Mini Normal 1854: Game Over

[havingfitz]

VOTE: Wyv

Statistically one of those replacements is scum.

So you're saying if 4 out of 13 players replace out of a game chances are one of them is scum. Brilliant.

VOTE: Io

[havingfitz]

Catch up thru 177:
So I didn't care for the stats dialogue on P1. FTR I don't think
using stats/probabilities later in the game is a bad idea (in lieu of
hard evidence or well earned suspicions). Using/considering them on
P1 of D1 just comes across as trying too hard to look busy for no good
reason. Io being the worst perpetrator of this effort. Hence my vote
on him.
@Ari...do you dislike all use of sarcasm or just the
particular sarcasm used with my Io vote? And why use "jump on Io" to
describe what to me seems like a normal vote. Is every vote placed a
"jump" on someone?
@Gamma...why question TVD's confidence? Seems like an
odd question. Would you prefer a meek self doubting player?
@LUV...not a big fan of the "TVD might be the most
optimal play" theory you are suggesting. Said when you still have an
RVS vote sitting on me and when your next vote winds up on Eric. This
after your post 109 where you say TVD would have the strongest chance
of flipping scum if he was a D1 lych candidate.
@Eric...I do not play on other sites so not sure if
that is a standard practice elsewhere but shame on any mod that would
do that here. Role assignments should be completely random.
@Eric...saying you don't always need a reason but
that your posts always have a meaning makes my head hurt a little.
And throwing in that you might be deceptive regardless of your
alignment sits poorly with me as well. Ex...hypothetical town you is
caught at some point in the game doing something suspect and you
excuse it to the other players as a necessary wrong for the good of
the town. lol.....seems like a good fallback for hypothetical scum
you to use if caught doing something suspect as well.
@Eric...

what is KP?

Also...to pound in my
comments on your post 130 above....anyone entered into a game (on this
site at least) should have an equal chance at any of the roles in a
game. In my experience on this site mods do not cherry pick roles for
certain players. So you as a newbie here have the same chance of
being scum as say a Hiraki or I do. Eric...on this site a KP is
referred to as a hammer. You hammer someone....not KP someone. KP
sounds like someone's about to be assigned to work in the kitchen.

I'm ok with where my vote is atm.
My current reads:
Leaning town - Hiraki and TVD
TBD - Everyone else
Suspect - Io, LUV..........Ari

[havingfitz]

@Hiraki...why is Eric a VI for not knowing what D1 means? Are the players who didn't know what KP meant VIs? It looks like he has experience playing mafia elsewhere which might make him naive to some of the waystreet of this site. Ex just because someone doesn't fluently speak the same language as you doesn't mean they aren't competent.

[havingfitz]

her replacing out is NAI imo regardless of reasons

1. I didn't ask you
2. I don't agree with you

1. We're you just thinking aloud and not looking for anyone else's opinion?
2. Who asked you?

[havingfitz]

And I refuse to preform MQs

What are MQs?

[havingfitz]

UNVOTE: Io/Deer

[havingfitz]

Eric....pretend you are scum. Would you expect that saying you are town is all it took to remove suspicions towards you?

[havingfitz]

Eric....pretend you are scum. Would you expect that saying you are town is all it took to remove suspicions towards you?

this is dumb, i expected more from you

1. I didn't ask you
2. I don't agree with you

[havingfitz]

I started the post below yesterday and then my slow day became not so slow...

//Slow day. I notice I only have 3 posts....sorry about that. I do
tend to be a bit of an underposter that catches up in longer type
posts. Being primarily a phone poster slows me down a bit too. But I
digress...

So catching up from post 177 to 262...

I still am of the opinion TVD and Hiraki are town. TVD hasn't done
anything to change my previous view on him because he hasn't done
anything (literally) since my last catch up post. Whereas Hiraki has
zeroed in on LUV...who I also have suspicions
towards. I also still do not like the Io slot because of my
aforementioned reasons and now because they have flaked out of the
game. My vote is teetering between LUV and Io but I'll keep it where
it's at for now until Io's replacement changes my mind or a better
spot for it presents itself.//

So to resume....

My vote on Io wasn't based on the firmest of indictments and I've
liked what I've seen from Deer so far so I removed my vote. I believe
the mason claims. LUV was on the verge of getting lynched and his
claim made sense. Outing both masons wasn't necessarily a good idea
unless absolutely required but at least it will help with POE as long
as they both are alive. I do not think scum would fakeclaim mason and
risk outing two players as they could be subject to potential
investigative PRs who doubt their claim. I can't recall exactly why
but I also had niggling suspicions towards Misa. So their claims has
helped divert my radar elsewhere as I probably would have wound up on
the LUV wagon as well once my suspicions on the Io slot had been
reduced.

So where am I now?

