Mini Normal #1838 - Game Over

[Prism]

Case on LUV is mainly laid out #1686 and #1689.

a) I have been pretty clear I think Implosion is likely-scum. I just can't seem to get anyone else to agree with that point, or if they do they hand wring about it.

This is completely false. I literally spent the entire last half of Day 1 trying to get a vote on Implosion, including multiple posts at the end of the day asking for an open call for an Implosion bandwagon. You responded by walking back your scumread and refusing to vote him.

I am mentally weighing the Prism vs Implosion axis, because I am having a hard time making up my mind on Implosion. So, Prism's posting in terms of 'Here is how to play mafia effectively' goes along a lot of the same lines as my thinking about how you play the game (not necessarily same conclusions, but very similar mental rules for what to look for and what is meaningful). I want to say this is towny, but bias is so easy in that type of system. However, he is persecuting his reads pretty unerringly, so that is towny.

Now, on Implosion. He's been thin all game; that is, my general impression is that he doesn't do a lot to try and steer the conversation. He comments on this, but doesn't push. I am suspicious of anyone willing to just float along. However, he has had a few posts (I'm playing off the top of my head here rather than from notes / ISO, so if you want research it will have to be a follow up post later) that made me nod and decreased my suspicion. However, a body of work and a few posts aren't the same thing - It does mean he's not my top scum read, but I remain skeptical. When I last compiled a reads list, I had a note in there that said he couldn't be scum with SS (and I think one other player, but I forget who at this point), who was my other main read, and I think that's borne out at this point because I doubt SS is scum running the play he's running.

The last time you mentioned any reason to think he was town was 1000 posts back in #580. Every post in between these two you just gave more reason to scumread him only to give a weak obligatory post about why you still weren't sure. You scumread Implosion all game and apparently were pining for someone else to agree, yet you couldn't even be the second vote on him, instead preferring to build up to hammering Eager from #1168 on.

[podoboq]

Official Vote Count 2.16

Lynching

With 11 votes in play, it takes 6 to lynch.

Lil Uzi Vert (2): boring, Prism
Penguin Power (2): Zoronos, Gamma Emerald
boring (1): implosion
Zoronos (1): PenguinPower

Not Voting (5): Dierfire, Grendel, Lil Uzi Vert, Shadow_step, nn30

Deadline: (expired on 2016-10-30 12:31:00)

[Gamma Emerald]

I definitely see what Prism is talking about now.
VOTE: Lil Uzi Vert

[Zoronos]

Are you distorting on purpose, or just on accident?

Because 1852 was a D2 post where you had been afk all day or otherwise non-contributory. So while your spending the last half of D1 chasing down Implosion is all well and good, you weren't around to help me go after him on D2. If you had actually been around to do anything, it would be false. But you weren't, so.

I am not sure what you think 1447 is saying other than that I had a lean scum read on Implosion and a lean town read on you so... ???
And I was never building up to hammer eager; I was trying to figure out Boring. Which should have been super obvious from my continual questions to her. And yeah, I'm not putting the second vote on a lean scum read when my primary scum read has 4 votes and is the primary counterwagon to a town read.
I was frustrated with Eager because I thought he was defending himself ineffectively and otherwise playing poorly, but I kept trying to throw him lifelines to pull himself back. Trying to paint me as having a scum read on Eager is fundamentally disingenuous.

(And frankly, I'm glad I didn't listen to you, because my read on Implosion was wrong)

[PenguinPower]

So why wasn't your vote on your primary scum read at the time?

[Zoronos]

Prism you never answered my question on why you think Penguin is town.

[Zoronos]

So why wasn't your vote on your primary scum read at the time?

Because I wasn't sure yet, that's why I was still busy asking questions when LUV swung the hammer.

[PenguinPower]

Seriously. You waited 1,612 posts before voting on any of your scum reads. Why?

[PenguinPower]

I mean, that doesn't seem off-putting to anyone?

[Grendel]

It's giving me a lot of pause on accepting an LUV lynch because I'm really not sure I trust Boring's motivations for pushing that, even if I can see some of the points being made. Which makes me dig in my heels more on my PP train.

Funnily enough I would like to see Penguin lynched now that Gamma is highly likely town. But I don't trust you at all. I mean I'd be just as content with yours as Penguin's lynch right now.

You also aren't going that far out of your comfort zone to get Penguin lynched. After proving a case, you basically sat back and complained that nobody was sheeping you.

