Mini Normal #1838 - Game Over

nn30
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Post Post #2725  (ISO)  » Wed Nov 09, 2016 1:42 am

In post 2719, Grendel wrote:Hey conf!town nn30, tell me what you think of Prism.


You're hilarious lol.

I have thought that Prism is town since you pointed out that he was drawing attention to himself in order to have people read him.

Haven't really dropped the town read since.

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Post Post #2726  (ISO)  » Wed Nov 09, 2016 1:46 am

Official Vote Count 3.20
LynchingWith 9 votes in play, it takes 5 to lynch.

Grendel (3): Zoronos, Dierfire, Prism
Dierfire (3): Grendel, Shadow_step, nn30
boring (2): implosion, PenguinPower
Shadow_step (1): boring

Not Voting (0):


Deadline: (expired on 2016-11-14 13:30:00)
Last edited by podoboq on Wed Nov 09, 2016 2:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
eagerSnake - "Fwiw mod steals pagetops while driving. Still think they wouldn't put in 2 people with ascetic?"

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Post Post #2727  (ISO)  » Wed Nov 09, 2016 10:05 am

In post 2724, Shadow_step wrote:I'm waiting for that case on me.

It's been made.

Spoiler:
In post 2571, boring wrote:With Shadow, it's more complicated. He's said a couple things here and there that have pinged me. For example, rereading the fake-claim situation over N2. These posts weren't far apart, but I find that there's a lot wrong with them.
In post 2085, Shadow_step wrote:I want to lock LUV into a claim, I think he is also scum.
If his intent to hammer was designed to lock LUV into a claim, why would he immediately believe it?
In post 2092, Shadow_step wrote:Brilliant, all the lynch baits got all the good PRs :/
If our most easily mislynched players were in a position to be conf. town, that's an enormous stroke of good luck. This comment reads to me like one of frustration, which makes me question whether it's a scum slip.

His big picture too, has struck me as possibly anti-town. Meaning, he's not made an ounce of positive contribution, in the long run.

Then there's Grendel's argument, which made a lot of sense. I get the impression that not everyone took the time to read it. So here it is again:
[edited out and added in the next spoiler because of weird formatting issues]

My primary reservations on the Shadow case are, first, if he's scum, he's played one hell of a risky game. Second, I'm prone to serious paranoia sometimes, so I have to question whether I've read too much into these details.

Yes, Shadow, I think it possible for the scum team to be LUV-Penguin-Shadow.

In post 2644, boring wrote:
In post 2639, Shadow_step wrote:I'd prefer boring right now.
She tries to throw shade on PP without committing to a stance. Asks for town consensus about PP claim.

I saw his claim and unvoted because that what you're supposed to do when people claim. Am I supposed to welcome into the town fold with open arms after the fake doc claim yesterday? He's been scummy all game, just like LUV.

Anyway, it looks like you're throwing shade at me without committing to a stance because you know you're next in my scum-line, and you might as well get ready for an OMGUS. You follow it up by throwing shade at the guy who comes right after you in my read list. Not very subtle.

PP, you didn't actually expect anyone to pick up on that "breadcrumb", did you? By the way, did you spend the whole game with the knowledge that you were Deputy, or were you informed when Gamma was killed?

In post 2648, boring wrote:
In post 2579, Shadow_step wrote:@boring #2571

How does believing a claim make me scum? what is your argument here? I don't get it at all.

I'll try to explain in more detail.

It's not the fact that you believed his claim that is fishy to me. It's that you stated intent to hammer because, and I quote,
In post 2085, Shadow_step wrote:I want to lock LUV into a claim, I think he is also scum.


If that was your thinking, your purpose, then why would you take it entirely at face value? It makes the whole thing seem staged, like "okay little buddy, time for you to claim now"...

The next quote I mentioned, aside from indicating your belief, added what looked like a slip.
In post 2092, Shadow_step wrote:Brilliant, all the lynch baits got all the good PRs :/


Because again, why is this a thing worthy of " :/ "? If all the "lynch baits" can be established as conf. town, that's good news. That is, unless your "scum hunt" is just a hunt for easy mislynches.

p-edit: I'll look through your interactions with Gamma around the claim, and see if it looks congruent with the deputy claim. Were you offered a read last night, since Gamma died, or is it supposed to start tonight?

In post 2689, boring wrote:
In post 2687, nn30 wrote:
In post 2680, Shadow_step wrote:I don't get why a scum! Grendel would kill Maria n1. LUV was just a goon, killing off someone who TRs you is sub optimal play.


