Mini Normal #1838 - Game Over

[nn30]

Point and case.

Miss not mess.

[podoboq]

Official Vote Count 3.10

Lynching

With 9 votes in play, it takes 5 to lynch.

boring (3): Prism, implosion, PenguinPoqer
Grendel (2): Zoronos, Dierfire
nn30 (1): Shadow_step
PenguinPower (1): boring
Shadow_step (1): Grendel

Not Voting (1): nn30

V/LA: Zoronos

Deadline: (expired on 2016-11-14 13:30:00)

[boring]

He's capable of following instructions, right? Do you think he thought up the doc gambit all by his lonesome?

In my experience with him. No, and No. He would need message-crafting level coaching to buddy someone; not just guidance to buddy.

You'll have to forgive me if I don't take your word for it. Regardless, I can't be the only person he buddied.

You're starting to get a little flippant in your posting, which I appreciate - if you were town.

This comment worries me. I know this is an argument being used by someone(s) to townread you. Your attempt to apply it to me feels ham-handed. It's as if you're trying to reinforce this perception of you, rather than determine my alignment.

Grendel's latest post reinforces my read on you, btw.

Please elaborate.

[boring]

"worries" is the wrong word. I'm past worried. "Irks"? "Helps supports my scum read"? Helps support my scum read.

[PenguinPower]

You'll have to forgive me if I don't take your word for it. Regardless, I can't be the only person he buddied.

You actually seem to be, on his ISO read. At least, the only one I was able to discern. Please feel free to find another.

This comment worries me. I know this is an argument being used by someone(s) to townread you. Your attempt to apply it to me feels ham-handed. It's as if you're trying to reinforce this perception of you, rather than determine my alignment.

I'm me, and you're you. I've been flippant since my first post in this thread. You haven't been, so the change is noteworthy to me.

Please elaborate.

Um...I think he's second scum and he town reads you. That furthers my read on you. How is that difficult to understand?

Straws, boring. Grab at them.

[nn30]

Um...I think he's second scum and he town reads you. That furthers my read on you. How is that difficult to understand?

Nitpicking here.

Scum buddy, and scum bus.

Grendel having Boring as a town read is NAI until you figure out that 1) Grendel is actually scum and 2) how he behaves.

[PenguinPower]

Um...I think he's second scum and he town reads you. That furthers my read on you. How is that difficult to understand?

Nitpicking here.

Scum buddy, and scum bus.

Grendel having Boring as a town read is NAI until you figure out that 1) Grendel is actually scum and 2) how he behaves.

Um...no. I have a secondary scum read who townreads my primary scum when they are the leading wagon while throwing a vote on a random player. There's no "nitpicking" or "NAI" involved. It strengthens my primary read. Not going to make me hop on over to the secondary at this point, but it still has an effect.

[boring]

This comment worries me. I know this is an argument being used by someone(s) to townread you. Your attempt to apply it to me feels ham-handed. It's as if you're trying to reinforce this perception of you, rather than determine my alignment.

I'm me, and you're you. I've been flippant since my first post in this thread. You haven't been, so the change is noteworthy to me.

Still clumsy. First, I've not been flippant at all. Second, who is deliberately flippant the point that they would choose describe themselves as such?

Please elaborate.

Um...I think he's second scum and he town reads you. That furthers my read on you. How is that difficult to understand?

Straws, boring. Grab at them.[/quote] Not difficult to understand, I just wanted you to spell it out.

You are scum reading us both, and at least one other player is doing (Dier, I think) the same. Don't you think one of us would have simply pretended to buy into one of the not-so-spectacular theories running around as an excuse to distance?

[boring]

@prism - I don't remember if you've been asked this already. I get that you're all gungho on the boring wagon today, but how are you feeling about PP? If I was off the table, how willing are you to lynch him?

[Grendel]

I had this weird feeling creeping up on me yesterday that Prisum has been trying to pocket me this whole game.

But has made zero attempts at white knighting since I've come under fire. So I guess I was wrong?

In past days I've said virtually nothing about your alignment, the only times I did were that I liked your RVS questions and that I liked one specific post Day 2. The only reason I've ever given to townread you is based off Maria's death. In contrast, I've also pointed out that certain posts of yours were bad, and some of them worse yet replying to me without actually reading the original post (which suggests you weren't interested in them to begin with). You've been basically in the middle to bottom half of the game, and I've made it explicit that I intend to vote you today if I can't get boring. If boring is town, you are almost certainly scum by PoE. If boring is scum, you are still a very likely candidate for the partner.