Town (masons) - LUV, Misa
~Town - Hiraki, TVD

Ari

: Softcrumb (~bad). Vote on me (despite essentially
agreeing with my reasons for voting Io after
condemning me for my Io vote) (bad). Votes a ~mason (~bad). Lobbies
against voting Eric (ffr). =

weak suspicion

Creeps

: Not a lot of posts (bad). Early push for scum hunting
(good). Early Eric vote was valid (based on Eric's bad Post
140 (ffr). Some impressive irony. = weak
town lean

TwiszTed

: Very active (good). Defends Ari softclaim against
TVD (ffr). Town post (good).
Questions Eric's mason vote (good). Debates his Eric
vote to TwoFace (ffr). Gets pissed at TwoFace
misrep. (ffr). Surrenders to Eric ~newbie-ness and
unvotes (ffr). Banned (bad...on him). Lean town.

TwoFace

: Very active(good). Early stat theory fluff (~bad).
Shades mason (bad). Misreps (bad) Ted and gets into tiff. Naked
Misa/mason vote (bad). Defensive of Eric (ffr). Says vote on Misa is
gut (Post 262) despite having just given
several reasons for voting her (bad).
Reiterates vote on Misa doesn't have a lot of merit.
General snarkiness. =

Scum lean.

Gamma Emerald

: Very active (good). Early theory and alt fluff
(bad). Questions TVD's confidence (?). Seems to be shading TVD a bit
(ffr). Emphatically tells Eric not to claim. Votes
mason (bad). Emphatically tells Luv to out his
partner. Question for Gamma.....have you ever played in a game
were a mason claimed and did not immediately reveal his partner's
identity thereby proving they were fake-claiming scum? If scum are
going to fakeclaim why involve a partner? They could just fake claim
a PR that they might hate to see in the game in hopes of getting away
with it or outing said disliked PR. Poor excuse for
encouraging mason partner outing. (bad). Lack or
partner wasn't important yet and you literally screamed for
LUV's partner 1 minute after he claimed. =

Scum
lean.

Io/Deer

: Not a lot of posting yet. I disliked Io's stats chat
to start the game but I've liked what Deer has brought to the game so
far. Town lean for me atm.

Frankjaeger

: Not enough to go on yet. = Null

Eric

: Bit of a late entry in the game with an immediate mason
vote for gut minus any evidence (bad). Proceeds to gives reasons
for LUV vote and voices suspicion of Gamma and Ted (ffr). A few posts
related to how things are or aren't done on this site compared to his
experience (meh). Post 140 is just a bad post for
reasons I have previously explained. As yet unexplained Ted vote
(ffr). Has lots of mafia experience....is aware others find him
suspect but doesn't nothing to correct aside from proclaiming himself
town (bad). =

Scum lean.

[havingfitz]

VOTE: TwoFace

[havingfitz]

@Hiraki...your mindset on Eric as I understand it is that you think he is town because he is a newbie and because he is a VI. If this is inaccurate please let me know. With regard to that interpretation...I do not agree with that mindset. 1) Vis and newbies can be scum just as easily as anyone and 2) Several years of mafia experience (albeit not on this site) =/= newbie and the things you are basing your VI read on him for iirc are things that can simply be attributed to being unfamiliar with some aspects of this website. The things he says and does are still fair game for assessing his alignment. I'm not and haven't been willing to just discard him for being new to this site. And your Post 331 seems to hint at you at least being open to considering that Eric could be scum. Prior to the mason claims and Deer replacing in, Eric was lower down on my radar and not in conflict with your adamant mindset. With 3 people who were on my radar now removed for now...he has gone up on my list of suspects. And still not getting my vote despite that btw. And wrt your mindset....it appears to have been wrong on LUV so nothing is perfect.

@TwoFace... You hadn't received a vote yet so it's good to see how quickly you reply with a vote on me in kind. As for your response to my assessment on you:

- I didn't say staying active was bad. You inferring I said this is a misrep and absurd given that I say you are active and that that is good. IMO talking about the statistical odds of hitting scum in a group of four players on P1 of D1 is completely worthless. And going on and on about it serves absolutely no value and just gives the impression of trying. If it's not doing that then it has no place in the game...therefore is not progressing the game at all...and I find that counterproductive...aka suspect.

- I viewed your Post 33 comments towards LUV as trying to plant seeds of suspicion (shade) on him.

- As for the Ted misrep...you claimed Ted inferred Eric had to ~always justify his reads and that Eric "gave no reasons" for his votes. And didn't give reasons for "all of his scum reads."
All Ted said when he voted Eric in Post 142 was that Eric was "throwing out reads with zero backing." "Reads" implies more than one read....not ALL reads. Throughout your debate with Ted he states he was referring to two scumreads in particular. Not all of Eric's reads as you attack him for.

- I'm not saying your naked vote on Misa is bad...I'm saying you voting a mason is bad. Which I can say in my post with the hindsight now that you were voting town. If I didn't assume LUV and Misa were telling the truth I wouldn't have considered you vote negatively.

- Defending a town read...I just point it out for future reference. Null atm. Defensive much?

