Open 656- Tit For Tat - Endgame
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Hey guys, I just replaced alban. Nice to meet you all! I've been following the game closely before replacing and for now I can say I'm kind of uncomfortable with the NJAC wagon. It happened way too quick and the reasons given were super flimsy. I honestly think he's noose bait. There are more important lynches I want to see happening.
I had a very strong scum case on Gamma Emerald when I first started following the game. This hasn't changed much. All I see is a lot of sheeping and his FOSes change like the hand wipes. Post 364 is where the real scum vibes surfaced. All those tells, especially the sanity one, just feel manufactured. "You're scum because uhhh oh yeah, that figure of speech there." I seriously don't like this guy.
VOTE: Gamma Emerald
I'll let you know my thoughts on others soon.- MiniDeathStar
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I think NJAC is the VI. I think scum plays a lot more carefully than he does.
Farside and Gamma instantly sheeped NJAC as soon as you Harkonnen said that. What did Gamma say? "this. this. this." More manufactured tells.
I'm not sure what farside is. She reads somewhat town, but she's very experienced so I don't know. I liked her initially for pushing on Gamma but then she dropped the vote and went on NJAC. Just like that. He wasn't even one of her scum reads. She could have been bussing Gamma for all I know.
Yuria, Kop and Harkonnen feel town for now.
I think Fire Assassin feels town, too.
Unsure on FancyPants, but if Gamma is scum, I doubt Fancy is scum.
Not a lot on eagersnake or persephone. Eager is the more suspicious of the two.
Texcat looks scummy. But the fact everyone else think she is scummy makes me doubt that read somewhat. Then again, why are so few people voting her?
NJAC is most likely a VI.- MiniDeathStar
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Because he's an easy lynch and they are the ones who made it happen. Harkonnen drove the wagon, but they are the ones who gave it momentum. Also they never had strong suspicions on him, they only hopped on the lynch once a universal town read invited people to do it. I guess they thought they can try to shift the blame onto Hark tomorrow, and claim how scummy NJAC was and how they were all doing us a favour.
(Again, this is only if NJAC is town. If he's scum, then I don't know.)- MiniDeathStar
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Who are these people other than me? Alban (whom I replaced) suspected NJAC, too. Like, everyone is saying NJAC is scummy but somehow can't quite put their finger on it. His reads are weak. So are Gamma's and Eager's reads. Where are their wagons? He hasn't said a whole lot. Neither has eager. Where's that wagon?In post 543, FancyPants wrote: Maybe. Town could just have been wrong in that scenario though. I would be more interested in the people who "knew" the NJAC wagon was a bad one, he hasn't done anything that screams town in my estimation.
NJAC didn't panic with the sudden lynch on him. I think that's a town reaction. I agree his reads are weak, but it feels like he's relying more on intuition and can't quite express himself in words. He doesn't nitpick the way Gamma does.
I also think it's very scumvenient that NJAC's wagon appeared this close to the deadline when it would be too late to derail it. I feel like if NJAC was scum, his partners wouldn't have allowed that to happen. They would have steered it towards some other lurker. Who gains anything by bussing NJAC right now? I don't think anybody does.
These are good questions. I like FancyPants.FancyPants also wrote:@Eager, I would appreciate it if you felt like explaining your Kop vote.
Additionally do you have a few likely scum reads, other than Kop?
@Persephone, if you were absolutely forced to kill someone this second, who would it be and why?- MiniDeathStar
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Actually I really didn't see your last post. I'm sorry about that. I thought before you voted him you were saying he plays scummy when he is town, which is why I was very baffled at you sheeping that wagon.
If you think Gamma is scum with NJAC, why is Gamma bussing NJAC right now? Like, what does he gain from that? Even if NJAC flips scum, I wouldn't give Gamma *any* towncredit for it.
