, I thought I'd dredge up these gems.

VOTE: LUV

Now, since we have plenty of time before EOD, I'd "luv" it if you could explain how/why you so drastically flipped script with your intent and hammer. From here, it looks like you magically went from suspecting Shadow (while agreeing that there couldn't be two ascetics) to deciding "yolo! I'm going to hammer the other guy". As far as I can tell, all that happened in between was your trip down the rabbit hole with Gamma.

[boring]

Looking at the lynch yesterday, he provided no arguments for why Eager specifically was scum in the pair, didn't make any strong efforts to decide between the two competing claims, and didn't seem to examine the alternative trains. He just parked and went effectively afk other than an occasional 'this needs rope' style comment.

That to me suggests scum happy to take an easy lynch. He doesn't make an effort to sort out the alignments of all three players being discussed (boring, Eager, SS) because he doesn't care.

I noticed that with him in general yesterday. I've certainly never lifted him out of my scum pool. What do you think are the chances that he and LUV might be on the same team?

[boring]

@boring
You seemed to suggest that you would be able to make useful information from the wagon on you (1037). You've made defenses against the arguments offered by nn30 and implosion (1614); would it be accurate to say that you found implosion the more suspicious of the two (for reasons given in 1609)? Would it be accurate to say that you found implosion the most suspicious of all those players who voted for you?
Also, I'm not seeing that Lil Uzi Vert voted for you. I assume therefore that you find Lil Uzi Vert more suspicious than the most suspicious player who voted for you (presumptively implosion, otherwise specify the player)?

Obviously, at the time, I thought eager was scum. I also thought either Maria or implosion might be a buddy. Obviously, eager and Maria have flipped town, which left me to re-evaluate. I still think there has to be at least one scum on my wagon, and that it leaves implosion, gamma, and nn30 as the scum pool. I don't think Gamma is scum, but if Grendel's right, I'm basing my assumption on something NAI. I don't think nn30 is scum, because even his conf.bias issues seemed towny. I really try not to OMGUS, so I want to take my time on implosion, but he's the POE candidate at the moment.

That's why I set it aside and started looking elsewhere. Regardless of that development, I think LUV is scum, and his flat response didn't help. Yesterday, the only thing that made me doubt his scumminess was that as scum, it would have been all too easy for him to hop on my wagon and save eager. Now, knowing eager is town, he looks worse again, as all he needed was for someone to be at L-1.

[boring]

I don't actually really want to lynch Gamma for being the top scum (despite my vote being there), I was mostly frustrated and exasperated with his persistent uncooperative anti-team-play bullshit.

Whoa. That switch from reluctant voter to impulsive voter... Either way, I found your case on PP pretty compelling. Are you abandoning it?

[boring]

You sound like you were having doubts about Eager being scum and if so, why didn't you state you were when I declared intent?

I'm not sure where you're getting that from. You mean now? Yes. At this very moment, I have enormous doubts about eager being scum. He flipped town. Before the flip, I was as confident about him being scum as one can be without absolute proof.

[boring]

Looking at the lynch yesterday, he provided no arguments for why Eager specifically was scum in the pair, didn't make any strong efforts to decide between the two competing claims, and didn't seem to examine the alternative trains. He just parked and went effectively afk other than an occasional 'this needs rope' style comment.

That to me suggests scum happy to take an easy lynch. He doesn't make an effort to sort out the alignments of all three players being discussed (boring, Eager, SS) because he doesn't care.

No, I cared. I just legit thought that Eager was scum. You should probably put your vote back on me with how strongly you think I'm scum.

VOTE: Gamma

Unlike you, this vote is because I think he's scum.

Never said you were my strongest scum read and I'm not refraining from anything. I'm taking my time and reevualting.

I was one of two of your scumreads in 522 which haven't changed, and I've only grown since then. According to you.

You seem to like to stay in an unvote state...it's kind of nice not to take a stance on anything, right? Gotta keep those options open until you can hammer town.

Actually, while looking back at vote counts at yours, Zoronos was in an unvote state in every. single. one. He has lots to say, but not much to do.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Zoronos

Ewww..

[boring]

@Grendel, what are your thoughts on PP and LUV?

[boring]

Spoiler:

Looking at the lynch yesterday, he provided no arguments for why Eager specifically was scum in the pair, didn't make any strong efforts to decide between the two competing claims, and didn't seem to examine the alternative trains. He just parked and went effectively afk other than an occasional 'this needs rope' style comment.

That to me suggests scum happy to take an easy lynch. He doesn't make an effort to sort out the alignments of all three players being discussed (boring, Eager, SS) because he doesn't care.

No, I cared. I just legit thought that Eager was scum. You should probably put your vote back on me with how strongly you think I'm scum.

VOTE: Gamma

Unlike you, this vote is because I think he's scum.

Never said you were my strongest scum read and I'm not refraining from anything. I'm taking my time and reevualting.

I was one of two of your scumreads in 522 which haven't changed, and I've only grown since then. According to you.

You seem to like to stay in an unvote state...it's kind of nice not to take a stance on anything, right? Gotta keep those options open until you can hammer town.

Actually, while looking back at vote counts at yours, Zoronos was in an unvote state in every. single. one. He has lots to say, but not much to do.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Zoronos

Ewww..

What is this about?

It's scummy, scummy. He's made two scummy votes in a row, and I figured they belonged in a compilation together.

[boring]

I don't get how those votes are scummy.

He gave no explanation for voting you, and then abandoned you to vote for Zoronos for something that's been available for scrutiny for quite some time. It's arbitrary.

[boring]

VCA is crap.

[boring]

Nope.

VOTE: Gamma

I guess I'll explain tomorrow when I put a case up. I have to get off soon.

In the meantime you can explain why you were so quick to sheep your tertiary scum read.

Don't forget to explain this. I've based a lot of my Gamma read on meta from the previous game, and you know him better than any of us.

[boring]

I've actually been fostering a Grendel scumread because of the fact I can't find anything to townread him on that's non-meta. I'm hoping things will be easier to sort with a flip.

Can you be more specific?

[boring]

@Implosion - You're making a lot of assumptions. I said before that I'm still sorting things out. I don't know what to think of Shadow at the moment, and you'll see that I've not hopped on any wagons with him. I have to sort you and Shadow out. Eager was scummy to me, and the counterclaim clinched it. He flipped town ascetic, but as just about everyone has said, there was no scum motivation for Shadow's move. Unless, you think he could have predicted that outcome, which I find highly unlikely.

So I have my POE on you, and my tilting on Shadow. Him being alive still, is questionable as well. Unless scum kept him alive as a potential mislynch. Of course, your post seems like exactly the thing scum would do if disappointed that their easy mislynch candidate is being ignored (i.e., trying to maneuver a tunnelee into a vote). I very highly doubt that you could both be scum, and it's unlikely that you're both town. I still get town vibes from him. He hasn't changed a lick since the game started. Of the two, you're still the scummier. Of course, repeating myself again, I don't know if I'm letting OMGUS get in the way. Hence my decision to set this aside for now. I was wrong Day 1, and I don't want to be wrong Day 2.

I'm rather confident about LUV being scum. He could be bad town, but I'm really leaning toward scum, so that's where my vote is staying for now. I'm beginning to question Gamma, but I'd like to wait to see what Grendel has to share, and how Gamma handles whatever it is before I rescind my townlean.

[boring]

@Grendel, that was actually worth waiting for. I doubt we have to wait long for Gamma's response.

@Penguin, you made me LOL.

p-edit - LOL

[boring]

And as I said, me pre-defending myself on ties to Eager clears me.

Please stop. Anyone can "pre-defend" or otherwise attempt to derp clear themselves when they know who's what. The only thing you're doing by claiming to be cleared is throwing (me at least) through a too-scummy-to-be-scum loop.

Do you think Grendel has any point at all? Is anything he said true to you?

p-edit: the fact that I predicted you'd be around soon to respond and you ninja'd my prediction.

[boring]

So what about you though. Do you see the validity of what I'm saying?

It's your word against his. So this sets up the question of how sure I am about you. All I really need is to be more confident in my read on you than him.

You've both been town leans for me. His through meta, and yours through your play in this game. On principle, I think town leans earned in-game should trump meta.

My problem is, I've relied on meta with him because (I'm repeating myself) I find him impossible to follow. He's a nice enough fellow, and I value flexibility in a person, but I can't tell his head from his butt, and I don't think he can either, sometimes. I preyed on that in our last game because it makes him a really easy mislynch. I saw no difference in his playstyle, so I've spent the game thinking of him as scum bait.

It's a little lazy, but it's all I've got on someone so foreign to me.

You and he have a lot of experience together, from what I gather. So you're someone I'd have depend on for help reading him. You're saying he's scum. It looks like you're sticking your neck out to do so (which is something scum is less likely to do).

I think your point is valid. As is nn30's, which is riding along behind yours. Assuming you're town. But I think of the two of you, I have to choose you.

I'm very comfortable on LUV because scum, but if that wagon isn't happening today, I'm open to Gamma.

[boring]

Actually, hey Boring who do you think is the scum and why?

LUV because he's been scummy. I don't think he forgot about the game, by the way. How do you forget you're in a game? I think he was lurking in the hopes that we'd forget about him and focus on other players. I mean at this point, unless he's REALLY bad town, it's his best chance to stay alive as scum.

I've been rethinking my stance on Gamma. As I said before to Grendel, I think I have a stronger town read on Grendel than Gamma, and Grendel is putting his word on the line that Gamma is scum. I skimmed through the last game (I'll admit I didn't scour it because if I had time to scour a game, I'd be better off doing this one) and he didn't "forget" who he was voting for. He was flaky, of course, but consistent within his own pattern of whatever.

I can also see how Penguin could be scum, but I really don't think he and Gamma could be scum together.

Every time implosion feels scummy. His posts seem opportunistic, he errs on the side of strawman, and he's unnecessarily hostile. On the other hand, he might not be scum.

I think Shadow could be scum because eager, but I've accepted that I could have just been wrong. It's just that the idea of two ascetics is crazy.

I've had a few tinfoils run through my head in which nn30, Grendel, and/or Prism could be scum, but I already have more scum than there are scum, and so I don't have time to entertain it.

