DEFCON Mafia 4.0 - СЛАВА РОССИИ МАТЕРИ

[mastina]

Oh fuck.
I was supposed to draw scum this game.

This is DEFCON MAFIA. You're supposed to be a TROLL.
I don't know how to troll as town! Shit!
Uh...don't suppose someone here can teach me?

VOTE: Total War
That's the troll thing to do, right?

[mastina]

Is spamposting part of trolling as town?
I mean, that's the impression that I get.
So I suppose it's at this point I can mention random facts about my life. Right now, I'm actually only online because I've written a song, and now I want to record it, but my damn mom won't stop doing things which create noise that would interfere with a proper recording. (Not to mention, serve as a distraction.) I really want to record that thing, too. Especially if I drew scum.
Which I didn't.

Part of trolling as town is complaining you didn't roll scum, right?

[mastina]

Hmm, I should probably read the thread.

But that wouldn't be a troll thing to do.

[mastina]

I'll be fully honest, I'm expecting to be nuked the moment it's an option and I'll be thoroughly disappointed if this game actually requires ~effort~.

That's not the game *I* signed up for!

[mastina]

Mastin's scum.

Well yes, but sadly I'm not MAFIA.

[mastina]

Shit, that's a SK claim.
Um.

Not MAFIA or SERIAL KILLER.

[mastina]

(To be actually serious for a second: I actually was going to try a new scumhunting method for this game, but the method I had in mind only works with a singular scumteam. This game openly has a serial killer, and a serial killer would throw off my new technique. That wouldn't have been a problem if I had drawn serial killer--which I actually was kinda hoping for, been a long time since I've been third party and I was looking forward to the challenge--but since I didn't, it would. It also wouldn't have been a problem if I had drawn scum, obviously, but if I had drawn scum I'd be doing...well, exactly what I'm doing right now, anyway.)

[mastina]

Fun factoid tho.

I am policy against vigs.
I signed up for a game where we do nothing but vig.
If I nuke someone, I am scum because I would never vig anyone.
If I defend myself from being nuked, I am scum because seriously, nobody deploys missile silos in defense mode except for scum who fear being lolvigged.
So basically, I'm scum no matter what!

[mastina]

I mean people who've seen me recently might even be able to guess what this new technique was going to be.
There aren't many things which can be ruined by a serial killer in scumhunting, after all.

The moment I drew town was the moment I knew I needed to go, "Fuck it. Not bothering with this shit."
Because, yeah. I had this whole plan worked out. I would sit in the background. I would be all silent. I would be around often enough that people wouldn't notice the lurking, but I wouldn't draw attention to myself because when I want to be, I actually am really good at blending into the background. But nope, not gonna do that.

[mastina]

Also my dad is an asshole, just ranting about that right here and now, he knows that I have misophonia specific to his eating but he's eating literally

right

next to me and headphones only do so much to drown out the sound and ow my eardrums so prolly not gonna hang around for long.

[mastina]

are you talking to yourself, mastin

I believe we established that long ago!

[mastina]

do people read mastins posts?

I believe we also established this long ago!

[mastina]

So you had a 2/3 shot of your plan being entirely ruined and effectively ruining the game for you?

No, 1/3. I coulda been scum, plan would've held, just modified. I coulda been the SK, plan would've held beautifully. Only drawing town fucked over the fun of the lurking strategy, but who said anything about the ruined plan ruining the game?

I'm basically shitposting right now. That's not exactly ruining the game for ME.

(I'll have to apologize postgame though.)

[mastina]

Btw I actually have gained reads in spite of not reading the first few pages. People here feel ridiculously transparent. (Well not all, I'll never claim to read one or two of the players in here, but some legit are seriously scum or obviously town.)
The main issue I'm having here is on whether I should tell you or not.
Because while telling you is technically pro-town...it also ruins the mood, kills the fun, and is an actual ~town~ thing to do and thus not the TROLL thing to do.

[mastina]

mastin, can you talk a little about any kind of thoughts you have wrt LLD scumreading you here?

Oh there's absolutely nothing wrong with her scumreading me.
I expected to die early, at the hands of town, the moment I started posting. I condemned myself to that fate because I decided, "What the hell. It's Defcon mafia. Playing it seriously is missing the fucking point of playing." Meaning I'll die, and it'll be early, and it'll be mostly town doing so and they will be absolutely justified in having done so.

It also means that if I actually did bother to give a damn and give reads, they'd be ignored because I'm playing like a fucking village idiot right now so when I die they'll go "she deserved it", "she was asking for it", and so on and they'll be absolutely right to have done so. (Which again, is why I'm apologizing in advance. If I was wrong in my decision to not take this game seriously, I'll accept full blame, full consequences, for having ruined it for others who did.)

But all that said.

If you want to know what my stance on LLD is?

Let me say it right here and right now:
When LLD endgames you, I'll be the first to say "I fucking told you so", because this is me, telling you so. She's scum.

[mastina]

Can you maybe try to articulate your read on LLD a little more clearly? Is it just tone/gut? Or are there specific posts/points/stances that you're taking issue with?

The answer is yes.

LLD is scum because she broadcasted her alignment as bright as a neon sign saying, "HAHAHA, FUCK YOU ALL I'M GOING TO WIN THIS GAME AND YOU ARE GONNA

ENJOY

ME WINNING THE GAME."

[mastina]

Question to Firebringer.

How exactly do you keep this up?

It honestly feels pretty exhausting for me to do. Like, I feel like I should be replying to more stuff with I dunno, a gif or something, spamming youtube videos, the like, but nothing is easily coming to mind.

I feel like the "sit back and laugh" part is easy enough, but the continuous posting part is harder. How do you pull it off in games?

[mastina]

The fact that LLD scumreading you did not spawn a self referential wall is very worrisome

Well the only reference I have on hand for what I'm doing is Left 4 Dead mafia. Which is pretty common knowledge to...basically this entire playerlist. There's not much to talk about in that regard. I have trolled as scum. As far as I can remember (could be mistaken), I have not trolled as town. It's a pretty simple formula there, no?

[mastina]

mastina are you a jester

Depends.

Personality, or alignment?

[mastina]

Literally who are you and where did you hide mastins body

Well I did make that post a while back where I publicly admitted I'm not the real mastin...

[mastina]

How do you wall post all the time and not see most of your posts are going to go unread?

That implies I expect people to read my walls!

The secret is I expect people to ignore me.

That way, when I'm proven right I can be all smug about it and point out how they should have followed me!

[mastina]

What I am trying to say is that you are obvscum

Well yes I am but I'm sadly not mafia.
Or the serial killer.

[mastina]

Why are you being a ham

I mean, I just went about telling you how people won't read my posts, and you're a fine demonstration of this, because if you had, you wouldn't need to ask!

I'm being a ham because I am not taking this game seriously.

[mastina]

What I am trying to say is that you are obvscum

Well yes I am but I'm sadly not mafia.
Or the serial killer.

Bit of a tangent here, but fully digressing, I typically don't really consider SKs to be scum anyway.

[mastina]

Pagetop?

[mastina]

(I swear I won't do that again. I'm supposed to be trolling, not being intentionally obnoxious. Sorry.)

[mastina]

Mastin if your seriously not taking game serious why are you making ridiculously long posts?

Now whoever said taking the game seriously and making wallposts were synonymous?

[mastina]

(I swear I won't do that again. I'm supposed to be trolling, not being intentionally obnoxious. Sorry.)

(And no, the two are not synonymous.)

[mastina]

(Basically trolling is in good spirits and fun and the point of a fucking Defcon game. Being obnoxious is annoying and gets in the way of being fun and the aim is for the former, not the latter.)

[mastina]

Untrod you missed a

Vote: mastina

or two I think.

Actually, he gave 69.
I'd say that's about right.

[mastina]

(Yes I did count the votes.)

[mastina]

(I mean, technically I did cheat a little, there were nine votes per line except the first and the last, so I did basic math of 9 * 6 and then counted those on the first and last rows, so it's not a 100% guaranteed accurate number of 69, but I'm fairly sure if you did manually count them out it WOULD come out to be 69 votes.)

[mastina]

So many broken hearts and we're not even starting the game yet.

What a wondrous way to begin.

[mastina]

I think mastina is faking a troll ham attitude to cover her ass

Wouldn't be the first time, would it?

[mastina]

(I did say I was bad at trolling.)

[mastina]

i want to see the mastina i know.

The mastina you want is already here. I mean, I'm PMing reads as of this quote to the mod, because I'm not sharing them in here (I didn't think it felt appropriate), but I already told the mod yesterday (and told the mod to post said thing to spoiled players because I'll be pissed if that wasn't shared) exactly what I am doing.

I know you're town here (so I'm not worried you're missing it), but I was honestly a bit surprised.

Of all the people here, I thought you'd be the first one to figure it out.

I AM the mastina you know.

Reconcile that with what I've posted thusfar.

[mastina]

i imagine she probably planned on trolling before opening her role PM.

My first post would've been identical as scum, yeah. Probably not as a serial killer, but as scum, definitely. And some of the complaining would be similar. But at some point, I'd have switched into the serial killer plan, modified for the new alignment. The trolling was something I had in store purely for drawing town.

[mastina]

Doesn't matter, it's not nearly as clever as she seems to think it is and needs to be brought to an abrupt end.

I respectfully disagree.

It is rather clever, you just have to know the full picture which you either don't or are pretending not to.

Now whether it was something you think I should've done, that's a different matter, you're free to disagree and I already said I may owe you an apology, but it's clever regardless of whether it should be acceptable.

[mastina]

theres no way mastina survives more than like a day regardless of my read on her

This is a given.

[mastina]

I think mastin is fully aware shes gonna get bombed quite early on (though probably not in the same way she thinks)

If it's any way other than by town, I would be absolutely shocked. Not QUITE sure how it'll happen though. It's literally a cointoss between nuke and lynch. I did make a personal bet (which I PMed to the mod), but I'm not going to share it in here. Suffice to say I will die in the exact way I think UNLESS it is by scum.

[mastina]

is the scumteam really nahdia mcmenno ut????

Given time I can read McMenno. Too little content yet for me to be sure, but he's solidly in the middle of my list.
Nahdia's lowish on my list, but I wouldn't place them as my top priority for lynching. (Probably a good investigate though if we can ensure that there's no way to fuck with the investigation.) They're actually fifth-lowest on my incomplete, not yet quite accurate scumread list I have. (Any guesses for who the four stronger scumreads are?)

I have a feeling you're right about UT though.

[mastina]

Oh also I'm going to sheep LLD's read on GICE. I think unless they're both scum, she's prob telling the truth about that read regardless of her alignment.

Well LLD is scum, the question is whether GreyICE is or not. He's in dead null territory for me right now unfortunately, so no help there.

[mastina]

so you're saying there's some grand scheme behind everything you're doing?

No shit, sherlock.
I'm MASTINA.
Of course I have a fucking plan.
That doesn't, mind you, mean it's a GOOD plan.
But I always HAVE a plan.

that doesn't match up with what you said earlier in which you basically went "ha ha, I am clueless person, I don't know how to troll and shitpost so i'll just muck around and have fun "

The two aren't mutually exclusive.

[mastina]

This is DEFCON MAFIA. You're supposed to be a TROLL.
I don't know how to troll as town! Shit!
Uh...don't suppose someone here can teach me?

^ mastina was this genuine?

Of course it wasn't!
I explicitly told you that I would've posted the same thing as scum.
By implication, that means I planned to say it before entering the thread.
In other words: faked it. (Not sure what I would've done if I drew serial killer, but it'd have been something different.)

Now mind you.

The statement still stands.

I absolutely don't know how to troll as town. I basically am trying to be a shitty Firebringer copy.
But all the same, in spite of the truth behind the statement, the statement was fabricated in advance of the game.

[mastina]

arthur is town

For the curious, I told the mod already this, but basically...
Ser Arthur Dayne could literally claim scum, in-thread, and broadcast exactly how and why he is scum and what he is doing as scum...and I wouldn't believe him. He is my strongest townread, and as far as I'm concerned if he's scum we already lost.

[mastina]

Why do you want to copy me?

Well I needed to do something to troll, because Defcon mafia demands some town trolling (it's a quite literal, "FUCK YOU ALL" type game when you get down to it), and me posting like YOU is...pretty much the best idea I could come up with for trolling? There's a pretty stark contrast between my normal style and yours, so me trying to be you is...at least a little trollish.