This is another good wrinkle to consider. I'd like to hear more people's thoughts on it, especially Zoronos.

I don't see why it would be sub-optimal. It points away from you, clears the person town-reading you, and then you just have to wait for someone to dig it up on your behalf (can be town or a buddy). It's a lot smarter than leaving a big, messy bloodtrail.

I'm not convinced that this is something Grendel would do or has done. It's just that if S_s could conclude at first that MariaR's NK could be used to frame me, I don't understand why he can't see this.


Spoiler:
In post 2378, Grendel wrote:The connection of the second Ascetic being a role blocker:

1) I hate to admit it, but Zoronos is right about scum being way to confidant to go after Gamma without a means to negate his power.

2) If there were two roles capable of negating night actions, the mod would have to decide which gets priority; giving the scum rb an aesthetic modifier solves this issue.

3) With Shadow being an ascetic it makes more sense for him to be a role blocker because his modifier with allow him to bypass Zoronos's blocking ablities.

4) All things considered from a set up perspective, town and mafia having one ascetic makes more sense than town getting two ascetics, while scum also gets something to counter town protectives. Unless we have another 3+ town power, (lol), then this isn't an incredibility anti-town set up.

I won’t remove a strong man from the table, but given that Shadow is arguing that instead of a role blocker is giving me bad vibes. Especially now that I have had this realization regarding Shadow.

I guess I should address the elephant in the room first. The reason why everybody has a mutual town read on Shadow: his counter claim. Heck, even I thought it was a pretty town motivated thing to do, cc another unlikely role in the only makes sense. The thing is though that I have witnessed enough games to recognizing risky D1 scum gambits. They go hard and long D1, until everybody is convinced that there is no way the slot could be scum. Then once cleared by the other players they lurk until the late game. Compare this to shadow’s activity this game. 166 posts D1. 35 posts D2. 15 posts so far today. He becomes significantly less aggressive with his pushes going into the second day, and many of his opinions are not memorable. As in looking over his iso, I’m seeing things I never really noticed before.

Some things I noticed going through his isolated posts:
[spoiler=]
In post 9, Shadow_step wrote:VOTE: LUV

This is a scum PR we need to get riD of ASAP.

In post 166, Shadow_step wrote:Looks like LUV has been advised to play dumb and play newb like.
Needs death.

-Shadow had started out D1 with a vote on LUV, and then proceeds to distance him until he comes to the conclusion that LUV null. Looks like scum pretending to sort scum.
In post 400, Shadow_step wrote:
In post 398, MariaR wrote:N30 has been obv town since the start of this.

The fact gamma isn't obv town when I've obv town read him before is worrying

the LUV townreads make me laugh.

I'm gonna look more into a few players that don't need names but with the amount of people I am slowly going like "you can be town" these players are....


If penguin is scum, LUV is town.
I do agree on that town reading LUV is kinda dumb.

- Its common for scum to link their buddies to other players in mutally exclusive relationships. Though I find the order a bit weird.

-With the usage of the scum pt it is not unreasonable that Shadow could have plotted out his counter claim in advance. I believe he is of the ability to organize this as scum. Town reading him for it would be folly.
In post 753, Shadow_step wrote:I'm not lynching anyone but eager today.
If there are two ascetics. This game is bastard.

So I'd rather believe eager is scum than this game is bastard.

- Shadow step calling the game bastard seems like a redirect to get town to blame to mod’s set up choices instead of Shadow once Eager flips scum. It also gives him an excuse to spend the whole day tunneling Eager, and be justified by the outcome regardless what Eager flips. He do say this as town, but it'd be an awfully convenit stance to take as scum sense he can look like aggressive town while not actually being aggressive towards other players. So he gets no back lash for statements like this.

In post 1344, Shadow_step wrote:Hmm I got my facts wrong. Eggman and eager were both useless I thought eager got lynched for the cult win.


- Scum slip. A low expections of Eager. As scum Shadow would view him as an easy mislynch. Suggests that Shadow would have been more confidence pushing a cc on Eager then somebody else.
In post 1579, Shadow_step wrote:
If he thinks I'm scum, I would obviously not consider Eager to be town. Why the hell would I? He then says that Eager could be lying town. Implying he knows eager I town. Lying as town is very risky. Not just in that game. But you can get blacklisted.
LUV treats me as if I am town here.