[boring]

You say "On the other hand, he might not be scum" which is kinda true for every player in this game. Which side do you think is more likely? My apologies, but having an on-the-other-hand makes this read seem a bit wishy-washy.

That's because it is wishy-washy. I'm afraid to risk another TvT day when there are 2-3 other scum running around. His posts feel scummy. His big-picture is scummy. When it comes to inferring motivation, I'm falling a little short. He could be trying to stir up trouble and get some easy mislynches. I'm pretty low-hanging fruit right now, and everyone knows it. But, I have to ask myself whether I'd still see him in a scummy light if he was tunneling someone else instead of me? Am I having a knee-jerk reaction?

Your partial validation of my observations helps. I know Prism was after him a while back, and I'd like to see an update on implosion from him. Dierfire also appears to have a problem at least with this approach, but I'm not sure if he's inferring alignment with it. His perspective could also help. I think the three of you are town. I also think nn30 and Grendel are town. So their views won't hurt either.

[boring]

You say "On the other hand, he might not be scum" which is kinda true for every player in this game. Which side do you think is more likely? My apologies, but having an on-the-other-hand makes this read seem a bit wishy-washy.

That's because it is wishy-washy. I'm afraid to risk another TvT day when there are 2-3 other scum running around. His posts feel scummy. His big-picture is scummy. When it comes to inferring motivation, I'm falling a little short. He could be trying to stir up trouble and get some easy mislynches. I'm pretty low-hanging fruit right now, and everyone knows it. But, I have to ask myself whether I'd still see him in a scummy light if he was tunneling someone else instead of me? Am I having a knee-jerk reaction?

Well... do you think you're having a knee-jerk reaction?

I'm okay with LUV getting lynched, but my top priority right now is Gamma.

I think I'm maybe having a knee-jerk reaction, but that my knee-jerk reaction isn't necessarily wrong. Hence the request for feedback.

[boring]

Hrm
VOTE: Lil Uzi Vert
OPPORTUNISTIC VOTE

I'm uncomfortable with this. As much as I want to see LUV lynched today, I don't understand why you're voting him.

[boring]

I'm voting him because
1) I find him scummy
2) He's my counterwagon

I thought you were just town reading him, and aren't you scum-reading me? Someone being your counterwagon is a terrible reason to vote them.

[boring]

Literally nobody likes my case on Penguin? He has done absolutely fucking nothing all day D2, and basically did nothing D1, but "Nah, that's cool, let's just ignore him"?

You people.

I've said that i like your argument on PP. I like Grendel's argument on Gamma. But unless the scum team is LUV+Gamma+PP, the situation bears some further scrutiny. (if the scum team is them, and we lose, we should all permaban ourselves in shame).

You say "On the other hand, he might not be scum" which is kinda true for every player in this game. Which side do you think is more likely? My apologies, but having an on-the-other-hand makes this read seem a bit wishy-washy.

That's because it is wishy-washy. I'm afraid to risk another TvT day when there are 2-3 other scum running around. His posts feel scummy. His big-picture is scummy. When it comes to inferring motivation, I'm falling a little short. He could be trying to stir up trouble and get some easy mislynches. I'm pretty low-hanging fruit right now, and everyone knows it. But, I have to ask myself whether I'd still see him in a scummy light if he was tunneling someone else instead of me? Am I having a knee-jerk reaction?

Your partial validation of my observations helps. I know Prism was after him a while back, and I'd like to see an update on implosion from him. Dierfire also appears to have a problem at least with this approach, but I'm not sure if he's inferring alignment with it. His perspective could also help. I think the three of you are town. I also think nn30 and Grendel are town. So their views won't hurt either.

I feel like you didn't really answer my question.
When you say you're afraid you don't want to risk another TvT day is that because your read on Implosion is just a slight lean versus a full blown This Is The Scum Vote It Now? Or something else?

Sorry, yes. I think implosion is scummy. I'm just hesitant to go down that rabbit hole for the reasons stated above. I need more info before I'd feel comfortable pushing a wagon on him like I'm doing LUV. I know my read on LUV isn't reactionary.

[boring]

@zoronos - I've found my scum, made my case, and I've staked out a few more options. Sure, I have one more scum read than there are scum, but I'm working on it. I've hunted down some town too, whom I'm using as a gauge for my own reads.

So I don't know where you get off saying I've not been hunting. Especially with all your largely voteless posturing.

Vote LUV, and find out how much hunting I've done.

[boring]

@zoronos - I've found my scum, made my case, and I've staked out a few more options. Sure, I have one more scum read than there are scum, but I'm working on it. I've hunted down some town too, whom I'm using as a gauge for my own reads.So I don't know where you get off saying I've not been hunting. Especially with all your largely voteless posturing. Vote LUV, and find out how much hunting I've done.

I feel you've been much more reactive than pro-active, but if I can't get any traction on PP, my vote will be on LUV because I don't think it's going on Gamma at this juncture.
[/quote]
With so much heat on me Day 1, while I was V/LA, I only had time to keep my head above water. Since then, I've slowly gained traction. At least to the point that you're willing to hop onto the wagon I'm pushing. Unless you've decided that leading a wagon isn't proactive.

Or is it that you expect some insane tunnel vision? There's more to scumhunting than bitching about how ignored you are, you know.

[boring]

I don't get why people say Gamma and PP can't both be scum, by the way. Or do we think they're both such morons that they can't possibly fake this?

[boring]

Gamma. You're defending yourself very, very poorly. Your defences are nonsensical.

@Grendel - has he ever done this as town that you know of? He didn't try these stunts when he was town with me.

[boring]

Wow. Sorry about post #1884. My phone butchered the quotes. That was supposed to be my quote, then zoronos's quote, and then my response.

[boring]

I also feel like we're missing a lot of players.

[boring]

I think some folks should unvote while we wait for people to check in and see if there's a counterclaim.

Now, to make the request more prominent...

Someone please unvote Gamma so no one can "accidentally" hammer.

[boring]

If Gamma's telling the truth, then that knocks both Gamma and Implosion out of my scum pool. That leaves LUV, and quite probably PP, as scum.

I'm still happy with my vote, but I'd be even happier to see a few more votes on LUV (four more, to be precise).

[boring]

@Gamma - please explain why you chose to investigate Implosion over other people.

I actually wrote this down to decide who to use my ability on.

Who to cop in Mini 1838.
Night 1
Thoughts on me + Eager(anyone saying me and Eager were likely scum together is clear)
Clear: Shadow, Prism,
Not clear: Zoronos, nn30
Opinions on ascetics
Eager is wrong: Shadow
Both are right: Maria, Eager, implosion
Shadow is wrong: LUV, nn30
I’ll cop implosion because he was the strongest fighter for the two ascetics idea

Why'd you leave me, PP, Grendel, and Dierfire out of your reasoning, by the way?

[boring]

@Prism, I don't get how you can be sitting on the bandwagon I'm leading and say I'm your second most likely scum. It makes no sense at all. I dug through his ISO and made a case today. I named him as probable scum end of day 2 too. If you really think I'm scum, wouldn't that make you question your read on LUV, of vice versa?

[boring]

EBWOP.. I meant end of day 1, not day 2.

[boring]

@Grendel, is there a reason you're waiting to vote at this point? Since it seems like you're trying to sort out PP and Zoronos, would you be willing to vote LUV in the meantime?

[boring]

Penguin - I don't have any specific thoughts other than that a meta-diving him on his scum games reveals similar play style to this version of Pengin.

This is funny. Sorry, just want to call this one out for endgame (and as a blatant lie). None of my scum games have been anywhere close to this one. Feel free to meta me, anyone.

If you want to prove a point, you have to put in the effort to prove it. No one is going to care enough to sift through meta to clear a scum read, and it's a waste of time if someone thinks you're town.

So tell us or show us how/why this game differs so much from your scum games, if that's going to be your line of defense.

[boring]

Hm, Shadow seemed like he had more to say about Gamma's claim. Want to hear more from him.

Why am I being scum read again? Anyone actually buy the cases boring and Prism are presenting?

This post encapsulates what confirmed LUV as scum for me. His play since has just acted to further solidify the read. There's nothing to "buy", unless you're going to deny that this is your ISO.

Spoiler:

Yeah I honestly don't know what the hell happened the last 5 pages, just seems like poorly calculated move by Shadow regardless if he's telling the truth or not.

Yeah I'm actually in agreement with Shadow here, if you guys can show at least two to three examples of that happening in a mini, that would go a long way into putting this to bed for now. Since from my understanding, both Implosion and Snake are implying that the average player on this site would be to able to play optimally in such a setup.

VOTE: Shadow

If both of you are town we are seriously fucked.

Jeeeez this is terrible. When did I say all my reads are based in Eager's interactions with them?

It seemed implied and either way, I never said that was my reason for voting for you.

Then what is the reason Sherlock?
Did you iso me? You think I'm scum and ccing eager under no pressure when I didn't need to ?

I think you're gambling scum who failed to plan out a distraction.

If this is true, what was he distracting from with the CC?

My best guesses are PP and GE - since they both had (small) wagons on them when Shadow CC'd.

But... that wasn't enough pressure to do much.

What are your thoughts? What was scum!Shadow's goal with CCing?

GE and PP. Their wagons were small but there were various players discussing the cases presented against both in great detail and length. There was pressure for both players to explain their actions and things they've said. It was understood that we would be lynching Gamma or Penguin today. Discussion was happening and it was discussion that would lead to finding scum regardless of how either flipped.

I'm not entirely sure what his goal is other than to remove suspicion from one of Gamma and Penguin, maybe potentially even both. Either that or he read Snake as being a potential threat and he's willing to gamble in order to get rid of him.

Shadow still reads the same to me but I'm willing to move my vote with enough convincing.

To me it still reads like Shadow made look premeditated. The timing is too convenient for me.

Uhh... Please clarify what exactly you mean by these two sentences. I'm not getting it.

I'm saying that Shadow made it look like he intended to counterclaim Snake and that when he did counterclaim, it conveniently was at time where there were some serious discussion and debate going on about the wagons on Gamma and Penguin.