- I viewed your description of voting Misa as gut more than once after giving several reasons as your ways of backtracking on the vote...giving yourself a little deniability if Misa were lynched and to flip town. A softening of your stance on her while at the same time maintaining your vote on her.

- In hindsight voting town (mason Misa) is bad...yes? Voting town in bad...yes? We have more information at our disposal following the mason claims so that colors your vote on Misa negatively. Comprehend?

- Lovely.

@TwoFace wrt post 357. Why can't I use the mason claims (until they are shown to be false) to discredit any pushes made on them? It's no different than being in D2 of a game after a D1 mislynch and looking back on the mislynch wagon. Stop trying to undermine the information at hand.

[havingfitz]

Happy Thanksgiving to those who celebrate it. I do and am out of town through Saturday. Limited to no posting till then.

[havingfitz]

Just a quick check in...I will try to respond to specific points/questions nlt Syunday.

I will say I find it funny that I am

1)

being accused/voted (by those I cast suspicion towards btw) of suspecting everyone who suspected/voted for a mason

while at the same time

2)

being criticized for town reading two of the players who voted/suspected a mason.

Point 2 negates point 1

. Which no one seems to even notice. And I readily admitted I suspected both LUV and Misa....but I know I am not scum.

I am not suspecting players of being scum solely based on the fact they suspected/voted a mason. But now that we have the mason claims that is perfectly valid information to consider.

More when I get back.

[havingfitz]

This catch up is just getting me through things commented on on page 15. I will try to catch up on other things tomorrow.

First you voted me or did you forget?

That doesn't matter though. Your attempt at a case on me is the kind of garbage I don't see town making. Some of your other posts I don't see town making, especially you who I know is a decent player.

To somehow imply my vote on you was bad just shows you can't be town

I know I voted you...mine was the first you received iirc and your omgus reaction comes across very poorly. As do your wagon mates I cast suspicions towards.

That doesn't matter though. Your attempt at a case on me is the kind of garbage I don't see town making. Some of your other posts I don't see town making, especially you who I know is a decent player.

To somehow imply my vote on you was bad just shows you can't be town

But you implying my vote/case on you is bad doesn't "just show you can't be town?"

Havingfitz: pushing the masons before they claim is NAI. If you wanted to attack someone for doubting the claim then that would make more sense.

If there was a mislynch today would it be acceptable to cast suspicions D2 on the people voting the mislynch (i.e. VCA?). Two millers claiming D1 essentially provides that same VCA opportunity before D1 ends. Trying to vote town IS AI.

I already said I can't remember the term, maybe chainsaw defense? Idk it looks like you're buddying them by calling the people voting them scummy.

The votes could be justified but you don't seem to consider that.

My vote on misa was completely justified.

I don't give a shit if he's a mason, that doesn't change my opinions and I certainly am not going to change that now. I was wrong cause he is town, but that doesn't mean I'm scum or even scummy.

I'm sure town voting the masons thinks their votes are justified. I don't think everyone voting the masons is suspect. But I had stated before the claims that I two of the players were town reads who at some point suspected/voted the masons. That made it more likely IMO that the others had a greater chance of being suspect. And now that misa and LUV have claimed your opinion has changed hasn't it? You won't be voting them because of their claim...correct?

moreso just trying to stir discussion, i won't vote eric this game

your analysis is almost spot on except that I also think that eric is lying from a town position - it's a radical theory but it's a theory. how do you feel about that aspect?

I do not lie as town unless it's to save myself from a mislynch. Though I can't remember any examples of when I have. If I think someone is lying that's a scum indictment in my books. Where do you think Eric is lying?

Ted said Eric didn't explain his reads. I called him on it because he did explain one of them. Was it a mistake by ted? Probably but again I pointed out the facts. I didn't misrep anyone.

What I said still applies...Ted didn't say ALL Eric's reads were without reason which was what you were inferring and what got you both in a spat.

Explaining why I have a gut read on them and keeping my vote on them is giving myself deniability of softening my stance? You can't be serious. By adding to my vote I'm commuting myself more to that read making it harder to get away from it.

The quotes below point out what I am saying. After your naked vote on Misa you gave a few reasons and then afgterwards only referred to your vote as gut...not very strong gut at that. I do not equate reasons with gut so your comments below look like backtracking to me.

I voted you cause I think your vote on Eric is garbage. Your reason for voting him is garbage and I disagree that him wanting to rush the day is a scumtell. Looks like going after an easy target which I feel is more likely to come from town. Some of Eric's posts aren't great but nothing looks like they have scummy intentions. Yours on the other hand do to me.

my vote is more of a gut thing atm

It's really just a gut read ATM. Not sure it's strong enough to sell anyone on

Is voting misa before I knew she was amasin bad? 100% no way
Is voting town bad? Sure but I didn't know she's town so you can't use that against me.

I can use it against you. And how do I know you didn't know she was town???

