Mini Normal 1839 - Game Over!

[Foxbird]

Votecount 2.5

karnos

(1) - Thor665

Saru

(3) - aronagrundy, Lowell, ironstove

Thor665

(1) - karnos

Fire Assassin

(1) - PenguinPower

LmkGuy

(1) - Fire Assassin

Lowell

(1) - Saru

Not Voting

(3) - LmkGuy, Nero Cain, AlpacaAlpaca

With

11

players eligible to vote, it’s

6

to lynch!

Day 2 will end in

(expired on 2016-11-09 12:47:28).

Mod Notes:

None!

[ironstove]

Alright thors the lynch today FAM

VOTE: Thor

[ironstove]

I mean coming into today my plan was to vote Grey since I thought that the Mal town flip meant that scum were likely the ones that were against the Mal wagon and then voted him i.e, Grey and Stove.

BUT STOVE IS ALIVE AND YOU HAVEN'T VOTED HIM YET!

When I saw that Grey died it made me pause just a tad and I wanted to see how things went a little bit. If I have to choose between Karnos/Saru I'm going to go with Karnos since the Saru case seems like wank.

I thought you were the one who pushed the mal wagon? ROFL.

First of all, that mal wagon was last second so I chose to lynch him rather than have a no lynch, so please don't try to frame the votes like there was 5 months left of time and me and grey suddenly blitz'd the votes to hammer because that was not how it happened. The entire D1 I was pushing different people and never went for mal, and the case built on mal was weak + he wasn't even around to defend himself, so if anyone should be scum read it's you for targeting an easy town lynch like mal.

Please just stop fucking trying to lead town if you're town, which I don't think you are because you're NOT.

THOR NEEDS TO BE FLIPPED. REFER TO MY D1 ARGUMENTS ON WHY THOR IS THE LYNCH OVER NERO/SARU. PLEASE LYNCH THOR.

[ironstove]

You are legit scum tho, I like how you built a train and the first thing you do on D1 is try to pin the lynching of a town on someone who was against the train but voted anyway because mechanically speaking it is anti-town and bad game play to not have a lynch even if you're against it (which I was, but not strongly).

[ironstove]

NERO SCUM IF THOR FLIPS SCUM, PLEASE LYNCH THORARINO.

[LmkGuy]

Can we lynch Lowel pls?

VOTE: Lowel

Reasons are in D1 posts and still stand. His D2 posts are him revoting Saru after basically throwing a vote on easy end of day Saru wagon in 681 and 809. In those posts he basically says yeah idk why Saru is scum but its an easy wagon so lets jump on it!

862 is him just agreeing with the pack about FA claims and then try to blame end of d1 on Saru

869 and I guess read Saru's response to this post for more reason for scum!lowel

Also I previously thought that Thor v Saru was Town v Town, but I'm beginning to think more and more that one of them is scum. Based on my lowel read, I would have to say scum!thor is more likely than scum!saru at this point.

Still I'm more confident in my lowel scum read than thor or saru atm.

[LmkGuy]

Alright thors the lynch today FAM

VOTE: Thor

How are you feeling about Karnos these days? I know he was an early scum read of yours.

[aronagrundy]

I actually don't get what you take an issue with. You seem to agree that the tunnel on Karnos is foolish("[Thor] harped too much on Karnos"), but give me a hard time because I give Thor a hard time about that same exact tunnel. Forget for a second about the whole "copying me" point I brought up. Strip that away, and what's your actual issue with my take on Thor's insistence to lynch Karnos? In your own view, it should be nothing, yes? If there is (

besides the copying argument

), then let me know, because you've lost me now.

Uh this is kind of a large part of your case on him that you are refusing to address so I'm not going to ignore it. I'll devote a post to it.

I just don't see how my other argument about the buddying/copying would make me scum more than it could possibly make Thor scum for a tunnel, you, yourself don't like. Like your whole thought process confuses me. Even if I had never said Thor was copying me, would you agree he's scummy for harping on Karnos?

