Mini Normal 1833 - Game Over!

[Tere]

Sorry guys, a migraine is kicking my arse. I'll catch up tomorrow.

JarJar, have I played with you before at Teamliquid?

[Tere]

I've played one game at teamliquid before replacing out. I played with a player with a Jarjarbinks handle. My username was Tere.

I want to know if this is you or not because it's affecting my read on you.

[Tere]

Right, so I need to head out to Manchester overnight. Spent a couple of hours working on ISOs. Will have a few hours tomorrow before regular weekend V/LA hits. Next week should be better.

Right now this game is making me feel like

NKs

Looking at Lowell's ISO 557 raises questions for me about shannon, Jarjar and Titus, although he has a strong enough scumread on JeanDarc that it could just be that. Personally I've seen plenty of NKs be for threat reasons, and Not Mafia gave up so quickly Day 2, I can't believe they were just protecting Jean. Lowell seems to have played before / have some connection to Titus, so it could be that, although I am also interested in his interaction with Shannon at 126.

Chaos' 422 also points to shannon - also reminds me I don't like shannon's reads list at 416. 518 and 607 and 616 more pressure on shannon. As is 730

Yup, I would be happy to vote shannon based on the NKs alone.

Scumbags

Not much in JeanDarc's filter - bit of a soft push on Blix at 49 makes me feel a bit better about that slot. However, in 87 he says " Blix seems sus but I haven't seen much content and follow-up to questions posed at him. Would rather give time for him to respond (if he ever does, hope he breaks the lurking) than put him at L-1." which looks to me a lot like scum telling other scum to get the fuck into the thread. Scum points for Blix. He also pokes at Thor's predecessor in the same post. Question to shannon at 120 could also be coaching. Ugh. Overall he reads as noobscum frustrated at scum teammates' lack of activity.
I am currently WIFOMing over Not_Mafia's interaction with Thor and the vote at 595 but Thor's post at 611 looks OK. Not_Mafia's Day 2 is so I don't give a fuck on replacing into a doomed slot I reckon hard bussing is pretty likely.

Blix Thor and shannon look less good from this.

Where I am at after an ISO dive

Town

Twoface

Twoface is definitely my biggest townread. Even with the funny coinflip gimmick (which JeanDarc cast shade at) his ISO looks probing from the word go. It's a body of work read. 406 cracked me up though. I think 519 suggests that the coin flip thing shouldn't be detrimental to town. I think. 533 suggests he will break character if necessary anyway. Irritation at eagersnake looks genuine.

Lil Uzi Vert

is a strong town toneread for me - basically as I was reading through the thread they kept on saying exactly what I was thinking and their suspicions were aligning with mine, e.g. 109 and 128. I liked 429. I don't agree with 706.

JarJar

Scumread by Lowell. I need to sort this slot properly but I am running out of time. From ISOing like the wind I like him though now I am not distracted by thinking he is someone else. Like 422. Yeah, like the ISO in general. He can go above the line.

Thor

Weird prod by JeanDarc at predecessor slot in 87 but otherwise predecessor null. Like the immediate hated claim, very sensible. In general Thor's ISO has a lot of probing of other's thoughts and reads which I like a lot - decent coaching to people on pulling out their thought processes which I would expect from an experienced player and looks protown. Null on Jean at 423 and 459. Support of Jean at 540 looks a little like trying to shift that wagon. Hmm. I don't get the disconnect with the support of Jean at 589 and voting not_mafia at 590. The interaction with N_M at 598 and 560 looks a bit trolly, could be overconfident scum? I like his discussion of the snakehammer though although I don't agree that it makes snake town. More support for N_M at 647. I like 679. Back and forth with TwoFace is something I have just seen him do as town with Antihero in League. Day 3 play is generally decent. If there wasn't support of Jean in Thor's ISO I'd probably have him as solid town. I'm probably doing a burden of proficiency thing as well. Stick him near the line. Ugh.

----------- line of acceptable towniness for ToDay

Titus

Scumread by Lowell, who seemed to have a connection with her. Scumread the Martha slot as I was reading through. Lowell (who knows her apparently) was scumreading her. I find Titus inscrutable at the best of times but I don't like the park on N_M yesterday. I think it could be a bus.

eagersnake

Ugh. Entry play looks a lot like Metal Sonic "too scummy to be scum" shenanigans. Flooding the thread like that is anti town. Lolhammer is anti town. Disappearing Day 2 after his apology I no likey.

