Mini Normal #1838 - Game Over

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Post Post #2046  (isolation #200)  » Mon Oct 24, 2016 5:33 pm

In post 2029, boring wrote:
In post 2008, nn30 wrote:Town would be attempting to work with me and get me on their side. Because. Ya know. We need to work together to find scum.
In post 2019, implosion wrote:Scum would be attempting to work with you and get on your side. Because. Ya know. They need to not die to win the game.
You guys are doing that thing again where you're projecting based on personality. Some people manipulate through cooperation, others, through hissy fits (AtE). Unless you guys know how Penguin plays, you have no way of knowing whether these weird tantrums are AI/NAI. Better to look at motivation.

Which brings us to why meta is important.
In post 2010, Zoronos wrote:I think we're in meta land again kinda.
It helps you sort between personality and pathology. It's easy to say that meta is crap when you don't know any of the players (or you want them to not meta-read you), but it has its value.

:nerd:


What's the motivation for PP calling me a liar?

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Post Post #2054  (isolation #201)  » Mon Oct 24, 2016 8:15 pm

My feeling is that he was trying to subvert my credibility.

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Post Post #2062  (isolation #202)  » Mon Oct 24, 2016 9:40 pm

In post 1972, PenguinPower wrote:This is funny. Sorry, just want to call this one out for endgame (and as a blatant lie). None of my scum games have been anywhere close to this one. Feel free to meta me, anyone.


It was this, actually. Calling me a liar is what moved my weak scum read to a strong one. The only reason for me to lie would be if I were scum. Calling me a liar is implying that Penguin scum reads me. Scum reading me flies in the face of what everyone else in this town, except for Shadow_Step, has done to this point in the game. Either Penguin is town and not paying attention, or this was a scum slip.

Since then, Penguin has been misconstruing why I scum read him strongly enough to vote him.

To my eye:

Boring asks me what I think his motivation calling me a liar is (2052).
I say it's to subvert my credibility (2054).

And Penguin chooses to respond by pointing to posts which I never said contained him attempting to do this (2061).

And he still hasn't answered why he chose to call me a liar. After I've repeatedly asked him.

Ditch the meta argument. It isn't the source of the strength of my read on him.

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Post Post #2064  (isolation #203)  » Mon Oct 24, 2016 9:51 pm

In post 2063, PenguinPower wrote:So, your read is false...that makes it a lie, qualifiers aside. Sorry if that triggers you. Defend it then.

Also, it doesn't mean that I scum read you. If I did, I would vote you. Though your reaction to that belief is interesting.



False =/= lie.

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Post Post #2066  (isolation #204)  » Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:20 pm

In post 2065, PenguinPower wrote:Even an honest lie is a lie. Back up your statement or recant.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie

"A lie is a statement that the stating party believes to be false and that is made with the intention to deceive."

Quit pretending to not know what a lie is.

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Post Post #2068  (isolation #205)  » Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:39 pm

Yep. Still think the reaction case is good enough.

The distinction is important - if lying didn't imply intent to decieve, my case wouldn't exist.

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Post Post #2072  (isolation #206)  » Tue Oct 25, 2016 8:32 am

By accident.

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Post Post #2111  (isolation #207)  » Tue Oct 25, 2016 1:03 pm

In post 2080, Shadow_step wrote:NN is prob scum


You are 100% off your rocker.

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Post Post #2114  (isolation #208)  » Tue Oct 25, 2016 2:36 pm

In post 397, Shadow_step wrote:Like nn30 is ob town after that. Unless he is a very good scum player. I'll have to check his games to make sure.


Soooooo... How does someone go from ob town to not?

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Post Post #2121  (isolation #209)  » Tue Oct 25, 2016 6:44 pm

In post 2119, Zoronos wrote:So, unless this is multiball and the mod is taking pity on us and I hit the secondary kill, I doubt LUV's claim


Unpack this for me. Hit the secondary kill?

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Post Post #2172  (isolation #210)  » Wed Oct 26, 2016 6:11 pm

In post 2171, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:Lynch within in boring, Grendal, Penguin, and Shadow or if not lynch Zoro because that's where my vote is going to be parked on.



This isn't even the correct version of Gamma's plan.

Gamma's "outside LUV / Zoro" grouping is myself, Grendel, PP, Prism, and Boring. He specifically said to leave out the likely town Shadow.

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Post Post #2173  (isolation #211)  » Wed Oct 26, 2016 6:11 pm

@Gamma - when did Dier become a town read and why?

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Post Post #2189  (isolation #212)  » Wed Oct 26, 2016 8:27 pm

Gamma - can you link me to when LUV got mislynched previously? I remember you saying something about it happening in the last game you were in with him.

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Post Post #2205  (isolation #213)  » Mon Oct 31, 2016 12:38 pm

So Implosion is conf town (assuming we don't have a cop giving bad results).

@Zoronos - why didn't you protect Gamma with your jailkeeper ability?

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Post Post #2215  (isolation #214)  » Mon Oct 31, 2016 1:50 pm

In post 2208, Zoronos wrote:
In post 2205, nn30 wrote:So Implosion is conf town (assuming we don't have a cop giving bad results).

@Zoronos - why didn't you protect Gamma with your jailkeeper ability?


How do you know I didn't?


Well, he's dead. It's the solution Occam's razor would support.

@Shadow - please provide a case against me.

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Post Post #2216  (isolation #215)  » Mon Oct 31, 2016 1:52 pm

@penguin - please provide a case against me.

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Post Post #2217  (isolation #216)  » Mon Oct 31, 2016 1:54 pm

The kill also suggests that Boring is town. She spent most of day one scum reading LUV. Unless she's scum of the 'let's bus on day one before pressure has built' variety, then she's actually just town.

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Post Post #2221  (isolation #217)  » Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:07 pm

In post 125, Shadow_step wrote:Grendel, you mind answering your own questions?

Also I think LUV is scum and everyone should be voting there.


Damn it Shadow.

I wanted you to be scum after you naked vote me to start the day - but apparently this is just your style.

The above quote scum reads LUV so early that you either plan your scum games well in advance (in which cause, hats off to you please take your win you deserved it) or you're town.

For the sake of argument and clarity - two things could be happening here.

1) You're scum who planned a fake claim which successfully got Eager killed as well as planted fake scum reads on your scum buddies to throw off suspicion down the line.

or

2) You're town behaving normally.

I'm gonna have to go with 2 here.

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Post Post #2222  (isolation #218)  » Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:10 pm

In post 2218, Zoronos wrote:She was likely town for her near-constant pressure on LUV yesterday. I owe her an apology. The kill selection is irrelevant to her towniness.

The kill suggests that the scum have a roleblocker or a strongman (or just correctly out-meta'ed me, or are in swing for the fences YOLO mode). But I hate NK speculation, so that's as far as I'm willing to go.


I never said anything about kill selection. Why do you bring it up here?

Are you saying you jailed Gamma and were role blocked then?

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Post Post #2223  (isolation #219)  » Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:12 pm

In post 2220, PenguinPower wrote:
In post 2216, nn30 wrote:@penguin - please provide a case against me.


Ok. This is going to be a long one so:

Spoiler: The Case
You're scum.


Well that was illuminating.

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Post Post #2225  (isolation #220)  » Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:13 pm

@Shadow - please explain your read on Prism as well.

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Post Post #2226  (isolation #221)  » Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:15 pm

In post 2224, PenguinPower wrote:
In post 2222, nn30 wrote:I never said anything about kill selection. Why do you bring it up here?


In post 2217, nn30 wrote:The kill also suggests that Boring is town.


Ahh, thanks for pointing that out.

I misspoke.

My brain was somewhere else while my hands typed.

"The kill" is supposed to mean LUV lynch. We "killed" him. You'll see that substitution makes sense in the context of what I also said in 2217. Full quote for those interested.

In post 2217, nn30 wrote:The kill also suggests that Boring is town. She spent most of day one scum reading LUV. Unless she's scum of the 'let's bus on day one before pressure has built' variety, then she's actually just town.


Keep in mind I'm new to this forum. This is only my second game. Screwing up the lingo is gonna happen.

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Post Post #2229  (isolation #222)  » Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:22 pm

In post 2227, PenguinPower wrote:Should I tunnel you for the rest of the day given your incorrect use of a word?


>.>

If you're the vengeful type, sure.

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Post Post #2230  (isolation #223)  » Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:23 pm

@Penguin - why was your vote on me to start the day. It predated your catching my misuse of a word.

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Post Post #2235  (isolation #224)  » Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:29 pm

Coincidence.

I've been raising hell all game.

Please, go through and find scummy reasons for me to be tunneling Gamma, Boring, Shadow, you, and briefly Implosion.

I'm continuing my re-read of LUV as well. This was early enough that I'm inclined to clear you with it.

In post 200, podoboq wrote:
Official Vote Count 1.05
LynchingWith 13 votes in play, it takes 7 to lynch.

Lil Uzi Vert (3): Shadow_step, implosion, PenguinPower
Zoronos (3): DierFire, MariaR, boring
boring (1): eagerSnake
MariaR (1): Lil Uzi Vert
nn30 (1): nn30
implosion (1): Gamma Emerald

Not Voting (3): Grendel, Zoronos, Slandaar


Deadline: (expired on 2016-10-18 15:22:00)


Unless you are also the early bus type.

Are you the early bussing type?

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Post Post #2239  (isolation #225)  » Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:42 pm

In post 2236, boring wrote:who are you addressing here? ^^^


Penguin - sorry.

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Post Post #2241  (isolation #226)  » Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:56 pm

In post 2238, Zoronos wrote:Also, I would recommend ignoring RVS-era votes on LUV. I find scum love to vote scumbuddies during RVS or similar.
If it never materialized into anything resembling a real train (or if it did become one and they promptly looked for reasons to hop off), in my mind it is no credit.



Bear with me here.

I've basically gone back on all my strongest scum reads this game. After this game is over, I'm going to have to have some long hard talks with people on how to correctly scum hunt because I very cleary am not doing it correctly.

Would you be convinced by this vote analysis, then? I'm looking specifically at the LUV votes and Prism. We could also add boring to this but you and I are in agreement with her it seems and Gamma is dead so I'm leaving him out of it.

In post 1666, podoboq wrote:
Official Vote Count 2.05
LynchingWith 11 votes in play, it takes 6 to lynch.

Gamma Emerald (3): Shadow_step, Zoronos, Dierfire
Lil Uzi Vert (3): boring, Gamma Emerald, Prism
boring (1): implosion

Not Voting (4): Lil Uzi Vert, PenguinPower, Grendel, nn30


Deadline: (expired on 2016-10-30 12:31:00)


This is the first vote count that includes Prism voting LUV. His vote stayed there the rest of the day (even though there were a number of opportunities to hop off). Is that enough to clear Prism?



I also see what you're saying with RVS era votes. The Penguin vote is from page nine - I believe we were out of RVS by then.

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Post Post #2245  (isolation #227)  » Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:20 pm

@Prism - what's your current read on implosion? I think I asked this before and didn't get a response.

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Post Post #2247  (isolation #228)  » Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:31 pm

@Zoronos - I'll explain my reasoning once Prism answers. Answering you would defeat the purpose of my asking at all.

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Post Post #2265  (isolation #229)  » Mon Oct 31, 2016 10:13 pm

In post 2264, Zoronos wrote:I already went over why this is likely, and it has nothing to do with you and everything to do with the fact that it was Gamma that was killed. The short version is no sane scum team kills Gamma over me without some jail breaking ability.


I'm outta the loop here. Boring mentioned it too - which makes me think I've missed something.

If not Gamma due to WIFOM arguments, why you?

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Post Post #2266  (isolation #230)  » Mon Oct 31, 2016 10:22 pm

@Zoronos - after 2264, if you're scum I'm scared for all of us btw.

@Grendel - please check my 1971. It's the best counter I have to the vote analysis you've put up (which looks pretty bad admittedly - if you're scum A+ for finding this little nugget).

@Town - does Grendel hopping on feel opportunistic to anyone else? Or does his case on me feel legit? Penguin don't answer - I already know what you'll say.

The only thing stopping me from voting Grendel right now is that he's my counter wagon. I don't want to hop on someone I previously town read just because he's voting me.

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Post Post #2268  (isolation #231)  » Mon Oct 31, 2016 10:29 pm

Actually I take it back.

Grendel that vote count analysis is a load of BS.

You're ignoring how contentious the Eager wagon was. Gamma hopped on and off at least a hundred times.

If I were scum I could have hopped right onto the Eager wagon with another six people and blended in quite nicely thank you very much.

[vote]Grendel[/b]

Counter wagon be damned.

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Post Post #2269  (isolation #232)  » Mon Oct 31, 2016 10:29 pm

Errr....

VOTE: Grendel

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Post Post #2274  (isolation #233)  » Mon Oct 31, 2016 11:09 pm

@Zoro - or trigger-happy town play. Or bad town play. Which, based on how I haven't seemed to hit the mark with any of my reads, it's probably just bad town play.

I see your point though about it being scummy play. Thanks coach.

I did an ISO of Grendel - and got more town pings.

More proof I don't actually know what I'm trying to look for in identifying scum.

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Post Post #2279  (isolation #234)  » Mon Oct 31, 2016 11:49 pm

@Prism - Cool, thanks for answering my question.

Please ISO boring and look for her interactions with LUV. Does her scumreading / pushing for his lynch a significant portion of day one and all of day two change your read on her?

p-edit - not even how early she wanted LUV on day one?

@Zoro - I asked prism about implosion because I thought Gamma had the potential to give incorrect cop reads (crazy cop or w/e that role is). I now realize that doesn't make sense since we have Gamma's role now. :/

I'll give you more on Grendel tomorrow. I need to go to bed.

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Post Post #2295  (isolation #235)  » Tue Nov 01, 2016 10:23 am

In post 2294, Shadow_step wrote:I've been giving boring a free pass so far because people seemed to be a soft target and people voting her because of her previous games as scum.
When I attacked LUV on day 1, boring had a "problem" with it.
I think one of [boring, prism] has to be scum because of LUV's readlist.


I think you're reading way too much into LUV's read list.

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Post Post #2296  (isolation #236)  » Tue Nov 01, 2016 12:42 pm

Let's talk about Grendel. Last night I flip flopped on my stance on him a bunch. Truth is I just don't know what he his and my uncertainty is reflected in my flip flopping. I'm going to ISO him and LUV and see if anything that happens strikes me. I will not edit anything I write down as I go through this process - the intention is to show you my thought process and reactions to the ISO as I do it. I will make a conclusion statement at the very bottom.

Spoiler:
In post 36, Grendel wrote:Hi, as this is my first post I'd like to say that I look forward to matching wits with you all!


His post of the game - so I'll come right out and acknowledge that this is thin. The way this is worded feels like a me vs. them mentality ("...matching wits with you all!") I read this as scum.

Spoiler:
I re-read his RQS analysis. Originally it felt towny (lots of effort) but on re-read it could also be scum faking content. I didn't quote it here for space reasons.


Spoiler:
In post 215, Grendel wrote:Zoronos: He is clearly underestimating my ability to read between the lines. He didn't submit answers to the set, but I value peoples reactions to RQS highly, and use them as part of my RQS analysis. I find that it is common for scum planning to go deep to try and play the “voice of reasoning”, they’ll either treat me like mislead town and correct me, or they’ll correct me while throwing a light scum read my way. Often the ones who choose to paint me as misleading scum are not going to push me. The ones opting to town read me will dig their heels in when I, or they, are questioned about their stance. Clearly Zoronos is falling into the first category. He insists RQS is pro-scum, throws out a light scum read my way, but doesn’t show any desire to push said scum read. In fact if appears that he is back tracking in his next post. If in this instance Zoronos is scum there is a good chance that he is the ‘leader’ of his posse, and that his scum buddies are less experienced players then he is. Scum.


