Mini Normal 1839 - Game Over!

[Saru]

Can you go more into transition on karnos is def scum to not liking Thor for his push?

Sure.

Initially I felt Karnos was scum because of what he said about sharing town reads, which felt like an excuse to just not give town reads at all, and then he also said he didn't have any particular scum reads either. So it mainly felt he was just making excuses for not wanting to do anything. It got even worse when he revealed that he read Iron as town and was therefore willing to vote with Iron, which seemed to go against his stated views and exception to those views.

But then Thor came in and he started to make similar or pretty much the same arguments that I was getting at, which made me feel a bit paranoid that he was buddying me or taking advantage. Karnos pointed out this possibility:

There is also a fair chance that between you and Saru one is actually town just being taken advantage of by the scum, but I'm fairly confident that at least one of you is scum

And ever since then I've been somewhat paranoid about Thor. Notice how I don't really push Karnos after that. Usually my arguments are pretty emotional/bad as town, so when I see people agreeing with me, that worries me. It happened with Math buddying me onto Dierfire in 1800.

And basically, now, Thor is just harping on Karnos without much thought about anyone/anything else in the game. His ISO is basically all Karnos. Upon re-read, I don't think the arguments Thor and I were pushing were really all that great, and for him to be so gung-ho about it is strange. Like, yes, Karnos might have contradicted himself, but I don't really see it being the end all reason to call Karnos scum, as Thor does.

Also, just noticed: Thor said in 387 that the argument between Karnos and I was essentially white noise, so then why is Thor contributing to that white noise immediately afterwards? It doesn't add up.

[PenguinPower]

So...given what Saru pointed out above, I'm a little wary of Thor now. He buddied me hard in Newbie 1725 when he was scum, and I've been wary of buddying ever since. n=1, I know...but it's off-putting.

[Foxbird]

Votecount 1.22

AlpacaAlpaca

(1) - malpascp

karnos

(1) - Thor665

Fire Assassin

(3) - LmkGuy, aronagrundy, Lowell

LmkGuy

(1) - AlpacaAlpaca

Saru

(5) - GreyICE, Fire Assassin, karnos, ironstove, PenguinPower

(L-2!)

ironstove

(1) - Nero Cain

Thor665

(1) - Saru

Not Voting

(0) - No one!

With

13

players eligible to vote, it’s

7

to lynch!

Day 1 will end in

(expired on 2016-10-24 15:25:42).

Mod Notes:

malpascp is V/LA until the 25th of October.
aronagrundy is V/LA until the 23rd of October.
Thor665 is V/LA until the 23rd of October.

[Saru]

lol it's the weekend and we have less than 2 days left and 3 people are V/LA. It ain't looking good for me.

rip

[malpascp]

Vote: Thor

[ironstove]

mod, can we freeze the time or have an extension? It seems that about a 4th of the player pool is AFK and not participating.

[Lowell]

VOTE: saru

I don't know how we got here, but fine. There's about three or four others I'd rather lynch but I'm not nolynching to protect a null lurker read.

[Saru]

I believe in the Saru wagon. This one came together astonishingly fast. That's scary.

I wonder what Grey has to say about how fast my wagon built up. Even faster than Knight's. How scared are you now, Grey? Or is it only Knight's wagon that "scared" you?

Also, lol @ Lowell calling me a lurker. He has fewer posts than some replacements. Probably scum.

I'm a VT.

[Fire Assassin]

I am interested to see what happens here instead:

VOTE: Thor

[ironstove]

I'm down to switch to thor. Can we get a thor wagon going before EOD? Guys?

[ironstove]

VOTE: Thor

[ironstove]

Need 3 more to hammer. About 36 hours left. Come on boys, let's make this happen.

[Foxbird]

After discussing the matter with the listmod and some other relevant people, I have decided to extend the deadline by 36 hours. This should allow most people to come back and/or properly catch up.

The new deadline is in (expired on 2016-10-26 03:25:36).

[GreyICE]

I'm happy how fast Saru's wagon came together because I want to lynch him. Is a VT claim seriously dissuading FA? After I said scum always claim PR? I'd rather just lynch FA frankly, after that pathetic showing.

But no. Saru dies.

[Nero Cain]

So scum is voting Thor. Does this mean Saru is a scumbuddy or he's voting off the wagon to manipulate us onto the Saru wagon?

[Nero Cain]

vote:Mal

since we have a extension

[Thor665]

Town: Iron, Grey, Nero,
Lean Town: Alpaca
Null: LmK, Penguin,

Thor665

, malpascp
Scum lean:

You [Karnos]

, Lowell
Scum:

Saru

, arundy

Could you explain how these three reads interact?

