Mini Normal 1850 | The Penguin Mafia | Endgame

[MTD]

well hi.
VOTE: kraska

[MTD]

who wants to talk to me about how gamma's last post was the scummiest in the thread so far?

Wanna talk about how you're wrong.

I'd like to hear this

[MTD]

aw c'mon, you can't just throw a "no your post is scummy" at me without explaining anything.
As I understood it, myko was mostly trying to convey that there are a lot of newer players in the game. So no, gamma's post is in no way the same type of post.
Also technically you wanted to tell myko how he is wrong, so you must have had another post you found scummier?

[MTD]

aw c'mon, you can't just throw a "no your post is scummy" at me without explaining anything.
As I understood it, myko was mostly trying to convey that there are a lot of newer players in the game. So no, gamma's post is in no way the same type of post.
Also technically you wanted to tell myko how he is wrong, so you must have had another post you found scummier?

*tilts head* is it that hard to understand?

*tilts head* yes i am an idiot, so kindly tell me what i am missing?

[MTD]

I did tell you why i do not think it was the same type of post, let alone "the same exact post".

[MTD]

First off: I do not think knowing who already knows who, and more specifically, who has already played with who, is entirely useless info.
That said, the way gamma jumped on that wagon was ridiculous.

VOTE: gamma

[MTD]

I have no idea what NAI means.

[MTD]

Ok my biggest problem with that post is that he

implies

gamma to be town.
And then says everyone is null.
...
VOTE: ssbm

[MTD]

He did not say it was, was it? He said it was bad form.

[MTD]

ah no nvm that, was thinking of the wrong thing

[MTD]

Sigh, disregard #81, #80 was right. I am too tired for this right now.

[MTD]

bad form can mean bad town play which is not the same as scummy play.

[MTD]

because your question had the baseline that he said it was scummy which is bullshit.

[MTD]

I will think on it and come back to it tomorrow, that may have been a mistake on my part, yes.
I need sleep.

[MTD]

Sigh.

First: I do think ssbm is scum. My reasons do seem to differ from yours, which is probably why i didnt really remember to let you follow up your case.
Basically my reaction was "This is bullshit, he never said that, this isnt gonna lead anywhere", but i do see that it would have still lead to some reactions at least.
So yes, that was indeed a mistake from me.

What's also bullshit though is to call that whiteknighting. I was not defending him, i was trying to get you to ask better questions.

Now back to ssbm.
What you initially did was saying there needed to be wagons, which is good and all, but then followed it up with "everyone is null", essentially doing the opposite of getting wagons going.
Having wagons without cases or at least scumreads, leads nowhere, and that seems to be what you are pushing for.

As I explained above, players need to join wagons to get discussion going. The discussion we are having now is helpful to the town. Players can see how we interact with one another, and see how other players choose to interpret the words they read. I believe scumslips are when scum interpret things differently than town do, and these discussions lead to town being able to form reads on other players based on how they think.

Yes, the discussion we are having is helpful. No, that has nothing to do with simply joining wagons, these came about because someone actually had a scumread on you which they pushed.

What you did was saying "discussion is good" and then doing nothing that might help actually getting discussion going except when you had no other choice.

I still do think your 69 was you implying that gamma is town and then trying to backpedal, but yea, i guess you can find different explanations there.
No idea where you got the idea from that i thought i had misunderstood your post.

[MTD]

"Having wagons without cases or at least scumreads, leads nowhere, and that seems to be what you are pushing for."
I think I've already said that such wagons lead to discussions. This is my objective in RVS. I said everyone is null because we were just barely getting out of RVS. The reason I say we were just barely getting out is because these were the first 2 wagons to form and they formed almost simultaneously out of people who interpreted Gamma's and Mykonian's posts differently.

Yes, you already said such wagons alone lead to discussions. Yes, that is also still nonsense.
A wagon without any backing of a scumread or case exerts no pressure at all, since town does not want to lynch randomly.