You didn't even acknowledge repeated announcements for you as a potential alternative lynch, both today and yesterday. I'm not just not whiteknighting you, I'm straight up more on the offense. Between this and 2-3 other posts that appear unconcerned as to what I'm actually thinking, and boring pushing a PP lynch, you've definitely earned the second spot. I'll ISO you sometime tomorrow night.

If I’ve been bouncing around the middle of bottom you reads what was up with the times you scratched my chin? Like announcing whenever I made a high quality post? Do you just randomly hand out compliments to your scum reads?

Yea, I had you as town for a while, but wasn’t super interested in teaming up with you so I didn’t give your posts and cases priority over the others that I needed to sort, or was more interested in generally. Do you normally consider people that are clearly disinterested in you to be scummy?

I could see what you mean if I had you down as a strong scum read, but that isn't the case.

I’m pretty sure the only time I entirely forgot something you presented was when I was confused that you blindly followed Implosion’s meta argument, which you explained as a miscommunication. You are now mad that I had forgotten that first encounter, which I am explaining as a miscommunication on my part. Do you want an Asop, or is my point clear?

2) I think that boring is town, but a lot of it is based off of gut, and notes I took yesterday. I don't think I can lynch her.

What do you think of the case on her though? Obviously you believe it to be incorrect - why though?

The thing about the boring case is that I feel like she has been in a lot of peoples scum lean for much of the game. In this position its more likely that scum would try to lurk out the pressure. From what I’ve seen boring has been pretty on top of things and actively contributing to the gamestate. The near constant pressure makes me think that town is just being paranoid, thus watching and dissecting boring more than any other player. Also, more than town paranoia there is the chance of mafia taking advantage of this at some point, and into today.

Things that could possibly point to scum boring look circumstantial, like scum reading her for her unvote to LUV. It seems like she had some doubts about the Doc claim but didn’t want to make a mistake and accidentally flip the town doctor. It was a pretty natural reaction that I don’t think was fake. I don’t wholly understand how LUV’s lack of a counter strike towards boring should paint boring as bussing scum since LUV would want to distance himself from boring, which I don’t really recall happening. I also don't see boring being the hard bussing type, and she was on the LUV wagon for extended periods of time all of D2, even with the existence of an appetizing Gamma wagon was happening on the side. She had multiple times she could of justified leaving the LUV wagon. The only time she unvoted LUV was when he fake claimed, but most people did at the time so...

I don’t agree with what Eager had as a case on boring. I don’t agree with his tone read on boring being happy with the D1 cc. Or his assurance that boring must be scum based off a lack of action on her wagon early into D1. I mainly believe this to be so because there were people who voiced suspicions, but didn’t scum read her enough to put any more votes down. I think if scum were jumping on boring’s wagon they’d do it when she was the focus of discussion. Lastly, the fact that Penguin is swayed by Eager’s argument now after a whole day goes by looks opportunistic. If he truly thought that Eager was on to something why did he why so long to point this out?

I still don’t think Maria night kill points towards boring!scum.

I did wonder when I first thought that shadow is scum if he was hard defending boring because he wouldn’t want another buddy bussed with him being a claimed role and all. But at the same time, if shadow sees that town!boring is today’s lynch he may be trying to put himself in a good light by town reading her.

[Grendel]

@Grendel

lol idk how to properly quote from a locked thread.

If you hit the "PM" button at the lower left of a post, whether or not the thread is locked, it will generate a draft with post quoted (it will be a PM draft, but you can copy/paste that into a post in the correct thread, and I usually clean up the quote tag as well so that it looks good).

---
You make some interesting points about Shadow_step that I'll consider further. What do you think of the fact that boring was having doubt about Shadow_step (2290), and the posts from Lil Uzi Vert that I quoted in response (2292)?

Spoiler:

@boring

@Dierfire - Can you explain why you are certain about Shadow being town? I still have some doubt, based on the facts that he's unconfirmed and eager really was town ascetic.

A few of the posts that Lil Uzi Vert directed at Shadow_step seemed like unlikely partner interactions to me.

Good this should be an easy game. I have a couple of town reads too.
Need to hear more from Slandaar/Maria/Diet to sort them out.

You keep implying this game will be easy. I seriously hope you have a backup plan for when I flip town.

This reads to me like ATE, which is a technique used against a Town player rather than a partner.

Calling me a VI? Okay that is just bullshit.
Esp since you have no idea with am I talking about.

Never called you a VI, I thought you was one though. Why so angry?

And you're right, I don't know what you're talking about, but no one else does either. Mind sharing what knowledge you may or may not have to determine how you're finding this game easier then the rest of us?

This seems a little too confrontational to be staged. Also the "do you mind sharing" bit seems like Lil Uzi Vert is legitimately probing for information rather than teeing up a partner.