Maybe I've gone too far into the deep end due to the games I've been reading on here. I've seen scum attempt some crazy things and I'm always in the belief that anything is possible. So much that with the experience Snake seems to possess, I think he asked for a no lynch as sort of reaction test to see who would immediately jump on it to reveal who really is impatient and wants to end the day. Of course, he could have possibly been advocating for no a lynch and I can't rule that out in the slightest and just the thought alone doesn't sit well with me.

So intent

As for my popping in and out I'm not really sure what to say. I don't buy the case on boring and I was for Shadow over Snake as all of you know. I wanted to push Maria and Penguin more but we've long moved pass those ideas and/or wagons so I'm sort of left just here on the sidelines until we get some flips.

I didn't even hammer bud!

UNVOTE: Shadow
VOTE: Snake

Since I have time for ISO diving, I thought I'd dredge up these gems.

VOTE: LUV

Now, since we have plenty of time before EOD, I'd "luv" it if you could explain how/why you so drastically flipped script with your intent and hammer. From here, it looks like you magically went from suspecting Shadow (while agreeing that there couldn't be two ascetics) to deciding "yolo! I'm going to hammer the other guy". As far as I can tell, all that happened in between was your trip down the rabbit hole with Gamma.

Oh and by the way, I'll be playing from here on forward. Don't think I'll have enough time to do an entire reread of Day 1.

In other words, laying low hasn't been working for you, so you're gonna have to try to spin your way out of this.

[boring]

Town would be attempting to work with me and get me on their side. Because. Ya know. We need to work together to find scum.

Scum would be attempting to work with you and get on your side. Because. Ya know. They need to not die to win the game.

You guys are doing that thing again where you're projecting based on personality. Some people manipulate through cooperation, others, through hissy fits (AtE). Unless you guys know how Penguin plays, you have no way of knowing whether these weird tantrums are AI/NAI. Better to look at motivation.

Which brings us to why meta is important.

I think we're in meta land again kinda.

It helps you sort between personality and pathology. It's easy to say that meta is crap when you don't know any of the players (or you want them to not meta-read you), but it has its value.

[boring]

I got Town.

Then I guess I'm really unclear why we're on this tangent?

Same.

Gamma's was a bold, straightforward claim that's not been CC'd. He softed a PR claim ahead of time, and his claim that implosion is town lines up with his play today. Granted, until Grendel's meta argument, I was Gamma was already leaning town for me, but even if I was scum leaning him (as I was implosion), I don't see why that would continue to hold now.

Maybe Shadow is pursuing these tangents because it would appear that Gamma and implosion were his primary scum reads today.

[boring]

re: LUV
as I said earlier today, my boring suspicion remains moderate to high, so I'm vaguely uncomfortable with any train of which she is the voice.
Which I guess is a long way of saying, help me work through my boring read.
My boring read is stronger than my 'dumpster a person who is noncontributory / nonsensical' stance at the moment, so I'm not super comfortable swinging that direction. I get where you're coming from, but my hackles are too far up at Boring at the moment.

How about this: Help me lynch LUV. Then Day 3, you and I (and implosion too, if that's what we're into) can go into couples counseling together.

[boring]

re: LUV
as I said earlier today, my boring suspicion remains moderate to high, so I'm vaguely uncomfortable with any train of which she is the voice.
Which I guess is a long way of saying, help me work through my boring read.
My boring read is stronger than my 'dumpster a person who is noncontributory / nonsensical' stance at the moment, so I'm not super comfortable swinging that direction. I get where you're coming from, but my hackles are too far up at Boring at the moment.

How about this: Help me lynch LUV. Then Day 3, you and I (and implosion too, if that's what we're into) can go into couples counseling together.

I don't think I'm ready for that level of commitment yet.

Spoiler:

[boring]

Town would be attempting to work with me and get me on their side. Because. Ya know. We need to work together to find scum.

Scum would be attempting to work with you and get on your side. Because. Ya know. They need to not die to win the game.

You guys are doing that thing again where you're projecting based on personality. Some people manipulate through cooperation, others, through hissy fits (AtE). Unless you guys know how Penguin plays, you have no way of knowing whether these weird tantrums are AI/NAI. Better to look at motivation.

Which brings us to why meta is important.

I think we're in meta land again kinda.

It helps you sort between personality and pathology. It's easy to say that meta is crap when you don't know any of the players (or you want them to not meta-read you), but it has its value.

What's the motivation for PP calling me a liar?

Tantrums can go both ways. I mean implosion called me a liar for something that's very easily chalked down to perpective, which I interpreted as a tantrum as well.

It depends on if you think he was arguing with you in the heat of the moment, or trying to appeal to a broader audience in an attempt to subvert your credibility.

Which does it look like to you?

[boring]

Mod's page-top-nabbing only serves to make him feel more god-like.

[boring]

UNVOTE:
I'm more inclined to believe Zoronos. But I'll give this some time.

[boring]

Scum!LUV has nothing to lose with a last-minute claim. Scum!Zoronos has no reason to counterclaim so quickly without first testing the waters. If it comes down to who I trust more, Zoronos or LUV, I'm picking Zoronos.

However, the roles are different, and serve different functions. I've only been playing mafia for 4 months. What are the chances that both are telling the truth?

[boring]

Scum!LUV has nothing to lose with a last-minute claim. Scum!Zoronos has no reason to counterclaim so quickly without first testing the waters. If it comes down to who I trust more, Zoronos or LUV, I'm picking Zoronos.

However, the roles are different, and serve different functions. I've only been playing mafia for 4 months. What are the chances that both are telling the truth?

I've been playing mafia for ~3 years, granted mostly not on these boards. In a game this size, as a setup designer, I would never combine Doc, Cop, and Jailer. That seems crazy to me personally. Even with two 'millers' (our ascetics) as negative utility. But that's just my instincts as a mod kicking in, and I've never modded on this site.
Which is probably best illustrated by my immediate urge to cause bullshit and yell my role. Which maybe was a poor choice on my part but oh well. People can call me bad in post game, I don't care.

btw this would be the place to follow up to my D1 spat with you on "How PR's should play"

I haven't played with all the different roles. I know it's crazy that we'd have two ascetics, considering how obscure the role is. Also, until the eager/shadow thing, I didn't know it was possible to be just ascetic. I thought it was a modifier. Like ascetic cop or ascetic goon or something. I didn't know just "ascetic town" was a thing. It seemed too random for us to have two. In the interest of not mislynching again, I'm trying to be more open minded about what's possible.

If you really think jailkeeper is a counterclaim to a doc, I guess you had no choice but to claim. I assumed you had to have the same role to counterclaim, otherwise, you're just revealing your role for no reason.

[boring]

Like nn30 is ob town after that. Unless he is a very good scum player. I'll have to check his games to make sure.

Soooooo... How does someone go from ob town to not?

That was over 1500 posts ago. "Obv. town" isn't one of those titles you get to hold onto forever.

[boring]

He saying unless we're in a multiball setup since he jailed me, and there was only one NK, I would be a SK.

This is really WIFOMing me. I know you said that SK is the only other-faction option, but I disagree. I think with day-talk we may easily have two 2-player scum teams. Even then, it's possible that one or more of these claims could be scum claiming PRs within their faction to be more believable.

Not the point. The point is that you skipped that possibility and went straight to SK. I feel like this could very well be a slip.

[boring]

I am a little astounded at how little anyone has to say, but okay.
Little Uzi Vert

Boring, I was probably wrong about you. Oops.

I'm not sure about the rest of the party, but this is my first chance to goof off today.

Zoronos - the more I think about it, the more I believe your claim. I'm not so sure about LUV's just because it seems awfully convenient. How sure are you that he's false-claiming? The loss of a doc would SUCK.

[boring]

I'm going to run the numbers on lynching inside and outside the protective roles soon.

What do you mean?

[boring]

also, trying to NA resolve it assumes scum have no roleblocker, strong man, or similar, which is not a great gamble to take.
LUV is the correct lynch here. If you thought he was scum before the counterclaim, then nothing has changed from prior unless you think his like 2 posts he made before disappearing oozed towniness.

I agree with you.
VOTE: Lil Uzi Vert

There is 0 reason, as scum, for Zoronos to cc there when a lynch on boring was the next likely candidate (in which case she would have done it)

To clarify, if he's scum and boring isn't, he just lets us transition. If he's scum with boring, boring is the one who should have cc'd instead. Maybe another wagon like PP could have happened instead but practically half the town wanted boring and still do.

You've made your thoughts waaaay less clear with this statement.

[boring]

Noooo 2159 is actually quite clear.

Feel free to act as his interpreter, in that case.

[boring]

Okay, I think I can buy that.

[boring]

Hm. What helped?

Was this directed at me? What helped what?

[boring]

Hm. What helped?

Was this directed at me? What helped what?

You agreed with me after my explanation. What was the problem in the first place?

I didn't understand what he was trying to say. You said you understood it, and rephrased. I thought your version of what he said made some sense.

[boring]

The thing is, I rephrased it in a way that doesn't directly implicate boring, and then she agreed.

The thing is, I didn't understand what he was saying, and you explained. I didn't see any implication in his statement because I didn't understand his statement.

[boring]

Honestly, I think Prism's copy-cat thing seems a little petty to be the main issue leading to a primary scum read. I've thought LUV was scum most of the game thus far, and I've been glad for the company on his wagon, but I wish Prism was a little less near-sighted with his reasoning.

[boring]

I admit that nn30 hasn't been the greenest player lately, but the only reason I see to actually vote him right now is Dier's VCA, and while it seemed pretty well done, I can't see myself voting based on VCA alone. (and that, gentlemen, was a run-on sentence)

Now PP, you presented a compelling argument, but I find that I need more than he's scum. Are these just gut reads? Is there anything more?

@Zoronos - What are you thinking?

[boring]

who are you addressing here? ^^^

[boring]

I admit that nn30 hasn't been the greenest player lately, but the only reason I see to actually vote him right now is Dier's VCA, and while it seemed pretty well done, I can't see myself voting based on VCA alone. (and that, gentlemen, was a run-on sentence)

Now PP, you presented a compelling argument, but I find that I need more than he's scum. Are these just gut reads? Is there anything more?