I guess I do need to find games where you voted a town PR. The fact you act like town can't be wrong and it automatically makes anyone who voted a mason scummy means you're hypocrite or scum.

Of course town can be wrong. I've acknowledged it in this case by admitting my own suspicions and saying I thought Hiraki and TVD were town. Your point???

I mean technically you're voting town right now havingfitz, so you're bad or scum your self.

Technically? How do I know you are town who voted town? I mean technically you could be scum voting town.

That didn't take long. You pushed a lynch d1 on a town pr and you weren't scum - viewtopic.php?p=6973570#p6973570

So? There are always more town on a successful mislynch wagon than there are scum. How does that relate to this game? Are you saying there were no scum (with the knowledge they were voting for town) voting for the masons before they claimed?

More tomorrow.

[havingfitz]

A lot of stuff to try to respond to. Since the person I am voting was nice enough to consolidate his efforts in post Post 420 I will give that a quick response and then work on anything else I see from page 16 and beyond.

WRT my Post 419...I had seen people repeatedly condemning me for assigning suspicion towards EVERYONE who voted/suspected the masons before they claimed. And I had also seen several people call me out for not assigning blame on myself (asinine) and my town reads. I had not noticed anyone state that the two assertions cannot exist at the same time. I.e. everyone =/= some.

Since I voted you in Post 350 you have stated or inferred that I am making the ~blanket assertion that anyone who voted or suspected a mason in bad (i.e. scum). You do this in Posts 357, 365, 371, 372, 380, 385...

In Post 391 you finally mention that two people I am town reading suspected the masons. Ding ding ding ding ding...this negates your "biggest problem" with my Post 349. Which is what I point out in my 419. Iirc Gamma and Ari had made similar assertions about me suspecting everyone who suspected the masons pre-claim.

But as shown in Post 516 you are still crying foul about my casting suspicions towards some of the people who voted the pre-claim masons. First off....in my Post 349 I do not say that anyone voted a mason they are automatically scum. The fact some people were voting masons was only one consideration in a list of, in most cases, multiple things I found suspect. You had 6 things listed that I did not care for. Gamma had 3... Eric had ~3... Ari had 3. Simply casting a vote or suspicions on a mason count not = a player being scum and was never said to equal that. Your continued focus on that one inaccurate assertion shows your case on me is baseless.

Question to you TwoFace. If I think at least 3 of the people who cast suspicions/votes on the masons pre claim are still town....does that mean I do or do not find everyone who cast suspicions/votes on the masons pre claim to be "automatically" scummy?

OK...back to your 420 questions...

Wrt Post 368...reading is key. I do not have that many posts. I already explained why I thought Eric's Post 140 was bad (see Post 178).

Wrt Post 372...this is an asinine question. Ex. If you are town and you are on 3 mislynches in a row....does that mean you are going to suddenly find yourself suspect? I know my alignment. I do not know yours. You voting a ~town player is cause for suspicion.

Wrt Post 389...I'm more interested in finding scum and seeing things I find suspect. As I glazed through the 50+ pages of my catch up post TVD and Hiraki came across as town to me. Call is gut. Others came across as suspect for me. I do not spend a lot of time defending people I do not 100% know are town. And my comments on LUV aren't so much a defense of TVD as they are a criticism for a very bad post by LUV. One of the reasons in fact I suspected him before his claim. Did you like LUV's Post 88?

Wrt Post 396...there is nothing fair or unfair about the way I assign my suspicions. Are you suggesting that if I find one person scummy for suspecting/voting the masons that I have to find everyone scummy who suspected/voted the masons? Because that's not what I was ever doing. And I already answered your question about me suspecting you for your naked vote on Misa. I did not. I mentioned you made a naked vote on a mason. Take out the word naked if you want. My issue was with you voting the mason (along with several other issues). Not with it being a naked vote. Comprehension is key.

More asap.

[havingfitz]

What is your case on me TwoFace? Try using points that haven't been shown to be false

[havingfitz]

I am still waiting on you to explain in detail why you are town reading hiraki and tvd
You used gut earlier but gave no actual reasons.

I wall post responded to your post 420 consolidation of several questions to me. If I can't get you to answer a simple question in return as to why you suspect/are voting me then no further responses to you are warranted after this post. And there is no reason to explain in detail why on page 8 or 9 I have players who I lean town on. Especially to appease you who on more than one occasion in this game have dismissed providing reasons:

Here are some quotes from you on that subject:

143 - "you don't always have to justify your reads" (so no details required?)
149 - "doesn't need to give reasons for all his scum reads, especially early day 1". (So reasons for scum reads AREN'T required but are for players I say I lean town on?)
262 - "no strong reads....my vote is more of a gut thing atm". (no so details required?)
338 - "but gut is a legitimate reason to vote" (but not to believe someone is town?)

And I do not spend as much effort assigning people a town read when my focus is finding scum. I suspect you are scum. Hence my vote, with reasons, on you. I have expended more effort and provided more response for you than deserved. If you can't provide a case on me (concisely would be nice) then you have no business pushing it (whatever "it" is). ***Incentive for you...if you do a good enough job you might get my wagon rolling again.