His RQS analysis on Zorono is interesting. The bolded sentence slightly parallels my own interactions with Zoronos this game. 1) Zoro is absolutely being the voice of reason this game and 2) he's corrected my play a few times. This is interesting and makes me want to re-read Zoro. It's possible that Zoro / Grendel are a scum team and Zoro told Grendel his play style in scum chat - which is reflected here. A Zoro/Grendel team is possible to me since neither of them are in my hard town category at the moment.

Something else from his RQS analysis - of the 3 dead townies, Grendel had 2 of them pegged as town from RQS and one null. Of the dead scum, he had a null here as well. The lack of inaccuracy on these four is interesting. If Grendel flips scum at some point refer to this post - it may be useful. I think his scum partners would be in the town or null reads.


Spoiler:
In post 422, Grendel wrote:
In post 342, Zoronos wrote:
In post 302, Grendel wrote:Oh and, I'm about to get really busy on something, and won't be on tonight.

See you all tomorrow... evening?


Putting the answers to the random questions completely aside, can you point to why Penguin is scum, based on things he's posted in game?


His wagon on Lil Uzi Vert is easy. Lil is non contributing and anti town, but his play is a largely null tell for me because he did this exact same thing as town last time I played with him. Heck I, as scum, pushed to get Vert lynched with the same reason that Penguin is here. That Vert is “fence sitty and his lack of stances make him scum lordz”. Lil is a great wagon for scum!Penguin because he can push this wagon through with little consequence once Vert were to flip town.

His move to Gamma isn’t much better because Gamma is known for taking things at face value. Like Gamma is hard town reading, and defended me because I opened with RQS. This is because I played a game as scum where I didn’t open with RQS. When the reason I didn’t open had more to do with me subbing into a game with 20+ pages then my alignment. It’s the same thing with Vert, Gamma has an experience with town!Vert being fence sitty and non-contributory, so he thinks Vert is town here. Penguin’s biggest reason for voting Gamma is because Gamma tr Vert, everything else seems like that Penguin seems to find scum about Gamma looks like pretty normal Gamma play too honestly.

Basically Penguin has only pushed for wagons on easy players.

I also don’t care for announcing I’m town without explaining why. All the more awkward considering that he seemed to think i was scum, (or bad town), just one page earlier. I only posted a couple thought in between those points. I don't see how Penguin would have come to that conclusion as quickly as he did based solely on that. All I really did was defend my RQS, and tell Penguin that calling me "scum, or bad town" is an ugly knee jerk reaction. I could totally see Penguin as scum backing off because he decided I wasn't an easy lynch.


I think this singlehandedly removes Grendel/Penguin/LUV as a scum team. As scum I don't see myself putting myself and my two buddies in the same post with this much meat in it.

I've bolded Grendel's defense of LUV. At the time of this defense there were zero votes on LUV - making the likelihood of Grendel attempting to defend his scum partner higher than if LUV was about to be lyched. Relevantly, this also came after LUV's (in hindsight) terrible 246 where LUV fails to provide proof that he was trying to solve the game and instead summarizes what has already happened. Grendel still chose to defend him. Feels scum.


Spoiler:
In post 456, Grendel wrote:I've been trying to hunt for the whole team all at once so I can avoid tunnels.


This is an easy way to fake content as scum.


Spoiler:
In post 571, Grendel wrote:This is hard.

I'm beginning to wonder if I should look outside of these two for a bit.

In post 573, Grendel wrote:I guess I'm not reaching a conclusion tonight.


In post 573, Grendel wrote:I guess I'm not reaching a conclusion tonight.


These three quotes occurred 30 minutes apart. This is either really detail oriented scum who is methodically leaving breadcrumbs, or towny. This post feels towny to me.


Spoiler:
In post 604, Grendel wrote:@LUV Lets chat a bit:
How do you feel about the two leading wagons, as well as the individuals on them?
And if this were EoD which wagon would you join?
In this hypothetical situation where would you look next if the one you picked flipped scum? if they flipped town?

I want you to take more active stances. Your note taking, and your otherwise low key posting is not helping me get a hold on your alignment friend.


The only example I've found of LUV and Grendel directly interacting. LUV did not respond to it and Grendel didn't push him further.

Makes me feel like Grendel is town. If my scum partner asked me a question, I'd answer it because #teamwork. LUV could also have just missed it. Still, I'm leaning town Grendel on this this post/interaction.


Spoiler:
In post 1648, Grendel wrote:Luv looks worse in retrospect then I first thought.


LUV was tied for the largest wagon at two votes when Grendel said this. Scum testing the waters for a bus or town identifying a scum read? To me, I think Grendel feels towny here.


Spoiler:
In post 1710, Grendel wrote:Luv is all over the place and I'm having trouble pacing him. I definitely didn't like his hammer, or the unnatural transitions in his reads. I can't help feeling like it is all to easy though.


More thoughts on LUV. Feels appropriately cautious - bread crumb again and town again.


Spoiler:
In post 1798, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:I'm a little disturbed by Penguin's push on Zoro. It reads as if he's not been reading what Zoro been asking and thinking. Just skimming. Zoro has been sorting like a mad man and his conclusions and observations have been worth the read so far.


As I near the end of this ISO, my feelings on Grendel are leaning fairly hard town. Which brings me to needing a Zoro re-read. LUV fawning over Zoro here is definitely alignment indicative, I'm just not sure in what way. The first thing that comes to my mind is that LUV hard town read me a while back. Assuming LUV is consistent in his deception attempts, this makes me think Zoro is town rn.


Spoiler:
In post 1823, Grendel wrote:I'm okay with LUV getting lynched, but my top priority right now is Gamma.


Another post about LUV from Grendel with the "I'm okay with a lynch here, but I want to look elsewhere" feeling. Either he's prolifically leaving bread crumbs as scum or he's town.


@Grendel - please look at the following spoiler. It has stuff in it specifically for you.

Spoiler:
In post 1847, Grendel wrote:-The way the Penguin Power handles LUV feels off to me. I may need to look into this more in future.


In post 1959, Grendel wrote:Funnily enough I would like to see Penguin lynched now that Gamma is highly likely town. But I don't trust you at all. I mean I'd be just as content with yours as Penguin's lynch right now.


I'd like your current thoughts on these statements, Grendel, now that we know LUV was scum and Gamma was town.


Spoiler:
In post 2171, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:VOTE: Zoronos


Flailing scum are unlikely to go down by attempting to send votes to their scum buddy. Gives Zoro town points. Granted, Zoro feels intelligent enough to tell LUV to plant this seed once he recognied LUV was going to die for sure. Still, this gives Zoro town points in my eyes.


Conclusion:

I started this read with a bit of Scum!Grendel conf bias in action. As I went through the ISO, I found more and more reasons to town read him instead. The biggest one is that there are a number of thoughts about LUV which he posted which, if Grendel were scum, were deliberately placed bread crumbs. I may be underestimating scum skill levels on this site, but this level of foresight is unthinkable to my own abilities so I'm discounting it here.

Tangentially, I found a few reasons to town read Zoro whereas I had him as null before this.

That being said I think it's very important that we have a pretty locked and loaded consensus on Zoro being town. He is such a persuasive and logical voice that if he's scum, and he's misleading us, it would mean the game for us.

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Post Post #2297  (isolation #237)  » Tue Nov 01, 2016 12:55 pm

In post 2254, Grendel wrote:
In post 2235, nn30 wrote:Coincidence.

I've been raising hell all game.

Please, go through and find scummy reasons for me to be tunneling Gamma, Boring, Shadow, you, and briefly Implosion.


Would you do me a solid and quote your reasoning for tunneling each of these people? (I honestly don't feel like slogging through iso's tonight)

I can't speak for the others, but I seem to recall you were on the tail end of the Gamma wagon, and that your biggest point against him was his inability to keep his reads straight. Right?


I just spent 2 hrs on my last post (isoing you and LUV), so I'm going to wing this one from memory rather than quoting past me. I too do not want to slog through iso's.

Gamma - forgot his reads a whole bunch. A meta read on him where I found in his previous town games he didn't make an effort to state his town reads (which he did a lot of early in day one).

Boring - the easy flip on Eager snake is what did it for me. Once Shadow countered him, Eager dropped from high town read straight down to top scum read.

Shadow - I thought Shadow's conclusion that Eager couldn't be a town ascetic was based on too many unlikely assumptions. At the time, Shadow was assuming that 1) Eager was lying about being ascetic which means that 2) Eager chose to lie specifically about being town ascetic (instead of a more common role such as Miller) and 3) the mod ALSO gave Shadow the very same obscure role that Eager was choosing to lie about.

Instead of seeing the two of them as town, I chose to see Eager as town and Shadow as gambling scum.

Penguin - he reacted weirdly to my having him in a pile of "not town" based on a meta read. He then accused me of lying about my meta read on him which I took as a scum action.

Implosion - I don't know this one from memory (this was a month ago after all). I'll give you the iso quotes instead.

Spoiler:
In post 229, nn30 wrote:
In post 162, Zoronos wrote:
In post 132, Gamma Emerald wrote:VOTE: Implosion
Serious vote. He doesn't talk about LUV at all but then votes him. Trying to flashwagon are we?


I'm trying to figure out if I agree with you on this one or not.

Implosion's logic and stances seem, to me, to be very confused.
It seems like he's holding contradictory opinions and trying to justify them after the fact because he was playing off gut and didn't think through whether they made sense together (which leans towny).

My gut doesn't like his post, but I think that's because a lot of it is talking about himself. I want to call him scummy for that, but he's responding to a direct question about his behavior, so talking about himself makes sense. He's answering a direct question after all.

So basically my head and my gut disagree on that slot.


I'm inclined to agree.

In 61 Implosion makes some really thin analysis based on well... not much.

Also, in 61 he gives a reason for snake being scummy. In 62 snake calls him out on it (why don't you vote me then?) and in 64 he goes on to ask Zoronos why he didn't follow up his scumread with a vote. He ends 64 by voting Zoronos.

Here's what the problem I have with that exchange - he doesn't vote anyone in 61 himself (which contradicts his line of questioning to Zoronos in 64). After snake calls him out in 62, he claims to have a "number of reasons" to not vote for snake (wut?) and then goes on to vote Zoronos.

The play feels reactionary - he felt afraid of snake being so direct with him so instead of going toe to toe with Snake, he deflects and votes for Zoro.


VOTE: implosion


Spoiler:
In post 231, nn30 wrote:Also, implosion went dark after leaving his vote on luv. It's been ~18 hours since he last posted (compared to some pretty heavy activity on his part early on).

He could just be lurking for legit reasons.

Or he could have started lurking in response to getting some heat and just let the thread move past thinking about him.

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Post Post #2306  (isolation #238)  » Tue Nov 01, 2016 4:14 pm

In post 762, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:1)I think Implosion and nn30 are town, Penguin is scum.

I think you and Diefire are town, and boring I have as null.

If Gamma flipped scum I would probably reconsider my reads on everyone.
2) If Gamma flipped town I would look at boring, Diefire and Implosion.

If Penguin flipped scum, I would look at Implosion and Shadow.
If Penguin flipped town, I would probably reconsider my reads on everyone.


@Dier - thanks for pointing that out. I missed it the first time around.

I posted the response here and bolded a couple lines, and then gave myself a WIFOM headache.

On the one hand I don't want to trust the words of conf scum. On the other hand (looking at line 1) above), Implosions is cop cleared and I know my role assignment. Which makes me think Penguin is scum? Since the other people on that line turned out to be accurate? Or should I take it as penguin is town and LUV was just bsing.

Line 2) easier for me to interpret. I can read that as "if i'm still alive, and Gamma is town, let's look here for a mislynch." I don't think this is bussing territory - I think this is LUV, from the grave, telling us who town is. This is good because 2/3 people he names as fishy here (Boring / Implosion) I have really high on my town list and it includes Dier which I needed a way to sort.

I could also be reading into this too much.

*Shrug*

Anyone with experience reading the musings of dead scum want to chime in here? I don't have any game experience to fall back on - I'm deferring to the help of my town. I trust Prism, Boring, Implosion with answering this as I think they're least likely to be scum (and to mislead me with their answer).

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Post Post #2307  (isolation #239)  » Tue Nov 01, 2016 4:17 pm

In post 2301, Dierfire wrote:@nn30

Regarding your read on Grendel: what do you mean by "bread crumbs" there? Most of the interactions that you have flagged as such seem to be those in which Grendel expresses mild to moderate suspicion of Lil Uzi Vert but does not vote for him. To me, it does not seem unlikely that a Mafia player would decline to defend a partner who was under suspicion but also not vote for that partner; however, you seem to be reading these interactions as evidence that Grendel is Town. Is that correct?

My second question (if you are still working then this is for when you finish) is whether you are moving your vote.

For the record, I am reading Zoronos strongly as Town and willing to lock into that barring role-related shenanigans.


UNVOTE: Grendel

Thanks for reminding me to unvote.

Yes - I am flagging these interactions and I considered two possibilities of their existence.

1) Scum testing the water of a LUV lynch and leaving bread crumbs which he can point back to in the mean time.

2) Town airing out his thoughts.

I am leaning strongly towards two since breadcrumbing seems waaaaaay too hard to me to do correctly.

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Post Post #2308  (isolation #240)  » Tue Nov 01, 2016 4:31 pm

Here's where my read list is.

Conf town:
implosion (cop cleared)

I have confidence in these town reads:
Prism (he intentionally draws attention to himself for people to state reads on him as scum wouldn't do).
Boring (wanted LUV's booty for two days)
Shadow_Step (day one CC wouldn't have come from scum as it's too risky)
Zoronos (LUV flail voted him - there's a world where Zoro is still scum, but I don't want to live in it)

Weak town read:
Grendel - bread crumb argument. I want people to chime in here who have experience in the site and either confirm or deny that scum have left breadcrumbs in their games.

Null:
Dierfire

Scum:
PP (process of elimination and lack of a reason to town read him for me)

I popped up an ISO of dierfire since I STILL can't sort him and the first thing he did is vote Penguin and put him at 4 votes, which makes them unlikely scum partners to my eyes.
Which, if I'm accurate in my town reads, adds fire to the Grendel is scum argument. Again.

I'm done posting walls for the day - I want other people's opinions on stuff.

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Post Post #2309  (isolation #241)  » Tue Nov 01, 2016 4:35 pm

One more thing to add - I could also be wrong about Penguin and Dier/Grendel are partners.

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Post Post #2310  (isolation #242)  » Tue Nov 01, 2016 4:43 pm

In post 2070, Dierfire wrote:My vote is for boring. I haven't seen many good reasons to read her as Mafia, but I've seen none to read her as Town and I think that the VC shows, at a minimum, Mafia players avoiding her wagon.


@Dier - is the fact that Boring was so strongly interested in lynching LUV enough of a reason to town read her and get you to rethink this statement?

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Post Post #2313  (isolation #243)  » Tue Nov 01, 2016 7:36 pm

In post 2311, Zoronos wrote:A quick note while I'm packing - NN I want to respond to your big post in depth, because I disagree with some of your conclusions but the short version is this:

In post 2301, Dierfire wrote:@nn30

Regarding your read on Grendel: what do you mean by "bread crumbs" there? Most of the interactions that you have flagged as such seem to be those in which Grendel expresses mild to moderate suspicion of Lil Uzi Vert but does not vote for him. To me, it does not seem unlikely that a Mafia player would decline to defend a partner who was under suspicion but also not vote for that partner.


I find scum tend to mark their scum buddies as 'neutral' and will constantly express mild to moderate suspicion on them *while not pushing them*. That is classic distancing. "Yeah A is scummy but let's all vote B" is scum play 101. So those things you flag as 'breadcrumbs' to me are potential setups to join the bus in case LUV goes down. Which is basically what happened yesterday. Those were specifically the things that led me to conclude he might be scum with LUV.