Blix

JeanDarc's 87 looks a lot like scum coaching. Weak ISO. Selfvoting shenanigans, ugh. Not buying 728 as a townslip.

shannon

Scumread by Lowell and ChaosOmega. Poss scum coaching by JeanDarc. Weak ISO in general although she wakes up a bit toDay when under pressure. Support of Blix at 146.

Out of time. Will pick up on this tomorrow. Leave me questions.

[Tere]

I only have one thing to say to Tere, which is that she needs to start thinking a outside the box. All of her reads - and everyone's reads, it seems - posit me as scum and then go from there to find other scum based on my interactions.

What I want is for all of you to re-think this. Not because I think it will save me from being lynched, but because you've got the time to do it today. Use the time. Imagine that I've already flipped town. What would knowing that tell you about who is actually scum here? Who will you expect to be the night kill, based on my flip?

I haven't been a stellar townie this game, and if someone else was in my position I'd expect them to be lynched too. But the least I can do is make sure we actually get *something* from this day, other than a narrative that will need to be re-thought tomorrow.

Hi folks, I need to do a couple of RL things then will have time to catch up for a few hours.

@shannon re: the bolded, I am completely fascinated by how you came to this conclusion. Care to fill me in?

[Tere]

If you guys mean 1013, 1028 and 1038 I think that could equally come from demoralised scum.

Caught up and of my lynch pool, Titus is the least scummy but both she and Thor are havering at the edge of my lynch pool. I'd be happy to lynch in Eager, Blix and Shannon. I could well see scum Shannon being demoralised at an absent slot if Blix is scum after N_M's flip. Sometimes scum teams just aren't that strong, y'know?

The shift from shannon's "lynch is not going to happen" at 986 to the last post also looks like a weird about shift to me. Like she's given up. She's asking everyone else to solve the game when she "flips town" but isn't really contributing to that herself. I read 986 as softing a power role but now she's demoralised at having two votes. Huh?

Also another thought - is there any way to test Thor's hated claim without actually lynching him? Like taking him to L-2 and seeing the vote result?

[Tere]

Answering my own question!

I just looked at the wiki and Hated isn't listed in the the standard Mafiawiki entry for forum games http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Normal_Game, and initially it was unclear to me from the Hated entry at http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Hated if it's allowed under Normal rules.

I think it is covered under the bit in the Normal ruleset that states "New/variant roles may be included in limited number (no more than 1 in a Mini, 2 in a Large), and should be based on the usual role mechanics: Killing, Protecting, Investigating, Blocking, Voting, Enabling and Communication." though.

What I also discovered is that it does look from the wiki that the role can be pro-Town or anti-Town. I had been assuming Hated was automatically pro-Town.

Play advice is "It is debatable whether it is better to not claim Hated Townie. By not claiming you are opening yourself up to getting run up to L-1 and thus unexpectedly lynched; by claiming you are making yourself a policy lynch on the Day before LyLo." so I guess you don't get a notification of him Hated in the way that I thought, anyway.

We're not at LyLo but I thought I'd better point it out.

[Tere]

Since 2009?

I don't have a great feeling about this

[Tere]

That whooshing noise you hear is Thor plummetting down my reads list.

VOTE: Thor665

[Tere]

Since 2009, JarJar? I am really uncomfortable with his claim now.

I have about 20 mins before my weekend V/LA.

[Tere]

It's a role that's not been in the Normal queue since 2009?

Just seems very unlikely to me. Hated might have been designed to make everyone back off.

It can also be a scum role from the wiki.

(incidentally @TwoFace could you show your workings for the 2009 date please?)

[Tere]

I really don't know what to do.

[Tere]

@ JarJar maybe he's not lying. Scum can have negative utility roles too. I thought it was only a town role. I'd been giving him a lot of cred for it subconsciously I think.

Anyway. It's 5 to lynch ATM. With Hated, that's 4 if he's telling the truth. It's too risky to leave my vote on over the weekend, if he's town and one other town votes scum could just pile on.

VOTE: Unvote

He needs to be gone before LyLo though. And I am still bothered by his support of Jean.

[Tere]

OK I really do need to go. Will try to make it LA not V but hubby is home at the weekend and gets pissed off if I mafia too much. No walls.