Let's lock down some reasons so you can't backtrack later.
you know since that is what you thought I was going to do with my Misa read so it's only fair that you outline your reads with actual reasons so you can't do the same thing.

See detail comments above.

And it's not the same thing. You voting someone and giving several reasons for it and then just 3 posts later, and again later that day, saying your vote is gut (though gut was not one of the reasons you provided) is backtracking IMO. Me saying I think someone is town and then (if I were to) provide details later is 1) not backtracking....it's supporting my position, and 2) any reasons for thinking players are town (and reasons do exist btw) would not be "locked down." A town lean has as just as much chance of becoming suspect later in the game as a suspect (ex. Io and LUV) does at becoming a town read later.

@fitz - after you do than can we get some thoughts on Creeps. Obviously you aren't going to be voting hiraki which means creeps is most likely where your vote is going to go. I just want to see if you think he is scum and if so, why do you think he is.

Pay attention...I provided comment on Creeps already. Hit the #number link next in the isolation parentheses and do a search on Creeps.

[havingfitz]

You asked me to answer a question I already answered way before you asked me. So how can you sit there and say I didn't answer you is mind boggling to me.

I asked you to provide your case on me using points that haven't been shown to be false. You have not done so...before or after my question.

Refuse to answer. Got it.
Let's lynch this guy now. I'm certainly not reading anything else he says anymore if he can't justify his town reads when asked.

Why should I answer your questions when you refuse to answer mine? And as far as me justifying my town reads....stop being such a hypocrite. These are quotes from you:

143 - "you don't always have to justify your reads" (so no details required?)
149 - "doesn't need to give reasons for all his scum reads, especially early day 1". (So reasons for scum reads AREN'T required but are for players I say I lean town on?)
338 - "but gut is a legitimate reason to vote" (but not to believe someone is town?)

Since you do not want to update your case on me I'll assume you are sticking to your initial case which afaict was "Too many non ai or non truths being twisted into appearing bad." For those not paying attention here they are again

with my responses following.

Early stat theory stuff is null since that was the conversation going on - to say otherwise is scum motivated imo unless you can explain how staying active in the conversation is bad which nobody can cause it's not.

- I didn't say staying active was bad. IMO talking about the statistical odds of hitting scum in a group of four players on P1 of D1 is completely worthless. And going on and on about it serves absolutely no value and just gives the impression of trying. If it's not doing that then it has no place in the game...therefore is not progressing the game at all...and I find that counterproductive...aka suspect.

Shade mason? Where? - pretty sure I didn't so possible misrep here

- I viewed your Post 33 comments towards LUV as trying to plant seeds of suspicion (shade) on him.

I certainly didn't misrep ted. Misrep in your part

- you claimed Ted inferred Eric had to ~always justify his reads and that Eric "gave no reasons" for his votes. And didn't give reasons for "all of his scum reads." All Ted said when he voted Eric in Post 142 was that Eric was "throwing out reads with zero backing." "Reads" implies more than one read....not ALL reads. Throughout your debate with Ted he states he was referring to two scumreads in particular. Not ALL of Eric's reads as you attack him for. IMO this was misrepping Ted to garner unwarranted suspicions on him.

Naked votes aren't bad - you should know better than that

- I never said naked votes were bad. My comment was to indicate voting a mason was bad.

Defending a town read one who's most likely lynch bait - protown.

- I didn't say this was bad. I simply placed it there to look back on later if and when yours or Eric's alignments were known.

Vote on gut but gave reasons is somehow bad? No because gut is usually able to be explained by pointing to things. If you were a newb I could see you making this mistake but you aren't a newb

- you didn't vote on gut. You gave several reasons for your vote. It was backing off your reasons and saying your vote was gut afterwards that I find suspect..

My vote on misa was good imo, reiterating it isn't bad

- Voting town is never good. With the current knowledge that exists...that you were voting town...I can say in hindsight that vote was bad. Essentially VCA. You want to dismiss it because I'm using it against you in combination with other suspicions. Not on it's own...in combination with other suspicions.

Snarkiness - this is non ai, especially since it's my personality

So fitz is probably scum. Too many non ai or non truths being twisted into appearing bad. No way an experienced town player comes to this conclusion.
VOTE: fitz

So NO non-truths. And as far as AI...whether you the accused agree or not...in my opinion there are things AI. Ex. what I deem a misrep on Ted, backing off your Misa vote reasoning, and voting town.

the biggest problem I see with fitz post is he is discrediting people who voted for the masons, when nobody voted a known mason. Just because somebody voted somebody who later claimed mason doesn't mean their vote was bad.

At one point LUV's wagon was at 5 votes. You think there was no scum in those 5 votes?

You were the only person who voted Misa for what was eventually in your words....weak reasoning and gut. In hindsight is voting town bad?