They also will largely ignore their partners (since they don't have a motivation to 'sort' them), and as you noted there's about one Grendel post where he actively addresses LUV. And then, as you note, LUV declines to address it. That feels to me like he doesn't care about the answer or feel like he needs to address it. When I'm scum, I try to answer town questions (since town will try to kill me). I know I can safely ignore questions from my scumbros, since they usually will not try to lynch me if I don't answer / answer poorly.
Furthermore, Grendel not following up on his question being ignored indicates that he doesn't actually care about the answer.

Also, in your fifth quote you quoted the same thing twice, but said 'these three quotes'. What did you actually mean to quote there?


Yeah - you're swaying me here pretty considerably. This is well reasoned and I'm willing to defer to it over my initial impression (my scum hunting leaves quite a bit to be desired).

Fifth quote - pretty sure it was a typo.

I did find it odd that Grendel basically ignored LUV until he started leaving the 'bread crumbs.'

Two questions for you Zoro.

1) Can you find anything outside of what I bolded above to point to Grendel scum?
2) How do you feel about the interactions I included which point to you being town? You seem to think my Grendel bread crumb argument is flawed - are these arguments (which favor you as either alignment I might add) flawed as well?

Last thing - I went back to compare our read lists and ask you about where we differed. Turns out, we don't actually differ at all. This is encouraging.

(I made mine independently of yours. There's a chance you subconsciously impacted mine, but let's not go there)

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Post Post #2320  (isolation #244)  » Tue Nov 01, 2016 8:03 pm

@Grendel - the boring wagon where I'm the lone unflipped person (except for Boring of course). Keep in mind that scum have control of NK's. They chose to kill MariaR first day. That could have been me and you'd be saying the same thing to an unflipped MariaR.

It looks hinky, and could add to a case, but it shouldn't be the basis of one. Just like you being jailed and the NK still happening shouldn't clear you of being scum.

p-edit: @Grendel - I am not suggesting you were coaching LUV. I"m suggesting you scum!Grendel saw the writing on the wall (LUV's impending doom) and chose to leave a trail of breadcrumbs suggesting you "thought" about it long enough to seem town when you join the wagon.

@Boring - thanks for the insight. Gun to your head - is Grendel scum?

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Post Post #2323  (isolation #245)  » Tue Nov 01, 2016 8:21 pm

In post 2322, boring wrote:
In post 2320, nn30 wrote:@Boring - thanks for the insight. Gun to your head - is Grendel scum?
He's not the towniest player in the game, but he's not in my bottom two. So probably not as things stand. (you don't have enough gym badges to stop me from turning a yes/no question into a full sentence)


I'll allow it.

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Post Post #2327  (isolation #246)  » Tue Nov 01, 2016 8:34 pm

@Grendel - You just said that you hate bussing. There's no reason this couldn't be you lying.

I don't think scum were trying to set me up as a mis-lynch - unless that scum is you (since you brought it up).

I think it's more likely that it's coincidence that everyone else on that wagon has now flipped town.

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Post Post #2328  (isolation #247)  » Tue Nov 01, 2016 8:52 pm

In post 2322, boring wrote:
In post 2320, nn30 wrote:@Boring - thanks for the insight. Gun to your head - is Grendel scum?
He's not the towniest player in the game, but he's not in my bottom two. So probably not as things stand. (you don't have enough gym badges to stop me from turning a yes/no question into a full sentence)

@Grendel - what's your current feel on me? I know your vote is still on me. Have your opinions changed at all based on the last few pages?

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Post Post #2335  (isolation #248)  » Tue Nov 01, 2016 9:37 pm

In post 2333, boring wrote:I think this line of reasoning will paint you into a corner, since truth-tells are against this site's rules.


Truth tells? Please expand on this.

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Post Post #2354  (isolation #249)  » Wed Nov 02, 2016 11:12 am

In post 2344, Shadow_step wrote:Implosion is town so that is out of the equation.

So one of [Diefire, Grendal, nn30]
and one of [boring, Prism]

I will ISO Prism and LUV together, I haven't looked at it and I don't get the Prism town reads atm.


You're right - the logic of LUV putting his partners on differing tiers makes sense.

At the time I disagreed because, in my mind, Boring was cleared by her insistence of a LUV lynch and I have a powerful town read on Prism. Based on that your one of [boring, prism] argument had to be wrong.

Now that Implosion & Prism have picked apart the Boring v. LUV play, I'm more inclined to think you're on the right path.

@Shadow - a couple questions for you.

1) Will you point to the LUV v. Penguin interactions that you are referring to? I have PP as my top scum read right now and, if I'm wrong, I'd like to know why.

2) Other than myself (since you're obviously already voting for me) who is scummiest among [Grendel, Dierfire, Zoronos]?

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Post Post #2355  (isolation #250)  » Wed Nov 02, 2016 11:14 am

In post 2353, Shadow_step wrote:
In post 2344, Shadow_step wrote:So one of [Diefire, Grendal, nn30]
and one of [boring, Prism]


I want everyone's opinion on this, out of these 5 would have made the kill last night and why?


Not Grendal (jailed last night)

Not Prism. He's too towny.

Diefire or Boring.

Probs Boring - the recent Implosion / Prism posts have pushed my thoughts on her back towards scummy. I don't have a reason to scum (or town) read Diefire and I know my own alignment.

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Post Post #2356  (isolation #251)  » Wed Nov 02, 2016 11:16 am

In post 2349, Shadow_step wrote:m


I didn't consider the role block on Zoro in my previous post.

This makes Grendal a possibility for the kill as well. Not sure about likelihoods between him and Boring though.

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Post Post #2359  (isolation #252)  » Wed Nov 02, 2016 11:35 am

Grendel could also be ascetic.

Apparently we have 2 town ascetic's. Why not a mafia ascetic?

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Post Post #2363  (isolation #253)  » Wed Nov 02, 2016 12:08 pm

I thought a mafia ascetic would be immune to jailing though. Which makes Grendel a possible killer.

Or am I understanding that rule wrong?

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Post Post #2364  (isolation #254)  » Wed Nov 02, 2016 12:08 pm

Also @Shadow please answer my questions from above. I feel like you're about to ignore them >.>

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Post Post #2366  (isolation #255)  » Wed Nov 02, 2016 1:51 pm

In post 2312, boring wrote:@nn30 - I appreciate that your mind changed throughout the process. Some thoughts: a) if Grendel flips red, you've put your head on the chopping block


@Prism / Implosion - Another wrinkle.

If your theory is correct, this could be Boring teeing up my mislynch after Grendel flips red.

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Post Post #2367  (isolation #256)  » Wed Nov 02, 2016 4:05 pm

Yeah I'm okay with this.

VOTE: boring

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Post Post #2369  (isolation #257)  » Wed Nov 02, 2016 4:39 pm

What caused the change of opinion Penguin?

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Post Post #2371  (isolation #258)  » Wed Nov 02, 2016 5:49 pm

Snake hasn't said anything in ages. Whaddya mean by that?

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Post Post #2377  (isolation #259)  » Wed Nov 02, 2016 9:23 pm

@PP - if you're in agreement why aren't you voting?

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Post Post #2380  (isolation #260)  » Wed Nov 02, 2016 10:01 pm

@Grendel - You make some interesting points about Shadow, which I'll get to in a minute.

1) What reason did you originally have for scum reading me?

2) What are your feelings on the Boring case?

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Post Post #2391  (isolation #261)  » Wed Nov 02, 2016 11:47 pm

Shadow you're sheeping my questions and I'm not a fan.

This is the third time I'm asking you to go back and answer them.

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Post Post #2407  (isolation #262)  » Thu Nov 03, 2016 10:08 am

In post 2403, Shadow_step wrote:nn30 is today's lynch.


I'm gonna need you to state your case on this.

Well reasoned, cited, etc.

I've already asked for this once also.

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Post Post #2408  (isolation #263)  » Thu Nov 03, 2016 10:10 am

In post 2405, PenguinPower wrote:Boring flips town, nn30 is scum.


Don't link me this way. Use something else, please.

Being wrong about somebody =/= I'm scum.

If you're gonna scum read me, please ISO me and cook up some theories on my motivations. Those hold weight without bs associatives.

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Post Post #2409  (isolation #264)  » Thu Nov 03, 2016 10:15 am

In post 2406, Shadow_step wrote:The fact that nn30 was off the Eager wagon is more damning. Scum knew he was town and didn't want to be on his wagon. They wanted town to destroy themselves, look at LUV's wagon position. He was so reluctant to join the Eager wagon.


Is it really that damning? I didn't think he was a good lynch. My vote reflects that. Turns out - I was right. Huh.

LUV joining the wagon late says nothing about my supposed scum!Nn30 playstyle. You're grasping at straws.

ISO Podoboq and look at vote counts - LUV was never once on the Boring wagon. This is something you can't ignore.

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Post Post #2412  (isolation #265)  » Thu Nov 03, 2016 10:56 am

In post 2410, PenguinPower wrote:
In post 2408, nn30 wrote:
In post 2405, PenguinPower wrote:Boring flips town, nn30 is scum.


Don't link me this way. Use something else, please.

Being wrong about somebody =/= I'm scum.

If you're gonna scum read me, please ISO me and cook up some theories on my motivations. Those hold weight without bs associatives.


I'm not linking you. If boring is town, I think you are scum because I agree with post (as I previously said).


I see the logic. I'm still wary, but I can respect it.

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Post Post #2413  (isolation #266)  » Thu Nov 03, 2016 11:26 am

@Boring - you're only poking at one aspect of his case against you (you saying you hard bussed LUV) but ignoring the rest of the case.

Please respond to the rest of the case (your interactions with and LUV's actions towards you).

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Post Post #2415  (isolation #267)  » Thu Nov 03, 2016 1:49 pm

In post 2414, Zoronos wrote:What is the rest of the case, beyond 'a bunch of town voted for her D1'?
Yeah, she had me super suspicious D2 (behind Penguin) to the point that I refused to join her train until I counterclaimed LUV, but I think I was wrong to do that.

I guess I'm missing the thrust of the case kinda other than the bussing part but maybe I'm the dumb.


There's also the fact that LUV never touched her wagon.

At the time of the Eager / Shadow CC, there were two competing wagons. Shadow and Boring.

LUV chose to jump on the Shadow wagon - stealing a lot of my reasoning to do so.

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Post Post #2418  (isolation #268)  » Thu Nov 03, 2016 2:07 pm

In post 2416, Shadow_step wrote:
In post 2411, PenguinPower wrote:
In post 2409, nn30 wrote:LUV was never once on the Boring wagon. This is something you can't ignore.


Not only was he not on it, with a quick glance through LUV's ISO he appears to be softly defending boring.


Ever heard of buddying?

LUV not voting boring, how does that make her scum? Its a moot point .
If boring was scum LUV would have jumped on the eager wagon much much earlier to avoid boring being lynched.


Yeah, buddying is possible.

However, I think it's ridiculous that you're seeing exactly 1 way that it went down, and it's your way.

This is the same way you got Eager killed - tunneling him into the ground.

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Post Post #2419  (isolation #269)  » Thu Nov 03, 2016 2:09 pm

In post 2294, Shadow_step wrote:I've been giving boring a free pass so far because people seemed to be a soft target and people voting her because of her previous games as scum.
When I attacked LUV on day 1, boring had a "problem" with it.
I think one of [boring, prism] has to be scum because of LUV's readlist.


You've been defending boring as of late.

Based on that, you must think Prism is the scum.

Please state your case.

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Post Post #2427  (isolation #270)  » Thu Nov 03, 2016 4:28 pm

In post 2420, Shadow_step wrote:I'm conflicted about my boring read and I'm more confident about you(nn) flipping scum so.


You've yet to tell us why you're so confident.

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Post Post #2428  (isolation #271)  » Thu Nov 03, 2016 4:38 pm

In post 2424, Zoronos wrote:So, something was bugging me earlier, and I want to go back to it quick.

In post 2366, nn30 wrote:If your theory is correct, this could be Boring teeing up my mislynch after Grendel flips red.


NN - If you believe this, it predicates on Grendel actually being red.
If you believe Grendel is red, and boring is using a red flip to try and mislynch you, then *Grendel is still red and should get lynched for being red*.

Here, have a 'Zor thinks you're not busing Grendel probably' certificate. You can use it to convince someone that I don't think you're busing and we shouldn't lynch you for it.

(I want to be clear; I'm not saying I think NN's scum. I don't. It's just a common mistake; going second intention when we can go direct)


Hey Zoro - thanks for the card and good point.

For the time being I think it's prudent to have a Grendel v. Boring discussion.

For the purposes of this, I'm removing Boring from L-1.

UNVOTE: boring

@Implosion / Prism - what do you think of the Grendel as scum? He's been pretty hard for me to decide on (obviously). I have an opinion that hinges on his answers to a couple questions of mine from a page or two back (2380) so for the moment I'll keep them to myself.

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Post Post #2431  (isolation #272)  » Thu Nov 03, 2016 4:56 pm

In post 2429, boring wrote:
In post 2413, nn30 wrote:@Boring - you're only poking at one aspect of his case against you (you saying you hard bussed LUV) but ignoring the rest of the case.

Please respond to the rest of the case (your interactions with and LUV's actions towards you).

I didn't see anything regarding my interactions with LUV that I didn't address. Please point them out, if you feel they were skipped.

As far as LUV's lack of vote on me (is that the "LUV's actions towards you" you are talking about?), fucked if I know. Scum have daytalk. Penguin suggested that LUV is incapable of buddying, but really, it doesn't matter. He's capable of following instructions, right? Do you think he thought up the doc gambit all by his lonesome? Doubtful. Scum team had some reason for coaching LUV's actions (and I do believe there was some coaching beyond the gambit, at the very least, instructions to lie low until the early wave against him passed).


I mean, I've never been part of a game with day chat. My assumption is that it's used for things like "you push this guy, I'll push another guy, make sure to disagree so we don't look like we're working together." I'm also making the assumption that micro-management isn't happening via day chat (like someone telling LUV to buddy you), but I could be wrong.

If you were on the sidelines right now (rather than the leading wagon) what would you think of LUV going through great efforts to avoid your wagon day one? By great efforts I mean stealing my (probably bad) reasons to scum read shadow.

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Post Post #2432  (isolation #273)  » Thu Nov 03, 2016 5:02 pm

In post 2424, Zoronos wrote:(I want to be clear; I'm not saying I think NN's scum. I don't. It's just a common mistake; going second intention when we can go direct)


I literally just won a scum game off of this mistake. I can talk about it now that the game is over. Just wanted to add that in there.

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Post Post #2435  (isolation #274)  » Thu Nov 03, 2016 9:06 pm

In post 2433, Grendel wrote:2) I think that boring is town, but a lot of it is based off of gut, and notes I took yesterday. I don't think I can lynch her.


What do you think of the case on her though? Obviously you believe it to be incorrect - why though?

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Post Post #2441  (isolation #275)  » Fri Nov 04, 2016 9:05 am

In post 2436, Shadow_step wrote:It's funny, nn calls Penguin scum but is absolutely okay with being on the same wagon as him.


You're doing a wonderful job of dodging questions.

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Post Post #2442  (isolation #276)  » Fri Nov 04, 2016 9:10 am

In post 2440, Zoronos wrote:
In post 2354, nn30 wrote:1) Will you point to the LUV v. Penguin interactions that you are referring to? I have PP as my top scum read right now and, if I'm wrong, I'd like to know why.


nn, what caused you to change this read?


It hasn't.

Nobody pointed out why I'm wrong.

I'm bouncing between Penguin/Grendel/Boring primarily as scum reads and another much weaker one on Shadow (which exists primarily because of how brazen he's behaved this game - not necessarily scum but definitelt unhelpful town at a minimum.)