"What you did was saying "discussion is good" and then doing nothing that might help actually getting discussion going except when you had no other choice."
I firmly disagree with this. I never backed down from getting a discussion going.

That was not the question.
I did not say you backed down from discussion (this falls under "you had no other choice" imo), i said you did nothing to get it going.

"No idea where you got the idea from that i thought i had misunderstood your post."
Your 76 says I implied Gamma was town in my 69. See my 89.

That was not the question. I said how i understood the post, and i still stand with that.
You claim i had changed my mind, where do you get that from?

[MTD]

oops formatting, oh well.

@EP:
If you say it exists but is not a scumtell, then what do you explain the inconsistency with?

[MTD]

If the game goes towards scum reading me that's fine.

I agree with most of EP's post. I'd like to point out that I have more posts than you and I'm not a lurker, there's a difference between not posting at all and not posting your reads.

I'd argue that posting only meaningless things is much worse than not posting at all on average.

[MTD]

This is a beginner game

This is news to me.

[MTD]

I was serious.

[MTD]

Anyways, no reply if you're serious lol idk what to say to that

You could start by explaining what makes this a beginner game.
There were 3, now there are 2 accounts that did not have 2 or more finished games on site before this.
So even if you disregard possible alts and off-site experience, i dont really know where you get that from.

[MTD]

The fact it's in the subforum people are recommended to have their first games in ?_?

Where do you take that from?
The place where people are recommended to have their first game(s) is the newbie queue.
Afaik there are no explicit recommendations as to what to do after that?

[MTD]

Since you also /inned in the newbie queue, i presume that was what your friend linked you, but yea, this is a game from the normal queue, so it doesnt per se have anything to do with being new.

[MTD]

this is getting... silly.

[MTD]

pedit=preview edit, i.e. there was a new post when he tried to submit his post and that was his edit after seeing it.

[MTD]

giga, i would like to know why you seek personal interactions with those you already have reads on but not with gamma, me and gerry.

[MTD]

Also i am afraid i will have to find someone whose read on transcend i can copy.
His playstyle so far annoys me greatly and i dont think i can be objective enough with that.

I mostly agree with myko on josh, although i think most of his current way of playing does come from other places' meta.

[MTD]

VOTE: Transcend
Scum claim part 2
got 2 mafia in gerry transcend this game is easy

Why is gerry scum in your eyes?
Why do you still want to vote transcend over gerry right now?

[MTD]

And sorry giga, i'm afraid you are not one who i want to put trust in at this point.

Also myko plays sensibly so far, which tells me nothing.

[MTD]

@Transcend: I didn't vote until I had actually put the thought into the events that transpired, determining it as a scumslip

Do you still think it was one?
If yes, why did you stop following up on that so quickly?
If no, what changed your mind?

[MTD]

dammit, gamma, apologize to penguin right now.

i'm do not like 299, but i guess gamma should answer that still.

[MTD]

There are 3 votes on gamma. chill.

[MTD]

@MTD, not really sure why you would ask people in general for their transcend read if you're just not going to listen but ok... also i can't tell if you're scumreading me or nullreading me and not the type who listens to nullread's reads?

Oh, i am loving the input.
Also I did say i had to find someone, not that i would sheep the first one that presented themselves.
I am reading you pretty null, slight lean scum, that still comes from rem's (1.5) posts, though.

[MTD]

why were rem's posts scummy?

They were just very low effort.
Looking back, this might be kind of unfair actually, since illness and all that, i didnt really realize that as much back then :S.
So yea, after going over it again, pretty null.

[MTD]

why were rem's posts scummy?

They were just very low effort.
Looking back, this might be kind of unfair actually, since illness and all that, i didnt really realize that as much back then :S.
So yea, after going over it again, pretty null.

have u tried reading giga yet?

i think it's kinda shitty you're basing your read on a slot that wasn't dominant in the slot at all.

but i still think you're town

How would i read someones posts without trying to develop a read on them?

and you think it's shitty to use the only things you have from the slot that dont seem entirely null to you to base your read on? Why would it matter for that which player played the slot more?