To be noted


- Shadeow’s read of LUV bounces throughout D1, but ultimately it appears that LUV is a null read for him given how Shadow keeps a suspicion on him without acting on it. It isn’t until this point that he seems legitimately interested in lynching LUV… until he moves over to Gamma.
In post 2092, Shadow_step wrote:Brilliant, all the lynch baits got all the good PRs :/

VOTE: Nn

- 2092 Immediately buys that LUV is doctor. I think this could be a last second reprieve to see if LUV can live another day or two.
In post 2099, Shadow_step wrote:Someone needs to unvote before luv self hammers.

In post 2102, Shadow_step wrote:He will hammer cause he is scum.
Probably going bonkers in his at.

- 2099 & 2102 This reads like damage control. Trying to back away from LUV as fast as he can.

- Shadow spends a lot of time on set up speculation D2…
In post 2209, Shadow_step wrote:
In post 2201, podoboq wrote:
Lil Uzi Vert, Mafia Goon, was lynched Day 2.

It is now Night 2. Please PM all night actions to me by the deadline, or bold them in your associated private thread.

Deadline: (expired on 2016-10-29 08:44:00)


Only if bastars mod hadn't put 2 town ascetics, had this scum fuck day 1.


- Takes credit for the lynch of somebody he only kept as a scum lean and only pushed whenever Shadow thought LUV said something particularly bad. Usually something directed at Shadow too. Also Shadow is once again painting the mod as the scape goat. Maybe it's just me, but shadow has been evading the responsibility for his actions this game, starting with his fake 1-L vote on Pengiun back in Day 1.

Seeing how the most town thing I had to say about Shadow going into today was his behavior D1 tells me that he has been keeping a low profile since Eager flipped. Also nobody pointing out some of these things means that everybody has written off Shadow as town. Which imo is a big mistake that I too was a part of yesterday. The entire purpose of a powerful D1 scum gambit is to rack up enough town cred to slide into the endgame. This is exactly what Shadow is doing.

You know, I had originally thought that Shadow step was an investigative role given his jump on Gamma at the start of D2 along the lines of “Oh yeah, this is scum btw”. I thought that he was softing a guilty, the same way he did at the start of D1 where he remarked how easy the game will be after Eager’s claim. There was also how much attention Shadow gives Maria D1, and her general feelings were that Gamma wasn’t Ob!town like she was expecting him to be. More reasoning I had down in my notes is that two regular townies modified with straight aesthetics modifiers and nothing else, would be really anti town. So I thought that Shadow should be a cop or some such.


Tl;dr - The huge benefit of the doubt you earned with the ballsy D1 move and bold demeanor has been sanded away by shady posts, a questionable activity pattern, and the fact that you've had zero pro-town influence.

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Post Post #2728  (ISO)  » Wed Nov 09, 2016 11:29 am

@Boring - I'll add something to that as well.

I can't find the article on the wiki, but basically there was a theory article that suggested that scum like to find a tunnel and stick with it for the day.

It's safe to say that Shadow has been tunneling me 1) all day and 2) with dubious reasonings. I feel like I could have 1) done anything or 2) not done that very same thing and Shadow would scum read it either way. The dubious reasons for tunneling me suggest that his mind is immune to being changed, regardless of logic. His goal is to distract and put on a show, which he's done.

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Post Post #2729  (ISO)  » Wed Nov 09, 2016 11:31 am

I've responded to the first part which you never replied to.

If I'm an ascetic RB, this setup is ridiculously scum sided, so that whole argument is balls.

Next
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Post Post #2730  (ISO)  » Wed Nov 09, 2016 11:42 am

In post 2728, nn30 wrote:@Boring - I'll add something to that as well.

I can't find the article on the wiki, but basically there was a theory article that suggested that scum like to find a tunnel and stick with it for the day.

It's safe to say that Shadow has been tunneling me 1) all day and 2) with dubious reasonings. I feel like I could have 1) done anything or 2) not done that very same thing and Shadow would scum read it either way. The dubious reasons for tunneling me suggest that his mind is immune to being changed, regardless of logic. His goal is to distract and put on a show, which he's done.


Tunneling you for dubious reasoning? Seriously! :igmeou:
VCA is dubious ?
POE is dubious?
You voting me day 1 which is dripping with scum motivation is dubious?

I swear if you misrep and lie one more time I will fucking tunnel you to the ground.
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Post Post #2731  (ISO)  » Wed Nov 09, 2016 11:47 am

In post 2729, Shadow_step wrote:I've responded to the first part which you never replied to.

If I'm an ascetic RB, this setup is ridiculously scum sided, so that whole argument is balls.