The read hasn't changed. The discussion has merely moved onto other people.

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Post Post #2444  (isolation #277)  » Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:14 am

In post 2443, Shadow_step wrote:You've done a wonderful job at pretending there isn't a case on you.


Sigh...

In post 2114, nn30 wrote:
In post 397, Shadow_step wrote:Like nn30 is ob town after that. Unless he is a very good scum player. I'll have to check his games to make sure.


Soooooo... How does someone go from ob town to not?

In post 2216, nn30 wrote:@penguin - please provide a case against me.

In post 2230, nn30 wrote:@Penguin - why was your vote on me to start the day. It predated your catching my misuse of a word.

In post 2235, nn30 wrote:Coincidence.

I've been raising hell all game.

Please, go through and find scummy reasons for me to be tunneling Gamma, Boring, Shadow, you, and briefly Implosion.

In post 2328, nn30 wrote:
In post 2322, boring wrote:
In post 2320, nn30 wrote:@Boring - thanks for the insight. Gun to your head - is Grendel scum?
He's not the towniest player in the game, but he's not in my bottom two. So probably not as things stand. (you don't have enough gym badges to stop me from turning a yes/no question into a full sentence)

@Grendel - what's your current feel on me? I know your vote is still on me. Have your opinions changed at all based on the last few pages?

In post 2369, nn30 wrote:What caused the change of opinion Penguin?

In post 2407, nn30 wrote:
In post 2403, Shadow_step wrote:nn30 is today's lynch.


I'm gonna need you to state your case on this.

Well reasoned, cited, etc.

I've already asked for this once also.

In post 2427, nn30 wrote:
In post 2420, Shadow_step wrote:I'm conflicted about my boring read and I'm more confident about you(nn) flipping scum so.


You've yet to tell us why you're so confident.


You're moving pretty deep into "I'm willfully ignoring reality" territory now.

I'll ask again.

State your case on me.

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Post Post #2445  (isolation #278)  » Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:21 am

In post 2436, Shadow_step wrote:It's funny, nn calls Penguin scum but is absolutely okay with being on the same wagon as him.


My vote on Boring predates Penguin saying anything on the topic. My vote was there due to the case Prism and Implosion presented.

Are your conf. bias goggles really so obscuring that you're intentionally misreading the game in order to paint me as scum?

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Post Post #2449  (isolation #279)  » Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:19 pm

I mess the t9 days. I could type faster with 9 buttons that I knew exactly how to manipulate than I ever could with autocorrect that doesn't know what it's doing.

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Post Post #2450  (isolation #280)  » Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:19 pm

Point and case.

Miss not mess.

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Post Post #2455  (isolation #281)  » Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:07 pm

In post 2454, PenguinPower wrote:Um...I think he's second scum and he town reads you. That furthers my read on you. How is that difficult to understand?


Nitpicking here.

Scum buddy, and scum bus.

Grendel having Boring as a town read is NAI until you figure out that 1) Grendel is actually scum and 2) how he behaves.

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Post Post #2482  (isolation #282)  » Sat Nov 05, 2016 9:21 am

Hey Shadow, why don't you state your flip dippin case on me??!!

While you're at it, why don't you refute what Implosion and Prism have had to say, too?

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Post Post #2489  (isolation #283)  » Sat Nov 05, 2016 10:01 am

In post 2487, Shadow_step wrote:
In post 2482, nn30 wrote:Hey Shadow, why don't you state your flip dippin case on me??!!

While you're at it, why don't you refute what Implosion and Prism have had to say, too?


cause of the way you pushed my lynch after my claim. It was beneficial to you as scum to get me lynched, after my flip you would have lynched eager because I cced him. 2 free mislynches.
DF's point about how you were the only unflipped town on the boring wagon.
POE
In post 2344, Shadow_step wrote:So one of [Diefire, Grendal, nn30]


I like you for scum out of these.


At the time, you called me a townie who couldn't see last what was in front of him. You went as far as calling me conf town. When did you 180 on this stance and why?

Why didn't I push for your lynch day two then? Why would I push so hard on you D1 when eager was very likely going to get lynched anyways? What's the incentive to anything other than watch?

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Post Post #2493  (isolation #284)  » Sat Nov 05, 2016 10:27 am

In post 2491, Shadow_step wrote:
In post 2489, nn30 wrote:Why didn't I push for your lynch day two then? Why would I push so hard on you D1 when eager was very likely going to get lynched anyways? What's the incentive to anything other than watch?


I already answered the second question.
first and third questions are rhetorical I can't read your mind.


If your scum read is based off of my reaction to your CC on D1, the fact that I didn't push you at all on D2 should be more than enough to remove your scum read. I didn't follow through with the 'scum play' you've identified.

The strength of your case on me =/= the strength of your confidence in your read. It's disconcerting actually.

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Post Post #2500  (isolation #285)  » Sat Nov 05, 2016 2:13 pm

Order for mass claim?

Sure. First at the top.

Boring/Grendel (can't decide who is the most scummy here)
PP
Diefire
Myself (since I'm still a point of contention for Shadow)
Zoronos
Implosion / Prism

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Post Post #2502  (isolation #286)  » Sat Nov 05, 2016 2:53 pm

You're right. Mb.

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Post Post #2505  (isolation #287)  » Sat Nov 05, 2016 5:00 pm

In post 2504, Shadow_step wrote:
In post 2500, nn30 wrote:Order for mass claim?

Sure. First at the top.

Boring/Grendel (can't decide who is the most scummy here)
PP
Diefire
Myself (since I'm still a point of contention for Shadow)
Zoronos
Prism
Implosion


What the heck??
How can you keep a cop cleared townie and someone else in the same bracket?


Is there a reason you're nitpicking this much?

There. I fixed it. Feel better now?

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Post Post #2507  (isolation #288)  » Sat Nov 05, 2016 5:14 pm

Your conf bias goggles really need to come off.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor

Yes I'm calling myself stupid for having them on the same level.

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Post Post #2509  (isolation #289)  » Sat Nov 05, 2016 5:17 pm

In post 2508, Zoronos wrote:I don't know if we're mass claiming today, I'll ponder it.
But if we're doing it it is absolutely not on a list shadowstep makes final choice on.


Implosion should have final choice, if anything.

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Post Post #2510  (isolation #290)  » Sat Nov 05, 2016 5:18 pm

Someone educate me here - what is the utility of mass claiming? Is it a power play for town, or is it a desperation move? Or is it somewhere in the middle?

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Post Post #2519  (isolation #291)  » Sat Nov 05, 2016 7:48 pm

Do we have any way of knowing how many scum are left?

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Post Post #2523  (isolation #292)  » Sat Nov 05, 2016 10:25 pm

In post 2081, Shadow_step wrote:Intent to hammer LUV


In post 2092, Shadow_step wrote:Brilliant, all the lynch baits got all the good PRs :/

VOTE: Nn

In post 2102, Shadow_step wrote:He will hammer cause he is scum.
Probably going bonkers in his at.


These three posts happened in relatively quick succession. The second post feels strange to me in particular (it's not because he voted me - it's because he's so quick to believe the claim of the person he just declared intent to hammer on).

Zoro counter-claimed between the 2nd and 3rd quote - which would explain that flip. But the flop between the 1st and 2nd is still throwing me off.

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Post Post #2533  (isolation #293)  » Sat Nov 05, 2016 11:58 pm

[quote="In post 2524, Grendel"][/quote]

My scum reading Shadow has less to do with you and more to do with his actions today. You pushing him adds a confusing wrinkle though.

I've got this big convoluted triangle bouncing around in my brain.

Shadow has been acting ridiculous all day - plenty of people have pointed this out. Not going to beat a dead horse. He feels scummy for this reason.

Beginning of the day you hopped onto my wagon (as the 3rd voter) with some flimsy reasoning and then wrote half a novel about why you hopped off. Felt weird to me - like you hopped on opportunistically and then hopped off when the lynch wasn't going to happen. You then move onto push Shadow.

Which makes me think you two can't be scum together.

Then there's the case on boring - which you have written at length that you simply don't agree with the reasons she's being scum read. This links the two of you in my eyes - it seems that, if you're scum, you're distracting from Boring by pushing Shadow.

Then Shadow is pushing me - which could also be a distraction from Boring.

Then there's Diefire who nobody has a handle on yet.

Truth is, I'd rate a 75% chance of the remaining scum being in these four. I just don't know how the puzzle fits together.

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Post Post #2534  (isolation #294)  » Sun Nov 06, 2016 12:01 am

In post 2528, Shadow_step wrote:
In post 2517, Zoronos wrote:This discussion is distracting from actually finding scum. It should stop, and likely do so now.
My scummiess meter on Shadow_step has increased markedly. The things that Implosion pointed out in are not only super aggravating, but also many of them are scum sided (specifically calling yourself conf town while not actually confirmed anything).
The summary of them all is "You are playing both anti-cooperatively, and are actively breaking down cooperation amongst other players." That's an actively pro-scum strategy.

I think at the very least you need to eat some humble pie. In the mean time, I think the rest of us should have a larger discussion on whether or not the wide town read based on D1 play is misguided / overridden by his behavior since then.

However, my best scum read remains Grendel, so I think people should either vote that way, make a case for Grendel being town, or make a more convincing argument for Beatrix being scum (because the bus vote stuff on LUV I don't find convincing, given that there were a number of opportunities for her to vote opportunistically on town targets and instead maintained her vote on a scum. So if she was busing, she was super dedicated to the bus and is probably bad for busing on D2 when she could have lynched town and then bus'ed on D3).


It's not a strategy, its how I play. I'm apathetic, and I still find scum and Lynch them.

The MC is actually going to help us POE, further to reduce the Lynch pool. As is scum will probably kill you and implosion in whatever order so there is no downside to not mass claiming.


Do you even know what the word apathetic means?

If this is how you play I suggest you make your 1 post per day to avoid being prodded and let the rest of the town figure out what's going on. You aren't adding to any discussion in any helpful way whatsoever.

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Post Post #2535  (isolation #295)  » Sun Nov 06, 2016 12:02 am

In post 2526, Shadow_step wrote:
In post 2511, Shadow_step wrote:You call me scum and then call me conf biadsed, implying I'm town. What is it, I can't be both.
If its conf bias you certainly aren't making it easy for yourself by posting things like that.


Calls me out for dodging questions. Dodges questions himself :evil:


You just quoted yourself. Lol.

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Post Post #2536  (isolation #296)  » Sun Nov 06, 2016 12:04 am

In post 2527, Grendel wrote:
In post 2524, Grendel wrote:NN30... Why am I duking it out with boring for your most scummiest read, meanwhile you seem the most skeptical of Shadow's slot when I started pushing shadow more then anybody else has since D1?

Before my push you thought he was town yea?


I mean, I haven't gone back to all your pushes to hard confirm this, but I recall you chiming in whenever the tide of suspicion changed throughout the game, and that's bugging me out. Like, that has some viable scum motivation behind it...

Also nn30, what are you current reasons for scum reading me?


Maybe that'd be accurate today - but not for D1 or D2.

The people I pushed the hardest so far have been GE and Shadow. I did that without town consensus behind me.

The reason it feels like I'm going with town consensus is because I have a conf town in implosion, a very hard town read in Prism, and a very likely town in Zoronos all saying reasonable things. My scum hunting this game has been abysmal - so I'm deferring to the people who 1) I trust and 2) seem to be onto something.

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Post Post #2537  (isolation #297)  » Sun Nov 06, 2016 12:06 am

In post 2529, Shadow_step wrote:
In post 2507, nn30 wrote:Your conf bias goggles really need to come off.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor

Yes I'm calling myself stupid for having them on the same level.


So @Implosion and anyone else who bothers reading the thread. Don't you think this is a scum slip?
Isn't this nn scum calling me conf biased because he knows I'm town?
If its not, why?


No, it's me saying you have conf bias because you pick and choose 1 of the last 10 things I've posted, post some BS reason to scum read it, and then drop the mic and ignore the rest of the conversation.

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Post Post #2542  (isolation #298)  » Sun Nov 06, 2016 12:17 am

In post 2539, Zoronos wrote:Nn30 there is no way shadow is on the table today. His D1 play fits way too closely to the long surprise trap town 'gotcha!' Counterclaim. The town motivation on that line of play is pretty clear.

Pursue individuals, using what we know. Not what we speculate the entire team might be. Focus.


The only way I'm going to be able to do this is if I ignore literally every post Shadow makes for the rest of the time he's alive.

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Post Post #2569  (isolation #299)  » Sun Nov 06, 2016 12:35 pm

In post 2567, boring wrote:Wow, you guys have had a busy day (or so) Here is some quick input:

1) It appears that people are using their claim list as a scum-to-town reads list, in which case, here's mine: Penguin, Shadow (already claimed), Dierfire, nn30/Grendel, Prism, Implosion/Zoronos (already claimed).

2) Penguin is still atop my list, but Grendel's argument on Shadow made a lot of sense to me. I don't feel like he's made any positive contributions to the game overall, which is a telling thing in the long run. I'd still prefer a Penguin lynch today, but I think I'd be willing to vote Shadow, if it comes down to that.

3) I really don't understand the pushes on Grendel or nn30 (nor my own for that matter, but I've been scum-read from go). Neither of them are the tippy top of my town list, but I can't see myself voting either of them today (barring something substantially scummy occurring to implicate them, of course).


So, you don't like the current pushes and you present two alternatives.

Can you give a little more on the Penguin / Shadow cases? Or point to where you have already done so?

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Post Post #2574  (isolation #300)  » Sun Nov 06, 2016 3:40 pm

@Zoronos - You told me to focus earlier when I was attempting to suss out the entire scum team.

I'vie had a night to recover from Shadow being under my skin and I'd like to talk to you a little bit more about that.

Pre-flip associations are a huge no-no in Mafia Scum. In both this game and the other game I've completed on this site, the general consensus on them is that they're a waste of time and an easy way to fake content as scum.

The corollary to this, however, is that post-flip associations DO mean something. We have Maria, Eager, Gamma, and LUV right now as post-flips.

The reason I have a headache right now trying to figure out where to plant my vote is that by choosing a single person among those I find scummy (Penguin / Boring / Grendel / Shadow / Diefire*) means their actions towards the rest of the town, their interactions with LUV, and their interactions with one another in response to pressure should be taken into account. Whoever we decide to lynch today needs to make sense within these interactions. To ignore them would be to ignore important clues.

*Diefire is here because I don't have a reason to town read him.

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Post Post #2577  (isolation #301)  » Sun Nov 06, 2016 5:43 pm

LUV v. Shadow_Step -

Spoiler:
This came from page 10 - no longer RVS in my eyes - where LUV had 3 votes (one of them being shadow).
In post 273, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:You keep implying this game will be easy. I seriously hope you have a backup plan for when I flip town.

This came from page 21. In a world where LUV and Shadow are both scum, this means that LUV intentionally engaged with Shadow's hinting at a CC. Unlikely, in my eyes.
In post 522, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:Shadow - Like Penguin, I don't get the sense that he's really contributing, he's very quick to just jump on things and doesn't really have sound reasoning for jumping on said things. At first, I thought he was just a VI, but he keeps saying that this game is easy or it's almost solved, which baffles me and makes me uneasy.

This doesn't feel like a partner v. partner interaction (though I could be wrong).
In post 525, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:
In post 524, Shadow_step wrote:Calling me a VI? Okay that is just bullshit.
Esp since you have no idea with am I talking about.

Never called you a VI, I thought you was one though. Why so angry?

And you're right, I don't know what you're talking about, but no one else does either. Mind sharing what knowledge you may or may not have to determine how you're finding this game easier then the rest of us?


Conclusion - his interactions with LUV in combination with Shadow's D1 CC, mean he is unlikely to be scum. As much as it pains me to say it, I'm going to need a better reason than he's unhelpful (insufferable) town to push for a lynch on him.