@Zoronos - What are you thinking?

I am thinking a number of things.
Overnight my suspicion basically went to the people that seemed the most skeptical of LUV's fake claim (since scum know he's faking), or that were way over the top non-skeptical.
I was also looking at voting position on the wagon. I find that scum love to be on scum lynches, so I was looking for bus votes on the tail end of the wagon.

I am momentarily distracted by NN leaping to what seems to be superior knowledge about what went down at night, since blaming me for 'Why did you not jail Gamma!?!!' could easily be scum superior knowledge that a) they know they didn't roleblock me, ergo they know I didn't or b) they did roleblock me and feel like blaming me for that.

But I totally didn't jail Gamma. I figured the obvious kill was me, so I jailed offensively again since it was the only chance I felt to stop the NK. No sane scum team would go to the dome on Gamma unless they had a roleblocker or strongman (which I couldn't stop anyway), so either they had it and there's no point trying to counterplay that, or they were just going to kill me. In both cases jailing gamma just stops a clear coming back and doesn't save anyone.

Ergo, they either out-meta'ed me, or they have the roleblocker / strongman / whatever.

I also had a moment of doubt about whether he was actually cop based on some ~events~ from yesterday, but I guess that doubt got resolved.

I was expecting you to be dead today too, since going for Gamma would be a huge gamble, but here we are. I agree that it would have been unhelpful to block Gamma on his last productive night. I'm thinking that roleblocker is more likely, by the way.

Are you going to give us a comprehensive reads list and tell us who you blocked before EOD? I know it won't totally clear them as town, but it would be good info to have before you kick the bucket.

[boring]

I think the weirdest thing about Prism yesterday, aside from his odd reasoning on LUV, was that he didn't seem bat an eye over LUV's Doc claim. That said, he's still a town lean.

[boring]

VOTE: Grendel

^
That's the dude I jailed. I could see him on the most possible scum teams, he didn't seem to have any skeptiscm on LUV's claim (instantly jumped to clearly scum) and his vote on LUV was in prime bussing position.

What do you think about the meta argument he made on Gamma before his claim? That was a pretty risky move for scum, don't you think? How about his reaction to Gamma's claim? Was there anything about that which seemed particularly scummy to you? Or is your read primarily based the events at the end of day 2?

[boring]

VOTE: boring

I do not get the boring townreads at all. Boring was coming off a borderline disastrous Day 1 where she got herself into a 1v1 with someone who flipped town, then had someone who hard scumread her nightkilled. It makes a lot of sense to bus Day 2. Reading boring does nothing to convince me that this isn't the case. The Day 1 pushes people are widely citing are offhanded comments here are there while she pushes someone else. Her end of day suggestion to go on LUV over eager was in #1452, when the vote was 5 eager 3 boring with Eager yet to vote. It was already locked between her and Eager and whether or not she'd lose seemed up in the air. A lot of these newfound townreads on boring are just reflexive reactions to the LUV flip, and at least one of them is coming from scum. I still think Maria dying wasn't a coincidence.

In both these arguments, you're suggesting that I've completely changed my scum-play (and possibly suffered brain damage in the interim). Hard bussing from Day 1 is idiotic. Especially when there are so many bad town running around to provide easy counter wagons. So is killing the person most vocal against you, by the way. Not to mention it being crazy for a scum team to allow that kind of reckless killing pattern.

Then there's this:

I was expecting you to be dead today too, since going for Gamma would be a huge gamble, but here we are. I agree that it would have been unhelpful to block Gamma on his last productive night. I'm thinking that roleblocker is more likely, by the way.

It's unhelpful to block Gamma last night, and thus Zoronos isn't going to do it. She acknowledges this. If a random town knows it scum knows it. Why did she expect a Gamma death?

I can't even.

Okay, assuming that was a typo, and not a senior moment, there's a difference between suspecting and knowing. There's no way that scum would risk a no-kill night. Unless the scum team can't math. Of course, your assumption that I'm scum seems to be based on the belief that I'm stupid, so maybe simple arithmetic is beyond me.

[boring]

Honestly, Penguin, your push on nn30 is part of what's making me drag my feet on him. Sure, you hammered LUV, but that was after the gambit, when it was clear he was getting lynched anyway. In fact, I'm more than a little surprised that Zoronos wasn't more suspicious of you, based on the votes, than Grendel.

First, you went after Gamma. Then, when he was revealed as cop, you went after Zoronos. LUV continued to get pressure, but you didn't vote him. I think it's very conceivable that the scum team told him to gambit to flush out any protectors. Then, when he got to L-1 again, and the gambit got its results, you hammered with little warning, to cut off further discussion.

VOTE: Penguin

[boring]

We also need to think about when we're going to massclaim. If anything, the death of the cop over the jailkeeper lends credence to scum not having a roleblocker; if they did they could kill the jk and block the cop indefinitely, which is safer than the alternative of leaving the jk alive and possibly getting roleblocked at 1 scum left.

That might make sense, if they're allowed to target the same player two nights in a row. That is, for a team with an RB/JK to be killing Zoronos first. I still think it's more likely for a PR-weak mafia team to kill Zoronos first too, just in case he did decide to Keep Gamma.

[boring]

@Dierfire - Can you explain why you are certain about Shadow being town? I still have some doubt, based on the facts that he's unconfirmed and eager really was town ascetic.

p-edit: you didn't think the post-reveal had anything to offer? What's stopping PP from joining Grendel in your fully scum pile?

[boring]

When I attacked LUV on day 1, boring had a "problem" with it.

You're incorrect. It was the beginning of Day 1, and I was questioning you. My line of inquiry was trying to solve you as a played. You had voted brazenly which I thought was preemptive. I also wanted to understand why you were willing to just accept that your scum read was voting your other scum read without flinching on either. I concluded by your answers that you were town with an over-inflated ego. If it weren't for the fact that I'm still not sure about there being 2 ascetics, you'd still be squarely in that peg.

[boring]

EBWOP: "My line of inquiry was trying to solve you as a player."

nn30, that's an amazing amount of work. Give me a little time to read through it all this evening, and I'll let you know what I think.

[boring]

What does QFT mean?

[boring]

@Dierfire - I don't think there's any reason to doubt that both Implosion and Zoronos are town. Implosion is confirmed by a dead cop, and Zoronos is as good as confirmed CC'ing LUV.

[boring]

@nn30 - I appreciate that your mind changed throughout the process. Some thoughts: a) if Grendel flips red, you've put your head on the chopping block; b) I found myself reaching different conclusions than you with a few of the ISO blocks (please don't ask for details tonight. I'm exhausted). It comes down [again] to projecting our own personalities onto the decisions of others; and c) I think this helped me to place both of you as townleans for now.

This is hard.

I'm beginning to wonder if I should look outside of these two for a bit.

I guess I'm not reaching a conclusion tonight.

I guess I'm not reaching a conclusion tonight.

These three quotes occurred 30 minutes apart. This is either really detail oriented scum who is methodically leaving breadcrumbs, or towny. This post feels towny to me.

It's largely irrelevant at this point, but I'm curious as to what your third intended quote was, seeing as you had a repeat in there.

By the way, are you at all willing to give PP a try?

p-edit: Zoronos, you crafty ninja.

[boring]

Anyone with experience reading the musings of dead scum want to chime in here? I don't have any game experience to fall back on - I'm deferring to the help of my town. I trust Prism, Boring, Implosion with answering this as I think they're least likely to be scum (and to mislead me with their answer).

I want people to chime in here who have experience in the site and either confirm or deny that scum have left breadcrumbs in their games.

This is my first town game on MS. My other 3 were scum. I've had a few town games on MU, but they go so much faster (36h/12h, typically), that you don't have a lot of time for ISO-diving (unless you have an inconceivable amount of time on your hands). Regardless, to answer your question, the informed minority (scum) are in a position to place all manner of "breadcrumbs", knowing that at least one or two will come in handy later. If I could manage it effectively it as a complete newbie, I assume that any experienced player can figure it out.

[boring]

@Boring - thanks for the insight. Gun to your head - is Grendel scum?

He's not the towniest player in the game, but he's not in my bottom two. So probably not as things stand. (you don't have enough gym badges to stop me from turning a yes/no question into a full sentence)

[boring]

Consider how much I value meta, do you really think I'd soil my ability to self meta in future by using it as scum?

I think this line of reasoning will paint you into a corner, since truth-tells are against this site's rules.

[boring]

Oh man, I didn't even see that boring described her own play as "hard bussing from day one." I'd love to hear a justification of how listing him as your fourth-strongest scumread, saying you'd be willing to settle for lynching him if you couldn't lynch eager, and then justifying that read further when asked about it amounts to "hard bussing" because I can't see anything else on d1 that you said about him.

I started suspecting him middle/end of day 1, and posted as much especially toward the end of the day. I'm not sure if you've noticed, but the end of a day isn't called a different day. You may have also noticed that I was V/LA half of day 1, and a leading wagon, so there was a bit of distractiin flying around.

[boring]

Okay guys, I'm strapped for time again, again. I'll be brief and hopefully I can follow-up Friday and Sunday with more detail.

Implosion, as usual, you seem to be arguing semantics and personality in lieu of actual scum-hunting.

Prism, I'm going to need you to reread my post. I said your argument was crap because it's based on the assumption that I have the intelligence and subtlety of an Easter ham, which, frankly, anyone would find a bit insulting. Either way, it's time to move onto crazy tunnel #4. Maaaaybe PP?

Shadow, your batting average has been pretty sad this game. Make #1838 great again. Vote PP.

Grendel, I was trying to be helpful because you looked like you were veering yourself toward danger. Since private messages aren't an option for us, I said it in thread. You're welcome. If I was fishing for a mod kill, I would have just PM'd the mod, and rubbed my hands together muttering "gooood, gooood", wouldn't I?

Dierfire, why does basically everyone have you as null? It's mighty shady at this point in the game.

nn30, vote PP.

Zoronos, get back here so you can talk some sense into these ninnies.

PP, vote PP.

[boring]

@boring

Dierfire, why does basically everyone have you as null? It's mighty shady at this point in the game.