[MTD]

Rly busy atm sorry guys, will read tomorrow
I can maybe answer some things if yall ask tho

This votecount im seeing is 10/10

I think you are the person i most want a transcend read from, when you have time.

[MTD]

Yay, i got back into my account!

And your complete lack of reactive devaluation doesn't make any sense when you scum read gamma, even though now you're backtracking and telling Maria that gamma isn't scum?

I've gone with gamma town from the moment I voted RK, and even yesterday I've given you a good reason why he is likely town given the mindset he showed earlier (and how his later actions do not make sense had he been scum).

You could actually read what I post.

I read it. Doesn't change my opinion of you. Just makes the initial SvS more likely than TvS.

VOTE: josh

misrepping myko and the going on as if nothing happened when he calls you out... just no. I'm willing to let a lot slide that can be explained with you coming from a different meta, but this is not such a thing.

[MTD]

Potato potato. I didn't misrep anyrhing, do you know what reactive devaluation is? And why is gamma allowed to get away with a master plan of seeing if I contribute? Of course I'll go on, what do you want me to do, stop playing and start getting into a pointless back and fourth with mykonian? Maria says my read post is bad for the reason it's bad and nobody comments on it? So many questions, the only real answer is I'm almost positive there's 1-2 scum in mykonian gamma and gerry, and you morons lynching me is a stupid mislynch that should not happen and you'll regret later but at least it'll teach me my place here or is that an ate that makes me obvious scum omg lynch me I scum slipped!!!

All I can say is you guys have weird methodologies, no clue why transcend is so sure I'm town but props

Oh I do know what reactive devaluation is. That has nothing to do with what i am talking about though.

In your post you claim myko still had a scumread on gamma.
Myko points out that was not the case and asks you to actually read his posts.
You claim you did read them.

This leaves three options:
a) You read the posts and understood them, but decided to lie.
b) You read them and didnt understand them.
c) You lied about reading them.

None of those leaves you in particularly good light.

[MTD]

I'm sorry that i didnt make it clear enough what timeframe

I

was talking about.
You claim he was backtracking when he told mariaR that gamma was not scum, implying that he scumread gamma prior to that.
Myko pointed out that was not the case.

This does not matter wrt the problem though.

[MTD]

Pedit: it was sarcastic, because he said transcend backtracked for taking a vote off due to an ate even though his vote wasn't met with negative approval from others, kind of like he (or someone else) said I was "fencesitting" earlier

please explain what that has to do with what i am talking about?

[MTD]

Ooooh ok.

Now let's just disregard for now that, if what you claim now is actually true, the ambiguity of your posting alone makes for terrible play.

Let's just assume that you did not really think myko was backtracking, and just said those things in reply to myko's oh so false claim transcend was doing that.
If that's the case i will need some more explanations though.

Pedit: it was sarcastic, because he said transcend backtracked for taking a vote off due to an ate even though his vote wasn't met with negative approval from others

a) yes there was negative approval from myko.
b) Is your argument for it not being backtracking really that there was an ate? that's all?

kind of like he (or someone else) said I was "fencesitting" earlier

I'm probably just too dumb again, but what the hell does this have to do with the backtracking thing?

[MTD]

Josh is indeed trying to reduce things to semantic arguments.
Also Josh is scum.

[MTD]

I'd be happy if you could try to bundle some of your thoughts into single posts i think.

[MTD]

I'd be happy if you could try to bundle some of your thoughts into single posts i think.

Sure thing, friend. But, in the meantime, could you please answer?

MTD can you explain the scumread on him besides the argument things? I really don't see how causing arguments is scummy in itself as it can show partner or non partner reads.