Below are some quotes from a response from you to Deers:

Go read the part where

he's basically calling anyone who voted the masons bad,

but he was scum reading one of the masons which means his basis for that assumption is bad. Also look at the example where he as town previously led a lynch on a town PR which also means HISTORICALLY his thought process is flawed.

This is a blatant lie. You are misrepping me to Deers and anyone else paying attention. In hindsight all of the votes on masons were bad because voting town is bad. I do not however ever say anyone who voted the masons is scum and I do not suspect anyone of being scum solely on the basis of the fact they voted a mason. It's just one factor to consider.

A person votes a scummy person who later claims a pr, doesn't make everyone guilty.

That's how he's treating everyone though.

This is a blatant lie. You are misrepping me to Deers and anyone else paying attention. You even point out that I'm not treating everyone as guilty on more than one post.

It also implies fitz knows Eric is town.

Please explain how asking Eric a hypothetical question implies I know he is town? Because I asked him to "pretend to be scum?" Absurd.

In Summary....look at what TwoFace is accusing me of and make your own determinations. He hasn't made any valid case on me and his main objection is something he himself has shown to be false.

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Other misc comments....

One thing I do agree with TwoFace on is that Vedith is simple minded. TF is in no way "town as shit." Vedith is either his scum buddy or blowing smoke up his ass to keep him off his. Ironic given that TF drove Vedith's predecessor bat shit crazy by misrepping him (though they consummated their spat with any votes).

This game has a serious case of the nobody gives a fcuks.

Frank needs force replaced....all he has done over the last 9 days is post 9 times making excuses or promises while not seeming to have the same problem in his other games.

Eric and TVD flaking sucks. At least Eric's replacement will come in with all that town cred Eric built up by being new to this site and coming across as a troll/VI. Because apparently no scum ever did that.

[havingfitz]

But anyway I think that comment on 143/149 is a misrep because he was talking about page 6. Very early day 1, which is imo okay to judge reads based on gut/tone and nothing more. If it was said right now (late day one, on the edge of night one), it would've been okay, but that was page friqqin six.

Misa...are you saying I am misrepping TF by pointing out statements he made showing his opinion that reasons weren't always needed for a read?

I stated my town reads on Hiraki and TVD at the top of page 8 in only my 2nd post of the game and less than 24 hours from the start of the game.

If you (and anyone else) don't consider this early game then to put it nicely, you are wrong. If you mean something else please clarify.

Btw it was fitz who voted IO

for his comment about replacements.

I never gave my reason for voting Io and no one asked. You're making an assumption. Since you didn't ask I'll clarify why I voted for Io:
1 - I didn't like the useless chat about statistics. Perhaps later in the game (D3 and beyond) but on page one of D1 is just of no value at best and at worst...indicative of someone trying to be seen as making an effort/contribution to the game.
2 - I wanted to see what kind of reaction I'd get from Io for my vote. Io only made one more post in the game and did not refer to my vote on him before getting replaced.

Speaking of votes for reaction...fyi...my vote on you was in part for the same reason and your reaction to it was just what I would expect from scum.

150+ posts go by and he leaves his vote on Io which imo is bad cause that couldn't be the scummiest thing to happen.

What "150+ posts go by" are you talking about? As you mention below my vote was on Io for 300+ posts. And what is your point? I placed a vote on someone that gave me a hint of suspicion and in the absence of any response or further posting to change my mind it stayed there. Deer changed my mind on the slot and you were the scummiest thing to come along hence my vote on you.

Leaves his vote on IO until 342. 300+ posts before an unvote happened

And what is your point? Are you just saying things for the sake of saying them? What does my leaving a vote on Io for 300+ posts matter? We're 600+ posts into the game and haven't even got a vote from Frank yet. Eric's vote was planted on Ted/Vedith for over 270 posts. You didn't place a vote until 200+ post into the game (on town btw) and you had no real suspicions that you were committed to until I voted you.

And no retort to my re-summarizing of your ~case on me? I'll take that as concurrence. I.e. You have no valid case.

Fitz reads like he truly believes what he's saying but I don't like that he won't point to what is giving him these gut reads on Hiraki and TVD. He's using TF's comments soft defending Eric to justify not having to answer questions but

fails to realize those same comments were about explaining reads early on in the day phase.

It's late into Day 1, no excuse.

Well...I do believe what I am saying. It's an easy thing to do when you are 1) town telling 2) the truth. See my comments above to Misa regarding early in the game. My reads on Hiraki and TVD

were

given early in the game. It's late in D1 now but it wasn't when I gave my reads.

For me to go back over the first 7 pages of this game to reassess why at that point in the game Hiraki and TVD came across as town to me (above and beyond or in justification of gut) seems like a pointless exercise. Especially when my D1+ focus tends to be finding scum...not coming up with a lot of reasons to justify people who I get a town vibe from.