Ha ha, I agree; I find it a bit strange that so many players don't have a read on me. Or did you mean that you're suspicious of me because other players are reading me as Null? I'm not so skilled that I can control how other players read me.

I'm like the rest, and find you null. It's unnerving.

[boring]

Implosion, as usual, you seem to be arguing semantics and personality in lieu of actual scum-hunting.

I fail to see how literally anything that I said in 2334 has anything to do with either semantics or personality. At all. Almost all of the points there weren't even about your play. You continue the trend of responding to my points by sidestepping them, in this case just completely mischaracterizing them. Unless you're referring to me criticizing you for describing your play as hard bussing, in which case your response here:

Oh man, I didn't even see that boring described her own play as "hard bussing from day one." I'd love to hear a justification of how listing him as your fourth-strongest scumread, saying you'd be willing to settle for lynching him if you couldn't lynch eager, and then justifying that read further when asked about it amounts to "hard bussing" because I can't see anything else on d1 that you said about him.

I started suspecting him middle/end of day 1, and posted as much especially toward the end of the day. I'm not sure if you've noticed, but the end of a day isn't called a different day. You may have also noticed that I was V/LA half of day 1, and a leading wagon, so there was a bit of distractiin flying around.

is yet again an utter sidestep to the point I'm making. You started suspecting him. You never pushed him on d1. You only cited him as a backup if you couldn't get your preferred lynch on eager. And yet now you're trying to call yourself obvtown because you would have had to have "hard-bussed d1" which you wouldn't do. Which is a load of bs. You didn't hard bus. You didn't even bus. You plainly distanced from him and then bussed him when he became the obvious direction to bus in on d2 after his terrible end-of-day that would leave almost anyone suspicious of him.

That's not just a semantic difference. That is you saying you did things that you just very blatantly did not do and claiming that you are town for doing those things that you did not do. That's ridiculously scummy.

More semantics. Look, at the end of Day 1, I don't remember who asked me, but I posted (and I'm summarizing, professor) that regardless of the outcome between eager and shadow, LUV was scum. He was largely ignored at that point in the game, and it was before he out-of-the-blue hammered eager. Your premise just doesn't hold water.

Obviously, that was super scummy. (I don't get why everyone else needed so much damned convincing), and I didn't see much reason to move on from him unless there was no chance that day to lynch him (I don't see the point in ending a day on a vanity wagon, no matter how right you are, unless you're dead set against town's choice).

Now, I realize that you can argue words till we're both old and wrinkled, but I pushed LUV's wagon as hard as I've ever pushed a wagon. That's what hard means to me. I'm sorry it's not the right wording for you, but didn't I promise you more disappointing wording? I'd hate to disappoint you in every facet of our brief relationship...

[boring]

@boring

I'm like the rest, and find you null. It's unnerving.

How can I help? Do you have questions that I can answer that would help you read me? Do any of my thoughts require clarification?

I'll get back with you on that, if I can. As far as I can tell, your posts have been perfectly neutral. Clean, is the word that comes to mind (not entirely sure why).

[boring]

@Boring - you're only poking at one aspect of his case against you (you saying you hard bussed LUV) but ignoring the rest of the case.

Please respond to the rest of the case (your interactions with and LUV's actions towards you).

I didn't see anything regarding my interactions with LUV that I didn't address. Please point them out, if you feel they were skipped.

As far as LUV's lack of vote on me (is that the "LUV's actions towards you" you are talking about?), fucked if I know. Scum have daytalk. Penguin suggested that LUV is incapable of buddying, but really, it doesn't matter. He's capable of following instructions, right? Do you think he thought up the doc gambit all by his lonesome? Doubtful. Scum team had some reason for coaching LUV's actions (and I do believe there was some coaching beyond the gambit, at the very least, instructions to lie low until the early wave against him passed).

[boring]

@Prism, thank you for understanding, somewhat. Please, do me a favor and give me a tl;dr of the items you feel I've left unaddressed. I'll do my best to go over them one-by-one.

We have plenty of time, so there's no need to rush my lynch. (well, I'd understand PP's urgency, but most of the rest of you can afford the time).

[boring]

He's capable of following instructions, right? Do you think he thought up the doc gambit all by his lonesome?

In my experience with him. No, and No. He would need message-crafting level coaching to buddy someone; not just guidance to buddy.

You'll have to forgive me if I don't take your word for it. Regardless, I can't be the only person he buddied.

You're starting to get a little flippant in your posting, which I appreciate - if you were town.

This comment worries me. I know this is an argument being used by someone(s) to townread you. Your attempt to apply it to me feels ham-handed. It's as if you're trying to reinforce this perception of you, rather than determine my alignment.

Grendel's latest post reinforces my read on you, btw.

Please elaborate.

[boring]

"worries" is the wrong word. I'm past worried. "Irks"? "Helps supports my scum read"? Helps support my scum read.

[boring]

This comment worries me. I know this is an argument being used by someone(s) to townread you. Your attempt to apply it to me feels ham-handed. It's as if you're trying to reinforce this perception of you, rather than determine my alignment.

I'm me, and you're you. I've been flippant since my first post in this thread. You haven't been, so the change is noteworthy to me.

Still clumsy. First, I've not been flippant at all. Second, who is deliberately flippant the point that they would choose describe themselves as such?

Please elaborate.

Um...I think he's second scum and he town reads you. That furthers my read on you. How is that difficult to understand?

Straws, boring. Grab at them.[/quote] Not difficult to understand, I just wanted you to spell it out.

You are scum reading us both, and at least one other player is doing (Dier, I think) the same. Don't you think one of us would have simply pretended to buy into one of the not-so-spectacular theories running around as an excuse to distance?

[boring]

@prism - I don't remember if you've been asked this already. I get that you're all gungho on the boring wagon today, but how are you feeling about PP? If I was off the table, how willing are you to lynch him?

[boring]

Wow, you guys have had a busy day (or so) Here is some quick input:

1) It appears that people are using their claim list as a scum-to-town reads list, in which case, here's mine: Penguin, Shadow (already claimed), Dierfire, nn30/Grendel, Prism, Implosion/Zoronos (already claimed).

2) Penguin is still atop my list, but Grendel's argument on Shadow made a lot of sense to me. I don't feel like he's made any positive contributions to the game overall, which is a telling thing in the long run. I'd still prefer a Penguin lynch today, but I think I'd be willing to vote Shadow, if it comes down to that.

3) I really don't understand the pushes on Grendel or nn30 (nor my own for that matter, but I've been scum-read from go). Neither of them are the tippy top of my town list, but I can't see myself voting either of them today (barring something substantially scummy occurring to implicate them, of course).

[boring]

@PenguinPower

You'll have to forgive me if I don't take your word for it. Regardless, I can't be the only person he buddied.

You actually seem to be, on his ISO read. At least, the only one I was able to discern. Please feel free to find another.

I'm surprised that boring didn't answer this, but I can find one--me! I've included several quotes below.

Spoiler: Quotes

I am pretty wary of Penguin, especially after how hypocritical he's been about Grendal's RQS. That alone though isn't a strong enough for me to jump on this wagon although I agree with a lot of what Diefire presented.

Diefire - I liked every single one of his observations he's made so far and agree with almost all of them except the likelihood of Gamma and PP being a team. I'm not saying it's not a possibility, I just don't try to look for teams early on in the game and I like to focus on one person at a time once I feel 90% sure they're scum.

Why Dierfire? To me, he's trying really hard to sort out who he feels is suspicious and none of the cases he presented so far have read like scum trying to push a mislynch.

Anyway, I protected Dierfire Night 1. He was one of my strongest town reads and I thought scum would be threatened by the observations he made.

Thank you. I've had limited free-time lately, so I hadn't gotten around to looking yet.

[boring]

@nn30

My case on Penguin as presented today

Spoiler:

Honestly, Penguin, your push on nn30 is part of what's making me drag my feet on him. Sure, you hammered LUV, but that was after the gambit, when it was clear he was getting lynched anyway. In fact, I'm more than a little surprised that Zoronos wasn't more suspicious of you, based on the votes, than Grendel.

First, you went after Gamma. Then, when he was revealed as cop, you went after Zoronos. LUV continued to get pressure, but you didn't vote him. I think it's very conceivable that the scum team told him to gambit to flush out any protectors. Then, when he got to L-1 again, and the gambit got its results, you hammered with little warning, to cut off further discussion.

VOTE: Penguin

He's capable of following instructions, right? Do you think he thought up the doc gambit all by his lonesome?

In my experience with him. No, and No. He would need message-crafting level coaching to buddy someone; not just guidance to buddy.

You'll have to forgive me if I don't take your word for it. Regardless, I can't be the only person he buddied.

You're starting to get a little flippant in your posting, which I appreciate - if you were town.

This comment worries me. I know this is an argument being used by someone(s) to townread you. Your attempt to apply it to me feels ham-handed. It's as if you're trying to reinforce this perception of you, rather than determine my alignment.

"worries" is the wrong word. I'm past worried. "Irks"? "Helps supports my scum read"? Helps support my scum read.

This comment worries me. I know this is an argument being used by someone(s) to townread you. Your attempt to apply it to me feels ham-handed. It's as if you're trying to reinforce this perception of you, rather than determine my alignment.

I'm me, and you're you. I've been flippant since my first post in this thread. You haven't been, so the change is noteworthy to me.

Still clumsy. First, I've not been flippant at all. Second, who is deliberately flippant the point that they would choose describe themselves as such?

My arguments against Penguin on previous days:

Spoiler:

However, I'm enjoying the irony of PP bucking your analysis when he's going after LUV for his. Not that I'm not fond of LUV right now, either.

So. Many. Pronouns.

I don't know how to respond since it could mean to entirely different things.

What I mean is this: You're scumreading LUV for the answers he gave to Grendel's questions. You're being scumread by Grendel for the answers you gave to the same questions. You're unhappy with Grendel's interpretation of your answers. While I sympathize with your frustration, I find the situation mildly humorous.

Further, I find both you and LUV worth some scrutiny, but that I'm dissatisfied with both your and Grendel's decisions to base scum reads off Grendel's "RQS".