Not saying it makes you scum more. Yes I probably would still lean scum because of the push on karnos and the quick switch to mal

[aronagrundy]

Ok saru here's my problem with your push on thor. I'm just going through your posts on it. In spoiler tags because walls are ugly

Spoiler:

As for the rest of the game - I'd say maybe Thor taking advantage of me on Karnos? Been thinking about that ever since Karnos mentioned it. He's basically stolen what I've been saying about Karnos and presented it as his own, perhaps to get me to keep going.

This is the first time you say you're scumreading thor, and it's 100% the copying argument. It's also given under pressure from grey.

No, I thought Karnos was scum for maybe a couple of days. But recently, I've thought about why Thor is basically taking up my argument and trying to use it against Karnos. Like I'm not ego-tistic, upon re-read, I can see me being superficial in my arguments against Karnos. I don't feel great about Karnos, but I feel even worse about Thor right now.

As for what arguments, basically everything. The part about Karnos being hypocritical based on the iron townread and the exception and all that. He's just more articulate with them.

grey asks you to elaborate on what arguments, and you respond vaguely. Like I said as far as I know thor was the first one to bring up the hypocrisy of the iron townread (why he voted him in the first place) so are there even any other examples?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Thor665
I'm almost 100% on Thor being scum here. His push on Karnos is all kinds of bad, and I don't see how he doesn't see it. Like I get the hypocrisy that Karnos is doing(I've pointed it out like 3 times now myself), but it isn't anything damning, and it just feels really nit-picky at this point.

Then you don't bring up the copying argument when you actually vote him, which you only do when the FA wagon starts to die and you get put under pressure again.

Initially I felt Karnos was scum because of what he said about sharing town reads, which felt like an excuse to just not give town reads at all, and then he also said he didn't have any particular scum reads either. So it mainly felt he was just making excuses for not wanting to do anything. It got even worse when he revealed that he read Iron as town and was therefore willing to vote with Iron, which seemed to go against his stated views and exception to those views.

But then Thor came in and he started to make similar or pretty much the same arguments that I was getting at, which made me feel a bit paranoid that he was buddying me or taking advantage. Karnos pointed out this possibility:

There is also a fair chance that between you and Saru one is actually town just being taken advantage of by the scum, but I'm fairly confident that at least one of you is scum

And ever since then I've been somewhat paranoid about Thor. Notice how I don't really push Karnos after that. Usually my arguments are pretty emotional/bad as town, so when I see people agreeing with me, that worries me. It happened with Math buddying me onto Dierfire in 1800.

And basically, now, Thor is just harping on Karnos without much thought about anyone/anything else in the game. His ISO is basically all Karnos.

Upon re-read, I don't think the arguments Thor and I were pushing were really all that great, and for him to be so gung-ho about it is strange. Like, yes, Karnos might have contradicted himself, but I don't really see it being the end all reason to call Karnos scum, as Thor does.

Also, just noticed: Thor said in 387 that the argument between Karnos and I was essentially white noise, so then why is Thor contributing to that white noise immediately afterwards? It doesn't add up.

And then you bring it up again sorta but still don't elaborate on it.

The whole copying thing is just part of why I'm voting you. I don't get your logic but that's not good enough of a reason to vote you. It's the fact that you brought it up under pressure and refused to respond to people asking you to clarify. And then you only actually acted on your scumread of thor once a wagon on you came up. I'm seeing scum that got pushed into a corner and is trying to avoid any more pressure. (the fact that your wagon got replaced with one on a town lurker doesn't help either)

[aronagrundy]

iron can you just explain why you want to lynch thor over saru anyway?