And to be honest...I've been so occupied with TwoFace since I voted him that I have not had time since my Post 349 reads to further assess other players....to include Hiraki and TVD. TVD would probably still fall in the town category for me due to not having done anything to change my mind (and not doing anything period) iirc since I first mentioned my read on him. I don't think my read on Hiraki has changed either. But I don't even know why he is being run up atm.

[havingfitz]

My apologies fitz, didn't mean to make an incorrect assumption about your reason for voting IO. Looking over this quote again it seemed transparent to me why you were voting
him, but if you are saying i am incorrect, I guess I am...

You are. But that seems to be the norm this game.

the reason you gave for choosing not to didn't make sense considering what part of Day 1 it is

?????????????

I stated my town reads on Hiraki and TVD at the top of page 8 in only my 2nd post of the game and less than 24 hours from the start of the game.

You have two basically confirmed masons, wanting to know how you came to your gut reads to determine if they're genuine and not fake

to go back over the first 7 pages of this game to reassess why at that point in the game Hiraki and TVD came across as town to me (above and beyond or in justification of gut) seems like a pointless exercise.

buuuuut ffs and whatever. I will look over HIraki and TVD and point out what led to my page 8 town reads on them. Should be able to later today.

Fitz I know I scumread and I can't remember why, nor can I be bothered to check atm. I'll vote there if I have to.

Thanks for the effort. No surprise really. Iirc correctly your suspicions were sheeping TF's crap case. Iirc.

twoface makes good arguments against fitz + i like him defending eric whos town

TF has yet to make a good argument. But I'm sure you would townread him for defending Eric. Kind of like OMGYA.

At this point I would be happy to be scum but at this stage it can get you living till the end. Pretty good as either alignment.

What Ari said (amazingly).

[havingfitz]

OK...TVD town read read deonstructed:

I liked his Post 34. Looked like he was not playing superficially.

I liked his Post 41 and subsequent posts (up through Post 95discussing it. I did not think Ari's entrance to the game was the greatest so I was of a like mind as TVD on the subject.

I liked his Post 99. Questioning Ari's vote on me. I know I'm town. TVD giving someone flak for voting me FMPOV comes across town. He also goes on in the same post to question Ari about not being a fan of Hiraki...someone else I'm town reading (more on that later). TVD is equaling town IMO.

He continues to press Io in I liked his Post 100 about his D1 stats chat...something I was legitimately opposed to. Like minded again.

His vote on LUV in hindsight was on town so that is the worst thing he did while he was here IMO. But according to Two Face that's NAI. Regardless of his suspicions towards LUV the comments above outweighed the LUV IMO.

Hence TVD t the top of page 8 less than 24 hours into the game was a town read for me. And as he didn't post any more content aside from a v/LA and an I'll be back after I townread him...my read has not changed.

Hiraki next...

[havingfitz]

Hiraki town read read deonstructed:

I've played with Hiraki several times before and like him as a player. I think he is a good attribute for town to have when he is town so I think I tend to think of him as town until he proves me otherwise.

I liked his Post 70 giving Ari a little heat on Ari's softcrumb. I didn't care for the softcrumb either so we were likeminded on it.

I liked his Post 91 civing his reasoning for voting LUV (yes...I realize LUV later claimed mason). I was especially critical of LUV (in my mind at least ) for point 3 that Hiraki mentions. Likeminded.

His Post 98 was ok for early game.

I think the town read I gave to Hiraki in my Post 178 was an early stage pass on a player I like playing with who had made a few comments I agreed with and who at that point had not done anything to make me not town read him.

Up to my post Post 349 I think the worst thing Hiraki had done was his vote on LUV. Which...he seemed very committed to. I do not see a player with Hiraki's experience being such a strong advocate for a (in hindsight of the claim) mislynch. I think he would be smarter than that. Also defending Eric as adamently as he did. While I did disagree with him on this...unless the were scum partners (Hiraki and Eric) I do not see a scum Hiraki going to the trouble he went to to defend Eric as a VI. Which I in fact questioned him on.

That's about it. Since my Post 349 TVD had provided no content before his recent replacement and I was too engaged with TF to notice anything Hiraki was doing.

But at least up to Post 349 I am still good with how I stood on them both.

[havingfitz]

the reason he

(TF)

gets more cred for it is that hiraki's didn't feel as genuine, whereas i liked tf's attitude about it.

Not as genuine? If I recall Hiraki was the first person to go out on a limb proclaiming Eric was a VI (and ergo not voteworthy). Not something I would have done in the presence of suspect posting by Eric. And certainly no reason for scum to. How was Hiraki's attitude about Eric off?

Not sure why TF continues to skate.

[havingfitz]

Fitz from what I remember does that kind of thing as both alignments though.
List reads are easy to do as scum. Easier when you have a claimed pr.

1) Since you keep referencing your experience with me who are you?
2) doing a list read is no big deal...what's important is what is being said in it.
3) I'd think a list read done after 2 claimed prs would be less beneficial to scum because the scum pool is smaller. 2 less players to hide scumtells.

