Mini Normal #1838 - Game Over

podoboq
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Post Post #2050  (ISO)  » Mon Oct 24, 2016 6:10 pm

Official Vote Count 2.20
LynchingWith 11 votes in play, it takes 6 to lynch.

Lil Uzi Vert (5): boring, Prism, Gamma Emerald, implosion, Grendel
Penguin Power (2): Zoronos, nn30
Zoronos (1): PenguinPower

Not Voting (3): Dierfire, Lil Uzi Vert, Shadow_step

V/LA: Grendel


Deadline: (expired on 2016-10-30 12:31:00)
Last edited by podoboq on Wed Oct 26, 2016 2:49 pm, edited 3 times in total.
eagerSnake - "Fwiw mod steals pagetops while driving. Still think they wouldn't put in 2 people with ascetic?"

Gamma Emerald
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Post Post #2051  (ISO)  » Mon Oct 24, 2016 6:10 pm

dat sneaky pagetop tho
Sometimes silence is the loudest thing you can say.

boringHappy Birthday!
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Post Post #2052  (ISO)  » Mon Oct 24, 2016 7:35 pm

In post 2046, nn30 wrote:
In post 2029, boring wrote:
In post 2008, nn30 wrote:Town would be attempting to work with me and get me on their side. Because. Ya know. We need to work together to find scum.
In post 2019, implosion wrote:Scum would be attempting to work with you and get on your side. Because. Ya know. They need to not die to win the game.
You guys are doing that thing again where you're projecting based on personality. Some people manipulate through cooperation, others, through hissy fits (AtE). Unless you guys know how Penguin plays, you have no way of knowing whether these weird tantrums are AI/NAI. Better to look at motivation.

Which brings us to why meta is important.
In post 2010, Zoronos wrote:I think we're in meta land again kinda.
It helps you sort between personality and pathology. It's easy to say that meta is crap when you don't know any of the players (or you want them to not meta-read you), but it has its value.

:nerd:


What's the motivation for PP calling me a liar?

Tantrums can go both ways. I mean implosion called me a liar for something that's very easily chalked down to perpective, which I interpreted as a tantrum as well.

It depends on if you think he was arguing with you in the heat of the moment, or trying to appeal to a broader audience in an attempt to subvert your credibility.

Which does it look like to you?

boringHappy Birthday!
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Post Post #2053  (ISO)  » Mon Oct 24, 2016 7:37 pm

Mod's page-top-nabbing only serves to make him feel more god-like.

nn30
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Post Post #2054  (ISO)  » Mon Oct 24, 2016 8:15 pm

My feeling is that he was trying to subvert my credibility.

Zoronos
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Post Post #2055  (ISO)  » Mon Oct 24, 2016 8:25 pm

Did he attack you in general, or your argument?

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Post Post #2056  (ISO)  » Mon Oct 24, 2016 8:29 pm

Can I respond to that? Because it's pretty obvious.

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Post Post #2057  (ISO)  » Mon Oct 24, 2016 8:54 pm

It looks like he is attacking the argument, but the way it is worded looks like it's trying to discredit.
Sometimes silence is the loudest thing you can say.

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Post Post #2058  (ISO)  » Mon Oct 24, 2016 8:56 pm

boring wrote:You guys are doing that thing again where you're projecting based on personality. Some people manipulate through cooperation, others, through hissy fits (AtE). Unless you guys know how Penguin plays, you have no way of knowing whether these weird tantrums are AI/NAI. Better to look at motivation.

Which brings us to why meta is important.

This is exactly my point. I do know how Penguin plays to some extent as I just finished another game with him where I was town and he was scum who played nothing like what he's done here.

Zoronos wrote:But, can you talk to me about why you think PP is town? What are you seeing that I'm missing? Help me understand this one, because I can't get my head around a town PP here.

I feel like we've been through this song and dance already. I put stock in meta and you don't. I put stock in tonality and you don't. I don't think I can convince you since you don't believe the underlying tenets of my reasons to be valid.