LUV v. Boring

Spoiler:
First instance I found of Boring scum reading LUV - also from page ten. Not RVS any longer.
In post 238, boring wrote:Further, I find both you and LUV worth some scrutiny, but that I'm dissatisfied with both your and Grendel's decisions to base scum reads off Grendel's "RQS".

LUV soft defends Boring.
In post 308, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:
In post 304, eagerSnake wrote:I mean I told you guys this a while ago

Do you actual have a case on boring or?

Boring's read on LUV.
In post 476, boring wrote:Lil Uzi Vert - I know people seem mostly over him now, but he's remains one of the scummier posters today. Might be personality.

LUV's 'read' on boring. This reads as NAI IMO.
In post 522, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:boring (null) - While she does ask questions, she doesn't seem like she is actively trying to solve the game and her votes all seem like a stretch or too convenient. I don't know how to put my feelings about her into the words but I can't shake this vibe from her. I think it's mainly her vote on Zoro, which read more to me as nitpicking about inconsistencies rather than looking for scum.

At this time, Eager had 4 votes and Boring was his counter wagon at 3. LUV jumps on the Shadow wagon (which had only 1 vote at the time). People are reading this as LUV avoiding the Boring counterwagon because she's scum but also avoiding the Eager wagon (for some reason). I'm fine with reading it that way but LUV could also just be behaving irrationally.
In post 885, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:VOTE: Shadow
If both of you are town we are seriously fucked.

LUV soft defends Boring again.
In post 1048, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:I don't get the case for boring, she's new to site so it's possible she has never seen scum act like Shadow had acted early on in the game, she stated reasons for why she found Eager's claiming terrible and she called him out for coasting. I can see why she voted for Eager.

And again. At this point in my ISO dive, my thought is this: do scum really defend one another this much? I'm leaning towards unlikely.
In post 1303, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:Shadow still reads the same to me but I'm willing to move my vote with enough convincing. I still don't buy the case on boring, well I don't buy it enough to believe she's the correct lynch for today.

Another instance of Boring not liking LUV on D1. First off, bussing is bad scum play unless it's necessary. At this point in time, there was no foregone conclusion that LUV would be dead on D2 - ergo bussing him isn't necessary. She even says 'regardless of Eager's flip, LUV could be scum.' She follows this up on D2 by pushing him. This feels towny to me.
In post 1452, boring wrote:I would like to lynch eager today, but if it's absolutely not going to happen, I'd be willing to settle for LUV. He's the most probable scum when I look outside the CC-related wagons. By that, I mean it seems like regardless of eager's flip, LUV could be scum. I admit that part of my reasoning is that he keeps trying to push S_s, which is making zero sense to me. That, and his eagerness to accept bizarre theories just to keep the S_s suspicions going.

Again with the reasoning to scum read LUV on D1. I'll forgive her for not pushing it harder - the Shadow v. Eager mess on D1 derailed everyone else too. If she is scum who just outright gave town her plan, bravo. That's some hilarious stuff there. I'm not inclined to read it this way because I don't think planning to bus from the get go is a good scum plan.
In post 1487, boring wrote:I think LUV has been lurky, beetlegeuse-ish, and unoriginal throughout the game. It's really easy to float to day 1 or day 2 in order to give your teammates something to bus, and that matches his behavior. When he was getting heat, he basically disappeared until people moved onto someone else.
As far as who is more likely to come up with (and follow) crazy theories, I think it's pretty individual. Some people have wild imaginations and are prone to conspiracy. Some people aren't. I can see such a person coming up with something crazy as town or scum (perhaps more likely as town, but how would they know it's crazy as scum if they think it's perfectly sane when they're town). I think scum (or insanely conf.biased town) is more likely to pretend to buy into someone else's crazy theory hoping it'll stick.

First post of D2 - scum reads LUV.
In post 1555, boring wrote:I'm still suspicious of LUV. My read on him was independent of the wagons yesterday. The rest, I'm trying to piece together.

Last one (that isn't related to LUV) - not liking Eager's town block. IMO if you're scum, you either ignore Eager trying to make a town block on D1 or you subtlely encourage him to do so. You don't say 'don't do this you moron.'
In post 278, boring wrote:He probably is. I'm the only person who's vocalized annoyance with the concept of a fake town block. I can do it again too. Only VI's and scum would be content with the idea of unconfirmed town being placed on a town block pedestal.

Conclusion - Boring's interactions with LUV put her in my town pile once more. @Implosion / Prism - at some point we're going to have to reconcile this difference of opinion. Now or later - up to you guys.


Luv V. Grendel
Spoiler:
LUV answered Grendel's RQS questions. NAI.
In post 106, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:Sure, I'll play along.

1.) Third party.

2.) No.

3.) No.

4.) No comment.

5.) Very. I feel like I can learn a lot from everyone here.

Grendel's analysis of LUV's RQS. Bold for emphasis. The 'I guess' strikes me as him making a show of not getting anything out of it. Granted - LUV basically gave nothing in his RQS answers, but w/e.
In post 215, Grendel wrote:Lil Uzi Vert: Really guarded and unhelpful. He has played like this as town before though, so it’s hard to anylse this dude. I will say that I expected him to be more verbose with his stance evasion. This is also the first post of his provide content since a naked RVS vote, so that docks some town points. Null I guess.


I have a suspicion LUV and Grendel don't actually talk much beyond this point. After this point in time, they don't talk to each other so much as about each other for the rest of the day. Here are some examples of this.
In post 467, Grendel wrote:Scum with Gamma. Do you really think its LUV?

If Gamma is scum with LUV that hard defense was really ham-fisted.

In post 521, Grendel wrote:
In post 507, Gamma Emerald wrote:
In post 505, PenguinPower wrote:And LUV seems to be doing...what?

Trying to actively contribute.


Not really. He has been pretty lack luster poster. Even going off the last game.

In post 522, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:I actually have some reads but before we get to that I'd like to just say that there's been a lot of talk about my play style mainly from Gamma and Grendal and I'd just like to say that I wasn't in the best place mentally during that game. I honestly had checked out way before I got ran up. Truth is, I don't know what's wrong with the way I play because I've never gotten mislynched before until I've played on here and even then, and so far, I haven't had my play read as lynch bait except the games I've been with you two.

LUV's 'read' on Grendel. NAI.
In post 522, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:Grendal - Outside of the RQS, I've liked a lot of the questions he's asks and I think he's trying his hardest to understand the thoughts and motives behind what everyone is saying and doing. His fixation with Gamma is a little weird, but I understand that they're friends and feeling confident that you aren't being doped by a friend can definitely help go a long way into building that town block Snake was talking about.

I'm including this because it doesn't include Grendel at all. My hypothesis is that LUV was trying to point us in all the wrong directions and that the correct directions are explicitly where he isn't pointing.
In post 762, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:I think Implosion and nn30 are town, Penguin is scum.
I think you and Diefire are town, and boring I have as null.

If Gamma flipped scum I would probably reconsider my reads on everyone.
If Gamma flipped town I would look at boring, Diefire and Implosion.

If Penguin flipped scum, I would look at Implosion and Shadow.
If Penguin flipped town, I would probably reconsider my reads on everyone.

Fast forward a million years and we get this. Reads like Grendel hopping on a bus as he watches the LUV lynch gain steam, but leaves room for another wagon if the town changes its mind. Also doesn't jive with the next thing he has to say about LUV. Does he look bad or is he hard to place?
In post 1648, Grendel wrote:Luv looks worse in retrospect then I first thought.

I kind of want to vote Implosion too though.

In post 1710, Grendel wrote:
Luv is all over the place and I'm having trouble pacing him. I definitely didn't like his hammer, or the unnatural transitions in his reads. I can't help feeling like it is all to easy though.


Then, after not speaking of LUV for a long time, just decides to L-1 vote him without stating much of a reason. Seems like a last minute bus to me.
In post 2047, Grendel wrote:I'm too tired to figure out whether or not there is scum between Zoronos and Penguin.

I'll be happy with a LUV flip at this point.

VOTE: LUV

This is 1-L



Conclusion - Grendel's lack of direct interactions with LUV indicate he wasn't trying to sort him. Before you say it Shadow - I know Zoro already pointed this out. I like doing my own research though thank you very much.


VOTE: Grendel

Please look at spoiler tags to see why.


Spoiler:
On another post, another day (when I haven't spent 2 hours on ISO dives) I'll also put some detail into the other things I saw. Here's some bonus information which, if Grendel ends up being scum, will be the basis of where I begin my hunt tomorrow.

Here's where my scum reads (or lack of town reads in Diefire's case) started before doing this (in no particular order) - Penguin / Boring / Grendel / Diefire / Shadow.

I found reason to believe that Penguin isn't a scum team with LUV - their interactions don't feel like partner v. partner. Grendel and Penguin also don't feel like partner v. partner interactions - if Grendel flips scum this will add credence to this theory.

I ruled out Shadow and Boring (for now) as detailed above. This leaves only Diefire.

I'm reading this as 'I'm scum and I want to give the appearance of thinking long and hard about pushing Boring closer to being mislynched.
In post 2426, Dierfire wrote:There's a lot of material that I want to read again. When I'm finished (probably tomorrow), I'll decide whether I want to give hammer intent on boring.

VOTE: Grendel

Relevantly, Diefire made no mention of the fact that town backed down from lynching boring, nor did he post any thoughts on the matter. He just let it slide.


Also, relevantly, he made no mention of the fact that town backed down from lynching boring, nor did he post any thoughts on the matter. He just let it slide.

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Post Post #2578  (isolation #302)  » Sun Nov 06, 2016 5:44 pm

That's L-1.

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Post Post #2581  (isolation #303)  » Sun Nov 06, 2016 6:01 pm

In post 2426, Dierfire wrote:There's a lot of material that I want to read again. When I'm finished (probably tomorrow), I'll decide whether I want to give hammer intent on boring.

That's the first helpful thing you've said all day. Thank you.

UNVOTE:

Consider that where I'll put my vote in the future.

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Post Post #2582  (isolation #304)  » Sun Nov 06, 2016 6:01 pm

What the hell was all that quote gibberish in your previous post?

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Post Post #2584  (isolation #305)  » Sun Nov 06, 2016 6:04 pm

Gah it happened again!

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Post Post #2587  (isolation #306)  » Sun Nov 06, 2016 6:10 pm

@Prism - quote derp. Goddamnit lol. The quote from Dierfire wasn't supposed to be there.

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Post Post #2589  (isolation #307)  » Sun Nov 06, 2016 6:21 pm

Has everyone weighed in on the mass claim thing? Can we get going on that?

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Post Post #2592  (isolation #308)  » Sun Nov 06, 2016 6:29 pm

In post 2498, implosion wrote:Order is variable but looks something like:
boring->dier->grendel->prism->penguin->nn->me
I'm fine with switching dier/grendel around and fine with shuffling nn/penguin/prism because they're still jostling for position among how strongly I townread them. This is probably how it looks based solely on my reads right now at this moment but I'm also fine with, for instance, nn going earlier if his alignment is still a point of contention.



I'm fine with Grendel starting ftr, but here's what our cop cleared Implosion wanted.

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Post Post #2594  (isolation #309)  » Sun Nov 06, 2016 7:20 pm

In post 2593, Zoronos wrote:
In post 2574, nn30 wrote:@Zoronos - You told me to focus earlier when I was attempting to suss out the entire scum team.

I'vie had a night to recover from Shadow being under my skin and I'd like to talk to you a little bit more about that.
U
Pre-flip associations are a huge no-no in Mafia Scum. In both this game and the other game I've completed on this site, the general consensus on them is that they're a waste of time and an easy way to fake content as scum.

The corollary to this, however, is that post-flip associations DO mean something. We have Maria, Eager, Gamma, and LUV right now as post-flips.

The reason I have a headache right now trying to figure out where to plant my vote is that by choosing a single person among those I find scummy (Penguin / Boring / Grendel / Shadow / Diefire*) means their actions towards the rest of the town, their interactions with LUV, and their interactions with one another in response to pressure should be taken into account. Whoever we decide to lynch today needs to make sense within these interactions. To ignore them would be to ignore important clues.

*Diefire is here because I don't have a reason to town read him.

umm... okay?
I'm not sure what question you're asking me here.
I agree, use what you know about the scum that have flipped. Be clear about it when you use that kind of thing and explain your thinking when you do so. But yeah, totally legit to use flipped scum.

So, what about Shadow or whomever did you want to talk to me about?
I'm having a little bit of trouble parsing out what this post is saying beyond "I'm not sure what to do here". Which is totally fine, but let's figure it out.


Summary: we have a ton of flips now. Using them to guess at likely scum teams should be A OK.

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Post Post #2610  (isolation #310)  » Mon Nov 07, 2016 8:26 am

@Grendel - my reads have changed. Your 2599 suggests you have not seen my 2577. Please take a look.

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Post Post #2615  (isolation #311)  » Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:13 am

I just looked up town deputy. If I'm understanding correctly, now that Gamma is dead you are a cop. Tonight will be your first opportunity to investigate someone. Correct?

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Post Post #2617  (isolation #312)  » Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:17 am

I'm next.

Vanilla Townie.

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Post Post #2618  (isolation #313)  » Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:58 am

DF is next.

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Post Post #2621  (isolation #314)  » Mon Nov 07, 2016 12:15 pm

Prism then Implosion.

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Post Post #2626  (isolation #315)  » Mon Nov 07, 2016 3:38 pm

In post 2624, boring wrote:What are the chances that Penguin is lying about being Deputy?


Dunno. It could happen from scum for sure.

I'm of the belief that LUV v. Penguin interactions didn't feel like partner v. partner. So, I'm inclined to believe him.

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Post Post #2628  (isolation #316)  » Mon Nov 07, 2016 5:02 pm

Breadcrumbing that you're the deputy, you mean?

Please point to these bread crumbs.

If you're breadcrumbs referred to something else, please correct me and then point to them.

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Post Post #2637  (isolation #317)  » Mon Nov 07, 2016 6:57 pm

In post 2634, Shadow_step wrote:
In post 2626, nn30 wrote:
In post 2624, boring wrote:What are the chances that Penguin is lying about being Deputy?


Dunno. It could happen from scum for sure.

I'm of the belief that LUV v. Penguin interactions didn't feel like partner v. partner. So, I'm inclined to believe him.


Why would scum claim deputy exactly?


1) Scum would claim anything, really. Apparently, as long as it isn't CC'd people are likely to buy it.

2) Deputy means that they get to pretend to have knowledge tomorrow. Depending on how they play it, they can town clear until it gets into later days. Or they can use their 'knowledge' to bus a partner, become conf town as a result, and ride into lylo on the goodwill. Or they can claim a scum result on a townie which would result in either a 1 for 1 trade (themselves for the towny) or they could wiggle out of it by saying 'welp, I guess I'm a cop that gives reverse results and didn't know it.' Or something to that effect.

Seems like a smart move from scum tbh. Lots of strategic room to maneuver.

I'll reiterate though - I believe penguin at the moment.

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Post Post #2638  (isolation #318)  » Mon Nov 07, 2016 6:59 pm

In post 2636, Shadow_step wrote:
In post 2619, Dierfire wrote:I am also VT.


Out of all the claims, I found this the scummiest.
Like he believes all the people that claimed to be VT before him. Hence the "also".


I posted a while back that I had a bit of a scum read on him as well as why - you might be onto something here.

Does it feel funny to you that I scum read Dierfire as well, given your feelings on me?



Whatever the result of this discussion is, I still think today should be a Grendel lynch.

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Post Post #2640  (isolation #319)  » Mon Nov 07, 2016 7:09 pm

Go back and reread Boring v. LUV. ISO them and see what you find. If you can refute what I found, please try.