[Saru]

The whole copying thing is just part of why I'm voting you. I don't get your logic but that's not good enough of a reason to vote you. It's the fact that you brought it up under pressure and refused to respond to people asking you to clarify. And then you only actually acted on your scumread of thor once a wagon on you came up. I'm seeing scum that got pushed into a corner and is trying to avoid any more pressure. (the fact that your wagon got replaced with one on a town lurker doesn't help either)

As to your first point about bringing it up under pressure, it would seem silly for me to do that as scum given the situation. I actually was under no pressure by Grey, because Grey was only pushing me with only 1 vote on me. I couldn't feel pressure from him even if I wanted to. There was no indication I was going to be lynched when Grey was pushing on me or that his push would even lead to my lynch, so me revealing how I was feeling Thor those past couple of days couldn't possibly have anything to do with pressure. It could just be, oh, you know, my actual feelings?

As scum in that situation, I would have just eternally kept up on Karnos (he was the leading wagon, after all) and would have either dismissed Grey or just blatantly link him as a partner to Karnos. I don't see a world in which myself as scum does what I did there given the situation at the time which was vote off Karnos and then move onto Knight/Thor. It doesn't add up, frankly.

You're asking me to clarify the arguments about Karnos, yeah? Thor was the first to bring up the iron townread contradiction(that was my mistake), but even if you take that away, I'm not a happy camper with his push on Karnos, as you also don't seem to be. So if your problem this whole time has been that, then yes, Thor did bring it up first, and I missed that. Still not ok with him though.

And finally, you talk about my wagon being "replaced" by a town lurker. Lowell makes this point as well and I responded to him about this in 811 (which he conveniently ignored and continues to ignore). Do read it.

[Saru]

Oh, and to add to that last point about the wagon going from me to malp at the last second, you were the fifth vote on the malp wagon, and so for you to say that it bothers you how that wagon switch happened makes zero sense. You literally contributed to the wagon that makes you suspicious of me. Like lol. You're kind of implicating yourself there.

[aronagrundy]

I'm aware but there were legitimate reasons for the mal wagon, he just happened to flip town. Scum would know that he was town, though, and would also know that a mal lynch would give the town almost zero information. I'll actually take back using the mal wagon as a reason against you because I think it was a good move for scum regardless of your alignment.

[aronagrundy]

As to your first point about bringing it up under pressure, it would seem silly for me to do that as scum given the situation. I actually was under no pressure by Grey, because Grey was only pushing me with only 1 vote on me. I couldn't feel pressure from him even if I wanted to. There was no indication I was going to be lynched when Grey was pushing on me or that his push would even lead to my lynch, so me revealing how I was feeling Thor those past couple of days couldn't possibly have anything to do with pressure. It could just be, oh, you know, my actual feelings?

As scum in that situation, I would have just eternally kept up on Karnos (he was the leading wagon, after all) and would have either dismissed Grey or just blatantly link him as a partner to Karnos. I don't see a world in which myself as scum does what I did there given the situation at the time which was vote off Karnos and then move onto Knight/Thor. It doesn't add up, frankly.

You're asking me to clarify the arguments about Karnos, yeah? Thor was the first to bring up the iron townread contradiction(that was my mistake), but even if you take that away, I'm not a happy camper with his push on Karnos, as you also don't seem to be. So if your problem this whole time has been that, then yes, Thor did bring it up first, and I missed that. Still not ok with him though.

And finally, you talk about my wagon being "replaced" by a town lurker. Lowell makes this point as well and I responded to him about this in 811 (which he conveniently ignored and continues to ignore). Do read it.

Paragraph 1: I mean yeah you had one vote but so what? grey came in with you as his strongest scumread.

Paragraph 2: WIFOM

Paragraph 3: covered this

[aronagrundy]

oh shit there were four paragraphs

[aronagrundy]

I mean I covered paragraph 3 already honestly. And honestly was it literally only the iron townread that you're claiming thor copied? You quoted yourself saying it was "everything" yesterday

[aronagrundy]

I'm going to stop posting for the night after this, but the problem is that you kept on deflected from people asking you to clarify the original foundation of your case until like literally now

[Saru]

Paragraph 1: I mean yeah you had one vote but so what? grey came in with you as his strongest scumread.