Yes, play style has an effect here (e.i. passive/time restricted players), but I don't think your either of these. You've been somebody who is an active poster (Not time restricted), and had a strong voice (Not Passive), yet you haven't done much campaigning one-on-one to get Penguin lynched. Speaking today, the closest that come to this was when you were explaining your Penguin scum read to Implosion, and boring. I think you talked about Penguin yester some to, but never voted, or anything. So that is a shrug.

The same thing with your town reads too. You didn't struggle to derail the Eager wagon yesterday, or Gamma wagon today. You sort of just pointed out that you thought they were town, and left it at that. IF you were so sure they would flip town why did you not talk people off their wagons?

I guess you could say I'm expecting too much of you. But you're clearly demonstrated your experience this game spans beyond a lot of this roster, and you've been more then a little opinionated on matters of play style. Why town!you is this complacent about pushing your reads is beyond me.

Pre-edit: sup dudes

[Grendel]

I mean, that doesn't seem off-putting to anyone?

Duh.

One in another reason why he hasn't touched my town reads at all this game.

You make very easy posts Penguin.

[PenguinPower]

That's great. Why hasn't he touched your votes?

[Zoronos]

Funnily enough I would like to see Penguin lynched now that Gamma is highly likely town. But I don't trust you at all. I mean I'd be just as content with yours as Penguin's lynch right now.

You also aren't going that far out of your comfort zone to get Penguin lynched. After proving a case, you basically sat back and complained that nobody was sheeping you.

Yes, play style has an effect here (e.i. passive/time restricted players), but I don't think your either of these. You've been somebody who is an active poster (Not time restricted), and had a strong voice (Not Passive), yet you haven't done much campaigning one-on-one to get Penguin lynched. Speaking today, the closest that come to this was when you were explaining your Penguin scum read to Implosion, and boring. I think you talked about Penguin yester some to, but never voted, or anything. So that is a shrug.

The same thing with your town reads too. You didn't struggle to derail the Eager wagon yesterday, or Gamma wagon today. You sort of just pointed out that you thought they were town, and left it at that. IF you were so sure they would flip town why did you not talk people off their wagons?

I guess you could say I'm expecting too much of you. But you're clearly demonstrated your experience this game spans beyond a lot of this roster, and you've been more then a little opinionated on matters of play style. Why town!you is this complacent about pushing your reads is beyond me.

Pre-edit: sup dudes

You think I've 'sat back' since putting my case on Penguin? Seriously? I've been demanding people explain why they think he's town over and over. And everyone but Gamma has fucking ignored me. I tried to sell his case repeatedly today and reiterated my reasons for it.

Also, bullshit I didn't struggle to derail the Eager wagon. I explained over and over that his play made no sense as a scum line, and that the ascetic counterclaim held no water.
Furthermore, I told you today that your meta read on Gamma was not good and that I thought he was town. I explained why I thought he was town, and you ignored me in favor of your meta read. I absolutely tried to tell you were that you were wrong, so don't give me that crap. If I didn't care about a gamma mislynch, I would have shut the hell up about why you were wrong and just let you carry on your merry way. I got in your way instead and said that meta reading Gamma was a bad plan. You just ignored me.

Of all the things that you could say I've been, complacent about pushing my reads when I think people are wrong isn't fucking one of them.

[PenguinPower]

Ok. So, you're going to skip over my one-line question.

[Grendel]

That's great. Why hasn't he touched your votes?

Because I trust you as much as I trust him.

Funnily enough I would like to see Penguin lynched now that Gamma is highly likely town. But I don't trust you at all. I mean I'd be just as content with yours as Penguin's lynch right now.

[boring]

@Prism, I don't get how you can be sitting on the bandwagon I'm leading and say I'm your second most likely scum. It makes no sense at all. I dug through his ISO and made a case today. I named him as probable scum end of day 2 too. If you really think I'm scum, wouldn't that make you question your read on LUV, of vice versa?

[boring]

EBWOP.. I meant end of day 1, not day 2.

[PenguinPower]

@Grendel: Answers D2. Not D1.

[Grendel]

Funnily enough I would like to see Penguin lynched now that Gamma is highly likely town. But I don't trust you at all. I mean I'd be just as content with yours as Penguin's lynch right now.

You also aren't going that far out of your comfort zone to get Penguin lynched. After proving a case, you basically sat back and complained that nobody was sheeping you.