Gamma is acting exactly like he did in our last game. I tunnelled him for it because he's easy to mislynch. I'm also doubting my scum read on Zoronos. He's just barrelled on without a single adjustment to his behavior. It's not something I'd expect from someone I'm scum-reading for being fake. They're each either cleverer at playing scum than I'm willing to entertain at the moment, or they're not scum.

UNVOTE:

Join me on Penguin please.

He nicely ignored my question.

I don't think your question was terribly interrogative, so that's not a super good reason. The vote on gamma makes no sense though.

@Gamma, I don't think you're too widely town read, so it's not like PP's going against the flow. It seems more like he's testing it.

VOTE: PenguinPower

PenguinPower - Bad votes, reactions lack a feeling of authenticity, posts lacking substance, and dismissive in a way that I only see with scum.

Penguin has seemed scummy pretty much the whole game. I don't think he's ever breached null with me, and I do seriously question why people would think he's town. He's so incredibly opportunistic, and he only seems to pick very safe targets to go after.

With Shadow, it's more complicated. He's said a couple things here and there that have pinged me. For example, rereading the fake-claim situation over N2. These posts weren't far apart, but I find that there's a lot wrong with them.

I want to lock LUV into a claim, I think he is also scum.

If his intent to hammer was designed to lock LUV into a claim, why would he immediately believe it?

Brilliant, all the lynch baits got all the good PRs :/

If our most easily mislynched players were in a position to be conf. town, that's an enormous stroke of good luck. This comment reads to me like one of frustration, which makes me question whether it's a scum slip.

His big picture too, has struck me as possibly anti-town. Meaning, he's not made an ounce of positive contribution, in the long run.

Then there's Grendel's argument, which made a lot of sense. I get the impression that not everyone took the time to read it. So here it is again:

Spoiler:

The connection of the second Ascetic being a role blocker:

1) I hate to admit it, but Zoronos is right about scum being way to confidant to go after Gamma without a means to negate his power.

2) If there were two roles capable of negating night actions, the mod would have to decide which gets priority; giving the scum rb an aesthetic modifier solves this issue.

3) With Shadow being an ascetic it makes more sense for him to be a role blocker because his modifier with allow him to bypass Zoronos's blocking ablities.

4) All things considered from a set up perspective, town and mafia having one ascetic makes more sense than town getting two ascetics, while scum also gets something to counter town protectives. Unless we have another 3+ town power, (lol), then this isn't an incredibility anti-town set up.

I won’t remove a strong man from the table, but given that Shadow is arguing that instead of a role blocker is giving me bad vibes. Especially now that I have had this realization regarding Shadow.

I guess I should address the elephant in the room first. The reason why everybody has a mutual town read on Shadow: his counter claim. Heck, even I thought it was a pretty town motivated thing to do, cc another unlikely role in the only makes sense. The thing is though that I have witnessed enough games to recognizing risky D1 scum gambits. They go hard and long D1, until everybody is convinced that there is no way the slot could be scum. Then once cleared by the other players they lurk until the late game. Compare this to shadow’s activity this game. 166 posts D1. 35 posts D2. 15 posts so far today. He becomes significantly less aggressive with his pushes going into the second day, and many of his opinions are not memorable. As in looking over his iso, I’m seeing things I never really noticed before.

Some things I noticed going through his isolated posts:
[spoiler=]

VOTE: LUV

This is a scum PR we need to get riD of ASAP.

Looks like LUV has been advised to play dumb and play newb like.
Needs death.

-Shadow had started out D1 with a vote on LUV, and then proceeds to distance him until he comes to the conclusion that LUV null. Looks like scum pretending to sort scum.

N30 has been obv town since the start of this.

The fact gamma isn't obv town when I've obv town read him before is worrying

the LUV townreads make me laugh.

I'm gonna look more into a few players that don't need names but with the amount of people I am slowly going like "you can be town" these players are....

If penguin is scum, LUV is town.
I do agree on that town reading LUV is kinda dumb.

- Its common for scum to link their buddies to other players in mutally exclusive relationships. Though I find the order a bit weird.

-With the usage of the scum pt it is not unreasonable that Shadow could have plotted out his counter claim in advance. I believe he is of the ability to organize this as scum. Town reading him for it would be folly.

I'm not lynching anyone but eager today.
If there are two ascetics. This game is bastard.

So I'd rather believe eager is scum than this game is bastard.

- Shadow step calling the game bastard seems like a redirect to get town to blame to mod’s set up choices instead of Shadow once Eager flips scum. It also gives him an excuse to spend the whole day tunneling Eager, and be justified by the outcome regardless what Eager flips. He do say this as town, but it'd be an awfully convenit stance to take as scum sense he can look like aggressive town while not actually being aggressive towards other players. So he gets no back lash for statements like this.

Hmm I got my facts wrong. Eggman and eager were both useless I thought eager got lynched for the cult win.

- Scum slip. A low expections of Eager. As scum Shadow would view him as an easy mislynch. Suggests that Shadow would have been more confidence pushing a cc on Eager then somebody else.

If he thinks I'm scum, I would obviously not consider Eager to be town. Why the hell would I? He then says that Eager could be lying town. Implying he knows eager I town. Lying as town is very risky. Not just in that game. But you can get blacklisted.
LUV treats me as if I am town here.

To be noted

- Shadeow’s read of LUV bounces throughout D1, but ultimately it appears that LUV is a null read for him given how Shadow keeps a suspicion on him without acting on it. It isn’t until this point that he seems legitimately interested in lynching LUV… until he moves over to Gamma.

Brilliant, all the lynch baits got all the good PRs :/

VOTE: Nn

- 2092 Immediately buys that LUV is doctor. I think this could be a last second reprieve to see if LUV can live another day or two.

Someone needs to unvote before luv self hammers.

He will hammer cause he is scum.
Probably going bonkers in his at.

- 2099 & 2102 This reads like damage control. Trying to back away from LUV as fast as he can.

- Shadow spends a lot of time on set up speculation D2…

Lil Uzi Vert, Mafia Goon, was lynched Day 2.

It is now Night 2. Please PM all night actions to me by the deadline, or bold them in your associated private thread.

Deadline: (expired on 2016-10-29 08:44:00)

Only if bastars mod hadn't put 2 town ascetics, had this scum fuck day 1.

- Takes credit for the lynch of somebody he only kept as a scum lean and only pushed whenever Shadow thought LUV said something particularly bad. Usually something directed at Shadow too. Also Shadow is once again painting the mod as the scape goat. Maybe it's just me, but shadow has been evading the responsibility for his actions this game, starting with his fake 1-L vote on Pengiun back in Day 1.

Seeing how the most town thing I had to say about Shadow going into today was his behavior D1 tells me that he has been keeping a low profile since Eager flipped. Also nobody pointing out some of these things means that everybody has written off Shadow as town. Which imo is a big mistake that I too was a part of yesterday. The entire purpose of a powerful D1 scum gambit is to rack up enough town cred to slide into the endgame. This is exactly what Shadow is doing.

You know, I had originally thought that Shadow step was an investigative role given his jump on Gamma at the start of D2 along the lines of “Oh yeah, this is scum btw”. I thought that he was softing a guilty, the same way he did at the start of D1 where he remarked how easy the game will be after Eager’s claim. There was also how much attention Shadow gives Maria D1, and her general feelings were that Gamma wasn’t Ob!town like she was expecting him to be. More reasoning I had down in my notes is that two regular townies modified with straight aesthetics modifiers and nothing else, would be really anti town. So I thought that Shadow should be a cop or some such.

My primary reservations on the Shadow case are, first, if he's scum, he's played one hell of a risky game. Second, I'm prone to serious paranoia sometimes, so I have to question whether I've read too much into these details.

Yes, Shadow, I think it possible for the scum team to be LUV-Penguin-Shadow.

[boring]

1) It appears that people are using their claim list as a scum-to-town reads list, in which case, here's mine: Penguin, Shadow (already claimed), Dierfire, nn30/Grendel, Prism, Implosion/Zoronos (already claimed).

Why am I so high on this given that you thought my points about you were nonsense, and my reads are close to the reverse of yours?

First, I wouldn't describe our reads as reverse. Yours was Grendel, boring, PenguinPower, Dierfire, Shadow, nn30, which reads like scrambled eggs to me.

Second, thinking you're way off base is different from thinking you're scum. Regardless your rank is less a reflection of you, and more a reflection of the game-state. I think Penguin is the most likely scum, followed by Shadow. Close after that is Dier, whose neutral/null play is concerning. Then nn30's and Grendel's ranks are a bit of a concession to the VCA and POE arguments that can't all be generated by scum. Though while the arguments against nn30 are more likely generated by scum than those against Grendel, nn30 worries me a tiny bit, independently. Though, certainly not enough to leap over my already-bursting scum pool. You're next because you've got nothing particularly scummy going on, and you've banked a few towny moves. Implosion and Zoronos are obviously the highest town, as they're confirmed, and unchallenged JK, respectively.

[boring]

I will try to respond to everything I want to respond to later today/this evening.

I just don't want everything to be waiting on me.

I'm VT.

[boring]

Okay, I just skimmed to catch up with the claims.

What are the chances that Penguin is lying about being Deputy?

In the meantime,

UNVOTE:

[boring]

I'd prefer boring right now.
She tries to throw shade on PP without committing to a stance. Asks for town consensus about PP claim.

I saw his claim and unvoted because that what you're supposed to do when people claim. Am I supposed to welcome into the town fold with open arms after the fake doc claim yesterday? He's been scummy all game, just like LUV.

Anyway, it looks like you're throwing shade at me without committing to a stance because you know you're next in my scum-line, and you might as well get ready for an OMGUS. You follow it up by throwing shade at the guy who comes right after you in my read list. Not very subtle.

PP, you didn't actually expect anyone to pick up on that "breadcrumb", did you? By the way, did you spend the whole game with the knowledge that you were Deputy, or were you informed when Gamma was killed?

[boring]

nn30 worries me a tiny bit, independently. You're next because you've got nothing particularly scummy going on, and you've banked a few towny moves.

The reasoning behind these isn't readily obvious to me. Can you explain them more?