Here's what I found:

LUV soft defends Boring way more times than I'd expect scum to defend one another. Don't scum avoid doing just that intentionally?

At the end of D1, Boring says 'regardless of Eager's flip, I still find LUV scummy.' Then she pushed him during D2.

This means that a scum!Boring planned to bus Boring from D1. I find this unlikely.

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Post Post #2642  (isolation #320)  » Mon Nov 07, 2016 7:22 pm

In post 2641, PenguinPower wrote:
In post 2628, nn30 wrote:Breadcrumbing that you're the deputy, you mean?

Please point to these bread crumbs.

If you're breadcrumbs referred to something else, please correct me and then point to them.


First letter of the second word in each sentence:

Spoiler: Breadcrumb
In post 2146, PenguinPower wrote:I'm definitely considering LUV as scummier than Zoronos out of this interaction. I'm especially hesitant about voting for any PR claims at this point, so I'm willing to look off the wagon. I possibly would vote Boring and nn30 based on the VCA, D1, and recent interactions. I'm unwilling to vote Gamma, Implosion, or Shadow considering I believe Gamma's and Shadow's claims. So, that leaves Dierfire and Prism...haven't really looked into them so I'd have to re-read. So, yep, I'm going to go ahead and

UNVOTE:

While I re-read Dierfire and Prism.


I'll take your word that you breadcrumbed before a mass claim was discussed but I'll definitely double check alter.

Let me guess at your intentions - in later days you wanted to be able to point back to the breadcrumb as evidence that we should trust you?

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Post Post #2643  (isolation #321)  » Mon Nov 07, 2016 7:23 pm

@PP - Also, holy hell I'm glad you didn't leave me digging for breadcrumbs for too long. I would never have found that.

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Post Post #2655  (isolation #322)  » Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:54 pm

@Penguin - the breadcrumb is a cool idea, but all it does is indicate planning. It's NAI.

I'm choosing to believe your claim on the basis of your LUV interactions and I encourage the rest of the town to make their decisions on PP for reasons other than the breadcrumbs.

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Post Post #2657  (isolation #323)  » Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:38 pm

@Implosion - the breadcrumb only implies planning. Scum could have thought ahead - I'm agreeing on the town read but don't rule this out.

Why else is PP town for you?

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Post Post #2663  (isolation #324)  » Mon Nov 07, 2016 11:21 pm

In post 2658, PenguinPower wrote:Are you serious right now? I could have easily claimed VT with the rest of you, especially since I wasn't even up on the chopping block to date.

You're really making me reconsider my Grendel read with you continued focus on me instead of probable scum.


I'm pointing out the obvious. Bread crumbs are NAI.

Grendel is still who I want to lynch today.

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Post Post #2666  (isolation #325)  » Mon Nov 07, 2016 11:49 pm

Shadow, how bout another slice of humble pie?

These last two pages have actually been bearable with you. Until now.

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Post Post #2683  (isolation #326)  » Tue Nov 08, 2016 11:19 am

In post 2671, implosion wrote:literally you criticize him for "jumping to a conclusion" and then jump to a conclusion where he didn't. It's a conclusion that I agree with. Coincedentally it's a conclusion that nn also agrees with. but ugh.


Thanks for saying what I wanted to. Had I said that it would have started another NN v Shadow flame war.

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Post Post #2684  (isolation #327)  » Tue Nov 08, 2016 11:24 am

In post 2678, implosion wrote:And in addition to that, if she is scum, her transitioning into a bus on LUV is very natural. He was her backup after eager; if she transitioned into the gamma wagon or something like that, it would look unnatural and suspicious if LUV were ever to flip scum.


I play a lot of Poker - so I see where you're coming from with the 'mixed play' argument. I hadn't considered the possibility until you pointed it out.

However:

Late D1 Boring said that regardless of the Eager flip, she found LUV scummy.

The first thing she did D2 was push LUV.

This series of events is less of a transition and more of a continuation of what she was already doing D1.

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Post Post #2685  (isolation #328)  » Tue Nov 08, 2016 11:40 am

This post is regarding Grendel.

First spoiler - this is Grendel explaining why he unvoted me earlier in the day. For the purposes of this exercise I want you to read it and determine, on the basis of this post alone, what Grendel's read on me was at that time: scum, null, or town? Then move onto the second spoiler.

Spoiler:
In post 2372, Grendel wrote:Nn30, Initially I thought your knee jerk reaction to my vote at the start of the day was pretty scummy. But I forgot that you’re new to the site, and it is more a sign of your newness here then straight up scum opportunistic play. Primarily because as scum I don’t think you’d unvote, then put all this effort into thinking about the game state as a whole. If you were scum I’d imagine that you would be perfectly happy to ride me to my death.

I had some serous paranoia about you over the course of night two, but I’m pretty over it now. It was how you went on that tangent at EoD yesterday about serial killers. As a rule of thumb I find players that are paranoid about third party roles with night kill capabilities to be a scum tell. Mainly since a SK would be a threat to scum during the night, and can be leashed by town if found out making them as dangers as a vigilante to the mafia. I guess it sounds silly in this context, but it’s a legitimate tell on the other site I play at... I hope Gamma isn’t taking notes from the dead thread.

There is also the matters of POE on the boring wagon when I came into today, but I’ve lost my initial confidence that boring is town due to associative to another player I think is scum now.

I also don’t think that effort necessarily equals alignment, but I do think that faking the effort you have throughout the game is reflective of somebody with a lot more experience the you seem to actually have. I briefly entertained the idea that you could have more experience then you let on. I recall you playing lots of different games of deception for fun in you submitted RQS answers. But all the tangents you hit throughout the game sound a lot more like somebody who is newer to the game, and in interested in how things work, then somebody experienced. Even the sk thing in retrospect.


Spoiler:
Here's what he has to say about me six days later.
In post 2651, Grendel wrote:Hey Penguin. I know you think I'm scummy, but if you were to assume I were town. Do you think that Deirfire and nn30 are scummy, and have scum chemistry with LUV?


He's very clearly scum reading me IMO. Does this match the read he had on me from the above spoiler quote, in your opinion?

Spoiler:
There's also this. These quotes are only a day apart. On the one hand, this could be his read evolving naturally over the course of time (my reads certainly have). I'm more inclined to believe it's him, as scum, pretending to have reads and the result is that he's inconsistent.

In post 2372, Grendel wrote:
There is also the matters of POE on the boring wagon when I came into today, but I’ve lost my initial confidence that boring is town due to associative to another player I think is scum now.



In post 2433, Grendel wrote:
In post 2380, nn30 wrote:2) What are your feelings on the Boring case?

2) I think that boring is town, but a lot of it is based off of gut, and notes I took yesterday. I don't think I can lynch her.

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Post Post #2686  (isolation #329)  » Tue Nov 08, 2016 11:55 am

In post 2638, nn30 wrote:
In post 2636, Shadow_step wrote:
In post 2619, Dierfire wrote:I am also VT.


Out of all the claims, I found this the scummiest.
Like he believes all the people that claimed to be VT before him. Hence the "also".


I posted a while back that I had a bit of a scum read on him as well as why - you might be onto something here.

Does it feel funny to you that I scum read Dierfire as well, given your feelings on me?


@Shadow - I don't believe you've responded to this, and I'd like you to.

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Post Post #2687  (isolation #330)  » Tue Nov 08, 2016 12:11 pm

In post 2680, Shadow_step wrote:I don't get why a scum! Grendel would kill Maria n1. LUV was just a goon, killing off someone who TRs you is sub optimal play.


This is another good wrinkle to consider. I'd like to hear more people's thoughts on it, especially Zoronos.

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Post Post #2695  (isolation #331)  » Tue Nov 08, 2016 1:12 pm

@Implosion - good point. Not enough info to draw definitive conclusions from.

@Shadow - My scum read predates your scum read on him (as well as everyone else's - I was the first person to move him from '???' to 'scum read' - but that's beside the point.) Let's look at the four possibilities for mine and Dier's alignments as well as my feelings on the likelihood of each of them.

Scum!Dier + Scum!Nn30 - In what world do I, as scum, intentionally lead the discussion of Dier into 'he's possible scum' territory before everyone else? I find this highly unlikely - especially since neither of us were experiencing any pressure at the time of my initial scum read. Don't go all conspiracy theorist on me here, either. I have no idea how town would react to this play. Use occam's razor.

Scum!Dier + Town!Nn30 - I'm a towny picking up on scum reads, I voice them.
Town!Dier + scum!Nn30 - I'm a scummy pretending to pick up on scum reads, I voice them.

Town!Dier + Town! Nn30 - I'm a towny picking up on scum reads, I voice them. My scum read is incorrect.

Here's the point I'm trying to get across to you with this line of reasoning. It is unlikely that both Dier and I are scum together. Therefore, either we're both town or one of us is scum. At most one of us is scum - which means you're wrong about one of us. I'm also trying to imply that the person you're incorrect about is myself, but that's open to your as well as the town's interpretation.


P-edit - I'm not going that do that Shadow. NK analysis of D1 is largely a waste of time. It hinges on knowing how scum will behave. Let's spend the time we have on things with a higher likelihood of being useful, please?

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Post Post #2697  (isolation #332)  » Tue Nov 08, 2016 3:29 pm

Hmm...

I ISO'd Dierfire to take a look at who he has voted for, and when. I found that, when only considering who he votes for (and ignoring his thoughts about the game), he's very conservative. I found exactly one instance of him putting a vote somewhere which was an unpopular opinion - and it's a pretty damning 'one and only' instance as well.

Aside from RVS, he was:

4th to join a wagon on PP (post 351). At the time of his vote, Penguin was the leading vote with 3 votes compared to the 2 of Zoronos and Gamma Emerald.
4th to join the Eager wagon (post 1297). At the time of this vote, Boring was the leading wagon with 4 votes and Dier's vote tied the wagons.
3rd to join the Gamma Emerald wagon (post 1662). At the time of this vote, LUV and Gamma each had 2 votes. Dier's vote puts Gamma 1 vote above LUV.
3rd to join the Grendel wagon (post 2277). At the time of this vote, I was tied for leading wagon at 2 votes. Dier's vote puts Grendel in the lead with 3.

In fact, the only time he stuck his neck out was when he voted for Boring in post 2070 (I'm defining 'sticking one's neck out' as doing something away from town consensus.) At this time LUV had 5 votes compared to the next highest wagon of Penguin Power with 2 votes. His vote put boring from 0 to 1 votes.

Here's the full post of this instance:

Spoiler:
In post 2070, Dierfire wrote:I've read through both PenguinPower and Lil Uzi Vert again. I don't find the depth of analysis that I find in other players (Prism, Zoronos, Grendel). In general I'd characterize this as not making effort to solve the game, which is suspicious.
I suppose that, if I trusted my reads on Prism, Zoronos, and Grendel, I'd start lynching by POE and drop a hammer on Lil Uzi Vert, but I'm reluctant to do so for two reasons.
First, the wagon on Shadow_step after the claim yesterday does not strike me as the sort of place to find a high density of Mafia players (it would have been far easier to vote for eagerSnake). This means that Lil Uzi Vert (and nn30) should be less suspicious than the other players I'm having difficulty reading (boring, PenguinPower). As a parallel to that, if nn30 is less suspicious, it becomes difficult to see why no suspicious players are voting for boring in the quoted VC.
Second, I don't really trust my reads on Prism, Zoronos, and Grendel. I have reasons to read each as Town but I'm simply finding it too good to be true that I've narrowed the Mafia players down so much.

In post 1150, podoboq wrote:
Official Vote Count 1.26
LynchingWith 13 votes in play, it takes 7 to lynch.

boring (5): eagerSnake, MariaR, implosion, Gamma Emerald, nn30
eagerSnake (4): Shadow_step, boring, PenguinPower, Grendel
PenguinPower (1): Dierfire
Shadow_step (1): Lil Uzi Vert

Not Voting (2): Zoronos, Prism


V/LA: none

Deadline: (expired on 2016-10-18 15:22:00)


My vote is for boring. I haven't seen many good reasons to read her as Mafia, but I've seen none to read her as Town and I think that the VC shows, at a minimum, Mafia players avoiding her wagon.

VOTE: boring


Some of the town have pointed out that it's textbook scum play to say 'I scum read my partner for these reasons, but here's why I'm voting elsewhere.'


For the moment, I'm actually more interested than a Dier lynch than a Grendel lynch.

VOTE: Dierfire

If he flips scum I'm going to need to reprocess my current reads because it means I'm making some incorrect assumptions.

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Post Post #2698  (isolation #333)  » Tue Nov 08, 2016 3:53 pm

@Boring - what do you think of Dier right now?

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Post Post #2702  (isolation #334)  » Tue Nov 08, 2016 6:50 pm

@Dier - I apologize for not making this clear in my original post. This is my fault.

The pattern I noticed was a lack of something - the willingness to start wagons on new people. It indicates that you are adding steam to where town is already heading, but unwilling to lead it in a new direction. This pattern is more likely to come from scum (who are incentivized to remain under the radar) than town.

The vote on Boring is scummy - not because it is on Boring (I would feel how I do regardless of who you voted for) - but because it wasn't on LUV and came at a time that indicates you could have been attempting to distract from the LUV wagon.

Also, if I'm not mistaken, you expressed reasons for scum reading LUV but never found yourself on his wagon.

As for the effort you put into your thoughts and posts, I see it and acknowledge it. If you're town I appreciate it even. However, if I'm under the assumption that you are scum (which I am right now) your votes mean monumentally more than your words.

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Post Post #2703  (isolation #335)  » Tue Nov 08, 2016 6:52 pm

On mobile right now. I can comment on the reasons you gave for votes later.

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Post Post #2710  (isolation #336)  » Tue Nov 08, 2016 8:46 pm

I'm focusing on the posts which encompass your not voting for LUV. I'd like an explanation from you regarding them.

Spoiler:
In post 2070, Dierfire wrote:1)I've read through both PenguinPower and Lil Uzi Vert again. I don't find the depth of analysis that I find in other players (Prism, Zoronos, Grendel). In general I'd characterize this as not making effort to solve the game, which is suspicious.
2)I suppose that, if I trusted my reads on Prism, Zoronos, and Grendel, I'd start lynching by POE and drop a hammer on Lil Uzi Vert, but I'm reluctant to do so for two reasons.
First, the wagon on Shadow_step after the claim yesterday does not strike me as the sort of place to find a high density of Mafia players (it would have been far easier to vote for eagerSnake). This means that Lil Uzi Vert (and nn30) should be less suspicious than the other players I'm having difficulty reading (boring, PenguinPower). As a parallel to that, if nn30 is less suspicious, it becomes difficult to see why no suspicious players are voting for boring in the quoted VC.
Second, I don't really trust my reads on Prism, Zoronos, and Grendel. I have reasons to read each as Town but I'm simply finding it too good to be true that I've narrowed the Mafia players down so much.

In post 1150, podoboq wrote:
Official Vote Count 1.26
LynchingWith 13 votes in play, it takes 7 to lynch.

boring (5): eagerSnake, MariaR, implosion, Gamma Emerald, nn30
eagerSnake (4): Shadow_step, boring, PenguinPower, Grendel
PenguinPower (1): Dierfire
Shadow_step (1): Lil Uzi Vert

Not Voting (2): Zoronos, Prism


V/LA: none

Deadline: (expired on 2016-10-18 15:22:00)


My vote is for boring. I haven't seen many good reasons to read her as Mafia, but I've seen none to read her as Town and I think that the VC shows, at a minimum, Mafia players avoiding her wagon.