And? One player strongly scum reading me would automatically result in me feeling under pressure or something? I had one vote, and so therefore, I had no real reason to feel pressure. You didn't disprove my original point.

I mean I covered paragraph 3 already honestly. And honestly was it literally only the iron townread that you're claiming thor copied? You quoted yourself saying it was "everything" yesterday

Paragraph 3 is me just responding to you...so I'm not sure what's being covered lol. And when I said "everything" I really just meant two things:

As for what arguments, basically everything.

The part about Karnos being hypocritical based on the iron townread and the exception and all that.

It might be the "all that" that you're bothered by, which is semantics, really. It was only the iron townread and the exception argument that I felt was being copied (although now I see that wasn't the case). Nothing else, to be perfectly clear.

I'm going to stop posting for the night after this, but the problem is that you kept on deflected from people asking you to clarify the original foundation of your case until like literally now

I wasn't deflecting anything. You've asked me questions, and I've responded when I've had the chance.

Both you and Grey asked me a similar question, and I gave both of you the same response. If you felt it was vague, then you could have told me to elaborate. Grey certainly never asked, and you turned it into me deflecting somehow.

Anyways, I'm really done arguing with you about this. We've made progress with each other in some regard, so that's good, I guess. Let me know when you want to return for our next therapy session together, thanks.

[ironstove]

VOTE: THOR

[Thor665]

As scum in that situation, I would have just eternally kept up on Karnos (he was the leading wagon, after all) and would have either dismissed Grey or just blatantly link him as a partner to Karnos. I don't see a world in which myself as scum does what I did there given the situation at the time which was vote off Karnos and then move onto Knight/Thor. It doesn't add up, frankly.

I agree with this, and don't think it's WIFOM.

It was only the iron townread and the exception argument that I felt was being copied (although now I see that wasn't the case). Nothing else, to be perfectly clear.

[Nero Cain]

First of all, that mal wagon was last second so I chose to lynch him rather than have a no lynch, so please don't try to frame the votes like there was 5 months left of time and me and grey suddenly blitz'd the votes to hammer because that was not how it happened. The entire D1 I was pushing different people and never went for mal, and the case built on mal was weak + he wasn't even around to defend himself, so if anyone should be scum read it's you for targeting an easy town lynch like mal.

I think there was at least a day or so left for the deadline time but I can't be for certain. In your vote you even noted that he was on the site 30 minutes before so it sounded to me like he was semi-around. But humor me here and put yourself in my shoes. You are town, you just lead a wagon on a lurksack that flipped town. Is the wagon all town? Why? If not who should I think is scum on the wagon?

[Fire Assassin]

Site wide V/LA till Sunday.

[Foxbird]

Site wide V/LA till Sunday.

Noted!

[ironstove]

First of all, that mal wagon was last second so I chose to lynch him rather than have a no lynch, so please don't try to frame the votes like there was 5 months left of time and me and grey suddenly blitz'd the votes to hammer because that was not how it happened. The entire D1 I was pushing different people and never went for mal, and the case built on mal was weak + he wasn't even around to defend himself, so if anyone should be scum read it's you for targeting an easy town lynch like mal.

I think there was at least a day or so left for the deadline time but I can't be for certain. In your vote you even noted that he was on the site 30 minutes before so it sounded to me like he was semi-around. But humor me here and put yourself in my shoes. You are town, you just lead a wagon on a lurksack that flipped town. Is the wagon all town? Why? If not who should I think is scum on the wagon?

Thor scum, that's all I know.

LMK possibly scum.

Lowell and alpaca so fucking lurky that I think there is 1 scum in the team

Also you + aron are scummy as fuck.

Yes, I know that's more than 3.

[ironstove]

Also, the site was down for me for like the past 2-3 days, am I the only person who got the downtime? I see posts that happened in the last 24 hours, so I find that really bizarre.