[havingfitz]

Who I am doesn't matter.

So you can continually make references to your experience with me to support your comments (albeit poorly) but I shouldn't have the same luxury?

[havingfitz]

Far as I am concerned I don't give two shits about prior experience

I typically don't either. I was just curious because TF has made several points based on his experience with me. Even if he was a known alt for someone I knew/recalled it probably wouldn't effect my view of him in this game.

[havingfitz]

Frank...regardless of your alignment, why don't you just do this game a favor and replace out ffs.

[havingfitz]

I would vote Gamma and Ari as well. Neither of them have done fcukall this game that I can recall other than sheeping TwoFace's crapass case on me.

Vedith and Deers have petered out after replacing in. Sadly. wtf

Josh has revived the Eric slot a bit so looking forward (hopefully) to seeing what that slot provides tomorrow.
Misa claimed mason so I guess their work is done

[havingfitz]

4 suspects for me atm.

TwoFace
Ari
Gamma
Vedith

Eric falls off the list due to josh's play and Vedith joins it. Points to early D1 suspicions between the 2 without vote to show commitment.

TwoFace continues to slide.

VOTE: Gamma

[havingfitz]

This feels like playing into popular opinion but at least you have the balls to vote me.

TwoFace wasn't gaining any momentum and you had no votes...how is that playing to anything other than switching to a different scumread?

Eric's conftown buddy.

1)...the list I referred to was my Post 349 players assessment. I had Eric as a scum lean. I started backing off that shortly after josh replaced in.

2) How is it Gamma that you consider Eric conftown?

Look at his list of 4 scum... "Only scum vote me" attitude.

Are you even trying? The only person I list as a suspect that had even looked cross-eyed in my direction was Ari.. So not sure wtf you are talking about with the " 'Only scum vote me' attitude" accusation. Unless you are talking about my most recent list. Which as you can see from my first list...half of whom I suspected prior to them casting votes on me.

I also pointed out that he leaves out hiraki/tvd for some reason. He held those 2 as strong town reads based off "gut" and he refused to explain his reads on them until later when masons asked him.

Errrr.....the "some reason" has been stated several times. I didn't do reads on LUV and Misa either...did you have a problem with that? And I never called Hiraki or TVD "strong town reads". I said "Leaning town" and "~ Town"...which is the same as leaning. And their slots are still town reads for me and subject to change based on game events. As is my read on everyone.

His logic was flawed to begin with. The fact he didn't use it equally is actually what makes him suspicious

You are referring to my scum reads with hindsight of voting for masons. Applying the suspicion equally to everyone would cancel it out. As explained several times but outside of your comprehension level or best interests...the voting on masons was only a factor I considered amongst several for each of my scum reads. Everyone that suspected or voted the masons is not scum...but that doesn't mean it was a pro-town thing to do. If I took out any mention of voting or suspecting masons from my scum reads in Post 349 I'd still come out suspecting the same people for the other reasons stated.

[havingfitz]

PARTNER NOW!

Creeps I'd prefer if you claimed now since we're having trouble assembling votes rn.

Creeps needs to claim NOW

I hate pushing claims before they are necessary. Why potentially out a PR if not necessary?


What ever happened to this?

What.
YOU CLAIM AT L-1!
Hmmmm...

More Gamma votes please.

[havingfitz]

Fitz, don't you think that claiming with ~1 day left until deadline is pretty reasonable when you're the top wagon?

This is a good point. I was more focused on the fact Gamma has been doing this throughout the day when we were "nowhere close to deadline then."

[havingfitz]

Doing what through the day?

Pushing claims.

[havingfitz]

By "throughout the day", do you mean "that one time when there were three days of deadline left"? Or do you have examples that you didn't quote?

The first example I gave was from 2 weeks ago. It's appeared to be a recurring theme. Those three examples are it. Along with his advice to not claim unless at L-1.

[havingfitz]

Fitz, where did you go?

5am wake up. Zzzzzzz

[havingfitz]

And is that the crux of your case against him?

My case was before his pushes on Creeps to claim so no. Convincing/forcing LUV to out you was however a factor in suspecting him.

Why didn't you comment on the possibility of me pushing a lynch through on you?

I wasn't of the impression you'd read through yet. If you have read up and still suspect me I can only hope to dissuade you and that enough town disagrees.

[havingfitz]

I'm town. Stop pushing a mislynch for what?
Busy RL day. If I'm still alive in the morning I'll be available to discuss further.
zzzzzzzzz

[havingfitz]

Nacho...talk to me. Since you essentially kick started this wagon on me. How am I scum and how am I a better lynch than some of the other candidates?

Granted if town is going to have a mislynches it's better to get it out of the way D1 but I'd like to contribute through a few days at least. It's in your best interests.

Preview edit. Ffs.

I'm a jailkeeper

[havingfitz]

Busy rl ... will respond by 1130

[havingfitz]

Gg town.
Thanks mod.