VOTE: boring


1) You give a reason to scum read LUV
2) You explain why you aren't voting him

Spoiler:
In post 2194, Dierfire wrote:I believe the claim from Zoronos with a fair degree of certainty (it makes him at least as likely to be Town as Shadow_step).
1)I disbelieve the claim from Lil Uzi Vert for a few reasons. First, as Zoronos becomes more likely to be Town, my confidence in POE from earlier increases, which makes Lil Uzi Vert more likely to be Mafia at baseline. Second, the vote for Zoronos makes more sense from a Mafia player who claimed Doctor than from an actual Town Doctor (the latter has little reason to suspect that a Mafia player wants him lynched immediately rather than killed by Night, particularly at the cost of countering the claim).
2)I could think of two potential reasons to leave Lil Uzi Vert alive. First, if if Lil Uzi Vert is actually a Town Doctor, it would potentially allow Gamma Emerald another action. However, I'm inclined to think that the combination of Doctor and Cop, besides being rare, would likely have a Mafia role to counter this interaction. Therefore I think that this is not a good reason to leave Lil Uzi Vert alive. It does open one other long shot; if we lynch a player who flips with a role like Mafia Strongman or Mafia Roleblocker, the Doctor claim would be much more believable.


1) You don't believe the claim from LUV.
2) You present a reason for leaving him alive anyway.


Spoiler:
In post 2197, Dierfire wrote:@Lil Uzi Vert
Your vote for Zoronos is fairly bad. I could perhaps be persuaded that it's wise to defer a decision on your lynch today, but I'd need a good lynch option and Zoronos is not that.


Again, you present a reason to not like LUV, yet you don't vote him.


Spoiler:
Penguin hammered shortly after this. However, given how you felt about him leading up to this it's strange that you never hopped onto his wagon. The 'I scum read LUV but let's not vote him and here's why' is definitely more than a little hinky feeling.

Let's compare your treatment of LUV to your treatment of Eager.

Spoiler:
In post 1297, Dierfire wrote:All right, I've caught up.

I am virtually certain that Shadow_step has the Ascetic modifier, regardless of alignment (he was clearly setting up to counter the claim as soon as eagerSnake made it), and very confident that Shadow_step is Town (Mafia has low incentive to counter the claim). With eagerSnake, I was half expecting him to withdraw the claim; the fact that he hasn't rules out some Town plays (Bulletproof or Miller trying to draw the kill were my first thoughts, I also thought of Wary but I don't know if that's common on this site because I can't find it in the Wiki--certainly it's not Normal). It also weighs against some Mafia plays (I agree with the idea that a Mafia Ascetic role is powerful and probably unlikely to claim early without withdrawing the claim later, so I'd find a Mafia Goon more likely).

A few points since the claim make me suspicious of eagerSnake. First, and most obviously, eagerSnake actively resisted attempts by Zoronos ( and others) and nn30 () to provide content that would help us judge his alignment independently of the Ascetic claim. This seems consistent with a Mafia player in significant danger of being lynched and trying to avoid giving associative information (discussion of possible self-vote in is also consistent with that thought process). The vote on implosion in is also strange given that boring is the larger wagon and was the player eagerSnake was most confidently reading as Mafia (I don't see any change from ). Of course, I think that the reasons to vote for boring didn't hold much water in the first place (next post post after next), which is also suspicious (I'm not buying that eagerSnake was simply too uncertain to make a meaningful case--in that event, he should have been working at improving his reads rather than repetitively insisting that he was Town).

UNVOTE: PenguinPower
VOTE: eagerSnake

I want a full claim from eagerSnake.

I saw someone else ask this and get the "fishing" dodge, so to be clear: I am inclined to lynch eagerSnake unless he has some additional reason that we should leave him alive.


There's a lot more confidence in your read on Eager here as well as 0 credence given to Eager's theory that both he and Shadow were town.

Spoiler:
In post 1516, Dierfire wrote:I'm ready for a hammer.

You even ask for a hammer.


Spoiler:
Comparing your ambivalence towards LUV to your confidence in lynching Eager, and I'm just more convinced of my scum theory on you. Your behavior betrays hidden knowledge. Granted, I wasn't on the LUV wagon myself - I think I was a little snowed by him town reading me. So it's possible that you're a townie who was just more sure of Eager than of LUV. At the moment, I'm not inclined to believe that.

I look forward to your response to these things.

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Post Post #2712  (isolation #337)  » Tue Nov 08, 2016 9:08 pm

In post 1516, Dierfire wrote:I'm ready for a hammer.

Man, Dier, good luck responding to all of this in kind. We're collectively piling it on here.

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Post Post #2717  (isolation #338)  » Tue Nov 08, 2016 9:44 pm

@Grendel - Us hitting on similar points just means we're seeing similar (scummy) things from Dier.

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Post Post #2722  (isolation #339)  » Tue Nov 08, 2016 10:52 pm

@Grendel - how much mafia do you play? Did you gather that info yourself?

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Post Post #2725  (isolation #340)  » Wed Nov 09, 2016 1:42 am

In post 2719, Grendel wrote:Hey conf!town nn30, tell me what you think of Prism.


You're hilarious lol.

I have thought that Prism is town since you pointed out that he was drawing attention to himself in order to have people read him.

Haven't really dropped the town read since.

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Post Post #2728  (isolation #341)  » Wed Nov 09, 2016 11:29 am

@Boring - I'll add something to that as well.

I can't find the article on the wiki, but basically there was a theory article that suggested that scum like to find a tunnel and stick with it for the day.

It's safe to say that Shadow has been tunneling me 1) all day and 2) with dubious reasonings. I feel like I could have 1) done anything or 2) not done that very same thing and Shadow would scum read it either way. The dubious reasons for tunneling me suggest that his mind is immune to being changed, regardless of logic. His goal is to distract and put on a show, which he's done.

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Post Post #2735  (isolation #342)  » Wed Nov 09, 2016 12:39 pm

In post 2730, Shadow_step wrote:
In post 2728, nn30 wrote:@Boring - I'll add something to that as well.

I can't find the article on the wiki, but basically there was a theory article that suggested that scum like to find a tunnel and stick with it for the day.

It's safe to say that Shadow has been tunneling me 1) all day and 2) with dubious reasonings. I feel like I could have 1) done anything or 2) not done that very same thing and Shadow would scum read it either way. The dubious reasons for tunneling me suggest that his mind is immune to being changed, regardless of logic. His goal is to distract and put on a show, which he's done.


Tunneling you for dubious reasoning? Seriously! :igmeou:
VCA is dubious ?
POE is dubious?
You voting me day 1 which is dripping with scum motivation is dubious?

I swear if you misrep and lie one more time I will fucking tunnel you to the ground.


Yes, your reasonings have been dubious. The fact that you can't see that isn't helping you rn.

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Post Post #2736  (isolation #343)  » Wed Nov 09, 2016 12:41 pm

Every post you've made all game has been dripping with confidence, too. Townies are supposed to be unsure of themselves. You display no trepidation about anything you do or say.

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Post Post #2738  (isolation #344)  » Wed Nov 09, 2016 12:49 pm

In post 2737, Shadow_step wrote:
In post 2736, nn30 wrote:Every post you've made all game has been dripping with confidence, too. Townies are supposed to be unsure of themselves. You display no trepidation about anything you do or say.


That's no way to play as town.
We'll discuss this post game.


There it is again - it's your way or the highway.

The confidence betrays hidden knowledge. That's why it feels scummy. It's possible to play town in that manner, but more likely to come from scum.

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Post Post #2739  (isolation #345)  » Wed Nov 09, 2016 12:52 pm

I'll make a probabilistic argument.

100% sure town - how you've been playing

75% sure town - confident, but willing to be wrong if persuaded.

50% sure town - basically coinflips the whole game. On the long term this kind of player will have a 50/50 win rate as well - since they are neither helping nor harming their team in an otherwise balanced setup (this is assuming mafia set ups are balanced by the way.)

I'm arguing against the 100% confident townie in favor of the 75% confident townie.

I believe you're misinterpreting me to think that a 50% confident townie is what I'm arguing. It's not.

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Post Post #2741  (isolation #346)  » Wed Nov 09, 2016 12:55 pm

Sorry for the spammy posts.

For the sake of clarity I'm still on Dierfire right now.

Before someone asks why I'm talking about Shadow being scummy while voting Dierfire, it's because Dierfire has yet to come back and respond to the case against him. Multitasking scum hunting is a thing that can happen.

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Post Post #2743  (isolation #347)  » Wed Nov 09, 2016 1:04 pm

I skimmed newbie 1746.

There's a lot of arrogance in that game too.

Just from skimming, I didn't feel that you were being anti-helpful to town that game though. This game still feels different.

We can talk further in end game if you wish.

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Post Post #2745  (isolation #348)  » Wed Nov 09, 2016 1:48 pm

I get that.

It's up to town to decide what they think of me.

Yes, two people voted me, but that's the extent of my being scum read this game.

Those people have since removed their votes - obviously, they've changed their minds. Well, for now at least.

Since then I've been given strong town reads by multiple people. In fact, Implosion (who is actually confirmed town) picked apart the last time you scum read me by calling your logic bad. I'm not the only one who thinks your logic is dubious at times.

What weighs more? The two people who temporarily voted me? Or everyone who is now town reading me?

Contrarily, I've bounced you back and forth between town and scum. You've done things which indicate both alignments and I've voiced both versions on the thread at some point. You aren't giving any credence to a possible Nn30 town - which is my frustration with you.

You said yourself - you peg scum 80% of the time early on. You were wrong about Eager - what's stopping you from being wrong about me, too?

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Post Post #2766  (isolation #349)  » Wed Nov 09, 2016 3:35 pm

In post 2753, Shadow_step wrote:
In post 2734, Shadow_step wrote:
In post 2731, boring wrote:
In post 2729, Shadow_step wrote:I've responded to the first part which you never replied to.

If I'm an ascetic RB, this setup is ridiculously scum sided, so that whole argument is balls.

Next

What are you even talking about? The first part includes responses.
Why do you really think If I'm an ascetic RB, this setup is ridiculously scum sided is relevant to anything I've said? I don't think you're necessarily ascetic or RB. I just think you're scum.


I can't even be ascetic mafia goon, too scumsided.
So let me get this straight. You're case against me is that I CCed Eager a useless role at night(according to threat to mafia) by a role I didn't have ?
So apparently I can get fucked any night if someone bothers to check me.

Yeah okay. Brilliant case. You want a scummy?


Just say "yes this is my case" for my sanity.

Anyone scum reading me should consider this.
It's impossible for me to be mafia ascetic anything because of the minimal amount of power town has and ascetic can counter both.


We have 1) a cop 2) probably a deputy and 3) probably a jailer and 4) an ascetic.

We could have a mafia ascetic something in this game. Just means mafia power is concentrated on one member. Not impossible.

Plus, if you're mafia, there's no guarantee you're ascetic. You cc'ing Eager could have been a gambit where you lied as easily as one where you have a mafia PR.

Even your speculation of what could and couldn't be in this game is overly confident.

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Post Post #2767  (isolation #350)  » Wed Nov 09, 2016 3:36 pm

In post 2757, boring wrote:As I've said before, I'm willing to vote Dierfire if we can't lynch Shadow today. If you're willing to vote Dierfire too, then I guess we'll have our five.


I'm not.

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Post Post #2768  (isolation #351)  » Wed Nov 09, 2016 3:37 pm

In post 2764, Shadow_step wrote:VOTE: DF

Fuck it


Whelp.

Now he's dead before he even got to defend himself.

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Post Post #2769  (isolation #352)  » Wed Nov 09, 2016 3:46 pm

In post 2765, PenguinPower wrote:Suggestions on who everyone thinks I should investigate - should I not die - would be nice. Probably won't listen, but info is always good.


I'll just tell you where my brain would be if I were you.

Confirming what we think we know would be a good start. So, Zoronos would be a good idea - though you're risking scum killing Zoro and you getting nothing useful here.

Same logic goes for shadow - though if he is ascetic, we still won't know his alignment. In a world where I could guarantee my investigation working, I'd go for Zoro over Shadow since it's more likely to turn up something useful.

Boring, myself, or Grendel are good ideas too. We each had some heat today - knowing if at least one of us does (or doesn't) deserve rope is a good thing to have. Between the three of us, I'd rank the importance of investigating Grendel > Boring > me.

I don't think there's a scenario where I investigate Prism.

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Post Post #2770  (isolation #353)  » Wed Nov 09, 2016 3:47 pm

In post 2759, Shadow_step wrote:So anyone who thinks I'm scum has to commit to stance that I am mafia who didn't have ascetic countered Eager a useless role when none of my buddies were under any pressure or I was for that matter. I did that when I didn't have ascetic myself so I can get fucked by even a tracked getting a "didn't go anywhere" result


Isn't that the idea behind a gambit? High risk high reward?

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Post Post #2771  (isolation #354)  » Wed Nov 09, 2016 3:48 pm

In post 2767, nn30 wrote:
In post 2757, boring wrote:As I've said before, I'm willing to vote Dierfire if we can't lynch Shadow today. If you're willing to vote Dierfire too, then I guess we'll have our five.


I'm not.


Whoops, meant to quote the post where someone asked if someone was willing to defend Dier.

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Post Post #2775  (isolation #355)  » Wed Nov 09, 2016 3:51 pm

In post 2764, Shadow_step wrote:VOTE: DF

Fuck it


Shadow you dirty dog.

Goddamnit lol.

I'm so gullible.

@Boring - thanks... lol.

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Post Post #2784  (isolation #356)  » Wed Nov 09, 2016 6:38 pm

@Implosion - so you're saying Zoro would say this:

In case of scum flip - I'll jail xxx

In case of town flip - I'll keep you guessing because WIFOM and not wanting to tip off scum.

Correct?

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Post Post #2786  (isolation #357)  » Wed Nov 09, 2016 8:43 pm

@Boring - please wait for Dier to come back and say something before hammering. I'm sure you already intended on that, but yeah.

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Post Post #2791  (isolation #358)  » Wed Nov 09, 2016 11:20 pm

With the setup spec conversation, I'm basically stuck taking everyone's word for it. I didn't even know what to expect from this game as it's my first normal. I am wary because of this, especially when the loudest contributor is you Shadow.

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Post Post #2794  (isolation #359)  » Wed Nov 09, 2016 11:50 pm

@Implosion - In your experience, how often do scum play the 'here's what I think you should do when I flip town' card.

I know we don't have stats or anything, but is it common? Grendel basically did the same thing too.

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Post Post #2795  (isolation #360)  » Wed Nov 09, 2016 11:57 pm

@Dier - can you qualify your suspicion of Grendel, please? I know you don't have time tonight but at some point I'd like to hear your version.

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Post Post #2812  (isolation #361)  » Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:12 am

I have good feels about prism and slightly less (but still good) feels about zoro. If they would prefer another lynch that's fine by me. Implo is conf town.

VOTE: grendel

That's l-1

That said, I get the impression that none of the three of you gave any lengthy consideration to why I'm finding Died scummy. It seems that the three of you are still on your '???' reads from 15 pages ago.

If this is true let me know. I'll point you back to the posts I want you to look at.

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Post Post #2813  (isolation #362)  » Thu Nov 10, 2016 1:11 pm

Also, I just want to acknowledge that I know Implosion is for a Boring lynch.

2/3 of the people I'm confident in want Grendel, hence my vote.

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Post Post #2816  (isolation #363)  » Thu Nov 10, 2016 4:07 pm

@Implosion - 2697, 2702, 2710.

@Town - would someone kindly explain to me how to link to posts (as it would have been useful above).

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Post Post #2818  (isolation #364)  » Thu Nov 10, 2016 4:21 pm

Thank you Penguin!

@Implosion

, ,

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Post Post #2822  (isolation #365)  » Thu Nov 10, 2016 5:26 pm

@Boring - I do.

And you're right, town could be wrong very easily. But if I'm going with the people I'm confident in at least I'm confident that I'm not being intentionally misled.