I presumed you hadnt read up yet because with the posts i made so far your question does not really make sense at all.
I never based my read on him starting arguments, the one post now where i even mentioned those was in reply to people defending him.
I also never said he started arguments, i said that he tried to devolve the arguments i started into meaningless semantics.
So idk, maybe just read my posts next time?

[MTD]

First of all, no, it does not imply he is scum for that. ("Also")

If it did however, it would be for doing what i said he did, being reducing the case to semantics.
Not however for what you claimed i said, being that he started arguments.

Sorry, I don't particularly like being misrepped?

[MTD]

Ok, i'll trust rk on transcend town.
I believe myko is town.

i want to lynch ssbm or josh at the moment, but i have only skimmed nadroj so far, i'll get back to that later today

[MTD]

But like

I can't get over how bad every single vote myk made is.

I on the other hand can't get over how bad the votes

on

myko were.
very much looks like a scum driven wagon.

[MTD]

Ok, i'll trust rk on transcend town.
I believe myko is town.

i want to lynch ssbm or josh at the moment, but i have only skimmed nadroj so far, i'll get back to that later today

Why are you trusting me on transcend town but disagreeing w literally every other one of my reads????

But like

I can't get over how bad every single vote myk made is.

I on the other hand can't get over how bad the votes

on

myko were.
very much looks like a scum driven wagon.

Again why are you trusting me when my myko vote is so bad

I dont think you are an idiot.
I disagree with almost all of your reads, yes, but that is likely to not always be the case throughout the game. I see no reason why your other reads should be reasons to distrust this one unless another one of your reads is directly conditional to your transcend read.
I didnt have the impression that was the case, but if it is, please tell me.

[MTD]

you can find which roles are likely to appear here: http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Normal_Game

[MTD]

Jailkeeper is a very different thing than the Jailor that was described.

[MTD]

I'm not as confident on it, but i can see it?

[MTD]

Ok I read throug jordan (not that there is much) and am very comfortable with lynching that at the moment.
After all this time he has still not given any actual reasoning on any of his reads, which hardly seems reasonable if you want to advance the game.
Then he says he doesnt post much because he doesnt want to fluff :T

I am still think the chances of josh scum are decent, but since his recent stuff was fine and it didnt look like that lynch was going to happen anyway,
VOTE: jordan

[MTD]

I pretty much agree with myko on maria i think?

The recent posts about jordan are very awkward, yes, but before that nothing really jumped at me as scummy.

[MTD]

Yea if we're lynching anyone who's not contributing much I'd much rather lynch Ssbm. The very fact jordan is being brought up and Ssbm isn't should attest to that. I keep saying this but jordan is exactly who scum would push, and I really do not want to lynch him today, so much so that i'd prefer almost any other wagon.

Ssbm is contributing.
Like, jordan is nowhere even close to that level of contribution.

I still dont think ssbm is particularly towny but your line of argumentation here certainly doesnt make me think he's scum either.

[MTD]

I did only mean that one post, dunno why i wrote posts there.

But answering to the question why you are ignoring jordan with what should be reasons to try to investigate him is... well, awkward.

[MTD]

VOTE: gamma

wat?

[MTD]

The jordan wagon is awful zzz

Explain your gamma vote.

[MTD]

I mean that as literally the same question kraska asked gerry.

[MTD]

yo mtd get back on kyouko pls

Indeed.
I am happy about ssbm's last posts making this decision way easier.

VOTE: ssbm

[MTD]

Urgh.

I want the jordan lynch, i am ok with the ssbm lynch.

I did ftr really like josh's last few pages.

Gamma lynch is kinda meh.

[MTD]

{Rk, MTD, jordan}

everyone else is basically conftown

wat.

the only people i feel confident are town are transcend and josh.

Well road Kamelot didn't talk to MariaR all day and pushed shitty Myko and gamma lynches.

RK not interacting with maria at all is indeed weird.
Incidentally you were also quite intent on lynching myko for a long time, though?