I said NJAC was town because I think he just isn't very good at putting his thoughts into words and is trying to rely more on intuition for his reads. He isn't nitpicking or changing his FOS at first convenience. Then again, I hadn't seen his previous game until now. I have to note he *is* playing a little different this time. I just don't know if it's enough to make me want to vote him over Gamma.- MiniDeathStar
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Also I'd like to mention that the strongest reason I think NJAC is town is that his wagon literally materialised out of thin air right as the deadline was looming and nobody feels like stopping that wagon. It just makes me think NJAC is bait. He's both an easy mislynch and we'd gain very little new information from him if he flips town.- MiniDeathStar
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Fake scumhunting. If you're scum and you know someone isn't but want to lynch them, you have to make up reasons. I feel like this is what you've been doing for a good part of the game. "Pseudo OMGUS"? "Throwing shade"? What do these even mean?
You've been voting pretty much everybody this game. You FOSed Harkonnen and FancyPants. Then you made some weak case on Fire Assassin, then you abandoned it when nobody seemed interested. Then switched to Eager. Then to NJAC. Is that not a contradiction?
Your defence was literally "IDGAF about you". You never asked me what I thought was fake about you until I prompted you to.
You never addressed any of farside's concerns. She's been voting you the longest. Why are you ignoring her?
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Oh, more posts while I was typing. Okay so NOW you switched to eagerSnake once again? What the hell?- MiniDeathStar
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If you keep changing who you push all the time, your pushes become extremely ineffective. I think the town thing to do is pick someone and apply pressure until they give you reasons not to or until someone else starts looking scummier. But you've been flip-flopping all over the place, Gamma, and it looks incredibly oportunistic of you. Do you have any real fos at all, or are you just trying to save your hide right now by deflecting pressure?
Hi texcat. I think Harkonnen is town because he's grilling people, applying pressure and looking for information. He's also extremely reckless which I think scum are unlikely to be. Gamma doesn't do any of that. He's just quote-mining and ignoring questions until hard-pressed. I really don't like his reaction in his last post either. He isn't explaining what he wants to achieve, he's frustrated he's being called out.
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Sorry, you posted again while I was typing.
I know what OMGUS is. I don't think the "pseudo OMGUS" you pointed out was suspicious in and of itself. I also don't think those ad hominem attacks were really there. The bits you quoted were all like "I don't like this post." But guess what, you've done literally the same thing with your "this this this". If throwing shade is scummy, why are you scummy?
I'm sure you had your reasons to switch suspects. I just don't think they are very substantial reasons. Sheeping and feeling like it makes your own opinion incredibly weak. How is FA going to feel pressure from you if he knows you'll forget about him as soon as texcat says something again? How are you going to push on eagerSnake now that there's no chance for anything other than a "deadline wagon"? Did you ever suspect NJAC or was it all just a utility lynch for you?
Why do you not care about responding to farside? Do you think her reasons for suspecting you are invalid, or do you just not think you can persuade her?- MiniDeathStar
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Hark, if you think NJAC and Gamma might be scumpals, why are you opposed to Gamma's lynch? And please don't say meta. Meta isn't that strong of a tell.
NJAC, to be totally honest Harkonnen asked a very reasonable question. Why are you opposed to a vig-kill on Gamma? I'd pop him in a heartbeat regardless of your flip. This last post of yours felt really weird and is making me seriously reconsider my town read on you.
@Mod, if vig and scum shoot each other, do they both die?- MiniDeathStar
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Persuasive, but I'd think the scum would go for the claimed jailkeeper instead.In post 625, Harkonnen97 wrote:
unvote gamma or im not going to jailkeep you tonight and scum will kill u because ur slot is obvtown and generally townread by absolutely everyone.In post 621, MiniDeathStar wrote:I am not unvoting Gamma unless I have absolutely no choice.
Also your info was old. Gamma and NJAC both had 3 votes before you talked farside into switching.- MiniDeathStar
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That's my current view, yeah. But I think you're more dangerous than Eager because you talk more and have less overall suspicion on you. So I'm going with you first.In post 640, Gamma Emerald wrote:@MiniDeathStar you seem to be scumreading me and Eager. Is this correct?- MiniDeathStar
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Why is everybody ignoring the complete and total turnaround in attitude in both NJAC and Gamma Emerald? What's with the persephone wagon now? Didn't you all just say a new wagon was a bad idea a few hours ago? I'm really starting to understand why alban ragequit.