Yeah I honestly don't know what the hell happened the last 5 pages, just seems like poorly calculated move by Shadow regardless if he's telling the truth or not.

This makes it seem as though Lil Uzi Vert was not in on the plan if Shadow_step is Mafia with an elaborate claim strategy.

I’ve always seen “I hope you know what to do when I flip town”, to be a meaningless statement that is Non-ai, and could easily be fake for distancing.

I think your second point could be faked on Shadow’s part, and I don’t find LUV especially confrontational there. If shadow were planning to run a cc gambit against Eager then I’m unsure why LUV would be poking at it. Since that would be what he was doing here. It doesn’t rule them out as a scum team though.

For your last point I’d say that LUV wouldn't take a stance that demonstrated that he was in a knowing position. Kind of why I feel like his push on Shadow later into the day was to distance himself from Shadow down the road. This point could technically justify the previous one now that I think about it.

I like that boring expressed some skepticism on Shadow because I feel the slot deserves some skepticism. If Shadow really is town I don't think that scum would be ballzy enough to bring up this point while Shadow is generally town read. If Shadow and boring were partners I don't think boring would call him out on it either. Thank you for pointing me to this because it has completely destroyed the possibility of boring being scum with Shadow.

I meant to ask this earlier, but do you know if our mod had knowledge of 1809?

I feel like most people are viewing this as a left felid theory, and I want something to reel them into the possibility that Shadow is scum. I am interested in any further considerations you have for me.

You said that your vote on me was PoE, have you found anything beyond that since?

[Grendel]

The fact that nn30 was off the Eager wagon is more damning. Scum knew he was town and didn't want to be on his wagon. They wanted town to destroy themselves, look at LUV's wagon position. He was so reluctant to join the Eager wagon.

Okay, so Shadow is scum and scums were all on Eager’s wagon D1. In retrospect, that would explain LUV’s awkward hammer at EoD. It also explains MariaR’s death, made to prevent people narrowing down scum on Eager wagon. Shadow entered into D2 talking about how Eager was the proper lynch and all that jazz to dissuade scum hunting off of that wagon.

on

Let's be frank, any scum lynch will have scum on the train bussing.
The line *I* draw is "is my scum read the person leading the train". I know that's why I refused to hop on the LUV train yesterday.

Do you think Penguin is leading this train? (Let's be fair, I haven't been paying much attention the past 2 days, so I just don't know at this point.)

He isn't leading it, but I don't expect scum to buss today. With one scum down and 3-4 conf townies. Unless the lynch of the buddy is inevitable I don't expect scum to buss.

At this point it might be as easy as a grendel/boring scum team. Grendel is trying to lynch me because he doesn't want to buss boring.

Scum projecting his guilt on me.

Since you're scum with a claimed role you absolutely don't want to bus this game. Reflective with your intent to hammer LUV yesterday which led to an immediate fold back after the claim. Even your reaction looks super staged.

-mind=blown-

lol

[Grendel]

The thing is though that I have witnessed enough games to recognizing risky D1 scum gambits.

The problem with this is that I just very simply don't think scum-shadow would think to randomly counterclaim the immediate ascetic claim, and he immediately breadcrumbed. You are right that his play is worthy of a bit more thought in light of the possibility that he's a scum ascetic but I do not think there's any chance that he's scum unless he counterclaimed because he thought it was what he'd do as a town ascetic. Which is possible. But I think the rest of his play is town-indicative still. It's worth some consideration at massclaim time.

Hmmm

Well how do you feel about the huge drop in his activity going into D2?

Do you think scum Shadow isn't capable of planning something like that out?

Outside of D1 what did you find townie about his play?

[Grendel]

@boring

Would you be willing to lynch Shadow with me?

[Shadow_step]

You can't lynch conf town, your case makes me laugh.

[Grendel]

Lots of Bravado=/=Convincing me

I can see scum motivation behind lots of your posts, and no, you are not confirmed town.

[Shadow_step]

I don't give a flying shit about convincing you of anything.
If you're town you're a moron if you're scum you are trying to lynch me because I pretty much am confirmed town.

Your stupid theory of there being an ascetic RB is pretty much BS. It doesn't matter what Zoro's read on me is. Its the correct play numerically to kill Zoro and keep blocking GE. That way there are no conf towns and my scum team can still push an angle of GE fakeclaoming cop, so implosion wouldn't be clear either.

[Shadow_step]

Now back to lynching ob scum nn30.

[podoboq]

implosion has been prodded.

[implosion]

shadow continues to be the least helpful town i've literally ever seen... and i've played with katsuki before

Idk man. I don't really have much more to say. I guess the next thing I should do is justify why I still think nn is town. I'll do that tonight or tomorrow. But in terms of who I want to kill I cannot really see myself being convinced into anything other than boring at this point.