At least that was the idea.

[mastina]

@LLD

– why did you address hiplop’s “I want to nuke MoI” with chastisement of him instead of asking him why?

There's an easy answer for this.

[mastina]

Is it that you're a useless sack of shit?
I like that answer and I know most people agree with me!

This is not a town player addressing a scumread, by the way.

This is a player addressing a player they know to be town.
In a normal game I'd also add it'd serve as an attempt to discredit me, but since in this game I'm not playing like normal I can instead say it's an unnecessary comment in general.

Everyone here already knows that what I have done is shitty.
Commenting on it is ridiculously old news. Nobody needed to do it. Least of all, LLD who had prior advocated for roping me.

[mastina]

FYI I'm not going for missile silo

Nor am I.

[mastina]

Fuck it.
LLD is scum.
UT is scum.
Ircher is scum.
Zito is scum.

The last scum is harder to determine, as is the terrorist. But RC is on my shortlist.
As is Vaxkiller.

I do have about an equal number of townreads, but I don't want to share those.

I just can't hold back from these, though.

[mastina]

why
is
rc
scum

He might not be!
He's just on the shortlist. The slot just below Nahdia. (Nahdia is seventh, RC is sixth, Vaxkiller is fifth.)

[mastina]

Vaxkiller have made two posts, both of them NAI.

And therein lies your problem.

There were some definitive alignment clues in Vaxkiller's posts.

These clues were not, mind you, particularly solid! He's on the shortlist. Not on the scumlist. What was there was indicative of scum, but not strongly enough to BE scum, not off of just two posts anyway.

[mastina]

i don't know if i agree with any of these mastina, maybe rc?

The beautiful thing about mafia games, especially NUKE THEM ALL ones, is you're allowed to be wrong!

[mastina]

Oh and by the way, SpyreX is pretty low on the list as well. He's at just above Nahdia.

[mastina]

Explain your reasons

That would be the town thing to do, wouldn't it?

[mastina]

What other kinds of lists do you have?

I basically INVENTED listmaking.

So, whatever form of list you'd want, really. Townlist, scumlist, reads list, town to scum list (my default), hybridized reads/town to scum list...

Now the question is, what kind of lists would I actually share.

I might be willing to share that. I've got about equal numbers of townreads to scumreads in about equal yet opposite strengths. (SAD is my strongest townread and is just as strong if not stronger than my LLD scumread, Cephrir is my second-strongest townread and is just as strong if not stronger than my UT scumread, etc.) Though, it'd need some updating. I made it like twenty pages ago.

Also I have to admit I don't quite have the number of townreads I'd prefer. Ideally I'd have double the townreads to my scumreads, but I don't.

[mastina]

Ser Arthur Dayne
Cephrir
Cheetory
Nukebringer

Spiffeh
Reck
Accountant

Errantparabola
GiF
Something_smart
MoI
McMenno
Fate
GreyICE
hiplop

SpyreX
Nahdia
RC
Vaxkiller

Zito
Ircher
UT
LLD

Thereabouts.

[mastina]

mastin why is Nukebringer so high on your list?

Because no matter how much you might want to policy-nuke the slot, it won't change their alignment. (Takes one to know one!) This is Firebringer's towngame. Very, very blatantly so.

Whether you like him or not, you're going to have to deal with that. If you want him gone, sure, nuke him. But if you want to nuke scum, you're aiming in the wrong place and once he flips you'll see as much.

[mastina]

Zito,ut,lld scum huh this should be good

I kinda wish my reads were all true but I'm expecting at least one wrong in there. I'm not THAT good.

[mastina]

Sucks that the time mastin seems to fully believe in me is the time she's gonna be too dead to work with me

Hey, it takes 48 hours for a nuke to land so you've got all of now and 48 hours into the game to work with me!

Maybe, just maybe, you should do something with that time.

[mastina]

What the hell.

I very specifically put in literally EVERY troop, in an order of most to least.
Given how many troops there were, I shoulda gotten at least ONE of them, especially since I figured...well.
Yaknow.

You'd be a bunch of nuke-happy gun-toting 'MURICANS.

Apparently not!

No Espionage. No Battleship. No Eavesdrop. No Aircraft Carrier. No Air Base. No Radar. No Dead Hand (my name for the failsafe). No Submarine. No Covert Ops Team. No Strategic Missile Defense. No Fighter. No Fallout Shelter. No Counterintelligence.

Literally EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. Of them got picked. By someone in the game.
Because if so much as ONE of them had been left unpicked, I should have gotten something!

[mastina]

Okay so what's different about me now then when I am scum?

LOTS of stuff. Like, I'm not quite "bet the game on it" levels of confident I know your meta.

But...

I'm pretty sure I know your meta.

And by your meta, I'm pretty sure this is your towngame.

[mastina]

How the fuck is Mastina higher than RC?

It's called giving a morsel of thought to the game beyond "I don't like this person".

[mastina]

By the way--yes. That means I got a nuke. Not willingly, mind you! I submitted things in the order I just listed them, most valuable to least valuable as I saw them. And I got absofuckinglutely NONE of them.
Oh, and:
VOTE: Lady Lambdadelta.

[mastina]

On the bright side:
Since we know 13 players didn't choose the nukes, we can probably safely assume most if not all of the scum were vying for troops.

On the negative side:
Since we know the scum most likely were vying for troops, that means we could potentially have six scum having stolen the assets the town was to have.

So keep that in mind.

[mastina]

(Still bitter, though. I mean, I made it very clear that I didn't want to nuke and I thought defense mode missiles were an absolute waste. I therefore also made it abundantly clear that I wanted to take a troop. And literally half the fucking game decided to take troops, in spite of this game being the FUCK YOU ALL NUKE THE BASTARDS game. Some of these players announced their intention to do so. Most of them did not.)

[mastina]

(Also I still totally maintain that the Failsafe shoulda been called the Dead Hand. It is a more appropriate name in EVERY function: role, flavor, etc. But I digress.)

[mastina]

(And for those who aren't as in the know about WHY it shoulda been called Dead Hand...The article is literally called "Dead Hand (

nuclear war

)".)

[mastina]

Also, we probably shouldn't run around claiming silo for the lols... this is still a mafia game

Not everyone should, but for some people, it's mandatory.

Myself included.

[mastina]

Cuz scum!Vax isnt any worse at the game than town!Vax
Pedit: WHY????? You arent nuking me anyway so.....

holy shit nuke this

Why nuke what you can lynch?
VOTE: Ircher.

That being said I fully intend to lolhammer Vaxkiller if he ever gets to L-1. Just 'cause.
Plan appropriately.

[mastina]

Eh, this wagon's larger.
VOTE: Untrod Tripod.
Scum are scum, doesn't matter which we lynch.

[mastina]

Is this the order in which you asked?

Explicitly so, yes, exactly as I fucking said. Cop and Doc are top picks for obvious reasons. Eavesdrop is conditional on luck and on successfully interpreting messages in topics. Scum know about it and are going to try and mask their posting style as if in an alt, but I thought I'd still be able to get good info because scum can't control WHAT leaks. Roleblocker is conditional on blocking scum: powerful, but no cop. Airbase is basically a super-bulletproof. I didn't see myself as a realistic nightkill, but there was always the possibility. Tracker is about as useful as a roleblocker under normal circumstances: its strength is conditional, and not quite as useful to me as in a normal game because it cannot see nightkills, thus its lowered priority. The fucking dead hand is a vengekill/bomb hybrid.

Below that point was the zero fucks given point. Submarine is just a silent nuke, so why bother with it when a missile silo does exactly the same thing? Covert Ops Team is a roleblock for missile silos: useless. Strategic Missile Defense is a roleblock for nukes specifically: even more useless. Fighter just tells you if someone has troops or not. I thought useless, though APPARENTLY since all the troops are in play, not so much. Fallout shelter makes me nuke immune. Why would I want that when I was literally asking to be nuked? Counterintelligence is a tailor power: zero town usage.

[mastina]

So [mastina] – sell me on you not being scum.

Why.

I said WAYYY BACK at 225 that if you didn’t get your top choice you were very likely getting a Nuke.

Yeah, and? I put fucking COP first. I put fucking DOCTOR second. I really wanted those ones. I didn't get them.

On top of this please claim specifically what your first and second choices were.

I will refrain from namecalling which would call into question your intelligence and instead simply settle on calling into question your reading comprehension as the list was explicitly a most to least.

[mastina]

You have no idea what you're doing.

And you lose any credence of knowing anything about me by making this claim.

I'm MASTINA.

I know EXACTLY what I'm doing.

You just claimed without any reason whatsoever.

Oh gee, I gave the town knowledge they didn't have before--all thirteen troops are in play--and claimed my list order, when everyone wants me dead. Golly, that sure is no reason whatsoever to claim, yes it is! There's surely no POSSIBLE reason to claim and give the town that info when you're a top pick for being nuked.

You expect us to believe you're absent-minded enough to not understand how the draft system works.

Quite the opposite. I knew exactly how it works. If there was ANY power someone didn't say they really wanted...I would have gotten it.
But THIRTEEN players put in a unique choice as being at, or near, their top choice. One player put cop first, no surprise. Another doctor. No surprise. Eavesdrop I figured I wouldn't get but I put it up there anyway. Someone probably not town put roleblocker first. Someone probably the terrorist put ascetic/BP first. Someone probably scum put nerfed-tracker first. I knew I wasn't getting submarine and we know at least two people put it first. Someone put covert ops team high on their priority. Someone put strategic missile defense high on their priority. Someone hopefully town valued fighter more than I did. Someone either vain or scum put fallout shelter high. And I knew I wasn't getting counterintelligence because fuck getting counterintelligence, but I included it as a test of honesty essentially: if *I* got it, then Nahdia would be a fucking liar.

Anything after the second pick is a waste of time.

If everyone took this stance, and there was a troop nobody wanted, guess what?

MY stance. MY policy. Would have landed me one.

But either at least one other person took a similar policy and got better luck...
...Or EVERY troop had a player who valued it VERY highly. (The more likely of the two.)

And that was information good to have, but it's not like I was aiming for it.

I was explicitly aiming for a fucking COP SHOT.
Because if there's one thing I know how to use well.
It's a fucking cop.

I didn't get my top choice.
But I wasn't going to leave it there.
I wanted to make sure I got SOMETHING.
That something ended up as information: all thirteen troops are in play, and were valued.

[mastina]

Was there ever any nonzero chance of mastin ever being a nightkill?

Sure.
Before I spoke.

After?

Haha fuck no I knew that my posting was basically a gigantic neon sign saying "DARE YOU".

[mastina]

Sub is 100% must have material.

The only use town has for sub is to keep it out of the hands of scum.
It's the default fucking power of the game. You nuke someone. Well guess what? So does a fucking missile silo. So does the

damn "vanilla" power

. The use in the submarine is that it's anonymous and can be used slightly before a nuke can. (Two phases?) No shit I put zero stock in that power. I got it anyway even though I didn't want it!

Plus, Accountant already said Sub was their top choice so I valued powers like, you know, COP over a vig.
Cops I get guilties with.
Vigs I shoot town with.

[mastina]

My understanding is that her objective was to ensure every troop was taken and grab any troop that was not taken by submitting all of them. In that case, no reason not to.

^Really, not that hard to understand. It's a basic damn concept. If I can't get this, I'll try for that. If I can't get that, I'll try for a third. Then fourth. Then fifth. Sixth, seventh, eighth, ninth, tenth, twelfth, and if all that fails, I'll get the thirteenth and last one.

Get none?

Well then every troop is in the game and the people who got them wanted them more than I did.

[mastina]

hmmm I take that back there might only be 1-2 scum on the UT wagon, being Ircher and Reck

Try Ircher and Zito, but yes.
I'm aware of my company on the wagon.

I'm also aware I lack scumreads on the Vaxkiller wagon.

But I'm saving voting Vaxkiller for a hammer.

[mastina]

Calm down mastina.

No.
I'm having a shitty day and I'll be as much of a shitty player as I want to be.

Plus you're saying this because you're scum so.

[mastina]

makes an attempt to act as though she's contributing and wants to garner townreads for being all CASUAL!!! and JOKEY!!! is what mastina is doing

You got it backwards there.

