JaeReed's Mini Normal Review

[JaeReed]

Probably the first question I'd ask before thinking on balance is, what kind of game do you want to run? It seems like you want a somewhat diffuse set of town power that still works well together, and somewhat limited scum power to counteract it.

Um mostly I wanted a few things in the setup and tried to design around that.

Neighbours & day chat were the two main things I wanted. I kinda wanted the focus to be a little heavier on scumhunting with some potential for help if town aren't doing quite so well.

As far as secondary things...
Really didn't want a vig or follow the cop to be a thing, and wanted scum to have some bussing flexibility.

I'm wondering if the doc should even be in the setup tbh. Paired with the Uni Backup Neighbour that could be awful for scum. Like, the worst case scenario I'm imagining here is either lolhammer on the doc D1 or scum nks doc N1 only to have it end up in the town Neighbours' hands, where there's potential for 2 good players to decide what to do.
But then there's also the worst case town scenario where the neighbourhood doesn't turn into an essential masonry, or the uni backup inherits basically nothing from the joat or something. Not entirely sure how to treat the universal backup if the first PR to die used up all their shots. Do they inherit the 0 shot PR or do they inherit the next PR that has something left?

[JaeReed]

First question: can the mafia both kill and action?
Second question: how would you publicly respond to a question about non-mafia chat? That is, if someone asked you a question along the lines of, "MOD: Would any hypothetical neighborhood/masonry also have daychat?", how would you respond?
Third, how will you handle the backup inheriting power from a slot that has used up a shot? That is, what if the follower has used one shot? Both shots? Yet is the first to die. What if the JOAT has used one power, two powers, all three powers, and yet is the first to die? (Unlikely as that would be.)
Fourth, does the strongman bypass the BP?
Fifth, what roles get which results to the follower? For instance, what does activating the BP show as to the follower?
Sixth, if an ability is blocked, is the shot refunded or is it lost? The wording of "preventing" implies the former. (If you want the latter, then use "cause the actions to fail" rather than "prevent the actions". This is NOT a semantics difference, as the altered wording alters the effect for the game.)

1) Yeah, I have it in the rules but should probably give it its own line since it's just kinda tacked on to the bit about scum having day chat by default.

2) Not sure; people can interpret mod responses in weird ways sometimes so I'd have to be careful about it since it could potentially confirm the existence of a neighbourhood. Perhaps if I changed the bit about scum having daychat in the rules to just be "Daychat is enabled by default" so I could just quote that? The other option is responding with something like "Any and all PTs that may exist for this game would have daychat by default." but I feel like that might soft confirm neighbourhoods/masonry for some?

3) Wiki said something to the effect of the shots wouldn't be refunded usually and the person wouldn't be told how many shots were left which I think is ass, personally, so if I could I'd probably have shots not refunded but inform the backup how many shots are remaining? It's kinda bastard to not know stuff about your own role, and inheriting the role would then make it the UB's role so imo that's the fair thing to do? Any results (like from the gs) wouldn't be forwarded though. Idunno if I'd be allowed to do that though? I wouldn't want them to basically become a backup doc into late-game, so if all shots are used they'd just inherit in a named townie kinda manner, I think? Not sure if that's strictly normal either tho.

4) Yup

5) Mafia JOAT: Strongman - performed a killing action.
Role cop - performed a role investigative action.
Roleblocker - performed a blocking action.

Town JOAT: Gunsmith - performed a role investigative action. (I *think* that's what gs would fall under?)
Bulletproof - performed a protective action.
Jailkeeper - performed a jailkeeping action.

Doctor - performed a protective action.

6) Not refunded. Didn't think about the wording that way, so will have to change it.

[JaeReed]

I also had the thought: one potential way of bridging the two would be to gate the backup as well.
This would probably be a modification to the extent where it might not strictly speaking be "normal", but you have the capacity to use one non-normal role anyway.

What I had the thought of is that maybe the backup is one-shot: if the doctor dies, it becomes a 1x-doctor. If the JOAT dies, it can use any of the JOAT's abilities/any of the JOAT's unused abilities (depending on your answer to question #3)...but can only use the Joat powers ONCE, even if all three were available.
If it inherits an unused 2x follower, then it loses one of those shots to become a 1x-follower.

I'm not quite sure if this is something that you (or for that matter, the other reviewers) would want, and it'd be tricky to word right (not to mention, answer when questioned about), but to my mental calculations, it does give a good bridge between worlds: it's not something that will necessarily be believed, it's not a role which gives the town a huge boost, but it is a role which gives them some leeway if they get an early disadvantage.