[Shadow_step]

shadow continues to be the least helpful town i've literally ever seen... and i've played with katsuki before

Idk man. I don't really have much more to say. I guess the next thing I should do is justify why I still think nn is town. I'll do that tonight or tomorrow. But in terms of who I want to kill I cannot really see myself being convinced into anything other than boring at this point.

Bs
What do you want me to do?

[implosion]

shadow continues to be the least helpful town i've literally ever seen... and i've played with katsuki before

Idk man. I don't really have much more to say. I guess the next thing I should do is justify why I still think nn is town. I'll do that tonight or tomorrow. But in terms of who I want to kill I cannot really see myself being convinced into anything other than boring at this point.

Bs
What do you want me to do?

stop treating the game like it's your opinions in a vacuum that's all that matters?

try to convince other people of your opinions if you feel like you have such a confident basis to be claiming them?

listen to others' arguments honestly and earnestly and take them into account in your calculus of peoples' alignments?

not uselessly call yourself conftown when you aren't?

stop calling everything you disagree with bs?

not needlessly insult others' intelligence for having divergent opinions?

justify your claims when you call someone obvscum who is clearly not obvscum in the eyes of the town, who are voting disparately?

show even a shred of humility and understanding that other people might be right and you might be wrong, and therefore that it is worth the time to actually discuss things to come to a conclusion?

I guess that mostly covers it for this page... i'm just fed up with your general attitude of unhelpfulness, refusal to listen and unwillingness to cooperate or compromise. And this might be a bit ranty but -shrug-

[Prism]

Hey all,

I see a lot worth replying to but I can't really respond to them how I'd like right now. I will be free after 6 PM EST tomorrow so you can expect more there.

In the meantime, two things I should reply to sooner rather than later. First, people have asked me my impression of PP-he's a lot less town than he used to be because it seems to me that he was very intentionally overdoing the brash behavior. Meta changes and it's possible he's gotten more adept at faking his tone. The key thing to reread here is probably interactions with LUV, I'll review them along with the long-promised Grendel and Dierfire rereads tomorrow. Expect this read to change accordingly.

Second,

You can't lynch conf town, your case makes me laugh.

I don't give a flying shit about convincing you of anything.
If you're town you're a moron if you're scum you are trying to lynch me because I pretty much am confirmed town.

Your stupid theory of there being an ascetic RB is pretty much BS. It doesn't matter what Zoro's read on me is. Its the correct play numerically to kill Zoro and keep blocking GE. That way there are no conf towns and my scum team can still push an angle of GE fakeclaoming cop, so implosion wouldn't be clear either.

Now back to lynching ob scum nn30.

Sorry, can you remind me how you're confirmed town? I don't recall seeing that anywhere. By your own reasoning, there's no reason for any town to believe there's two town ascetics. Maybe we should follow you on that?

I think you're town. I think nn30 is a lot more town than you. Even if me and Implosion are wildly wrong rather than you, and I really doubt that's the case, you haven't done shit to justify your attitude right now, and whatever you're doing isn't convincing anyone.

ISOing you and scanning your votes you've declared Eager definitely scum, Gamma his confirmed scumbuddy, Implosion the next scum, and you didn't even vote LUV. I'm not seeing where this high horse is coming from at any point. I haven't done much better but jesus.

[Prism]

Implosion beat me to it damn.

[implosion]

Alright, nn's play today feeling town:

I think it's pretty much entirely encapsulated here. That post gives me two reasons to think nn is town:

-the indignance with which he describes his play as town. This is more of a gut thing, it isn't going to be rigorously justifiable. It does go beyond simply indignance; it feels to me like nn is genuinely trying to work with people to solve the game. His insistence that the people pushing him give cases, his rhetoric towards Zoronos, and so on.

-his throwing townreads out left and right. If he's scum then the way that he went into today is painting himself into a corner, immediately striking out both pp and boring as likely directions for him to push in going forward. Granted, he did flip on boring now, but in a reasonable way in response to new information which him as scum wouldn't have known would be guaranteed to happen. To generalize he is playing this day very off-the-cuff, throwing reads out and laying his opinions bare for everyone to investigate. Saying he doesn't want to vote Grendel because he's just a counterwagon, then giving real reasons to vote him 7 minutes later. And then saying he got more town pings from Grendel 40 minutes after that. He's responsive. He doesn't have a plan. His play just doesn't feel like scum who's trying to get a person in particular lynched, or avoid lynching anyone else in particular, or try to avoid being lynched himself; his play is just too much a combination of putting himself out there and not having a plan behind it to be scum, I think.