It's actually INCREDIBLY transparent what I'm doing here.

Everything.

I had a plan for EVERY outcome.
EVERY troop.
I'll admit I didn't exactly have the best of plans for not getting one at all, but even there I did have some backup plans.

[mastina]

Basically mafblack is the only correct skin

Mafblack is a fucking cancer; mafsilver is the one true race.

[mastina]

MafBlack is the best because it is the default skin

You clearly don't know your mafiascum history.
Mafsilver was the default since the site's conception, essentially.

It is the superior skin.

[mastina]

someone remind me again why I should not put papa zito in the same category as mcmenno and hiplop

Because McMenno and hiplop deserve better than to be put into the same tier as Zito. They're at least on rung higher, if not two.

[mastina]

If you took even a cursory glance at any of the three previous games, you'd know this.

Wait, we were supposed to?



(But more seriously. I know of those games more by reputation than anything else. Some times, random events from them would be linked--titles, scummy noms, etc. And from those, I would read random snippets of the threads. Really, more of a skim than proper reading. I read random parts, sure, but in those parts, there were no mention of roles or if there were only minimally so. All the parts *I* read had to do with HAHAHAHA FUCK YOU ALL I GOT A NUKE.)

One is taken off the top for the Terrorist, so let's make it 12 troops.

Wrong. The terrorist gets a FREE copy of a troop. That is, they get a troop and then if they chose to take a troop, can get another, and are the ONLY player in the game who have this ability.

But thanks for giving the scumteam extra information.

What information, that I don't have troops?
Oh yeah, that's really helpful, like me having troops makes me a fucking nightkill, right?

[mastina]

[basically a scumclaim]

I mean.
I could say "nuke this shit".

But what I really want is for us to just lynch Ircher.

I'm on UT because the wagon's larger.
(I also don't really support the Vaxkiller wagon right now.)

[mastina]

McMenno has so far done nothing constructive AT ALL this game imo. Why do you think he's town?

It's too early to tell for sure, actually. He's not town.
But the reason he's not scum is experience.

Have you

played

with McMenno before?

I have.
Tell me, what's the difference between here, here, here, here, here, here, here, and here.

Hint: 2 games scum, 6 games town. Which are which?

His posts aren't identical as both alignments, sure.
But they're pretty damn similar.

[mastina]

Actually I find that one funny because GICE mentioned the exact statement on thread.

Then unless the statement in the mafia PT predates the statement in-thread, the statement in the mafia PT was probably used in direct reference (I can't find the right word--not quite 'in humor', not quite 'sarcastic', not quite 'parody', but in reference) to the GreyICE quote.

Which players do you think would make that sort of quote?
I kinda think that'd be a UT thing to do. He'd be the type to...oh, for lack of a better word, parody something.
I'm wondering who else could do that.

What that actually tells me though is that GreyICE is unlikely to be scum.

[mastina]

mastin what is your avatar

It's my character, Ruby, drawn by me.
Admittedly I did a pretty shitty job of doing the avatar. I wanted one by the eighth (the day I created this account), but I wasn't even CLOSE to drawing the page that contained that image. So with basically no experience with the program, I rushed to create something that would at least be somewhat passable.

I intend to redraw it at a higher quality at some later time.

[mastina]

mastin are you twon

No, I am not twon. I am, however, town.

[mastina]

I was gonna say cheeky bastards mimic me

Cheeky bastard! That's a fine word for what I was looking for. Butyeah. The scum in the PT probably said that line to be a cheeky bastard mimicking GreyICE.

As a result, I don't think GreyICE is scum.

[mastina]

Anyway I still support a Vaxkiller lynch.

I don't, and here's why.

What if, say, Vaxkiller was a cop instead? What if we knew that the roles capable of consistently fucking with said cop were gone?
That would leave a scum-Vaxkiller forced to consistently give accurate results, narrowing down the POE pool...
...Or force the scum to kill a town-Vaxkiller.

Vaxkiller claimed, and has used, his role in the most pro-town manner possible.
So where do you draw the line?

At a certain level, the mechanical benefits of a player > the play shortcomings of a player. ESPECIALLY when it comes to an automatic role. Vaxkiller cannot fuck up by targeting a player nobody wants targeted, for instance. Vaxkiller cannot claim to be blocked.

Now Vaxkiller was on my shortlist, sure.
But he wasn't actually on my scumlist.
I thought it was possible he was scum. It still is possible.
However, it is less likely than it was before. While it is not impossible for Vaxkiller to have been coached into taking that role as scum. While it is not impossible for Vaxkiller to be faking the results of the role. (Doubtful.) The explanation which makes the most sense to me is that Vaxkiller did indeed take the role.

Plus, his claim makes sense. Cop first means some third player got it. (Cop was my first.) Espionage second for him explains why I didn't get Espionage when it was my third. I buy what he's selling, and I say: let him live. See what the scum do. We know he doesn't have nukes. We also know he is not immune to nuking. We also know that his power if legitimate is a potential threat to the scumteam. So fuck lynching him, there are much better people we could eliminate D1. We can reconsider come D4. Not a day sooner.

[mastina]

What do you say to the idea that scum would want town to have Eavesdropper? As scum, I would prioritize the troops much differently. Further, scum had no idea that Toog/Vax would be in a situation to claim D1.

While I disagree with the premise of scum not knowing Vaxkiller would need to claim (he was being suspected well before Defcon 3, meaning people had time to predict the obvious), I agree with the conclusion that Vaxkiller is more likely town.

But that's at least in part because you're white knighting and I don't think that's defending a scumbuddy. Vaxkiller if scum isn't worth defending from a scumteam's point of view. So, Vaxkiller being defended by scum is being defended by players who know Vaxkiller is flipping town.

[mastina]

If we let this go what's stopping us from letting anyone who roleclaims go

Subjective measures: psychology. Objective measures: usage.
What I mean by that is, it depends on the player, and how they use and justify their role. Vaxkiller's usage and justification are reasonable from town: it makes sense, and fits with the facts we have at hand. It makes extra sense coming from a player like Vaxkiller as well. It cannot, of course, actually clear Vaxkiller, but if you ask which seems more likely, town or scum-who-were-coached-step-by-step-on-what-to-say-and-do, the town option is in fact simpler. (Not necessarily correct, but simpler all the same.) And given the choice between a simple explanation of being town, versus a convoluted explanation for being scum, I'm probably going to assume the former until I have a much better reason to believe the latter.

Now then, for other players, we can force the same standards on it. Who that player is: their general personality, along with their experience. Knowing them, what makes sense for them to pick? What power was picked: is it a town power, a scum power, or equal to both? Usage: how have they utilized it? In a good way, a bad way, or a way equal to both? Does that usage hold consistency with their personality? And so on and so forth.

This is not letting all roleclaimers go unscathed.
This is letting

this specific

roleclaimer go

temporarily

, until such a time as we can later reevaluate.

Vaxkiller does not get a free pass for the whole game.
But given my read on the situation (Vaxkiller is being defended by people likely to be scum), my stance on the matter is that right now, Vaxkiller is more than likely town.

[mastina]

VOTE: Something_Smart

By the way, this was some pages ago, but I wanted it noted here all the same since it's a good reminder:
RedCoyote basically said that Ircher was a fine candidate for being scum...and voted someone else. I don't remember who, but I remember thinking it was a player less likely to be scum (could be mistaken).

Ircher, similarly, noted RC as being someone who was likely scum...and then voted that same person. (McMenno?)

I'll have to track down that exact spot, because I'm surprised nobody else noticed that.

[mastina]

Hmm, looking at a dual iso of the two, not sure I can quite pinpoint anything. That being said, it did get me to these.

This. I don't know if I'm going to vote Vax, but I see nothing worthy of defense thus far.
---

If my post is a "lie" then we need to lynch you for lying as well.

I've been trying to fairly evaluate this statement, and it just doesn't read to me like an honest town-sided attack. It reads most logically like desperation. This is probably the first non-weak point against townVax. He's reaching and I don't get the feeling like it's an honest reach but rather him trying to fumble together some sort of attack.
---

Lol
VOTE: Untrod
Sound case by Reck.

This lends support to what McMenno said earlier. This is clearly a piggyback vote, and I don't like it. Ircher is very obviously trying to do whatever he can to distract from the Vax wagon. I'd have felt much better about this vote had Ircher shown engagement with UT and/or Reck.
---

UT is basically trying to act like SpyreX and he sees the funhappyjoketimes as his way to blend in but spyspy is actually making real thoughts & stuff underneath it all so UT is just wearing a shitty Party City knockoff SpyreX mask

meanwhile I'm just glad you actually feel confident about a read in a mafia game, even if it's wrong
have you considered that maybe, just maybe, I just have a deepseated desire to nuke shit and the beginning of the game was entirely bullshit from everyone and I just didn't care
but nooooooo you want to be Mr Party Pooper and vote no to nukes all day every day

This is a cop out.
---

McMenno and ErrantParabola are still voting for Ircher. Would be willing to bet I could get minimum one scum flip by nuking both.

I can ride with this.
---

Um what? McMenno has substance in his posts? Look at that ISO and tell me McMenno has one tiny spec of substance. It is Lol-worthy that this even came out of anyone’s keyboard period but the Night and Day between surgeon-like dissection of Vax and “Herp-A-Derp McMenno’s got substance” has to trigger alarm bells people.

This is a solid point, but it needs to be filed under 'L' for Let's Cross The Bridge When We Get There.

Random notes: SAD vs LLD is town on town, I think.
Townie vibes from SAD, Accountant, Reck, and Cheetory
Scummy vibes from Vax, Ircher, McMenno
Reck's case on UT is :goodposting:.

Since we have time, I'm going to VOTE: McMenno. I would still say this slot is our best bet at nailing scum/terrorist, and I'd be happy to engage with anyone that is open to joining me. I think Vax is a decent wagon, however. I will not try to stand in the way of it and am very much open to supporting it.

^A little egregious, no?

[mastina]

Oh also we can only guess who as scum would value which troops over others so this discussion is pointless.

Half-true.

As a

team

, we cannot guess.

As

individual players

, we can. Some scum players are going to value certain roles far more reliably than other scum players. So you might not be able to say, "Scum would pick this", but what you

can

do is, saaaaaaaaaaaaay, "LLD as scum would pick this".

[mastina]

Oh yeah he didn't even put Eavesdropper first
Now I care even less about role arguments!

You're looking at that backwards.
Him not putting Eavesdropper first is

more

reason to care about role arguments.

Not less.

[mastina]

Has no one considered Vax fakeclaiming to draw out a disruptive role to scum?

If Vaxkiller isn't the eavesdropper, the eavesdropper fucking counterclaims no questions asked.
Dead scum > role that is marginally helpful. Period. End of discussion.

And we know the role's in the game too. As someone's top-or-second pick, because if it wasn't then *I* would have gotten it.
Vaxkiller fits the profile.

[mastina]

BUT who are the people that usually post in all smalls?

A scumteam this game would have to be utter morons to be using their normal posting style in the mafia PT. So don't expect that to be useful. Other things are going to be more reliable indicators.

[mastina]

I can roll with UT, but why aren't you interested in SS?

Because scum(reads) keep trying to direct me there.

And I'm just like.
lolno.

[mastina]

Was gonna save this 'til I caught up, but now's as good a time as any:
Ser Arthur Dayne
Cephrir
Cheetory
Nukebringer

Spiffeh
Reck
MoI
Accountant

Vaxkiller
Fate
GreyICE
Something_smart
Errantparabola
McMenno
GiF
hiplop

SpyreX
Nahdia

Zito
RC
Ircher
UT
LLD

[mastina]

^For the record: you can put a divide between Something_smart and Errantparabola.
Something_smart and above are on the town side of null.
Errantparabola and below are south of null.
McMenno, GiF, and hiplop are still nulls, just scummy nulls for a few select reasons.
Something_smart, GreyICE, Fate, and Vaxkiller all have reason to be town, but not quite enough where they'd appear in the above list.

Spiffeh, Reck, MoI, and Accountant are all townreads, but not quite enough strength behind them thanks to some doubts which keep them from being promoted.
It's not like SAD, Cephrir, Cheetory, or Nukebriker are squeaky clean, but the only doubts I have on them are FIRMLY paranoia-induced, and very obviously so. In a game of this caliber, they're the closest we've got to clean slated players.