I actually really like this idea since it closes off my main issues with the UB's existence punishing scum for playing well/rewarding town for playing bad. Probably still wouldn't refund the shots in this situation

because I'm a bitch

. Two gunsmith clear/guilty potential is too strong for me to justify it, tbh. But then ehhh idunno because being 1 shot uni backup and then getting a role with no shots left would

suck

.

[JaeReed]

Sixth, if an ability is blocked, is the shot refunded or is it lost? The wording of "preventing" implies the former.

Also, equally as important: if you're ASKED about whether an X-shot role being blocked would be refunded, how would you respond?

Publicly? "No comment."
Privately by one of the roles in question? "The shot would not be refunded."

I feel like that's one of the things that only the roles in question need to know, especially as again, people read into the smallest of things.

[JaeReed]

I have the BP as activated, smith. I was intending it to work as only active on the night it is activated. So like, once activated, even if not shot that night, the vest would be lost. I thought that was generally how JOAT BP's work?

[JaeReed]

4) One area of swing that is either a bug or a feature depending on how you see it is the scum powers being concentrated in the JOAT. An alternative would be to give each of the shots to one of the mafia, which would have the effect of making the game a bit less dependent on whether the key mafia PR is protected or lynched. I think I'd prefer the powers split up into separate one-shots for each mafia, but that's a thought kind of off the cuff, and am curious what the group and Jae think.

I put all the power on the one scum to leave a bit more flexibility in being able to bus, and also it should make it harder for scum to mess up the order of things. If each of them have one shot it's more likely that one of them will waste the rb or strongman too early, or they'll be locked in to having to read each other certain ways in order to stay alive for the required amount of nights to make use of the shots effectively.

Plus, if there happened to be a massclaim, with the shots spread out that way they could guess to strongman the protected PR, and also roleblock the other (between JOAT and follower) which I think is too much potential scum power in that situation with the shots not refunded. I mean, that's closer to a worst case scenario and unlikely to happen I think, though.

Idunno I feel like it's boxing scum out of options on reading their partners by spreading out the shots between them, but I suppose the same could be said about having one mafia be "it" for the team?

[JaeReed]

The main thing you'll have to deal with here is questions in regards to the universal backup. Say, "MOD: would a theoretical universal backup role receive the original role, or the role as it was upon its death?" or something to that effect. You have the latter, it's just a matter of what you'll answer. If this situation does come up, well, it's tough luck...but keep in mind, if it comes up, that means both the JOAT and the follower lived for two nights at minimum, so by that point in time, if all the town's PRs have lived...the backup really isn't needed to give the town an advantage.

Yeah, that's true. I'd still feel bad for the UB in that situation for basically just being a named townie But I suppose that has nothing to do with balance.

The question being about an individual role I'd opt for "No comment." there publicly. If the UB inherited the JOAT I'd let them know they inherit the role as it was upon death, but can only use one shot still, and let them know what they have remaining. I think I will opt for the UB being one shot. It doesn't make much difference to the rest of the PRs but it shuts down playing it like a Nurse, which I think is important.

[JaeReed]

So wrt the gated ub, would he get to choose which JOAT power he gets if inherited?

All of the unused ones, with the backup deciding which they get to use, is what I was assuming.

Yeah, this.

Another question: will the powers of the JOATs be revealed upon their deaths?

The role pm would flip as written here. So yeah the powers would be revealed. As far as the UB I'd just have it flip either as "1-shot Universal Backup" or maybe "1-shot Universal Backup (inherited JOAT)" so as not to give away what role was used, if any. If I flipped the UB with the JOAT's powers I'd include them all regardless of whether they actually had those shots to choose from in the end.

[JaeReed]

If I flipped the UB with the JOAT's powers I'd include them all regardless of whether they actually had those shots to choose from in the end.

To elaborate on this... I'd do it this way because they're inheriting the ROLE, which encompasses all of the shots, regardless of if there's 0 shots left.

[JaeReed]

So like, it'd still be listed as 1 shot jailkeeper even if the shot was used, because that was the total amount they had access to. Also because to do it any other way would be to confirm what powers were used, which then falls under directly influencing the game as a mod.

[JaeReed]

Wrt the BP shot, I think I'd prefer it as a commute. Your pm makes it clear, but I wouldn't be shocked to see the JOAT or UB be lazy about reading it and thinking it's passive like BP usually is.