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Post Post #2059  (ISO)  » Mon Oct 24, 2016 9:01 pm

In post 2058, implosion wrote:I feel like we've been through this song and dance already. I put stock in meta and you don't. I put stock in tonality and you don't. I don't think I can convince you since you don't believe the underlying tenets of my reasons to be valid.


Okay. At this point I'm accepting your towniness based on the clear, so am interested in working with you to figure out why we're seeing the same events diametrically oppositly. But I respect that the reasoning behind that may not be useful to me.

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Post Post #2060  (ISO)  » Mon Oct 24, 2016 9:02 pm

Also.
In post 1921, Shadow_step wrote:Also even if Gamma is telling the truth, implo isn't clear.
Town cop would imply at least one mafia role which is immune to cop. We already have 2 ascetics. Nexus is not normal. GF is blacklisted. Leaves a traitor.

It's really incredibly frustrating how you refuse to even lend an ear to me when I try to tell you how site meta works and then make claims that can be disproven by the most trivial amount of searching.

(granted it took a bit to find that game but that's just because cops are so rare these days, it's the first one I found).

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Post Post #2061  (ISO)  » Mon Oct 24, 2016 9:05 pm

K...I'm going to go ahead and do it without permission. Don't care.


In post 1980, nn30 wrote:
In post 1977, PenguinPower wrote:Point out where I get aggressive in my scum games where I'm not a replacement. That's unfamiliar to me.


Not happening.


In post 1984, PenguinPower wrote:Um...wow. Weak. My scum game has typically been the opposite of what I'm doing now, hence my statement. I'm moving on, because you aren't even trying to defend your (false) statement.


And this is me attacking his (overall) credibility? I just wanted a response to his statement (which he refused, and which was the only thing I referred to as false).

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Post Post #2062  (ISO)  » Mon Oct 24, 2016 9:40 pm

In post 1972, PenguinPower wrote:This is funny. Sorry, just want to call this one out for endgame (and as a blatant lie). None of my scum games have been anywhere close to this one. Feel free to meta me, anyone.


It was this, actually. Calling me a liar is what moved my weak scum read to a strong one. The only reason for me to lie would be if I were scum. Calling me a liar is implying that Penguin scum reads me. Scum reading me flies in the face of what everyone else in this town, except for Shadow_Step, has done to this point in the game. Either Penguin is town and not paying attention, or this was a scum slip.

Since then, Penguin has been misconstruing why I scum read him strongly enough to vote him.

To my eye:

Boring asks me what I think his motivation calling me a liar is (2052).
I say it's to subvert my credibility (2054).

And Penguin chooses to respond by pointing to posts which I never said contained him attempting to do this (2061).

And he still hasn't answered why he chose to call me a liar. After I've repeatedly asked him.

Ditch the meta argument. It isn't the source of the strength of my read on him.

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Post Post #2063  (ISO)  » Mon Oct 24, 2016 9:43 pm

So, your read is false...that makes it a lie, qualifiers aside. Sorry if that triggers you. Defend it then.

Also, it doesn't mean that I scum read you. If I did, I would vote you. Though your reaction to that belief is interesting.

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Post Post #2064  (ISO)  » Mon Oct 24, 2016 9:51 pm

In post 2063, PenguinPower wrote:So, your read is false...that makes it a lie, qualifiers aside. Sorry if that triggers you. Defend it then.

Also, it doesn't mean that I scum read you. If I did, I would vote you. Though your reaction to that belief is interesting.



False =/= lie.

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Post Post #2065  (ISO)  » Mon Oct 24, 2016 9:59 pm

Even an honest lie is a lie. Back up your statement or recant.

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Post Post #2066  (ISO)  » Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:20 pm

In post 2065, PenguinPower wrote:Even an honest lie is a lie. Back up your statement or recant.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie

"A lie is a statement that the stating party believes to be false and that is made with the intention to deceive."