You have been off in your own world with your cases and reads, which I think indicates a town motivation. Not only that, but you are clearly shooting in the dark, which also indicates town. I know I'm projecting somewhat, but I think you'd be swim more toward the middle if you were scum.

[boring]

@boring #2571

How does believing a claim make me scum? what is your argument here? I don't get it at all.

I'll try to explain in more detail.

It's not the fact that you believed his claim that is fishy to me. It's that you stated intent to hammer because, and I quote,

I want to lock LUV into a claim, I think he is also scum.

If that was your thinking, your purpose, then why would you take it entirely at face value? It makes the whole thing seem staged, like "okay little buddy, time for you to claim now"...

The next quote I mentioned, aside from indicating your belief, added what looked like a slip.

Brilliant, all the lynch baits got all the good PRs :/

Because again, why is this a thing worthy of " :/ "? If all the "lynch baits" can be established as conf. town, that's good news. That is, unless your "scum hunt" is just a hunt for easy mislynches.

p-edit: I'll look through your interactions with Gamma around the claim, and see if it looks congruent with the deputy claim. Were you offered a read last night, since Gamma died, or is it supposed to start tonight?

[boring]

PP, your reaction to Gamma's claim looks pretty kosher, but why did you wait 4 days after his claim to leave your breadcrumb? Why not leave it sooner/immediately?

[boring]

I don't get why a scum! Grendel would kill Maria n1. LUV was just a goon, killing off someone who TRs you is sub optimal play.

This is another good wrinkle to consider. I'd like to hear more people's thoughts on it, especially Zoronos.

I don't see why it would be sub-optimal. It points away from you, clears the person town-reading you, and then you just have to wait for someone to dig it up on your behalf (can be town or a buddy). It's a lot smarter than leaving a big, messy bloodtrail.

I'm not convinced that this is something Grendel would do or has done. It's just that if S_s could conclude at first that MariaR's NK could be used to frame me, I don't understand why he can't see this.

p-edit: Zoronos - space ninja, scourge of the seven seas!

[boring]

You have played a lot of game as scum. Have you killed people town reading you on the first chance you got ?

Yes. First two chances, actually, if you include the D1 lynch. viewtopic.php?f=50&t=67031

[boring]

@Boring - what do you think of Dier right now?

If Penguin is really just town with a scummy playstyle, then Shadow and Dier are next in my lineup.

Dier is my #2 scum read at the moment, and I think it's possible for them to be the two remaining scum. I'm lacking time to dig, but I can't recall them really having much, if anything to do with one another. Certainly nothing worth writing off the possibility of a scum team. So while I'd rather lynch Shadow first, I could vote Dierfire.

Spoiler:

inB4 Shadow realizes Dierfire might actually get lynched, and makes an excuse to hop off the wagon.

Speaking of which,
VOTE: Shadow_step

-I don't get most people's reaction to Grendel, the past few pages of his are all over the place and it reads as trying to dodge autoloss at any cost.

I'm not seeing it. When you have more time, can you explain what you mean?

[boring]

Shadowstep and Dier over Grendel?

I am going to speculate that this means you think Grendel is town?

I think Grendel's more likely town than either of them. If Penguin is out of the pool, then my scum list is Shadow>Dier>Grendel>nn30>Prism

[boring]

Actually, I think nn30 and Prism could switch places. I keep going back and forth.

[boring]

Shadowstep and Dier over Grendel?

I am going to speculate that this means you think Grendel is town?

I think Grendel's more likely town than either of them. If Penguin is out of the pool, then my scum list is Shadow>Dier>Grendel>nn30>Prism

Actually, I think nn30 and Prism could switch places. I keep going back and forth.

Shadow>Dier>Grendel>nn30=Prism

Sorry for the spammy posts.

[boring]

Speaking of which,
VOTE: Shadow_step

Do you actually think there's any chance shadow will be lynched today, at this point?
If no, why vote him?
If yes, how?

I'm not sure yet if there's a chance of lynching Shadow today. We have five days left, and a lot can happen in that time.

@Grendel.. 48 is half of 96...

[boring]

I'm waiting for that case on me.

It's been made.

Spoiler:

With Shadow, it's more complicated. He's said a couple things here and there that have pinged me. For example, rereading the fake-claim situation over N2. These posts weren't far apart, but I find that there's a lot wrong with them.

I want to lock LUV into a claim, I think he is also scum.

If his intent to hammer was designed to lock LUV into a claim, why would he immediately believe it?

Brilliant, all the lynch baits got all the good PRs :/

If our most easily mislynched players were in a position to be conf. town, that's an enormous stroke of good luck. This comment reads to me like one of frustration, which makes me question whether it's a scum slip.

His big picture too, has struck me as possibly anti-town. Meaning, he's not made an ounce of positive contribution, in the long run.

Then there's Grendel's argument, which made a lot of sense. I get the impression that not everyone took the time to read it. So here it is again:
[edited out and added in the next spoiler because of weird formatting issues]

My primary reservations on the Shadow case are, first, if he's scum, he's played one hell of a risky game. Second, I'm prone to serious paranoia sometimes, so I have to question whether I've read too much into these details.

Yes, Shadow, I think it possible for the scum team to be LUV-Penguin-Shadow.

I'd prefer boring right now.
She tries to throw shade on PP without committing to a stance. Asks for town consensus about PP claim.

I saw his claim and unvoted because that what you're supposed to do when people claim. Am I supposed to welcome into the town fold with open arms after the fake doc claim yesterday? He's been scummy all game, just like LUV.

Anyway, it looks like you're throwing shade at me without committing to a stance because you know you're next in my scum-line, and you might as well get ready for an OMGUS. You follow it up by throwing shade at the guy who comes right after you in my read list. Not very subtle.

PP, you didn't actually expect anyone to pick up on that "breadcrumb", did you? By the way, did you spend the whole game with the knowledge that you were Deputy, or were you informed when Gamma was killed?

@boring #2571

How does believing a claim make me scum? what is your argument here? I don't get it at all.

I'll try to explain in more detail.

It's not the fact that you believed his claim that is fishy to me. It's that you stated intent to hammer because, and I quote,

I want to lock LUV into a claim, I think he is also scum.

If that was your thinking, your purpose, then why would you take it entirely at face value? It makes the whole thing seem staged, like "okay little buddy, time for you to claim now"...

The next quote I mentioned, aside from indicating your belief, added what looked like a slip.

Brilliant, all the lynch baits got all the good PRs :/

Because again, why is this a thing worthy of " :/ "? If all the "lynch baits" can be established as conf. town, that's good news. That is, unless your "scum hunt" is just a hunt for easy mislynches.

p-edit: I'll look through your interactions with Gamma around the claim, and see if it looks congruent with the deputy claim. Were you offered a read last night, since Gamma died, or is it supposed to start tonight?

I don't get why a scum! Grendel would kill Maria n1. LUV was just a goon, killing off someone who TRs you is sub optimal play.

This is another good wrinkle to consider. I'd like to hear more people's thoughts on it, especially Zoronos.

I don't see why it would be sub-optimal. It points away from you, clears the person town-reading you, and then you just have to wait for someone to dig it up on your behalf (can be town or a buddy). It's a lot smarter than leaving a big, messy bloodtrail.

I'm not convinced that this is something Grendel would do or has done. It's just that if S_s could conclude at first that MariaR's NK could be used to frame me, I don't understand why he can't see this.

Spoiler:

The connection of the second Ascetic being a role blocker:

1) I hate to admit it, but Zoronos is right about scum being way to confidant to go after Gamma without a means to negate his power.

2) If there were two roles capable of negating night actions, the mod would have to decide which gets priority; giving the scum rb an aesthetic modifier solves this issue.

3) With Shadow being an ascetic it makes more sense for him to be a role blocker because his modifier with allow him to bypass Zoronos's blocking ablities.

4) All things considered from a set up perspective, town and mafia having one ascetic makes more sense than town getting two ascetics, while scum also gets something to counter town protectives. Unless we have another 3+ town power, (lol), then this isn't an incredibility anti-town set up.

I won’t remove a strong man from the table, but given that Shadow is arguing that instead of a role blocker is giving me bad vibes. Especially now that I have had this realization regarding Shadow.

I guess I should address the elephant in the room first. The reason why everybody has a mutual town read on Shadow: his counter claim. Heck, even I thought it was a pretty town motivated thing to do, cc another unlikely role in the only makes sense. The thing is though that I have witnessed enough games to recognizing risky D1 scum gambits. They go hard and long D1, until everybody is convinced that there is no way the slot could be scum. Then once cleared by the other players they lurk until the late game. Compare this to shadow’s activity this game. 166 posts D1. 35 posts D2. 15 posts so far today. He becomes significantly less aggressive with his pushes going into the second day, and many of his opinions are not memorable. As in looking over his iso, I’m seeing things I never really noticed before.

Some things I noticed going through his isolated posts:
[spoiler=]

VOTE: LUV

This is a scum PR we need to get riD of ASAP.

Looks like LUV has been advised to play dumb and play newb like.
Needs death.

-Shadow had started out D1 with a vote on LUV, and then proceeds to distance him until he comes to the conclusion that LUV null. Looks like scum pretending to sort scum.

N30 has been obv town since the start of this.

The fact gamma isn't obv town when I've obv town read him before is worrying

the LUV townreads make me laugh.

I'm gonna look more into a few players that don't need names but with the amount of people I am slowly going like "you can be town" these players are....

If penguin is scum, LUV is town.
I do agree on that town reading LUV is kinda dumb.

- Its common for scum to link their buddies to other players in mutally exclusive relationships. Though I find the order a bit weird.

-With the usage of the scum pt it is not unreasonable that Shadow could have plotted out his counter claim in advance. I believe he is of the ability to organize this as scum. Town reading him for it would be folly.

I'm not lynching anyone but eager today.
If there are two ascetics. This game is bastard.

So I'd rather believe eager is scum than this game is bastard.

- Shadow step calling the game bastard seems like a redirect to get town to blame to mod’s set up choices instead of Shadow once Eager flips scum. It also gives him an excuse to spend the whole day tunneling Eager, and be justified by the outcome regardless what Eager flips. He do say this as town, but it'd be an awfully convenit stance to take as scum sense he can look like aggressive town while not actually being aggressive towards other players. So he gets no back lash for statements like this.