@mod V/LA till Monday

[Tere]

I've been thinking more about the Hated thing and I don't think it makes sense for scum given N_M flipped as a Goon. Wouldn't the other scum have to be super powerful or something to counteract, and that seems pretty swingy? I guess I am assuming 3 since 4 seems too many and we don't have a sniff of a third party it appears. I don't think it makes sense as a fake claim now I've read the correct play is to lynch before Lylo either. So I guess I believe Thor. JarJar and TwoFace also look pretty damn town from that exchange.

I don't understand why shannon doesn't want to give us her reads.

@Thor re you and Titus, no, I'm not assuming one of you is town one scum or anything like that. You were just lurking at the midpoint in my reads.

[Tere]

Feeling better about the Blix / House slot. I don't get why he wants to kill my two strongest townreads, but whatever. I don't want to lynch him toDay. I'd rather see what he can do. I like his "well I reckon I am going to be lynched but fuck it let's get some work done" attitude.

Town

TwoFace
JarJar
LilUziVert

Don't want to lynch toDay:

House

Town by claim / balance but needs to go before Lylo because Hated:

Thor

------------ line of acceptable towniness

Titus - sorry Thor but I just don't see the obvtown here and your argument seems to be something something vote count analysis which I don't find compelling, particularly as you seem to think someone on the N_M wagon was bussing. Plus I know I was scumreading the previous occupant of that slot.
Eager
Shannon

I need to dig through these three ISOs tomorrow when I have time but at the moment I think shannon is the scummiest.

[Tere]

PEdit: No. Let me find my list and I'll link you to the individual posts that should have clued you in as to what my reads are.


***
I think this might be going somewhere.

VOTE: Jar Jar

oh shannon why didn't you announce L-2? This looks opportunistic as fuck. I no likey Titus hop on the wagon either.

FOS: Titus

VOTE: shannon

L-2. Also JarJar is at L-2.

[Tere]

Reading through Day 1 again.

@Titus I can't see anything scummy in JarJar's play no matter how hard I squint apart from possibly 32 33 and 37. I did scumread Martha though.

Blix and Shannon still look scummy. Eager looks scummy.

I'm not liking how House seems to be pulling an anything but Shannon wagon routine ATM. I prefer Shannon to Eager in part because of this. I am not voting JarJar.

[Tere]

Shannon's unvote is ewww. I think it's House / Shannon. Lemme find the vote count.

[Tere]

VOTE: House

That's L-2 by my reckoning. Stuck at page 31 on my reread but I have found very little redeemable in those two slots.

[Tere]

I am feeling particularly meh about VCA at the moment since spectating this game http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=67829 where the final scum very nearly coasted to victory based on Day 1 wagon analysis. I know it works for some people, and you do you, but I'm not really feeling it right now.

[Tere]

Just to expand on my V/LA notice, I am heading into my usual weekend V/LA later today, but next week I have to go to my Dad's where there is no internet at all until Friday, then I will be on normal weekend V/LA. I will try and keep up as much as I can, no walls though! Apologies, it's a pain when we have another empty slot but it's a trip that has to happen.

[Tere]

I've been rereading Refraction Mafia and holy shit Thor is good as scum, so I am feeling worse about him again. http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=62181.

Feeling better about the House slot now we have a replacement. Shannon looks better too, she's perked up and is doing stuff. I'd missed House putting Shannon to L-1 the first time through, but I agree they don't make sense as a scum team with hammer McHammer boy in town.

This game is still feeling like Inorganic Chemistry for me, but lemme help you out with that wagon.

VOTE: eagersnake

[Tere]

Ok, so the RL stuff I have going on is kicking my arse, so much so that I really don't have the mojo for mafia. Sorry about the timing with all the other replaces but that's life I'm afraid.

@Clumsy please replace me

Good luck town!

[Tere]

Well done town!

IDK, Titus, I liked the mason play - I was noodling about Twoface being a cop in scum thread and then reread and was "ohhhh". They played strong town and tried to gamesolve. Having seen town masons throw the game in the past because "we're conftown and won't have to do anything lol" I thought their play was refreshing.

Props to Shannon for Day 3 play. Went from lynchbait to obvtowning once you got out of your funk <3

Props to Uzi for a good (first IIRC) scum game. Mostly caught by POE. Well done scumbuddy, there are cupcakes for you in the dead thread.

Thor, always a pleasure. Sorry you were townreading my slot for the replace. If you look in the scumboard you will see me having a dramatic fret to Clumsy about it.

Happy for scumtopic to be released.

[Tere]

I just want to shoutout Tere by the way. I felt if she didn't sub out we would have won this game.