Quit pretending to not know what a lie is.

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Post Post #2067  (ISO)  » Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:17 pm

So.... as much fun as dictionary time is.
NN, do you feel your case is still valid? Either the underlying point about his scum play, or the built-upon-reaction case.

(I agree with the distinction between 'wrong' and 'lying', but that's really beside the point.)

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Post Post #2068  (ISO)  » Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:39 pm

Yep. Still think the reaction case is good enough.

The distinction is important - if lying didn't imply intent to decieve, my case wouldn't exist.

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Post Post #2069  (ISO)  » Tue Oct 25, 2016 12:56 am

Well then.
LUV - Talk to me. Who are your best scum reads? What do you think about the people voting on you - Whose cases are bad? Or do you think it's all mistaken town? (I am presuming here you are going to claim town and that you're being mislynched.

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Post Post #2070  (ISO)  » Tue Oct 25, 2016 5:41 am

I've read through both PenguinPower and Lil Uzi Vert again. I don't find the depth of analysis that I find in other players (Prism, Zoronos, Grendel). In general I'd characterize this as not making effort to solve the game, which is suspicious.
I suppose that, if I trusted my reads on Prism, Zoronos, and Grendel, I'd start lynching by POE and drop a hammer on Lil Uzi Vert, but I'm reluctant to do so for two reasons.
First, the wagon on Shadow_step after the claim yesterday does not strike me as the sort of place to find a high density of Mafia players (it would have been far easier to vote for eagerSnake). This means that Lil Uzi Vert (and nn30) should be less suspicious than the other players I'm having difficulty reading (boring, PenguinPower). As a parallel to that, if nn30 is less suspicious, it becomes difficult to see why no suspicious players are voting for boring in the quoted VC.
Second, I don't really trust my reads on Prism, Zoronos, and Grendel. I have reasons to read each as Town but I'm simply finding it too good to be true that I've narrowed the Mafia players down so much.

In post 1150, podoboq wrote:
Official Vote Count 1.26
LynchingWith 13 votes in play, it takes 7 to lynch.

boring (5): eagerSnake, MariaR, implosion, Gamma Emerald, nn30
eagerSnake (4): Shadow_step, boring, PenguinPower, Grendel
PenguinPower (1): Dierfire
Shadow_step (1): Lil Uzi Vert

Not Voting (2): Zoronos, Prism


V/LA: none

Deadline: (expired on 2016-10-18 15:22:00)


My vote is for boring. I haven't seen many good reasons to read her as Mafia, but I've seen none to read her as Town and I think that the VC shows, at a minimum, Mafia players avoiding her wagon.

VOTE: boring

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Post Post #2071  (ISO)  » Tue Oct 25, 2016 7:28 am

In post 2062, nn30 wrote:
In post 1972, PenguinPower wrote:This is funny. Sorry, just want to call this one out for endgame (and as a blatant lie). None of my scum games have been anywhere close to this one. Feel free to meta me, anyone.


It was this, actually. Calling me a liar is what moved my weak scum read to a strong one. The only reason for me to lie would be if I were scum. Calling me a liar is implying that Penguin scum reads me. Scum reading me flies in the face of what everyone else in this town, except for Shadow_Step, has done to this point in the game. Either Penguin is town and not paying attention, or this was a scum slip.

What the fuck?
Why would scum submit an unpopular opinion?
Sometimes silence is the loudest thing you can say.

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Post Post #2072  (ISO)  » Tue Oct 25, 2016 8:32 am

By accident.

PenguinPower
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Post Post #2073  (ISO)  » Tue Oct 25, 2016 8:39 am

Jesus H. Christ, you're tunneling on that way too hard. If we want to get definitions correct, change it from "lie" to "confabulation."

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Post Post #2074  (ISO)  » Tue Oct 25, 2016 9:11 am

I guess the pertinent question - Penguin, do you think NN was attempting to *actively and malicious* distort your record, or that he a 'wrong but without malice' view of your record / meta?

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