,

[bold]@ Mod - The second link goes to the wrong place, funnily enough. Must be a bug with the site. Notice how it reads 2577 but leads to 2557? I've left it here as evidence of this bug - who should I point this out to, if anyone? [/bold]

Game related - just ISO me and look for post 2577. It's the one I mean (not the linked one).

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Post Post #2826  (isolation #366)  » Fri Nov 11, 2016 12:47 am

@Grendel - I'm going to remember Belgian waffle peddler for a long time.

1st - you seem like you're resigning yourself to being lynched. Not a fan :/

If you flip town, I'd like to have a long discussion with you in post game about my play. I think your nick-name for me is getting at the fact that I'm bouncing around a lot. That's indicative of me not really knowing how to scum hunt - so my confidence in my scum reads is low. If you have any suggestions for me in the post game, please let me know. We can still talk if you're scum but it will be less useful to me since you will have looked at my play through a different lens.

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Post Post #2827  (isolation #367)  » Fri Nov 11, 2016 12:49 am

In post 2825, Shadow_step wrote:4 lynches, 5 players unconfirmed players.
So close to auto win.
.


Unless my math is wrong, we have 9 remaining players. Your post suggests we have 4 conf! players. Please list them so that I can reference this information later.

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Post Post #2851  (isolation #368)  » Sun Nov 13, 2016 3:18 pm

@Dierfire - I want the in-depth version of the defense you should have given yesterday. Specifically my points on you contained in 2697, 2702, and 2710.

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Post Post #2854  (isolation #369)  » Sun Nov 13, 2016 5:46 pm

@Boring - I'm open to the option that Shadow is Scum. I think his interactions with LUV don't feel like partner v. partner and that his D1 gambit doesn't make sense from scum, but literally everything else Shadow has done this game points to the possibility of him being scum.

After this amount of prodding I don't see Shadow hopping off the Dier wagon now, however.

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Post Post #2856  (isolation #370)  » Sun Nov 13, 2016 5:52 pm

@Zoronos - what have you learned from your night action, if anything?

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Post Post #2860  (isolation #371)  » Sun Nov 13, 2016 8:40 pm

@Prism I want to start with Dierfire. I'm not sold on Boring as scum.

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Post Post #2862  (isolation #372)  » Sun Nov 13, 2016 10:02 pm

In post 2861, Zoronos wrote:Obviously that did nothing useful.


Can you explain the thought process you went through in order to arrive at jailing me?

I'm looking for a series of 'if then, then that' statements. I want to look at the logical steps you went through.

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Post Post #2866  (isolation #373)  » Sun Nov 13, 2016 11:09 pm

In post 2863, Zoronos wrote:I was out of town and just said 'fuck it maybe everything i think I know about is wrong, and if NN is scum the scum team would never expect me to jail him since I town read him, ergo if he's scum he's likely the one running the NK.'


So... no consideration for jailing Penguin, like, at all?

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Post Post #2867  (isolation #374)  » Sun Nov 13, 2016 11:10 pm

In post 2866, nn30 wrote:
In post 2863, Zoronos wrote:I was out of town and just said 'fuck it maybe everything i think I know about is wrong, and if NN is scum the scum team would never expect me to jail him since I town read him, ergo if he's scum he's likely the one running the NK.'


So... no consideration for jailing Penguin, like, at all?


You know when something leaves your mouth, and it immediately sounds dumb? This is one of those things.

Jailing him removes his ability to investigate.

Nevermind.

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Post Post #2868  (isolation #375)  » Sun Nov 13, 2016 11:12 pm

@Shadow - HOW THE HELL ARE YOU STILL SO COCKY JESUS CHRIST. THERE IS NO AUTO WIN, WE'RE DOWN A TOWNIE IN A BRAND NEW NEWBIE GAME. THEY'RE IN THE LEAD!!!!!!!!!

sldkfjlsdkfjsldkfjsdlfkj
sldkfjsdlkfjsdlkfjsdlkfjdslkfj
sdlkfjsldkfjsldkfjsdlkfj



That is all.

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Post Post #2869  (isolation #376)  » Sun Nov 13, 2016 11:13 pm

In post 2868, nn30 wrote:@Shadow - HOW THE HELL ARE YOU STILL SO COCKY JESUS CHRIST. THERE IS NO AUTO WIN, WE'RE DOWN A TOWNIE IN A BRAND NEW NEWBIE GAME. THEY'RE IN THE LEAD!!!!!!!!!

sldkfjlsdkfjsldkfjsdlfkj
sldkfjsdlkfjsdlkfjsdlkfjdslkfj
sdlkfjsldkfjsldkfjsdlkfj



That is all.


Down two townies*

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Post Post #2876  (isolation #377)  » Mon Nov 14, 2016 12:24 am

In post 2865, Shadow_step wrote:
In post 2863, Zoronos wrote:I was out of town and just said 'fuck it maybe everything i think I know about is wrong, and if NN is scum the scum team would never expect me to jail him since I town read him, ergo if he's scum he's likely the one running the NK.'


So the scum teams are

DF/boring
Boring/prism
DF/Prism

The only team in which I cannot see nn30 not doing the kill is nn/Prism.

We can auto win just by lynching these 3.


What's your read on me, exactly?

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Post Post #2878  (isolation #378)  » Mon Nov 14, 2016 12:28 am

In post 2870, Shadow_step wrote:I'm not cocky I'm using basic logic.
It isn't too difficult.

A DF/nn scum team with nn not doing the kill makes no sense at all. So we can eliminate that.

So the things we can do today are
Lynch DF that will clear nn if df flips red.

Lynch Prism, cause prism/nn is the only scum team in which nn doesn't do the kill.

Zoronos was TR boring as well so boring/nn is also possible but meh.

So my plan is lynch Prism today, then boring. If both flip scum brilliant we win.
If only one of them does we get to decide between nn/df who the last scum is.


Hoooooooly crap this isn't even self-consistently logical.

If lynching Df actually means I'm cleared, this should be number 1 priority since it comes with an auto clear.

Yet you want to start with Prism... who nobody has actually scum read basically all game...

And even if you want to start with Prism, your vote certainly isn't there right now. That makes 0 sense.

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Post Post #2880  (isolation #379)  » Mon Nov 14, 2016 12:30 am

In post 2879, Shadow_step wrote:I didn't check your profile goddamnit.


You said he'd been here for years?!?!

What the hell DID you do?

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Post Post #2884  (isolation #380)  » Mon Nov 14, 2016 12:37 am

In post 2882, Shadow_step wrote:
In post 2878, nn30 wrote:
In post 2870, Shadow_step wrote:I'm not cocky I'm using basic logic.
It isn't too difficult.

A DF/nn scum team with nn not doing the kill makes no sense at all. So we can eliminate that.

So the things we can do today are
Lynch DF that will clear nn if df flips red.

Lynch Prism, cause prism/nn is the only scum team in which nn doesn't do the kill.

Zoronos was TR boring as well so boring/nn is also possible but meh.

So my plan is lynch Prism today, then boring. If both flip scum brilliant we win.
If only one of them does we get to decide between nn/df who the last scum is.


Hoooooooly crap this isn't even self-consistently logical.

If lynching Df actually means I'm cleared, this should be number 1 priority since it comes with an auto clear.

Yet you want to start with Prism... who nobody has actually scum read basically all game...

And even if you want to start with Prism, your vote certainly isn't there right now. That makes 0 sense.


:facepalm: :facepalm:

Why are you so horrible at seeing the obvious.
Gawd I hate newbies.
Have you considered what happens if DF flips town???!!!
The chance of nn/prism scum team still exists. So who do lynch at lylo?


The same thing if Boring or Prism flip town. Nothing. The only lynch which comes with a possible upside is Dier (as it auto clears me).

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Post Post #2885  (isolation #381)  » Mon Nov 14, 2016 12:41 am

VOTE: Shadow_Step

You can count on my vote being there for the next 11 days. If town hasn't decided that Shadow is worth lynching by then, and I haven't died, I'll consider competing cases and make a determination at that time.

Shadow has been at best unhelpful town. His reads have been inconsistent. His confidence throughout the game has been at best frustrating and at worst indicates he's scum (since he already knows who is and isn't town).

I'm just tired of having to talk to him. If he flips town, well, at least we'll get to discuss lylo without his rude ass.

nn30
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Post Post #2898  (isolation #382)  » Mon Nov 14, 2016 11:03 am

UNVOTE:

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Post Post #2901  (isolation #383)  » Mon Nov 14, 2016 11:30 am

@BlackVoid - why were you following the game? I assume you know podo? Don't answer this if it's inappropriate, just curious. Whatever the reason, I'm glad you're here.

Game related - I've yet to be sold on arguments that Boring is scum. Boring's treatment of LUV on both D1 and D2 suggest town or scum who plan busses before they're necessary. I see what you're saying regarding her posts being manipulative, but until someone convinces me of why bussing LUV from so early on is a good scum play I'm going to continue hitting this road block. Help me out here.

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Post Post #2902  (isolation #384)  » Mon Nov 14, 2016 11:35 am

In post 2899, BlackVoid wrote:While it's technically possible Zoronos is scum, I don't think his play around LUV looked like he was cc'ing a partner. For one, he did it way too quick instead of checking to see if town cc's him first. I don't find him scummy either way so I'll safely eliminate him from suspicion along with Implosion. That leaves me with four players: Boring, Prism, nn30, and Dierfire.


I got a slight scum ping on Zoronos today. While it absolutely could have happened by accident, Zoronos' jailings have all been on townies. Grendel and GE are townies and I know my own alignment - which means (from my perspective - I know you're scum reading me but bear with me) Zoro has jailed three townies.

Beyond that, the fact that his counter claim of LUV happened so quickly could suggest it was planned in scum chat.

I don't feel strongly enough about this to consider pushing Zoro today, and basically everything else he's done has felt towny, but it is worth considering.

nn30
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Post Post #2904  (isolation #385)  » Mon Nov 14, 2016 12:16 pm

In post 2903, BlackVoid wrote:I don't know the mod. I was just casually following. No particular reason.

Implosion did a really good job explaining why Boring's play around LUV doesn't preclude them from being partners. That aside, LUV was an early wagon, he wasn't widely townread. It looked like sooner or later, he was going to take the fall. He was also a goon. Bussing a little before you need to is actually optimal strategy for a bus because that's when you get maximum cred. Not all scum are going to sit by voting townies until their partner is nearly lynched and then bus at the last moment.

Boring herself was scumread enough to have an L-2 wagon on her D1. When multiple scum are under pressure or in people's process-of-elimination lists, it can be very hard to stop themselves from being boxed out and lynched one by one. To do well in a situation like that, it isn't enough to fly below the radar, you have to be on people's townlists. If your own play can't achieve that, bussing is the last resort.

On Zoronos, even if they planned it, they wouldn't want to do it quickly. What if there was an actual town doc or town jailkeeper? Those aren't exactly uncommon roles. It would have been a disaster.


Both good points. Thank you for the analysis.

As for Boring scum - I can see it now.
As for Zoronos claim - you're right. Choosing the role to counterclaim (jailkeeper) would be a risk that could backfire. Your reasoning is sound.

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Post Post #2908  (isolation #386)  » Mon Nov 14, 2016 1:17 pm

In post 2906, Dierfire wrote:The analysis by Shadow_step in seems solid to me; nn30 would be most likely to make the kill if boring is Mafia.

So what do we do with that?

Well, a team of boring and Grendel was the last option that I had to not revise my POE, so I'll have to read Shadow_step, nn30, and Prism again, but I'm leaning toward offering the suicide pact anyway. I don't see many games in which boring is Town and there are two Mafia players in that set of three.

@Dier - thank you for responding to my case.

In post 2906, Dierfire wrote:The analysis by Shadow_step in seems solid to me; nn30 would be most likely to make the kill if boring is Mafia.

So what do we do with that?

p-edit - agreed on prism/shadow unlikely scum team.

Well, a team of boring and Grendel was the last option that I had to not revise my POE, so I'll have to read Shadow_step, nn30, and Prism again, but I'm leaning toward offering the suicide pact anyway. I don't see many games in which boring is Town and there are two Mafia players in that set of three.



In this suicide pact, who do we lynch today?

If boring flips red, what does that mean for your alignment (if anything)?

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Post Post #2909  (isolation #387)  » Mon Nov 14, 2016 1:17 pm

@Dier - agreed on the shadow / prism unlikely team.

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Post Post #2912  (isolation #388)  » Mon Nov 14, 2016 1:28 pm

@Dier - got it. Thank you.

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Post Post #2913  (isolation #389)  » Mon Nov 14, 2016 1:29 pm

If the scum team is Boring / x, who do you think the other person is if not you?

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Post Post #2915  (isolation #390)  » Mon Nov 14, 2016 1:34 pm

For the record, Dier's defense felt a lot like 'yeah, a lot of that is accurate and kind of looks bad. Here's an alternate explanation for everything that I have an alternate explanation for.'

As a result, I'm dialing back my scum read on him.

I'd like to lynch Boring and then discuss options after her flip.

P-edit: Okay! Thanks Dier.

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Post Post #2917  (isolation #391)  » Mon Nov 14, 2016 2:16 pm

VOTE: boring

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Post Post #2923  (isolation #392)  » Mon Nov 14, 2016 10:51 pm

@Blackvoid - one question, why am I strong town in your stream of consciousness list? The note you have about me contradicts that. If I were to guess based on the note I'd put me at a scum lean.

What gives?

Also, can you qualify your prism scum read with some post D1 stuff? I've had him strongly town for a while - I'd like to know why this contradicts what I think.

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Post Post #2928  (isolation #393)  » Tue Nov 15, 2016 5:12 pm

@Dier - what are your thoughts on the suicide pact at this moment?

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Post Post #2931  (isolation #394)  » Tue Nov 15, 2016 6:20 pm

Ftr, I think there was a miscommunication here. The suicide pact I'm referring to is Dier/Boring. It doesn't involve Prism.

Let's spitball here. If there's exactly two scum in Boring / Dier, gg. If there's zero scum in Boring / Dier, also gg.

I'm fairly certain the momentum points towards both of those people being lynched next. I'm not sure about order but probably Boring first.

I want to talk about the version of those events where the game continues on: the case where there's one scum and one town in that list. Who do we go after next?

My gut says it's Black Void. Here's why:

In post 2921, BlackVoid wrote:Sure, I can post the stream-of-consciousness notes I took in excel. Not sure how helpful it'll be to read me since I did them all before receiving my role PM but it'll help you see my reasoning.


If you're reading a game and you don't have a role pm, you're a ghost with a town's perspective.

This quote suggests that Black Void's reading of the game changed when he received his role pm - suggesting he received a scum pm.

Thoughts?

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Post Post #2933  (isolation #395)  » Tue Nov 15, 2016 7:25 pm

@BlackVoid - Assuming my assessment of town momentum is correct (the next two lynches are Dier / Boring) and that the game doesn't end via these lynches, where do you suggest we go next?

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Post Post #2936  (isolation #396)  » Tue Nov 15, 2016 7:43 pm

Why?

nn30
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Post Post #2938  (isolation #397)  » Tue Nov 15, 2016 7:50 pm

So PoE. Got it.

Thank you.

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Post Post #2940  (isolation #398)  » Tue Nov 15, 2016 7:51 pm

In post 2921, BlackVoid wrote:Sure, I can post the stream-of-consciousness notes I took in excel. Not sure how helpful it'll be to read me since I did them all before receiving my role PM but it'll help you see my reasoning.


What was your intention when you said this?

Obviously I'm scum reading you for it - I'd like to hear your alternative explanation.

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Post Post #2942  (isolation #399)  » Tue Nov 15, 2016 8:10 pm

It bothers me because it reads like your view of the game changed when you got a role pm.

I'm not understanding your last sentence. Please rephrase and ask again.

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