Hmm I got my facts wrong. Eggman and eager were both useless I thought eager got lynched for the cult win.

- Scum slip. A low expections of Eager. As scum Shadow would view him as an easy mislynch. Suggests that Shadow would have been more confidence pushing a cc on Eager then somebody else.

If he thinks I'm scum, I would obviously not consider Eager to be town. Why the hell would I? He then says that Eager could be lying town. Implying he knows eager I town. Lying as town is very risky. Not just in that game. But you can get blacklisted.
LUV treats me as if I am town here.

To be noted

- Shadeow’s read of LUV bounces throughout D1, but ultimately it appears that LUV is a null read for him given how Shadow keeps a suspicion on him without acting on it. It isn’t until this point that he seems legitimately interested in lynching LUV… until he moves over to Gamma.

Brilliant, all the lynch baits got all the good PRs :/

VOTE: Nn

- 2092 Immediately buys that LUV is doctor. I think this could be a last second reprieve to see if LUV can live another day or two.

Someone needs to unvote before luv self hammers.

He will hammer cause he is scum.
Probably going bonkers in his at.

- 2099 & 2102 This reads like damage control. Trying to back away from LUV as fast as he can.

- Shadow spends a lot of time on set up speculation D2…

Lil Uzi Vert, Mafia Goon, was lynched Day 2.

It is now Night 2. Please PM all night actions to me by the deadline, or bold them in your associated private thread.

Deadline: (expired on 2016-10-29 08:44:00)

Only if bastars mod hadn't put 2 town ascetics, had this scum fuck day 1.

- Takes credit for the lynch of somebody he only kept as a scum lean and only pushed whenever Shadow thought LUV said something particularly bad. Usually something directed at Shadow too. Also Shadow is once again painting the mod as the scape goat. Maybe it's just me, but shadow has been evading the responsibility for his actions this game, starting with his fake 1-L vote on Pengiun back in Day 1.

Seeing how the most town thing I had to say about Shadow going into today was his behavior D1 tells me that he has been keeping a low profile since Eager flipped. Also nobody pointing out some of these things means that everybody has written off Shadow as town. Which imo is a big mistake that I too was a part of yesterday. The entire purpose of a powerful D1 scum gambit is to rack up enough town cred to slide into the endgame. This is exactly what Shadow is doing.

You know, I had originally thought that Shadow step was an investigative role given his jump on Gamma at the start of D2 along the lines of “Oh yeah, this is scum btw”. I thought that he was softing a guilty, the same way he did at the start of D1 where he remarked how easy the game will be after Eager’s claim. There was also how much attention Shadow gives Maria D1, and her general feelings were that Gamma wasn’t Ob!town like she was expecting him to be. More reasoning I had down in my notes is that two regular townies modified with straight aesthetics modifiers and nothing else, would be really anti town. So I thought that Shadow should be a cop or some such.

Tl;dr - The huge benefit of the doubt you earned with the ballsy D1 move and bold demeanor has been sanded away by shady posts, a questionable activity pattern, and the fact that you've had zero pro-town influence.

[boring]

I've responded to the first part which you never replied to.

If I'm an ascetic RB, this setup is ridiculously scum sided, so that whole argument is balls.

Next

What are you even talking about? The first part includes responses.
Why do you really think If I'm an ascetic RB, this setup is ridiculously scum sided is relevant to anything I've said? I don't think you're necessarily ascetic or RB. I just think you're scum.

[boring]

@Boring - I'll add something to that as well.

I can't find the article on the wiki, but basically there was a theory article that suggested that scum like to find a tunnel and stick with it for the day.

It's safe to say that Shadow has been tunneling me 1) all day and 2) with dubious reasonings. I feel like I could have 1) done anything or 2) not done that very same thing and Shadow would scum read it either way. The dubious reasons for tunneling me suggest that his mind is immune to being changed, regardless of logic. His goal is to distract and put on a show, which he's done.

Tunneling you for dubious reasoning? Seriously!
VCA is dubious ?
POE is dubious?
You voting me day 1 which is dripping with scum motivation is dubious?

I swear if you misrep and lie one more time I will fucking tunnel you to the ground.

No you won't. You've not even bothered to tunnel the person you're voting right now. You're just trying to threaten and dismiss those who are on to you, in the hopes that they'll shy away.

[boring]

What the hell are you on about in 2689 I have no idea.

Your response to it here

Spoiler:

I don't get why a scum! Grendel would kill Maria n1. LUV was just a goon, killing off someone who TRs you is sub optimal play.

This is another good wrinkle to consider. I'd like to hear more people's thoughts on it, especially Zoronos.

I don't see why it would be sub-optimal. It points away from you, clears the person town-reading you, and then you just have to wait for someone to dig it up on your behalf (can be town or a buddy). It's a lot smarter than leaving a big, messy bloodtrail.

I'm not convinced that this is something Grendel would do or has done. It's just that if S_s could conclude at first that MariaR's NK could be used to frame me, I don't understand why he can't see this.

p-edit: Zoronos - space ninja, scourge of the seven seas!

You are reading something else, interpreting something else, posting something else. Did you understand what I said?
You have played a lot of game as scum. Have you killed people town reading you on the first chance you got ?

suggests you understood perfectly.
And I replied in a timely manner.

Spoiler:

You have played a lot of game as scum. Have you killed people town reading you on the first chance you got ?

Yes. First two chances, actually, if you include the D1 lynch. viewtopic.php?f=50&t=67031

Nice try, though.

2667 one which was conveniently ignored

Actually, it looks like I missed the entire second half of that page (around post #2656-#2674). That actually explains a lot (I couldn't figure out when Grendel had voted Dier).

That post contains nothing worth responding to, however. You're just spinning there. More to the point, I'm not endeavoring to prove to you that you're scum. You can state your defense to cases as you wish, and I'll reply to you when I think it's relevant (or when you ask a question), but you're neither my director nor my audience.

[boring]

I clearly asked you if you understood what I said because I didn't get what the hell you were talking about and I still don't.
I was saying why a scum Grendel wouldn't kill Maria n1 itself. Who is the "you" you are referring to idk.

I was narrating the scenario in the second person. In the second person, I explained why someone would theoretically kill someone strongly townreading them N1, and why it is far from "sub optimal play". My purpose of the post, again, was not particularly for you, but to point out to everyone else that you were being inconsistent in the depth of thought you were presenting.

You said it was a slip. I explained how it wasn't. So again, how does me believing his claim make me scum?
Actually if I was his buddy I would know its fake and it would warranty the complete opposite reaction if anything.

I don't find your explanation plausible, and I disagree. Sorry, not sorry.

[boring]

I've responded to the first part which you never replied to.

If I'm an ascetic RB, this setup is ridiculously scum sided, so that whole argument is balls.

Next

What are you even talking about? The first part includes responses.
Why do you really think If I'm an ascetic RB, this setup is ridiculously scum sided is relevant to anything I've said? I don't think you're necessarily ascetic or RB. I just think you're scum.

I can't even be ascetic mafia goon, too scumsided.
So let me get this straight. You're case against me is that I CCed Eager a useless role at night(according to threat to mafia) by a role I didn't have ?
So apparently I can get fucked any night if someone bothers to check me.
Yeah okay. Brilliant case. You want a scummy?

Just say "yes this is my case" for my sanity.

Anyone scum reading me should consider this.
It's impossible for me to be mafia ascetic anything because of the minimal amount of power town has and ascetic can counter both.

Brilliant straw man.

I'm going to stop engaging with you for a while, for everyone else's sanity.

[boring]

Hi we're murdering Dierfire or Grendel.
Preferably Grendel.

Shadow_step is aggravating, annoying, and generally useless as shit, but he's not on the plate today. We all know your point on him, save it for tomorrow or later.
Getting into this shit with him is helping nobody. Yes, he's belligerent and unhelpful. The rest of us know those are scum tells. He's still likely town for the movement, so let us collectively move on.

As I've said before, I'm willing to vote Dierfire if we can't lynch Shadow today. If you're willing to vote Dierfire too, then I guess we'll have our five.

Is anyone of a mind to put up a defense for Dierfire?

[boring]

Intent to hammer Dierfire

Zoronos and Penguin, let me know when you're ready. We still have like 4 days left, and I don't want to cut you guys off early since one of you may not be here tomorrow. Also, I assume we need to give Dierfire a chance to say what he needs to say.

[boring]

Whelp.

Now he's dead before he even got to defend himself.

May I direct you to the most recent vote count?

Suggestions on who everyone thinks I should investigate - should I not die - would be nice. Probably won't listen, but info is always good.

Grendel, me, Prism, or nn30. We're all vulnerable to mislynch without a clear.

[boring]

My intent to hammer stands. I can't stop anyone else from hammering sooner, but I can't think of any good reason for not letting people sort out their affairs.

General question.

Would who you lynch next according to what Dier had flipped?

Like if he flipped mafia then x would be the next to go,

or if he flipped town then y would be the next to go.

Dier's played very carefully, and has no obvious associations. It's one of the reasons I think he's a likely scum. LUV was the closest association thus far, and will be irrelevant after the flip. I don't think his flip will point anywhere in particular, which will leave us in the same position tomorrow as far as the scum-hunt goes.

That's why I hope PP can get us a clear from among the potential mislynches. If it's a guilty, all the better, but one more clear will guarantee that a conf!town is present in LYLO, which will be vital. I think it's wasted on Zoro.

[boring]

Yeah, no. I want to hear any last arguments from Dierfire, as well as confirmation that Zoronos and Penguin are ready before I hammer. We have time.

[boring]

Okay, I'm super thrilled about this Grendel wagon. I certainly don't see why he's so high on everyone's scum list. I'm not holding him up as "for sure town", but why is he the top scum read?!

Anyone voting him, please give me a tl;dr, or point me to posts that you think are the most succinct arguments for his lynch.

[boring]

2/3 of the people I'm confident in want Grendel, hence my vote.

Confirmed town are just as likely to be wrong as unconfirmed. The only difference is that you know their opinion is genuine. Do you have independent reasons for believing that he's likely to be scum? If so, what are they?