Yes, play style has an effect here (e.i. passive/time restricted players), but I don't think your either of these. You've been somebody who is an active poster (Not time restricted), and had a strong voice (Not Passive), yet you haven't done much campaigning one-on-one to get Penguin lynched. Speaking today, the closest that come to this was when you were explaining your Penguin scum read to Implosion, and boring. I think you talked about Penguin yester some to, but never voted, or anything. So that is a shrug.

The same thing with your town reads too. You didn't struggle to derail the Eager wagon yesterday, or Gamma wagon today. You sort of just pointed out that you thought they were town, and left it at that. IF you were so sure they would flip town why did you not talk people off their wagons?

I guess you could say I'm expecting too much of you. But you're clearly demonstrated your experience this game spans beyond a lot of this roster, and you've been more then a little opinionated on matters of play style. Why town!you is this complacent about pushing your reads is beyond me.

Pre-edit: sup dudes

You think I've 'sat back' since putting my case on Penguin? Seriously? I've been demanding people explain why they think he's town over and over. And everyone but Gamma has fucking ignored me. I tried to sell his case repeatedly today and reiterated my reasons for it.

Also, bullshit I didn't struggle to derail the Eager wagon. I explained over and over that his play made no sense as a scum line, and that the ascetic counterclaim held no water.
Furthermore, I told you today that your meta read on Gamma was not good and that I thought he was town. I explained why I thought he was town, and you ignored me in favor of your meta read. I absolutely tried to tell you were that you were wrong, so don't give me that crap. If I didn't care about a gamma mislynch, I would have shut the hell up about why you were wrong and just let you carry on your merry way. I got in your way instead and said that meta reading Gamma was a bad plan. You just ignored me.

Of all the things that you could say I've been, complacent about pushing my reads when I think people are wrong isn't fucking one of them.

Shouting into the void=/=proactively trying to convince people that Penguin is best wagon.

Telling Eager that he needs to act more town+ once again shouting into the void=/= trying to reason directly with the people on Eager's wagon.

How many time did you directly talk to anybody by name when doing your convincing?

[Grendel]

@Grendel: Answers D2. Not D1.

Yesterday? He was bouncing around null-scum.

I don't recall him ever reaching a point where I'd vote him over anybody else.

[boring]

@Grendel, is there a reason you're waiting to vote at this point? Since it seems like you're trying to sort out PP and Zoronos, would you be willing to vote LUV in the meantime?

[nn30]

My strong town list - Prism/Grendel/myself

My medium town list - Shadow

My weak town list - Gamma/Implosion

Prism - Among other things, he specifically wanted people's opinions of him. Scum aren't likely to grab a neon sign and say "please read me." Town.

Grendel - gut more than anything. He seems to be trying to solve the game too but not post in particular makes me certain of his alignment. It's the aggregate. Town.

Shadow - counterclaim makes 0 sense from scum perspective. Must be town.

Gamma - cop claim combined with his treatment of Implosion reads towny.

Implosion - if we're to believe Gamma, we're also to believe that Implosion is town.

All that leaves is Boring / Penguin / Dierfire / Zoronos / LUV.

Boring - opportunistic and flip flopped on Eager. Still feels scummy.

Penguin - I don't have any specific thoughts other than that a meta-diving him on his scum games reveals similar play style to this version of Pengin.

Dierfire - null. Haven't put much thought here.

Zoronos - strongest scumtell is his lack of desire to vote. He's also making tons of observations. If he's scum, he's really good scum.

LUV - his thoughts and reads are still somewhere on the moon.

I'm fine with pressing and or lynching any of my five not town reads. I'd like as many people's thoughts on these five as possible.

[PenguinPower]

Penguin - I don't have any specific thoughts other than that a meta-diving him on his scum games reveals similar play style to this version of Pengin.

This is funny. Sorry, just want to call this one out for endgame (and as a blatant lie). None of my scum games have been anywhere close to this one. Feel free to meta me, anyone.

[nn30]

@ Zoronos - what are your thoughts on Shadow right now?

[boring]

Penguin - I don't have any specific thoughts other than that a meta-diving him on his scum games reveals similar play style to this version of Pengin.

This is funny. Sorry, just want to call this one out for endgame (and as a blatant lie). None of my scum games have been anywhere close to this one. Feel free to meta me, anyone.

If you want to prove a point, you have to put in the effort to prove it. No one is going to care enough to sift through meta to clear a scum read, and it's a waste of time if someone thinks you're town.

So tell us or show us how/why this game differs so much from your scum games, if that's going to be your line of defense.