[mastina]

Like is she off the table for any reason besides no one wants to read her posts?

Yeah.
It's called people actually read my posts.

[mastina]

I really don't get why so many people are scum reading her beyond "you're being bad and useless"

Hint: look at who most of those people are.

By now people have probably figured out more or less what I was doing, but to put things in simplest terms:
I'm not scumreading Accountant, because Accountant's response to me, from what I know of Accountant's personality, read as town. I'm not scumreading Cephrir, because Cephrir's response to me--in spite of him not recognizing what I was doing (normally a red flag)--was otherwise town, because I still saw him legitimately trying to figure out what the hell I was pulling. I'm not scumreading you, because I thought your handling of it was also in line with you as town. Probably others I'm forgetting on here, but you get the idea.
I'm scumreading LLD, UT, RC, Ircher, and Zito in part because of their response to me. Each for different reasons. And each for reasons beyond that (that's far from the only thing).

In other words, psychological profiling.
The people who are scumreading me are either the people who would do so as town because they're naive (see also, Accountant), or are people who are VERY incredibly likely to be scum. (LLD, UT, RC, Zito. Ircher's not scumreading me anymore, but his response was scum anyway. RC may or may not have scumread me, but regardless, he's painting me in a negative light, when no fucking duh, I'm mastina I had a plan.)

[mastina]

What in that post makes you think he's scum?

Theory talk disguised as game content, which was also wishy-washy, largely pointless, and inconsistent. Plus, for someone who is trying to say, "trying to get a lynch he believes to be easy to pull off", Ircher is going after...
...McMenno, who is. Oh yeah. Guess what?

A lynch Ircher believes will be easy to pull off.

It's hypocritical. It's defensive. It's an overly long justification for his actions which basically amounts to not much of anything.

[mastina]

A pet peeve of mine is when someone claims without any provocation or reason for doing so.

Sure.

Provocation was absent.
Reason was not.

[mastina]

Untrod Tripod [7] - mastina, Papa Zito, Cheetory6, Ser Arthur Dayne, xRECKONERx, Nukebringer, SpyreX
Something_Smart [7] - GuyInFreezer, Untrod Tripod, RedCoyote, Cephrir, Accountant, MagnaofIllusion, Spiffeh
Vaxkiller [3] - GreyICE, Lady Lambdadelta, Fate
Ircher [2] - McMenno, ErrantParabola
McMenno [1] - Ircher
GuyInFreezer [1] - Something_Smart
SpyreX [1] - Vaxkiller
Not Voting [2] - hiplop, Nahdia

On the UT wagon: Zito the weakest of my scumreads. (That is, the one most likely to be wrong.)
And SpyreX, a potential scum candidate but not a high priority.
Four players I highly trust to be town.

On the Something_smart wagon: UT and RedCoyote, second and fourth(or even third) strongest scumreads. Along with GiF who I'm not feeling great about. There's four players I trust to be town (Cephrir, Accountant, MoI, and Spiffeh), but all of them are basically sheeping the wagon rather than having contributed meaningfully to it. (Well MoI might've, but most of those votes were explicitly sheep votes.)

Guess which wagon I trust more?

[mastina]

What are your thoughts of Something_Smart independent of the people pushing that case?

I honestly haven't read so much as a single Something_smart post.

No, dead serious.
I don't think I've read so much as a single one of them.

I honestly haven't bothered to and I don't think I will.

If you think that Something_smart's posts are going to contain anything that are solid towntells or solid scumtells, then...
...Just, lol.

He's a sort later kind of guy, but the fact he's getting so much pressure so early on for basically no fucking reason is making me just on policy alone read him as town. I might not have read HIS posts, but I've at least skimmed if not read the "cases" against him, and my thoughts on those were THOROUGHLY, "meh". As in, they did literally nothing at all to make me think the case was even pointing out anything remotely scummy. At all. So as far as I'm concerned. There's no good reason to lynch him. There's CERTAINLY no reason he should be lynched over players like LLD, UT, Ircher, and RC.

The fact that he is tied for top lynch at all should tell you exactly why he's not a good lynch candidate.

[mastina]

You're getting a fucking flashlight shined in your fucking face because I'm tired of let you slip through the fucking cracks.

Don't worry, I'm wearing sunglasses.

[mastina]

Do you think this kind of perspective is assisting the town in any manner? Y/N

Yesbutno.
Yes, recognizing that I am mastina and that I will do mastina things can be productive to the town, if they work with me in helping me get those things to where they are optimal. A sort of unspoken plan guarantee, a silent pact: "mastina is doing this thing. I think I see what it is, and I think I can help her".

No, writing mastina off as just being mastina and doing nothing about it is not helpful to the town. And that's what Cephrir was doing, which is the thing frustrating me about him. He's town here. He should have figured out what I was going for ages ago and synchronized with me. Instead he's not doing anything either way. So he's being useless, rather than useful.

I mean, he held half of it. "mastina is doing this thing." But he can't figure out what it is. Yet commenting on doing the thing isn't helpful. He should instead be focusing on, "now what could it be that she is doing?", figuring it out, and THEN going to, "Okay, finally got it, now I can help her."

[mastina]

So why am i scum mastin

You're not.
You're potentially scum. Basically gut. You've got a fair number of sections in your iso which I can see as scum. You don't give me townvibes to counter that. But I don't really have a scumread on you. Someone well south of null, but who isn't actively scumclaiming whenever they post. (See also: LLD, UT. Ircher and RC to lesser extents.) If my scumreads were wrong, you'd be near the top of the line to fill in the gap. You're also a fine candidate for being the terrorist. But you're not a top priority for me because you're not someone I currently truly believe to be scum. You're the type of player who would be an EXCELLENT cop target: a strong player, unlikely to die any time soon, whose alignment is heavily in question. I'd be copping you or Nahdia, in fact, if I had that power. But since I don't, well, cop's judgement.

[mastina]

DON'T WORRY TAKE A NUMBER IT'LL BE AWHILE BEFORE SHE DECIDES TO ANSWER.

Nah SpyreX gets an answer because there's actually a need to explain a read on him.

There's no such need for you.

[mastina]

I don't actually think she is being particularly toxic?

She's not, actually. This is pretty tame from her. It's actually pretty impressive, really.

I mean, her insults are pretty revealing about her drawing scum, but that's nothing new.

[mastina]

Mastin was always bad before but this game she's just kicked it up to new levels of terrible, and it makes me question what the motive for that ACTUALLY is, and I'm aware Mastin's given answer will be "I just want to troll" but Mastin seems to care a whole fucking lot for someone who is just trolling until they can nuke someone?

The justification for my actions lies in the mod's hand. I communicated them to him, and they'll be freely available to anyone who asks for them upon their death, at least they SHOULD be because that's what I specifically fucking asked him to do.
Suffice to say, though.

My answer is not "I just want to troll". I did not in fact go off the deep end. There's a plan. It is a very obvious one to those who have been paying attention. Subtlety has never been my thing. Like, ever.

[mastina]

Except you're not doing anything but posting like a shitter and now ignoring my actual question in favour of answering a question that

was not directed to you

.

I mean.
That's not what I'm doing.
But okay. Let's say you believe that.

This is harder to justify.

Number of times Mastin has addressed the lack of any kind of focus she's given certain scum reads?

I've been focusing quite a bit of attention on my scumreads. In particular the two I most want to lynch: UT and Ircher. Side of RC. You're my largest scumread, but I don't hold hope for lynching you, and I've got a nuke so I can just let that loose the moment we get to D3 and the only ways to stop me are by a nightkill or by the sub (which is most likely in scum's hands) or by mustering a lynch prior to that point.

Number of times Mastin has talked aboout how she's a bad player or some other self referential bullshit? Too many to count

Actually rather explicitly I've denied being a shitty player, and that the idea I would legit let myself be one is laughable. There's a method to my madness. Madness in said method, sure. I knew the moment I began this strategy there was inherent to it a risk exceeding this game. A small risk would be contained to just this game, but the plan I developed could have long-lasting consequences to me even AFTER this game has finished. I know what I'm doing though.

[mastina]

mastin played the exact same way as town in Signs and Void.

Did I?
Fuck! I thought there may have been a game I pulled this shit off in before.
I couldn't remember which game it was, though.

Was it really that game? I coulda sworn that was a game I just wasn't able to get quite coherent.

[mastina]

Also, she is going to get nuked on the first day of nukes, so there's not all that much point in me worrying about it

The best thing about failing to get a troop is that I get to nuke before I die.

You don't want me to nuke someone?

Yeah, well guess what.
You have to stop me before then.
That, or use a power on me of all people. Go waste that intercept and reveal you have it by stopping me. Or go stop my nukes with the special ops team and allow every other town player with nukes to have free reign.

You don't have the numbers to lynch me. I was iffy on that bit, I admit. I realized that I could have ticked off enough people that town players could policy-lynch me and when combined with town players misreading me, and scum who want me dead, there could have been enough. But seeing the practical effects in play, I've run the math. There aren't enough.

So. Submarine nuke.
Or scum nightkill.
Or powers.

Are the only ways to stop the nuke.
So have fun, LLD. You're dead D3.

[mastina]

But at least I fucking talk and interact.

I interact with anything worth interacting with. (And honestly, then some. I put in a lot of superfluous interactions which strictly speaking aren't necessary but which I do because I feel like it. This post among them.)

But shockingly, there's actually a lot fewer of those in a game than you would expect! I'd say that at absolute most, one out of every ten posts contain something which could even marginally be considered worth responding do. And that's a generous figure. A

really

generous figure.

I'm not going to spend time highlighting things that I think are worthless. I'm only going to bother with things I see as actually meaningful.

It's a "don't interfere unless this is something which desperately needs interfering with" approach.

I won't interfere in a fight, because I want to probe both sides of the debate: all the players in it, and on what the debate is about (usually other players not currently in the debate). The result of this is that I mine info without putting much bias into it. I was distanced from the discussion, so while I may hold an opinion, I didn't influence it so my perspective when I DO give it will be both fresh and relevant.

It's a pretty efficient approach for a large theme.

[mastina]

Right but S_S is town.
And I have no idea what to think about UT, because it's essentially a Reck vanity wagon.

Case and point: under normal circumstances, I wouldn't be quoting this post. I wouldn't be pointing it out. I would be waiting to see if someone else caught the same stuff I did. I would want them to weigh in on their thoughts about it, and from their thoughts, I could better read them, because they got involved before I did.

But for the sake of demonstration, I'll explain. This is one example of the scumteam posting. RC, Ircher, and UT all have similar posts: they'll defend town who are a mislynch option. Then they'll say that one of those other players (RC, Ircher, UT, LLD) look scummy, but refuse to join for whatever reason. They'll write the wagon off. They'll ignore the suspicion...in favor of another town player they hope to mislynch. (Varies from each, and at what time. LLD on me right now, Ircher on McMenno I believe, RC and UT both on Shadow_step if I recall correctly.)

It's textbook scumplay.

[mastina]

Not only are you now using meta against me, but you're flat out wrong.

What in that post was using meta?
I said your play this game insult-wise is fairly tame all things considered, a comment made independent of your alignment.

I said your insults were revealing of you being scum, which is nothing new...because I've been saying that basically the whole game.

I mean. If you want meta. It's that this isn't how you'd be playing as town, and hasn't been since basically your first post. (At least not since the first post I read.) That's the meta I'm using.

[mastina]

Untrod Tripod [5] - mastina, Cheetory6, Ser Arthur Dayne, Nukebringer, Fate
mastina [5] - Lady Lambdadelta, SpyreX, Papa Zito, GuyInFreezer, Untrod Tripod
Something_Smart [5] - RedCoyote, Cephrir, Accountant, MagnaofIllusion, Spiffeh
Ircher [2] - McMenno, ErrantParabola
Vaxkiller [1] - GreyICE
McMenno [1] - Ircher
GuyInFreezer [1] - Something_Smart
SpyreX [1] - Vaxkiller
Not Voting [3] - hiplop, Nahdia, xRECKONERx

I am surprisingly okay with this turn of events.
In fact it fills me with absolute glee.

[mastina]

Zzzz Something Special's wagon looks like a disaster of a lynch waiting to happen.

Pretty much, yeah!

[mastina]

UT had 0 contribution to the game until he became a lynch contender.