I'm staying with my Gamma vote, thankyouverymuch. The vig is going to have a busy few nights.- MiniDeathStar
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Why did you go from Gamma being 100% scum to being town to agreeing with him and following him?In post 716, NJAC wrote:
What exactly are you confused about? If you have some questions don't hesitate to ask.In post 712, MiniDeathStar wrote:I am really, really confused how NJAC and Gamma went from being sure the other is scum to completely sheeping each other in completely random directions.
Why did he do the same with you?- MiniDeathStar
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Elephant. Room. Etc etc.In post 722, Fire Assassin wrote:
A gamma lynch isn't going to happen today.In post 721, MiniDeathStar wrote:Why is everybody ignoringthe complete and total turnaround in attitude in both NJAC and Gamma Emerald?- MiniDeathStar
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I personally think Gamma is confirmed scum for opportunistically jumping on literally every major wagon, but okay. Let's go with that. I still think I'm with Harkonnen though. I don't have a lot of experience with scum replacing out for being scum.
I'll move my vote if someone other than Gamma decides the persephone lynch is a good lynch. But if she turns out town, please vig the hell out of Gamma.
Kop, Yuria, what do you think about all this?- MiniDeathStar
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I just meant that you NJAC and Gamma were the two biggest suspects a few pages ago. You were voting each other and calling for bigger wagons, then FancyPants said "I think Gamma's a VI" and suddenly both of you made a total turnaround, which seemed to go largely ignored by everybody else. That's why I bolded my question and mentioned the elephant in the room.In post 737, NJAC wrote:
Translation please.In post 724, MiniDeathStar wrote:Elephant. Room. Etc etc.
Forget about it for now, I don't want to dwell on it.
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FINE, OKAY.
VOTE: persephone325- MiniDeathStar
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I'm sorry if I'm bogging down the game, Fire Assassin. I'm just waiting to her from more people before I feel comfortable sheeping persephone. My scum read on her isn't strong enough to make me want to lynch her D1. It feels like NJAC all over again. Lurker, with very few posts, weak reads, getting mass-voted. If she's scum, okay, great. We can lynch her anytime, it's not like she's going to get less scummy and get away with it. But if she's town, how would her lynch help us in any way? I feel like all it would do is cast more suspicion on the people responsible for the wagon, which I already suspect anyway.
I reviewed Gamma's scum game and one of his town games. They don't feel that much different from each other or from what he's doing here? But I have to say he plays good scum. If he's scum now, it doesn't look to me like he's playing very well.
I was following this game before I replaced, because I was still waiting to play and wanted to get my sense of forum mafia back. Before farside replaced in and opened up her case on Gamma, he felt like obvious mafia pulling strings to me and I was baffled why nobody was seeing it and voting him. I wasn't part of the game then and so I didn't feel the need to take notes, but I remember I kept reading and waiting for someone to see what I was seeing. So maybe he *is* playing well after all.
So that's why I've been dead-set on lynching him so far and the only reason I'm second guessing myself right now is because nobody else (besides farside) is suspicious.
I'd really, really like to hear from Kop and Yuria at this point. It feels like the town is divided all over the place and the scum is leading the real lynches right now.- MiniDeathStar
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Fair enough. I agree with you, you should be having fun. I'm sorry this is how the game turned out.In post 804, Fire Assassin wrote:It's really not your fault MDS.
Well not only, this game is massive circle jerk that I am tired of taking part in.
Worst is the farside and NJAC back and forth from last page.
I don't care if I'm right anymore, I am not seeing how this game will be fun for me.
Vote who you want to MDS, I am not bullying anyone here. Vote who you think is right.
I don't know, Gamma, I'm not her lawyer. I think she just wasn't confident in her read and only voted Hark so that she's voting *someone* while making it clear her vote isn't set in stone. That's how it reads to me at least. I don't see scum intentions there.In post 805, Gamma Emerald wrote:
But why not vote in the post she expressed the scumread in?In post 803, MiniDeathStar wrote:Gamma, she feels like she's totally new to the game. I think she's just being super careful with her vote and afraid of lynching a townie.- MiniDeathStar
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I pieced the current top suspects together by ISOing all players in the game. I think texcat is interesting; suspected the most, not the current lynch candidate, but is voting the current lynch candidate. Also suspects a universal town read. Honestly this alone makes me think texcat is very probably the actual scum here.