[MTD]

Actually scrap that, i do not feel that confident about josh town.
I misremembered his interactions with maria.

[MTD]

Whoever is saying i didnt interact w maria isnt thinking critically or is scum
i didnt interact with anyone after a certain point

are you for real?

Maria is the only person in this game you never even mentioned D1.
The only one.

[MTD]

Kraska should be obvtown, I agree. She pushed early, and thoroughly, when a bus was not required or obvious.

This is true, hadn't thought about that.

@rk: you didnt ever actually explain why you scumread me either, did you?

[MTD]

VOTE: Road Kamelot

(I still feel kinda conflicted about this since i did townread her D1 >.< to be fair that was mostly gut)

Pedit(s): Yeeea dont do that. jordan is still the one other person i do want to lynch.

[MTD]

4am rambling here I am.

ohai

[MTD]

yeah idk, EP comes in with a reads list and the 3 he pretty much sets up for a lynch are three I won't even consider now given my reread. MTD I like on meta, kraska and giga are town from their interactions with Maria. Where those reads of EP come from, it's anybodys guess :/ Need more explanations EP.

I dont see giga as necessarily town from those?

EP's scum read on me feels kinda arbitrary, so does your townread though.
@EP: you said you'd ISO me 3 days ago, get to it.

[MTD]

Human liver tastes gross.

[MTD]

Hey, you started it!

But sure.

He doesnt enjoy mafia much i guess, i can relate

His readlist is far too lazy, although that could happen as both town and scum when you aren't motivated, i can't really read him from that i think, wanna wait for at least whether he comes up with something real from that ISO readup.
No real interaction with maria D1 except for very indirectly defending her, that's bad.

So yea, i don't like him right now.

Pedit: @giga, yes, yes i would....

[MTD]

That in reply to myko, if that wasn't clear enough

[MTD]

Hey, you started it!

oh, no that wasn't the goal of the italics. I hoped we could talk about Kamelot's lynch next day as if dinner was being served. Could've been fun.

Oh.
Yea, that was too difficult for at this time of da.. night.

[MTD]

Oh look.

RK gets put at L-1 and people conveniently jump off the wagon before she gets a chance to say anything.
Peculiar

[MTD]

oh, that's what threw me off then.
Yea, my bad >.<

[MTD]

I just want to say two things.

Hey, you started it!

But sure.

He doesnt enjoy mafia much i guess, i can relate

His readlist is far too lazy, although that could happen as both town and scum when you aren't motivated, i can't really read him from that i think, wanna wait for at least whether he comes up with something real from that ISO readup.
No real interaction with maria D1 except for very indirectly defending her, that's bad.

So yea, i don't like him right now.

Pedit: @giga, yes, yes i would....

lmfao

mtd says he'd bus EP

I did not. that was in reply to you saying that i would know how raw human liver tastes.

and i VOTED THE COP

You are forgiven. Wouldn't do to be perfectly townread.

Anyway, I'm prepared to be proven wrong, twist that knife EP slammed into my heart, mtd Otherwise go finally lynch Jordan tomorrow, relieve him from this tormented existence.



P-edit2: I am not sure kraska was shot for being the vig, when rereading. The kill makes sense either way.

<3

[MTD]

town still hasn't found the shot-less SK transcend!

[MTD]

Oh wait, that's called survivor

[MTD]

Oh wait, that's called survivor

[MTD]

Yea that was fun.

We actually did not pick up on kraska being vig, just on transcend not being vig lol.

My blocks were all over the place >.<

gg

[MTD]

im still confused abt why everyone was TRing MTD so hard

So am I! lol

[MTD]

And yea dunno, wasn't particularly happy to be scum again.
I think i even let a question in that direction slide at some point?

[MTD]

yup, thanks a lot penguin

[MTD]

lol

[MTD]

"Transcend replaces Kane"
"I immediately regret this"

classic.

[MTD]

Lol yea, that was pretty random.