That implies he's given contributions at all thusfar.
Still hasn't.

What he did do, though, is get rather defensive and active once he was a lynch contender.
That should not be confused with contribution under any circumstance.

[mastina]

Something_Smart [8] - RedCoyote, Cephrir, Accountant, MagnaofIllusion, Spiffeh, Untrod Tripod, GuyInFreezer, Nukebringer
Untrod Tripod [4] - mastina, Cheetory6, Ser Arthur Dayne, Fate
mastina [3] - Lady Lambdadelta, SpyreX, Papa Zito
Ircher [2] - McMenno, ErrantParabola
Vaxkiller [1] - GreyICE
McMenno [1] - Ircher
GuyInFreezer [1] - Something_Smart
SpyreX [1] - Vaxkiller
Not Voting [3] - hiplop, Nahdia, xRECKONERx

I am not nearly as okay with this turn of events.
In fact it leaves me feeling rather...disappointed.

[mastina]

Not much to comment on. The UT and Mastina wagons undercut one another (keep this in mind for later as UT was long pushed as an alternative that only collapsed when it became relevant ... and the same goes for Vax, naturally, though I think the claim was a valid variable), so all roads seem to lead back to SS.

So...your thoughts are that the UT and mastina, and to a lesser extent the Vaxkiller wagons, all undercut each other, while the Something_smart wagon has remained consistent, yeah?

Now tell me...what in previous games has that usually been an indicator for in regards to Something_smart?

[mastina]

I also never thought UT would be successful. For better or for worse, he holds enough clout with enough players that it just wouldn't happen over him fluffing it up.

[Town]---Vax-Cheet----Nahdia-Accountant-GIF--MoI--Grey-PZ--SAD---Ceph-Spiff-Nukebringer-Spy-Reck-Mastina-hiplop-[·]-LLD-Fate-McMenno-Ircher---UT-Errant-----SS-----------[Scum]

So...UT is your third-strongest scumread...and you're in no way interested in his wagon?

[mastina]

Mastina's vote on UT was opportunistic as fuck.

Uh-huh.
Voting my second-strongest scumread, who I had voiced my scumread on many times prior to that point, when there's zero fucking interest in lynching my strongest scumread, sure is opportunism. And not. Yaknow. Pragmatically not being a stubborn asshole pursuing a vanity wagon.

[mastina]

My issue with joining the UT wagon is that I know UT can be a good player and I struggle to read him, and it feels very much, like I said prior, like a vanity wagon from you.
But if even a little bit, this is driven by ego as opposed to confidence, I'd like to discuss another option with you.

I mean this pretty much writes itself.

[mastina]

Vote: Mastina

LLD is scum.

She sure is. So help me bus her instead of wasting your vote on me.

[mastina]

So your action when stating LLD is scum is to vote the player who stated they are nuking LLD?

For what it's worth the only reason I said I'm nuking LLD is because I don't think there's support to lynch her prior to D3. If I'm wrong, then hell yeah I'll lynch her and just nuke some other scum bastard.

[mastina]

My issue with joining the UT wagon is that I know UT can be a good player and I struggle to read him, and it feels very much, like I said prior, like a vanity wagon from you.
But if even a little bit, this is driven by ego as opposed to confidence, I'd like to discuss another option with you.

I mean this pretty much writes itself.

So I'd like you to elaborate on that one liner please.

I mean I could use my own words.

But GreyICE's shall suffice.

See this is
Scumposting
Don't know what it says about anyone's alignment
She's too good for me to read the angle
But there's an angle, angle is scum

I could go into more depth than he did. My reasons aren't quite identical to his own. But I don't feel like sharing with the rest of the class at this time. I'd prefer to wait and watch and see others looking at it to write their own, similar to how GreyICE did.

Suffice to say I hold fast to that. It writes itself.

[mastina]

Were not lynching scum today and Im ok with that

Well you unvoted scum who was at L-1, so you really have only yourself to blame for that.

[mastina]

By the way, I normally wouldn't bother, but RC's posting on 110 is pure scumposting.

[mastina]

Of the two UT is less ornery and posts more useful stuff.

Do tell.

No, seriously.

Do tell: what, exactly, has UT posted which you quantify as "useful stuff"?

Dead serious question.

[mastina]

I'm really waiting for this day to end.....

^And you're letting shit like this live, just for the record.
This is a player who KNOWS Something_smart is town.

It's also ironically the very first piece of evidence in the game thread to possibly suggest UT as town, because this I can see from scum who knows both leading wagons are on town. (Which, yaknow. Is why I'd actually prefer Ircher, but of UT/Vaxkiller/S_S, UT is my preferred lynch by an absolute LANDSLIDE.)

[mastina]

Something_Smart is probably gonna flip town.

No shit, sherlock.

But it's post like these which make you be in my suspect pool. Not quite egregious enough to land you in the scum pool, but a useless post all the same. If you think Something_smart is going to flip town, and you yourself are town, then it's your obligation to fight against his lynch and search for a viable alternative--you're voting UT, sure, but why aren't you fighting for that lynch? Why aren't you pressing points against him? And why aren't you mounting a defense on S_S's behalf beyond "He's probably town"? Reasons and whatnot.

[mastina]

When cornered, the scum will often fakeclaim to draw out their natural enemy the cop.

Yeah the problem with that is there's two people who put cop as their first draft and didn't get it, already.

So SOMEONE had to have gotten it as their first pick.

Furthermore: there are TWO roles which can reveal Something_smart as a liar, and unless you're saying:
-Scum put Cop first (okay, possible)
-A second scum put Fighter first (okay, I can see it)
-A third scum put Radar first (basically the scumteam purposefully denying the town its investigatives)...

...Then the simple fact is, the town can and will discover if Something_smart is lying.
You also have to keep in mind:

Unless the scum have EITHER the roleblocker OR the doctor, they can't stop follow-the-cop. So claiming to out the cop loses them a scummate...and gives them nothing. Literally, NOTHING. Because they cannot. kill. or. stop. the cop who counterclaims.

In other words: Something_smart either is scum and HAS the cop...
...Or Something_smart is town, and has the cop.

So the solution is obvious: we don't fucking lynch the cop and we force scum to reveal they either have the roleblock or the doctor at night. Something_smart claims to be blocked? Either he's scum and the scumteam has the block and chose not to use it (because a town roleblocker will counterclaim S_S), or he's town and the scumteam has the roleblocker and used it on him. (So in short, the results tonight--REGARDLESS OF SOMETHING_SMART'S ALIGNMENT--will tell us which alignment holds the roleblock.)

Something_smart is shot by the terrorist and not protected? Scumteam has the doc.
Something_smart lives and produces results?
Either he is scum guessing (remember, the scum get useless results--EVERYONE they investigate has an alignment different from their own, so he cannot catch the terrorist if he is scum), which we can potentially catch him in a lie about, or he is town producing real results.

So regardless of what your thoughts are on Something_smart (though at this stage it's pretty obvious he's town), the optimal town play is to let. him. live.

[mastina]

are you people seriously going to let this scumbag coast on a bullshit cop claim

Is anyone seriously going to let ^this scumbag coast on bullshit posting that amounts to nothing but whining about how he's being run up?

[mastina]

unless, you know, he's scum who drafted espionage. which i guess is totally possible. idk.

It's really simple math. The scenarios you have:
-Something_smart is scum, without espionage: scum were hoping to draw the cop out.
*If the scumteam has neither the roleblocker nor the doctor, this is explicitly suicidal. A cop counterclaiming would receive doctor protection, and we could simply use follow-the-cop.
*If the scumteam has the doctor, then unless the terrorist kills the cop, the cop still gets at least one valid result.
*If the scumteam has the roleblocker, well, we know the roleblocker is in the hands of scum and we can work on finding it especially if radar/fighter are in town hands. (Finding a player visiting the cop = finding the roleblocker or the doctor. Finding a player with the roleblock = finding scum.)
This scenario is pretty unlikely.

-Something_smart is scum, with espionage:
*If the scumteam has the roleblocker, they cannot use it at night. This frees up all other town PRs, to allow for Something_smart to claim roleblocked.
*If the scumteam does not have the roleblocker, then Something_smart must "produce" results, results which mind you are a GUESS because a scum cop cannot locate the terrorist. He either busses scum, or risks getting caught on a false innocent.
I find this scenario less likely, but oh well.

-Something_smart is town with espionage:
*If the scumteam has the roleblocker, they use it on Something_smart. This frees up the other town PRs, and tells us information about the scumteam.
*If the scumteam does not have the roleblocker, but has the doctor, Something_smart gets one valid investigation (unless the terrorist is bold), and then is killed by the scumteam. Not a bad deal for a player so widely scumread.
*If the scumteam has neither the roleblocker nor the doctor, this game becomes :easymode: as we engage follow-the-cop. Either Nahdia is town with counterintelligence meaning all results are fully 100% accurate, or Nahdia is scum and any tampered with investigation reveals to us this fact.

No matter which, the optimal path is letting Something_smart live.

[mastina]

The last thing I've been doing is whining about being voted

Uh-huh.
If I wasn't feeling like a lazy ass right now, I'd show why this is bullshit.

Since I am, I'll just leave the work to someone like SAD because yeah. This is bullshit.

[mastina]

Mastina let's have a fun here. If UT's town, your vote proxies to mine for rest of the game. bIf SS's scum, your nuke proxies to mine for rest of the game.

Yeah fuck that shit.

Not only is this a game DEFINED by individualism (meaning fuck your idea of me sheeping anyone ever), but ALSO fuck the idea of following someone who has a higher-than-standard (we're talking like 60% compared to a default of 50%--not extremely over, but enough to be more than just a little past null) chance of being scum themselves.

If you're scum you already know the results of this lynch.

And while there's a good 80-90% chance UT is scum (and basically a 95% chance Something_smart is town), you are now the SECOND player to have given me reason to maybe suspect the opposite. Your posts reek of foreknowledge.

So FUCK no, not dealing with your shit.

[mastina]

Correction: THIRD.
Ircher did with both lynches.
Nahdia did with Something_smart.
And GIF now has done, mainly with UT but partially also Something_smart. (Albeit opposite to Nahdia, so yes those two would be mutually exclusive.)

[mastina]

Goddammit.

UT's town.

If the options are lynching UT or lynching Something_smart, I'll pick lynching UT any day over lynching Something_smart, but UT's flipping town.

[mastina]

UT I don't really think you are scum but like I'm not voting the cop so

^

And I'm the third-highest and I'm not gonna vote myself, and I'm sure not gonna vote for Vaxkiller, either.

I'd love wagons on Ircher, RC, or LLD though.
LLD/Ircher are the only two who've gotten votes at any point, though, and for both that was like one or two each.

[mastina]

I'm down for uhhhhh
an LLD flashwagon

Sure, what's stopping us?

VOTE: Lady Lambdadelta.

[mastina]

Lambdelta is starting to look suspicious...

FoS Lamb

Pretty sure Lamb is the Terrorist by the way she's acting, but not definite....

Uh... did I say this guy was town at some point?

I sure hope not because that'd be a pretty shitty thing to have said.

[mastina]

Ser Arthur Dayne
Cephrir
Cheetory
Nukebringer
Spiffeh

Reck
MoI
Accountant
Vaxkiller

Fate
GreyICE
Something_smart
hiplop
McMenno
Errantparabola
SpyreX

Nahdia
UT
GiF

Zito
RC
Ircher
LLD

This is a more accurate reflection of my current thoughts.

[mastina]

(hiplop represents the dead-null. Though, Something_smart may deserve to be a spot or two higher.)

[mastina]

So why Zito? Talk to me about him.

Same reason as the others, albeit slightly weaker: my psychological profile of Zito tells me he

could

act this way as town.

I would be

thoroughly

disappointed if he actually WERE acting this way as town, sure. Which is one reason why I'm hoping and praying he's scum like I'm predicting. But it's possible he's town with shitty play.

All the same, while it's possible, it is only at...like, 25% tops chance. If my profile is even remotely close to accurate on him, then this is more akin to his scumgame than his towngame.

I'd be more than happy to bus him if you'd join me there. I'm not voting him right now simply because he doesn't have the support.

[mastina]

Not sure why Zito is an investigation target he's a null town for me

Which makes him a great investigation target.