@farside22: I wasn't comfortable with NJAC's wagon, and I'm not comfortable with Flubber's wagon either. I said a few times that I was pretty much bullied into voting him. I just didn't want to stall the game or play all by myself and disregard my town reads' arguments. But I've made up my mind now and I'm not lynching Flubber today unless he says something outrageously scummy.
My vote will probably go on texcat.- MiniDeathStar
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I don't think so. Especially if one of the town reads right now is actually an exceptionally blending scum. I always assume a risk of that.In post 890, FancyPants wrote:Or idk is it better to use Jailkeeper offensively even with three scum?- MiniDeathStar
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Gamma, that was before NJAC's attitude towards you went full circle. Until then I thought he was town and you were conveniently hopping on his wagon. But after that exchange, I'm considering the possibility NJAC could be scum who was buddying town you to bring you down with him after he managed to convince you of his innocence. If NJAC is indeed scum, you *might* still be town. If he's town, my scum read on you stays unchanged.- MiniDeathStar
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Then again, NJAC could also be extremely sloppy scum who incriminated you in his recklessness. I guess maybe "absolve" was a little too strong of a word. Still, I think if NJAC is scum I'll expand my horizons to other possible suspects.MiniDeathStar wrote:Gamma, that was before NJAC's attitude towards you went full circle. Until then I thought he was town and you were conveniently hopping on his wagon. But after that exchange, I'm considering the possibility NJAC could be scum who was buddying town you to bring you down with him after he managed to convince you of his innocence. If NJAC is indeed scum, you *might* still be town. If he's town, my scum read on you stays unchanged.- MiniDeathStar
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On the other hand, persephone could just have been super inexperienced townie and agreed with Kop because she thought he made sense. I think that's the simplest explanation.In post 897, farside22 wrote:
Perse post I linked, when I asked him about what he like about Kop post he replaced oit.
Add njac voting the counter wagon and consider me thrilled with my vote.
Also NJAC isn't the only one voting the counter wagon. Texcat is the strongest suspect right now.- MiniDeathStar
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Just sharing a few more thoughts in case I actually turn up dead tomorrow. If texcat is scum, here's a few things to consider:
- Why did some people, noticeably Gamma Emerald, townread her? (Moreover: what's up with the odd agreements between the two of them?)
- Why were Gamma and she both suspecting Fire Assassin when nobody else was?
- Why have certain people, noticeably eagerSnake, been digging at her from basically the beginning of the game?
- Why did she apparate from the void to push at the counterwagon? Trying for the towncredit or attempting to cause a mislynch that was "vetted" by the town reads? Meta her maybe.
If texcat is town:
- Why were certain people so sure she was town when she hadn't done absolutely anything helpful or made any effort to give reads or scumhunt?
- Do you think the scum were on her wagon? How many of them?
- Do you think her suspicions (particularly on Fire Assassin) had any merit to them? Could Fire be a master ruseman, or was texcat just mistaken?- MiniDeathStar
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Please claim if you're any power role. Mislynching for example the Jailkeeper (which I'm still not sure Harkonnen really is) gives the mafia some serious advantage.In post 906, texcat wrote:No thanks.
Also please tell us if you suspect anybody other than Fire Assassin and Flubbernugget. And who do you think is town?- MiniDeathStar
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Just a few more thoughts I wanted to share. If NJAC gets vigged tonight and is town:
- Really consider farside22 as a suspect. Something is just off about that lady. Meta her scum game with NJAC and see if he had reasons to suspect her.
- Analyse his wagon a little. I think before I derailed it it was a dangerous wagon and scum could have been opportunistic with it.
- Whoever is trusting Gamma right now, assume he's scum for a moment and read his exchange with NJAC where he went full circle on him.
If he's scum:
- Was he trying to incriminate Gamma by buddying up to him? Why was he pushing for his lynch, then changed his mind over 1 post by FancyPants? I had a detailed case on Gamma and NJAC seemed to trust me a lot on it, but as soon as Fancy said "VI" he totally made a U-turn. WHY.
- Why did he townread persephone/Flubbernugget and vote texcat?
- Why did Kop not want NJAC vigged?
Sorry if I'm rambling. This game is just super confusing right now. I want informationnnsss.- MiniDeathStar
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