Next

What are you even talking about? The first part includes responses.
Why do you really think If I'm an ascetic RB, this setup is ridiculously scum sided is relevant to anything I've said? I don't think you're necessarily ascetic or RB. I just think you're scum.

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Post Post #2732  (ISO)  » Wed Nov 09, 2016 11:54 am

In post 2730, Shadow_step wrote:
In post 2728, nn30 wrote:@Boring - I'll add something to that as well.

I can't find the article on the wiki, but basically there was a theory article that suggested that scum like to find a tunnel and stick with it for the day.

It's safe to say that Shadow has been tunneling me 1) all day and 2) with dubious reasonings. I feel like I could have 1) done anything or 2) not done that very same thing and Shadow would scum read it either way. The dubious reasons for tunneling me suggest that his mind is immune to being changed, regardless of logic. His goal is to distract and put on a show, which he's done.


Tunneling you for dubious reasoning? Seriously! :igmeou:
VCA is dubious ?
POE is dubious?
You voting me day 1 which is dripping with scum motivation is dubious?

I swear if you misrep and lie one more time I will fucking tunnel you to the ground.

No you won't. You've not even bothered to tunnel the person you're voting right now. You're just trying to threaten and dismiss those who are on to you, in the hopes that they'll shy away.

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Post Post #2733  (ISO)  » Wed Nov 09, 2016 12:01 pm

What the hell are you on about in I have no idea.

one which was conveniently ignored
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Post Post #2734  (ISO)  » Wed Nov 09, 2016 12:08 pm

In post 2731, boring wrote:
In post 2729, Shadow_step wrote:I've responded to the first part which you never replied to.

If I'm an ascetic RB, this setup is ridiculously scum sided, so that whole argument is balls.

Next

What are you even talking about? The first part includes responses.
Why do you really think If I'm an ascetic RB, this setup is ridiculously scum sided is relevant to anything I've said? I don't think you're necessarily ascetic or RB. I just think you're scum.


I can't even be ascetic mafia goon, too scumsided.
So let me get this straight. You're case against me is that I CCed Eager a useless role at night(according to threat to mafia) by a role I didn't have ?
So apparently I can get fucked any night if someone bothers to check me.
Yeah okay. Brilliant case. You want a scummy?
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Post Post #2735  (ISO)  » Wed Nov 09, 2016 12:39 pm

In post 2730, Shadow_step wrote:
In post 2728, nn30 wrote:@Boring - I'll add something to that as well.

I can't find the article on the wiki, but basically there was a theory article that suggested that scum like to find a tunnel and stick with it for the day.

It's safe to say that Shadow has been tunneling me 1) all day and 2) with dubious reasonings. I feel like I could have 1) done anything or 2) not done that very same thing and Shadow would scum read it either way. The dubious reasons for tunneling me suggest that his mind is immune to being changed, regardless of logic. His goal is to distract and put on a show, which he's done.


Tunneling you for dubious reasoning? Seriously! :igmeou:
VCA is dubious ?
POE is dubious?
You voting me day 1 which is dripping with scum motivation is dubious?

I swear if you misrep and lie one more time I will fucking tunnel you to the ground.


Yes, your reasonings have been dubious. The fact that you can't see that isn't helping you rn.

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Post Post #2736  (ISO)  » Wed Nov 09, 2016 12:41 pm

Every post you've made all game has been dripping with confidence, too. Townies are supposed to be unsure of themselves. You display no trepidation about anything you do or say.

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Post Post #2737  (ISO)  » Wed Nov 09, 2016 12:47 pm

In post 2736, nn30 wrote:Every post you've made all game has been dripping with confidence, too. Townies are supposed to be unsure of themselves. You display no trepidation about anything you do or say.


That's no way to play as town.
We'll discuss this post game.
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Post Post #2738  (ISO)  » Wed Nov 09, 2016 12:49 pm

In post 2737, Shadow_step wrote:
In post 2736, nn30 wrote:Every post you've made all game has been dripping with confidence, too. Townies are supposed to be unsure of themselves. You display no trepidation about anything you do or say.


That's no way to play as town.
We'll discuss this post game.


There it is again - it's your way or the highway.

The confidence betrays hidden knowledge. That's why it feels scummy. It's possible to play town in that manner, but more likely to come from scum.

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Post Post #2739  (ISO)  » Wed Nov 09, 2016 12:52 pm

I'll make a probabilistic argument.

100% sure town - how you've been playing

75% sure town - confident, but willing to be wrong if persuaded.