Awww <3 Trouble is I am really only getting spoons back now from my mission of DOOM Tm so my contribution would have been too minimal to save things I think. It was fairer to the gamestate and everyone to replace out. You might have gotten a scum titan. Them's the luck of the draw!

[Tere]

I am also very happy with the masses of WIFOM I managed to generate with my Hated wibble. I really didn't expect that to grow legs and run the way it did, lol.

[Tere]

I am also very happy with the masses of WIFOM I managed to generate with my Hated wibble. I really didn't expect that to grow legs and run the way it did, lol.

It is the actual site policy hated gets lynched before lylo.

Yes, I know, it's exactly why I went with it. Thor was the player I was most concerned about. Generate some WIFOM and have people realise that that's the default position. Free lynch if we managed to get that far (and we nearly did, shannon was at L-1 for a while).

[Tere]

I am also very happy with the masses of WIFOM I managed to generate with my Hated wibble. I really didn't expect that to grow legs and run the way it did, lol.

Tere, I love your attitude being happy and appreciating things despite a loss, whereas me and some others are quite disgusted and angry with our win
You'll probably outlive us.

Ehhh, I am much more about personal performance than win rate. I've coasted through as scum when town were being toxic and found that deeply unsatisfactory, and given I have a tendency to replace in I have played scum more than the average I'd guess. My favourite games are when town synchs well - more fun to play as town and a better challenge as scum.

[Tere]

I thought town still had another role.

So did we! We were contemplating a NK on Titus even though she was being helpful to us in thread, because we thought there was a free range investigative still out there.

[Tere]

So what happens with dragon? He replaced out and joined another game which according to thor is against the rules

Pre-empting Clumsy here, but basically he joined a mishmash game, and that's not regarded the same as joining into another mafia game because it's more casual. I fretted about it on the scumboard and Clumsy talked about it with Nexus and he said play on no rules broken.

correct me of course Clumsy if I've misinterpreted but that's I think the outcome?

FTR I offered to be modkilled if they wanted to.

[Tere]

Or not preempting Clumsy! *fistbump*

[Tere]

Agreed. It depends on why a user subs out that determines if it's an infraction.

I debated subbing out but decided that if JarJar was scum I was the only one even trying to make sure he didn't slip unnoticed. So I put up with the insults.

*hugs* I am sorry you felt bad. I like you and enjoy playing with you even though I will exploit the shit out of your left field reads as scum. Maybe just try and step back from the game more if you feel yourself tunnelling?

That was a longass Day 3 with no feedback though so help me. Scum were holding hands and wishing for the day to be over too!

[Tere]

Dead/Spectator thread here: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p8395590

Masons, are you two okay with yours being released?

Scum?

Sure, I'm probably a jerk at some point but I can live with that

[Tere]

Agreed. It depends on why a user subs out that determines if it's an infraction.

I debated subbing out but decided that if JarJar was scum I was the only one even trying to make sure he didn't slip unnoticed. So I put up with the insults.

*hugs* I am sorry you felt bad. I like you and enjoy playing with you even though I will exploit the shit out of your left field reads as scum. Maybe just try and step back from the game more if you feel yourself tunnelling?

That was a longass Day 3 with no feedback though so help me. Scum were holding hands and wishing for the day to be over too!

Yup, and I tried. No one was talking though. Sure there was posting, but nothing there for me to re-evaluate with. The only one who tried was Thor but he was wedded to Eagersnake scum.

It was only TwoFace who I had issue with.

Everyone else was great, even JarJar who came close to being townie despite TwoFace.

Honestly if you feel stuck like that it's always good to do an open minded reread. Just preaching what I practice. It's amazing how many times I will see other stuff, almost even more so for a hard read.

<3 Titus

[Tere]

FWIW I read the thread as if town when scum too. I wasn't joking when I said in the scum thread if town I would have thrown my hands up in the air and said bar Thor, Jarjar Twoface and Uzi you were all a bunch of scumlords! Well, Shannon obvtowned herself later.

[Tere]

You're catchup post changed my mind on your slot actually. I really liked it

That's why I do it! All you need to do is be more towny than the lynchbait town.

I'm kinda sad my replacement tanked the slot and noped out. I don't know what that was all about.

Real life over mafia, unfortunately.