You don't investigate strong scumreads OR strong townreads. That's copplay 101. You investigate the weaker reads. Preferably weaker reads that are stronger players. And Zito is someone I classify as a stronger player. (Which is, mind you, one reason he is a scumread: this is not a strong player performance from him.)

[mastina]

I don't like this claim at all, but we have to move forward.
UNVOTE: Something_Smart; VOTE: Untrod Tripod
UT has an okay shot at flipping scum, but it's dwindled in my mind in light of some of the more outlandish attacks against him (namely, SAD's). It also speaks to me that Reck has since backed away from this wagon, indicating that he's having second thoughts.
The main problem is I'm not confident enough in SSscum that I'd be willing to chance it.

^If RC wasn't already my #2 scumread, for this shit he's earned it.

I'd love to have him dead, too.

[mastina]

ill vote mastin bc i cant read her
VOTE: mastina

Then you're either an idiot or the terrorist but eh, cross that bridge when we come to it.

[mastina]

Well dice say we should lynch ErrantParabola. Should we follow destiny Cheetory?

Neither the worst nor the best lynch on the table.

I'd take it if Errant was the only alternative to less-optimal wagons, at the very least. So it's at least viable.

[mastina]

Sigh this game will be very annoying purely because some people are refusing to read the game.

It's obnoxious to have >60 pages to read... I've been pushing reading this thread to the side....

(Ircher's still my #3 scumread btw.)

[mastina]

Although we could also highlight many inexplicable things on that list (ErrantParabola is a high town read).

Not really? At the time of 1273, everyone below Errant had posted something shitty essentially. Errant was similar to Something_smart, in that I hadn't really read Errant's posts, though the reason Errant was above S_S there is because I had read just enough to glance and go, "eh, slightly more likely than not to be town". hiplop's early posting was alarmingly empty. It lacked life. Still kinda does, I just think that less egregious than before. You were posting pretty shittily. Fate wasn't screaming town signs which was a red flag. McMenno wasn't giving me the same town vibes that I know I can lock onto when he's town. (And still hasn't.) MoI is a policy-null-scum basically: his posting was bad but I know I have a bias to always think his posting is bad. GiF's early posting made me think he was town, but his posting has gotten worse and worse and worse.

So it wasn't that Errant was high.

It was that everyone else was low.

I never claimed, contrary to what you are saying, I had good reads.
Rather the opposite, I explicitly stated that because I didn't have many townreads (literally HALF of what I should have), I was sucking hardcore.
Because no fucking duh. If your townlist is equal to your scumlist, you're doing it wrong. My townlist was equal to my scumlist so rather explicitly I was doing it wrong. Heck, it still isn't as large as it should be, though because I could basically split the nulls in half at least I'm somewhat closer than I was in the first.

[mastina]

So now even if the "LYNCH LYNCH LYNCH LYNCH" is them trying to push a wagon, can't tell if it's the UT or SS or mastina...

Secret fourth option: All of the above given it really doesn't matter. Town lynch is a town lynch is a town lynch.

[mastina]

Yes Cheetory. It's a super noncontroversial list with no interesting reads that barely evolves in any manner.

It's not my fucking fault people agree with my reads.

It might be my fault they're not FOLLOWING said reads. When I chose this style of play, rather explicitly I knew I was sacrificing any hope of being charismatic, any hope of powering a lynch through, any hope of becoming a town leader. That was my choice, so I have the consequence where it might be my fault that the others who agree with me aren't voting with me.

But it's not my fucking fault that other people agree with my reads.

I made my first list on November sixteenth (fun fact I think I only listed about nineteen of the players who posted in there, would have to manually count though and that's effort), though that was only the first one I actually compiled. I was mentally sorting people in my head even prior to that point, before I decided it would

probably

be a good idea to record those thoughts so I didn't forget them.

[mastina]

She's just fucking coasting as scum

I am in fact coasting.
It is indeed strategic coasting, too.

I am deliberately selecting, picking and choosing, what content I provide, what I will and will not respond to. I could be giving this game a lot more serious effort than I am giving it now, and I am DELIBERATELY choosing not to give that effort. This choice is not a choice made from real-life reasons (e.g. not wanting to devote too much time to this game). This is a choice I have made, fully with my alignment in mind and as a direct product of it.

So you're not

exactly

wrong here.

You are however, failing to grasp what precisely my strategy here is. There are multiple reasons, all of them pro-town, why I adapted this approach. The simple fact of the matter here is that right now, I'm in a position where the most likely outcome is one overall favorable to my agenda. I am almost positive the day will not end in a manner I am intensely displeased with. I only have a 50% chance of getting the day ending in a manner that I am intensely pleased with, but even if I cannot get that, then the other 50% is that I will get an end to the day I am at least okay with.

This is a game where there is low GAME risk (though high reputation risk I'll admit), and high reward.

And the only thing you can do is make a simple choice:
Accuse this of being scum bullshit, or accept I believe what I am saying. (Not that that excludes it from being bullshit. At a getogether, someone I know gave a quote which I felt IMMENSELY appropriate to my personality: "I took a calculated risk...but I'm really bad at math." )

[mastina]

Mastina is literally pissing off so many people with stuff she's doing. If you think that's coasting I don't know what to tell you????>????

Oi, I can piss people off

while

coasting. Heck, I'm doing it right now with my posting!

[mastina]

Is mastin stubborn with her reads as town?

Difficult question to answer.

To fully understand, first you must understand that there is ALWAYS two sides to the mastina in a mafia game:
The mastina you see, and the mastina she stops you from seeing. More than ANY other player, I change, I doubt, my reads.

You call bullshit! Yeah, I get that a lot.
Because you call bullshit off of the mastina you see.
Because that's the mastina I let you see.

I never let people in on the real mastina. The mastina within has doubts. Like, the mastina within screams doubt at LLD being scum. The mastina within holds paranoia of players like Cephrir and Nukebringer. The mastina within has even thought that Cheetory's doing nothing but basically white knighting could maybe be a mask for scum. Fuck! The mastina within has even dealt with the idea that maybe SAD could be scum.

The thing is, though, if I let the mastina within out, if I let the mastina within dominate me full-time.
I'd have no reads at all. Any time. I'd post something, then immediately take it back. I'd push an idea, then go, "wait, no, maybe I was wrong". Because my brain is

hardwired

to doubt. My brain is hardwired to be afraid. My brain is hardwired to experience fear of being wrong. My brain is hardwired to always think, "what if?". What if LLD actually is town? Originally, "What if UT is actually town?" And now, "What if I was originally right and UT was scum?" What if S_S actually was scum? What if Vaxkiller was actually scum? What if GreyICE was actually scum?

It's overwhelming. And it's useless. So, I...pick and choose. I tune out the smaller things. I deliberately shut them off. I ignore them. I ignore the smaller warning signs, and try to focus on the larger picture. I try to feel what the probabilities are. I would never get anywhere by feeling possibilities, because I feel EVERY possibility. Every damn day. Every moment I consider the game--and I ponder the game even when I'm away from a computer, crunching numbers and calculating--I have those scenarios in me. So I try to get the ones I think are strongest. I let what amounts to basically instinct guide me to what things are the strongest.

And

those

are what I present to people.
And inherent in those, is a bias. Because I am guessing at probabilities, I am deliberately ignoring evidence that goes against that probability. So I am intentionally tuning out potential information that clashes with a read.
In that regard...because of that fact.
When I present my reads, the mastina you see.
Looks to change only rarely. And slowly. And bitterly, even.

And by that appearance.

Yes, I am stubborn.

[mastina]

She posts them whenever she wants to get a rise. She promotes players who haven't posted in game to the top of the town pile. She switches her entire reads because a new theory occurred to her and she wants to see what reaction it gets. It follows no logic I can discern, and is mostly just for the hell of it.

This is all true, more or less.

And I can tell you why every name on that list is where it is and it's super boring.

GOOD.

Because the lists are one of the few areas this game where I'm

not

trolling.
No more than me in a normal game would, anyway. (Which is to say: not much.)

[mastina]

Untrod Tripod [9] - Ser Arthur Dayne, Nahdia, McMenno, ErrantParabola, Ircher, Something_Smart, Vaxkiller, Fate, Nukebringer
mastina [8] - Lady Lambdadelta, Papa Zito, SpyreX, GreyICE, xRECKONERx, Accountant, Untrod Tripod, RedCoyote
Something_Smart [2] - GuyInFreezer, MagnaofIllusion
Vaxkiller [2] - Cheetory6, Spiffeh
Lady Lambdadelta [1] - mastina
ErrantParabola [1] - hiplop
RedCoyote [1] - Cephrir

By the way, with the Something_smart wagon

thoroughly

demolished at this point, I can say:
Mission fucking accomplished.

Like I said: today will not end in a way I am intensely displeased with.

Oh and as general warning, that's as large as the mastina wagon will ever get. You've got maybe enough to get me to L-1 if you're absolutely lucky, by combining the policy voters with the scumreaders with the scum who can get away with voting me and not have it be a scumclaim with the apathy vote-any-wagon players. But if you look at the people who are self-described as scumreading me, policy-voting me, and apathy-vote-any-wagon players...(not to mention the players I have cast as being scum)

...Most of them are

already on me

. (The only two which 100% fall into one of those categories which aren't are Nukebringer and Fate, which'd bring me up to ten of thirteen needed.)

Like I said before. When I ran this gambit from the start, I knew there was a risk. 50/50 chance of me being the D1 lynch, 100% chance I get nuked the moment D3 begins if I lived through the lynch. But when I saw the game in effect and crunched the numbers, I reran the calculation. You simply don't have the numbers to lynch me today. You MIGHT have them tomorrow. (I doubt it.) You'll definitely have them on D3. But by D3 it'll be nuketime anyway, so.

You basically have two choices: stay on a wagon which won't go through, or pursue another wagon which might go through.
The day for my death will come.
But it is not this day.

[mastina]

DO YOU THINK YOU HAVE AN ACCURATE PSYCHOLOGICAL PROFILE OF ME, LET ALONE OF ANYONE ON AN ONLINE WEB FORUM?

That's what true meta is: psychological profiling. Situational awareness is an extension of that. It is what a player is, and is not, likely to do. It is what a player is, and is not, likely to react to. It is what a player will, and will not do, as an alignment.

But to answer: No I don't hold absolute confidence in my psychological profile of you.

I lack experience playing with you.

I know of you by reputation, LLD. I have read games you have been in, LLD. But honestly. I don't think we have so much as ONCE played together. So my profile on you is based largely on flawed points: random snippets here and there. Your reputation as a player preceding you. Random facts I have gathered about you, compiled as coherently as I can make them. Little stuff from your actions in THIS game that added to the profile. And then, from that, creating the profile.

It is guesswork at best.

My psychological profile of you, as I have it, places you as being more likely than not to be scum, especially off of your earlier posting.

My psychological profile of you, however...hmm, let me guess what you would say...is "absolute shit".
So I have a scumread on you.

I don't know you well enough to know that scumread to be accurate.
I do however HOLD that scumread.

[mastina]

First, tell me about my profile. I'm curious

Well first off, I'll start by admitting that you, like LLD, I know more by reputation than by firsthand experience. I've seen you play a few times here and there, but only sporadically so.

Yet for you, the profile is relatively simple, and binary:
As town you will disguise content as trolling.
As scum, you will disguise trolling as content.

I was under the impression this game was the latter, but I have reason now to doubt this.

Second: bus...him...?

GreyICE was saying Zito is my obligatory scumbuddy-bus. I said if so, gladly lynch Zito, essentially.

[mastina]

That's a mastina mannerism. She's calling GI scum with whoever in that post.

mastina mannerism, yes, calling GreyICE scum with Zito, no. It's GreyICE calling me scum with Zito, so I challenged him: "Help me bus Zito then". Because by his viewpoint, I am scum with Zito. Zito is apparently bussing me. And I am apparently willing to bus Zito. So I'm calling him out to switch to Zito because by his viewpoint...Papa Zito should still be scum.

[mastina]

Hey Mastin, can you tell me about my Psychological Profile? I''d love to learn more about your insights on DID, yeah?