50% sure town - basically coinflips the whole game. On the long term this kind of player will have a 50/50 win rate as well - since they are neither helping nor harming their team in an otherwise balanced setup (this is assuming mafia set ups are balanced by the way.)

I'm arguing against the 100% confident townie in favor of the 75% confident townie.

I believe you're misinterpreting me to think that a 50% confident townie is what I'm arguing. It's not.

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Post Post #2740  (ISO)  » Wed Nov 09, 2016 12:53 pm

SMH
My playstyle might be scummy, doesn't mean I'm scum. I play the same way everuwhere. What the point of this discussion.
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Post Post #2741  (ISO)  » Wed Nov 09, 2016 12:55 pm

Sorry for the spammy posts.

For the sake of clarity I'm still on Dierfire right now.

Before someone asks why I'm talking about Shadow being scummy while voting Dierfire, it's because Dierfire has yet to come back and respond to the case against him. Multitasking scum hunting is a thing that can happen.

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Post Post #2742  (ISO)  » Wed Nov 09, 2016 12:58 pm

I guess the arrogance comes from a lot of factors. The way I am, how I tend to peg scum like 80% of the times pretty early. I'm not gloating. You can check my town games. There are other things which I'll say post game.
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Post Post #2743  (ISO)  » Wed Nov 09, 2016 1:04 pm

I skimmed newbie 1746.

There's a lot of arrogance in that game too.

Just from skimming, I didn't feel that you were being anti-helpful to town that game though. This game still feels different.

We can talk further in end game if you wish.

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Post Post #2744  (ISO)  » Wed Nov 09, 2016 1:40 pm

Let me put this on a plate for you.
I think you are scum, you think you are town cause obviously. So in your mind you think, why I'm voting you is dubious or you're pretending it is. When it is not. Two other people voted you. You are making it seem like its impossible for you to be scum and I'm pushing a crazy nn=scum narrative.

Unhelpful town, I think that's a case of incorrect perception and convenient misrep.
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Post Post #2745  (ISO)  » Wed Nov 09, 2016 1:48 pm

I get that.

It's up to town to decide what they think of me.

Yes, two people voted me, but that's the extent of my being scum read this game.

Those people have since removed their votes - obviously, they've changed their minds. Well, for now at least.

Since then I've been given strong town reads by multiple people. In fact, Implosion (who is actually confirmed town) picked apart the last time you scum read me by calling your logic bad. I'm not the only one who thinks your logic is dubious at times.

What weighs more? The two people who temporarily voted me? Or everyone who is now town reading me?

Contrarily, I've bounced you back and forth between town and scum. You've done things which indicate both alignments and I've voiced both versions on the thread at some point. You aren't giving any credence to a possible Nn30 town - which is my frustration with you.

You said yourself - you peg scum 80% of the time early on. You were wrong about Eager - what's stopping you from being wrong about me, too?

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Post Post #2746  (ISO)  » Wed Nov 09, 2016 1:49 pm

Hi we're murdering Dierfire or Grendel.
Preferably Grendel.

Shadow_step is aggravating, annoying, and generally useless as shit, but he's not on the plate today. We all know your point on him, save it for tomorrow or later.
Getting into this shit with him is helping nobody. Yes, he's belligerent and unhelpful. The rest of us know those are scum tells. He's still likely town for the movement, so let us collectively move on.

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Post Post #2747  (ISO)  » Wed Nov 09, 2016 1:54 pm

Implosion is conf town. It doesn't mean his reads are right.

And tbh I rarely use other's reasoning as to why someone is town or scum unless I find it convincing or it fits with my reads to an extent.

I don't understand why you care what my current read on you is when I'm not even voting you.
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Post Post #2748  (ISO)  » Wed Nov 09, 2016 1:56 pm

In post 2746, Zoronos wrote:Hi we're murdering Dierfire or Grendel.
Preferably Grendel.

Shadow_step is aggravating, annoying, and generally useless as shit, but he's not on the plate today. We all know your point on him, save it for tomorrow or later.
Getting into this shit with him is helping nobody. Yes, he's belligerent and unhelpful. The rest of us know those are scum tells. He's still likely town for the movement, so let us collectively move on.


Don't want to start a dick measuring contest, but I'm better than you at Mafia. And nowhere near useless as shit. Get your head out of your ass.
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Post Post #2749  (ISO)  » Wed Nov 09, 2016 1:59 pm

And you've actually done nothing useful apart from CCing LUV caused by him claiming caused by me declarimg imtent to hammer. Which funnily enough you didn't want me to do.
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