I'm thinking with the gated UB it's probably balanced or very close to it. Imo towns power is mainly concentrated in kill prevention and sheer number of roles (with limited investigation power), and scum have limited but existent counters against that. And that's true whether JOAT is bp or commuter.

I still haven't figured into role pms and opening post, will look at that next, but I think I'm good with it balance-wise.

Having it as a commute locks scum out of strongmanning/roleblocking (thereby wasting the shot). Not entirely sure how that would affect the game balance-wise but something to consider when looking at that as an option. I'd almost say it's a guarantee that a JOAT commuter would partially claim after using the gs then use the commute in order to cause scum to waste whatever they have on them. It seems really powerful when thinking about it in that light.

[JaeReed]

Also, I kinda feel like it's their own fault if they don't read how their abilities work. Like, if you're going to be so lazy that you're not going to read your role PM then a lesson needs to be learned, imo. I ask them to respond with their role and alignment for a reason, and that's to ensure that they have actually read and acknowledged their role upon receiving it.

If it's a huge concern I suppose I could clarify to the JOAT/UB-JOAT upon confirmation that the bulletproof is an activated rather than passive ability to ensure they understand their role?

P-edit - Oh good, I thought it was just another instance of me being an ass

[JaeReed]

Strongman does puncture through bp but changing bp to commuter would make strongman unable to do that, since the very nature of commuter is that you're untargetable for the night rather than unkillable.

In my opinion, BP being activated means it can be blocked, since the activation is an action.

[JaeReed]

Yeah it's listed both under Strongman and Commuter on the wiki that commuter trumps strongman due to being untargetable. I think it's also listed in NAR since Commuter is a Hiding type role. They're just simply not there for the mafia to target with the strongman. Hence my aversion to replacing the BP with Commuter.

Question: When rolecopping the JOAT would the result just return "Jack of All Trades" or would it also list the abilities of the JOAT? I lean towards the former, but I'm not sure what the usual is there.

[JaeReed]

Also, do I need to have the possible results in the Follower's and Gunsmith's role PMs or is it enough to just have it in the mod info?

[JaeReed]

Welcome to Mini x!

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Lynches, nightkills, modkills…

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Links to all VCs for convenience

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Nice try. Wait til the end of the game.

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Setup & Mechanics

• This setup was reviewed by mhsmith0, mastin2, and fferyllt for normalcy and balance.
  
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Sample Role PM

Welcome to Mini x, Player!
You are a

Vanilla Townie

.
You have no powers except your vote and your voice.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town player is still alive.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your role and alignment.

Role PMs

Spoiler:

Welcome to Mini x, Player!
You are a

Mafia Goon

. Your partners are Name, a

Mafia Jack of All Trades

, and Name, a

Mafia Goon

.
You may talk with your team, day or night, in this thread.
Your team possesses a factional kill which any of you may perform during the night phase.
You win when mafia constitutes 50% of the remaining players with no other anti-town players not aligned with your faction alive, or nothing can prevent the same.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your role and alignment.

Welcome to Mini x, Player!
You are a

Mafia Goon

. Your partners are Name, a

Mafia Jack of All Trades

, and Name, a

Mafia Goon

.
You may talk with your team, day or night, in this thread.
Your team possesses a factional kill which any of you may perform during the night phase.
You win when mafia constitutes 50% of the remaining players with no other anti-town players not aligned with your faction alive, or nothing can prevent the same.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your role and alignment.

Welcome to Mini x, Player!
You are a

Mafia Jack of All Trades

. Your partners are Name, a

Mafia Goon

, and Name, a

Mafia Goon

.
You may talk with your team, day or night, in this thread.
Your abilities are:

1-Shot Strongman

– You may perform this along with your factional kill in order to bypass any protective or roleblocking abilities that would otherwise prevent your kill from succeeding.

1-Shot Rolecop

– You may choose a player to investigate at night for what role they are.

1-Shot Roleblocker

– You may choose a player to cause their action that night to fail.
Your team possesses a factional kill which any of you may perform during the night phase.
You win when mafia constitutes 50% of the remaining players with no other anti-town players not aligned with your faction alive, or nothing can prevent the same.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your role and alignment.

Welcome to Mini x, Player!
You are a

Vanilla Townie

.
You have no powers except your vote and your voice.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town player is still alive.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your role and alignment.

Welcome to Mini x, Player!
You are a

Vanilla Townie

.
You have no powers except your vote and your voice.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town player is still alive.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your role and alignment.