Psychological profiles as town don't work well in words, since they're mostly concepts in my mind. Call bullshit all you like, but that's my fucking autism in play and I don't like that any more than you do that I don't really work in words when making the profiles as town. I can give general rankings, more or less. "This player is a good scum player, this player is not a good scum player, this player is an amazing town player, this player is not a good town player, this player isn't stellar as either alignment, this person is a GOD as both town and scum". That I can do. I can give projections. "LLD did this. I do not think this is something she would do as town, from what I know". Or more accurately to this game, "From what I know, the way LLD reacted is more indicative of her scum profile than her town one". But that's explaining the conclusion. Not how I arrived there. That's explaining what the end result of the data is, not the data itself. The data itself is in my brain, and I can't really bring it out.

If you've played with Plotinus before, I believe Plot has something similar and has described the process before.

[mastina]

And you never had any hope of being charismatic, now or in any other mafia game.

My past game record stands to disagree with you.

Regardless of whether I am right or wrong, I can and have gotten people to listen to me.

You know me by my negative reputation. Or if we've got actual game experience, something so obscure that I don't remember it. But anyone who has actually played with me in the last three fucking years knows that yes, I can get people to follow me when I choose to.

I simply often deliberately make the choice not to.

Because, newsflash.

I actually don't like leading!

That's because leaders have responsibility. Leaders have expectations of them. Leaders are supposed to produce results. Leaders hold pressure. Being a leader is stressful. And I don't like dealing with that shit. So I choose not to lead. And it is exactly that: a CHOICE not to lead.

[mastina]

Want to know why an ISOdive on Mastin doesn't work? Because she refuses to respond to anything that may portray her in a negative light.

I mean even if I was playing this game dead seriously that's just common fucking sense.

You DON'T spend time responding to the things portraying you in a negative light. That may not be a scumtell in this day and age, but it's just a fucking stupid idea because it's scummy-ass defending rather than being a proactive scumhunter.

So it's not like this is anything which should be utterly surprising.

[mastina]

I don't think I'd like the Mastina I don't see any more than the one I do see, but the change could be refreshing.

Try reading mastina games from early 2011. My games were literally filled to the fucking brim with that mastina. I often accidentally let her out in the lategame. We're talking near the endgame, where paranoia, mistrust, and doubt reach their highest, and where uncertainty takes control as by

necessity

you must question assumptions held for the whole game. (In fact it's pretty fucking easy to catch the scumastina during this time because I've never faked that convincingly. Anything Goes was the closest I ever got and even there that was a preeeeeeeeeeeeeeeetty hollow performance on my part. It's easy for a scumastina to fake "arrogant"-mastina. It's borderline impossible for scumastina to fake raging doubts mastina.) This, especially if the assumptions I have held have REPEATEDLY proven to be wrong. I expect to not hold perfection. I expect to be flawed. I expect to not catch all the scum. But I hold myself to a standard where I expect to catch SOME scum, and if I fall short of that mark, I

really freak out

. It gets bad.

Really bad.

I'd rather people assume me to be an arrogant asshole than be that mastina willingly. Because the arrogant asshole mastina is at least marginally useful. Oh I'm sure plenty disagree, but that's because they

haven't

seen the doubt-mastina. Anyone who HAS seen the doubt-mastina will quickly find themselves in agreement. I'm more useful arrogant than I am not-arrogant.

[mastina]

So the readslist you were so fervently defending - to the point that you complained about people not following it - was full of shit all along?

You assume much off of little.

[mastina]

so you have no faith in your scumread on LLD but put her at the bottom of your "not trolling" reads list?

I hold no faith in the accuracy of the scumread.

That does not diminish the

strength

of the scumread.

I think she is scum.
I think she is scum more than I think any other player is scum.
I know I do not hold experience with her so my assumption could be vastly off-base.
This does nothing to change that...I still fucking think she is scum.

Faith in accuracy, and strength of scumread, are two different concepts. They are not synonymous.

[mastina]

I feel really stupid saying this, but mastina's out of my townreads with S_S being scum :/

Not to worry, I have a foolproof method of proving I am town, and that is...my activity! Because, you see...I did not log into mastina at all between the time of the lynch and the time of day start! And clearly, that means there is no POSSIBLE way I am scum.

Clearly. Because surely not logging onto mastina is proof that I could in no way whatsoever be scum!

[mastina]

I'm waiting for mastina to post.

My thoughts on the matter of your counterclaim is that there is--at MINIMUM--a 50% chance you are pulling the move from my mini normal, by being the townier scum player who ACTUALLY has the cop, counterclaiming the scummier scumbuddy who was a goon, and that by having done so, you have earned immunity to scrutiny allowing you to coast for the rest of the game.

However, my thoughts are also that nobody gives a damn about my thoughts, so it's irrelevant. And even if for some unfathomable reason, someone did care about my opinion here and take it seriously, then my stance on the matter is that you have immunity for the same reason I would have granted immunity to Something_smart: regardless of whether that theory of mine is right or wrong, you remain an asset to the town. Town, scum, doesn't matter. You are above reproach because of your role.

[mastina]

FFS you guys were supposed to have lynched someone while I was gone. Now I have to read a bunch of nonsense.

^By the way.
Justsayin'.

All of Zito's posts around here are pure scumposting.

Thought I'd let you know.

[mastina]

not being able to read you makes me an idiot or a terrorist?

Yes.
You're not groupscum.

However, you had a read on me before and now you're claiming you don't. When I've only made it MORE obvious I'm town, rather than less.

So either you're an idiot (because you'd have put absolutely zero thought into finding my alignment), which I'm increasingly not believing because you're not someone I really buy as being an idiot...
...Or you're the terrorist, playing something which is more convenient to your agenda.

Saying you can't read me is more convenient for an anti-town perspective because it lets you basically do whatever the fuck you want. It means you can avoid taking a firm stance one way or another, and yet you can also take a stance wherever you feel you need to: pandering to the mastina defenders, pandering to me, pandering to the mastina attackers, with your stance of not being able to read me you can do literally any of the three.

Thus, terrorist. But also not important because I don't give a fuck about hunting for a terrorist. You're not groupscum, so you're not someone I hold any interest in pursuing.

[mastina]

fate nooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Couple of quick things, by the way.
One this is a bad post.
Two, Fate is exactly the kill Reck would make as the serial killer.

If Reck claims otherwise, he's a fucking liar.
Now granted.
Reck is not the

only

player here who would kill Fate as the terrorist.
In fact I'm pretty sure over half the damn playerlist (myself included) would kill Fate N1 as the terrorist.

But Reck is among that pool.
Though, again: not a current issue.

We're hunting scum, not the SK.
And speaking of scum...
VOTE: Red Coyote.

[mastina]

I investigated Fate. He was not with Russians. Unfortunately, we all know that already.

When GiF flips scum with the cop, I am going to LORD this over you.
This is such a damn scumclaim of an investigation it's not even funny.

But oh well.

His time will come.

[mastina]

I'm kind of upset that mastina might be scum if SAD is scum.

Fortunately for you that's never happening!

[mastina]

Skimming for now, but I am having a hard time buying that Ser Arthur Dayne would try to save Something_Smart that hard when it would've been easier to bus the guy.
That mastina wagon was shit, however.

The closest I have to a reason for suspecting Nukebringer is that I am not only one, agreeing with Firebringer, but two, that he would defend me.

...All the same. He's totally right here.

Something_smart is NOT a scumbuddy you hardcore defend, and ANYONE who thinks otherwise is a complete and total fucking moron.
Any scumbuddies defending S_s are going to have done it soft: "Hey, why is there this S_s wagon, can someone explain it to me?". The like.
Also people who waffled. "This S_s wagon is okay, but I also like this other wagon (which is on town) just as much". That too.

Bussing Something_smart was ridiculously easy. ESPECIALLY post-claim.
Town did not know Something_smart was lying.
Scum did.

So the third and final place to look for scum is in those who pushed Something_smart even

harder

post-cop-claim.

[mastina]

Is it really that easy?

I fundamentally do not believe in easy.

It never is.

EVER.

Never, ever, ever, in hundreds of games.

Is it fucking easy.

We assume it's easy.

Dozens upon dozens of times, we

assume

the game is easy.

But it NEVER is.

LEAST of all in a game with this caliber of players.
Do you think the entire scumteam this game is made up of all the weakest players, save for maybe one or two stronger players that can be caught by associations?

Fuck no.
Especially not given the contents of the scum PT.

That trolling you see in there? That spam?
That's the mark of a veteran of the HAHAHA FUCK YOU mentality.

Now, players like UT (though he's not scum), Reck (though he's not scum either), GreyICE (who probably isn't scum), LLD, SpyreX, Fate (though he's proven not scum), Zito, and the like?

Those players fit the profile for what we know scum are doing in there.

So it's basic common fucking sense.
The scumteam is not going to be caught easily by such amateur associations.

And personally, three of my strongest suspects right now are GiF, Zito, and RC.

[mastina]

I think GI's mastin push towards the end of the Day was pretty shit

What drugs are you on?

His end of day push on me was literally the best thing in his iso.

It was his early content (including his earlier push on me) which was pretty shit.

[mastina]

And it had been established at least in my eyes that mastin's antics were NAI and anyone trying to case her was trying to look busy

How, exactly?

I mean to be blunt the strategy I'm using this game is closer to my scumgame than my towngame. Even the PMs I sent to Andrius, where I explained my grand plan, I sounded half like I was scum sending them as I explained my motivation. Particularly the part where I explained I was playing up people's perceptions of me and deliberately acting the way they THINK I act rather than acting the way I actually act. I literally told him (and hopefully by extent the dead/spectator thread, albeit only those who have spoilers) that I was doing stuff that is more akin to my scumgame. And also, my whole perspective of things even. As town I tend to care how people see me, taking great offense to comments calling me shitty. As scum I will deliberately let people think I am shitty in order to live longer, and while I'll still be bothered, I'll keep my concerns private and vent about them in the scum topic. And this is explicitly closer to the latter.

GreyICE's case on me was fine.

[mastina]

Where are your reads at right now?

Not addressed to me, but you saw me mention three heavy suspects. Ircher is also on that list, which I forgot to mention. My list aside from that looks something akin to this:

Ser Arthur Dayne
Cephrir
Cheetory
UT
Vaxkiller
Spiffeh
Nukebringer

MoI
GreyICE
Accountant
Reck

hiplop
Nahdia
McMenno
Errantparabola
SpyreX

Some of these changes are obvious enough.
Others less so.

I don't really expect people to ask about said changes, but people are free to.

[mastina]

Why kill someone who was probably gonna get nuked anyway?

You're not a veteran, so you don't know this.

Fate is a god-tiered player, ESPECIALLY in the eyes of the oldguard. As both alignments. If he was getting nuked at all, it was BY scum. His kill suggests the terrorist is someone who was familiar with him intimately.

The fully list of players I'd say qualify for that are SpyreX, Papa Zito, probably Red Coyote, probably MagnaofIllusion, maybe Equinox (so, Nukebringer), Lady Lambdadelta, Untrod Tripod, I'd qualify myself as included (YMMV), GuyInFreezer, Reck, GreyICE, I believe SAD, and probably Cephrir too.

Unfortunately, that's 13 players--literally half the fucking game. So by itself, doesn't particularly narrow down the terrorist, which is why we shouldn't be focusing on terrorist-hunting at the moment. I have my suspicion that it's Reck, sure, but it's just that, a suspicion. We cross the bridge of the terrorist when we come to it...later. Much later in the game, after we have a far clearer pattern in behavior and kills and the scum are no longer the primary threat.

[mastina]

I am concerned by the Fate nk

Same. I'm trying to figure this out rn.

I mean this is basically a scumclaim from Zito.

Spiffeh doesn't know about Fate, so him saying this is no concern.
Cheetory doesn't know about Fate, so him echoing Spiffeh is of no concern.

Zito DOES know about Fate. For him, it should be absolutely NO fucking surprise the terrorist took him out, because no fucking duh, this is FATE we're talking about, who as I just pointed out...literally half the playerlist would have as a high-priority kill.

[mastina]

Not to worry, I have a foolproof method of proving I am town, and that is...my activity! Because, you see...I did not log into mastina at all between the time of the lynch and the time of day start! And clearly, that means there is no POSSIBLE way I am scum. Clearly. Because surely not logging onto mastina is proof that I could in no way whatsoever be scum!

Lol. Just Lol.

<3
Glad you appreciated it. <3

[mastina]

gif has been town the whole game and i don't understand your vendetta with him.