I think Uzi can feel happy about his performance. If I'd have started in the slot I would have hard bussed JeanDarc I think because I basically read about 2 posts and went "wow that's a scumfuck". And N_M didn't help. Given the lack of investigatives that might have gotten me to endgame. The Walking Dead game I linked where Smart cruised to Day 6 IIRC and only lost to a Desperado was quite genuine.

[Tere]

For example, here's a game I replaced out of due to time constraints as scum, my replacement and the other scum tunnelled on each other and coasted to victory (IIRC, it's been a while)

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=64339

It's goodstrat.

[Tere]

OMG someone hammered! And we won!!! YAAAAAY my first town win, despite early craptasticness on my part. Thanks everyone <3

Well done! you pulled through in the end, because you came from your funk on Day 3 to pull yourself up and look gamesolvy. Never give up as town. You know your own role. You are the only role that can be trusted 100% in your eyes. You did the right thing by going "ok so we lynch me and I flip town, what next". Good tactic.

The only thing I would say is always check vote status before you vote regardless of alignment, because you made a couple of mistakes not declaring L-2 / L-1 and it's an easy thing for scumfucks like me to jump on.

[Tere]

Tere was super nice in the Mafia thread, now I have the feels.

Awww

[Tere]

You're a really good player tere. Very refreshing indeed

Aww, thanks!

I really don't feel I have the time to play well though. Or as well as I'd like. Occasionally I get the itch and crack and replace in but am really better off spectating.

[Tere]

TwoFace, I don't want to be mean, so I'm just going to say that perhaps you should spend some time familiarizing yourself with the site rules before you play again.

Tere, I get I didn't say why I replaced out in the scum thread nor in the game (I was busy, btw), and I get that TwoFace said 'game' which confused things, but I hope that next time instead of jumping to vilify someone, you'll at least wait to give them a chance to explain themselves. If I remember correctly, my activity which wasn't great to begin with was already trickling off. I think offering yourself up to be modkilled as punishment is extreme and in my opinion it's not your place, it's the mod's, even if I had done anything wrong, because the mod can at least talk to me, list mods can talk to me, you cannot. I don't know if you ever made the assumption that I could have integrity and that I could have been just busy, and that kind of hurt a bit. But I understand in the circumstances it was hard to do, and I acknowledge that replacing out is done with a heavy heart, it's not the greatest thing to do to a game I said I could commit to, though in this game I wasn't the only one to break that covenant.

I am sorry I wasn't better, though. You and Uzi deserved a scumslot that was halfway decent, and I applaud your ability to make that slot salvageable, you and Uzi played well.

Thanks for the game, mod, sorry again for the replace out.

Hey, sorry if you are upset with me. FTR I wasn't trying to vilify you. I'd seen discussion about you replacing out for strategic reasons in the game thread being posited, I had Thor townreading me because that would have been site bannable if my slot had, and I was in a difficult situation. I'd seen you had replaced into something and I've never played in mishmash so had no idea if it was casual or not /what the site rules are. I honestly think flagging my concerns to the mod and offering to be modkilled if they and the listmod thought it was the right way to go was the best solution. Yes of course they can talk to you but that is up to them to make that choice. Offering to do it isn't influencing that decision, it was showing I harboured no ill will if that was the decision they came to. It wasn't attempting to influence that decision and if that did come across in my choice of words I apologise.

Clearly they did not, it was all good, and I don't regret the ask because I felt way more comfortable and supported in that slot knowing they were both AOK with your play and it was fine under site rules. I asked for that as much for my own peace of mind as anything. I really grok being busy, I genuinely do, and since you have clearly read the scum thread you know I had a very genuine reason for replacing out too. I also have had accusations about replacing out for strategic reasons in that situ e.g. Refraction Mafia which I linked in game thread and I know it's really annoying.

Please take it as not a criticism of your play in any way. But I did feel more comfortable having made that check with the mods and it did help my play having done that. I am not doubting your integrity in any manner, OK?

*virtual olive branch*

[Tere]

It's all good, Tere, and I shouldn't have left any room for doubt. I just wanted to come here and explain myself just in case anyone thought I was a ponce (though I'm not sure what that means).

All good here too *hugs* plz collect cupcakes from the deadboard TIA

[Tere]

scum cupcakes:

[Tere]

Town cupcakes!

(cupcake imagery was being weird today, for realz)

[Tere]

Nah scum cupcakes

Tere, just saying if we ever play together I'm going to always think you're scum cause you are so towny as scum.

<3 that's the idea and I am fine with that!

(I am meta - able though, from psychological drive. I think so anyway. Good luck )