Welcome to Mini x, Player!
You are a

Vanilla Townie

.
You have no powers except your vote and your voice.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town player is still alive.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your role and alignment.

Welcome to Mini x, Player!
You are a

Vanilla Townie

.
You have no powers except your vote and your voice.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town player is still alive.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your role and alignment.

Welcome to Mini x, Player!
You are a

Vanilla Townie

.
You have no powers except your vote and your voice.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town player is still alive.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your role and alignment.

Welcome to Mini x, Player!
You are a

Town Doctor

.
During the night you may target one player to protect them from being killed that night.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town player is still alive.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your role and alignment.

Welcome to Mini x, Player!
You are a

Town Jack of All Trades

.
Your abilities are:

1-Shot Bulletproof

– You may activate this at night to make yourself impervious to one killing action that night.

1-Shot Jailkeeper

– You may choose a player to jail at night, causing any actions by them or on them during that night phase to fail.

1-Shot Gunsmith

– You may choose a player to investigate for a gun that night. Possible results are “Has a gun”, “Does not have a gun”, and “No result”.
You may activate only one ability per night.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town player is still alive.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your role and alignment.

Welcome to Mini x, Player!
You are a

Town 2-Shot Follower

.
During the night you may target one player to learn what type of action, if any, they performed. Possible results are “No Action”, “Blocking”, “Protective”, “Jailkeeping”, “Role Investigative”, “Action Investigative”, “Killing”, “Miscellaneous”, and “No Result”.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town player is still alive.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your role and alignment.

Welcome to Mini x, Player!
You are a

Town 1-Shot Universal Backup Neighbour

.
You are neighbours with x, and can talk with them here at any time during the day or night phase.
You will inherit the role of the first town PR that dies, for one time use only.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town player is still alive.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your role and alignment.

Welcome to Mini x, Player!
You are a

Town Neighbour

.
You are neighbours with x, and can talk with them here at any time during the day or night phase.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town player is still alive.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your role and alignment.

Revised stuff, is this all good?

[JaeReed]

fferyllt abandoned me, it seems

[JaeReed]

Kinda want to double check that if asked about a theoretical backup receiving an x-shot role it's ok to "No comment" considering it's a normal game.

Some might consider it a mechanics question that has to be answered where I'd lean more on it being a role question that shouldn't be answered publicly.

[JaeReed]

Alright, changed the UB role PM as recommended by smith. Removed Modkilled section (you're right; doesn't need its own section).

Still not refunding shots, and going with the "No comment" response to the public question of whether shots get refunded assuming Nexus is cool with that. I still consider that to be more of a role-based question than a mechanics one. Will inform UB JOAT what shots he has to choose from, but not the nights shots were used, who they were used on, or any potential results from the predec.

Redacted PMs in the mod thread is a good idea, so I'll do that. I was originally going to type it out for the flips but it's probably easier to have something to c/p. I was planning to put the PMs of all the maf in the mafia thread anyway so the goons know what shots the JOAT has to use. I probably prefer telling them their partners straight up though, so I wanna leave that in. Besides which I don't think it's much extra work to remove the few bits that require removing for the flip. Redacted PMs will look something like:

Welcome to Mini x, Player!
You are a

Mafia Goon

. [REDACTED]
You may talk with your team, day or night, in [REDACTED].
Your team possesses a factional kill which any of you may perform during the night phase.
You win when mafia constitutes 50% of the remaining players with no other anti-town players not aligned with your faction alive, or nothing can prevent the same.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your role and alignment.

Changed extension rule wording as per point 4 in smith's post.

Added rule:
[*]Votes that misspell or have other minor errors will still be counted as a vote so long as I understand who it is meant for.

I'm motivated to do the VC links... It's my first time modding so it's all exciting. I might not do it in the future, we'll see how lazy I get after this game

I think Neighbours are just really dependent on the skill of the players that roll it. Chances are they're going to become extremely paranoid of each other and the neighbourhood will be useless. Despite the fact that mafia having daytalk and the neighbourhood consisting only of 2 people makes it very likely that they're both town. I don't expect them to catch on to that, mainly because they don't know all the roles in the game. I'm hoping it'll get some good use regardless, though.

[JaeReed]

Um ffery hasn't posted since nov 8th, not sure what's up there. So still waiting on that. I don't think they've looked at it yet? I assume RL happened. Otherwise mastin and smith both said it looks good (I think).