Vendetta?

Now tell me.
In the GiF-mastina pair: which person is calling the other a piece of shit?

I don't hold a vendetta against GiF. I certainly don't think he holds one against me, either, which is one of the reasons why I think he's scum.
And I haven't held this opinion the whole game. GiF started as a townread.
But then his posting got worse and worse: more lurking. More apathy. More, lack of anything tangible. He was basically skirting by on absolutely nothing. And then, someone--I forget who--made points against GiF. I didn't acknowledge them at the time (so I'd have to manually search the thread for them and fuck that, too much effort), but while I didn't want to agree, while I didn't

want

to let go of the townread, the points resonated with what I was seeing.

Then you get to his attitude this game, and it just reeks of scum coasting. Plus, last I knew, GiF actually holds me in respect as a player, in about the same way you do: if he were town, the expectation I'd hold of him would be that he'd think I was acting weird. He'd be trying to figure out if I was scum just posting blatantly as scum because I didn't know what to do...or if I was town acting batshit insane because of some sort of weird plan I had. You know...basically, exactly what YOU did. What you did, I expected of GiF, because he actually has the knowledge and experience of me to know that when I play in these really odd, strange ways, pulling crazy stunts...that I've always got a plan.

FURTHERMORE, adding to this is the talk we have in the mafia PT. The codes being used, and the style of posting, when serious, are exactly the type I can see GiF devising. Now, mind you. He's not the only player who could have come up with these. RC is a secondary candidate for exactly that. I could probably compile off of their psychological profiles a full list, but just from the game thread alone you can already know that LLD would be in their because she TOLD us she can and has done it before. But GiF remains a suspect.

Then, there's the whole way he and Something_smart handled the claim and counterclaim. Something_smart put zero effort into defending himself. He put zero effort into convincing us he was the cop. He didn't bother to defend himself even remotely. He did nothing. He was deliberately preparing to die. No attempt at fighting back, other than a halfhearted vote on GiF post-counterclaim.

And GiF's end is no better. GuyInFreezer was not acting like a cop and he did nothing to push the wagon through on S_s without a claim. This wasn't exactly impossible, either--Something_smart had like four or five votes even post-claim, with his wagon

resurging

. It was growing. BY ITSELF. Without a counterclaim. The counterclaim wasn't needed. All he'd need to do is to press forward and put even remotely some effort into trying to sway people, and he could have lynched Something_smart without the counterclaim.

Then, he claims to have investigated Fate, the nightkill. That delays him giving hard results. That means there is no player we can clear of being mafia today. That means that we have less information to work with and the PoE pool remains just as large as it was before. Plus, some of the leaked chat suggests to me, potentially off of the timestamps, that Something_smart's cop claim was pre-planned, and also that GiF may have been weighing on NOT counterclaiming Something_smart.

This is no vendetta.
This is just pure, simple scumhunting.

GiF is scum.

He is also, however, regrettably above reproach, at least for the time being.

[mastina]

You're getting very nuked on D3 if SAD is scum mastin. :/

That implies I won't be getting nuked on D3 when SAD flips town.

I fully know I am getting nuked.

But I intend to nuke, and info dump my full plan and full reads, before then.

It'd actually be pro-town to nuke me after I've given those.

Still, SAD is flipping town. Guarantee you that much.

I know arrogance in assuming you're right after having been right the first day.
Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.

And that is this. SAD won't flip scum.

[mastina]

[Why would GuyInFreezer counterclaim his own buddy?

Okay, history time.

My mini normal had a Mafia Sane Cop.
A mafia goon claimed cop.
Haylen, the mafia sane cop, counterclaimed.

The mafia goon was seen as scummy, and had been run up under pressure.
Haylen was seen as town even before the claim.

It's a dead mirror to this game.

There are dozens of reasons GiF would counterclaim. Namely, if GiF HAS the cop, and Something_smart doesn't (which he didn't)...guess what happens if GiF claims to have the cop later and S_s was dead without so much of a peep from GiF? The result is that GiF's claim would be thrown into suspicion. What stops us from thinking GiF is just trying the same thing as Something_smart? What stops us from thinking he's a scum goon hoping to draw out the real cop? What stops us from pointing out his lack of counterclaim D1?

Exactly. GiF is not a moron. He knows basic player psychology. And basic player psychology is to make this face: ...when someone later claims cop in a suspicious manner mirroring the suspicious cop claim made on D1. Especially if said player did not go hard against the original cop claim. So GiF, as scum, has one of two options: counterclaim, or push Something_smart HARD and when he later claims, point to the constant nonstop pushing OF Something_smart as proof he knew Something_smart was full of shit because *he* had the cop.

GiF, 100%, guarantee you, possesses the cop. There is not a shadow of a doubt in my mind about this. But GreyICE said it himself: what stops the scum for trying to nab the most dangerous power to them, as to make it useless for the town? Not to mention, a scum cop is useful for the scum trying to hunt for the terrorist. So it goes basically without saying, the scum legitimately vied for the cop.

This was a carefully planned and executed scum ploy. The more and more I read, the more and more I see evidence for it.

[mastina]

are you reading anything at all or just blindly re-spouting whatever reads you had yesterday

My reads have changed, off of new evidence.

My SAD read hasn't because nothing in the new evidence changes my stance. Rather, everything I see reaffirms it. SAD is town, and will be flipping such.

[mastina]

you mean READS CHANGE SOMETIMES!?!

Sure they do.
But they don't change from "I have a townread on mastina" to "I can't read mastina at all".
They can change into, "I'm not longer sure what my read on mastina is".
They can change into, "I was townreading her, but now I'm not sure".
They can change into, "I was townreading her, but now I need to think about it".
Those make sense. That's a logical progression off of new information: you had a read, but then that read changed into something less certain: null, or ambivalent.

When you said you couldn't read me, however, there was no such inclination. There was no effort to read me further. There was no indication of your prior townread. There was no acknowledgement of what you had done, nor a reason for why it had changed. There was nothing, except an abrupt transition: "I think mastina is town" to "I can't read mastina at all". The phrasing is important. Because when you said you couldn't read me, the way you said it was basically as if that was your only read on me ever, as if you were deliberately discarding your prior input.

Which is why I said, idiot or terrorist.
It is not out of the question for you to have done this as town, but it requires an extremely stupid series of justifications.

[mastina]

me early on: "i dont think mastin is this dumb/moronic as scum"
me later: "jesus christ idfk what mastin's doing i cant read her"

Yes exactly.
Your stance that I wouldn't be acting this way as scum changed, yet your logic did not. "I don't know what mastina's doing" is basically identical to the "I don't think mastina would act this way as scum". Yet your read differed despite the identical logic.

That's the issue at hand.

If you had given detail on WHY the two were different, I wouldn't have that issue with you. I'd see the progression, the change in thought. But because you haven't, here we are.

[mastina]

we seem to like forgetting that this setup discourages bussing pre-nukes

In general sure.

But for Something_smart?

Literally a universal scumread?

Like.

I ask of you.

How many people declared strong intent of thinking Something_smart was town?

...For that matter. I can count on a

single fucking hand

the number of people who expressed so much as a TOWNREAD on Something_smart.

There aren't enough players to match the surviving scum, for you to think that scum actively defended him by calling him town.
It's literally impossible.

So you HAVE.
Absolutely, 100%, MUST.
Assume that at least some scum had Something_smart as at least null, if not nullscum or even flat-out scum.

Of course you can argue that they called Something_smart scum and didn't vote him, an opinion I think half-true (in that there's gonna be at least one scum who did this but it sure as fuck isn't going to be most/all of them), but the point remains.

Something_smart is not someone the scumteam defended. Not actively at the very least.

I guarantee you.

[mastina]

SS being a Silo means he had to get to Defcon 1 to get the free scum kill.

And yet you're forgetting a fundamental fact:
Something_smart claimed a role he did not have, on D1.

The scum cannot kill until N2.
They cannot nuke until D3.

If the cop was town and counterclaimed him on D1, as you believe...
...Then Something_smart was going to be a GUARANTEED lynch, and therefore...could not nuke.

So the scum, to take out the cop, in this scenario would be sacrificing not one, but TWO members: Something_smart to the lynch, by cop counterclaim, and whoever the scum is that launches a nuke AT the cop claim.

Which is why I much prefer my GiF-is-scum-with-the-cop theory.

[mastina]

And personally, three of my strongest suspects right now are GiF, Zito, and RC.

How would these three people embody the trolling mentality you just described? RedCoyote, specifically.

The thing about the scumteam, from what we know of the leaks, is that there are two halves to them:
A trolling half.
And a code half.

The scumteam needs members who belong to BOTH halves.

GiF and RC belong to the code half: SOMEONE on the scumteam needed to have invented the code. And from what we have seen of the code, GiF and RC are likely candidates for having developed it.

The scumteam also needs to have members who are trolls.

This REEKS of being Zito's brand of trolling, if you know facts about Zito's personality. Look at his posting in speakeasy in particular and you'll get a fairly decent idea of what I mean. Zito thrives on this sort of thing, so he fits perfectly.

Ircher isn't quite as clean a fit, but I can ALSO see this trolling as his doing, which is why he is a candidate.

There's a reason I'm saying to focus on those four.

[mastina]

So, I'm guessing that pseudo-confirms Guy as not-mafia? Pretty bad bus otherwise imo since there was a lot of resistance to the lynch prior to the counterclaim.

^This is GiF's partner by the way.

Justsayin'.

[mastina]

Hi Mastina I was your top sucm read all yesterday where did my name go?

I have stated on multiple occasions that you are my intended nuke target, so as long as I am living to see D3 (which is looking like a certainty given people are so eager to mislynch SAD and it would be a massive fucking surprise to see either the SK or scum kill me), my read on you is, frankly...utterly, and completely, irrelevant. A nuke on you would reveal your alignment. It's really as simple as that. So I don't need to state my read on you. I'll live tomorrow to see your alignment. (Well, not long tomorrow, but long enough.)

[mastina]

if you actually believe in GiF scum why don't you actually get out and push the wagon

Because even if I am right, GiF is more useful to us right now alive than dead.

And as long as that remains true, as long as regardless of his alignment he is more valuable alive than dead, he is not a lynch target nor a nuke target.

He was not blocked, so he can NEVER claim to be blocked in the game.
He cannot continue claiming to have investigated the nightkill, so he MUST make results at points which we can believe or disbelieve but which can always be tested. (For instance, if the serial killer kills someone he cleared, and that player flips mafia: he's a caught liar. So he's forced to claim innocents that are likely innocent.) If he claims a guilty which flips not guilty, he's a fucking liar. If he claims a guilty which flips guilty, yay go us. If he claims a guilty in a known lylo or mylo, lynch his fucking ass. If he lives even when the doctor is proven dead, he's lynched. If we ever get a scum doctor flip, lynch his fucking ass. If scum with a missile silo are lynched without nuking him (D3 or later), lynch his fucking ass. And as long as he lives, both he and whoever he clears are bait for the SK to kill, and also force the scum to kill, those names, to stop PoE from wrecking them.

This is all true of him if he is mafia.
And if I am wrong (which everyone here believes I am anyway), then he'd be town, and...well, no fucking shit letting the town cop live is beneficial.

So as I said.
He is above reproach.

He is, however, still scum.
So yes, I will continue to go Cassandra at y'all for as long as both he and I live.

[mastina]

I get the sense as I depart my computer that mastina's sudden flurry of activity is more or less motivated to derail the righteous SAD lynch.

I'll be quoting this when SAD flips town.

[mastina]

Still, SAD is flipping town. Guarantee you that much. I know arrogance in assuming you're right after having been right the first day.

Isn't this hypocritical of you to say after S_S?

Quite explicitly, no, BECAUSE I was wrong about Something_smart.
Because I was wrong about Something_smart, my confidence is not arrogance of having been right on D1.
It is confidence in SPITE of being wrong D1.

Whereas most of the strongest (read: people actually making cases against) SAD wagoners are players who were advocating for Something_smart's death on D1: arrogance born of being right. As I said, I know arrogance from having been right. I've BEEN the person arrogant after having been right. And this is a lynch which is arrogance born of being right, with a side of some blatantly scum players sheeping because the players who are arrogant are too blind to notice how atrociously bad the sheeps are. (For instance, read Ircher's reason for joining this wagon.)