I'm almost 100% on Thor being scum here. His push on Karnos is all kinds of bad, and I don't see how he doesn't see it.

Well, you said I was utterly copying you, so this already feels awkward - but what is bad about it?
I see you citing you were emotional, but I'll note that a lot of your emotional gak I expressly didn't cite as scummy.
What I cited as scummy, is scummy. How is it not?

Ugh...I hate agreeing with Iron and I feel icky voting with karnos.

VOTE: Saru

Then...don't?

Also, just noticed: Thor said in 387 that the argument between Karnos and I was essentially white noise, so then why is Thor contributing to that white noise immediately afterwards? It doesn't add up.

Read that post more closely, bucko.

You'll note that I ask you to drop your emotionally charged things and *focus on what Karnos is doing that is actually scummy*.
In other words, I was saying calm down, drop the noise, and focus on the good stuff.

Yeah, how hypocritical of me to then attack Karnos afterwards...

@Thor: your wagon consists of you yelling at Karnos over meaningless crap until he inevitably contradicts himself and then calling him a hypocrite. Wow, you can out-debate Karnos. That's very meaningful.

Your timeline is off there - He contradicted himself prior to me engaging him in a debate.
What was meaningless that I attacked hi/yelled at him over?

Why would I sheep your vote, especially when you stole all your arguments from Saru~

Just like with Saru - I would happily ask you to back up this claim.
It's not true.
If one/both of you would promise to sheep me - I'd happily disprove it for you.

But seriously, what's scummy there?

The scumminess is his vote - he doesn't actually claim to scumread my slot, yet when questioned on an opportunistic vote move outs a town read (an action he describes as anti-town) to justify his actions. So he's opportunistic, and playing how he claims bad town play to justify the opportunism - and his defense for this is that revealing town reads is now only bad in his theory of play if you reveal "all" of yourtown reads - yet if you read why he says doing this is bad, it's blatantly obvious that has nothing to do with why he thinks the play is bad -which makes it a lie, which makes his vote opportunistic scum pushing an easy slot.

How do you see none of that as as scummy?

@Karnos - you're selling, I'm not buying.

I wouldn't expect anyalignment!Thor to be convinced by anything I post, so this isn't shocking.

Fixed.
Basically you're complaining that I disagree while not addressing my disagreements.

{Thor, Saru, Nero} Are the scum, but please lynch Thor first, his flip is the basis for where I am drawing the majority of my associations.

So basically I'm scum because (?) and two people I have indicated are town are scum because I indicated they are town.
Also I'm only talking about Karnos - but you're able to associate me with other players, including Nero who isn't even in the Karnos discussion.
I'm missing something here, right? What is it?

[Foxbird]

LmkGuy has been prodded.

[Fire Assassin]

I'm happy how fast Saru's wagon came together because I want to lynch him. Is a VT claim seriously dissuading FA? After I said scum always claim PR? I'd rather just lynch FA frankly, after that pathetic showing.

But no. Saru dies.

It really wasn't his role claim that is dissuading me. I am more interested right now in a Thor wagon lynch than Saru.

[Fire Assassin]

Could you explain how these three reads interact?

You are a null read since I haven't really read you to get an idea on where you stand.
Saru was scum because I didn't think he was game solving and his style was different than a previous town game of his. Now just a scum lean.
Karnos was leaning scum because of a few bad posts. As of recent events he is back to null.

[Fire Assassin]

VOTE: malp

[Thor665]

Could you explain how these three reads interact?

You are a null read since I haven't really read you to get an idea on where you stand.
Saru was scum because I didn't think he was game solving and his style was different than a previous town game of his. Now just a scum lean.
Karnos was leaning scum because of a few bad posts. As of recent events he is back to null.

Do you expect any of your reads to semi-solidify at any point, and if so when?

[Fire Assassin]

Could you explain how these three reads interact?

You are a null read since I haven't really read you to get an idea on where you stand.
Saru was scum because I didn't think he was game solving and his style was different than a previous town game of his. Now just a scum lean.
Karnos was leaning scum because of a few bad posts. As of recent events he is back to null.

Do you expect any of your reads to semi-solidify at any point, and if so when?

Not really.
I expect my reads to move around between null and scum quite a bit.

Those who earn a spot in my townreads are unlikely to ever move though. They are likely going to be a townread for me the whole game.

[Thor665]

I agree with you on Nero town.
I think a Grey town read is rather foolhardy, though I have no issue with treating him like town for the current moment.
Can you explain why Iro is a town read for you? I find his interactions with me as regards Tracer to be really questionable on multiple levels - why did you like all of that?

[Foxbird]

T'is I, your trusty mod, taking a break from doing Art™ to bump!