Mini Normal 1843 - Endgame

[Sotty7]

I need to get a handle on some other people. Who should I start with first? Any suggestions?

How about your reads on jaack and Maria?

[TwoFace]

Ok I'll focus on them first.

[MariaR]

I need to get a handle on some other people. Who should I start with first? Any suggestions?

How about your reads on jaack and Maria?

Why these 2 in particular?

[CloudKicker]

Ill check reguarily if anyone wants my input but i have mid terms this week so im busy af. My initial gut read was that gm is town and sotty is tote null aand seems hard to read tone-wise

[Sotty7]

I need to get a handle on some other people. Who should I start with first? Any suggestions?

How about your reads on jaack and Maria?

Why these 2 in particular?

Jaack was on my mind after my convo with BV and you had just asked for a case on me and BBT when it's pretty much what the thread is full of right now.

[Sotty7]

1. Who are you to tell me how to play?
2. How can you even tell me to vote my biggest scum read when I said in posts 242/243 that I don't have any reads. Which means I didn't have a "biggest scum read" to vote? I even said when I have reads I would vote which makes your comment to me very shallow.

1. I wanted to get a reaction. I got one.
2. In the early game no one really has any strong reads but if no one voted there would be nothing to react to and we'd all be sat around talking about nothing. The Rask bandwagon is a great example of what I am talking about.

I think I have made it pretty clear that I don't fully buy into your coin flip deal because the minute I started to hard push against you (AKA voted) you found a way to get your vote on Victor. Perhaps it was just a coincidence and you're really sat at home flipping a coin, but the timing was a little too much for me to believe. You have since butted heads with me hard fighting every possible point I have made against you to the point of tunneling. I'm starting to think we're chasing each other in circles and that your stubbornness could easily come from town which frustrates me. I'll reassess once I see more of your other reads.

[TwoFace]

That's all you got? Damn I knew my posts were good, but didn't think they were that good you couldn't even muster up a good defense

Ok so sotty is scum. Let's go

[Sotty7]

lol

So about those other reads? Were you at?

[Sotty7]

Okay. Can you also go over your reads on GM and Jaack? I have a few thoughts on them but want to see what you thought before saying. Specifically, regarding GM's interaction with BBT, and Jaack's initial vote on you.

Reading through GM's ISO I still get lost in her back and forth with Victor. The whole thing just kinda washes over me and doesn't leave me with a strong impression either way. Her early town read of Rask and Two face is good, where she talks about "scum are more likely to get the subtly" I think is a good point that she didn't have to bring to the table at the time. She does leave her BBT read swinging in the wind opting instead to push on Victor, who I think is very likely town. Looks like she is cutting BBT slack that he quite honestly doesn't deserve and I think your push to ask her to detail why me over BBT is a pretty good one, but her early game play minus the Victor stuff is good.

[TwoFace]

Don't worry where I'm at. I'll get to them on my own schedule. Go pretend to be useful somewhere else

[Sotty7]

I need to get a handle on some other people. Who should I start with first? Any suggestions?

I'd like a BBT read too, I don't see anything detailed in your ISO about him. Just saying you wouldn't vote him before he came back from his prod. Anything changed? What do you think of him being my competing wagon and the composition of those wagons?

What the hell, I'm feeling greedy ~ GM read too would make my day.

[TwoFace]

Now you're getting greedy. Plus giving reads on 4 people is getting close to reads list.

How about i just reread the thread and I'll add a couple of names into the possible scum pile. Who I'm town/null reading aren't really necessary

[Hoopla]

I agree with recent murmurings about Jaack. His under-the-radar, just-doing-enough-to-skirt-by play is the archetypal D1 scum blueprint. I'm also not mad about recent attention on goodmorning. Seems like we're spoilt for choice today!

[goodmorning]

@GM, why do you prefer Sotty7 to BBT?

For a start, Sotty's posted a lot more, so we'd have more to go on in terms of associatives.
Besides that, I've seen Town-Toffee have these slow starts before, and if he's under a heavy time constraint that could explain the things I haven't liked. Some of them also seem too obvious - and, as I've said, Toffee is better than that.
(Plus I've played Toffee several times before, but that's more an insight into me than Toffee.)

@GM, upon re-read, there are a ton of things about you that caught my attention which I missed the first time around that I want to discuss. Your read on BBT is a little weird in retrospect. You say you expect better from him as early as page five. Then, you say that BBT was at least better than Victor for spending time on his Rask read. But all BBT had done up till that point was pressure Rask, back off and call him town for no reason. I can't see how he was better than Victor here especially since you seem to expect more from him.

He was at least better than Victor at the time when I initially made that statement. I've said all I care to say about it.

Then there's your take on the competing wagons of BBT and Sotty7. You spent the early game throwing suspicion at BBT but he always takes a backseat for you, first behind Victor, now behind Sotty7. I dislike everything about your 528. You quote posts of BBT where he says he needs time to invest in the game and call it an okay answer. If someone is inactive, it already means that they don't have time for the game. BBT showing up and saying that is a very mundane answer and I don't understand what you found okay about it. You even go so far as to tell Victor to "leave off Toffee" which makes zero sense given Toffee is a scumread for you.

"I'm busy" is fine. It's not a great response to concerns - a great response would be actually producing quality content - but it's fine. It certainly won't be fine if it persists, but that's if it persists.

I wanted Victor to leave off Toffee

for real-time-type catching up

. I do that shit and I love when other people do that shit and anyone attempting to discourage it should be discouraged.

Why do you even suspect Sotty7 anyways? I don't think you've given any reason for it. Given BBT is explicitly a scumread for you, I find your preference of the Sotty7 wagon highly suspect.

I touched on it very vaguely in 315. Since then I've had some small issues but none are as convincing as the ones people have already posted so I didn't really bother. (a. k. a. Pushing a case on a good player is hard & I don't wanna.) They include:
-response to Face is bad
-asked me and Victor to condense reads on each other; didn't follow up when I did this, vaguely commented on like one line of Victor's
-support for entering Toffee wagon shallow (which I was pretty indifferent to (366)), continued reasoning on Toffee shallow (which I am much less indifferent to)
-projects a lot of what I think of as 'surface activity' which is basically looking like you're posting content, but not actually posting content. A good way to do this is to seize up on little things or get into a tunnel battle.

Also: can we all please stop conflating things like "X is better than Y" with "OMG Y SUCKSSSSSS" or "X is worse than Y" with "OMG Y IS THE GREATESTTTTTT"? Those are functionally not the same thing. Chocolate cake is better than key lime pie.

I also have a hard time understanding your townread on me. You call me town early but then cast suspicion on me for "trying too hard." You make a few vague accusations that you don't fully explain. Can you tell me what you meant in 161 and 224? After that, I call you town and then there's no mention at all about my previous "tryharding," you just townread me back. It looks like you think you can pocket me because I was townreading you and there's no progression there that makes sense from a town POV. I found it odd that you refute my townread on you despite reading me as town. Your other reads (like on TwoFace for not getting a joke) also feel really weak.

I said in the very post where I said you were trying too hard that you could just be a tryharding townie. No prizes for guessing my conclusion.

161: I thought your Toffee vote was weak.
224: Tryharding isn't about what specific things you analyze; it's a state of mind.

Every read has to start somewhere.

--

Why is it that when Face asks people to tell him to do shit people tell him to do shit but when I ask people to tell me to do shit I get ignored?????

[Sotty7]

Now you're getting greedy. Plus giving reads on 4 people is getting close to reads list.

How about i just reread the thread and I'll add a couple of names into the possible scum pile. Who I'm town/null reading aren't really necessary

Fair enough, I was getting greedy.

[Sotty7]

-response to Face is bad
-asked me and Victor to condense reads on each other; didn't follow up when I did this, vaguely commented on like one line of Victor's
-support for entering Toffee wagon shallow (which I was pretty indifferent to (366)), continued reasoning on Toffee shallow (which I am much less indifferent to)
-projects a lot of what I think of as 'surface activity' which is basically looking like you're posting content, but not actually posting content. A good way to do this is to seize up on little things or get into a tunnel battle.

I think I have addressed you v Victor a lot actually. I mean what more do you want from me? I think you were barking up the wrong tree. Surface activity point is junk though I've generated plenty of content and I'm trying to disengage from a possible tunnel.

[mhsmith0]

Votecount 1.08

BlueBloodedToffee (3)

Sotty7 , Hoopla , MichelSableheart ,

goodmorning (2)

VictorDeAngelo , BlackVoid ,

MichelSableheart (1)

CloudKicker ,

BlackVoid (1)

I Am Innocent ,

VictorDeAngelo (1)

goodmorning ,

Sotty7 (3)

Jaack , Raskolnikov , TwoFace ,

MariaR (1)

BlueBloodedToffee ,

Not Voting (1)

MariaR ,

Day one deadline is Wednesday November 2, 8 AM PST. (expired on 2016-11-02 08:00:00)

With 13 alive, it's 7 to lynch!

[/size]

[BlackVoid]

@GM, I still find your read on Sotty7 weak. Lynching active players for the associatives is cop-out reasoning. Active players are more useful later on. I also initially disliked Sotty7's reaction to TwoFace but her thoughtfulness in trying to see if she was tunneling rang town. Besides, I took at a glance at Team Mafia scumgame she referred to and her activity level here is around triple that. Furthermore, if you know BBT has slow starts, why would you scumread him so early in the game? Given you dislike both my and Sotty7's pushes on BBT, what was

your

reasoning for scumreading him?

With that said, it looks like BBT is play for today. Hopefully we can L-1 a wagon and get a claim to assess before getting too close to the deadline. Victor, MariaR, you should join me.

VOTE: BlueBloodedToffee

[Hoopla]

With that said, it looks like BBT is play for today. Hopefully we can L-1 a wagon and get a claim to assess before getting too close to the deadline.

I agree with this. My biggest pet peeve in mafia is the amount of D1's that wait until the last 48 hours to compromise, leaving little time to analyse a claim, and often reducing the town to chaotic scrambling if that wagon dissipates.

Really, the most interesting/alignment relevant things that happen on D1 occur post-claim, so lets get a move on. Maria, BBT, goodmorning, Innocent and Cloudkicker are wasting their votes and future time to analyse a claim/wagon as far as I'm concerned.

[VictorDeAngelo]

With that said, it looks like BBT is play for today. Hopefully we can L-1 a wagon and get a claim to assess before getting too close to the deadline.

I agree with this. My biggest pet peeve in mafia is the amount of D1's that wait until the last 48 hours to compromise, leaving little time to analyse a claim, and often reducing the town to chaotic scrambling if that wagon dissipates.

Totally agree with this.

Alright, as much as I want to tear 588 apart, GM can wait.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: BlueBloodedToffee

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Sorry Mod, can you replace me

[mhsmith0]

Acknowledged, looking for replacement,

[mhsmith0]

GreyICE replaces bluebloodedtoffee effective immediately.

[GreyICE]

Hi friends. How goes? I saw the player list and replaced in without reading anything else.

[Hoopla]

Hi friends. How goes? I saw the player list and replaced in without reading anything else.

Welcome old friend, but your slot is on the ropes. There's no shame in phoning it in if you're scum and hanging out in the dead thread. I'll be there after N1 to come and reminisce about days gone by.